Ludden: Nothing reserved about Spurs' backups

[timvp]

Nothing reserved about Spurs' backups
Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

Tony Parker was still sitting in front of his locker almost 30 minutes after the Spurs' victory Saturday night. Someone wanted to know about the team's reserves, and Parker was patiently trying to provide as complete an answer as possible.

"Beno (Udrih) is doing a very good job," Parker said. "Brent Barry has obviously played very good. Devin (Brown) showed everybody in the playoffs last year what he can do.

"Malik (Rose) is coming back like the old Malik, coming in and being productive and bringing a lot of energy. Robert Horry brings something different with his 3-point shooting. And if they aren't doing well, we still have T-Mass (Tony Massenburg).

"Our team," Parker said before taking a breath, "is very deep."

That has come in handy of late. The Spurs' bench averaged 30.2 points during a tiring seven-games-in-10-days stretch that ended with Saturday's rout of Utah. With the team also playing its next seven games in 10 days, coach Gregg Popovich may have to lean on his reserves more than usual.

"There are certain games when the starting five doesn't have the juice and you need the bench to lift you up," Manu Ginobili said. "That happens a lot in this league, especially in a back-to-back."

The Spurs' reserves provided such a jump-start in the Nov. 19 victory at Boston. After the team fell behind by 13 points midway through the third quarter, Popovich sat Ginobili and Tim Duncan. Five minutes later, Rose, Horry, Barry and Brown — along with Parker — had tied the game.

"I can't tell you how much that means," Ginobili said. "It was a whole different game when we came back. Our energy was up. Our confidence was up."

Popovich has been especially concerned about making sure Duncan and Ginobili get enough rest. Both played in the Olympics this summer and Ginobili, in particular, has looked fatigued at times. On Saturday, each played only eight minutes in the second half while the reserves protected the team's comfortable lead.

"Any night Manu and Tim get to sit like that," Popovich said, "is good for us."

To maximize Ginobili's energy, Popovich tries to limit his time on the floor to six- or eight-minute stretches. Barry usually replaces Ginobili midway through the first quarter. Rose often replaces Rasho Nesterovic a minute or two later and Udrih takes over for Parker near the end of the quarter.

For now, Brown, Horry and Massenburg don't have nearly as consistent roles. Their minutes usually are decided by matchups, foul trouble and whether the other reserves are producing.

"You have to support each other," Horry said. "It's one common goal: to win as many games as you can and place yourself in the best playoff position possible.

"I've been on some teams where guys who think they should be playing become cancers. Then it affects the morale of the team and that's not a good thing.

"This team is very positive. Everybody supports one another — even the guys that play the same position."

Last season, Horry got the bulk of the significant minutes behind Nesterovic and Duncan. Rose has made the most of that role of late, totaling 27 points on 12 shots in the past two games. As per Popovich's wish, he has focused on running the floor, rebounding and defending.

"You can't forget the year we won the championship (2003); he was big on that team," Parker said. "If he can come back and be productive and bring energy every game, I think we're going to be a hell of a team."

In addition to Rose, the biggest difference from last season, Popovich said, is that the team appears to have found a dependable backup point guard. Udrih earned a rebuke from Popovich on one possession Saturday when he didn't get the team in the proper set. Otherwise, he played respectably after Parker picked up two quick fouls in the first quarter. He also has been the Spurs' most accurate 3-point shooter.

"He's a real player," Popovich said. "He's a clever little ... young lad. He gives you visions of a poor man's (John) Stockton in the sense that his timing is great on passes, the little bounce passes off pick-and-rolls, the change of pace.

"He really understands that position. But is he tough enough? Is he strong enough? Is he sturdy enough? I don't know yet."

Those aren't the only questions Udrih and the rest of the Spurs' reserves still have to answer, Popovich said. Though no one has grumbled about his minutes, the season is still young.

"We'll see if all the roles are accepted," Popovich said. "If that happens it could be the deepest team we've had."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA112904.01D.spurs.a1c5bd9c.html

[BigVee]

Amen. This team has a chance to become something special. The Utah game was a glance at what could be. Who knows what will be, will they play to their potential, with injuries, etc. But, when they are on their game, there is not a team in this league that can touch them. Their best is better than anyone else's best.

[whottt]

"You have to support each other," Horry said. "It's one common goal: to win as many games as you can and place yourself in the best playoff position possible.


It's good to see that winners like Horry get this. It's disheartening to see that many SpursFans, like boutons, dump and Rummpd don't.

It's especially disheartening to see some fans, like oh say, TimVP for instance, who often brag about being so in touch with the team's concept of team ball and defense, don't get it, and instead would rather get moist like a teenage girl, over an Euro who has nice scoring stats, in the Euroleagues...while they take a big shit on team players who do get it...and play for the league min to boot.

[samikeyp]

Which Euro?

[Duff McCartney]

He's talking about Scola.

[ChumpDumper]

It's good to see that winners like Horry get this. It's disheartening to see that many SpursFans, like boutons, dump and Rummpd don't.Link?

My point is Horry is not as good as he was. He's certainly worth the minimum, but he hasn't been as clutch as you claim in some time. You agreed with that.

[whottt]

Link?

My point is Horry is not as good as he was. He's certainly worth the minimum, but he hasn't been as clutch as you claim in some time. You agreed with that.

I said he hasn't been put in his type of clutch situation since he has been with the Spurs. He hasn't. You elect to judge him by his one missed shot as if it is the rule...when in fact it was the exception...that's a recipe for stupidity.

That's ok, you were a Malik hater too, and damned if I can find the link for that either..but you are only fooling yourself...You better go on a diet or you are going to get fat from eating your own words...

Now run along and go play with your dream team of Anthony Carter, Bobby Sura, Charlie Ward, and the immortal Karl Malone's ageless knee.

[ChumpDumper]

Malik is playing well, better than last year.

I said play him or trade him. He's playing well so they play him. I said he should play like he did in the championship years -- he has and EVERYONE on this board and on the team has said so. This is very simple stuff even a dumbass like you could understand.

Horry isn't playing well for the most part. They are playing him too much for what he is actually contributing. Sure, keep him on the bench for that one brief shining moment that probably won't happen. Once again you have made Mt Everest out of your molehill. You are such a fucking idiot. I agree with you that Horry is worth the minimum and I agree with you that it won't have to be a Scola/Horry choice. You agree with me that Horry hasn't been clutch in a long time. And yet all you can do is bitch.

Horry isn't playing well, and your dumbass knows it. He can't get defensive boards with you hanging from his sac like that.

[Solid D]

Whottt may be referring to Scola (the Euro, actually an Argentine playing in the Euroleague) since Whottt would prefer Horry to some unproven-in-the-states-tweener.

Horry does have savvy, moxy and he has done well in the playoffs, but he has deserved the fewer minutes he's received this year. He and Malik have clearly traded roles thusfar. Some of the games this year, Horry has looked like a newborn giraffe trying to manuever but that happens when your knees get to a certain point, regardless of your age as compared with some of the other guys on the team (see Steve Smith, the latter years).

[samikeyp]

If Scola can prove himself, I am all for it. Personally I don't put a lot of stock in Euroleague numbers by themselves.

[picnroll]

In the limited minutes he's getting Horry is blowing a lot of defensive assignments.

[ChumpDumper]

But he might make a last-second three so you have to play him regularly no matter how badly he plays....right?

[T Park]

Horry is blowing a lot of defensive assignments

wrong.

Horry played very good Defense vs Nowitzki and Boozer.

[Solid D]

I think most people were just disappointed in Robert's production during the Lakers' series, since he had been able to turn in up in the playoffs for them and Houston over the years. He is in decline He is no longer the default choice to close out games as the "other" big, as Pop would have hoped for.

The Spurs didn't hit shots, there was lots of blame to go around, but face it, most people were disappointed in the following from Robert:

Robert Horry 2003-04 Lakers versus Spurs Playoff Series
Game Min FG..3FG...Reb Pts
1 ..... 23 0-2 0-0 ... 5 .. 0
2 ..... 17 1-3 1-3 ... 4 .. 3
3 ..... 12 0-0 0-0 ... 2 .. 2
4 ....... 7 0-1 0-1 ... 6 .. 0
5 ...... 27 0-4 0-3 ... 6 .. 0
6 ...... 25 3-7 1-5 ... 7 .. 12

[picnroll]

Horry has been very late on weakside rotation and lost his man in the post a number of times. That use to be Malik's role along with Malik not stopping the P&R well, getting back to his man too soon.


Horry spreads the floor but lately Malik has been hitting the 18 - 20' more often than not. Pop will play them both but eventually if it keeps going this way I expect Malik will start getting the lion's share of the minutes come March.

[picnroll]

wrong thread

[Solid D]

Malik is already getting the most big-man reserve minutes (17.1). Horry is currently averaging 12.8, more and more - commensurate with a vet-minimum player contribution.

[ChumpDumper]

Pretty much the way it should've been last year, if not for Malik's substandard play.

[whottt]

Solid D, that's a pretty good asessment but you still missed the forrest for the trees...

Horry has always had that funky gait that looks like a baby giraffe taking it's first steps...it's always been painful to watch him walk and run, he's always looked goofy...and something you failed to mention...he's always had negative body language that seems to scream "I am defeated"

He has had those traits since the day he came into the league....in missing that fact you have missed the true genius of Robert Horry...the main reason why Horry has done so much damage in high pressure situations...the main reason it has so often been him that opposing teams either forgot about or chose to challenge.

He simply doesn't look like a guy that can hurt you, he doesn't carry himself like a guy that can hurt you.....And in truth he isn't a guy that can hurt you offensively, as long as you pay attention to him, he isn't a guy that's going to dominate a game night in and night out, he could not really even be considered a go to guy......but bank on this...

If you fail to pay attention to him, if you doubt him, if you underestiumate him, or try to make him the fall guy for his team, he will rip your heart out and hold it in front of your face before you die....and he will sport a big goofy hayseed grin while he is doing it.


I really shouldn't have to explain this shit to other SpurFans...you'd think Spurfans would have learned this lesson by now.

I assure you that, despite the fact that he often looks like a guy that needs to be getting treatment in a cerebal palsy ward, he is a muti skilled bigman capable of doing just about anything he wants to do. He can shoot threes, he can block shots, he can steal the ball, he can make beautiful passes, he's got seldom used texbook perfect post up moves, he can put the ball on the floor from the top of the key and throw down a Julius Irving type dunk...he's even got a fade away jumpshot...

How do I know these things when he hasn't yet used most of them with the Spurs?

Simple, because I have seen him use all of them in key moments of big games when teams underestimated him.


He can do it all.....he's just not good enough to do it for an entire game, an entire season, or if you prepare for it and defend him with respect....

In 94-95...I remember watching a beaten down, scorless Horry get the ball on his team's final posession...and I remember thinking, thank god that loser scrub Horry has that ball and not Hakeem...and then, much to my dismay, I remember watching Horry pull off a beautiful pull up textbook jumper that I had never seen him do before, that I had no inkling he could do, and hitting the game winner. I remember later in the series he executed a perfect back to the basket post up move....catching Hall of Fame defender David Robinson with his pants totally down in the process....


I remember, countless times, him being left open from 3 in that same series against my beloved Spurs and saying to myself, there is no way in hell this goofy, unhappy looking, slump shouldered, fuck, is going to hit that 3 and beat my golden boy Spurs....and I was wrong. Painfully wrong...again, and again, and again. I learned my lesson then and I have never forgotten it...


Don't judge this motherfucker by his stats or his appearance...just make sure you have a man on his ass and don't forget about him in the defining moments of a game...because if you think he is going to beat himself, if you think he will fail that test, you are dead fucking wrong.

When he was traded for Barkley it should have been cause for much depression on the part of most Spurfans, I mean the addition of a HOF PF to a HOF center should have spelt death for my beloved franchise...but there was a part of me that was very happy to see Horry leave that team...that was happy I wasn't going to have to feel the sting of those timely 3's that killed my team time and time again when he was underestimated...that was happy my team wasn't going to be tricked into doubting him, ever again.

This was all before he went on to much the same type of success with the Lakers...

Since that time I have watched him again be chosen as the weak link by opposing teams...and again and again I watched Horry shrug off his goofyness, his apparent permanent injury, to reveal the big red

http://www.aaronn.net/creations/others/annie/pix/superman-white_small.jpg

or is it a 5, behind his jersey and punish those who thought he couldn't hurt them, who thought he couldn't even walk, who thought he was finished...


That's exactly the sercret behind his clutchness, that's the secret to his closing seconds genius...I guess he knows he can't produce consistently at a high level...but what he can do is play steady defense, play smart, and bait opposing teams hoping they will choose to test him, or forget about him, in the final moments of a game...I have only seem him fail in these moments 1 time in his entire career, and that was against us...but that shot was oh so fucking close to going in...watch the replay.


Yes he is slower, he has aged...but the main reason he is slower is because he put on about 20 pounds to move to the PF spot for the Lakers...a move which even Tim Duncan and Pop say made him the best Duncan defender in the NBA...I don't think it's any coincidence that among the most embarrasing moments and worst playoff series of Duncan and Robinson's careers the common denominator is Robert Horry D...either as the primary defender or as double team help....he is a smart team player and an asset to any team.

And something needs to be cleared up to set Horry's offensive performance against LA apart from that of Hedo and Bowen....Horry was drawing a defender at all times in that series...LA never tested him...they knew better...but the Spurs didn't help him...they were giving him the ball in the same spot they give it to Duncan...Horry can be of the most help out on the perimeter.

Anyway, I agree that Malik is playing better than Horry this season...but that doesn't mean I don't want Horry on this team...if only in a Danny Ferry type role. It's stupid to not keep him here....he played an important role in winning all of his rings.

[Solid D]

That is sure saying a lot in order to say that the Spurs need to hope for teams to underestimate Robert Horry in order for him to be effective.

I do know his history and he does have the potential to play well. He shows flashes of it but once again, lately he hasn't been deserving of close-out minutes of big games.

[timvp]

It's especially disheartening to see some fans, like oh say, TimVP for instance, who often brag about being so in touch with the team's concept of team ball and defense, don't get it, and instead would rather get moist like a teenage girl, over an Euro who has nice scoring stats, in the Euroleagues

:rollin

You remind me of the itching-to-fight Stephen Jackson. Everyone knows I'm the least sold on Scola out of this whole forum. You make no sense.

Give it a rest, Shane.

[whottt]

That is sure saying a lot in order to say that the Spurs need to hope for teams to underestimate Robert Horry in order for him to be effective.


I'm not only saying teams need to underestimate him for him to be effective on offense...although I did say that and it is true...I went to great lengths to explain why he gets underestimated...time and time again, inspit of what is, IMO, an unmatched portfolio of playoff game winners and stand out moments.

His method works...and if you doubt this just look at the many Spurfans saying he is finished....He's burnt the Spurs more than any other team...You'd think the fans wouldn't keep making the same mistakes, you'd think Spurfans would have learned the tricky nature of his play...

But as your comments, and those of chump, and others, most notably TimVP, prove, people either don't understand what he does, when he does it, or why he is able to do it, or they else have forgotten it...Either way it doesn't speak highly for the historical knowledge of many Horry doubters.



I do know his history and he does have the potential to play well. He shows flashes of it but once again, lately he hasn't been deserving of close-out minutes of big games.

And I'd argue that those are the only minutes he really needs to play....I think it hurts the Spurs more by not having him out there in those situations than it does Horry...

But at least the fact that he is on this team will keep the old "Those dumbasses that forget history are doomed to repeat it" proverb, that many SpurFans would otherwise be running headfirst to embrace in the wrong way, from biting us in the ass yet again.

I've still got no problems with Horry being on the court in key moments, and I have absolutely no problems with him taking the last shot.

[Kori Ellis]

Everyone knows I'm the least sold on Scola out of this whole forum. You make no sense.

Timvp is probably one of the most against Scola on the board. People bashed him all summer about it.

[timvp]

Forgive Shane. He's too busy writing up his next fillibuster to read what other people type.

[whottt]

:rollin

You remind me of the itching-to-fight Stephen Jackson. Everyone knows I'm the least sold on Scola out of this whole forum. You make no sense.

Give it a rest, Shane.

Well if you don't disagree with me then why do you keep putting your ass in front of my foot?

And don't give me this shit that you gave Horry a chance last season...you were pissed he got minutes last season, even before the Laker disappointment.

You hate Horry, just admit it.

[whottt]

Timvp is probably one of the most against Scola on the board. People bashed him all summer about it.

TimVP jumped on me first...when I was saying Scola is more unproven than guys like Malik and Horry, and that his game probably wouldn't transfer to the Spurs.

If he didn't disagree with me then what was he arguing with me about?

[whottt]

Forgive Shane. He's too busy writing up his next fillibuster to read what other people type.

Keep bringing up Heal...it reminds of how right I was about our weak back up shooters situation and perimeter game last year.......Anthony, or should I call you Hedo.

[ShoogarBear]

If he didn't disagree with me then what was he arguing with me about?

One needs a reason?

:angel

[timvp]

Well if you don't disagree with me then why do you keep putting your ass in front of my foot?

And don't give me this shit that you gave Horry a chance last season...you were pissed he got minutes last season, even before the Laker disappointment.

You hate Horry, just admit it.

Dumb@ss, Horry was one of my favorite players of all-time ... even before he was on the Spurs. When the Spurs signed him, I was ecstatic. I thought that it was a fluke that he choked in the playoffs against the Spurs.

But last year proved that it wasn't a fluke. He doesn't have it anymore. It's over. Just like it was time for David Robinson, Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson to move on ... that time is coming for Big Shot Rob.

I don't mind him in spot minutes but I don't want him getting major minutes in fourth quarters. He doesn't rebound well enough to be effective and help win games. It's a damn simple concept.

Now run along and go make up stories about me, Shane.

[timvp]

TimVP jumped on me first...when I was saying Scola is more unproven than guys like Malik and Horry, and that his game probably wouldn't transfer to the Spurs.

If he didn't disagree with me then what was he arguing with me about?

Where did I say anything about Scola over Horry? Where do you get this stuff?

Link.

[timvp]

Still waiting on that link.

It shall be interesting to see him try to get out of this one.

[Solid D]

Things erode over time.

"...and Cardinal gets under Horry for the rebound and scores! Robert was just a hair off on his timing there..."

"...and Horry is lying on the floor with the ball and and softly passes it to nobody in particular...and the Grizzlies have it going the other way."

[ChumpDumper]

Forget it, I'm still waiting for his link for me.

And Jim's check.

Etc.

[timvp]

:lol @ Solid D and ChumpDumper.

I'm awaiting Whottt's retirement post.

[whottt]

Gee TimVP, it was awfully hard to scroll down half a page and find your link...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6794&page=1

You tell me the purpose of your comments if they were not intended to refute my point that Horry is a better option than an unproven Euro...not to mention the dumbass idea that the Spurs have to choose between Scola and Vet min Horry.

[whottt]

Forget it, I'm still waiting for his link for me.

And Jim's check.

Etc.


I'll be quite honest with you Chump, your credibility is shot with me....it's not worth the effort to go and find a link that forces you to back track...#1.It's not hard to find you being wrong about something...Charlie. #2.It's not a rare occurence for you to wholesale back track...it's more like a forum regularity. #3.It is a rare occurence for you to come clean on anything even when you are bashed over the head with your own words....Your frequent response is to play up the vague meaning of your words and ignore the veiled intent...you fool no one but yourself...Cunt!

[ChumpDumper]

If you can't find it, just admit it.

[timvp]

:lol

I didn't want just a random link. Show me anywhere where I said I want Scola over Horry for this season.

Just because I tell you that Horry doesn't rebound well enough to play extended minutes in fourth quarters doesn't mean that I go against everything else you've ever thought up.

Bring a take. You're better than this.




P.S.

And since you brought up that post, you never answered whether you want Horry playing the fourth quarters of playoff games.

Question.


P.P.S.

Still waiting on that link.

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, LJ -- it's so obvious your hatred of Kirk Penny makes you wrong about Horry,

Recognize.

[TheWriter]

Whottt is just getting

http://gama.sloweb.net/1tao5a_awro-lui%20was%20owned.jpg

[whottt]

:lol

I didn't want just a random link. Show me anywhere where I said I want Scola over Horry for this season.

Um...when and where was the debate about "this" season. I think it's a pretty much a unanimous belief that Scola isn't going to be playing here this season.

And what's in that link is what you "don't" say...that thread was about Scola and when I took issue with some who felt Scola would be an improvement over Horry...and that the belief that we had to choose between the two was incorrect...you seemed to take issue with those points...

So either you think Scola will be a better option...or else you were meandering within a thread without any clear sense of pupose or intent...you tell me which it was....




Just because I tell you that Horry doesn't rebound well enough to play extended minutes in fourth quarters doesn't mean that I go against everything else you've ever thought up.

Bring a take. You're better than this.

Well that wasn't what you said initially, and I don't think I've ever made a comment on how many minutes Horry should be getting....To me it's not a matter of how many minutes he gets...it's a matter of when he gets them...I feel, as I did last season, that Malik needs minutes to play out of his clumsiness...I think history shows this to be true.





P.S.

And since you brought up that post, you never answered whether you want Horry playing the fourth quarters of playoff games.

Question.

Depends on the situation and the team we are playing...but put it this way...I almost always want Horry on the court in tight or deciding moments of a game....His basketball IQ doesn't age...he knows how to get the ball into Duncan...and not only does he have a knack for hitting big shots, that will make Duncan's moves in the post easier by clearing out an interior defender...he has a knack for getting the ball in his hands to be able to take those big shots, even though he has never been a main option on his teams....it's more than just luck...the guy is a very smart player and he knows how and when to get the most out of his skill...

That's my take...it's very similar to my take on Steve Kerr....that many people thought was stupid...I believe the attitude was..what could a little whiteboy do that Steve Smith couldn't...:)

[whottt]

Whottt is just getting

LOL...this is great...I can't believe you are attempting to talk shit to me. Let me remind you of something...you are Buddy Holly LOL. So please shut the fuck up and go die of embarrasment like most any other sane person would if they were you.

You are the only similarity between SR and FSP...you are the universal joke at both boards, is there any admin at those boards who doesn't have your lip prints indelibly tatooed upon their ass, or that hasn't responded to you putting them there with a polite "no thanks"...Trust me...while none of the other posters in this thread may say it...none of them are happy to have you on their side.

Before you attempt to smack me...please remember who you are and how many times you have been given a bleeding ass on every Spurs board in existence...and then go and kill yourself out of shame.

[Solid D]

Revisionist historians unanimously agree that all you have said has in essence become fact. :hat

tic

[Solid D]

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/images/products/mid/MM020111250.jpg

Chain Pullinggg is a specialty in the Forummm, Whottt.

[whottt]

What ever Solid...but you are the one stuck in the past...the same critcisms you guys are aiming at Horry now are the same ones that were made back in 97.

No one was acting like Horry was a huge pick up for LA when West traded for the underachieving malcontent..

The criticisms you guys are making now are the same one people have always made...and he's been slow since he played for LA...he had trouble guarding Drob when Drob was on his last legs...still doesn't change the fact that he plays his best in the most terrifying moments...that's when he stands out the most, that's the only time he stands out...and he doesn't stand out because of some fantastic physical ability...he stands out with brains and guts.

You guys are the ones using cliches...your criticism is very cliched, Rocket fans were saying the same things when they traded him to Phoenix... and it's much the same criticism that I was making of him a decade ago...that's he just not that good.

I think Horry remains a championship acessory...not good enough to be the backbone of a team...but good enough to be a major factor in winning or losing a championship on a team that is close.

I still think that because I haven't seen him fail in that situation with the Spurs yet...the fact that you and the others think he has, the criticism you aim at him...proves that you never understood the nature of what he did in the first place. He's never looked good when viewed in terms of consistent production or every day play. And the perspective in which he has always looked exceptional...well he hasn't been put through that prism yet with the Spurs...hopefully they will give him that opportunity. Not doing so hurts the Spurs more than Horry...he's the one with 5 rings.

I'm gonna be right on this one....just make sure you remember it when I am.

[Solid D]

http://www.dairyqueen.com/NR/rdonlyres/FAB0BA60-D0FF-4B32-9FEF-EEF89ED219DB/0/smultimate.jpg

The Filler-Buster!!! The True FSP Treat.

[whottt]

Too bad your ability to google unfunny pictures doesn't translate to you being right or my numerous words being wrong.

Nice basketball take by the way.

[smeagol]

I'll be quite honest with you Chump, your credibility is shot with me....it's not worth the effort to go and find a link that forces you to back track...#1.It's not hard to find you being wrong about something...Charlie. #2.It's not a rare occurence for you to wholesale back track...it's more like a forum regularity. #3.It is a rare occurence for you to come clean on anything even when you are bashed over the head with your own words....Your frequent response is to play up the vague meaning of your words and ignore the veiled intent...you fool no one but yourself...Cunt!
I remember a certain thread about Manu vs. Hedo . . .

[ChumpDumper]

Ah yes, when I said Hedo might be a better player than Manu if he reaches his potential.

Damn me all to hell.

[E20]

Horry's numbers aren't even impressive. Brown averages better #'s than Rob and get's less playing time. I don't know how someone can be this stubborn.

[smeagol]

Ah yes, when I said Hedo might be a better player than Manu if he reaches his potential.

No, that's not the way I remember the discussion. It would be nice if sombody could retrieve the thread.


Damn me all to hell.

Hell must be a horrible place. No way I want you, Chump, to end there.

[johnny00]

Horry's numbers aren't even impressive. Brown averages better #'s than Rob and get's less playing time. I don't know how someone can be this stubborn.Ask Pop, he's the one still putting him in the fourth. BTW does Pop = Whott?

[whottt]

Horry's numbers aren't even impressive. Brown averages better #'s than Rob and get's less playing time. I don't know how someone can be this stubborn.




It's real fucking simple...you don't judge Horry by stats, especially regular season stats, something every single Horry detractor in this thread has done. Every body in the NBA, except the dimwits I am arguing with here and now, understand this simple fucking fact! You morons!

That is the number 1 rule with him....and those that do so have been made to pay for it time and time again. Fools! How hard is it to recall some of the recent playoff series and some of our historical series.

Don't judge him by his stats.

Even the usually erstwhile poster Solid D has made this mistake..he cited Horry's numbers last season in the LA series...

I already mentioned that the first big last second playoff winner of Horry's career...it came against our own Spurs...it was the only basket he made in that entire game....but it stole momentum from us on our own home court in the waning seconds and was probably the main reason we couldn't come back to win what was a much closer series than most people remember.

I'm not saying he deserves beaucoup minutes...come to think of it...I was bitching about Malik's lack of minutes last season, saying he wasn't getting enough PT to sharpen his skills...

But there's a reason Horry has 5 rings...there's a reason he's got more rings than any of the Superstars he played with...there is a reason he's got rings without them that they don't have without him...and even if he has played for great teams...don't get lost on the fact that he wanted to play for the Spurs at this time...the man is no fool...if you still doubt is IQ realize that at least.

Horry has earned the right to be trusted in crucial moments of games in the course of his career...and it's our loss if we fail to do so.

I love Malik, I defend him relentlessly on this board, and I've got absolutely no problems with Malik getting the lionshare of the minutes...especially in the regular season...but I'd much rather have Horry on the court in the decisive moments...and as long as he is willing to play for the minimum it is absolutely incredibly fucking stupid to try and run him off.

Keep judging him by that Laker series...just remember...they knew him better than anyone...regardless of how hated the Lakers and Jackson are here...it's a huge insult and underestimation of their abilities to think they wouldn't know to protect against the Horry effect....they figured out how to neutralize Duncan and Robinson when they were both relatively healthy...of course they can game plan to prevent Horry from killing them....


Horry wasn't the guy choking wide open shots in that series...he was the one being defended and played out of position on offense and defense....

And his best game was the one where our backs were against the wall.....04 didn't beat him...

[ChumpDumper]

Ok, don't play Horry unless it's for a last-second desperation three.

You got a deal.

[whottt]

Ok, don't play Horry unless it's for a last-second desperation three.

You got a deal.

He does more than just hit threes when it is crunch time...I swear you must not have ever watched the guy play for another team.


You reveal your ignorance with that comment...not that you do a good job of hiding it anyway...

But anyway...that comment shows you to be getting ever so slightly more intelligent...even if it is being done with you being dragged kicking and screaming along the way.

[ChumpDumper]

Then play him in every second of crunch time, even if Malik is having a great game.

What exactly do you want?

Having Horry in to shoot a desperation three is common sense. Hootie could even tell that by looking at the STATS!

[whottt]

smeagol, I want to thank you for your honest comments...I am about 100% certain that you probably don't agree with my comments on Scola...but it's good to see that you don't let a difference of opinion keep you from being honest...that's called credibility. Hopefully some of it will rub off on Chump. You have my respect as a poster on this board. And you have credibility with me...for what it's worth.

Does anyone attempt to cover their own ass on being wrong as well as Chump? There is no length he won't go to...he has no shame. Has got to be a lawyer.

What did he just say to rationalize his all time ass kicking in the Manu Vs Hedo debate?

Something like...if Manu wasn't Manu and if Hedo wasn't Hedo, Hedo might be the better player?

Typical dump...Even N.Cali...the instigator of the Manu Hedo conflict, just came out and admitted he was wrong...while Chump is still living in denial.


Chump, if you had balls you'd be a man...and you might even have some credibility in this argument.

[Manu20]

I like Horry but I don't want him to be the first Big man of the bench. That should Malik Rose especially the way he is playing right now.

In crunch time Horry has done nothing dating to the Lakers series and I rather have Malik in there.

[ChumpDumper]

I said if Hedo plays to his potential. He became a real defender last year and is averaging exactly the same ppg as Manu this year. Can he continue to develop until he reaces his full potential? Probably not, given the fact he doesn't give a shit. The Spurs absolutely made the right decision when it came down to keeping Manu or Hedo, and there's no way Hedo was worth the contract he got. I have said as much 100 times over and this bitch Hoot still thinks Shane Heal had mad NBA game.

Who(ttt)'s in denial?

[ChumpDumper]

Look, all this comes down to Hootie's fetish for the guy he thinks can make the big play in crunch time. He thought Shane Heal could do it and he still thinks Horry can, which may or may not be true as no one can really remember the last time it happened. That's all well and good, but the simple reality of the NBA is that regular rotation players get hurt, and Spurs not named Duncan are fallable players who get benched when they suck. Backups on this team need to be ready and able to play extended minutes when the call does come. THAT is why guys like LJ are concerned that Horry is being outboarded this year by the likes of such Rodmanesque board hogs like Junior Harrington, Erick Strickland and the pariah Hedo. It's also why we're concerned he's currently the worst defender of all our bigs by far.

None of our bigs save Duncan are consistently great. That Horry has been consistently bad is cause for concern no matter what he did in the past. Thank God Rose's head is out of his ass more often than not this year.

[E20]

Whottt go suck Horry's penis. Horry hasn't been clutch for 2 years. He's declining. You can see it in his stats and clutchness. Sure he can hit the open three and 'maybe' guard some long three's but, he's not what he used to be. He's a good veteran with experience and knows how to win but he hasn't been able to do that in the past 2 years.

[Solid D]

Whottt, I know you think Robert Horry can still contribute those special little things that makes a team tick and also knock down that ultimate shot at that moment when all others have discounted him. I agree that he knows how to play and has tremendous experience but his execution is starting to fade.

I think the ideal scenario for you and all of us would be for Robert to contribute positively, help win another ring, then gradually move down the bench at minimum money, replacing Mass or Marks, and make way for a younger, more aggressive "big" who can contribute with passing, screen-setting, scoring, rebounding, defense, energy and spirit, some physicality, in 15-18 minutes of bench support.

and then Robert retires with another ring and enters another type of ring...

with the Undertaker in the WWE!!! True Whottt Bliss will have then been achieved. :)

http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/graphics/wwearm04.jpg

[timvp]

Nice.

:rollin

[whottt]

Um the Undertaker sucks ass and is a seflish piece of crap that refuses to job to other wrestlers or put them over in anyway..I won't pay a plug nickel to watch the Undertaker..and that's Paul Wight AKA "the big show" in that pic by the way, a true class act and renassiance man of pro wrestling...a very intelligent, talented, and articulate guy who just happens to weigh about 400 pounds is 6'10 and makes other wreslters a third of his size look like they are masters of the ring.......not the piece of biker trash that the UT is.

It's funny that you guys diss wrestling fans but are so ingorant that many of these players that you guys are fans of are also wrestling fans...a lot of NBA players are wrestling fans...Not just Malone and Rodman...

Didn't you guys notice the Pistons wearing authentic WWE replica title belts at their ring ceremony?

Yeah, the same belt Chris Benoit wore is one the Pistons can only buy a copy of, and actually wear in the moment of greatest professional honor in their careers......Keep laughing.

And there is tremendous irony of San Antonians laughing...San Antonio has produced more pro-wrestlers than just about any other city.

That was Stone Cold Steve Austin in the Lakers lockerroom as they celebrated bouncing our ass from the playoffs...Shawn Michaels is a legendary Spurfan...

[timvp]

:lmao

[whottt]

http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20041102/DET_rasheed_84524.jpg

Keep laughing...

[ChumpDumper]

We will.

We will.

[whottt]

http://espn.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/ben_wallace_belt.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Now post the pic with you wearing yours.

[whottt]

The only one I have is the one where I am wearing it after mounting you mama. Ask her where it is.

[ChumpDumper]

She's dead.

That's pretty sick, but not wholly unexpected from you.

[whottt]

Join her.

[ChumpDumper]

So you can violate my corpse too, sickie?

[whottt]

What ever flips your switch...but I'm getting pretty sick of you having relatives or friends that get in the way of my talking shit...either you need to start being less sensitive or you need to realize just who it is you are arguing with.

[smeagol]

Man this debate got nasty really fast.

I'm not siding with Whottt on this issue becuase I would like to see Scola with the Spurs uniform. Nevertheless, Horry should not be cut off just yet. He should play for the minimum until its no longer worth it.


I said if Hedo plays to his potential.


But Chump, on the Manu vs. Hedo debate, all you have to say is "I was wrong". That shit about Hedo playing to his potential is just that: SHIT.

It's like me saying: If Manu scored 25 ppg and didn't turn the ball that many times, he would be a better player than Hedo.

Manu>>>>>>Hedo and there is no question about it.

[Rummpd]

It's good to see that winners like Horry get this. It's disheartening to see that many SpursFans, like boutons, dump and Rummpd don't.



I don't mind Horry actually at all! If he is what he should be = a 9-12 man. Rose who is paid like a 6th man and over his career has justified that payment in my opinion, should stay as the first replacement at PF/C = much tougher inside and Horry is too soft as a rebounder. Plus Horry as a savy veteran is less likely to come in the game and press as Rose might playing less minutes.

Now if Horry can start rebounding some, I might change my opinion to bring into the top 8 as he is an excellent defender and the Spurs are struggling on the 3 (but not for sure Horry would improve that).


MadDoc

[boutons]

The "this" I "get" about Horry, apart from his sickly stats, is that he is blowing his defensive assignments instead of being an "excellent defender". Last night twice (and in earlier games noted by timvp), Robert blew defense big and had Pop on his ass, Horry looking at the bench plaintively, confusedly. It's not as if Horry has the excuse that he is still learing Spurs defensive schemes. Horry is playing so little, he really needs to play solid defense and rebound for the little time he's in there, or he will end up playing even less. Pop is still giving him the minutes and counting on him to come through. And so am I.

[violentkitten]

whottt has so many issues he should get a belt just for that

[Karl Mundt]

Um the Undertaker sucks ass and is a seflish piece of crap that refuses to job to other wrestlers or put them over in anyway..I won't pay a plug nickel to watch the Undertaker..and that's Paul Wight AKA "the big show" in that pic by the way, a true class act and renassiance man of pro wrestling...a very intelligent, talented, and articulate guy who just happens to weigh about 400 pounds is 6'10 and makes other wreslters a third of his size look like they are masters of the ring.......not the piece of biker trash that the UT is.

It's funny that you guys diss wrestling fans but are so ingorant that many of these players that you guys are fans of are also wrestling fans...a lot of NBA players are wrestling fans...Not just Malone and Rodman...

Didn't you guys notice the Pistons wearing authentic WWE replica title belts at their ring ceremony?

Yeah, the same belt Chris Benoit wore is one the Pistons can only buy a copy of, and actually wear in the moment of greatest professional honor in their careers......Keep laughing.

And there is tremendous irony of San Antonians laughing...San Antonio has produced more pro-wrestlers than just about any other city.

That was Stone Cold Steve Austin in the Lakers lockerroom as they celebrated bouncing our ass from the playoffs...Shawn Michaels is a legendary Spurfan...

You watch these things on TV and you can't help but wonder who in the world watches this crap? :rolleyes

[whottt]

You watch these things on TV and you can't help but wonder who in the world watches this crap? :rolleyes

Yeah? Well you name sounds like you are an ex SS officer ducking the Mossad, who should be facing war criminal charges in Oslo...figures you would judge something harshly that you don't understand.

It does better TV ratings than the NBA.

Lots of NBA players and other athletes like it.

It's just hard to explain the appeal, you either get it or you don't. I happened to grow up around it...and those guys are as tough as any athletes anywhere...actually I think they are the toughest.

Personally I think soccer sucks, who wants to watch a bunch of effeminent looking guys, whose ass I could kick, run around chasing each other like goldfish in a bowl, for 4 hours.

[smeagol]

You watch these things on TV and you can't help but wonder who in the world watches this crap? :rolleyes

Agreed.

[violentkitten]

probably someone with a handle of "smeagol"

[Slo spurs fan]

Yeah? Well you name sounds like you are an ex SS officer ducking the Mossad, who should be facing war criminal charges in Oslo...figures you would judge something harshly that you don't understand.

Now this is something very smart from whottt

It does better TV ratings than the NBA.

Lots of NBA players and other athletes like it.

It's just hard to explain the appeal, you either get it or you don't. I happened to grow up around it...and those guys are as tough as any athletes anywhere...actually I think they are the toughest.

Personally I think soccer sucks, who wants to watch a bunch of effeminent looking guys, whose ass I could kick, run around chasing each other like goldfish in a bowl, for 4 hours.

First of all soccer game is 2x45 min long with 15 min pause.
Soccer is most watched (and played) sport EVER on this PLANET!
And last but not least WWF is for dumb impotent suckers whos has nothing smarter to do.

[smeagol]

First of all soccer game is 2x45 min long with 15 min pause.
Soccer is most watched (and played) sport EVER on this PLANET!
And last but not least WWF is for dumb impotent suckers whos has nothing smarter to do.
Beware of Whottt's wrath!

[violentkitten]

oh its getting good

smeagol get me a beer

[whottt]

First of all soccer game is 2x45 min long with 15 min pause.
Soccer is most watched (and played) sport EVER on this PLANET!
And last but not least WWF is for dumb impotent suckers whos has nothing smarter to do.


I bet you're wrong...I bet you that wrestling pre-dated Soccer...I bet you that more people have wrestled in the history of the world than have played Soccer. And I bet you that people wrestle in more countries than play Soccer.

Was Soccer an athletic event at the ancient Olympics?

Thanks for playing.

And furthermore, I bet you that any WWE wrestler could whip the living shit out of any Soccer player on the planet...fake or not.

You know Alex Karlein was about an inch way from signing a contract with the WWE before Putin offered to make him like a king in Russia and keep Russia's national hero in Russia...

I want you to go up to Alexi Karelein and tell him he is a dumb impotent sucker. Please...go do it.

[violentkitten]

who watches wrestling anymore? man i gave that up in the eighties along with my members only jacket my parachute pants and my dukes of hazzard lunchbox

[whottt]

True. I think I'm one of the ones who gets it.

That's why I don't watch wrestling. :)

Maybe you don't but a lot of the players you watch do. Surely you see the irony?

[Slo spurs fan]

I bet you're wrong...I bet you that wrestling pre-dated Soccer...I bet you that more people have wrestled in the history of the world than have played Soccer. And I bet you that people wrestle in more countries than play Soccer.

Was Soccer an athletic event at the ancient Olympics?

Thanks for playing.

And furthermore, I bet you that any WWE wrestler could whip the living shit out of any Soccer player on the planet...fake or not.

You know Alex Karlein was about an inch way from signing a contract with the WWE before Putin offered to make him like a king in Russia and keep Russia's national hero in Russia...

I want you to go up to Alexi Karelein and tell him he is a dumb impotent sucker. Please...go do it.

Your bet is lost!
Even european Champions league is most watched (not only in Europe but in the world) then WWF, you know, sports are not played only in America! Not to mention World cop or continental cups!

And remember that agressivnes is not allways good!

[whottt]

Your bet is lost!
Even european Champions league is most watched (not only in Europe but in the world) then WWF, you know, sports are not played only in America! Not to mention World cop or continental cups!

And remember that agressivnes is not allways good!


Just because it's the most watched TV event doesn't mean it's the most watched event period. Wrestling requires less equipment than Soccer kids every where wrestle...every man alive on this planet, that can walk, in the history of this planet, has wrestled at some point or another.

So there!

[Kori Ellis]

Okay enough, get back on topic. The last few posts are being deleted.

Thanks.

[Slo spurs fan]

Just because it's the most watched TV event doesn't mean it's the most watched event period. Wrestling requires less equipment than Soccer kids every where wrestle...every man alive on this planet, that can walk, in the history of this planet, has wrestled at some point or another.

So there!


Yes, but this is not the same wrestling. If you want to compare "ordinary" wrestle and WWF you must see wrestling in greek-rome style!!!! This wrestling is "played" all-around globe and not WWF style. I mean, none of us ever wrestle in ring or I'm wrong?

Sorry, Kori, but i was too slow!

[whottt]

Actually slo, that's kind of a myth now.....it was only totally true in the 80's. The cartoon era.

Freestyle wrestling is popular the world over now, just like Greco Roman.

The thing is...these guys in the WWE...most of them, they are real fighters...

Kurt Angle the 96 Gold Medalist in Olympic Freestyle, who won a gold medal with a broken neck...he's in the WWE. He says pro-wrestling is tougher.

Ken Shamrock a mutiple time UFE shootfighting champion...this is the toughest form of fighting..it's boxing, martial arts, and wrestling all rolled into one, it's very real...he wrestled in the WWE...and his style of fighting is submission wrestling.

Historically, many of the NCAA champs in Greco Roman and Freestyle, like Jack Briscoe, have gone on to be pro-wrestlers...there's a couple of NCAA champs in the WWE right now.

I already mentioned Karelein...who should be a big name in your part of the world...the greatest wrestler in History... it was a done deal that he was going to the WWE...the only reason he didn't is because Putin didn't want Russia's national hero on a show like the WWE in America...

The 2004 Olympic Gold Medalist in Greco Roman Wrestling 96KG class, Karam Ibrahim of Egypt...has been trying to land a contract with the WWE since before he won his Olympic Gold, he loves the WWE. This guy is a bad ass as well, he's going to end up being the best one since Karelein. Same type of thing with Karelein though...this guy won the first gold medal for Egypt since 1960 and the Egyptian Government isn't crazy about him becoming an American TV Star on the WWE. I think he has signed the contract and is already on the WWE though.

The thing is...to a man...all these guys that have done both will tell you that it is harder to be a pro-wrestler than it is to be an amateur wrestler...the physical beating you take nearly every night...is much harder than anything encountered in amateur wrestling. The guys that have wrestled and played othered sports will tell you it's much more physical than any other pro-sport...you fight someone and get thrown on your back and neck nearly every night.

Yes the outcome is pre-determined but these guys don't care about that...they care about beating the crap out of each other and making the fans forget the outcome is predermined. So no...it's a legitimate atheltic competition mostly....most ofthe stuff they do to each other is real...it's just that at a certain point they know one guy is going to win...by knowing what's going to happen in advance they can choreograph it to to make the match more exciting.

To diminish what these guys do in the ring...is a gross mistake. A lot of them get broken necks, broken backs, broken arms, broken legs and come back to do it again. Kurt Angle has had his neck broken twice in the WWE.

A lot of them will finish there careers nearly crippled and die at a very young age for the beatings they gave their bodies just to entertain their fans. What other athletics do people do that in? You don't have to like what they do...but to diminish what they do as being something lesser than most people do, most athletes do, is a big mistake, it's exactly the opposite.

Pretty much they play an American Football Game every night.


Oh and Shaq is a wrestling fan I hear he's going to be a reserve for the Spurs in a few years[/On Topic]

[Slo spurs fan]

O.K., whottt, but will you watch bball if you could know who is going to win? :rolleyes
I certainly wont!

[whottt]

O.K., whottt, but will you watch bball if you could know who is going to win? :rolleyes
I certainly wont!


That's the thing...just because they know who is going to win doesn't mean I know who it's going to be....and if they are doing their jobs well I will forget about the fact that they know who is going to win.



It's better than a movie fight...you watch movies don't you? Well in movies you always know the good guy is going to win...that's not true in wrestling. So why makes you sit through a movie fight? You have a better idea of who is going to win than you do in a wrestling match...you know no one is really going to die or injure themselves in that fight....well in wrestling you don't know who is going to win, even though they do, and some of the stuff they do you aren't certain they are going to come out of it alive or uninjured.


I think what you are asking me is if I would watch basketball if I knew the outcome was predertimined...Probably not...but basketball doesn't have guys jumping off of 20 foot cages and risking their lives in the playing of it...there's a difference there.

LOL, and the funny thing is that many people do think the NBA is pre-determined and the officials know who is going to win...if you ever see a guy named LakerLanny on these boards ask him why he still watches...