Marc Stein weighs in

[Xylus]

Suns Rise When Nash Falls

Marc Stein
ESPN.com

SAN ANTONIO -- You can't exactly call it the sweetest possible revenge. Steve Nash still needs two more wins over the Spurs for that . . . as well as the knowledge that Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw won't be suspended for Game 5.

But this?

Pretty high up there on the sweet meter.

Nash answered that knee to the groin from Bruce Bowen and his coach's calls for some over-the-hump, breakthrough toughness in the manner he would have scripted if he could have: With a steely fourth quarter, namely, that willed these Suns to the biggest victory they've ever recorded and a simple toss of the ball to referee Steve Javie at the final buzzer to cap it.

There's a reason Nash is the only Sun who has consistently refused to voice any public frustration with the Spurs' handsy defense in the first three games of this second-round showdown: That's how his soccer-playing English father raised him. When you're being kicked, John Nash always taught his son, you make the guy kicking you think you're drinking tea.

That was Nash on Monday night. He finally lost his cool after Robert Horry hip-checked him into the scorer's table in the final minute -- "It's hard, I guess, to always take the high road and turn the other cheek," Nash admitted afterward -- but only after he had spent the rest of the evening by dribbling through every barrier and spurring Phoenix to a series-tying 104-98 triumph in San Antonio.

Six immediate reactions to a heating-up series that will now go at least six games:

• First things first, since it's obviously what everyone wants to know about: The suspension question. By the letter of the law, Stoudemire and Boris Diaw have to be hit with one-game suspensions for leaving the bench after Horry cracked Nash. This is a virtually iron-clad NBA rule, except for the time back in 2002 that Doug Christie was attacked in the tunnel by Rick Fox in a Lakers-Kings exhibition game and several Kings players left the bench to assist him. The league ruled that time that no one, in the heat of the moment, knew exactly who Christie was tangling with, resulting in some unexpected pardons. In this case, Stoudemire clearly strayed into the court for a brief moment and even Suns coach Mike D'Antoni couldn't stifle a postgame laugh when Phoenix tried to suggest that Stoudemire was heading to the scorer's table to check in after the foul.

However . . .

Stoudemire and Diaw never made it near the scrum, as Suns assistant coaches scrambled them back to the bench. Nor did Monday's incident ever become an actual brawl, with referees Joe DeRosa and Javie getting between Nash and Horry before it could escalate. There is also a growing perception, most of all, that Bowen was shown a good deal of leniency by the league office after being accused of intentionally kicking a dunking Stoudemire in Game 2 and kneeing Nash in Game 3 . . . and going unpunished in both cases. Doesn't the league have to balance that against the notion of "staying consistent" on leaving-the-bench suspensions?

"That would be terrible if that silly play at the end of a game, when the game is really over, if that causes a detriment to the rest of the series," Nash said afterward. "That would be ridiculous."

He then tacked on a pretty shrewd argument about literal interpretations when he pointed out that cheering subs technically leave the bench when they stray onto the court to celebrate big plays.

• The above bit of sharpness from Nash can't surprise you if you watched the way he finished this Game 4. As good as you can look when you finish with eight turnovers, that was Nash in the final period, highlighted by the tidy dropoff to Raja Bell and subsequent screen that sent Bell in for an uncontested layup and then the behind-the-back specials with each hand to set up Stoudemire for the two biggest hoops in crunch time. You can pardon the turnovers and Nash's two late missed free throws when you factor in how much he created for his team -- especially at the finish -- in a 24-point, 15-assist performance.

• Spurs coach Gregg Popovich opened himself to some rare big-time criticism by keeping Tim Duncan on the bench too long after Duncan picked up his fifth foul with just over six minutes to play. Don't you let a wily veteran like Duncan play more with five fouls? Stoudemire has been ragged in this series for his occasional lack of playoff savvy but did pretty well with five fouls, lasting all the way to the end and finishing with 26 points. With all the trouble San Antonio had getting scoring from anyone else when it mattered, Duncan needed to be out there sooner.

• Even more inexplicable is the Horry hip check. He is known as perhaps the greatest role player of all-time, as Big Shot Rob, as a longtime class act. Perhaps my memory is failing me at a late hour, but I'm struggling to remember a cheap shot from Horry's past . . . apart from that towel he tossed in Danny Ainge's face when Ainge was coaching him years ago. With an elbow aimed at Bell during the ensuing pushing and shoving, Horry could be looking at a multi-game suspension.

• Was this the Suns' breakthrough moment? Not sure yet. We'll only know for sure if the Suns can actually win what now becomes a best-of-three, with Phoenix possessing home-court advantage. Just don't forget that San Antonio was down 3-1 to Dallas in this same round last year and would have won that series if Dirk Nowitzki hadn't snatched Game 7 from them. The Spurs are more than capable of winning another game in the desert.

That said . . .

If there's such a thing as a 2-2 lead, it looks like Phoenix has one after this grittier-than-ever comeback. The Suns got stops in the fourth quarter. They had plenty of chances to fold and hung in instead. As D'Antoni noted, Shawn Marion was a one-man defensive wall in the fourth, with a few timely double-teams thrown at Duncan -- the first we've seen from Phoenix -- to slow the hosts down.

• Oh, yeah: The Suns just saved the whole second round with their rally. We'd be looking at four separate 3-1 series if the Spurs hadn't relinquished control of Game 4. Now we're looking at a good 24 hours of debate about what kind of punishments we should and will see . . . and what should be a pretty tasty Game 5 on Wednesday.

[Kori Ellis]

The Suns just saved the whole second round with their rally. We'd be looking at four separate 3-1 series if the Spurs hadn't relinquished control of Game 4.
:pctoss

[Trainwreck2100]

He then tacked on a pretty shrewd argument about literal interpretations when he pointed out that cheering subs technically leave the bench when they stray onto the court to celebrate big plays.


thats why the rule says altercation

[baseline bum]

Rob's the only one who deserves a suspension. He started this shit.

[Trainwreck2100]

Rob's the only one who deserves a suspension. He started this shit.


Diaw deserves it cause one of those morons should get the axe for being stupid, i'd rather it be him since he less important

[bobbyjoe]

This series is the NBA Finals. No disrespect to Detroit or Utah (but disrespet is intended to CLE-NJ).

I really hope the NBA uses this incident as a chance to kill what is just a ridiculous rule. It'd be pretty sad to see that the "letter of the law" means more to David Stern that great basketball and common sense and being reasonable. Really hope there are no suspensions, even to Horry.

It'd be fun to watch the increased intensity in the series if Horry is still on the Court on Game 5. I agree that Bowen was given quite a bit of latitude, but then so should Horry because he's been in the league 15 yrs and hasnt been involved in many incidents like this. It was an aberration. If he does it 10-15 times like Bowen, then yeah, we'll say he's dirty but that's not the case.

BTW, the league is also reviewing Baron Davis' incident with Fisher. Suspending him would be pretty crazy too and make Game 5 awfully boring. Unless you do something just ridiculous in the playoffs, you shouldn't be suspended.

[Trainwreck2100]

Horry's gone, they can't ignore two rules. Which they;d do if nobody got suspended

[baseline bum]

Artest got suspended for nothing last year. I think it's pretty obvious that Horry's not going to be in America West Wednesday. Sucks, because Elson can't replace what Rob can do for this team.

[Xylus]

Horry's gone, they can't ignore two rules. Which they;d do if nobody got suspended
They make the rules, they can break them if it benefits the league to do so. They aren't violating the U.S. constitution here if they allow Stoudemire and Horry to play in Game 5.

[bobbyjoe]

Why not a suspension for JRich then on the Okur open field tackle? Same type of play as context as Rob's foul, no?

[Gaddabout]

I agree that Bowen was given quite a bit of latitude, but then so should Horry because he's been in the league 15 yrs and hasnt been involved in many incidents like this. It was an aberration. If he does it 10-15 times like Bowen, then yeah, we'll say he's dirty but that's not the case.

Suns fans are still pretty bitter at Horry for throwing a towel at Danny Ainge's face. Honestly? I sort of relished the moment, because I never liked Ainge, not even as a Suns player and coach. Me and Horry were on the same page for that one. But Horry is not popular in Phoenix and it's always been presented as Horry being a bad attitude kind of player. I do think he's capable of losing his otherwise cool head at the wrong moments, but his performance in late moments is so legendary, no one really remembers when he wasn't cool under pressure.

[slayermin]

"Our rule regarding an automatic suspension for players leaving the bench was not intended to apply in a highly unusual situation like this one, where an altercation occurs in an access tunnel or hallway,'' NBA vice president Stu Jackson said. "In this circumstance, our judgment was that the players who left the bench were attempting to break up the fight and did not escalate the altercation.''

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2002/1028/1452258.html

Is this altercation a highly unusual situation?

I don't want suspensions but if they happen, cie la vie.

[Trainwreck2100]

"Our rule regarding an automatic suspension for players leaving the bench was not intended to apply in a highly unusual situation like this one, where an altercation occurs in an access tunnel or hallway,'' NBA vice president Stu Jackson said. "In this circumstance, our judgment was that the players who left the bench were attempting to break up the fight and did not escalate the altercation.''

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2002/1028/1452258.html

Is this altercation a highly unusual situation?

I don't want suspensions but if they happen, cie la vie.


Stein already explained the reasoning those players got off was because they didn't know that Christy was being attacked by Fox and not a fan. so they went to see what happened. I can't see theme getting off that easily this wsn't unusual, guy commits flagrant people get pissed.

[Xylus]

"Our rule regarding an automatic suspension for players leaving the bench was not intended to apply in a highly unusual situation like this one, where an altercation occurs in an access tunnel or hallway,'' NBA vice president Stu Jackson said. "In this circumstance, our judgment was that the players who left the bench were attempting to break up the fight and did not escalate the altercation.''

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2002/1028/1452258.html

Is this altercation a highly unusual situation?

I don't want suspensions but if they happen, cie la vie.

I think that's the important part. Stoudemire and Diaw didn't run to the fight like they wanted to fight someone, and their actions did not escalate the altercation. They stopped (or were stopped, per your own point of view) before they had a chance to become a part of the escalation.

I don't think Stoudemire and Diaw will be suspended. I hope Horry isn't, but his fate isn't looking so good.

[slayermin]

"There is also a growing perception, most of all, that Bowen was shown a good deal of leniency by the league office after being accused of intentionally kicking a dunking Stoudemire in Game 2 and kneeing Nash in Game 3 . . . and going unpunished in both cases. Doesn't the league have to balance that against the notion of "staying consistent" on leaving-the-bench suspensions?"

WTF? Isn't that the reason they got the calls tonight? Because they whined?

[cly2tw]

Stein already explained the reasoning those players got off was because they didn't know that Christy was being attacked by Fox and not a fan. so they went to see what happened. I can't see theme getting off that easily this wsn't unusual, guy commits flagrant people get pissed.


Well, when there is one exception taking place, the league has an excuse to make another exception. The rationale behind the Kings' case was the intention of the players was not determined to be pouring fuels to the altercation, the spirit behind the rule in the first place.

[Trainwreck2100]

Well, when there is one exception taking place, the league has an excuse to make another exception. The rationale behind the Kings' case was the intention of the players was not determined to be pouring fuels to the altercation, the spirit behind the rule in the first place.


No the rationale was they didn't know who was in the altercation. Because it was in the tunnel and out of their view.

[TDMVPDPOY]

wheres warren g mr. regulator!!!!

[mikekim]

I think that's the important part. Stoudemire and Diaw didn't run to the fight like they wanted to fight someone, and their actions did not escalate the altercation. They stopped (or were stopped, per your own point of view) before they had a chance to become a part of the escalation.

I don't think Stoudemire and Diaw will be suspended. I hope Horry isn't, but his fate isn't looking so good.

As much as I know how much easier it will be for the spurs, I really don't want them suspended (it is a sort of tug-of-war inside, but ultimately, I think non-suspension comes out a winner in my mind, very narrowly, but a winner nonetheless).

But, Stoudemire was definitely headed towards the altercations going on on the court with a purpose to get in there...if it wasn't for that coach, he would've been right in the thick of it. And the fact is that the coach grabbed him too late. He had already stepped on the court, brazenly taken off his towel from his neck (which MAY be used to determine his "intent" of heading out there...that and the fact that he was definitely not headed towards nash on the ground...not entirely sure about this, need to look at film again) and took a few, deliberate steps towards the action. I think he gets a game...but I don't know if it's that clear-cut. League MIGHT make an exception...maaayyyyybeee

As for stein's reference to the conspiracies and "growing perceptions"....I'm almost positive that's put in there to bolster impartiality as a journalist. No intelligent, self-respecting journalist of his standing would actually believe such nonsense.

[Kevin Blackistone]

They make the rules, they can break them if it benefits the league to do so. They aren't violating the U.S. constitution here if they allow Stoudemire and Horry to play in Game 5.

That's the stupidest thing I've read yet. If the league isn't going to take their rules seriously and not enforce them if they don't want to, then why should anyone take them seriously? If Amare and Diaw are not suspended, then nobody should ever be suspended for any rules violation ever again.

[Xylus]

That's the stupidest thing I've read yet. If the league isn't going to take their rules seriously and not enforce them if they don't want to, then why should anyone take them seriously? If Amare and Diaw are not suspended, then nobody should ever be suspended for any rules violation ever again.
Only those obsessed with the NBA are going to be concerned about the legitimacy of some small pinpoint of a rule.

The point is, it would be better for the league if these two weren't suspended, so the league won't suspend them. The rule violation was minor enough to give them a pass. It's not like Amare ran out onto the court and decked Tony Parker. He took a few steps outside of the restricted area, was restrained before getting close to the altercation, and then, by his own will, avoided entering the fray.

If the league felt that this violation was hurting the league's image, that it fed into the stereotype that it's a dirty league full of thugs, then Amare would absolutely receive a suspension. But Amare--arguably--could have been trying to act as peacemaker, which David Stern would approve of.

There are so many outlets that Jackson and Stern can take in order to justify not suspending Amare and Diaw. If they decide that suspending these two would do more harm than good, then they won't do it.

[ploto]

Why don't people remember Horry hitting Robinson in the family jewels?

[Findog]

This has been a great series so far. I want this thing decided with everybody important in uniform. Fuck these silly rules. Diaw and Amare did not escalate the situation, and Horry already got his F2 and an ejection.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

I don't know why Horry should be suspended. He received a flagrant 2 for what he did in the course of the game. It was not a blow to the head. It was not a hit on a player in the air who could have come down and been injured. A flagrant 2 seems exactly appropriate to me. Isn't this similar to the Jason Richardson situation?

[nkdlunch]

Horry fucked up. he will get 1 game suspension. noone else will be suspended. great 3 game series ahead of us!

btw, Nash flopped too.

GO SPURS!

[Jimcs50]

Horry needs a rest anyway...he is getting up there in years you know.

[Spurminator]

The leaving the bench rule is bullshit anyway. There's a natural instinct that draws you towards the action in situations like that.

The only person that should be suspended is Horry. And hopefully only for one game.... but if Stoudemire and Diaw get suspended for leaving the bench then Horry's has to be more severe.

[nkdlunch]

I agree, is Stoudamire and Diaw get suspended, Horry will get at least 2 game suspension :pctoss

fucking horry, that was unnecessary

[wildbill2u]

We lost our poise and control of a game we had won. If we coulda, woulda , shoulda done this or that or if the refs had made different calls, blah blah blah....is the crying of losers.

To hell with that. Lets win the next two.

[LilMissSPURfect]

I don't know why Horry should be suspended. He received a flagrant 2 for what he did in the course of the game. It was not a blow to the head. It was not a hit on a player in the air who could have come down and been injured. A flagrant 2 seems exactly appropriate to me. Isn't this similar to the Jason Richardson situation?


late to the seen, but IMO I feel same way...it was a foul, he got called for it.? why would roho be suspended? did he break a rule? (the don't foul the guys in purple rule coz the cry) why should horry b suspended? And I haven't seen close up video or images but didn't nash retaliate and swing at horry as well? (again isnt that a violation?)

[sammy]

Rules are rules! If Stoudemire and Diaw don't get suspended that's like telling everyone in the league that you can run out on the floor when there is fight! They had better enforce it! They sure as hell will probably suspend Horry, but these assholes have been given a pass so far with their dirty plays (Game 1 Bell Elbows Manu in the head, Game 2 Diaw/Barbosa undercutting Parker and Game 3 Marion raking his hand across Manu's eye)!

[stretch]

Why not a suspension for JRich then on the Okur open field tackle? Same type of play as context as Rob's foul, no?
Open field tackle? Are you stupid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ1jlcGbaac

[stretch]

Why don't people remember Horry hitting Robinson in the family jewels?
Or biting Stackhouse's arm?

[Amare_32]

I say let them play. Horry got the flagrant 2 and ejection thats enough. I don't think Amare and Diaw will be suspended.

[Spurs Brazil]

I say let them play. Horry got the flagrant 2 and ejection thats enough. I don't think Amare and Diaw will be suspended.

I agree

[tmtcsc]

What the fuck ?!??! Horry hip checked Nash and Nash flopped and overplayed it. He needed to foul Nash and he did. Phoenix wants to make a big deal out of this. It wasn't. It was hard foul, he got ejected and that's it. He threw his elbow in self defense at Bell. No one needs to be suspended.

I'm just as disappointed as everyone else at Pop's decision to leave Tim on the bench the extra 1 or 2 minutes and that no one on the Spurs answered the call. Tony forced that last shot and it created a Fast Break opp.

Manu is playing like shit too. If he doesn't play better, we will lose. End of story. He's been a big part of our success but Bell is getting the best of him. This isn't about him playing tougher. He needs to find a way to respond to the aggressive 'Show' on the pick and roll.

He needs to slash to the basket w/o the ball and go for layups or shots off of picks. Phoenix has done a good job of taking away his favorite isolation and p/r plays.

[BillsCarnage]

What the fuck ?!??! Horry hip checked Nash and Nash flopped and overplayed it. He needed to foul Nash and he did. Phoenix wants to make a big deal out of this. It wasn't. It was hard foul, he got ejected and that's it. He threw his elbow in self defense at Bell. No one needs to be suspended.

Phoenix has done a good job of taking away his favorite isolation and p/r plays.


I said this last night, what cost Horry was the raising of the elbow to Nash's shoulder. Had he left the elbow down it would have just been a hard foul or F1. The raised elbow is what got him the F2 and ejection. It was a stupid move by Horry to raise the elbow.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention form the league about Jrich's F2 either.

[Strike]

The point is, it would be better for the league if these two weren't suspended, so the league won't suspend them.

It would be better if the rules were followed the the prescribed punishment is carried out. Otherwise it gives every other player reason to break every rule on the books. "If he didn't get punished for that, why should I?"

I don't care one way or the other if Amare and Diaw get axed for game 5. But if the rules say leaving the bench during an altercation gets you a one game suspension, then that's what should happen.

Rules are rules. If they broke the rules, they should be suspended. Simple as that.

[Amare_32]

I said this last night, what cost Horry was the raising of the elbow to Nash's shoulder. Had he left the elbow down it would have just been a hard foul or F1. The raised elbow is what got him the F2 and ejection. It was a stupid move by Horry to raise the elbow.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention form the league about Jrich's F2 either.

The League said no further action was necessary I think.

[ManuMagic]

Robert Horry is my personal hero - he has goaded the idiots on the Suns and now has the league with their bullshit leadership in Stern and Stu fucking Jackson in a no win situation. It's wonderful. Fuck Stern and his merry band of biased refs. Fuck Jackson and his wishy washy rules. I hope the ratings continue to fall until the whole thing gets shut down.

If they do the right thing and suspend Diaw and Amare Stoudemire like they have others in the past then the Suns will bitch and moan for a fucking year. If they weasel out from behind their own rules then they will be the spineless worms who can't even enforce their own laws. Fuck them.

[Trainwreck2100]

\
I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention form the league about Jrich's F2 either.


Rich is off the hook Davis was still being looked at.

[texasqb2]

Artest got suspended for nothing last year. I think it's pretty obvious that Horry's not going to be in America West Wednesday. Sucks, because Elson can't replace what Rob can do for this team.


I highly doubt we will see much of Elson as we should see much more of Matt Bonner.

[texasqb2]

I agree, is Stoudamire and Diaw get suspended, Horry will get at least 2 game suspension :pctoss

fucking horry, that was unnecessary


I am a realist in the since that Bob is a very smart player...He knew the game was over, but hey it looks like he took out both Diaw and Stoudamire and for that, he is clutch city once again. He rattled the Suns once again and I believe he has given us the edge for the rest of the way. I believe Booner can replace him, but who can replace Phoenix's 2 of their best 6 guys?

[Obstructed_View]

Artest got suspended for nothing last year.
Okay, that's just stupid. The quality of your takes is dropping as this series progresses.

[Cry Havoc]

Only those obsessed with the NBA are going to be concerned about the legitimacy of some small pinpoint of a rule.

Xylus, Commissioner Stern. Commissioner Stern, Xylus.


The point is, it would be better for the league if these two weren't suspended, so the league won't suspend them. The rule violation was minor enough to give them a pass. It's not like Amare ran out onto the court and decked Tony Parker. He took a few steps outside of the restricted area, was restrained before getting close to the altercation, and then, by his own will, avoided entering the fray.

Many, many suspensions have been handed out for players doing a hell of a lot less than Amare did. Barkley took one step on the court during an altercation, restrained HIMSELF, and still got the boot. If you allow players to hop off the bench and head towards a fray, you stand the risk of instigating a number of large bench clearing brawls in the future. Players run off the bench thinking, "Ok I'm not going to get in this, I'm just protecting my guys" and suddenly are in the middle of a mass of fists and feet, and there isn't a player alive outside of a certain 7-foot German who will refrain from throwing down in that situation. Tempers are already hot, and that's when players and even fans can get hurt.

That "altercation" last night was seconds away from becoming a much bigger nightmare for the NBA. It was this close to a massive fight that would have seen stars from both teams ejected. If this happens in the future, more star players might get ejected because they were allowed to leave the bench and got caught up in the pitch of the moment. So instead of deterring them, you actually encourage them to get close to a fight, and not even the most ardent "let them play" fan will excuse punching and fighting. That's probably a series-long suspension, and we could have very well had that happen last night with several players.


If the league felt that this violation was hurting the league's image, that it fed into the stereotype that it's a dirty league full of thugs, then Amare would absolutely receive a suspension. But Amare--arguably--could have been trying to act as peacemaker, which David Stern would approve of.

Ah, I see you do know who's running the league. However, you obviously missed the look on Amare's face. He was ready to rumble. RUNNING towards a situation that's near ignition is never, ever a way to be a peacemaker.


There are so many outlets that Jackson and Stern can take in order to justify not suspending Amare and Diaw. If they decide that suspending these two would do more harm than good, then they won't do it.

No, there aren't. There are too many precedents here set by earlier incidents, by NBA players who were bigger and brighter than even Amare Stoudamire, and they were booted for much less than this. The only exception is an extreme case in which the players thought their teammates' very life could be at risk. There was none of that here.

And make no mistake. I would like to see both squads at full strength for Game 5.

But 4 years down the road, I don't want to see a devastating injury to a fan or a player because the NBA tried to save the ratings of this series. The NBA cannot afford another Detroit-Indiana. Someone could have easily DIED that night, with chair-throwing and players all over the place. Letting players come off the bench during an "altercation" is just asking for more problems in the future. What happens the next time a player leaves the bench and points to this instance? The league will have no choice but to let him off too, which basically nullifies the rule, or to say, "Sorry kid, but that was the biggest series of the playoffs and we couldn't let our profit margin lapse. So while they got off, enjoy your one game suspension."


:pctoss

I fucking hate this entire situation.

Fuck you, Horry. And fuck you Diaw and Amare for putting the ENTIRE LEAGUE under the crosshairs about what to do here because you couldn't keep your testosterone in check for 5 seconds to cool down.

This is a no fucking win for the NBA. Either the Spurs have an asterisk or the Suns will go down as the team that violated the untouchable rule and got favored by the League. Damn it. Damn it all to hell. :madrun :madrun :madrun