Discrepancy in All-NBA voting?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I glanced over the TD 1st Team thread and didn't see any reference, so if I missed it, go ahead and merge, but this is interesting.

Via TrueHoop

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All-NBA Voting Weirdness

May 11, 2007 11:10 AM

Brian Windhorst of the Akron Beacon-Journal was wondering how it is that LeBron James was not a first-team all-NBA player. He inspected the votes a little, and found clear evidence that all kinds of voters defied the NBA's instruction to not vote players onto the team out of position (it's a weird rule anyway, but there you go, it's in bold and underlined on the instructions).

But that's not the end of the world, I guess. But can anyone else verify this ... which sounds most odd?

Stoudemire got 36 first-place votes and, says the release, 494 overall points. This is mathematically impossible. See, 36 first-place votes X 5 points each = 180 points. Then let's just assume Stoudemire was second on every other ballot (which is impossible because I personally put him on the third team, but anyway) so say he's got 93 second-place votes. That's 93 second-place votes X 3 points each = 279. Add up the points: 180 + 279 = 459. 459 is the max he can have. The 494 points reported, though, is exactly the same as LeBron's total. Which seems a bit odd/fishy. But Stoudemire doesn't have to out vote LeBron for the team, just the other centers.

I can only assume this was a clerical error. At least I really hope so, otherwise there's some funny business going on. According to reader Alan Dail, who actually added up all the possible points across the board, there's 145 too many. Take away those excess 145 from Stoudemire's total and everything seems to jive and he edges Yao Ming on the first team. Or maybe he doesn't. Hmmmm...

I'm not smart enough to figure out if that makes sense or not. So get your calculators out! Here are the rules, from the NBA:

The 129-member voting panel of writers and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada consisted of national media members and members from each of the league's 30 teams who regularly cover the NBA. The media voted for All-NBA First, Second and Third Teams by position with points awarded on a 5-3-1 basis.

And here are the vote totals, also from the NBA:

FIRST TEAM
Position, Player, 1st Team Votes, Points
Forward, Nowitzki, 125, 634
Forward, Duncan, 94, 573
Center, Stoudemire, 36, 494
Guard, Nash, 129, 645
Guard, Bryant, 128, 643

SECOND TEAM
Position, Player, 1st Team Votes, Points
Forward, James, 64, 494
Forward, Bosh, 8, 234
Center Yao, 38, 333
Guard, Arenas, 0, 295
Guard, McGrady, 10, 278

THIRD TEAM
Position, Player, 1st Team Votes, Points
Forward, Garnett, 5, 225
Forward, Anthony, 1, 142
Center, Howard, 1, 108
Guard, Wade, 1, 241
Guard, Billups, 0, 86

Other players receiving votes, with point totals (first team votes in parentheses): Carlos Boozer, Utah, 127; Shaquille O'Neal, Miami, 70 (3); Jason Kidd, New Jersey, 58; Marcus Camby, Denver, 42 (2); Shawn Marion, Phoenix, 41; Allen Iverson, Denver, 39; Tony Parker, San Antonio, 39; Vince Carter, New Jersey, 15; Deron Williams, Utah, 15; Josh Howard, Dallas, 11; Elton Brand, L.A. Clippers, 8; Mehmet Okur, Utah, 7; Baron Davis, Golden State, 6; Michael Redd, Milwaukee, 6; Ray Allen, Seattle, 5; Richard Hamilton, Detroit, 4; Joe Johnson, Atlanta, 3; Ben Gordon, Chicago, 3; Chris Paul, New Orleans/Oklahoma City, 3; Paul Pierce, Boston, 2; Ben Wallace, Chicago, 2; Jason Terry, Dallas, 2; Eddy Curry, New York, 2; Luol Deng, Chicago, 1; Chris Webber, Detroit, 1; Jermaine O'Neal, Indiana, 1; Pau Gasol, Memphis, 1; Tyson Chandler, New Orleans/Oklahoma City, 1; Manu Ginobili, San Antonio, 1.

TrueHoop (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-24-55/All-NBA-Voting-Weirdness.html?post=true)

Windhorst @ the Beacon-Journal (http://blogs.ohio.com/cavaliers_blog/2007/05/allnba_first_te.html)

[Obstructed_View]

I'm shocked that anyone would vote for Amare for first team.

[greywheel]

If the vote as supposed to be by position, why is there only about 80 first place votes for centers? There should be 129.
There are 645 (129*5) first place votes listed.
A lot of people consider Duncan a center, maybe he should be the Center on the first team with Lebron at forward?

[FromWayDowntown]

If the vote as supposed to be by position, why is there only about 80 first place votes for centers? There should be 129.
There are 645 (129*5) first place votes listed.
A lot of people consider Duncan a center, maybe he should be the Center on the first team with Lebron at forward?

Amare, Yao, Shaq, and Camby split 79 First Team votes at the center spot -- and that's assuming that all of Amare's First Team votes were for him as a center. At best, the voting is 50 short in terms of obvious First Team votes at the center spot.

I suspect that Tim got some first place votes at center and that some of the voters also gave first place center votes to Dirk.

There is something fishy going on here, though. I don't think it's anything sinister, but I'm fairly certain that there's something afoot.

[Tippecanoe]

the only award I trust is the Finals MVP

[Rummpd]

Poor LeBron guess he is still a prince rather than a king?

[ploto]

I am certain that some voters put Duncan at center on their ballots because some members of the media who wrote about their choices listed Duncan at center. Seems to me that if the rules state you must vote by position that only the votes cast for the player AT that position would count.

I remember several who listed: Duncan, Dirk, Le Bron, Kobe and Nash.

[sunsbum]

I'm shocked that anyone would vote for Amare for first team.
:cry

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

I don't even trust that. In 2005 it should have been Manu or at least split between Manu and Duncan!



looking back, glad Manu didn't win it




his shit play the next 2 post seasons confirmed it was a fluke

[gaKNOW!blee]

I don't even trust that. In 2005 it should have been Manu or at least split between Manu and Duncan!

no, it shouldnt of.

[BigBeezie]

Boozer over Amare just baffles me.

Here's how it should have read:

NBA 1st Team:

Tim Duncan F/C
Carlos Boozer F
Lebron James F
Kobe Bryant G
Steve Nash G

[Spurminator]

This is how I would have picked them.

Nash
TMac
Duncan
Nowitzki
Boozer

Kobe
Arenas
James
Stoudemire
Howard

Billups
Wade
Anthony
Bosh
Yao

[Obstructed_View]

:cry
You're crying because I have an opinion? Stop being such a puss.

[sunsbum]

You're crying because I have an opinion? Stop being such a puss.


no, im implying that youre a whiny little bitch...im sorry the picture with YOUR caption wasnt clear enough for you. :clap :elephant :downspin:

[Obstructed_View]

no, im implying that youre a whiny little bitch...im sorry the picture with YOUR caption wasnt clear enough for you. :clap :elephant :downspin:
I simply stated my opinion that Amare doesn't deserve to be on the first team, and a mistake in calculating the votes is a fairly logical explanation for his getting there. I'm sorry that you get your little homer panties in a bunch about someone daring to state an opinion on a discussion forum. :rolleyes

[greywheel]

Update on the original blog linked in the first post.


UPDATE: Talked to the NBA, and the story is not nearly as exciting as it first seemed. Amare Stoudemire's correct point total is 351, which changes nothing in the standings. It was an error of the press release, not the actual tally, and they have indeed corrected in where the press release is online.

[Obstructed_View]

So it's just stupidity on the part of the voters that Amare made the first team, then. Not surprising, since they whiffed on MVP the last two years. At least this season they got it right.

[da_suns_fan__]

Oh well Obstructed view. Guess the Suns just truly are the media darling.

What do you expect when they are being touted as the NBA's "SAVIOUR"???

Hopefully, the Suns will win it all and bring basketball back to where it was in the early nineties.

Im not sure the NBA could survive another finals with the Spurs.

[Obstructed_View]

Oh well Obstructed view. Guess the Suns just truly are the media darling.

What do you expect when they are being touted as the NBA's "SAVIOUR"???

Hopefully, the Suns will win it all and bring basketball back to where it was in the early nineties.

Im not sure the NBA could survive another finals with the Spurs.
Um, considering the individual awards they win every single year, plus all the players sent to the all-star game, especially in relation to their postseason success, how could you conclude anything other than media obsession?

As a Suns fan, you'd certainly better hope that a combination of media pressure, whining about officiating and the NBA's fear of the Spurs in the finals comes to some fruition, because otherwise your team is going to be watching the rest of the playoffs from home. Or in your case, not watching, since good team basketball on both ends of the floor isn't worth your time.

[JMarkJohns]

Um, considering the individual awards they win every single year, plus all the players sent to the all-star game, especially in relation to their postseason success, how could you doubt anything other than media obsession?

I will admit that Phoenix gets more fair treatment than poor from the media. You'd have to be a fool not to see and admit such.

BUT...

They have only the three All-Stars on their team, the same three, one in Nash, the best offensive PG in the NBA, Marion, a 20-10 machine who leads the team in steals and blocks as well, and Amare, a beast down low who's averaged over 20 points and 9 rebounds the last four years.

Nash had been an All-Star prior to Phoenix and Marion had been an All-Star prior to Nash arriving in Phoenix, so it's not exactly that the two can't be such without each other. Amare was Rookie of the Year pre-Nash as well. So each received plenty of honors before they had even played a game together, or in D'Antoni's system.

I know said system gets plenty of credit, maybe too much, maybe not enough, but how is it fair to diminish the success of players within a system that not every player can play in? It does require a certain amount of skill and athleticm. The combination isn't necessarily easy to find.

As for implying Amare doesn't deserve 1st-Team votes, well, may I ask for whom you'd vote? It has to be a center, not a PF voted in at center like a Duncan or Boozer.

If you vote Yao, note that Amare played in all 82 games while Yao played in just 48. While Yao certainly was the better scorer and shot-blocker, when healthy, Amare out-rebounded him, generated more steals and shot a better percentage from the field.

In fact, the only areas Amare didn't improve from his last healthy regular season was scoring (down 5.4 points), blocks (down 0.3) and assists (down 0.6). He improved in FG% (up 1.6%), FT% (up 4.8%), rebounds (up 0.7). He held steady at 1.0 steals per game.

If close to or exactly half his numbers improved from his last All-NBA 1st team honor, and he played in 35 more games than his closest competition at the position, then why can't the voters recognize him as deserving, but not unquestionably deserving? Why can't the voters be split? It's not like he's a bum?

If it's because you don't deem him skilled enough, what criteria is said assumption based upon?

Not knowing what I know now (the games Yao missed), I'd have probably voted Yao 1st team had I a vote. In fact, I think I voted Duncan at center and two other forwards in one thread floating around here, so, I'm hardly someone who's biased to a fault.

Again, I just don't see how you can have such a concrete opinion on a player who has improved from year to year despite some terrible setbacks, and who has become a steadying and impactful force down low for the Suns.

Amare is merrely averaging 24 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 2.0 bpg, 1.4 spg on 52% FG and 74% FT in these playoffs. His first two games against San Antonio follow a similar average.

He's a much better all-around player than you're giving him credit for. Not a good man-to-man defender, but how many post players do a good job on Duncan? Rasheed? Is that it? I mean, Thomas did great and Duncan still got 30-10 vs. him.


As a Suns fan, you'd certainly better hope that a combination of media pressure, whining about officiating and the NBA's fear of the Spurs in the finals comes to some fruition, because otherwise your team is going to be watching the rest of the playoffs from home. Or in your case, not watching, since good team basketball on both ends of the floor isn't worth your time.

Yeah, because said combination is the only way Phoenix could ever win this series. I'll admit they have less than 50% chance right now thanks to losing homecourt, but your players are still going to have to show up and win this.

I like the Spurs, and I like many of the fans, but many times the elitist attitude towards other teams and other team's players is hard to swallow.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Update on the original blog linked in the first post.

Thanks. I hadn't had a chance to look at TrueHoop anymore today.

[Obstructed_View]

As for implying Amare doesn't deserve 1st-Team votes, well, may I ask for whom you'd vote? It has to be a center, not a PF voted in at center like a Duncan or Boozer.
May I ask why? Unless I'm mistaken, there's no requirement for that. McGrady was voted in as a guard in 2003 (despite playing most of the season as a forward) and there was therefore no point guard on the first team. There was also no center on the second team in 2002. If Yao didn't play in enough games to qualify, then I have no problem with someone calling Duncan a center and voting James into a forward spot. There's certainly a bigger difference between Tracy McGrady and the point guard position than there is between Carlos Boozer and the center position.

I'm very impressed with Amare's comeback, and if he could keep his mouth shut, he'd be one of my favorite players, but I'm not going to just quash my opinion that I was shocked to see him on the first team just because the Spurs happen to be playing the Suns.




Yeah, because said combination is the only way Phoenix could ever win this series. I'll admit they have less than 50% chance right now thanks to losing homecourt, but your players are still going to have to show up and win this.
Yeah, teams that don't show up don't win very often. The Spurs still haven't played worth a crap in the playoffs, yet they stole home court.


I like the Spurs, and I like many of the fans, but many times the elitist attitude towards other teams and other team's players is hard to swallow.
I want to like the Suns, and I want to like their fans, but they come in here and defend each other like a little gang and get their asses in the air if someone dares to state an opinion they don't like. It's really sad that the new Suns trolls have spread their crap to some of the old vets who should know better.

[confined]

Boozer over Amare just baffles me.

Here's how it should have read:

NBA 1st Team:

Tim Duncan F/C
Carlos Boozer F
Lebron James F
Kobe Bryant G
Steve Nash G
no way in hell should boozer be on the first team over dirk

[kyle macy]

Amare didn't want to play center, he always claimed he was a PF, but now with Shaq in the East, how can you argue another player as a starter on the All NBA team? I am not as familiar with Duncan as you guys are, but I have always wondered why he wasn't listed at C more. If both played C, I could see the argument for leaving Amare off the list, but certainly not for Boozer.

[JMarkJohns]

May I ask why? Unless I'm mistaken, there's no requirement for that. McGrady was voted in as a guard in 2003 (despite playing most of the season as a forward) and there was therefore no point guard on the first team. There was also no center on the second team in 2002. If Yao didn't play in enough games to qualify, then I have no problem with someone calling Duncan a center and voting James into a forward spot. There's certainly a bigger difference between Tracy McGrady and the point guard position than there is between Carlos Boozer and the center position.

I'm very impressed with Amare's comeback, and if he could keep his mouth shut, he'd be one of my favorite players, but I'm not going to just quash my opinion that I was shocked to see him on the first team just because the Spurs happen to be playing the Suns.

That's fair. Like I said, I'd done similar. Duncan, Dirk, and prolly James from me.

I share your sentiment on Amare and his mouth. Unfortunately, it's part of the package and the same motor that fuels him on the court extends off it and this is just one of the unfortunate byproducts.


Yeah, teams that don't show up don't win very often. The Spurs still haven't played worth a crap in the playoffs, yet they stole home court.


I never questioned the Spurs ability to win this series, but many fans here are already certain this series is over. Some were certain before it had even started. While it's looking better for San Antonio than Phoenix right now, series have a funny way of changing suddenly. I know everyone expects these Suns to lay down the way the 2005 Suns did, but I can attest that these Suns are nothing like those Suns and the attitude in their locker room after the game one loss was more of anger than disappointment.

For me, that's huge. I want them to get mad and take back homecourt. They can do it. They always could. They just never had the mentality to permit such, perhaps even being psyched out because it's the Spurs?


I want to like the Suns, and I want to like their fans, but they come in here and defend each other like a little gang and get their asses in the air if someone dares to state an opinion they don't like. It's really sad that the new Suns trolls have spread their crap to some of the old vets who should know better.

Sometimes it's not that they disagree with the opinion, only the condescending way in which it's presented, or the absolutes with no basis. Had your initial post said what your last one said, I'm not responding, because I agree.

I think Amare was probably deserving as any other center in the NBA, but if it's strictly the best five, then he's probably no better than third team. He's certainly not better than Boozer.

[Obstructed_View]

I never questioned the Spurs ability to win this series, but many fans here are already certain this series is over. Some were certain before it had even started. While it's looking better for San Antonio than Phoenix right now, series have a funny way of changing suddenly. I know everyone expects these Suns to lay down the way the 2005 Suns did, but I can attest that these Suns are nothing like those Suns and the attitude in their locker room after the game one loss was more of anger than disappointment.
You can attest all you wish, but it's disingenuous of you to imply that the Suns quit in that series. They were a very good team that got their asses handed to them by a better team. You should be proud of their performance in game 4 because they played great, winning the game on a great defensive play. The Spurs are more than capable of falling asleep and pissing away the playoffs in relatively short order. Any Spurs fan that was watching as recently as 2004 should know that. I still believe that the defensive team can dictate the tempo of the game if they choose, and the Suns are at a disadvantage in that case just as they were in 2005. The Spurs are out of sync and the Suns should take advantage of that as long as they can. If the Spurs keep sleepwalking through this series they stand an excellent chance of going back to Phoenix tied or in a hole.


Sometimes it's not that they disagree with the opinion, only the condescending way in which it's presented, or the absolutes with no basis. Had your initial post said what your last one said, I'm not responding, because I agree.
My original post was that I was surprised that anyone would vote for Amare for first team, considering that it's just a technicality of his position that gets him in, and I was downright shocked that he would actually MAKE the first team. I must confess that I don't quite know how to present evidence that I was surprised. I then got called a crybaby by a Suns fan who has been here all of a week. Are you really all that surprised that I went back and said that the voters are idiots just to irritate him? Haven't you been here long enough to recognize what I was doing? Someone that gets pissed off that I dare to express an opinion about a player on his team isn't someone you should feel the need to defend.

[JMarkJohns]

You can attest all you wish, but it's disingenuous of you to imply that the Suns quit in that series. They were a very good team that got their asses handed to them by a better team. You should be proud of their performance in game 4 because they played great, winning the game on a great defensive play. The Spurs are more than capable of falling asleep and pissing away the playoffs in relatively short order. Any Spurs fan that was watching as recently as 2004 should know that. I still believe that the defensive team can dictate the tempo of the game if they choose, and the Suns are at a disadvantage in that case just as they were in 2005. The Spurs are out of sync and the Suns should take advantage of that as long as they can. If the Spurs keep sleepwalking through this series they stand an excellent chance of going back to Phoenix tied or in a hole.

My point was late in games, the 2005 Suns faded. It was largely the Spurs, but the Suns youth and inexperience factored in. These Suns have more experience thanks to that year's and last year's run. They know more, know how to handle more. That year it was run-n-gun or bust. This year they can actually make adjustments if they can't win their way.

When I said they rolled over, I merely meant they were a one-trick pony and if said trick didn't work, they faded and did so farely quickly most times.


My original post was that I was surprised that anyone would vote for Amare for first team, considering that it's just a technicality of his position that gets him in, and I was downright shocked that he would actually MAKE the first team. I must confess that I don't quite know how to present evidence that I was surprised. I then got called a crybaby by a Suns fan who has been here all of a week. Are you really all that surprised that I went back and said that the voters are idiots just to irritate him? Haven't you been here long enough to recognize what I was doing? Someone that gets pissed off that I dare to express an opinion about a player on his team isn't someone you should feel the need to defend.


You're response to sunsbum is just fine with me. I have no qualms about the posters here taking the newbies, many who think they can come in, make silly comments, whine, bitch, moan, call other posters out and the like without getting grief.

I wasn't defending him at all. Merely Amare as a player, mostly an improved all-around player who deserved credit for such without always being lumped in as a system/Nash beneficiary, and also to point out that this series isn't over just yet. They are in better shape than they were in 2005, so while the Spurs (and their fans) should be confident, in no way should they say the Suns haven't a chance unless the NBA conspires to get them in.

Amare/Suns. Them's my gripes. You bitching out a newbie didn't even factor in. I was treated much, much worse initially. This is a kinder, gentler Spurstalk. They've had to get used to all the opposition fans on the board. In 2005 when I joined, I was but one of three or four Suns fans, and maybe 20-to-25 opposition fans here. Now, each team has a dozen or so, many being just annoying.

Phoenix does whine too much, it's players and coach do need to shut up, the Suns aren't great yet, just a very good team bordering on greatness, but they'll need to win the West before greatness can be granted, and the Spurs are a great team, having three Titles to their name, and enough if "it" to add a fourth this year, if they manage to get past the Suns.

Them's my takes.

[Dave McNulla]

if you add the first place votes up and divide by 5, you get 129. if you look up a bunch of the players, you'll see f/c or g/f. how can you not get to decide which they are for the vote if it's going to be like that? i can remember dirk going to the all-star game as a reserve over david robinson when shaq dropped out (yao was the first place vote getter). if they say dirk is a center for the asg, why not dirk or duncan for all-nba?