Greg Anthony's comments about Tim Duncan

[Tony Reali]

BUY IT OR SELL IT

During ESPN's Game 6 postgame show, analyst Greg Anthony had some words of high praise for the Spurs and in particular their star forward Tim Duncan. He called him "The best power forward that the league has ever seen." He also went on to say that the Spurs do in fact play "sexy basketball" and frowned on notion that their brand of basketball was boring.


At this point in his career, are you buying or selling Tim Duncan being labeled as the best power forward to set foot on the hardwood.

[SenorSpur]

In a word - YES!

Reason: Because of his greatness at both ends of the floor. At this point in his career, he may as complete a player defensively and he is offensively. He can dominate both ends of the floor.

[Spider TX]

As boring as he is and as much as I can't stand him, I might have to agree. He is unstoppable with that bank shot and forces teams to ty and double team opening up other shots.

[Spider TX]

Then again, I didn't pay a lot of attention to basketball prior to about '93, so it's hard to compare to players prior to that.

[K-State Spur]

Well, before Duncan, most people would have considered Karl Malone and Charles Barkley 1-2 in terms of the best power forward. Championships aren't everything, but 3 Finals MVPs outweighs any numbers from those 2.

If they get another couple of titles and another 3-4 years of this level of play from Duncan, it is quite possible that Timmy could surpass Larry Bird as the best forward of all time.

[baseline bum]

Well, before Duncan, most people would have considered Karl Malone and Charles Barkley 1-2 in terms of the best power forward. Championships aren't everything, but 3 Finals MVPs outweighs any numbers from those 2.

If they get another couple of titles and another 3-4 years of this level of play from Duncan, it is quite possible that Timmy could surpass Larry Bird as the best forward of all time.

Nah. Bird's pretty untouchable there. What separates Bird from every other forward in NBA history was the fact that he was better than Horry in the clutch, even with every team throwing everything they had at him at the ends of games. Bird at anything less than top 3 all-time is crazy to me.

[smrattler]

Barkley? Really????

If Malone and Bark are the only ones he needs to beat, that's a no brainer.

[Solid D]

Although Bird occasionally played the 4, he was a 3 when teamed with McHale and The Chief. Bird was classified as a 3 in most positional rankings during his playing days.

Duncan is a pivot player. Bird played out on the floor.

[Spider TX]

It wasn't about Bird playing the 4, it was about forward in general when referring to Bird.

[Dipship31]

TD is hands down the greatest PF to play the game. Anyone arguing that is a fool.

[Solid D]

Sorry, I caught it after re-reading K-State's last sentence. I seldom see anyone rank the "best guard ever" or the "best forward ever" any more.

[K-State Spur]

Nah. Bird's pretty untouchable there. What separates Bird from every other forward in NBA history was the fact that he was better than Horry in the clutch, even with every team throwing everything they had at him at the ends of games. Bird at anything less than top 3 all-time is crazy to me.

Duncan at his best controls games on both ends of the floor. Larry Legend never came close to that (although he had entire series where he was virtually unguardable offensively).

I think odds are probably against Timmy getting to Larry's status, but it's not completely out of the question either.

[K-State Spur]

TD is hands down the greatest PF to play the game. Anyone arguing that is a fool.

This is true. Just thinking outside the box here. I think Tim's already got best PF, and with a few centers and jordan ahead of him he'll probably never grab best player ever, so i was looking for something else that he can claim.

[Spider TX]

He can claim best player ever out of Wake Forest!

[K-State Spur]

He can claim best player ever out of Wake Forest!

I'm going with this guy:

http://smith.mn/nbashort/mugsy1.jpg

[SpurOutofTownFan]

HE said theres nothing sexier than manu and tony penetrating and gong for layups etc.

[dbreiden83080]

As boring as he is and as much as I can't stand him, I might have to agree. He is unstoppable with that bank shot and forces teams to ty and double team opening up other shots.

What is boring about his game? He does everything well on both ends of the floor. I will never understand how anyone who says they love basketball could have little interest in watching Tim play. This guy is a fucking genius out there on the court.

[Spider TX]

He is damn good, but is so damn boring because he does nothing exciting. Just because a player is good does not always make him fun to watch. In TD's case, he ios not fun to watch. Sorry, just how it is.

[SpursIndonesia]

If Tim can get 5 champ. rings being the focal point along the way, i think he should be rated over Bird. But that's quite a difficult precondition to fullfill in his next few golden age yrs.

[dbreiden83080]

He is damn good, but is so damn boring because he does nothing exciting. Just because a player is good does not always make him fun to watch. In TD's case, he ios not fun to watch. Sorry, just how it is.

Like what? Give me an example of someone who plays his position that is exciting to watch. Dirk jacking 3's all day long. KG shooting fadeaway jumpers all day long, what tell me?

[K-State Spur]

He is damn good, but is so damn boring because he does nothing exciting. Just because a player is good does not always make him fun to watch. In TD's case, he ios not fun to watch. Sorry, just how it is.

I think that's a preconceived point of view that many people have and they just ignore evidence to the contrary.

For example, even by sportscenter standards, Timmy posterized Amare pretty good yesterday. What's not exciting about that? I also think a lot of people would agree that a 12 foot bank shot from the wing is more interesting than just a standard jumper.

[Spider TX]

Yes, Dirk is fun to watch because he scores in many different ways and is a great outside shooter. Amare is more fun because of his physical prowess and dominance. None of this means they are better than TD, but they just provide more excitement to fans. Duncan pretty much backs his way in every time and puts it off the glass or a little hook shot, just redundant. It is also quite boring to watch his eyes almost pop out of his head on every foul call.

[Spider TX]

Then you are wrong, because I live in Dallas, a city that hates both the Spurs and Suns, and everyone here cant stand to watch Duncan, but still love to watch Amare because of how he scores. And in Phoenix where I'm from, they enjoy to watch someone like Dirk because he scores in many different ways.

[FireSternin2007]

I don't really think you can classify any one player as best ever at any position. However, I think you can label a player the best during his era. I think later on if TD wins another championship, people will look back and call this the Tim Duncan era. But other players were also dominant during their times at their positions IMHO.

[Spider TX]

And Amare posterizes players all the time, not once in a great while like Duncan did that one time.

[dbreiden83080]

Yes, Dirk is fun to watch because he scores in many different ways and is a great outside shooter. Amare is more fun because of his physical prowess and dominance. None of this means they are better than TD, but they just provide more excitement to fans. Duncan pretty much backs his way in every time and puts it off the glass or a little hook shot, just redundant. It is also quite boring to watch his eyes almost pop out of his head on every foul call.

Many different ways LOL. Dirk shoots jumpers all day for shit's sake. He will throw in the occasional drive to the hoop (Not against GS) but 90% of his game is shooting jumpers. Tim has the much more well rounded offensive game. Tim faces up as much as he backs his man down. He goes to the hoop, he shoots the bank shot facing his man up or backing him down. He can give you the hook shot with either hand. The man has the most complete game in the league. This is the problem with fans today. What wins and is what teams needs most is not what thrills the average fan. Guys who give you 1 or 2 cool things to watch but suck at everything else that sells tickets.

[TheSanityAnnex]

HE said theres nothing sexier than manu and tony penetrating:lmao

[dbreiden83080]

And Amare posterizes players all the time, not once in a great while like Duncan did that one time.

He has to since he can't guard anyone in the low block for shit if he could not posterize people what good would he be?

[TDMVPDPOY]

the good old days, bird/magic only had to play one round b4 reaching the finals

there teams were stackd and more superior to the spurs as compared in talent.

seriously wtf did bird and magic played? and it seems they get all the credit, and the cockriders are also overrated.

[dbreiden83080]

they enjoy to watch someone like Dirk because he scores in many different ways.

The more you say this the harder i am laughing because it is simply not true. 90% of Dirk's shots are jumpers period.

[Spider TX]

You close minded Spurs fans are so damn bitter against the past 2 years MVP winners. So many of you dig and scratch for anyways to bash on those 2 GREAT players just because your boy TD didn't perform as well as either of them and get the MVP. NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan, but so many all around the country love to watch Dirk and Nash play. Wonder why. It's because he is so fucking boring, good or not.

[dbreiden83080]

the good old days, bird/magic only had to play one round b4 reaching the finals

there teams were stackd and more superior to the spurs as compared in talent.

seriously wtf did bird and magic played? and it seems they get all the credit, and the cockriders are also overrated.

Duncan is every bit as good as Bird. You imagine Duncan playing with the likes of Parish and Mchale, now that would be fucking scary.

[Spider TX]

The more you say this the harder i am laughing because it is simply not true. 90% of Dirk's shots are jumpers period.

And shooting that jumper that well from all over and from the 3 is far more impressive than the short stuff Duncan throws in.

[Spider TX]

Duncan is every bit as good as Bird. You imagine Duncan playing with the likes of Parish and Mchale, now that would be fucking scary.

This futher discredits what you have to say. Duncan is very good, but not Bird good. Your comments might be the most homeristic I've seen.

[dbreiden83080]

NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan, but so many all around the country love to watch Dirk and Nash play.

Nash much more than Dirk and your comment about Duncan is ridiculous.

[mikekim]

You close minded Spurs fans are so damn bitter against the past 2 years MVP winners. So many of you dig and scratch for anyways to bash on those 2 GREAT players just because your boy TD didn't perform as well as either of them and get the MVP. NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan, but so many all around the country love to watch Dirk and Nash play. Wonder why. It's because he is so fucking boring, good or not.

That's retarded.

FIBA sucks.

[spurs1990]

I wouldn't be surprised if Duncan ended up in the basketball hall of fame when he retires.

[FireSternin2007]

Calling a skilled player like Duncan "boring" is a weak argument. Probably the weakest argument possible. I'd say a casual fan can get away with calling him "boring", but anyone that knows anything about the game and what it takes to do what TD does, will enjoy watching it. I don't like TD simply because he so hard to slow down. Being a Jazz fan i hope it suddenly snows four feet in TD's driveway tomorrow afternoon so he can't make it to the arena. I don't like my chances.

[dbreiden83080]

This futher discredits what you have to say. Duncan is very good, but not Bird good. Your comments might be the most homeristic I've seen.

LOL so Tim on a team with that kind of hall of fame talent and he is not winning everything that is not nailed down. He has 3 titles and has played with 0 hall of famers in their primes.

[dbreiden83080]

This futher discredits what you have to say. Duncan is very good, but not Bird good. Your comments might be the most homeristic I've seen.

BTW how is he not as good as Bird? Right off the bat you can't argue that Tim is a better rebounder and defender than Bird, they both have 3 titles so tell me how Bird is better?

[K-State Spur]

Yes, Dirk is fun to watch because he scores in many different ways and is a great outside shooter. Amare is more fun because of his physical prowess and dominance. None of this means they are better than TD, but they just provide more excitement to fans. Duncan pretty much backs his way in every time and puts it off the glass or a little hook shot, just redundant. It is also quite boring to watch his eyes almost pop out of his head on every foul call.

Maybe you just think it's redundant because you have seen it so much. I mean, it looks like Duncan will be playing into June...again. A time of year where Dirk & Nash have typically been going to clubs and allowing people to take drunken pictures of them.

[dbreiden83080]

Maybe you just think it's redundant because you have seen it so much. I mean, it looks like Duncan will be playing into June...again. A time of year where Dirk & Nash have typically been going to clubs and allowing people to take drunken pictures of them.

Dirk is probably staring at his MVP trophy while hurling empty bottles of scotch right about now.

[Spider TX]

I don't need to tell you how. You are such a homer for the Spurs that nothing will matter, yet so many of your fellow fans would not equate him to Bird.

And all I'm saying is Duncan is boring as shit to watch for the vast majority of fans, which is a good part of the reason why the Spurs also get less nationally televised games than some of those other teams. Duncan is very skilled and good at what he does, but that does not make it exciting to watch.

Greg Maddux is one of the best pitchers over the last 15 years, but it has never ever been very exciting to watch, not like a Randy Johnson or a Clemens, because those guys might go out there and strike out 20 on any given day, but Maddux will get it done consistently, while often times not keeping the crowd as into it. It's the same type of thing, that's all.

[mikekim]

Tangent alert.

Greg Anthony....I remember a looonnng time ago, I even forgot what year and what series, Marc Stein was on the halftime or postgame show as a guest (like a video teleconference thing). They were arguing about who the mvp should be (I think Shaq was in question, so it might've been his first year in Miami) and I remember Greg Anthony and Marc Stein went at it. Not so much Marc Stein, but it seemed like Anthony took it personally that he disagreed and Anthony was mockingly calling Stein and his "esteemed, astute, educated mind" (I'm slightly paraphrasing) out.

And I've never seen them on the same show, segment, special, whatever ever since. But I think Anthony knows what he's talking about for the most part. I just don't know what happened that one time. (I think Anthony did have a valid point though in the discussion, it was just the personal emotion that he showed that was kinda weird. I think there was an underlying issue, maybe a comment Stein slipped out before the show or something.)

Tangent over.

[Spider TX]

Maybe you just think it's redundant because you have seen it so much. I mean, it looks like Duncan will be playing into June...again. A time of year where Dirk & Nash have typically been going to clubs and allowing people to take drunken pictures of them.

It's redundant because you can basically predict how he will score once he gets the ball at a certain point on the court. Yes, it's frustrating as hell, but it's predictable, and not easily slowed down or stopped.

[dbreiden83080]

I don't need to tell you how. You are such a homer for the Spurs that nothing will matter, yet so many of your fellow fans would not equate him to Bird.



Making a statement without context is meaningless. Tell me why he is not as good as Bird other than just because i say so.

[dbreiden83080]

It's redundant because you can basically predict how he will score once he gets the ball at a certain point on the court. Yes, it's frustrating as hell, but it's predictable, and not easily slowed down or stopped.

You can say that about any player. Dirk must take the same jump shot from the same areas on the court at least 10 times a game. KG he basically dribbles 2 or 3 times into the paint and shoots a fadeaway jumper 90% of the time.

[Spider TX]

I refuse to continue to argue with someone who believes Duncan is the greatest ever, Parker is the greatest pg ever, manu is the greatest 2 ever, Bowen is the greatest defender ever, and Pop is the greatest coach ever. It is pointless to continue to argue with you when you believe all those things. You are that much of a homer.

[dbreiden83080]

I refuse to continue to argue with someone who believes Duncan is the greatest ever, Parker is the greatest pg ever, manu is the greatest 2 ever, Bowen is the greatest defender ever, and Pop is the greatest coach ever. It is pointless to continue to argue with you when you believe all those things. You are that much of a homer.

I never said any of those things so i guess this is simply your way of waving the white flag, i accept your surrender.

[mikekim]

I don't understand how anyone can cite boredom (unstoppable and dominating "boring" talent) as the main crux on the argument against Tim Duncan as one of the greatest players of all time.

He is better than Dirk, better than Nash---not taking anything away from those great players. Don't know about Bird because I simply haven't watched enough of Bird's games compared to Duncan's games. But Duncan is ALREADY way up there on the list of greats.

I recently got his jersey (swingman authentic replica....authentic is too expensive for me...geez...does anyone know how the real authentic jerseys are made? Are the numbers and stuff actual, real cloth??) and I will wear it with pride. Wearing a Duncan jersey is like knowing a great underground band that no one knows or appreciates.

[Spider TX]

I never said him being boring was holding him back, it was a different argument altogether. Sorry if they sounded like the same agument, but I will clear it up now. Just made the seperate point about him being boring to watch, that's all.

[mikekim]

I never said any of those things so i guess this is simply your way of waving the white flag, i accept your surrender.

That spider tx guy was a dumbass, best to let him go anyways (maybe if i didn't put this parenthetical comment, this post would make him come storming back to argue with me, haha)

[Spider TX]

I never said any of those things so i guess this is simply your way of waving the white flag, i accept your surrender.

I never surrendered, but arguing with a homer as big as you are is like talking to a brick wall. I can have every valid point in the world, but you will never come down from anything regarding your Spurs boys.

[mikekim]

I never surrendered, but arguing with a homer as big as you are is like talking to a brick wall. I can have every valid point in the world, but you will never come down from anything regarding your Spurs boys.

Okay I re-read the posts. You're entitled to your opinion that he's boring. The argument in this thread that you had w/ that other dude is like arguing about what the best ice cream flavor is. I don't know why you guys bothered. My bad for calling you a dumbass...you guys just wasted a lot of finger strength and some emotion.

[Spider TX]

I agree, but that's really what message boards are all about.

[mikekim]

I guess...

[K-State Spur]

And all I'm saying is Duncan is boring as shit to watch for the vast majority of fans, which is a good part of the reason why the Spurs also get less nationally televised games than some of those other teams.

What the hell are you talking about? We're on national TV all the time. That was a Jazz in the other thread complaining about a lack of TV time. Very few teams (maybe just the Lakers) have had as many games on TNT/ESPN/ABC as the Spurs have over the past 5 years.

[Spider TX]

But factor in over the past 2 per se, the Spurs have lost some of those games to the Suns, Mavs, Heat, Bulls, Cavs.

[Strike]

What does Duncan's entertainment value (or lack thereof to the "casual" fans) have to do with his place among the greatest power forwards to have played?

[dbreiden83080]

I never surrendered, but arguing with a homer as big as you are is like talking to a brick wall. I can have every valid point in the world, but you will never come down from anything regarding your Spurs boys.

You have not made any valid points so far. I already said to you Tim was a better rebounder and defender than Bird, few who watched Bird would have called him a defensive stopper. Plus they both have 3 titles, so your turn start making your case for Bird.

[K-State Spur]

It's redundant because you can basically predict how he will score once he gets the ball at a certain point on the court. Yes, it's frustrating as hell, but it's predictable, and not easily slowed down or stopped.

Yes, he only has about 4 or 5 different moves. But guess what? Very few guys have more than that. Nash is all over the place, I'll grant you that. But Dirk's moves are pretty standard. Amare is quick and athletic, but most of his shots can be put into 3 or 4 different categories at the end of the night. KG/Shaq/Melo have the same few moves that they break out again and again.

[dbreiden83080]

Yes, he only has about 4 or 5 different moves. But guess what? Very few guys have more than that. Nash is all over the place, I'll grant you that. But Dirk's moves are pretty standard. Amare is quick and athletic, but most of his shots can be put into 3 or 4 different categories at the end of the night. KG/Shaq/Melo have the same few moves that they break out again and again.

Nash basically runs under the basket more times then not and looks to create. He was driving me fucking nuts in that series, always dribbling the ball under the hoop over and over.

[Spider TX]

What does Duncan's entertainment value (or lack thereof to the "casual" fans) have to do with his place among the greatest power forwards to have played?

Never made that argument. I already had to clear this up once. They were seperate points, it has no factor in his place amongst the greats.

[K-State Spur]

But factor in over the past 2 per se, the Spurs have lost some of those games to the Suns, Mavs, Heat, Bulls, Cavs.

Those teams were viewed as title contenders as well, so of course they are going to be on TV a lot also.

But I think you'd be surprised. Some of those teams may have gotten more national TV games, but it wasn't by much. The Spurs are still right there as one of the most televised teams in the game, despite being in such a small market.

I haven't read all of your posts on this thread. But saying that Duncan = less TV games is complete crap.

[mikekim]

All I know is...the Spurs play beautiful basketball. I am left in awe sometimes at how smoothly their offense flows and when the system of the offense itself results in a final pass that leads to a wide open jumper or an easy lay-up, I just say, "Wow." (And if I'm watching it in public or with other people, everyone just looks at me kinda weird, esp. when the commentators say NOTHING about it, except "And Horry scores from the baseline" or "Oberto is so crafty.")
EDIT: And of course, it goes without saying that the offense also depends upon Tim to just flat-out dominate with his "boring" moves. His "boring" offensive array of post footwork, pump fakes, crazy hook shots, jumpers, perfect, PERFECT sealing of his man for easy pass and dunks...is what the offense is built around. The attention he demands...regardless of whether the other team doubles (what the Suns had to eventually do) or not (what Pistons try to stick to with Rasheed), he still demands a tremendous amount of attention, which frees up the offense.

And their defense is amazing as well. So many times throughout the Suns' series, I would watch as Nash (or Barbosa or Marion or whoever...but mostly Nash) would manage to get past their man and go towards the paint. Spurs would immediately have a man rotate, and the whole unit on the floor would shift, almost automatically, like clock-work, to compensate for that rotation, leaving Nash with no holes (or at least no easy holes) to work with--when with almost any other team in the league, he would have multiple passing lanes or options to work with (that is the reason for him looking like he was scrambling on offense and repeatedly having to probe the defense and go under the basket just LOOKING desperately for a hole to exploit). That was also the great part of the series...watching Nash work with the little that was given to him and try to make something out of it. That is why I have a lot more respect for Nash now.

And all this about the Spurs is strongly anchored by Duncan. He's the motor, the cpu chip, the whatever thing that is integral to anything analogy, that makes it all work---offense, defense, whatever. Everything hinges on him and it's not some automatic, robotic thing that occurs just because he's a big guy and is just in the game. He is aware of everything that's going on and the little things he does on the court makes the whole thing work. If he makes one false move, if he dribbles one or two more steps towards the baseline or paint, he could mess up the spacing. If he doesn't get deep enough into the paint, the man that doubles onto him would be able to recover quickly enough to the shooter. If he isn't aware of WHERE the doubles come from at all times (cuz they throw doubles from random, different guys just in one possession) and doesn't make the correct pass to swing the ball, that offensive possession is over. If he doesn't sag off his man enough, or comes too early or too quickly with the help, it could throw the whole defensive scheme out the window for that possession.

The Spurs (and Tim Duncan) are a joy to watch...I don't know how to illustrate this point clearly enough.

[Strike]

All I know is...the Spurs play beautiful basketball. I am left in awe sometimes at how smoothly their offense flows and when the system of the offense itself results in a final pass that leads to a wide open jumper or an easy lay-up, I just say, "Wow." (And if I'm watching it in public or with other people, everyone just looks at me kinda weird, esp. when the commentators say NOTHING about it, except "And Horry scores from the baseline" or "Oberto is so crafty.")

And their defense is amazing as well. So many times throughout the Suns' series, I would watch as Nash (or Barbosa or Marion or whoever...but mostly Nash) would manage to get past their man and go towards the paint. Spurs would immediately have a man rotate, and the whole unit on the floor would shift, almost automatically, like clock-work, to compensate for that rotation, leaving Nash with no holes (or at least no easy holes) to work with--when with almost any other team in the league, he would have multiple passing lanes or options to work with (that is the reason for him looking like he was scrambling on offense and repeatedly having to probe the defense and go under the basket just LOOKING desperately for a hole to exploit). That was also the great part of the series...watching Nash work with the little that was given to him and try to make something out of it. That is why I have a lot more respect for Nash now.

And all this about the Spurs is strongly anchored by Duncan. He's the motor, the cpu chip, the whatever thing that is integral to anything analogy, that makes it all work---offense, defense, whatever. Everything hinges on him and it's not some automatic, robotic thing that occurs just because he's a big guy and is just in the game. He is aware of everything that's going on and the little things he does on the court makes the whole thing work. If he makes one false move, if he dribbles one or two more steps towards the baseline or paint, he could mess up the spacing. If he doesn't get deep enough into the paint, the man that doubles onto him would be able to recover quickly enough to the shooter. If he isn't aware of WHERE the doubles come from at all times (cuz they throw doubles from random, different guys just in one possession) and doesn't make the correct pass to swing the ball, that offensive possession is over. If he doesn't sag off his man enough, or comes too early or too quickly with the help, it could throw the whole defensive scheme out the window for that possession.

The Spurs (and Tim Duncan) are a joy to watch...I don't know how to illustrate this point clearly enough.

Exactly. There is so much more to basketball than a pretty behind the back pass or a dunk.

[mikekim]

on another note, i asked this a while back...

Does anyone know what the differences are between a Swingman jersey and a real, authentic jersey (other than the 100 dollar price difference)?? I recently got a Duncan swingman one...I can't bring myself to pay freakin 170 bucks (more w/ shipping and tax) for a jersey no matter how much i like the player.

[Strike]

on another note, i asked this a while back...

Does anyone know what the differences are between a Swingman jersey and a real, authentic jersey (other than the 100 dollar price difference)?? I recently got a Duncan swingman one...I can't bring myself to pay freakin 170 bucks (more w/ shipping and tax) for a jersey no matter how much i like the player.

Everything is sewn in to an authentic. The team name and/or logo, numbers, letters, stripes, etc. It's also thicker and much much more durable.

I once had a David Robinson replica jersey that lasted 2 years. I remember paying about 50 bucks for it. I currently have a Tim Duncan authentic jersey that I've owned since Duncan's rookie year. It still looks brand new and I wear it at least once a month, more often come playoff time. I paid about $150 for it brand new in 1998. It was easily worth the money I spent.

If you want a jersey that will last, spend the extra bucks and get an authentic. I own a Duncan jersey, a Cubs jersey I bought from Wrigley in '92 and a Raiders Tim Brown jersey I bought the year they went to the Super Bowl (and got punked by the Bucs. All authentics. All are in tip top condition. All it takes is a little care and Woolite. Swingman jerseys wear out unless you never wear and/or wash them. And what's the point of that?

Fork over the extra cash. You won't be disappointed.

[darkzero1]

As much as I love Tim Duncan (he is by far my favorite active player and one of my five favorite players of all time), I have to be objective. Got to give the nod to Karl Malone. His statistics are eye-popping, and his consistency was unmatched. No, he doesn't have a championship, but two NBA Finals appearances against the invinsible Jordan Bulls is just as good as two championships, in my book.

[Obstructed_View]

Swingman jerseys wear out unless you never wear and/or wash them.
Actualy, they wear out even if you don't. My wife's Ginobili jersey had the B just come off while it was hanging in the closet. I had to get some adhesive at a craft store and iron it back on. Yelling "GINO ILI" sounds retarded.

[dav4463]

He is damn good, but is so damn boring because he does nothing exciting. Just because a player is good does not always make him fun to watch. In TD's case, he ios not fun to watch. Sorry, just how it is.


A real basketball fan would call it exciting. He dominates with such precision.

If you don't like his game, then you don't like good basketball. Go back to the video games or watch AndOne on TV.

[Obstructed_View]

What he means is Duncan doesn't cry to the media about people being dirty or do pushups on the floor after he dunks.

I have to tell you that Amare's jumpers in game 6 were scintillating.

[dav4463]

Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird. I've seen them both. Both are great scorers. Tim is better inside, Bird is more of an outside shooter. Tim is a much better defender and better rebounder. Bird is a better passer. Both are winners. Stats are very similar. Both are Hall of Fame players.

It is not stupid to compare Tim to Larry. I would bet Larry Bird would agree completely.

[darkzero1]

I don't understand the Bird comparions. Bird was primarily a small forward. Comparing Bird to Duncan is like comparing Duncan to Wilt.

[bobbyjoe]

Bird had to beat Magic and Kareem, 2 of the 5 best players EVER.

Duncan has had to beat a very weak Houston/Sprewell team, crappy Nets team, and a solid Pistons team in 05.

Bird was far, far, far better than Duncan. I agree about the homerism comment. Bird was right up there with MJ.

His bball IQ is unparalleled. He was Robert Horry * 5 in the clutch where Duncan hits clutch FT's with the consistency of Karl Malone. He was like Steve Nash, Stockton, Magic, or other great PG's with his ability to truly make others around him better.

If Bird was in today's NBA? Bar none, he'd be the best player in it.

[x_roux_x]

You close minded Spurs fans are so damn bitter against the past 2 years MVP winners. So many of you dig and scratch for anyways to bash on those 2 GREAT players just because your boy TD didn't perform as well as either of them and get the MVP. NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan, but so many all around the country love to watch Dirk and Nash play. Wonder why. It's because he is so fucking boring, good or not.

I honestly could give a shit about who is more fun to watch...who wins...and who has all the rings mother fucker? All that matters. Step by now.

[polandprzem]

I'm not reading all this thread

But who is the best forward ever?

[Obstructed_View]

Bird had to beat Magic and Kareem, 2 of the 5 best players EVER.

Duncan has had to beat a very weak Houston/Sprewell team, crappy Nets team, and a solid Pistons team in 05.

Bird was far, far, far better than Duncan. I agree about the homerism comment. Bird was right up there with MJ.

His bball IQ is unparalleled. He was Robert Horry * 5 in the clutch where Duncan hits clutch FT's with the consistency of Karl Malone. He was like Steve Nash, Stockton, Magic, or other great PG's with his ability to truly make others around him better.

If Bird was in today's NBA? Bar none, he'd be the best player in it.

Hmm. I wonder how Duncan would have done with no fewer than three hall of famers on his team, not including himself, for the majority of his career.

And two of the three Celtics championships came against the Rockets.

[bobbyjoe]

Right, and those Rockets teams had Moses Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon/Sampson (86). 2 of the best bigs of all time and still vastly tougher competition than what Duncan has had to go through.

Bird's Celtics appeared in FIVE NBA Finals during the 1980's. Three times he faced Showtime. This was an era with Dr. J, Isiah, and some really great NBA teams, not the watered down crud of today's game.

And the argument about Duncan being a better rebounder than Bird is complete hogwash. Duncan is a PF/C and Bird was a pure SF. Bird's rebounding prowess was more rare of a SF than Duncan's prowess as a PF/C. I mean the dude averaged 10.00 rebounds per game in his career in a much tougher era (guys actually made shots back then and scores were 15 ppg higher so there were much lesser boards to go around than in today's NBA where getting 100 points is rare).

Bird was also probably the best FT shooter in NBA history.

Just NO comparison between the 2 players. It's like saying Kobe>MJ

[Obstructed_View]

Right, and those Rockets teams had Moses Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon/Sampson (86). 2 of the best bigs of all time and still vastly tougher competition than what Duncan has had to go through.

Bird's Celtics appeared in FIVE NBA Finals during the 1980's. Three times he faced Showtime. This was an era with Dr. J, Isiah, and some really great NBA teams, not the watered down crud of today's game.
No, you said he had to beat LA. He did once. The other times he beat Houston. You either made a mistake or you were intentionally being misleading.

Duncan's been to three NBA finals and has a chance to go to more in his career with vastly less talent than Bird had beside him. One reason the NBA might be "watered down crud" as you put it is because a few teams had all the talent back then, like the one Bird was on, whereas now it's much more evenly distributed. The competition in general is better from the other teams.

[JamStone]

toss up between Duncan and Scott Hastings

[jmard5]

TD is the best PF to date.

[Mavs<Spurs]

I agree with Obstructed View, you've got to remember who was on Bird's teams that won in 81, 83 and 85. And remember, Bird's only 2 finals mvp trophies were 83 and 85 vs Duncan's 3 already and possibly 4.

Kevin McHale was one of the best low post players of all time. His footwork and moves with his back to the basket were amazing. Then you throw in Robert Parrish another top 50 of all time player.

Add Ainge and DJ.

That is an incredible supporting cast.


If Tim wins his fourth title, then, in my view, I will consider this settled.

03 and 05 already could be pretty decisive. By that time, honestly, Tim was doing almost all of the heavy lifting by himself.

Think about game 7 in the latter part of the third quarter and the beginning of the fourth in 05. Remember this was against a championship Pistons Team with great defense. Tim owned them in the clutch. He came up big when you have to come up big.

He almost had a quadruple double in Game 6 of 03. That is unbelievable.
He had 8 blocked shots and set a new Finals record for blocks.

He had 9 blocked shots to help close out Phoenix.

His defense is just dominating. Add the rebounding in, and the verdict is justified: Duncan > Bird.


And we all know, while some work remains, Spurs are the prohibitive favorites to win it all. And if they do, does anybody doubt that it will be Duncan who will be mvp.

Who else has 3 Finals MVPs? Bird- no only 2. MJ has 6, Magic has 3 and Shaq has 3.

If Tim gets 4 and it certainly looks like this is going to be the outcome, Then MJ and Tim are the only players to win more than 3 finals mvps.

And it is hard to argue with the fact that Finals MVPs are the best single measure of skill and dominance of a player.

[bobbyjoe]

In what areas does Duncan outclass Bird? Not many.

The only one is as a shotblocker and one on one defender.

Bird wasn't a great on ball defender, but he was an excellent team defender playing passing lanes and getting steals. A lot like Ginobili is today. Just very savvy and tremendous anticipation.

Scorer? Bird gets a huge edge

Passer? Bird by FAR

Rebounder? I've already stated that a SF who could average 10.00 RPG is much more rare than Duncan being an 11-12 RPG guy in an era of crappy FG% shooting

Clutch Go to guy? Not even a discussion

Intangibles? Bird. Bird was arguably the smartest bball player ever.

Your argument about Duncan playing with less talent than Bird is silly. Yes, that is true, but Bird had to beat guys like Magic/Kareem, Isiah, Dr J, Hakeem to win his rings. I mean that's 5 of the top 15 players in NBA history he had to battle with on a consistent basis. Yes, he had more talent, but he also faced competition infinitely better.

Do you honestly think that anyone besides a Spurs homer would rank Tim Duncan over Larry Legend? Do you think TD is the best NBA player EVER or something?

[SpursIndonesia]

Bird had to beat Magic and Kareem, 2 of the 5 best players EVER.

Duncan has had to beat a very weak Houston/Sprewell team, crappy Nets team, and a solid Pistons team in 05.

Bird was far, far, far better than Duncan. I agree about the homerism comment. Bird was right up there with MJ.

His bball IQ is unparalleled. He was Robert Horry * 5 in the clutch where Duncan hits clutch FT's with the consistency of Karl Malone. He was like Steve Nash, Stockton, Magic, or other great PG's with his ability to truly make others around him better.

If Bird was in today's NBA? Bar none, he'd be the best player in it.

LOL, that solid Piston teams was the defending champ who destroyed the 4 HOF'ers Lakers the year before. :lol

[bobbyjoe]

I agree with Obstructed View, you've got to remember who was on Bird's teams that won 3 trophies.

Kevin McHale was one of the best low post players of all time. His footwork and moves with his back to the basket were amazing. Then you throw in Robert Parrish another top 50 of all time player.

Add Ainge and DJ.

That is an incredible supporting cast.


If Tim wins his fourth title, then, in my view, I will consider this settled.

03 and 05 already could be pretty decisive. By that time, honestly, Tim was doing almost all of the heavy lifting by himself.

Think about game 7 in the latter part of the third quarter and the beginning of the fourth in 05. Remember this was against a championship Pistons Team with great defense. Tim owned them in the clutch. He came up big when you have to come up big.

He almost had a quadruple double in Game 6 of 03. That is unbelievable.
He had 8 blocked shots and set a new Finals record for blocks.

He had 9 blocked shots to help close out Phoenix.

His defense is just dominating. Add the rebounding in, and the verdict is justified: Duncan > Bird.


And we all know, while some work remains, Spurs are the prohibitive favorites to win it all. And if they do, does anybody doubt that it will be Duncan who will be mvp.

Who else has 3 Finals MVPs? Bird- no. MJ has 6, Magic has 3 and Shaq has 3.

If Tim gets 4 and it certainly looks like this is going to be the outcome, Then MJ and Tim are the only players to win more than 3 finals mvps.

And it is hard to argue with the fact that Finals MVPs are the best single measure of skill and dominance of a player.

Duncan was 1 of 7 against the Pistons from the FT line in 4th Q Game 5 of the NBA Finals. He then missed a tipin at the buzzer to win it, a point blank shot that could have won it in regulation.

He shot 41% from the field that series. Calling Duncan "clutch" in this series is just asinine. If not for Horry's clutch 4th Q in that game, we're looking back at Duncan's play there as a historic choke job. Duncan played pporly that series and Manu or Horry should have been MVP or maybe even Bruce Bowen.

Larry Bird AVERAGED a triple double in the 1986 Finals.

You continue to say he's a better rebounder than Duncan when that's ridiculous. I can name 10-15 PF's/C's in NBA history who've rebounded more than TD, but name me 1-2 SF's who've rebounded more than Bird?

Since Duncan has more rings than Wilt, is he >Wilt?!? You are citing team successes in the context of a debate about individuals.

[Obstructed_View]

Do you honestly think that anyone besides a Spurs homer would rank Tim Duncan over Larry Legend? Do you think TD is the best NBA player EVER or something?
I never said Duncan was better than Bird. In fact, I don't recall saying one negative thing about Bird. I'll tell you that he was a better one-on-one defender than people give him credit for, including you. I'm not the one making fellacious arguments laced with hypotheticals about who would have done what or how one era's players are better than another's to say why he's not a great player. All I suggested is that many of your arguments are either misleading or complete made-up bullshit simply because you are possibly just a Lakers fan who doesn't like Tim Duncan and wants to be a pseudo-intellectual troll.

Is Duncan better than Bird? Not yet. Is he in the discussion to a far greater extent than you intimate? Absolutely.

[SpursIndonesia]

IMHO, in the end, it's all about the bling. If TD can get his 4th ring and final MVP, it's settled, he's better than Larry, end of discussion.

Larry might have it harder in getting his rings back then, when the talent pool wasn't too diluted as of today's NBA, but he got helps from HOF'ers in his team, so it's a wash fact that Duncan isn't that lucky to begin with.

[Mavs<Spurs]

In what areas does Duncan outclass Bird? Not many.

The only one is as a shotblocker and one on one defender.

Bird wasn't a great on ball defender, but he was an excellent team defender playing passing lanes and getting steals. A lot like Ginobili is today. Just very savvy and tremendous anticipation.

Scorer? Bird gets a huge edge

Passer? Bird by FAR

Rebounder? I've already stated that a SF who could average 10.00 RPG is much more rare than Duncan being an 11-12 RPG guy in an era of crappy FG% shooting

Clutch Go to guy? Not even a discussion

Intangibles? Bird. Bird was arguably the smartest bball player ever.

Your argument about Duncan playing with less talent than Bird is silly. Yes, that is true, but Bird had to beat guys like Magic/Kareem, Isiah, Dr J, Hakeem to win his rings. I mean that's 5 of the top 15 players in NBA history he had to battle with on a consistent basis. Yes, he had more talent, but he also faced competition infinitely better.

Do you honestly think that anyone besides a Spurs homer would rank Tim Duncan over Larry Legend? Do you think TD is the best NBA player EVER or something?

First, in basketball, there's defense, offense and rebounding, mainly (I suppose there are intangibles, but these are the aspects to consider).

On offense, the two are about equal. Obviously, you can play inside out with Tim Duncan, force double teams and spread the floor better. Mostly, you would be better off starting a basketball team from scratch with Tim Ducan instead of Larry Bird, even when we are just talking about offense.

In terms of rebounding, Duncan has the advantage and I think we all know that. Obviously, physical defense was allowed back then and so there were more rebounds for Larry to grab. Now, we have different rules which give offensive players advantages (hence, the high shooting percentages). Nevertheless, Duncan has the advantage.

In terms of defense, it is not even close. Tim Duncan is one of the best defensive players to ever play basketball.

So, it is really 3-0, for Duncan (or 2-0 and consider offense tied if you like).


The Duncan Spurs of 2003 beat the 3 time defending champs with Shaq and Kobe.
The Duncan Spurs of 2005 beat the defending champs.

Dr. J was really good, but not in this class.

Beating Magic, Kareen, Worthy and Scott would have been difficult, but with Bird's supporting cast, he had the team to do it.
Remember Isaiah beat Magic and Jordan both and Isaiah was the best player on that team. So, while it was difficult, it was achievable without being a top 5 player of all time.

Defense and the ability to make those around you better by demanding double teams as a low post player makes Tim more valuable to a team than Larry Bird.

Finals mvps, while not the whole story, are the best single measure of the talent level of a great player.
Tim has 3, Bird has 2 and that's now. Tim still has 4 great years left.
And this year he is likely to add another finals mvp trophy.

4-2. That's 200 % or twice as many. And that means Duncan must be considered the better player.

[Sec24Row7]

Rebounds in Bird's era are inflated by 2-3 a game because of the pace of every game...

The fact that the spurs play the pace that they do makes rebounds harder to get because there are fewer potentially out there...

[bobbyjoe]

Bird was much better than Duncan OFFENSIVELY.

Bird scored more and was a more efficient scorer. Bird was a 90% career FT shooter. Despite shooting 3 pointers which are lower % shots, his career FG% is virtually identical to Duncan's.

But mainly, Bird was just a much better offensive creator for teammates. His court vision and passing were even batter than Steve Nash's.

Also, late in games, SA frequently draws up plays for Manu or Parker to break down people and create shots. Part of this is because Duncan is very shaky as a FT shooter.

With Boston, imagine Robert Horry who could create a shot and you have Larry Bird in the clutch. His ability to take over games late in crunch time was a quality very few have shared (and I'm guessing you didnt watch him play from your comments or are just ridiculously biased). This is a quality you see in guys like Magic, MJ, Bird, but Duncan for all his assets, just does not have.

Defensively, yes, Duncan>Bird.

However, as a rebounder you couldnt be more wrong. Bird played in an era where NBA scoring was literally about 15ppg higher than today's NBA. FG%'s were much higher then so there were less rebounds to go around. Yet, Bird's career averages are 10.0 RPG which is just exceptional for a Small forward.

Can you even name me one Small forward in the history of the NBA who averaged more than 10.0 RPG for his career? I can name you several who exceeded Duncan's 11.9 RPG at his position.

Finals MVP's by the way are absolutely not the best single measure of a talent level of a great player. By that logic, Chauncey Billups > Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, David Robinson.

[duncan2k5]

i dont get why spurs fans care when ppl say tim duncan or our team is boring. i used to get defensive...but ive come to realize...WHO CARES? just because someone thinks we are boring doens't make us any worse. i could give two shyts if no one but spur fans watch us.

[duncan2k5]

bird is better than tim duncan...lets not go overboard here. duncan is better defensively...but bird blows him out the water in every other category...including intangibles.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Duncan was 1 of 7 against the Pistons from the FT line in 4th Q Game 5 of the NBA Finals. He then missed a tipin at the buzzer to win it, a point blank shot that could have won it in regulation. We are not talking about a set shot. Tim Duncan had 26 points and 19 rebounds. That is clutch. Horry had 21 points. 26 > 21 (and that was Horry's only really great game). Manu in that game shot 5 of 16 from the field (about 32 %) and garnered a grand total of 15 points.


He shot 41% from the field that series. Calling Duncan "clutch" in this series is just asinine. If not for Horry's clutch 4th Q in that game, we're looking back at Duncan's play there as a historic choke job. Duncan played pporly that series and Manu or Horry should have been MVP or maybe even Bruce Bowen.

Horry had about 18 minutes of inspired basketball. And it was in game 5. His numbers for that series just don't support the point.

Tim was the one who created the open shots for Manu as Manu admitted in the post game interview. Did Bruce even average double figures.
Everybody (except you) knows that the focal point of this offense is Tim Duncan.

So, that's just stupid. He averaged 21 points and 14 rebounds a game. Against a team that had Ben and Rasheed Wallace as their front line. And who was the main person that they were trying to stop?

You're just trying to be ignorant.

First, that was against one of the best defensive teams that this league has ever seen. Second, do you remember Tim's numbers for that game?
Are you completely clueless?

Larry Bird AVERAGED a triple double in the 1986 Finals.

You continue to say he's a better rebounder than Duncan when that's ridiculous.

Huh? You might want to rethink that one!


I can name 10-15 PF's/C's in NBA history who've rebounded more than TD, but name me 1-2 SF's who've rebounded more than Bird?

We're comparing them to each other. Low post players, due to the nature of the game, have had a dominant impact upon the game.

Since Duncan has more rings than Wilt, is he >Wilt?!? You are citing team successes in the context of a debate about individuals.

Uh, yeah.

In the final analysis, you're trying to be stupid.

[picnroll]

This futher discredits what you have to say. Duncan is very good, but not Bird good. Your comments might be the most homeristic I've seen.
If you put Bird on the Spurs in palce of Duncan would the Spurs have the last two rings and be going for a third. Me, I don't think so. They may not lose offense, maybe a little better but their defense would NOWHERE what it is today. Why is it 95% of NBA "fans" never value the importnce of the defensive side of the court when looking at players and their impact. In fact that's why when you look at MVP putting Nash or Dirk over Duncan is a joke. Where do those two stand when it comes to naming NBA all defensive teams? 20th team? Maybe Nash 27th?

[bobbyjoe]

Uh, yeah.

In the final analysis, you're trying to be stupid.

Like I said, the list of PF's/C's with similar or higher average RPG than Duncan is without question higher than the # of SF's with a similar or higher average RPG than Larry Bird.

Bird was a better rebounder relative to his Small Forward position than Duncan was relative to his PF position. In the end, that's the only fair way to compare them.

[bobbyjoe]

If you put Bird on the Spurs in palce of Duncan would the Spurs have the last two rings and be going for a third. Me, I don't think so. They may not lose offense, maybe a little better but their defense would NOWHERE what it is today. Why is it 95% of NBA "fans" never value the importnce of the defensive side of the court when looking at players and their impact. In fact that's why when you look at MVP putting Nash or Dirk over Duncan is a joke. Where do those two stand when it comes to naming NBA all defensive teams? 20th team? Maybe Nash 27th?

That's not the right way to look at it.

If Bird was on the Spurs, they'd have built the team around him differently than they have around Duncan to complement his skill set.

If Bird was in today's NBA and there was a draft of all players, Bird would be the #1 pick because he'd be the best player in the NBA.

Duncan's great but some of this homerism is out of hand. There's no shame in "only" being the best PF of all time and not the best overall Forward of all time.

Bird's defense gets ripped a lot by people who didn't watch him and think he was some "slow white guy". His defensive style was just like Ginobili's. Whatever he lacked in quicks, he more than made up for with instinct, anticipation, and serious hustle and intensity.

I hope you weren't implying he was at the level of Nash or Dirk defensively, because that's just crazy. Ginobili is the best comparison amongst active NBA players and I doubt you consider him a poor defender.

[bresilhac]

Nah. Bird's pretty untouchable there. What separates Bird from every other forward in NBA history was the fact that he was better than Horry in the clutch, even with every team throwing everything they had at him at the ends of games. Bird at anything less than top 3 all-time is crazy to me.

I'm priveleged to be old enough to have seen Bird's career in its entirety and without question Larry Legend was a great forward. But as far as a complete, fundametally sound, totally dominant all around threat on the floor for his entire career save for times he was injured, there is no question that Tim is the greatest PF of all time. This isn't even including the Championship accomplishments. If Tim wins another couple of Titles before he is done, which is very possible, he may go down as the greatest player of all time. MJ included.

[Sec24Row7]

I'm priveleged to be old enough to have seen Bird's career in its entirety and without question Larry Legend was a great forward. But as far as a complete, fundametally sound, totally dominant all around threat on the floor for his entire career save for times he was injured, there is no question that Tim is the greatest PF of all time. This isn't even including the Championship accomplishments. If Tim wins another couple of Titles before he is done, which is very possible, he may go down as the greatest player of all time. MJ included.

Thats taking it way too far...

[bresilhac]

Thats taking it way too far...

Is it?

[picnroll]

That's not the right way to look at it.

1. If Bird was on the Spurs, they'd have built the team around him differently than they have around Duncan to complement his skill set.

2. If Bird was in today's NBA and there was a draft of all players, Bird would be the #1 pick because he'd be the best player in the NBA.

3. Duncan's great but some of this homerism is out of hand. There's no shame in "only" being the best PF of all time and not the best overall Forward of all time.

4. Bird's defense gets ripped a lot by people who didn't watch him and think he was some "slow white guy". His defensive style was just like Ginobili's. Whatever he lacked in quicks, he more than made up for with instinct, anticipation, and serious hustle and intensity.

5. I hope you weren't implying he was at the level of Nash or Dirk defensively, because that's just crazy. Ginobili is the best comparison amongst active NBA players and I doubt you consider him a poor defender.
1. Far, far easier to build a team around a dominant post player, offense and defense. Look what they built around Bird, 50 all time greatest players. Granted the Celtics went up against more stacked teams but that's neutralized, maybe more than neutralized, by the equity now and that Duncan has to carry the laod more nights in, night out. Basically Celtics could coast until the Eastern finals or even NBA finals.

2. No Oden would be. Coming out of college Bird didn't have thephysical attributes to awe.

3. Were looking apples to oranges. People downgrade Duncan as best saying he should be considered a center. You're giving Bird a bit of a pass saying he should be conisdered a SF when it comes to a player's impact defense-wise. Bottomline here, whole package offense/defense I'd take Duncan.

4. Bird was an above average defender because of his guile, strength, tenacity. I think he'd have a bit more trouble with todays no touch rules. But nobody can ever make the case he could be the cornerstone of an NBA best defensive team.

5. No I wasn't. I'm implying that when you look at impact on a team, both ends of the court making Nash or Dirk an MVP over Duncan is a joke.

[Sec24Row7]

Is it?

Yeah... and I would venture to say that 95% of people here would agree with me...

Kareem won 6 championships 6 MVP's made 19 all star teams and averaged 24+ points and 11 rebounds a game for 20 years...


He's not even second on a lot of people's list of greatest players... you want to leapfrog Duncan in front of that?

I havent even said the J word yet and timmy has 3 championships and 4 MVP's to go... and he better pick up his scoring by 8 points a game for the next TEN YEARS to get to more than a 24 ppg average.

Edited: 19 all star teams

[Sec24Row7]

1. Far, far easier to build a team around a dominant post player, offense and defense. Look what they built around Bird, 50 all time greatest players. Granted the Celtics went up against more stacked teams but that's neutralized, maybe more than neutralized, by the equity now and that Duncan has to carry the laod more nights in, night out. Basically Celtics could coast until the Eastern finals or even NBA finals.

2. No Oden would be. Coming out of college Bird didn't have thephysical attributes to awe.

3. Were looking apples to oranges. People downgrade Duncan as best saying he should be considered a center. You're giving Bird a bit of a pass saying he should be conisdered a SF when it comes to a player's impact defense-wise. Bottomline here, whole package offense/defense I'd take Duncan.

4. Bird was an above average defender because of his guile, strength, tenacity. I think he'd have a bit more trouble with todays no touch rules. But nobody can ever make the case he could be the cornerstone of an NBA best defensive team.

5. No I wasn't. I'm implying that when you look at impact on a team, both ends of the court making Nash or Dirk an MVP over Duncan is a joke.

You also have to add in the fact that Bird is considered about 20% better than he actually was because he is White Guy.

[bresilhac]

Yeah... and I would venture to say that 95% of people here would agree with me...

Kareem won 6 championships 6 MVP's made 20 all star teams and averaged 24+ points and 11 rebounds a game for 20 years...


He's not even second on a lot of people's list of greatest players... you want to leapfrog Duncan in front of that?

I havent even said the J word yet and timmy has 3 championships and 4 MVP's to go... and he better pick up his scoring by 8 points a game for the next TEN YEARS to get to more than a 24 ppg average.

Ok, good points. But, the fact that Kareem played so long and was so effective brings up an interesting point. What if Tim could be that effective for another 10 years? How would that equate to Championships? Or at least being in contention for championships? Given the tendency of this organization to make key personnel moves over time how many Championships could Tim Duncan win before he's through? 6, 7? I get charged up just thinking about it.

[GrandeDavid]

I think if Tim leads the Spurs to a championship this year, he goes down as the greatest power forward of all time, Bird included.

[Sec24Row7]

...

Bird was their 3...

[Hook Dem]

Then you are wrong, because I live in Dallas, a city that hates both the Spurs and Suns, and everyone here cant stand to watch Duncan, but still love to watch Amare because of how he scores. And in Phoenix where I'm from, they enjoy to watch someone like Dirk because he scores in many different ways.
Imagine that!!!!! Mavs fans & Suns fans in bed together! :rolleyes

[Jimcs50]

By the time all is said and done, TD will be the best power forward of all time. He has to get more points and rebounds to get into Malone's and Barkley's neighborhood, then he will have qualitative and quantitative evidence to back up that claim.

The thing is, I do not think Malone would be in this conversation, had he not played with John Stockton, his whole career. TD has not needed any one particular player to make him better, a great sysyem and supporting cast, but not any one player.

[Sec24Row7]

By the time all is said and done, TD will be the best power forward of all time. He has to get more points and rebounds to get into Malone's and Barkley's neighborhood, then he will have qualitative and quantitative evidence to back up that claim.

The thing is, I do not think Malone would be in this conversation, had he not played with John Stockton, his whole career. TD has not needed any one particular player to make him better, a great sysyem and supporting cast, but not any one player.


I have a hard time putting Karl Malone in Duncan's League... His numbers are inflated just like Stoudemire's because of all the layups and Dunks he got from playing with a first ballot no brainer Hall of Famer point guard.

Duncan is a more skilled player, has led his team to the highest winning percentage of any team in a major sport over 10 years in DECADES... has won three championships as the best player and focus of the opposing team's defense... and has three finals MVP's

Malone has done none of those things... He's scored more points than Duncan...

Wooptie...

[Jimcs50]

I have a hard time putting Karl Malone in Duncan's League... His numbers are inflated just like Stoudemire's because of all the layups and Dunks he got from playing with a first ballot no brainer Hall of Famer point guard.

Duncan is a more skilled player, has led his team to the highest winning percentage of any team in a major sport over 10 years in DECADES... has won three championships as the best player and focus of the opposing team's defense... and has three finals MVP's

Malone has done none of those things... He's scored more points than Duncan...

Wooptie...


a leading rebounder too, with over 14,000 rebs....that is impressive, you have to give him credit for that, TD needs about 5000 more to catch him....and if you notice, I did talk about the benefit of playing with JS, yes?

[Sec24Row7]

He played on a team that scored 54 points in a finals game...

[Jimcs50]

He played on a team that scored 54 points in a finals game...


That was against a Bulls' team that had won 5 championships, and they came within a last second shot of taking that very same team to a game 7.

[ShoogarBear]

Duncan is boring . . . if you don't know jack shit about basketball.

[Sec24Row7]

That was against a Bulls' team that had won 5 championships, and they came within a last second shot of taking that very same team to a game 7.


I dont give a shit who it was against... That's pathetic...

[pwilliam]

And the argument about Duncan being a better rebounder than Bird is complete hogwash. Duncan is a PF/C and Bird was a pure SF. Bird's rebounding prowess was more rare of a SF than Duncan's prowess as a PF/C. I mean the dude averaged 10.00 rebounds per game in his career in a much tougher era (guys actually made shots back then and scores were 15 ppg higher so there were much lesser boards to go around than in today's NBA where getting 100 points is rare).

you are completely wrong on your logic. actually back then there were MORE rebounds than today. When Bird averaged 11 rpg in 1982-83 (his highest), he had a rebound rate of 15.7, while Duncan has averaged a 19 rebound rate in his prime. and please remember larry bird is 6'9, only 2 inches shorter than duncan.

Antoine Walker (6'8) averaged a rebound rate of 15 in his first two years, and i think no one label him as a great rebounder. so anyone saying bird is a better rebounder than duncan is just saying that Walker is a great rebounder.

[bobbyjoe]

I have a hard time putting Karl Malone in Duncan's League... His numbers are inflated just like Stoudemire's because of all the layups and Dunks he got from playing with a first ballot no brainer Hall of Famer point guard.

Duncan is a more skilled player, has led his team to the highest winning percentage of any team in a major sport over 10 years in DECADES... has won three championships as the best player and focus of the opposing team's defense... and has three finals MVP's

Malone has done none of those things... He's scored more points than Duncan...

Wooptie...

He's also 2-0 lifetime in the playoffs against Duncan.

In 04 WCSF, Malone frustrated Duncan with his physicality and that was at age 40.

[samikeyp]

Personally I don't think you should compare two players careers until both are over. I do think though that Malone and Duncan have each done one thing that is the same. I think they both re-defined their positions. Malone did it first then Duncan has done it since. Not a slight on either guy.

IMO, when Duncan is done, he will be considered the best PF ever.

[ducks]

He is damn good, but is so damn boring because he does nothing exciting. Just because a player is good does not always make him fun to watch. In TD's case, he ios not fun to watch. Sorry, just how it is.
he got mad and duncan in game 6

[picnroll]

He's also 2-0 lifetime in the playoffs against Duncan.

In 04 WCSF, Malone frustrated Duncan with his physicality and that was at age 40.
Having watched that series many times what the refs allowed Malone to get away with wasa travesty beginning in game three. Malone had one move that was REPEATEDLY allowed where, when Duncan would go up for a shot, Malone would shove into him pushing him backwards, making the it look like he, Malone, was releasing to go upcourt. The shot ineviably fell short.

Interesting that that is the only time in their many years of matching up that Duncan didn't pretty much bitch slap Malone. It's not a coincidence that the Spurs complete ownage of Utah pretty much commenced with Duncan donning the silver and black.

[samikeyp]

He is damn good, but is so damn boring because he does nothing exciting. Just because a player is good does not always make him fun to watch. In TD's case, he ios not fun to watch. Sorry, just how it is.

no..that is how it is in your opinion....doesn't make it the truth.

And before you bounce back with the expected "your opinion doesn't make it the truth either" I am not saying it does.

[Sec24Row7]

He's also 2-0 lifetime in the playoffs against Duncan.

In 04 WCSF, Malone frustrated Duncan with his physicality and that was at age 40.


Ok... because that was the Series... Malone vs Duncan

Let's not forget the other 2.5 first ballot hall of famers in that series...

and Duncan's rookie year?

ROFL...

[bobbyjoe]

you are completely wrong on your logic. actually back then there were MORE rebounds than today. When Bird averaged 11 rpg in 1982-83 (his highest), he had a rebound rate of 15.7, while Duncan has averaged a 19 rebound rate in his prime. and please remember larry bird is 6'9, only 2 inches shorter than duncan.

Antoine Walker (6'8) averaged a rebound rate of 15 in his first two years, and i think no one label him as a great rebounder. so anyone saying bird is a better rebounder than duncan is just saying that Walker is a great rebounder.

Walker's first 2 years he was on a crap team with a weak frontcourt so his reb #'s were inflated.

Bird played alongside 2 great bigmen in Parish and McHale and still corralled 10.0 RPG for his career. With that frontcourt, Boston doesn't need him to be a major rebounder and yet he still was. The guy was great in all facets of the game because of his competitiveness. In Bird's first 3 years, he was at 13 rebounds a game in the playoffs!!!

Again, name me some Small Forwards with a higher career RPG than Larry Bird.

What's next, are you going to say that because Duncan was a better player than Magic Johnson because he got more rebounds, never mind that Magic was a PG?

[MadDog73]

Who cares about the past?

Duncan is the most dominant player in the NBA right now.

Not "the best power forward", the best player. Period.

Shaq = too old

LeBron = not there yet

Amare = LOL

I'd like to see somone argue there is a better player in the NBA currently...

[Sec24Row7]

Walker's first 2 years he was on a crap team with a weak frontcourt so his reb #'s were inflated.

Bird played alongside 2 great bigmen in Parish and McHale and still corralled 10.0 RPG for his career. With that frontcourt, Boston doesn't need him to be a major rebounder and yet he still was. The guy was great in all facets of the game because of his competitiveness. In Bird's first 3 years, he was at 13 rebounds a game in the playoffs!!!

Again, name me some Small Forwards with a higher career RPG than Larry Bird.

What's next, are you going to say that because Duncan was a better player than Magic Johnson because he got more rebounds, never mind that Magic was a PG?


No i think that 5 titles 3 finals MVP's and 2nd all time in assists might stop us before we got there...

[samikeyp]

Bird and Duncan both played forward but in two totally different styles. Larry was a 3, TD is a 4. Why compare two different positions?

[bobbyjoe]

Having watched that series many times what the refs allowed Malone to get away with wasa travesty beginning in game three. Malone had one move that was REPEATEDLY allowed where, when Duncan would go up for a shot, Malone would shove into him pushing him backwards, making the it look like he, Malone, was releasing to go upcourt. The shot ineviably fell short.

Interesting that that is the only time in their many years of matching up that Duncan didn't pretty much bitch slap Malone. It's not a coincidence that the Spurs complete ownage of Utah pretty much commenced with Duncan donning the silver and black.

Well, yes, Malone was very physical with Duncan. That's playoff basketball, right? Isn't that what the mantra has been here when Nash/George Karl, etc have complained about Bruce Bowen.

Malone really frustrated Duncan that series defensively. I thought, especially after Games 1 and 2, that SA just had the better team, but Malone's containment of Duncan in Games 3-6 with the increased physicality was a major factor in that series outcome.

And your comments about Duncan bitchslapping Malone are not so accurate. When the Jazz faced SA, their strategy was to put Malone on DRob and Ostertag on Duncan. Yes, Duncan did rip Ostertag a new one.

Also, let's not kid ourselves. The Jazz declined about the same time Duncan entered the league. In Duncan's first yr, they made the Finals, going through SA in the playoffs. Then Utah started their decline and hasn't made it back to the WCF till today.

Duncan has had a better career than Malone and if starting a team I would take TD over Malone. But to say Duncan bitchslapped Malone when the playoff tally was 0-2 is a reach.

Malone was the best PF of all time. Duncan should be compared with Centers because that's the way he really plays the game for the most part. Malone played like a prototype PF and Duncan is either a C or a PF/C.

[samikeyp]

Malone was the best PF of all time.

Yes he was....to me, Duncan assumes that title when he retires.

[picnroll]

Well, yes, Malone was very physical with Duncan. That's playoff basketball, right? Isn't that what the mantra has been here when Nash/George Karl, etc have complained about Bruce Bowen.

Nope, that was a foul that Malone was never called on. They just pretended he was releasing to go up court when he was actually running right through Duncan on the shot. Haven't ever seen anything allowed so consistently before or since. There was no way Malone could touch Duncan defensivell\y legimately or even with physical "playoff" basketball. Malone used to play Duncan man up in Utah. He got some slap down steals but not many and that was it. Only in that series against LA did the refs decide to look the other way,

[Cry Havoc]

I never said him being boring was holding him back, it was a different argument altogether. Sorry if they sounded like the same agument, but I will clear it up now. Just made the seperate point about him being boring to watch, that's all.

What did you say? I can't hear you with these nine blocks in my house. They're pretty loud.

[Nikos]

Actually I think Duncan is definitely comparable to Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. His defense puts him the same caliber of player. Larry and Magic were certainly superior on offense, but I think Duncan HUGE defensive edge puts him in the same sentence. Actually I think you can argue either way that Magic/Larry are superior or inferior to Tim.

Duncan is no slouch on offense either. No he isn't as 'clutch', but there have been times when Magic and Larry have also been "unclutch". The bottom line is Larry and Magic are better offensive players in general.

[BigBeezie]

Tim is easily the best PF to ever play the game. Heck, if not for a Jacque Vaughn foul, Duncan would hold another playoff record for blocks.

[BlackFlagg]

Duncan's one of those guys who makes it look easy. You don't see him doing much, then suddenly he has 20-25+ points and 10 rebounds. I suppose some would consider that "boring," but I call it "subtle." He's a study in professionalism and skill, which is why he's so respected by other players in the league.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Did you guys see the shot he took at the end of the game? the hook? I mean, that's true bastketball. Consider only few players in the league can make that shot at anytime, then add that it was a crucial shot.

[crazyfool42]

every time someone dogs the spurs that they are "boring" or say they are not the best, the spurs seem to make them eat their words.
if you cant beat, em' join em'. at least until the finals. then everyone will pick the pistons or the medias darling Lebron.

spurs sure make a lot of people look stupid at the end the year...
looks like G anthony is tired of that :lol

[peskypesky]

Tim is undoubtedly the greatest PF of all time, and I think he's getting close to being the best forward period. If he gets another Championship ring and another Finals MVP, I think he passes Bird. He's already passed Barkley and Malone.

How anyone can call his game boring is beyond me. Nine blocks in the last game and he's boring to watch?

[atxrocker]

How anyone can call his game boring is beyond me. Nine blocks in the last game and he's boring to watch?


Tim is a very good player, and he's great at what he does. He truly is the "big fundamental" . That said, he is extremely boring to watch. Easily the most boring superstar in the league. How anyone can find him exciting or fun to watch is beyond me.

[violentkitten]

yeah, he's pretty boring if you're not into seeing your favorite team win.

[dbreiden83080]

Tim is a very good player, and he's great at what he does. He truly is the "big fundamental" . That said, he is extremely boring to watch. Easily the most boring superstar in the league. How anyone can find him exciting or fun to watch is beyond me.

Because he has no flaws in his game, FT's is the only hiccup he has and he is not awful at them like Shaq. Great on offense/Defense, great leader he does it all in a classy and elegant way. Watching guys like Dirk and Vince Carter who have massive holes in their games is not fun because i see as clear as day all those areas they suck at.

[samikeyp]

Tim is a very good player, and he's great at what he does. He truly is the "big fundamental" . That said, he is extremely boring to watch. Easily the most boring superstar in the league. How anyone can find him exciting or fun to watch is beyond me.

If he played for Sacramento...you wouldn't have a problem watching him.

[ATXSPUR]

You close minded Spurs fans are so damn bitter against the past 2 years MVP winners. So many of you dig and scratch for anyways to bash on those 2 GREAT players just because your boy TD didn't perform as well as either of them and get the MVP. NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan, but so many all around the country love to watch Dirk and Nash play. Wonder why. It's because he is so fucking boring, good or not.

I dont care as long as we win. I gaurantee you seeing those buckets going down is not boring for Spurs fans.

[samikeyp]

NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan

I live in Lansing Michigan and fully enjoy watching the Spurs play.

My 3 best friends live in Dallas, OKC and DC and all love the Spurs.

Hell probably half the Spurs fans on this board live outside of San Antonio.


lying to back up your point....sad.

[dbreiden83080]

I live in Lansing Michigan and fully enjoy watching the Spurs play.

My 3 best friends live in Dallas, OKC and DC and all love the Spurs.

Hell probably half the Spurs fans on this board live outside of San Antonio.


lying to back up your point....sad.

I live in NY am a huge Duncan/Spurs fan shell out the 180 bucks for NBA league pass every year just for the Spurs.

[Yell_42]

BUY IT OR SELL IT

He called him "The best power forward that the league has ever seen." H

.


LOL

Umm Karl Malone anyone?


Greg Anthony was obviously ghetto raised. Or has a bad memory.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

How many rings does Malone have? Thought so.

Duncan > Malone

[dbreiden83080]

LOL

Umm Karl Malone anyone?


Greg Anthony was obviously ghetto raised. Or has a bad memory.

It is close but fair or unfair Duncan has the rep of being a champion and a career winner Malone does not have that rep.

[Yell_42]

How many rings does Malone have? Thought so.

Duncan > Malone


Luc Longley > Iverson and Anthony combined



See the logic? Didnt think so

[dbreiden83080]

Luc Longley > Iverson and Anthony combined



See the logic? Didnt think so

Retarded!!

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Luc Longley > Iverson and Anthony combined



See the logic? Didnt think so


thats a true statement. Longley was the man.

Luc Longley + Andrew Gaze = NBA champions

Karl Malone + John Stockton = ringless

[Yell_42]

thats a true statement. Longley was the man.

Luc Longley + Andrew Gaze = NBA champions

Karl Malone + John Stockton = ringless


Denver Nuggets = clueless


Shouldnt they be overtaking the Jazz for the Northwest lead about now after that awesome trade? :rolleyes

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

oh, and about Ai + Melo....... how long have the played together, and how long did Malone and Stockton play together? Thanks very much. :smokin

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Denver Nuggets = clueless


Shouldnt they be overtaking the Jazz for the Northwest lead about now after that awesome trade? :rolleyes


Yeh, 4get about the suspensions, injuries and time to get team chemistry. Next year will be the real test in the NW.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Just keep telling us that Malone is better than Duncan, that pretty much sums up your bball IQ :smokin

[picnroll]

LOL

Umm Karl Malone anyone?


Greg Anthony was obviously ghetto raised. Or has a bad memory.
The guy who choked in two finals?

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Put Laker gear onthe spurs starting fiveand they will automatically be percieved as exciting.

[anonymous coward]

duncan is...body up the defender, little hook/one hand shot, again, again, again, faul...ft's, ocational bank shot, ocational jumper. decent blocker, bad 1 on 1 defender.
OVERRATED...MONOTONOUS...CLUTCHLESS...BORING...
DUNCAN AND THE SPURS ARENT CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDERS W/O MANU'S MAGIC AND CLUTCHNESS!
I HATE HOW THE PEOPLE GIVE HIM ALL THE CREDIT, LIKE IF THE SPURS WERE ALL DUNCAN.
THE DUNCAN'S VALUE TO THE SPURS EQUALS TO MANU'S VALUE! :pctoss

[Agloco]

Tim is a very good player, and he's great at what he does. He truly is the "big fundamental" . That said, he is extremely boring to watch. Easily the most boring superstar in the league. How anyone can find him exciting or fun to watch is beyond me.

Watching him destroy opposing defenses makes it very fun. Boring if you're being ripped a new one, exciting if you're doing the ripping.

[anonymous coward]

duncan is...body up the defender, little hook/one hand shot, again, again, again, faul...ft's, ocational bank shot, ocational jumper. decent blocker, bad 1 on 1 defender.
OVERRATED...MONOTONOUS...CLUTCHLESS...BORING...
DUNCAN AND THE SPURS ARENT CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDERS W/O MANU'S MAGIC AND CLUTCHNESS!
I HATE HOW THE PEOPLE GIVE HIM ALL THE CREDIT, LIKE IF THE SPURS WERE ALL DUNCAN.
THE DUNCAN'S VALUE TO THE SPURS EQUALS TO MANU'S VALUE! :pctoss

BUMP FOR THE TRUTH

[samikeyp]

Tim is a very good player, and he's great at what he does. He truly is the "big fundamental" . That said, he is extremely boring to watch. Easily the most boring superstar in the league. How anyone can find him exciting or fun to watch is beyond me.

And this is important because you get extra points for excitement! :rolleyes

[mbass]

All I know is...the Spurs play beautiful basketball. I am left in awe sometimes at how smoothly their offense flows and when the system of the offense itself results in a final pass that leads to a wide open jumper or an easy lay-up, I just say, "Wow." (And if I'm watching it in public or with other people, everyone just looks at me kinda weird, esp. when the commentators say NOTHING about it, except "And Horry scores from the baseline" or "Oberto is so crafty.")
EDIT: And of course, it goes without saying that the offense also depends upon Tim to just flat-out dominate with his "boring" moves. His "boring" offensive array of post footwork, pump fakes, crazy hook shots, jumpers, perfect, PERFECT sealing of his man for easy pass and dunks...is what the offense is built around. The attention he demands...regardless of whether the other team doubles (what the Suns had to eventually do) or not (what Pistons try to stick to with Rasheed), he still demands a tremendous amount of attention, which frees up the offense.

And their defense is amazing as well. So many times throughout the Suns' series, I would watch as Nash (or Barbosa or Marion or whoever...but mostly Nash) would manage to get past their man and go towards the paint. Spurs would immediately have a man rotate, and the whole unit on the floor would shift, almost automatically, like clock-work, to compensate for that rotation, leaving Nash with no holes (or at least no easy holes) to work with--when with almost any other team in the league, he would have multiple passing lanes or options to work with (that is the reason for him looking like he was scrambling on offense and repeatedly having to probe the defense and go under the basket just LOOKING desperately for a hole to exploit). That was also the great part of the series...watching Nash work with the little that was given to him and try to make something out of it. That is why I have a lot more respect for Nash now.

And all this about the Spurs is strongly anchored by Duncan. He's the motor, the cpu chip, the whatever thing that is integral to anything analogy, that makes it all work---offense, defense, whatever. Everything hinges on him and it's not some automatic, robotic thing that occurs just because he's a big guy and is just in the game. He is aware of everything that's going on and the little things he does on the court makes the whole thing work. If he makes one false move, if he dribbles one or two more steps towards the baseline or paint, he could mess up the spacing. If he doesn't get deep enough into the paint, the man that doubles onto him would be able to recover quickly enough to the shooter. If he isn't aware of WHERE the doubles come from at all times (cuz they throw doubles from random, different guys just in one possession) and doesn't make the correct pass to swing the ball, that offensive possession is over. If he doesn't sag off his man enough, or comes too early or too quickly with the help, it could throw the whole defensive scheme out the window for that possession.

The Spurs (and Tim Duncan) are a joy to watch...I don't know how to illustrate this point clearly enough.


YOU JUST DID ILLUSTRATE YOUR POINT - THANK YOU. :clap

[Lady Marmalade]

You close minded Spurs fans are so damn bitter against the past 2 years MVP winners. So many of you dig and scratch for anyways to bash on those 2 GREAT players just because your boy TD didn't perform as well as either of them and get the MVP. NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan, but so many all around the country love to watch Dirk and Nash play. Wonder why. It's because he is so fucking boring, good or not.

Perhaps others enjoy Nash and Dirk ( ummm I don't find Dirk fun to watch but Nash is).... but Duncan has 3 rings which both Nash and Dirk want.

[Strike]

You close minded Spurs fans are so damn bitter against the past 2 years MVP winners. So many of you dig and scratch for anyways to bash on those 2 GREAT players just because your boy TD didn't perform as well as either of them and get the MVP. NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY outside of San Antonio enjoys to watch Duncan, but so many all around the country love to watch Dirk and Nash play. Wonder why. It's because he is so fucking boring, good or not.


Nash = 2 MVP's.

Dirk = 1 UNDESERVED MVP

Duncan = 2 MVP'S, 3 FINALS MVP'S, 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS

Tools can say whatever they want. I'm not bitter that Nash and Dirk got some trophies. If anything, Nash and Dirk are bitter because Duncan has some rings.

By the way, I'm outside of San Antonio and I love to watch Duncan use his same couple of "boring" moves and continually score left and right on the "best" big men in the league.

[anonymous coward]

duncan have rings thanks to manu. no manu, no rings, no finals mvp's.

NO MANU= DUNCAN 1/2* RING
NO MANU= DUNCAN 1/2* FINALS MVP

STOP OVERRATING HIM AND RECOGNICE!

[BlackFlagg]

DUNCAN AND THE SPURS ARENT CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDERS W/O MANU'S MAGIC AND CLUTCHNESS

Are you still here? Like it or not, TD's the hottest PF in the league.
:lol

[Strike]

duncan have rings thanks to manu. no manu, no rings, no finals mvp's.

NO MANU= DUNCAN 1/2* RING
NO MANU= DUNCAN 1/2* FINALS MVP

STOP OVERRATING HIM AND RECOGNICE!

WEAK ARGUMENT ALERT!!!!!!!

So Nash hasn't had any help and still not pulled it out? What about Dirk?

They both have had help and still couldn't do anything with it.

-Would Jordan have 6 rings if not for Pippen, Paxson/Kerr and Grant/Rodman? No.
-Would Magic have rings without Kareem/Worthy? No.
-Would Shaq have 4 rings without Kobe/D-Wade? No.
-Would Bird have his rings without Parish, McHale and D.J.? No.
-Would Isiah have his rings without Rodman, Dumars and Laimbeer? No.
-Would the Pistons have won the title in '04 if they were missing any one starter? No.
-When did Robinson get his 1st ring? When Duncan came to town.
-When did Hakeem get his 1st ring? When Drexler came to town.



Duncan had help, yep. So did every other star who won a ring for the past 25 years.

[anonymous coward]

my point is that manu is as important as duncan, its a symbiosis

[Strike]

If The Spurs didn't have Manu, they would still be a contender.

Without Duncan, they are an 8th seed at BEST.

[Strike]

my point is that I just got owned.

Fixed

[Don Quixote]

Then you are wrong, because I live in Dallas, a city that hates both the Spurs and Suns, and everyone here cant stand to watch Duncan, but still love to watch Amare because of how he scores. And in Phoenix where I'm from, they enjoy to watch someone like Dirk because he scores in many different ways.

So I guess they'll be missing the boring hoisting of the trophy in a couple of weeks, too. It's too bad, because that's the only way they (Mavs & Suns fan) will be catching it anytime soon.

We'll let fans of Dallas & Phoenix worry about excitement, asethetics, etc. We'll worry about the trophies.

[anonymous coward]

contenders yes, but champs not!
recognice!

cya later

[Strike]

recognice!

cya later

Do you mean
"RECOGNIZE?"

I let it go the 1st time, but in a 3 word post you still fucked it up?

DOUCHE

[anonymous coward]

:donkey

[anonymous coward]

Do you mean
"RECOGNIZE?"

I let it go the 1st time, but in a 3 word post you still fucked it up?

DOUCHE

im still working on my english

cya

[Strike]

contenders yes, but champs not.

You just made my fucking argument. Duncan is obviously more important than
Ginobili.

[Strike]

im still working on my english

cya

Keep working, tool.

[Don Quixote]

Put Laker gear on the spurs starting five and they will automatically be perceived as exciting.

Great point.

I tell morons/ignorant people/goldteeth people in New Orleans that all the time. Everyone would love the Spurs if they wore Mavs/Suns/Laker jerseys.

Like I said, we can let fans of these teams worry about beauty, ambience, aethetics, fun, etc etc. When we're hoisting yet another trophy in the end, I'm sure all the Spurs and their fans will think long and hard about how ugly and boring their brand of basketball is.
:king

[phyzik]

my take......

I'll take a boring winner vs an exciting loser any day of the fucking week, because when all is said and done history will only remembers the winners, not 2nd place.

bottom fucking line.

[Strike]

my take......

I'll take a boring winner vs an exciting loser any day of the fucking week, because when all is said and done history will only remembers the winners, not 2nd place.

bottom fucking line.

Yep. Like I've said many times, there are millions of fans of several other teams who would love to be bored watching their teams win championships.

[phyzik]

Yep. Like I've said many times, there are millions of fans of several other teams who would love to be bored watching their teams win championships.


Exactly, Im sure there are people out there that can remember which teams the Celtics went through, but they definately are the minority.... 90% of people just know the Celtics have 14 championships, thats it... no one cares how or who they went through to get them without searching it up on the internet.

It will be the Same with the Spurs 3 (or more) championships.... All people will remember 20 years from now is that they (Spurs) where the most consistantly dominate franchise (percentage wise) in the whole world of Sports for 10+ years, not just basketball. Add on 1 or 2 more championships???.............

[anonymous coward]

1 more thingy...do you know why i say contenders yes, champions not?, beacuse manu is the courage, the eggs, the clutch that the spurs doesnt have *cough duncan cough*, *cough parker cough*...

[Strike]

90% of people just know the Celtics have 14 championships, thats it...

Actually, it's 16.

57, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 74, 76, 81, 84, 86.

I'm a fountain of useless sports trivia, otherwise I wouldn't know that.

[Strike]

Accidental double post.

[Strike]

1 more thingy...do you know why i say contenders yes, champions not?, beacuse manu is the courage, the eggs, the clutch that the spurs doesnt have *cough duncan cough*, *cough parker cough*...
I seem to recall Duncan winning 2 titles without Ginobili.
Duncan is the anchor that carries the team.

And did I say the Spurs would be champs without Manu? No. I said they would be contenders.

With Manu & Without Duncan they are maybe an 8th seed, more likely on the outside looking in.

Once again, you're head of the redundancy department of redundancy.
And still a fucking tool.

As a great man once said,

"NOW GO HOME AND GET YOUR FUCKING SHINEBOX."

[phyzik]

Actually, it's 16.

57, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 74, 76, 81, 84, 86.

I'm a fountain of useless sports trivia, otherwise I wouldn't know that.


You got me, but thats not the point....

Take the movie 300 for example.

People remember the battle (thanks to the movie) but most dont look at how they (Spartans) killed children who weren't perfect, raped and pillaged villages, treated women as "lesser", where pretty much down right bastards of their time.... but no one remembers that, all they remember is how 300 men killed others by the thousand, never mind how they did it, they just did. Yet here we are today, creating movies about how they took on a large army and brought it to its knees and making them look like the saviours of the world.

[Strike]

You got me, but thats not the point....

Take the movie 300 for example.

People remember the battle (thanks to the movie) but most dont look at how they (Spartans) killed children who weren't perfect, raped and pillaged villages, treated women as "lesser", where pretty much down right bastards of their time.... but no one remembers that, all they remember is how 300 men killed others by the thousand, never mind how they did it, they just did.

Actually I remembered that. I'm a history buff.:lol

I swear I'm not trying to talk shit. I agree with your takes.
You're just lucky enough to pick topics that I know.

But your take holds water. The average person doesn't remember the specifics.

[anonymous coward]

I seem to recall Duncan winning 2 titles without Ginobili.
Duncan is the anchor that carries the team.

And did I say the Spurs would be champs without Manu? No. I said they would be contenders.

With Manu & Without Duncan they are maybe an 8th seed, more likely on the outside looking in.

Once again, you're head of the redundancy department of redundancy.
And still a fucking tool.

As a great man once said,

"NOW GO HOME AND GET YOUR FUCKING SHINEBOX."

wrong! :lmao

wtf is tool?

"NOW GO HOME AND GET YOUR FUCKING SHINEBOX." :wtf

[Strike]

1 more thingy...I'm still a fucking douche!

Fixed

[anonymous coward]

douche :wtf

[anonymous coward]

1 more thingy...do you know why i say contenders yes, champions not?, beacuse manu is the courage, the eggs, the clutch that a championship team needs and that the spurs didnt have *cough duncan cough*, *cough parker cough*...


"the spurs would have 2 championships less if not by manu" - greg popovich

[Strike]

You're correct. I'll give you that. I forgot about Ginobili in 2003. Probably because he was a ROOKIE that started 5 REGULAR SEASON GAMES and didn't start a SINGLE FUCKING PLAYOFF GAME!

What else you got?

[anonymous coward]

bah FU!

[Strike]

bah FU!

Translation: you are officially :owned

[ambchang]

I would have to say anybody who says Duncan's game is boring does not understand the game. There is no way anyone who understand the game cannot appreciate the angles he masters on defense, the arsenal of offensive weapons he has, his ability to finish with both hands, the way he fills in for his teammate's errors, over and over in a game, it is beautiful to watch.
Miles Davis and John Coltrane are probably "boring" to kids who listen to Pussy Cat Dolls and Justin Timberlake.

[chorizo overdose]

I would have to say anybody who says Duncan's game is boring does not understand the game. There is no way anyone who understand the game cannot appreciate the angles he masters on defense, the arsenal of offensive weapons he has, his ability to finish with both hands, the way he fills in for his teammate's errors, over and over in a game, it is beautiful to watch.
Miles Davis and John Coltrane are probably "boring" to kids who listen to Pussy Cat Dolls and Justin Timberlake.


nailed that fucking argument. solid.

:toast

[anonymous coward]

Translation: you are officially :owned
"the spurs would have 2 championships less if not by manu" - greg popovich

[ChumpDumper]

They wouldn't have any without Duncan. What's your point?

[anonymous coward]

They wouldn't have any without Duncan. What's your point?

its up there, read

[Jimcs50]

I seem to remember that Manu has won 2 titles without Elson.

[Testing]

Greg Anthony is becoming a smart analyst.

He was the only one I heard after the Suns/Horry fiasco point out the most obvious thing which fans didn't: Blaming Horry for the Amare/Diaw suspends doesn't make sense. How many other "flagarant" fouls have we seen in the NBA these playoffs? A week earlier Baron Davis committed a serious one against Fischer, etc. yet no one from any other team got up to cause a scene like Amare/Diaw. Everyone knows the rules....

[MadDog73]

Seriously, what does Man have to do with it?

Malone couldn't win a Championship. Period. No matter who he was with.

So while, yes, Duncan's teammates matter, I guarantee the Spurs are Tim Duncan's team.

No "ands", "ifs" or "buts."

[anonymous coward]

I seem to remember that Manu has won 2 titles without Elson.

blah

[SAtoDallas]

Then you are wrong, because I live in Dallas, a city that hates both the Spurs and Suns, and everyone here cant stand to watch Duncan, but still love to watch Amare because of how he scores. And in Phoenix where I'm from, they enjoy to watch someone like Dirk because he scores in many different ways.


Hey Spider I too live in Dallas and know that the only thing people in Dallas care to watch sports wise are Dallas teams, they think of Phoenix as a retirement city just a place in the desert to go and die. I made the trip to SA for that final ass whupping it was a blast, man my voice is still a little hoarse.

[Martin R]

Tim Duncan is the best PF to play in the NBA ever.
Tim Duncan is one of the 10 GREATEAST players EVER.

[smeagol]

Tim Duncan is the best PF to play in the NBA ever.
Tim Duncan is one of the 10 GREATEAST players EVER.
Manu, as great as he is, is just one more guard.

[Louie Vega]

BUY IT OR SELL IT

During ESPN's Game 6 postgame show, analyst Greg Anthony had some words of high praise for the Spurs and in particular their star forward Tim Duncan. He called him "The best power forward that the league has ever seen." He also went on to say that the Spurs do in fact play "sexy basketball" and frowned on notion that their brand of basketball was boring.


At this point in his career, are you buying or selling Tim Duncan being labeled as the best power forward to set foot on the hardwood.

Im Buying! I mean, Anthony got an up close and personal look at Duncan in his prime in the '99 series vs the Trailblazers so he should know! And to see Tim still dominating 8 years after that?

[GSH]

He is damn good, but is so damn boring because he does nothing exciting. Just because a player is good does not always make him fun to watch. In TD's case, he ios not fun to watch. Sorry, just how it is.

He's fun to watch when he's kicking your team's ass. I'm sure it's no fun to watch if you're on the other end of it.

[Sasha]

What is boring about his game? He does everything well on both ends of the floor. I will never understand how anyone who says they love basketball could have little interest in watching Tim play. This guy is a fucking genius out there on the court.


He doesn't do drugs, he doesn't rape barmaids, and he stays out of jail. That's boring. :rolleyes

[spursfan09]

:lol Mavs and Suns fans think Spurs are boring. Sorry the Spurs don't entertain you by getting a great reg season basketball and getting a padded record only to choke it away in the playoffs.

[ArgSpursFan]

Nah. Bird's pretty untouchable there. What separates Bird from every other forward in NBA history was the fact that he was better than Horry in the clutch, even with every team throwing everything they had at him at the ends of games. Bird at anything less than top 3 all-time is crazy to me.

Bird was a long three(the best SF ever ),but still a SF,not a PF.

[samikeyp]

Mavs and Suns fans think Spurs are boring. Sorry the Spurs don't entertain you by getting a great reg season basketball and getting a padded record only to choke it away in the playoffs.

Winning titles never gets boring.

[Strike]

"the spurs would have 2 championships less if not by manu" - greg popovich

Did I ever say they would have won without Ginobili? No I didn't you dumb fuck.

Go back and quote any of my posts where I said that you fucktard.

[Corn on the Colb]

Malone, now, is still the best PF of all-time. Say what you want about him playing with Stockton, but Stockton wouldn't have been what HE was without Malone too, so think of it both ways. You don't know who improved who.

Timmay's got the titles, Malone's got the accolades. Duncan could very well assume the title of 'Best PF ever' at his retirement ceremony, but as of right now, I still believe in Karl.

Call me a homer now, but I think in the back of most of your minds, you're thinking about the same thing.

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, think about what Duncan could have done with Stockton playing with him his entire career.

[Corn on the Colb]

Damn, think about what Duncan could have done with Stockton playing with him his entire career.

Trying to be an ass?