With war on terror, Blair losing battle for hearts of British Muslims: poll

[smackdaddy11]

The title of the article doesn't do the real issue justice.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20041129/wl_uk_afp/britain_politics_muslims

Mon Nov 29, 6:16 PM ET


LONDON (AFP) - Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) and his Labour Party have dramatically lost the support of British Muslims, who have switched allegiance to the opposition Liberal Democrats, according to a poll published.


AFP Photo



Eighty percent of the country's Muslims reject Blair's claims that the war on terror was not against Islam, up from 68 percent in March, according to an ICM poll carried out for the Guardian newspaper.


Labour was once seen as the natural home of ethnic minority voters, with an estimated 75 percent of Muslims who voted at the last election thought to have backed Blair, the ICM poll said.


However, Labour has dropped six points to 32 percent since March, while the main opposition Conservative Party has dropped nine points to 16 percent. The Liberal Democrats, Britain's third party, are up five on 41 percent.

At the same time the number saying they have heard of hostility or abuse towards Muslims because of their religion is up five points to 38 percent.


Blair faces growing opposition not just from Muslims but from the larger British public over his active military support for the US-led invasion and occupation of Iraq (news - web sites).


Meanwhile, a clear majority, 61 percent of Muslims back Islamic law (Sharia) courts to settle civil cases within Britain's Islamic community as long as penalties do not break the law.

Suprize: They want their own law for Muslims. They'll start there.

Fifty-five percent said schools should not be allowed to ban pupils from wearing the Hijab, or Islamic headscarf, on the premises.

This sounds real secular.

Eighty-eight percent say schools and workplaces should accommodate Muslim prayer times as part of their normal day. Some 51 percent say they pray five times every day, 46 percent of men and 68 percent of women.

In Schools? At Work? Aren't the Libs against all of this? Wake it up people.

Overall, British Muslims are optimistic for the future, with 44 percent saying they expect the position of themselves and their families to improve while 33 percent say it will get worse.


ICM interviewed a random sample of 500 Muslim people by telephone between November 15 and 21.


Some 1.6 to two million of Britain's 60 million people are Muslims.

If immigration isn't stopped, It'll be 10 Million + in 10 years. There goes Mother England.

[violentkitten]

what wrong with people who are different from you living as they want to

[smackdaddy11]

what wrong with people who are different from you living as they want to

vk,

Ever heard of "when in Rome, do as the Romans do"? They want to move to Rome and do what THEY want to do.

[violentkitten]

so they want to live free and according to their values


Meanwhile, a clear majority, 61 percent of Muslims back Islamic law (Sharia) courts to settle civil cases within Britain's Islamic community as long as penalties do not break the law.

Suprize: They want their own law for Muslims. They'll start there.

if the penalties dont break the law whats the problem?

[smackdaddy11]

O.K. Kitty.

So now every group in a country can create their own penalties for a group? Why have countries. Let's just go back 1500 years and have tribes.

When you live in a country, you respect the countries valus and traditions. If you don't like them, move to one whose ideals are closer to yours. If they want Sharia law, go to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Jordan etc...

You like communism, go to Cuba. You like socialism, move to Canada, France, Germany.

If you like Capitalism, go to U.S.A., Australia, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong.

If you cannot see the inherent danger of this, I can't help.

[violentkitten]

you just hate the a-rabs, thats all

[JoeChalupa]

You can move to the USA and enjoy the freedoms so many of take for granted.

[exstatic]

You can move to the USA and enjoy the freedoms so many of take for granted.

As long as you're a Christian, apparently.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

so they want to live free and according to their values

The problem is, they don't want other people to live free and according to their values, they want them all to convert to Islam.

Apply the same thing here in the US kitty, are you ready to die if you don't convert to Islam? Because that's what is coming down the pipe if Muslim "conservatives" like Osama get their way.

[E20]

Aggie you know Islam right? What's the saying? There is no complusion in religon. Shouldn't someone tell that to Osama and most Muslims do consider if you have freedom of choice and you can choose what you want to do with your life. (not the extremists)

[violentkitten]

aggie dont care he thinks all those browns look the same

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

E20,

The problem is the mindset of AQ is growing in the Muslim community worldwide. Clerics preaching hate, things like what's going on in the Netherlands, England, Germany, etc.

No one's preaching tolerance there, about the only tolerance I see being yelled for is the Muslims asking for the "tolerance" of non-Muslims while they (Muslims) continue to preach hate, annihilation of the infidels, etc.

I've studied it, and I don't think Islam in and of itself is inherently evil, the problem is right now I look around the world and all the "leaders" of Islam seem to be at least tacitly approving the work of people like Osama and Zarqawi, if not openly supporting their work.

Until I see Muslim leaders stand up and fight to reclaim their religion and the ability to live peacefully with the rest of the world, I consider it a lost cause, and one that seems destined to come to a head with a world wide religious war (Crusades Pt. II if you will) sometime probably in the lifetime of my children or grandchildren.

It's a fight that could be headed off if we deal with it now. The irony is after van Gogh's murder it appears a lof of previously tolerant folks in Europe are bringing the discussion to the forefront with hopes of coming to a solution, while the liberal left here in America continues to go about its day to day life with its head up its collective Bush hating ass.

[exstatic]

The problem is, they don't want other people to live free and according to their values, they want them all to convert to Islam.

Substitute the word 'Christianity' and you pretty much have my issues with the RR in a nutshell.

[E20]

Can't argue much with Aggie on that. Even though AQ is obvisously breaking there own religon's laws.

[GoldToe]

I think Blair is suffering because he fell for Bush's and his own intelligence, yeah right, and was duped into this war. He is almost ready to poke a fork in but not quite done yet.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

ex,

I've got friends that are those types of "RRs", and I get tired of their shit too. Problem is they're not running around crashing airliners into skyscrapers as part of a "defensive war."

E20,

Another one of my frustrations... the literacy problems in the Middle East contribute to the problem because many over there aren't even literate enough to read the Qur'an, and only get told what is supposedly in it by the clerics preaching the hate/bashing the infidels, etc.

Honestly the public relations side of thing in that part of the world is probably my biggest beef with the Bush administration, because I think they're doing a poor job in that area. Getting better, but still got a lot more work to do.

[exstatic]

I've got friends that are those types of "RRs", and I get tired of their shit too. Problem is they're not running around crashing airliners into skyscrapers as part of a "defensive war."

I thought this thread was about politics in Britain. As for Christian terrorism, it's already here: Abortion clinic bombings and doctor assasinations. The Muslims started small, too.

[smackdaddy11]

Look. A Muslim source. Feel better now.

http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=250

November 30, 2004
By Ibrahim Abdul Mu'min
[email protected]

There was a time in the history of Islam and the World when the phrase “Muslim Intolerance” might have been considered an oxymoron. Today, however, the open-minded, tolerant Muslim seems, sadly, to be in the minority.

Our Muslim community is filled with a seething rage at something they cannot define so they call it, the way of infidels, unbelief, America, or “the Jewish Conspiracy”.

I have just been a victim of this madness and intolerance last Friday at my local Mosque after Friday prayers. I know many of you have stopped going to the mosque because of this idiocy, but I won’t stop. Anyway, I had given an outspoken Anti-Israeli Arab Muslim an article to read, written by the founder of “Free Egyptians”. It was not a very confrontational article; written in Arabic and English, suggesting that the Israeli-Palestinian debacle might be better served without violence…WOW…I was really surprised by the viciousness and hatred I brought down on my head, and I didn’t even write it! So much for the calm exchange of ideas that some of you tell me to engage in…the incident strengthened my resolve to keep going to this Mosque that would like nothing better than to see me gone. I wrote this little piece on my return home.



The whole contemporary Arab-Palestinian culture, so it seems to me, is based on hatred…hatred of life…hatred of Jews…hatred of America and the west. The poor Palestinian people themselves have been manipulated and all but destroyed by corrupt leaders (with billions of dollars in the bank) and Islamic-Fascists that have twisted Islam and The Quar’an into a system of hate. Please don’t write to me and tell me I am against the Palestinians and oblivious to their struggle, I am not…I am against terrorism, violence and murder as a means to achieving their goals.



They have even taught this system of hate to their children. These children, and those yet to be born, will never be able to make the ascent into a new world. They will have new bodies, with new fresh blood in them, born for a new epoch of peace and co-operation among Mankind. Surely, that’s what children have always been born for, to usher in a new age, with new bodies and blood, a new song in their mouths.



However, from where I stand, I fear the twisted hearts and minds of their Fathers will still inhabit their new bodies and blood. The hatred shouted and whispered into their new ears will deny them a life…their new blood will be spilled in vain, never to sing the new song of freedom from tyranny and hatred.



I pray for the children…born and unborn.



He admits the moderates are outnumbered. So I guess those evil christians are still the threat to the world, correct?

[IcemanCometh]

http://www.geriengberg.com/muslim%20womanpublish_thumb.jpg


BOOOOOO

I'm coming to get you smackdaddy!

[violentkitten]

when was the last abortion clinic bombing

[smackdaddy11]

I thought this thread was about politics in Britain. As for Christian terrorism, it's already here: Abortion clinic bombings and doctor assasinations. The Muslims started small, too.


Falwell, Robertson, Graham, and the Pope all Condemed this action immediately after it happened.

Arabs danced in the street when the towers were hit. Imams all over the world justified the actions.

Your hatred of Christianity is blinding you to the real threat.

[smackdaddy11]

http://www.geriengberg.com/muslim%20womanpublish_thumb.jpg


BOOOOOO

I'm coming to get you smackdaddy!


She doesn't get a burqa on ASAP, or God forbid, she try to get an education, she is in as much danger as me and YOU.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The whole contemporary Arab-Palestinian culture, so it seems to me, is based on hatred…hatred of life…hatred of Jews…hatred of America and the west.

Exactly, think about how much the left was hating on anything Republican in the lead up to the election, then add in violence. That's where the Muslim culture is largely already at.

[Spurminator]

I think this kind of talk is dangerous. Instead of criticising Islam in general, we should be criticising the clerics who preach hate in their Mosques. I don't like to be criticised for my Christian beliefs when someone attacks an abortion clinic or when a Klansman recites a passage from the Bible, and I would imagine peaceful Muslims don't like to have their beliefs connected to violence either.

If Americans choose to paint all/most/many Muslims as terrorist sympathisers, why should the peaceful majority of Islam give a shit about us?

The enemy is not Islam. America needs the support of the many Muslims who despise terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.

[smackdaddy11]

I think this kind of talk is dangerous. Instead of criticising Islam in general, we should be criticising the clerics who preach hate in their Mosques. I don't like to be criticised for my Christian beliefs when someone attacks an abortion clinic or when a Klansman recites a passage from the Bible, and I would imagine peaceful Muslims don't like to have their beliefs connected to violence either.

If Americans choose to paint all/most/many Muslims as terrorist sympathisers, why should the peaceful majority of Islam give a shit about us?

The enemy is not Islam. America needs the support of the many Muslims who despise terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.


The Islamists you discuss are extremely silent and have been since I've been around. I haven't seen one demonstration in the U.S. against radical Islam.

If I can't see a large group who will defend their religion from the extremists, how do I know their real beliefs?

[Spurminator]

Plenty of Muslims have criticised terrorist actions. I'm not sure what kind of demonstrations would be appropriate... and I don't think we've seen any Christian rallies against their extremists either.

The best way to understand Muslim culture and beliefs is to get to know them. That's not going to come easily if they are afraid to talk to non-Muslims because we think they're all terrorist sympathisers.

[Spurminator]

Here are a few sites...

Muslims Against Terrorism (http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm)

Muslims express outrage (http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7578-.html)

How Muslims Really Responded to 9/11 (http://www.mediamonitors.net/riadabdelkarim3.html)

You may not see many of them at pro-War rallies, but I don't think it's fair to say they are hoping we lose...

[smackdaddy11]

I'm not sure what kind of demonstrations would be appropriate... and I don't think we've seen any Christian rallies against their extremists either

As soon as some radical christian slams plnes into bulidings in the name of my God, I'll feel the need for a rally.



The best way to understand Muslim culture and beliefs is to get to know them. That's not going to come easily if they are afraid to talk to non-Muslims because we think they're all terrorist sympathisers.


It's been over 3 years since 9/11. I'm still waiting for Muslims around the world to condemn the actions of the supposed few.

Until I know I can trust them, I'm not going to get blindsided. This doesn't mean i dislike them, just I'll keep them at a distance.

[Spurminator]

I'm still not exactly sure what sort of condemnation you're looking for. A Million Muslim March?

Hopefully the sites I posted will help.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I like the Muslims Against Terrorism group, it's long overdue, but while it's refreshing to see, it's certainly not making a dent in the surge of Islamic violence worldwide.

[Spurminator]

What would you propose that would make a dent?

[violentkitten]

aggie you need to sign up and go fight for your country if you dont then you are a terrorist sympathizer

[Duff McCartney]

The problem is, they don't want other people to live free and according to their values, they want them all to convert to Islam.

Which is not unlike people being against gay marriages because it goes against their values, and not the values of the people getting married.

[smackdaddy11]

Which is not unlike people being against gay marriages because it goes against their values, and not the values of the people getting married.

What is the history of marriage? I'm not against civil unions, mergers, joinings, whatever. They can't get "married."

P.S. The people I know won't kill them because they are gay. Comparing this to Islam is irresponsible.