Civil war in Ukraine?

[velik_m]

Yushchenko orders troops to Kiev

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko has ordered several thousand interior ministry troops to head to the capital Kiev amid a political crisis.

The order came as the president held talks with his bitter rival, Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, in Kiev.

The talks, which were delayed by several hours, were aimed at resolving an increasingly serious power struggle between the two leaders.

The two held late-night talks on Friday but failed to reach an agreement.

'Prevent provocations'

The deputy head of the interior ministry - which is loyal to Mr Yanukovych - said that the troops were being led by a commander loyal to Mr Yushchenko and acting in defiance of ministry orders.

The troops are reported to have driven towards the capital Kiev in a fleet of buses, and are thought to be carrying only riot gear and not lethal weapons.

"Moving the interior troops into the city is necessary to guarantee a calm life for the city, to prevent provocations," Ivan Plyushch, the head of the national security council, was quoted as saying on the presidential website, the Associated Press reported.

But "practically all of them have been stopped in different places", AFP news agency quoted Mykhaylo Korniyenko as saying.

Mr Yushchenko said he was assuming control of the 40,000 Interior Ministry troops on Friday.

His order came a day after riot police - acting on the orders of the interior minister - defended the offices of Ukraine's prosecutor-general, a Yanukovych ally who Mr Yushchenko had sacked.

Snap poll

Saturday's talks finally started after several hours' delay.



Key lawmakers, including opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko, were also expected to attend.

The arch rivals are expected to discuss when to hold an early parliamentary election, says the BBC's Helen Fawkes in Kiev.

Both men agree that there has to be a new vote to resolve their dispute, our correspondent says.

Mr Yushchenko became president in January 2005 following the pro-democracy Orange Revolution, which overturned a rigged victory for Mr Yanukovych.

But Mr Yushchenko was forced to accept his rival as prime minister after his allies failed to win a majority in the March 2006 parliamentary election, and the two men have repeatedly clashed.

In April, Mr Yushchenko dissolved parliament and called a snap election, accusing his rival of trying to usurp his power.

Mr Yanukovych and his governing coalition initially rejected the move but later agreed in principle with the president to hold early elections. Now the two sides have to fix a date for the polls.

The president favours closer ties with the West, while the prime minister is seen as more pro-Russian.

There is growing international concern over the situation in the country. The EU has urged both parties to settle the deepening crisis though negotiation and not resort to violence.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6694533.stm

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WHO CONTROLS WHAT?
President Yushchenko commands the 300,000-strong armed forces
Interior Ministry commands 40,000 troops and more than 200,000 police
Commander of Interior Ministry troops Oleksandr Kikhtenko is loyal to Mr Yushchenko
Mr Yushchenko said he was taking command of Interior Ministry troops on Friday

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Thank god they gave up nuclear weapons.

[exstatic]

I expect us to intervene so the supply of Chicken Kiev is uninterrupted.

[Extra Stout]

Let's see here:

Troops and police:
Yuschenko - 540,000
Yanukovych - 0

Unless Russia invades, where's the conflict?

[velik_m]

Yanukovych was elected.

[Extra Stout]

Yanukovych was elected.
What you'd have in that case is a coup d'etat, not a civil war.

[Extra Stout]

Unless the people of Ukraine plan to take to the streets?

[velik_m]

Q&A: Ukraine political crisis

Ukraine's long-running political crisis has taken a dramatic new turn, with a power struggle over command of the interior ministry troops.

Once again President Viktor Yushchenko, a pro-Western liberal, is exchanging angry words with Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, whose supporters favour closer ties with Russia.

Here we examine the background to the crisis.

What triggered the latest war of words?

President Yushchenko decided to dismiss the prosecutor general, Svyatoslav Piskun, an ally of the prime minister. That led to a dramatic storming of the prosecutor general's office on 24 May by riot police and Interior Minister Vasyl Tsushko, who claimed the president was usurping power.

President Yushchenko hit back by placing the 40,000 interior ministry troops under his direct command. Prime Minister Yanukovych then condemned his action, saying it violated the constitution. The interior ministry said it would defy the president's order.

Can this be resolved peacefully?

This year Ukraine has seen massive street rallies in support of Mr Yanukovych, similar to the ones that Mr Yushchenko staged during his Orange Revolution back in late 2004. It was the revolution that swept him to power, overturning the election of Mr Yanukovych, which was widely condemned as fraudulent.

But Mr Yanukovych staged a dramatic comeback, rallying supporters in his stronghold - the mainly Russian-speaking east of Ukraine. He became prime minister in August 2006.

All this happened without bloodshed, so the latest standoff may also be resolved without clashes.

Mr Yanukovych has warned this time that the "use of force scenario" has begun - but again that may be sabre-rattling. Mr Yushchenko commands the army.

Serious political turmoil would definitely not be in the interests of the financial backers of either leader.

What is parliament doing about it?

President Yushchenko dissolved parliament on 2 April and called early elections. Tensions have been running high since then, with Mr Yanukovych and his allies disputing the president's authority to do so.

At one stage, the two leaders announced they had reached a compromise - but MPs who stand to lose from early elections said they would not support it. So the political system has been paralysed by arguments over who has authority to do what.

Ukraine's constitution provides for a presidential political system, but successive legislation has transferred many powers to the prime minister and parliament. This has led to a legal quagmire, with electoral law, the constitution and parliamentary standing orders contradicting each other.

Mr Yanukovych has built a majority in parliament, with the help of communists and socialists. But Mr Yushchenko has accused him of poaching parliamentary deputies from other blocs, in violation of the constitution. He says the constitution only allows whole parliamentary blocs to change sides, not individuals.

Mr Yanukovych currently controls about 250 seats in parliament. If he were to reach 300, he could reject presidential vetoes, vote through changes to the constitution, and impeach the president.

Has the president the power to dissolve parliament?

The constitution lists three situations in which the president has the right to dissolve parliament, and the poaching of deputies is not among them. On the other hand, it does say presidential decrees must be fulfilled.

Constitutional reforms carried out as a result of the Orange Revolution weakened the president and strengthened parliament - but Mr Yushchenko and Mr Yanukovych have clashed over the details.

Would new elections resolve the problem?

It depends on the result.

It is quite possible that Mr Yanukovych's party will be returned again as the largest party, in which case little would have changed. The only other leader with a chance of leading a parliamentary majority after the election is Mr Yushchenko's Orange Revolution ally, Yulia Tymoshenko.

She and Mr Yushchenko fell out when he sacked her as prime minister in September 2005. They are now on the same side again, but it is not clear how strong the relationship is.

Can the constitutional court resolve the problem?

In theory, yes. One of the encouraging things about this crisis is that both sides justify their actions in terms of the law and the constitution, so they ought to obey court rulings.

On the other hand, both sides have already made appeals to the court over the last eight months, and the court has yet to rule on a single case. So the court may not provide a quick way out.

Could the political course once again be determined by mass protests?

This seems unlikely. Mass street protests occurred in 2004, as a result of years of frustration bottled up during the presidency of Leonid Kuchma. As the protests gathered strength, euphoria swept through the pro-Western part of the population that was most hungry for change. These same people are now mostly deeply disillusioned by the last two years of political compromises and internal bickering.

Mr Yanukovych's supporters are hampered by the fact that their power base is in the east of the country rather than in the capital, Kiev.

Could the country split?

This is always a worry in Ukraine when politicians seen as pro-Western (Mr Yushchenko) and pro-Russian (Mr Yanukovych) are in conflict with one another.

It is broadly true that the west of the country is pro-European and the east is pro-Russian. However, Mr Yanukovych has not been militantly pro-Russian as prime minister. He even intervened to stop regions in the east of the country unilaterally introducing Russian as a second state language - even though upgrading the status of the Russian language was one of his manifesto pledges.

Does this crisis matter to the wider world?

Any kind of armed conflict in Ukraine would bring with it the risk of a Russian intervention, which would cause major east-west tensions.

A long-running political stand-off could paralyse the country, but would probably not have many repercussions overseas. Russia was unhappy about what it regarded as Western interference in the Orange Revolution, and the West was critical of Russia's open support for Mr Yanukovych, but relations were not seriously affected.

The main pipeline delivering Russian gas to Europe passes through Ukraine, but there would not appear to be any threat to supplies at present.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6521707.stm

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KEY DATES
21 Nov 04 Yanukovych declared winner of presidential election - protests begin
3 Dec 04 Election annulled
11 Jan 05 Yushchenko declared winner of re-run election
8 Sep 05 Yushchenko sacks Tymoshenko government
26 Mar 06 Yanukovych party wins most votes in general election
3 Aug 06 After four-month deadlock, Yushchenko agrees Yanukovych can be PM
2 Apr 07 Yushchenko issues decree dissolving parliament

[velik_m]

Unless the people of Ukraine plan to take to the streets?

I don't know, people in Kiev support Yushchenko, but in other parts of country...

I also doubt all troops are so loyal, Yushchenko came to power not so long ago.

[Extra Stout]

The Ukraine is notable in the US for the following reasons:

1) The Yalta Conference in 1945
2) Chernobyl
3) Having one of the few country names which in the English language is preceded by the definite article (along with the Congo and the USA)

[velik_m]

4) Milla Jovovich

[Extra Stout]

4) Milla Jovovich
She's definitely jgw's type.

[whottt]

Never thought people would fight so much over......Ice.

Since America is basically attempting for closer relations with Russia(not an easy task with the distrustful Ruskies)...from my POV I don't see a real huge difference between them....it's not like one is commie and the other isn't.


The most important thing to me is seeing legitimate and free elections and a peaceful transfer of power and seeing the leaders act accordingly to the will of the people...that's the key to stability, and if you are stable you can then pursue a better quality of life.

Constant revolution is the #1 internal factor that turns countries into oppressive shit holes.

So I hope it isn't a civil war because if there were to be it would be for all the wrong reasons...

Both of these guys seem to have issues with the concept of peaceful exchange of power...and most likely want to be the King of the Ukraine. I hope that isn't the case, and if it is...I hope the Ukranian people see through it...

IMO, neither is worth tearing their country up for...and encouraging political revolution for personal gain is not the act of a great leader.

I'd just have to take a closer look at it to have a more speciffic opinion on who is the better leader...I don't think one being Pro-Russia and the other being Pro-Europe is a major difference...since this is Russia we are talking about...not the Soviet Union.

I don't see Russia as an ideological enemy anymore...and haven't for a long time. I do think they are economic competitors...but then so is Europe...still, the whole benefit to national competition at the economic level, is that it isn't war.

[whottt]

5) It's that big ass territory on the Risk Board

[velik_m]

Never thought people would fight so much over......Ice.

More like swamp.