The 2 major problems I have with the game today

[kris]

1. The "drawing contact" - drawing contact has evolved so much the players are sometimes going in the wrong direction when they make their move to the basket. A realistic solution to this isn't easy, but I'd suggest (hypothetically) the NBA tell players starting in the summer that non legitimate moves would be either a no call if contact was drawn or possibly an offensive foul.

I'm not sure of this but I think Barkley, Stockton, and then Duncan morphed the current NBA into a bunch of players looking for calls rather than a hoop.

Barkley used to get his layoffs up by jumping backwards with his butt into defenders until he cleared them out to get the hoop. Stockton was in a class all his own with his floating shots and moves that looked more like he was shooting the ball at your body rather than the basket. Duncan revolutionized flailing (sp?) your arms into anybody near you into a must call for the refs.

I know I didn't put a very good timeline in there, but you get the point. The game isn't played the same today and it's still good to watch, but I wish there would be less "drawing the contact" and more just driving or shooting the ball.

The new thing is for everybody (Kobe, Vince, etc) to start screaming any time they are defended. This needs to stop as it is getting to a gay point.

Ok so that was all 1.

2 is the charges. I don't have a problem with their being charging calls, but I do have a problem with a player running over as fast as he can to stand in front of a player going to the basket.

This isn't defense and it lets people like Steve Nash make "great plays" when all they really did was run and fall in front of someone. If you have position or someone bulls into you, that's fine for charging, but when a player runs 8 feet to go stand in front of someone and get knocked down, that isn't defense.

[samikeyp]

Good post Kris.

A Suns fan posted how the only "Manly" way to play defense was straight up with no tricks or gimmicks.

I think the same works here...AI is one of the worst. If no one touched you...don't act like you were just shot.

[dreamcastrocks]

1. The "drawing contact" - drawing contact has evolved so much the players are sometimes going in the wrong direction when they make their move to the basket. A realistic solution to this isn't easy, but I'd suggest (hypothetically) the NBA tell players starting in the summer that non legitimate moves would be either a no call if contact was drawn or possibly an offensive foul.

I'm not sure of this but I think Barkley, Stockton, and then Duncan morphed the current NBA into a bunch of players looking for calls rather than a hoop.

Barkley used to get his layoffs up by jumping backwards with his butt into defenders until he cleared them out to get the hoop. Stockton was in a class all his own with his floating shots and moves that looked more like he was shooting the ball at your body rather than the basket. Duncan revolutionized flailing (sp?) your arms into anybody near you into a must call for the refs.

I know I didn't put a very good timeline in there, but you get the point. The game isn't played the same today and it's still good to watch, but I wish there would be less "drawing the contact" and more just driving or shooting the ball.

The new thing is for everybody (Kobe, Vince, etc) to start screaming any time they are defended. This needs to stop as it is getting to a gay point.

Ok so that was all 1.

2 is the charges. I don't have a problem with their being charging calls, but I do have a problem with a player running over as fast as he can to stand in front of a player going to the basket.

This isn't defense and it lets people like Steve Nash make "great plays" when all they really did was run and fall in front of someone. If you have position or someone bulls into you, that's fine for charging, but when a player runs 8 feet to go stand in front of someone and get knocked down, that isn't defense.

Taking charges isn't defense?

Neither is a blocked shot. :rolleyes

[Amuseddaysleeper]

kris, interesting point on players running 8 feet to draw a charge, and normally I'd agree with you that it is kinda lame, but in today's game where the player with ball driving to the hoop has more power than ever, considering all the hand-checking that's been eliminated as well as the fact that the game isn't allowed to be nearly as rough as it used to be, I actually support the ability to draw charges by setting position before the player gets to the hoop, because really, these days the offensive player is given a free pass thanks to stern wanting to increase scoring.

[samikeyp]

I should have specified...I was speaking of being on offense.

I think taking charges is a good thing...although it is IMO not called consistently.

[kris]

Taking charges isn't defense?

Neither is a blocked shot. :rolleyes

1. I don't know why you bolded what you did

and

b) you didn't read everything I wrote. Answer me this, how is it defense to go run to a spot and fall down?

[kris]

kris, interesting point on players running 8 feet to draw a charge, and normally I'd agree with you that it is kinda lame, but in today's game where the player with ball driving to the hoop has more power than ever, considering all the hand-checking that's been eliminated as well as the fact that the game isn't allowed to be nearly as rough as it used to be, I actually support the ability to draw charges by setting position before the player gets to the hoop, because really, these days the offensive player is given a free pass thanks to stern wanting to increase scoring.

good counterpoint. Basketball is a pretty tough game to call because of the players strength and quickness. I hate how much Stern messes with the game to get more dollars, but I don't like these types of charges even more. I think the offensive players Stern Benefits (hand checking outlawed) could be better negated with my first complaint of getting less "drawn contact" fouls.

[dreamcastrocks]

1. I don't know why you bolded what you did

and

b) you didn't read everything I wrote. Answer me this, how is it defense to go run to a spot and fall down?

I meant to make a point about that, and I forgot. :lol

a) They changed the rulebook because of Barkley on this issue, and a couple of others. (including the 5 second backdown rule)

b) Allowing players to get a full head of steam into the other player who is stationary and in position before the offensive player to get there isn't a foul?

[kris]

I meant to make a point about that, and I forgot. :lol

a) They changed the rulebook because of Barkley on this issue, and a couple of others. (including the 5 second backdown rule)

b) Allowing players to get a full head of steam into the other player who is stationary and in position before the offensive player to get there isn't a foul?

Answering B:

Yes, it is. But, if I had my way, let's say Manu sees Amare Staudemire get the ball off a pick and roll at the free throw line and knows he will drive. So Manu races over from the corner and stands in front of the basket, outside the designated area and takes the charge - in my proposal this wouldn't be an offensive foul because Manu didn't really play any basketball defense (in my mind), he just ran and stood in front of someone.

[cly2tw]

Answering B:

Yes, it is. But, if I had my way, let's say Manu sees Amare Staudemire get the ball off a pick and roll at the free throw line and knows he will drive. So Manu races over from the corner and stands in front of the basket, outside the designated area and takes the charge - in my proposal this wouldn't be an offensive foul because Manu didn't really play any basketball defense (in my mind), he just ran and stood in front of someone.

That'd be smart bball defense, which is all about space and time. How else should you defend if not beating the opposing player to the spot? Really perplexed about you guys perception of the game. :rolleyes

[Cry Havoc]

Answering B:

Yes, it is. But, if I had my way, let's say Manu sees Amare Staudemire get the ball off a pick and roll at the free throw line and knows he will drive. So Manu races over from the corner and stands in front of the basket, outside the designated area and takes the charge - in my proposal this wouldn't be an offensive foul because Manu didn't really play any basketball defense (in my mind), he just ran and stood in front of someone.

When a player draws a charge, technically they are trying to to guard a player that is out of control. The problem is that officials are so happy to call the bucket and the foul these days that players have to make it absolutely obvious that the play is a charge, or they get whistled.

I'd like to see more offensive fouls called for being out of control and less called because the defender had to camp out under the hoop and remains completely motionless while someone barrels into him. If you're an offensive player and you initiate physical contact beyond a light touch that puts a defender out of position, it should immediately be called. And it just isn't today.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

On your two points:

1) Offensive players drawing contact:

Actually this is no-called most of the time, if the defender has legitimate position and the offensive player bumps him on the way up. Watch and you'll see. I think the refs have a decent handle on this. If the defender does impede the shooter, a foul is called.

2) Charges:

Defense is mostly about moving your feet and being in the right position. If you can get in the right position, and the offensive player chooses to try to go through you, it is an offensive foul. I can't see how you can argue this. If this were not true, it'd be football, not basketball.

Now, if you are on help defense, and you choose to get to a spot so that the offensive player you are helping on has to either change direction or stop to avoid going through you, how is that not defense? I think it's exactly what defense is all about -- getting to the right position by moving your feet.

The NBA did address this by bringing in the "restricted zone" -- so if you are on help defense, you have to get outside the zone -- you can't just meet the man at the basket. I think that's a great compromise for the NBA game where players are massive and fast.

[GrandeDavid]

kris, you make some good points. I'm all for ending of the flailing and bitching to refs, but I'm not sure I agree with you on the charge. Hell, if a guy is smart and quick enough to cut off a drive, even running over from the wing, then that's a great defensive play.

[MannyIsGod]

I agree one hundred percent. Driving to the hoop and jumping to the side merely to draw contact is pretty much BS IMO. How you left Allen Iverson off the list of people who do that I don't know considering he's the king of doing it, but I don't like it either. I can live with it to some degree, though. I don't mind a defense player making contact in order to overpower a shot blocker (most penetrators do this) I just don't want to see it called a foul.

The offensive foul bullshit is really annoying me now. It is one thing to be standing before someone gets to a spot but half the time these guys have their feet in place but their body is still in motion and they always get the call now. The charge call has really degenerated to the point where as long as you're out of the semi circle and you're feet are in place you are likely going to get the call. The lack of consistency on that call really sucks too. The division between a charge and a block in that situation is paper thin and really depends on who is calling the game. Something needs to be done.

[mabber]

On your two points:

1) Offensive players drawing contact:

Actually this is no-called most of the time, if the defender has legitimate position and the offensive player bumps him on the way up. Watch and you'll see. I think the refs have a decent handle on this. If the defender does impede the shooter, a foul is called.

2) Charges:

Defense is mostly about moving your feet and being in the right position. If you can get in the right position, and the offensive player chooses to try to go through you, it is an offensive foul. I can't see how you can argue this. If this were not true, it'd be football, not basketball.

Now, if you are on help defense, and you choose to get to a spot so that the offensive player you are helping on has to either change direction or stop to avoid going through you, how is that not defense? I think it's exactly what defense is all about -- getting to the right position by moving your feet.

The NBA did address this by bringing in the "restricted zone" -- so if you are on help defense, you have to get outside the zone -- you can't just meet the man at the basket. I think that's a great compromise for the NBA game where players are massive and fast.

I guess you didn't watch Reggie Miller play much. He perfected the leg kick move during his jump shots. He'd go up to shoot a jumper and kick his leg toward the defender to draw contact. The refs would call the foul on the defender all the time. I still see players use this move and get calls from it.

[AZLouis]

Answering B:

Yes, it is. But, if I had my way, let's say Manu sees Amare Staudemire get the ball off a pick and roll at the free throw line and knows he will drive.

We already know what he'll do. He'll grab Amare's leg and prevent him rolling. :spin

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Back on topic:

I think that's why the NBA instituted that little circle rule about players not being allowed to be inside of it and draw a charge. It helps combat the rule as the players can't just camp out underneath and draw charges all of the time.

IMO there really wouldn't be a clear way to draw a new rule about taking charges. If you take away the ability for a defender to "help" it might actually stop players from wanting to help on defense rather than taking a charge.

[Mixability]

:tu :tu :tu :tu :tu

Growing up, I don't really remember this many charges and flopping.

I admit, I get pissed off when Manu flops and the other 4 guys are running around trying to cover the open man. I've yelled "stop flopping, just play D!" too much this year. Last game, Horry and Oberto gave up And 1's because they just had to try and draw an offensive foul.

I think, if you've already been beat to the basket, why try and risk giving up a free throw and getting in foul trouble. There are instances when charges must be called, when its a blatant drop of the shoulder into someone's chest or someone is clearing out with their elbow on the low post. But all the flopping HAS to go.

There's just alot of pussy calls nowadays and players want a foul called if they get breathed on. I long for the days when a defender would go up for a "get that shit out of here" block on a dunk attempt, but nowadays, most people are playing "your nuts are on my chin, but I'll get the charge" defense. :pctoss