Has lack of "length" hurt the Spurs so far this season?

[SPARKY]

Discuss amongst yourselves. I'd say no.

[TheWriter]

I can't wait to see how this team plays with Linton.

[exstatic]

The only position where that would be an issue is the three, and Bowen seems adequate to the job most nights.

[timvp]

It's hurt the Spurs at times, but not really enough to effect the outcome of a game. Perhaps against Seattle when they didn't have anyone to guard Rashard Lewis ... but other than that, they've survived.

If Beno can stay healthy, they'd then be able to put Wilks on IR and activate The Third to solve that problem.

[whottt]

I haven't noticed the Spurs having any problems this season that weren't self inflicted at the mental level.

But if we lost to Seattle out of some reason other than our own error...if we lost because of match up problems with Rashard Lewis...we better solve that problem post haste because Rashard is a walk in the park skillwise with his height compared to Tmac...

[2pac]

How many teams in the NBA have two 7'ers starting?

SA
Minn (Garnett, Kandi/Johnson)


Close:
Dallas (Dirk/Dampier)
Boston (Raef/Blount)
Orlando (Cato/Howard)

The only true 7'er on Detroit's roster is Darko


What teams are we giving up tons of length to? Bowen isn't super tall at the 3, but he still defends better than any 3 in the league.

We dont have someone that is 6'10 at 3 like scrOdom or Lewis, but how many people do? Are we really worried about Seattle or the Fakers in the playoffs? How could either of those teams handle anything inside? Mihm or Vlade? Jerome James? Seattle's starting center is getting 3 and 2.

[whottt]

And don't forget that in a pinch we can still use Horry against the really long SF's...Dirk's game is a SF game and we used Horry on him tonight. I don't see the length as being a problem...and Devin seems to be able to guard taller players ala Malik as well.

[ChumpDumper]

It's a problem when the opposing team has two scoring threats -- one "regular" sized and one 6'10" -- at the swing spots. Bowen can only guard one. If it happens to be the shorter one, the taller one can have a field day shooting over Manu, Barry or Devin like Shard and Odom. Bruce usually does a pretty decent job on TMac and their other swingmen aren't so huge as to take advantage of the others.

It will be nice having Lint around. Bruce can't stop everybody.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't get me started on Dirk. Parker with his arms up can shut him down.

[whottt]

Well how many other long SF types do we have to deal with then?

Most of the guys that were long SF's 2 or 3 years ago are now PF's and Duncan draws them...

Garnett I believe is back at PF, Odom, Dirk...all former SF's of a few years ago that are now locked in at the PF spots and Duncan is probably going to have to guard them...I guess there's TMac and Rashard left and they both kind of play the 2 guard...

TMac, over-rated though he is, isn't going to be stopped by anyone we put on IMO...but luckily Yao and Van Gundy seem to be doing a better job of stopping him than anyone else...I don't see the problem here but if it's that big of a problem I don't see Linton Johnson being the solution so we better win the other matchups...shouldn't be too hard to do with Seattle or Houston.

[whottt]

Oh, there's Hedo too...shouldn't be too hard to stop a guy that doesn't like open shots and gets fucked up by passes two inches to his right.

[mattyc]

I can't wait to see how this team plays with Linton.
Ditto. Hope he can quickly adjust when he comes back from injury.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't see how Linton can possibly get minutes. I think the Spurs were planning on Beno not adjusting to the NBA so quickly, then Barry would have got some of his minutes at the point, and thus there would be more minutes would be available at the swingspots.

But right now, it's hard for Devin to even get minutes, I can't imagine one more swingman in the rotation.

[picnroll]

I'd see Litton as a specialty player coming in if guys like Lewis or Odom or LeBron or Artest (oops) were hurting the Spurs or the Spurs were getting hurt on the boards.

[ChumpDumper]

Garnett I believe is back at PFDepends. They can play him anywhere.

If Cassell and Spree are hot, and they bring a sane Griff off the bench to play alongside KG, then what? It's not cut and dry.

[GoSpurs21]

How many teams in the NBA have two 7'ers starting?

SAAAhhhhh....WRONG Tim is 6'11''

[2pac]

AAhhhhh....WRONG Tim is 6'11''

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3173

[TwoHandJam]

I'm more worried about the lack of length affecting our rebounding. Duncan's rebounding averages are slightly higher than last year's over these first 15 games. Since Rasho isn't a stellar rebounder we might have problems with aggressive rebounding teams. Malik is a capable rebounder but he can be outworked by taller forwards that are talented rebounders. Seattle crashed the boards hard against us and we struggled. The stats don't show it convincingly yet but after watching the games, I get the feeling that we've lost some rebounding muscle with Hedo's departure. The guards have been trying to pick up the slack but the jury is still out for me on our rebounding this year.

Other than that, I have to say that this team looks really sharp right now. If they only get stronger from here then the league had better watch out.

[whottt]

I get the feeling that we've lost some rebounding muscle with Hedo's departure

Have you looked at Hedo's board totals this year?

I think Parker is outrebounding him...he was.

If you want more boards give Malik more minutes...I don't see Malik getting out worked on the boards very often when he is getting his minutes.

[Manu20]

I think Linton will get minutes when he gets healthy. Especially if we play against long SF like Peja and Lewis. And if his defense is as good as they say pop would definently play him.

Now I'm not saying he would get consistent minutes it would depend on the matchups.

[whottt]

Depends. They can play him anywhere.

Same as most of the other guys I mentioned...but there's really only one body type that can defend them...regardless of where they play.

I know you guys don't like Horry right now but he can defend those types of guys about as well as anyone in the NBA in spot minutes..yeah he will get beat on occasion...but so will anyone else you put on them and Horry will fluster and trick them at some point...

[boutons]

Since when is rebounding superiority about "length" ?? It's more about desire/hustle, getting in position/blocking out, moving to the boards/the ball on EVERY shot, including your own, where you are not the get-back defense.

As Jim pointed out, little Stevie Francis is a superb rebounder, as was JKidd in his prime, and these are short, perimeter players. Boozer is a tweener getting 10+ RPG, and Malik and Manu are also a great rebounders for their size.

What's frustrating about Robert and Rasho is, for their good length, they are mediocre rebounders.

This "we need length at 3 or we're dead" BS reminds me of last summers "we can't shoot, we need shooters" so we got Barry, and Barry's shooting is not anywhere near his key contribution to the team's success. And the Spurs season-long shooting, 2's and 3's, was plenty respectable for the Spurs to win 59 games.

Also, "xxx has to bulk up to be effective". Well, tell that to highly effective but unbulky people like Rip Hamilton, AK, Manu, Tony, Beno, etc.

[whottt]

Some guys just aren't good rebounders...Rasho's is great at blocking out though...

But I swear you guys act like Horry used to be Bill Rusell or something...he's never been that great of a rebounder...and his regular season stats are always underwhelming...it's nothing new. Yeah his boards are down...so are his minutes.

The Spurs have one of the best rebounders in the NBA per 48 minutes, over the last 4 years, on their bench...His name is Malik Rose and if you give him more minutes he will clean glass like a mini Elton Brand.


Bottom line is that the Spurs are @ or near the top 10 in just about every rebounding category in the NBA, as we speak.

[TwoHandJam]

No, length doesn't have everything to do with rebounding but it sure helps. You don't always have to be in great position if you're tall so height does erase some lack of talent.

The team averages in rebounding for last year were 45.1 rpg and this year (so far) it's 42.6 rpg. Also, the rebounding differential between opponents was higher last year (4rpg vs 2.3rpg). It's too early to say we're a worse rebounding team but I tend to see rebounding lapses, especially when Tim sits.

Malik is a great rebounder for his size but against good rebounders who are taller, he generally loses the battle. I've seen guys grab and tip boards over his head more than once and you can see that he's fighting hard but is just frustrated. When you're Malik's size, you have to time your jump perfectly whereas a taller forward, even out of position, can tip a ball away from you.

Anyhow, I'm still not sure rebounding will be a problem but some of the games we've lost give me that inkling.

[boutons]

Robert's rebounding may have never been his strongest point (whatever that was), but as his overall game declines with age, rebounding is one "clever hustler" area he could work on (just slide into/fight for position) to earn his minutes and provide possessions, to go along with his pretty good shot blocking.

If a slow, short, heavy-set, non-jumper perimeter player like Kidd can grab RBs by playing smart ...

[ggoose25]

than a slow broke-ass ex spur killer can too? cmon, dont even compare Kidd with will smith

[ShoogarBear]

Boy, this topic question really crosses into the "more information than we need to know" category.

Oh, wait, you mean HEIGHT . . .

[whottt]

Robert's rebounding may have never been his strongest point (whatever that was), but as his overall game declines with age, rebounding is one "clever hustler" area he could work on (just slide into/fight for position) to earn his minutes and provide possessions, to go along with his pretty good shot blocking.

If a slow, short, heavy-set, non-jumper perimeter player like Kidd can grab RBs by playing smart ...


Um, Robert Horry doesn't hustle, how dare you expect that, you are asking the clutchest player in NBA history to be a hustle player? I think you need to reconsider just who you are asking that of. Better be careful or big shot Rob will have to throw a towel in your face. What Robert Horry does....Robert Horry stands there looking cool until you forget about him or think he sucks and then stabs you in the back and steals your ring.

If you want hustle put Malik in...and leave Horry alone. Just make sure he's in the game if it is big and it gets close...you only hurt yourself if you don't. Horry will hustle when he damn well feels like it and at no other time.

[timvp]

But I swear you guys act like Horry used to be Bill Rusell or something...he's never been that great of a rebounder

He might not have been Bill Russell, but there's a huge dropoff right now in his rebounding numbers. Only someone trying to validate Horry's worth wouldn't be able to admit that.

REBOUNDS PER 48 MINUTES
01-02 - 10.73
02-03 - 10.65
03-04 - 9.96
04-05 - 5.86

He has to rebound better if the Spurs plan to use him in fourth quarter. If he can get that number back up to around 10, then I wouldn't have a problem playing him. However, right now his game is in such an obvious decline, I can't justify playing him any critical minutes. On top of that, he hasn't been clutch for a long time now.

[whottt]

He might not have been Bill Russell, but there's a huge dropoff right now in his rebounding numbers. Only someone trying to validate Horry's worth wouldn't be able to admit that.

REBOUNDS PER 48 MINUTES
01-02 - 10.73
02-03 - 10.65
03-04 - 9.96
04-05 - 5.86

He has to rebound better if the Spurs plan to use him in fourth quarter. If he can get that number back up to around 10, then I wouldn't have a problem playing him. However, right now his game is in such an obvious decline, I can't justify playing him any critical minutes. On top of that, he hasn't been clutch for a long time now.

TimVP, every team that has traded Horry in his career..every detractor he has had since 1992, always cites statistics...it is a lost cause to analyze his statistics...his stats suck, especially his regular season stats, they have always sucked. I know that you know this. And I am not going to try and defend his stats..they are indefensible and I would say you could say that about every year of his career except 1 or 2.

You say to me you see no reason to give Horry extended minutes...I say ok, I agree, in fact I was saying it last year.

Why would you want to give him extended minutes anyway? He is 34 and his worth has never been judged by what he does in extended minutes except with a few exceptions.

But when you say to me you would not give him critical minutes...I say why in the world not? That's is the situation he has excelled in for his entire career...what is the point of having him if it isn't for those minutes?

You say he's not clutch...I say then how come his best game against the Lakers was the elimination game?

You cite the one missed playoff game winner of his career...I say...he was injured...he had an injured hand...it affected his performance throughout the playoffs...but all you need to know..that shot was the best he took in the series, it went in the basket deep an bounced out...and how in the hell did we leave him open to take that shot, how was he in perfect position..wide open and how did he get the ball...How? Because he's Horry and that's what he does if you give him the opportunity.

You judge him by LA last year...I say hello...he spent 7 years with that team, Phil Jackson is one of the smartest coaches in history especially at determining a players weakness, he's an ass but he's a smart mofo....do you really think he and the other multiple champ Lakers didn't notice the weaknesses in Horry's game over a 7 year period? They figured out how to stop Duncan and Robinson in 2001...no easy feat that season...even with Drob being old. They have figured out how to stop Duncan and let his teamates lose the game for him more often than not in Duncan's career.

Horry hasn't been given the opportunity to hit a last second shot or play with the Spurs...he hasn't. That's his true speciality...those make or break moments...that's when he's not a below average player.

So I say...what I said last year...give Malik the bulk of the minutes, Malik should be the workhorse, Malik needs those minutes to play through his clumsiness, that's Malik's game....it's the role that suits him best..but when things get tight..it's just stupid not to have Horry and his 5 rings and portfolio of exceptional playoff moments, on the court....


I've never seen a true clutch player lose clutchness...I don't think it happens..Injury does though...I think Horry is still as clutch as he has ever been...if he is healthy.

[Useruser666]

Boy, this topic question really crosses into the "more information than we need to know" category.

Oh, wait, you mean HEIGHT . . .

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who first thought that! :lol

I don't think the Spurs have a big problem or disadvantage.

[boutons]

"you are asking the clutchest player in NBA history to be a hustle player?"

I'm looking for a way that Robert could/should adapt his style of play to his physical decline, never an easy task. But fuck it, at least "hustling rebounds" is one thing he can still do. If he can't do that, what CAN he still do?

As timvp showed, Horry is way down in is RBs this year even vs his first Spur season.

And several of us have noted, as Pop sure has, Robert blowing his defensive assignments that gave up buckets.

The guy, most sadly, is bordering on useless, even counter-productive.

Horry's "clutch" laurels, which I don't disregard even if he hasn't been clutch since 2002 at latest, old history, useful for his scrapbook and grandkids. There are several of us who have nothing against Horry, but dammit, we can see he ain't pulling his weight this past month.

[whottt]

He's never pulled his weight when relied on to carry a team or function as a back bone....and when LA tried to do it they fucked him up.

The guy was a defacto starter for LA who asked to come off the bench...

I'm sure he's declined...but so had Steve Kerr...didn't mean Kerr wasn't the right guy to go to to end our scoring droughts in 02-03, as many like myself had said when he rusted away on the bench during the 2001 slaughter at the hands of the Lakers.

Just let Horry be Horry...he's not going to be a hustle player, he's not going to be some guy that pulls down 10 and 5...he's a championship acessory, he's a guy that can help a championship contender be a champion, he is not a guy that's going to lift a lottery team to the playoffs or a weak playoff team to a championship..if you don't have a team capable of contending for a championship Horry is the last guy you want on your team...But if you have a team that is a true title contender Horry is the first guy you want to sign for your team.

Jerry West realized this...Spurfans and Kingsfans have had this fact shoved down our throats.

......he always looks like shit when he plays...he always looks like a guy who can't beat you. He has always been this way. I swear. His nickname has been "the statue" for 10 years now.

If you do a search on Horry you will find 50 million quotes by people always saying the same thing....don't judge him by his stats. Just let Horry be Horry...if you guys don't want him getting minutes when it matters most fine...let Malik or Rasho get those minutes...I mean there' every reason to think they will perform better in those minutes than Horry, and no reason to think Horry will play better...right?

[violentkitten]

horry is no longer clutch and hes ancient

he is a nice role player to have simply for his experience and because he does a lot of good things but in the end hes just a reserve forward for 15 minutes a night

[Kori Ellis]

My problem with Horry is this. In the two games this season that Pop went to him in 4th quarters that matter, he was destroyed defensively. He was a matador. He wasn't even putting his hands up. He was missing all his switches. He was getting boxed out by everyone and their mother on the boards.

So I'm not understanding where he should get minutes. If you are saying playing him in critical situations in limited minutes, he hasn't shown anything to prove himself worthy of that. He has hurt the Spurs this season when used at critical times.

I'm all for him getting spot situational minutes. But if he is going to get blown by on D and not even look to get rebounds, I'd be scared to death to use him in 4th quarters that mean anything.

[whottt]

He's no more ancient than Barry or Bowen...

Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it. Horry has always shone brightest in his teams darkest moments...including game 6 VS LA last year. You always forget about him or think he sucks until those moments.

And he he still showed he's the type of player that helped Houston come back from all those elimination games...in our elimination game he showed up to play...the rest of the team had a broken heart from .04...Horry didn't.

I don't think you guys get it...the fluke last year was the Memphis series...that was an unusual series for him...it was probably the 3rd or 4th best series statistically he's ever had in his career...just like from an efficiency perspective...last post season was one of the best of his career. I think his FG% was the second best of his career.

[violentkitten]

horry shone his brightest when he hit nothing but backboard on a three point attempt with about a minute left in game five of the 2004 western conference semifinal playoff series versus the los angeles lakers a few months back

we know you will attempt to drown a thread in your verbosity simply to make it appear that you have an argument but you dont

[whottt]

Maybe you are right Kori...but I wouldn't have a second thought about having Horry take the game winning shot...in fact I think I'd prefer him to take it over any other player on the team except maybe Duncan...who revealed a knack for the big playoff shot himself last season.

[whottt]

horry shone his brightest when he hit nothing but backboard on a three point attempt with about a minute left in game five of the 2004 western conference semifinal playoff series versus the los angeles lakers a few months back

we know you will attempt to drown a thread in your verbosity simply to make it appear that you have an argument but you dont

Don't judge Horry by stats...especially regular season stats. Everyone in the world knows it.

And don't act like the Horry was the only one missing a shot in that LA game...ask why the guys that were left open...IE Bruce and Hedo..were missing them.


Besides...our team has the best record through 15 games that it has ever had, you guys are acting like we are in the middle of a 5 game losing streak and our season hangs in the balance...Horry has a history of giving his team what it needs when it most needs it and doing absolutely dick up until that point..you may not like that attitude...but he's got 5 rings........When the team needs him most he will show up to play....until then it's the regular season, we are 12-3 and off to the best start in team history, we haven't needed anything from him, including rebounds, and his stats reflect that...you spoiled motherfuckers.


One day you guys will learn that whottt should never be questioned on issues he takes the time to right 15 2000 word essays on.