Why do some people react as if this has never happened before?

[Man In Black]

I get that there are a lot of people who are upset with the way that it came down. I've already noted that only 2 of 10 players (both active and inactive but on the bench) left the area. It was a young mistake but 8 players plus the 10 players on the Spurs bench knew enough OR had assistant coaches smart enough, to keep them where they were supposed to be.


It's the 2nd round and I know that some fans are treating this as their NBA Finals but it's not even Western Conference Finals.

I thought back and I seem to recall an incident in the 2000 WCF Lakers vs. Blazers

Brian Shaw stepped just 1 foot on the court during a Sabonins-Rick Fox altercation.

This is the actual box score the for Game 4:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/boxscores/2000/05/28/por_lal/index.html

Note this:
Did Not Play: George (Left Ankle Sprain), Shaw (Suspended By League).



So I wish Suns fan would stop with the "This shouldn't happen in a hotly contested series" talk. It's smacks of more whining. If there is anyone to blame, your team has 6 Assistant coaches whose responsibilities include keeping players on the bench...especially during any period that could be deemed an altercation.

[dbreiden83080]

For the Suns i don't mind their complaining so much because they feel like this is there year and want to win it all. The fans though have to know that this is not unusual it has happened before and they are not being treated any different than other teams that did the same thing.

[nkdlunch]

most ppl is dumb











:smokin

[FromWayDowntown]

Curious that this thread has gotten so few responses and views.

Precedent can be a bitch sometimes.

[Obstructed_View]

The Suns fans won't read it. I've gotten the "yeah but the rule is stupid" argument for two days now from 99.9 percent of the Suns (and mavericks and nuggets and kings) fans.

[ChumpDumper]

This ten-year old rule that has already been relaxed once and that everyone knows about is stupid. I decided that the second I realized it affected my team.

[cornbread]

Did you really expect them to consider how this kind of situation has been handled in the past?

[smeagol]

Curious that this thread has gotten so few responses and views.

Precedent can be a bitch sometimes.
Werd

[DePastino]

Did you really expect them to consider how this kind of situation has been handled in the past?

Look, most of the angst has to do with the fact that the Suns wouldn't even be in this situation had Horry not knocked Nash on his ass.

Suns fans are therefore naturally pissed and looking for someone's head.

It's tough to be rational and objective when something THIS devastating happens to your team.

Believe me, PLENTY of fans on Suns boards are letting Stoudemire and Diaw have it for screwing up.

[Borosai]

It's the trickle effect: Owner --> Coaches --> Players --> Fans

They all act the same (well, not ALL, but you get the idea).

[Man In Black]

No I just find it funny that everyone is stuck on the ruling when the fault lies on the reaction of everyone on that side of the bench, besides players, there are other people (mainly trainers and coaches) whose job responsibilities include keeping the bench players in the bench area.

Even stranger is that as much as I hate this guy:
He understands why:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6814674

Suspending Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw was actually a no-brainer. Rules, after all, are rules. Stoudemire and Diaw, along with the Suns' coaching staff simply had to know that suspensions would be automatic if the sideline was crossed. (Notice that none of the Spurs' benchmen made the same mistake.) That Stoudemire is an All-League player and that the Suns' chances of winning the pivotal Game 5 are now greatly diminished is totally beside the point.
Good for His Sterness for doing the right thing in this instance. He couldn't suspend Diaw without suspending Stoudemire. Otherwise the message would have been that franchise players are allowed more leeway than marginal players. And if he had concocted some weasely reason for not suspending either of them, then Patrick Ewing, et al, would have screamed bloody murder for all the suspensions handed down for the same offense back in 1997 that enabled Miami to get a stranglehold on the Eastern Conference semifinals. In following the letter of the law instead of submitting to popular demand, Stern showed plenty of guts.

[duncan228]

Logic doesn't seem to be working today. (Or yesterday.)

[nashty]

I get that there are a lot of people who are upset with the way that it came down. I've already noted that only 2 of 10 players (both active and inactive but on the bench) left the area. It was a young mistake but 8 players plus the 10 players on the Spurs bench knew enough OR had assistant coaches smart enough, to keep them where they were supposed to be.


It's the 2nd round and I know that some fans are treating this as their NBA Finals but it's not even Western Conference Finals.

I thought back and I seem to recall an incident in the 2000 WCF Lakers vs. Blazers

Brian Shaw stepped just 1 foot on the court during a Sabonins-Rick Fox altercation.

This is the actual box score the for Game 4:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/boxscores/2000/05/28/por_lal/index.html

Note this:

So I wish Suns fan would stop with the "This shouldn't happen in a hotly contested series" talk. It's smacks of more whining. If there is anyone to blame, your team has 6 Assistant coaches whose responsibilities include keeping players on the bench...especially during any period that could be deemed an altercation.


As I read this I remebered last night when Dee Brown talked on espn news about him being suspended for a playoff game for something along the lines. The big difference is that this is Amare and Diaw we are talking about, two of the three "bigs" the Suns have. Brian Shaw and Dee Brown were not even the third or fourth best players on their respective teams. You think this would be equally as big a story if instead of Amare and Diaw it would be just Diaw??

Suspending both suns could greatly change the outcome of the series. Brian Shaw missing a game...... I don't think that was so critical....

[FromWayDowntown]

As I read this I remebered last night when Dee Brown talked on espn news about him being suspended for a playoff game for something along the lines. The big difference is that this is Amare and Diaw we are talking about, two of the three "bigs" the Suns have. Brian Shaw and Dee Brown were not even the third or fourth best players on their respective teams. You think this would be equally as big a story if instead of Amare and Diaw it would be just Diaw??

Suspending both suns could greatly change the outcome of the series. Brian Shaw missing a game...... I don't think that was so critical....

So are you arguing that the identity of the players involved should change the punishment? Or that there were no debates like the current one when Dee Brown and Brian Shaw were punished? I don't see how the former is remotely tenable. And I'm not sure that the latter is correct.

The league couldn't have suspended Amare without suspending Diaw, and vice-versa. And, frankly, the Shaw-Brown precedent suggests strongly to me that the league couldn't have ignored the violation and refused to suspend either Amare or Diaw.

[td4mvp21]

I don't want anyone to be suspended. Things don't always work out the way you want though. The Suns shouldn't have started all of this dirty talk just because this was the most physical series most of them had played in. That got the Spurs going and surprisingly enough, they didn't back down-they stepped it up in physicality. The Suns even said they were going to respond and they did. That is what led up to the Horry incident. The whole game, the refs did not call any major pushing and shoving and it got out of control. They should have put a stop to it from the beginning, whether it had been on a Spurs or Suns played. That was one factor. But like I said, the Suns should have kept their mouths shut from the beginning. Horry should have fouled Nash normally (I think I agree that he knew what he was doing), and Stoudmire/Diaw should have had the maturity to stay on the bench. No one is to blame for this except the Suns players themselves. Horry did not make Stoudemire/Diaw leave the bench. They chose too. I don't think Horry has mind control over those two players, however, judging from some Suns fans responses, he seems to?

[nashty]

[QUOTE=Man In Black]No I just find it funny that everyone is stuck on the ruling when the fault lies on the reaction of everyone on that side of the bench, besides players, there are other people (mainly trainers and coaches) whose job responsibilities include keeping the bench players in the bench area.

QUOTE]

Would you then agree that Duncan was equally as stupid for stepping on the court???

[ChumpDumper]

Would you then agree that Duncan was equally as stupid for stepping on the court???Yes.

So?

[Despot]

I was thinking along the same lines this morning. I wanted to start a thread asking for one good reason WHY the media, suns fans, and general fans think that Amare and Diaw should be the exceptions to the rule when so many others have been gotten the hammer, and is one of the rules that has been so consistent.

However, the only thing that make this case different, is that it is not the norm for the star players to be the ones to go on the court (for an ALTERCATION). That's it!

The media likes it because controversy sales and often writer take a stance just for the sake of being controversial, in this case, they have made this sentiment the mainstream stance.

Suns fans hate it because two stars get suspended.

General fans see a great series seemingly taken down a notch, and see it as unjust because of what the majority of the media is telling them to think.

I say seemingly, because at this point, something is bound to happen tonight.

[Obstructed_View]

As I read this I remebered last night when Dee Brown talked on espn news about him being suspended for a playoff game for something along the lines. The big difference is that this is Amare and Diaw we are talking about, two of the three "bigs" the Suns have. Brian Shaw and Dee Brown were not even the third or fourth best players on their respective teams. You think this would be equally as big a story if instead of Amare and Diaw it would be just Diaw??

Suspending both suns could greatly change the outcome of the series. Brian Shaw missing a game...... I don't think that was so critical....
Right. They should change the rules for my team because they are my team. The rules shouldn't apply to them. Finally a Suns fan has the guts to admit that he doesn't give a shit about fairness as long as his team gets an advantage. :toast

[Obstructed_View]

Would you then agree that Duncan was equally as stupid for stepping on the court???
Absolutely. It was the stupidest thing he's done in a long time. If there'd been a shove between Jones and Elson he'd be sitting. I seem to recall someone saying that Bowen pulled him back to the sideline and yelled at him about it, but I don't know if that's true.

[Man In Black]

Again...Straight from someone who plays for Phoenix. The whole team knew what kind of stance to take when it comes to altercations.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/patburke_diary.html

Pat Burke's diary
Suns reserve shares his thoughts throughout the NBA playoffs
May 16, 2:26 p.m.
On the suspensions: "I found out yesterday. I had the television on and I saw the suspension went through. It's funny, I kept it quiet (Tuesday,) but I thought all along that they were going to get suspended. We have an NBA meeting at the beginning of every year, and they tell us about the rules and the rule changes. And that's one of the biggest rules. It's cut and dry. You step over that line during an altercation and you're out.''


So why is it that the rest of the vets do not grab their young stars? Or that 6 assistant coaches or a trainer, assistant trainer, equipment manager stop those 2 players from breaking that "cut and dry" rule?

I would prefer a game like before that incident, but that ain't happening for game 5.

[mardigan]

Absolutely. It was the stupidest thing he's done in a long time. If there'd been a shove between Jones and Elson he'd be sitting. I seem to recall someone saying that Bowen pulled him back to the sideline and yelled at him about it, but I don't know if that's true.
Yea, Bowen grabbed him and pulled him back to the bench, not sure if anything was said

[ATXSPUR]

Look, most of the angst has to do with the fact that the Suns wouldn't even be in this situation had Horry not knocked Nash on his ass.

Suns fans are therefore naturally pissed and looking for someone's head.

It's tough to be rational and objective when something THIS devastating happens to your team.

Believe me, PLENTY of fans on Suns boards are letting Stoudemire and Diaw have it for screwing up.

didnt your team win the game??? pfft devastating...you guys have the mental edge now...

[nashty]

Right. They should change the rules for my team because they are my team. The rules shouldn't apply to them. Finally a Suns fan has the guts to admit that he doesn't give a shit about fairness as long as his team gets an advantage. :toast

I am not saying the rules should not apply to my team.....althought it is not a bad idea :p: . I was talking about why this has become a big thing for the media. As I have stated in other threads, as the rule stands today, both amare and diaw deserved the suspension. But, I do think this is a rule that needs to be revisited in the near future.

[Obstructed_View]

I am not saying the rules should not apply to my team.....althought it is not a bad idea :p: . I was talking about why this has become a big thing for the media. As I have stated in other threads, as the rule stands today, both amare and diaw deserved the suspension. But, I do think this is a rule that needs to be revisited in the near future.
Possibly so, but it's been a good rule for ten years, and there's never been more of a shitstorm than when it applies to the one team that thinks the rules shouldn't apply to them and that nobody should be allowed to defend them or compete fairly.

[Trainwreck2100]

Duncan was stupid for being on the court





He could have got a T

[nashty]

Possibly so, but it's been a good rule for ten years, and there's never been more of a shitstorm than when it applies to the one team that thinks the rules shouldn't apply to them and that nobody should be allowed to defend them or compete fairly.

The spirit of the rule is to prevent an altercation to escalate. Maybe if they just bend the rule a little to let the players stay within a certain defined distance from the bench without interfiering in the fight?? It is impossible to react without thinking, this could give little time for players to react and retract from their reaction. Obviously if they get to where the altercation is happening, that is another story.

[Obstructed_View]

The spirit of the rule is to prevent an altercation to escalate. Maybe if they just bend the rule a little to let the players stay within a certain defined distance from the bench without interfiering in the fight?? It is impossible to react without thinking, this could give little time for players to react and retract from their reaction. Obviously if they get to where the altercation is happening, that is another story.

Nobody should have reacted. The coaching staff should have stopped them. The entire league knows this. Your team FUCKED UP. Get over it. If you want the rules bent for you, you aren't going to find any sympathy in Spurs fans, especially after all the lobbying done by the Suns to get preferential calls and to get Bowen suspended for his super dragon crane style sumo sweeping honshu kick to the side of Steve Nash's face.

[TLWisfoine]

Suns fans need to blame their dumb behind players. People fall hard all the time and you don't see people running up from the bench. In my opinion the Baron Davis shot to Derek Fisher was worse and you didn't see the Utah bench jump up. If I'm not mistaken the majority of the Phoenix bench didn't leave the bench except for extra sensitive Amare. Amare needs to stop crying like a little b*tch about how dirty the Spurs are and start using that body of his and start dishing out pain as well.

[Obstructed_View]

Suns fans need to blame their dumb behind players. People fall hard all the time and you don't see people running up from the bench. In my opinion the Baron Davis shot to Derek Fisher was worse and you didn't see the Utah bench jump up. If I'm not mistaken the majority of the Phoenix bench didn't leave the bench except for extra sensitive Amare. Amare needs to stop crying like a little b*tch about how dirty the Spurs are and start using that body of his and start dishing out pain as well.
Jason Terry threw Baron Davis down right in front of the bench and nobody reacted, even when Baron acted like he'd just been trampled by a herd of horses. Some teams are just smarter than others.

[nashty]

Nobody should have reacted. The coaching staff should have stopped them. The entire league knows this. Your team FUCKED UP. Get over it. If you want the rules bent for you, you aren't going to find any sympathy in Spurs fans, especially after all the lobbying done by the Suns to get preferential calls and to get Bowen suspended for his super dragon crane style sumo sweeping honshu kick to the side of Steve Nash's face.

I am not looking for sympathy from anyone. I am trying to talk basketball. In last year's playoffs your spurs team got hit by a bad rule from the NBA. The spurs and mavs deserved the 1st and 2nd seeding. That ruled had been in effect for several seasons, does that means it's a good rule??. They revued the rule and made a correct adjustment. I am expecting at least a revue of this rule.

I know both players fucked up. You don't have to be a genious to know that.

[TLWisfoine]

Jason Terry threw Baron Davis down right in front of the bench and nobody reacted, even when Baron acted like he'd just been trampled by a herd of horses. Some teams are just smarter than others.

Exactly. I didn't care before who won this series before, but after the media has all but martryed Amare and the Suns, and the Suns acting like a bunch of crybabies, I am hoping they lose. My goodness, is this what basketball is coming to, a bunch of crybaby sissies?

[Obstructed_View]

I am not looking for sympathy from anyone. I am trying to talk basketball. In last year's playoffs your spurs team got hit by a bad rule from the NBA. The spurs and mavs deserved the 1st and 2nd seeding. That ruled had been in effect for several seasons, does that means it's a good rule??. They revued the rule and made a correct adjustment. I am expecting at least a revue of this rule.

I know both players fucked up. You don't have to be a genious to know that.
The seeding rule had not been in effect for very long, realignment took place in 2005 so it was the second season. Big fuckin' difference. Besides, it isn't the reason the Spurs lost anyway.

[Spurs>mavs]

Becasue there stupid :hat