F' Mike Brown

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Calling Lebron's performance tonight the greatest he has ever seen at this 'level' at this point in the season.

Wasn't he still on our bench when Duncan closed out the Nets with the near quadruple double? Ass...

[SequSpur]

Lebron was off the charts tonight.. don't be a hater.

[KEDA]

yeah, that was damned impressive, and I would probably put that above Tim's performance in 2003

[dbreiden83080]

Lebron was off the charts tonight.. don't be a hater.

It was but the Pistons D was also a disgrace tonight. MJ had nights like this but he was not a part of the layup line the Pistons handed to Lebron tonight. That D was a joke pure and simple.

[Trainwreck2100]

Lebron saved his ass from "Did you need to waste your last time out in the fourth" questions, like Horry saved Tim in game 5.

[SequSpur]

The Pistons had a big gaping hole in the middle.

[Trainwreck2100]

yeah, that was damned impressive, and I would probably put that above Tim's performance in 2003


Not really, here's the thing about performances like Lebron's, if you play like that for the full 48, you don't need overtime.

See:Tim's 03 performance.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

you're really reaching here aggie

[SequSpur]

RIP Hamilton was guarding him... give me a break...

[BeerIsGood!]

I doubt Brown was thinking about Duncan when he made the comments. This is like every Rock band ever created - the new album is the best work ever no matter how shitty it may be.

LBJ's performance was damn good tonight. Seeing as how he's never done this before and was shut down at the end of games 1 and 2 I'm confident he doesn't have another shooting night like this again this year.

[E20]

Dude, Lebron's game tonight easily passed Duncan's performance by FAR. I would like to explain with my reasons if anybody would like that, but I doubt it. :lol

[Agloco]

The Pistons had a big gaping hole in the middle.

It's called "Where in the World is Mr. Wallace?"

LeBron is at least thinking twice about driving with both Sheed and Big Ben in the lane.

[Mr. Body]

Leaving Jason Maxiell alone by himself to stop LeBron was a genius move.

[timvp]

Well first of all, I've never seen Duncan beat a team in the playoffs that single-handedly. Nobody else on the Cavs was doing anything. He basically played 1 on 5 and had 25 straight points to end a ECF Game 5 on the road.

Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance was better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform.

[Agloco]

Dude, Lebron's game tonight easily passed Duncan's performance by FAR. I would like to explain with my reasons if anybody would like that, but I doubt it. :lol

You've got to be kidding. I'm interested in your rationale. Unless part of your argument includes LeBron dominating both ends of the court for 48 minutes, I can't see it.

[E20]

Well first of all, I've never seen Duncan beat a team in the playoffs that single-handedly. Nobody else on the Cavs was doing anything. He basically played 1 on 5 and had 25 straight points to end a ECF Game 5 on the road.

Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance is better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform.
My thoughts exactly and I just want to add:

2003 Nets < 2007 Pistons

The Spurs were going to do the inevitable by beating the Nets, so Tim's performance wasn't neccassary at all to beat them and the Spurs had a better overall team in 2003 compared to the 2007 Cavs, sure it was great and memorable, but isn't as great as what Lebron did today.

Lebron basically played 2 and half straight quarters of basketball 5 on 1. Me, AHF,Timvp and Kori could have been on the court with Lebron and the Cavs still would have won.


You've got to be kidding. I'm interested in your rationale. Unless part of your argument includes LeBron dominating both ends of the court for 48 minutes, I can't see it.
Timvp said the bulk of what I was going to say and I just added some extra thoughts and my own opnions to it. Above.

[Trainwreck2100]

Well first of all, I've never seen Duncan beat a team in the playoffs that single-handedly. Nobody else on the Cavs was doing anything. He basically played 1 on 5 and had 25 straight points to end a ECF Game 5 on the road.

Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance was better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform.


Duncan has never had to, he's always had his team there. Like I said earlier Duncan gives his the full 48, not like Mr. "Ya'll guys keep it close till the fourth" Lebron. WTF kind of attitude is that. Hey King, here's a thought, if you play like you do in the fourth the entire game, maybe you don't need 2 OTs

[E20]

Duncan has never had to, he's always had his team there. Like I said earlier Duncan gives his the full 48, not like Mr. "Ya'll guys keep it close till the fourth" Lebron. WTF kind of attitude is that. Hey King, here's a thought, if you play like you do in the fourth the entire game, maybe you don't need 2 OTs
Maybe he wouldn't have to play like he did in the 4th if at least one of his teammates showed up to play. Lebron willed that team to a victory, his supporting cast is consisted of a rookie, Daniel Gibson, and one good game from Drew Gooden.

[BeerIsGood!]

My thoughts exactly and I just want to add:

2003 Nets < 2007 Pistons





That's absolutely ridiculous. This Pistons team wouldn't have been in the '03 Finals. You think they were going to stop J Kidd at his level in '03?

[Agloco]

Well first of all, I've never seen Duncan beat a team in the playoffs that single-handedly. Nobody else on the Cavs was doing anything. He basically played 1 on 5 and had 25 straight points to end a ECF Game 5 on the road.
Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance was better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform.


You contradict yourself here. If he's one on five that means hes dishing to open teammates.

That was the problem, he was going one on one nearly every time. Virtually no traps or doubles to get the ball into someone elses hands.

As for beating another team singlehandedly, it doesn't need to be done solely on the offensive end. Tim destroyed the Nets on both ends of the court from start to finish. You can't compare a one dimensional performance to a multidimensional performance like Timmys.

Its not even close.

[timvp]

Duncan has never had to, he's always had his team there. Like I said earlier Duncan gives his the full 48, not like Mr. "Ya'll guys keep it close till the fourth" Lebron. WTF kind of attitude is that. Hey King, here's a thought, if you play like you do in the fourth the entire game, maybe you don't need 2 OTs

Yeah maybe he can score 94 straight points next time and die of exhaustion in the third quarter.

Good plan.

[BeerIsGood!]

Maybe he wouldn't have to play like he did in the 4th if at least one of his teammates showed up to play. Lebron willed that team to a victory, his supporting cast is consisted of a rookie, Daniel Gibson, and one good game from Drew Gooden.

Shouldn't that tell you something about what will happen if they play a team who is actually showing up for the games?

[Solid D]

Props to Mike Brown for some heady play calling:

5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
Timeout
Brown: "LeBron do you want to rest and let Z take the next one?"
James: "A rest on offense? Are you kidding me?"
Brown: "Okay, Okay you win"
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout

[THE SIXTH MAN]

I wonder how different the series would have been if Larry Brown and Ben Wallace where still with the Pistons.

[Agloco]

My thoughts exactly and I just want to add:

2003 Nets < 2007 Pistons

The Spurs were going to do the inevitable by beating the Nets, so Tim's performance wasn't neccassary at all to beat them and the Spurs had a better overall team in 2003 compared to the 2007 Cavs, sure it was great and memorable, but isn't as great as what Lebron did today.

Lebron basically played 2 and half straight quarters of basketball 5 on 1. Me, AHF,Timvp and Kori could have been on the court with Lebron and the Cavs still would have won.
Timvp said the bulk of what I was going to say and I just added some extra thoughts and my own opnions to it. Above.



How easily you discount the threat posed by 3 ball shooters. you do realize that the Pistons play the same kind of defense on the perimeter that we do right?

They don't leave the shooters. Period. So they spread the floor and took advantage of Bron's hot hand. Kudos.

A great performance it was. But it doesn't hold a candle to Timmys performance, no matter who the opponent is.

[Trainwreck2100]

Yeah maybe he can score 94 straight points next time and die of exhaustion in the third quarter.

Good plan.


WTF kind of attitude is "Hey guys keep it close so I can take over" what if it's out of reach because the other superstar decided to put his team on his back the full 4 quarters and he could trust his team in a closeout situation. Jordan had 30+ before he passed it to Kerr, and 30+ before he gave it to Paxton. He didnt wait for the fourth Q to show up.

[BeerIsGood!]

Props to Mike Brown for some heady play calling:

5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
Timeout
Brown: "LeBron do you want to rest and let Z take the next one?"
James: "A rest on offense? Are you kidding me?"
Brown: "Okay, Okay you win"
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout

:lol I saw a couple of P&R with Varejao, but Lebron mostly pulled back and waited for the clearout when that happened. How in the hell the Pistons let him get to the rim every time is beyond me. I guess that's what happens when you don't have a shot blocker in the game.

[timvp]

You contradict yourself here. If he's one on five that means hes dishing to open teammates.

One on five meaning he was the only player playing on his team. Who was the second best Cav from the fourth quarter to the end of the game?

Eric Snow? :lol


That was the problem, he was going one on one nearly every time. Virtually no traps or doubles to get the ball into someone elses hands.

Sure some of it was Flip's fault but he was hitting fade away threes against double teams. What can you do there?


As for beating another team singlehandedly, it doesn't need to be done solely on the offensive end. Tim destroyed the Nets on both ends of the court from start to finish. You can't compare a one dimensional performance to a multidimensional performance like Timmys.

Its not even close.

My point is Duncan has always had at least some help. In that game you're talking about, David Robinson had 17 rebounds. Stephen Jackson nailed some of the biggest threes in Spurs history. Speedy Claxton hit the biggest shots of his life.

Duncan was of course great in that game, but he had help. No Spur has ever won a Conference Finals or Finals game with as little help as LeBron had.

[E20]

That's absolutely ridiculous. This Pistons team wouldn't have been in the '03 Finals. You think they were going to stop J Kidd at his level in '03?
Outside of Jason Kidd, who has major weaknesses in his game even at that point, the Pistons match up better against the 2003 Nets. The 2003 Nets main scorers were Jefferson(Overrated scorere) and Kenyon Martin (Undersized PF). Prince would have shutdown Jefferson and Sheed would have done the same to Martin. Billups would have torched Kidd on the offensive end, Kidd can't play D. All you have to do is give Kidd room enough to attempt a jumpshot, Kidd is a horrible shooter and Chauncey is an excellent defender. The Nets would have a hard time in stopping Rip Hamiliton and McDyess would have given them problems as well. C-Webb would do more good than bad.

[BeerIsGood!]

Outside of Jason Kidd, who has major weaknesses in his game even at that point, the Pistons match up better against the 2003 Nets. The 2003 Nets main scorers were Jefferson(Overrated scorere) and Kenyon Martin (Undersized PF). Prince would have shutdown Jefferson and Sheed would have done the same to Martin. Billups would have torched Kidd on the offensive end, Kidd can't play D. All you have to do is give Kidd room enough to attempt a jumpshot, Kidd is a horrible shooter and Chauncey is an excellent defender. The Nets would have a hard time in stopping Rip Hamiliton and McDyess would have given them problems as well. C-Webb would do more good than bad.

This Piston's team is playing unispired basketball and isn't taking advantage of any of the matchup advantages they have had. You're talking like these guys are playing like the '05 Pistons. Playing like this, Kidd would have gotten penetration at will and Kenyon Martin would have been very effective on the inside. Sheed would have been bricking fade away after fade away as would RIP. Chauncy and Prince would be turning the ball over in crunch time. That's the difference, if this Pistons' team were playing up to their potential, like they should be, the series would be over by now.

[E20]

How easily you discount the threat posed by 3 ball shooters. you do realize that the Pistons play the same kind of defense on the perimeter that we do right?

They don't leave the shooters. Period. So they spread the floor and took advantage of Bron's hot hand. Kudos.

A great performance it was. But it doesn't hold a candle to Timmys performance, no matter who the opponent is.
When Bron was going off: Hughes, Illguaskas, Gooden, Gibson were all fouled out. That is equivlanet to TD playing w/o Manu, Tony, Bruce, Horry/Finley/Barry/insert whoever.

There was no threat of the three ball. The lineup for most of the OT's was:
Lebron
Vareajo(sp)
Snow
Blank
Blank

I don't even remember the last two. Eric Snow/whoever were no threat at all. All 5 Pistons players were in the paint looking at Lebron while he was guarded by either Billups or Rip and everytime a screen would come his way he would automatically get double teamed and yet he still managed to hit every shot imaginable in the game.

[Mr. Peabody]

We have such an inferiority complex here. If the game analysts, newspapers, websites, other teams, coaches, etc. don't constantly mention how great our team/players are, people here get offended. Give Mike Brown a break. His team just won a double overtime game, with his star player having one of the greatest playoff performances ever. I don't think he's thinking about Duncan or his time with the Spurs right now.

[E20]

This Piston's team is playing unispired basketball and isn't taking advantage of any of the matchup advantages they have had. You're talking like these guys are playing like the '05 Pistons. Playing like this, Kidd would have gotten penetration at will and Kenyon Martin would have been very effective on the inside. Sheed would have been bricking fade away after fade away as would RIP. Chauncy and Prince would be turning the ball over in crunch time. That's the difference, if this Pistons' team were playing up to their potential, like they should be, the series would be over by now.
Matchups and inspiration are two different catogeries to judge teams. I agree that Kidd's Nets were more motivated and inspired, but still since we're talking strictly matchups and you can't take emotions/feelings. The 07 Pistons look better on paper and I guarantee 90 percent of people would take 07 Pistons over 03 Nets, if they just saw the roster for those teams without the year in which those rosters were intact.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

We have such an inferiority complex here. If the game analysts, newspapers, websites, other teams, coaches, etc. don't constantly mention how great our team/players are, people here get offended. Give Mike Brown a break. His team just won a double overtime game, with his star player having one of the greatest playoff performances ever. I don't think he's thinking about Duncan or his time with the Spurs right now.
Amen.

[Solid D]

We have such an inferiority complex here. If the game analysts, newspapers, websites, other teams, coaches, etc. don't constantly mention how great our team/players are, people here get offended. Give Mike Brown a break. His team just won a double overtime game, with his star player having one of the greatest playoff performances ever. I don't think he's thinking about Duncan or his time with the Spurs right now.

I just knew someone would call people out for this. I just knew it. Everybody picks on us for no reason. It's just not fair. We should get more respect for our comments in this forum.

[Mr. Peabody]

I just knew someone would call people out for this. I just knew it. Everybody picks on us for no reason. It's just not fair. We should get more respect for our comments in this forum.

:lol Nice one. :lol

[BeerIsGood!]

When Bron was going off: Hughes, Illguaskas, Gooden, Gibson were all fouled out. That is equivlanet to TD playing w/o Manu, Tony, Bruce, Horry/Finley/Barry/insert whoever.

There was no threat of the three ball. The lineup for most of the OT's was:
Lebron
Vareajo(sp)
Snow
Blank
Blank

I don't even remember the last two. Eric Snow/whoever were no threat at all. All 5 Pistons players were in the paint looking at Lebron while he was guarded by either Billups or Rip and everytime a screen would come his way he would automatically get double teamed and yet he still managed to hit every shot imaginable in the game.

False, they rarely doubled, and when they did it was successful for a few possessions. On one fade away 3 Webber doubled weak off the P&R and Billups went under the screen and dove in the lane expecting penetration. Webber didn't show hard and gave James the wide open look (didn't even contest it). After the doubles the Cavs started to abandon the P&R and ran clearouts in which Lebron drove and Maxiell did not even rotate over to stop penetration. No weak side rotation to stop the ball. Just gave up a dunk. Horrible defense. A good defensive team with a shot blocker inside doesn't give up uncontested dunks and let Lebron get in rhythm and gain confidence in his shot.

[aaronstampler]

I can't believe you're falling for the ESPN hype machine, LJ.

Yeah, LeBron had a great offensive game, but the greatest performance you've ever seen? Give me a break.

First off, the Cavs, AS A TEAM play excellent defense, and guys like Sideshow Bob and Gibson and even Ilgauskas repeatedly shutting down the Pistons offense helped LeBron keep hte Cave in the game. There are two sides of the court.

Secondly, Flip Saunders contributed majorly to LeBron's night. I don't understand why they barely ever doubled him. EVERY TIME THEY TRAPPED HIM CLEVELAND DIDN'T SCORE. So why did they only resort to this tactic 10% of the time? They mainly played him one on one, first with Prince, then with Rip, then finally with Billups. Manu's less talented than LeBron and he was burning Prince regularly in the finals two years ago. Prince is terribly overrated. He's a decent help defender, but one on one he can be had. He's definitely a notch below Bowen and Artest as a defender. LeBron was beating him by ten feet off the dribble and no help, whether it was Maxiell, Rasheed or Webber was ever arriving in time.

Thirdly, one of the major reasons this game went to 2 OTs was that A) LeBron missed a bunch of free throws in the 4th quarter and B) He was holding on to the ball way too long on the occasions he was trapped. By the time he passed it to Pavlovic or whoever, there was like 3 seconds left on the shot clock. His shooting was great, but his passing was very undecisive. He basically didn't give anyone a chance to score the last 12 minutes.


The reason these games are so close is mainly because both teams have awful, awful coaches who have no idea what the hell they're doing. If Pop, Larry Brown, Phil Jax or Riley coached Cleveland, the series would be 4-0 Cavs. If they coached Detroit it'd be 4-0 Pistons. No matter how well he shoots, there's no way LeBron is gonna get 48 on us, not unless the zebras give him 25 FT attempts, because Pop won't be dumb enough to let one guy guard him with nobody in the lane.

[Agloco]

One on five meaning he was the only player playing on his team. Who was the second best Cav from the fourth quarter to the end of the game?

Eric Snow? :lol



Sure some of it was Flip's fault but he was hitting fade away threes against double teams. What can you do there?



My point is Duncan has always had at least some help. In that game you're talking about, David Robinson had 17 rebounds. Stephen Jackson nailed some of the biggest threes in Spurs history. Speedy Claxton hit the biggest shots of his life.

Duncan was of course great in that game, but he had help. No Spur has ever won a Conference Finals or Finals game with as little help as LeBron had.


Good points Timvp. If you talk about it in terms of supporting casts, yeah LeBrons is more impressive. I think Timmys performance was so great because he did it over the entire game and on both ends of the court.

It's because of the completeness of that effort that I have a hard time giving the nod to LeBron. I do however have to rank it as one of the top 10 playoff performances of all time.

[timvp]

What's classic about this thread is Manu scored 24 consecutive points against the Atlanta freakin' Hawks in the second quarter of a game in February and Spurs fans had to be restrained from having a river parade to hail what was said to be the greatest moment in the history of human civilization.

LeBron goes for 25 straight point against the Detroit Pistons in the fourth quarter and two overtime periods in Game 5 the Eastern Conference Finals on the road and Spurs fans aren't impressed.

Classic :rollin

[E20]

False, they rarely doubled, and when they did it was successful for a few possessions. On one fade away 3 Webber doubled weak off the P&R and Billups went under the screen and dove in the lane expecting penetration. Webber didn't show hard and gave James the wide open look (didn't even contest it). After the doubles the Cavs started to abandon the P&R and ran clearouts in which Lebron drove and Maxiell did not even rotate over to stop penetration. No weak side rotation to stop the ball. Just gave up a dunk. Horrible defense. A good defensive team with a shot blocker inside doesn't give up uncontested dunks and let Lebron get in rhythm and gain confidence in his shot.
True, they didn't double him persay(sp :lol), but everytime a screen came at him for a P'n'R, almost everytime the help defender showed. Lebron had to go on the opposite side of the screen everytime. It's a matter of opnions and I just think Lebron won the deciding game of this series by himself and made unbeavable shots covered by one man, two, or three. And you can't deny the fact that he did in fact connect with some of his attempts over two/three defenders.

[BeerIsGood!]

Matchups and inspiration are two different catogeries to judge teams. I agree that Kidd's Nets were more motivated and inspired, but still since we're talking strictly matchups and you can't take emotions/feelings. The 07 Pistons look better on paper and I guarantee 90 percent of people would take 07 Pistons over 03 Nets, if they just saw the roster for those teams without the year in which those rosters were intact.

I would take them too in the matchup because I would assume they would play with fire and gusto. That's the difference in this series and why I would not take this team over the '03 Nets right now, because they aren't playing the smart ball that got them the recognition as a great team. They are making rookie mistakes that they didn't make in the past. Their defense has been suspect down the stretch in games.


Look at it this way, the Spurs are a better matchup and team than the Suns, but if the Spurs played a series with the energy Detroit is playing with... the Suns would be waiting on the winner in the Finals.

[ATXSPUR]

Who cares...though brown's statement is not accurate...this thread makes us Spurs look like babies.

His team is one freaking win away from the finals...I expect him to be excited.

Spurs will win the finals...that is all I care about.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

What's classic about this thread is Manu scored 24 consecutive points against the Atlanta freakin' Hawks in the second quarter of a game in February and Spurs fans had to be restrained from having a river parade to hail what was said to be the greatest moment in the history of human civilization.

LeBron goes for 25 straight point against the Detroit Pistons in the fourth quarter and two overtime periods in Game 5 the Eastern Conference Finals on the road and Spurs fans aren't impressed.

Classic :rollin
I don't know about being "unimpressed" heh, I think they're just threatened that another great player's performance takes anything away from Tim D's Finals Performance or something like that.

Well some of the fans in this thread.

[E20]

I would take them too in the matchup because I would assume they would play with fire and gusto. That's the difference in this series and why I would not take this team over the '03 Nets right now, because they aren't playing the smart ball that got them the recognition as a great team. They are making rookie mistakes that they didn't make in the past. Their defense has been suspect down the stretch in games.


Look at it this way, the Spurs are a better matchup and team than the Suns, but if the Spurs played a series with the energy Detroit is playing with... the Suns would be waiting on the winner in the Finals.
You would take that exact same 03 Nets roster over the 07 Pistons roster not knowing the year in which those rosters played? Let's just say those series never happend. If you do pick the 03 Nets, then you fall in that 10% :lol

[aaronstampler]

The biggest mismatch of the finals will be the head coaches.

[BeerIsGood!]

True, they didn't double him persay(sp :lol), but everytime a screen came at him for a P'n'R, almost everytime the help defender showed. Lebron had to go on the opposite side of the screen everytime. It's a matter of opnions and I just think Lebron won the deciding game of this series by himself and made unbeavable shots covered by one man, two, or three. And you can't deny the fact that he did in fact connect with some of his attempts over two/three defenders.

Lebron won the game by himself, there's no doubting that. What I know is that the Pistons made rookie mistakes on a lot of those possessions, and letting a player as good as Lebron get dunk after dunk on you in the 4th is just asking for him to get in rhythm and start making those fade aways. If the Pistons don't give him the dunks he may have not had the rhythm in his shot to hit those fade aways.

[E20]

Lebron won the game by himself, there's no doubting that. What I know is that the Pistons made rookie mistakes on a lot of those possessions, and letting a player as good as Lebron get dunk after dunk on you in the 4th is just asking for him to get in rhythm and start making those fade aways. If the Pistons don't give him the dunks he may have not had the rhythm in his shot to hit those fade aways.
I'm really disappointed by those 'rookie' mistakes the Pistons made. That was truely out of character. Bad passes and horrible offensive decisions made by vets who have been to the Finals and won it all.

[BeerIsGood!]

You would take that exact same 03 Nets roster over the 07 Pistons roster not knowing the year in which those rosters played? Let's just say those series never happend. If you do pick the 03 Nets, then you fall in that 10% :lol

What I'm saying is this... I would take the '03 Nets (with the way they played in the playoffs that year) against the '07 Pistons (with the way they have played this series). If the '07 Pistons play this series the way they are capable of as a team this would already be a Spurs - Pistons finals. The Pistons are not playing championship ball even though they have championship caliber players.

[timvp]

I can't believe you're falling for the ESPN hype machine, LJ.

The game was on TNT.


Yeah, LeBron had a great offensive game, but the greatest performance you've ever seen? Give me a break.

Link to where I called it the greatest performance I've ever seen?


First off, the Cavs, AS A TEAM play excellent defense, and guys like Sideshow Bob and Gibson and even Ilgauskas repeatedly shutting down the Pistons offense helped LeBron keep hte Cave in the game. There are two sides of the court.

Did you just claim that Gibson was a defensive player? :lol

Did you miss when he was pulled from the game whenever the Cavs needed a stop? Or did you miss when the Pistons offense consisted of one play -- pass it to whoever Gibson is guarding and get an easy basket.


Secondly, Flip Saunders contributed majorly to LeBron's night. I don't understand why they barely ever doubled him. EVERY TIME THEY TRAPPED HIM CLEVELAND DIDN'T SCORE. So why did they only resort to this tactic 10% of the time? They mainly played him one on one, first with Prince, then with Rip, then finally with Billups. Manu's less talented than LeBron and he was burning Prince regularly in the finals two years ago. Prince is terribly overrated. He's a decent help defender, but one on one he can be had. He's definitely a notch below Bowen and Artest as a defender. LeBron was beating him by ten feet off the dribble and no help, whether it was Maxiell, Rasheed or Webber was ever arriving in time.

Flip did have a part in it. But you must have been watching a different game because the game I watched didn't have Prince guarding LeBron. The Pistons used Billups and Hamilton on LeBron during his run more than they used Prince.


Thirdly, one of the major reasons this game went to 2 OTs was that A) LeBron missed a bunch of free throws in the 4th quarter and B) He was holding on to the ball way too long on the occasions he was trapped. By the time he passed it to Pavlovic or whoever, there was like 3 seconds left on the shot clock. His shooting was great, but his passing was very undecisive. He basically didn't give anyone a chance to score the last 12 minutes.

He got his teammates some good shots. Gooden missed a wide open five footer. Pavlovic missed about 8 shots down the stretch. Gibson had a wide open three.

But when you are shooting at a 70%+ clip like LeBron was doing and his teammates hadn't scored for literally an hour, LeBron should have kept attacking.

And be serious. If Manu pulled off the same explosion you wouldn't even be able to post because your chode would have exploded into 20,000 pieces and you'd have to be rushed to ER.

Shi--ii-i---i--ii---ii--iit.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know about being "unimpressed" heh, I think they're just threatened that another great player's performance takes anything away from Tim D's Finals Performance or something like that.

Well some of the fans in this thread.

Which is why this thread is crazy.

TD has absolutely nothing to do with Mike Brown's comments on his own players' incredible performance tonight.

I think I'll change my line of "Spurs fans are spoiled" to "Spurs fans are sensitive" :)

[aaronstampler]

Of the last 29 points, LeBron made some incredible shots to earn about 10 of them. The other 19 came on right side drives by a right handed player, playing one-on-one, with the help defense always arriving late. Sorry, but that's more bad coaching and bad execution by Detroit than anything else.

Detroit should have either forced him to pass or put him on the line for most of those points. Giving up repeated dunks and lay-ups is pretty inexcusable in the playoffs, whether it's against LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, whoever.

[ATXSPUR]

I'm really disappointed by those 'rookie' mistakes the Pistons made. That was truely out of character. Bad passes and horrible offensive decisions made by vets who have been to the Finals and won it all.

The pistons have got lazy and arrogant...that is the problem...you can stick a fork in them if they dont get on the ball.

[BeerIsGood!]

I'm really disappointed by those 'rookie' mistakes the Pistons made. That was truely out of character. Bad passes and horrible offensive decisions made by vets who have been to the Finals and won it all.

That's what I'm talking about. The way the Pistons played in '04 and '05 - those mistakes never happen and Lebron doesn't get 3 or 4 uncontested dunks in the 4th and overtime. I don't know what happened to the Pistons, but they have played horribly this series, especially from a mental and hustle stand point. The Cavs just want this series more right now.

[dbreiden83080]

Well first of all, I've never seen Duncan beat a team in the playoffs that single-handedly. Nobody else on the Cavs was doing anything. He basically played 1 on 5 and had 25 straight points to end a ECF Game 5 on the road.

Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance was better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform.

Of course it was but the Pistons never committed themselves to taking the ball out of his hands down the stretch not once.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I can't believe you're falling for the ESPN hype machine, LJ.

Yeah, LeBron had a great offensive game, but the greatest performance you've ever seen? Give me a break.

First off, the Cavs, AS A TEAM play excellent defense, and guys like Sideshow Bob and Gibson and even Ilgauskas repeatedly shutting down the Pistons offense helped LeBron keep hte Cave in the game. There are two sides of the court.

Secondly, Flip Saunders contributed majorly to LeBron's night. I don't understand why they barely ever doubled him. EVERY TIME THEY TRAPPED HIM CLEVELAND DIDN'T SCORE. So why did they only resort to this tactic 10% of the time? They mainly played him one on one, first with Prince, then with Rip, then finally with Billups. Manu's less talented than LeBron and he was burning Prince regularly in the finals two years ago. Prince is terribly overrated. He's a decent help defender, but one on one he can be had. He's definitely a notch below Bowen and Artest as a defender. LeBron was beating him by ten feet off the dribble and no help, whether it was Maxiell, Rasheed or Webber was ever arriving in time.

Thirdly, one of the major reasons this game went to 2 OTs was that A) LeBron missed a bunch of free throws in the 4th quarter and B) He was holding on to the ball way too long on the occasions he was trapped. By the time he passed it to Pavlovic or whoever, there was like 3 seconds left on the shot clock. His shooting was great, but his passing was very undecisive. He basically didn't give anyone a chance to score the last 12 minutes.


The reason these games are so close is mainly because both teams have awful, awful coaches who have no idea what the hell they're doing. If Pop, Larry Brown, Phil Jax or Riley coached Cleveland, the series would be 4-0 Cavs. If they coached Detroit it'd be 4-0 Pistons. No matter how well he shoots, there's no way LeBron is gonna get 48 on us, not unless the zebras give him 25 FT attempts, because Pop won't be dumb enough to let one guy guard him with nobody in the lane.
Though you do shed some perspective on WHY James scored the way he did.
You're making claims as if his performance is already being overrated. Scoring 29 points for the whole team is impressive in itself, no matter how you cut it. Plus, Lebron did some good D.
Also, Lebron did what he was supposed to do given the opportunity, give any other player the opportunity he had, as you said, with the scenario mentioned of playing a inferior coached Team defense, AND pressure scenario of a close game 5 in a conference final, and despite all the disparity, I DOUBT any player
would have done what Lebron did, given the chance. He delivered, and I think you're trying to downplay that too much. Especially the part about him playing on one side. He played good D along with his team. What more could you ask for. Lebron was the best performer on the court, and everyone else on the both squads were levels upon levels below him. You can't blame him for that.

You're twisting the offensive, defensive of mistakes to justify WHY Lebron performed the way he did, too much to your liking. A great offensive game is AN understatement. Lots of players have great offensive games in the post-season. Tim's had them a bunch of times. Wade, Kobe, etc. Even Manu's had some. By the end of the second overtime it was already on another level of just a "great offensive game". It was unique!

[ATXSPUR]

Gino is capable of the exact same kind of game with the way the Pistons played D. Maybe even have more points because of a better ft %.

Taking nothing away from bron. Mike Brown has every right to make that comment. I can see both sides of the story. In the end though who cares which performance Brown likes more?

[BeerIsGood!]

Though you do shed some perspective on WHY James scored the way he did.
You're making claims as if his performance is already being overrated. Scoring 29 points for the whole team is impressive in itself, no matter how you cut it. Plus, Lebron did some good D.
Also, Lebron did what he was supposed to do given the opportunity, give any other player the opportunity he had, as you said, with the scenario mentioned of playing a inferior coached Team defense, AND pressure scenario of a close game 5 in a conference final, and despite all the disparity, I DOUBT any player
would have done what Lebron did, given the chance. He delivered, and I think you're trying to downplay that too much. Especially the part about him playing on one side. He played good D along with his team. What more could you ask for. Lebron was the best performer on the court, and everyone else on the both squads were levels upon levels below him. You can't blame him for that.

You're twisting the offensive, defensive of mistakes to justify WHY Lebron performed the way he did, too much to your liking. A great offensive game is AN understatement. Lots of players have great offensive games in the post-season. Tim's had them a bunch of times. Wade, Kobe, etc. Even Manu's had some. By the end of the second overtime it was already on another level of just a "great offensive game". It was unique!

No doubt Lebron did exactly what he should have done. The guy couldn't have played a greater game and took advantage of every mistake, every slow or non-existent rotation, and nearly every opportunity he had. That's what you're supposed to do when a team is making mistake after mistake, and Lebron did it as well as anyone.

[aaronstampler]

The game was on TNT.

I mean, this ESPN hype era where anything that just happened is the greatest/worst thing of all time. I'm aware the game was on TNT.




Link to where I called it the greatest performance I've ever seen?

You said it was more impressive than anything you've seen anyone in a Spurs uniform do.




Did you just claim that Gibson was a defensive player? :lol

Did you miss when he was pulled from the game whenever the Cavs needed a stop? Or did you miss when the Pistons offense consisted of one play -- pass it to whoever Gibson is guarding and get an easy basket.

Here you're just being an ass and ignoring my main point which was that the Cavs defense was excellent and got a lot of stops.




Flip did have a part in it. But you must have been watching a different game because the game I watched didn't have Prince guarding LeBron. The Pistons used Billups and Hamilton on LeBron during his run more than they used Prince.

He blew by Prince those two straight times late in the 4th quarter where he got dunks.




He got his teammates some good shots. Gooden missed a wide open five footer. Pavlovic missed about 8 shots down the stretch. Gibson had a wide open three.

But when you are shooting at a 70%+ clip like LeBron was doing and his teammates hadn't scored for literally an hour, LeBron should have kept attacking.

The pass to Gooden was good, but the vast majority of his passes were off the mark and extremely late on the shot clock. When he was being trapped he should have gotten rid of the ball immediately instead of seeing the double in front of him and waiting, waiting, waiting, and then passing with less than 5 seconds left.


And be serious. If Manu pulled off the same explosion you wouldn't even be able to post because your chode would have exploded into 20,000 pieces and you'd have to be rushed to ER.

Shi--ii-i---i--ii---ii--iit.

My chode would explode if Detroit played this kind of defense on Manu where he's never double teamed and nobody is ever in the lane. Seriously I think Kobe or Wade would've gone off for 70 the way the Pistons were playing. Larry Brown would have puked at the TV if he watched this defense. They've suffered greatly with Flip and the fact that they've advanced this far underscores how terrible the Eastern Conference is.

[aaronstampler]

Though you do shed some perspective on WHY James scored the way he did.
You're making claims as if his performance is already being overrated. Scoring 29 points for the whole team is impressive in itself, no matter how you cut it. Plus, Lebron did some good D.
Also, Lebron did what he was supposed to do given the opportunity, give any other player the opportunity he had, as you said, with the scenario mentioned of playing a inferior coached Team defense, AND pressure scenario of a close game 5 in a conference final, and despite all the disparity, I DOUBT any player
would have done what Lebron did, given the chance. He delivered, and I think you're trying to downplay that too much. Especially the part about him playing on one side. He played good D along with his team. What more could you ask for. Lebron was the best performer on the court, and everyone else on the both squads were levels upon levels below him. You can't blame him for that.

You're twisting the offensive, defensive of mistakes to justify WHY Lebron performed the way he did, too much to your liking. A great offensive game is AN understatement. Lots of players have great offensive games in the post-season. Tim's had them a bunch of times. Wade, Kobe, etc. Even Manu's had some. By the end of the second overtime it was already on another level of just a "great offensive game". It was unique!


If I implied that LeBron wasn't playing good defense, I apologize. That wasn't my intention at all. He played well on defense just like the rest of his teammates did. What I was trying to say is that just because his teammates didn't score the last 12 minutes, they shouldn't be completely mocked or disparaged. They did contribute by playing solid defense.

Secondly, I agree completely with LeBron's decision to attack the rim when he only had one guy guarding him. Of course that was the right move. I have no problem with that. My only issue with his offensive game was that I think on the rare occasion he was trapped/doubled he was holding on to the ball too long even when it was obvious he wasn't going to be the one taking the shot. He wasn't getting rid of it until there were very few seconds left in the shot clock. It's like he doesn't want to pass unless he gets the assist opportunity. A lot of times the best pass isn't the assist pass but the one that leads to the assist pass, and he wasn't giving the offense the time or opportunity to make that second pass.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

5 lay-ups or dunks, 5 long Js(2 3s) and 5 FTs. The kid was scoring from everywhere on the court.

The Pistons should've doubled him more, but he was lights out. Eerily reminiscent of some of feats in the 80s or MJ in the 90s.

Don't hate, appreciate. Sheed still got fouled :spin

[timvp]

I mean, this ESPN hype era where anything that just happened is the greatest/worst thing of all time. I'm aware the game was on TNT.

Yeah it was a joke.


You said it was more impressive than anything you've seen anyone in a Spurs uniform do.

Point to a 1 on 5 performance as impressive as what LeBron just did in a Spurs uniform on this stage.

Thanks.


Here you're just being an ass and ignoring my main point which was that the Cavs defense was excellent and got a lot of stops.

Yeah the Cavs played some nice defense. However, James had a part in the defense as well. He forced Prince into a big turnover, stole a pass by Prince and got some big rebounds.

If LeBron were on the Spurs, he'd easily be their second best perimeter defender.


He blew by Prince those two straight times late in the 4th quarter where he got dunks.

And on most of those other 21 points, he was guarded by others.


The pass to Gooden was good, but the vast majority of his passes were off the mark and extremely late on the shot clock. When he was being trapped he should have gotten rid of the ball immediately instead of seeing the double in front of him and waiting, waiting, waiting, and then passing with less than 5 seconds left.

LeBron's best skill is his passing. Outside of Magic, I've never seen a player his size have the natural passing ability that he has.

And my point remains, if he was as on fire as he was and the Pistons defense was as bad as you claim, why should he pass?


My chode would explode if Detroit played this kind of defense on Manu where he's never double teamed and nobody is ever in the lane. Seriously I think Kobe or Wade would've gone off for 70 the way the Pistons were playing. Larry Brown would have puked at the TV if he watched this defense. They've suffered greatly with Flip and the fact that they've advanced this far underscores how terrible the Eastern Conference is.

So LeBron deserves none of the credit? His fade away threes over double teams were due to bad defense?

LeBron was fantastic. If you don't want to admit that, not much I can do.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

If I implied that LeBron wasn't playing good defense, I apologize. That wasn't my intention at all. He played well on defense just like the rest of his teammates did. What I was trying to say is that just because his teammates didn't score the last 12 minutes, they shouldn't be completely mocked or disparaged. They did contribute by playing solid defense.
Alright, and yeah I think Gooden and Lebron were able to pull off stops and steals thanks to their team bodying-up .




Secondly, I agree completely with LeBron's decision to attack the rim when he only had one guy guarding him. Of course that was the right move. I have no problem with that. My only issue with his offensive game was that I think on the rare occasion he was trapped/doubled he was holding on to the ball too long even when it was obvious he wasn't going to be the one taking the shot. He wasn't getting rid of it until there were very few seconds left in the shot clock. It's like he doesn't want to pass unless he gets the assist opportunity. A lot of times the best pass isn't the assist pass but the one that leads to the assist pass, and he wasn't giving the offense the time or opportunity to make that second pass.
I think Lebron's been less selfish in his games, but at times he is a little stat minded, but I still think he's a pretty good team-oriented player. As for holding the ball too long, I think after games 1 and 2, he realized he had to be a little more selfish. What I saw was fear in his teammates eyes. Sasha rushed a pass back out when he was on the 3 point line on one of the plays in the fourth or first overtime. I can't blame Lebron for assuming the role of 4th quarter man for the remaining possessions. At that point, it's nitpicking, but not really.
But I can agree that Lebron's game is still a bit rough, meaning he'll only get better at decision making and the like even more so. Which is kind of scary if you think about it.

[Trainwreck2100]

Point to a 1 on 5 performance as impressive as what LeBron just did in a Spurs uniform on this stage.

Thanks.






Point to a CF team we played that played as bad defensively as the Pistons did today, they gave him three dunks, two to end the fouth. Who have the Spurs played on this level that would do that?

[timvp]

Point to a CF team we played that played as bad defensively as the Pistons did today, they gave him three dunks, two to end the fouth. Who have the Spurs played on this level that would do that?

The '05 Suns were a horrible defensive team. The '03 Mavs were a horrible defensive team.

The Pistons defense > either of those team's defenses.

[Trainwreck2100]

The '05 Suns were a horrible defensive team. The '03 Mavs were a horrible defensive team.

The Pistons defense > either of those team's defenses.


And yet how many game deciding dunks did those teams give up, for Christ's sake, the 03 shitty Mavs defense wouldn't let Tim Duncan have the ball without doubling him.
cue:Steve Kerr.

[aaronstampler]

Point to a 1 on 5 performance as impressive as what LeBron just did in a Spurs uniform on this stage.

Thanks..

The Spurs, by definition, don't have or need 1 on 5 performances. If they did, I'd be concerned. It's a team game. If their coach is too dumb to like actually have offensive plays, it's not my fault. I will say Tim's Game 6 vs. NJ stands as the greatest overall dominant game I've ever seen in the playoffs. Really it's impossible to compare because I don't think we'll ever have a guy take 33 shots in one game. Although one of these days, when Tony's in "attack mode"... . :rolleyes [/QUOTE]





Yeah the Cavs played some nice defense. However, James had a part in the defense as well. He forced Prince into a big turnover, stole a pass by Prince and got some big rebounds.

If LeBron were on the Spurs, he'd easily be their second best perimeter defender.


Yes, LeBron was a part of that defense. I didn't mean to suggest that he wasn't. One team on the floor seemed to understand the concept of team defense, and one didn't. But I strongly disagree with the second best perimeter defender part. A) LeBron isn't the 2nd best perimeter defense on his OWN team (I'd take Hughes and Snow over him) and B) Manu's been pretty damn good defensively the last two series, his guy almost never scores on him and you fail to take notice. He shut down Kirilenko pretty well I'd say, despite the massive height disadvantage, and Bell didn't do anything either. Seriously, I don't know what you want from the guy, you're getting to be like TPark in your demands of him.[/QUOTE]




And on most of those other 21 points, he was guarded by others.

Yes, because Prince had failed, repeatedly. At that point they should have just doubled every play instead of thinking that Rip or Chauncey could do any better.




LeBron's best skill is his passing. Outside of Magic, I've never seen a player his size have the natural passing ability that he has.

And my point remains, if he was as on fire as he was and the Pistons defense was as bad as you claim, why should he pass?

Funny, I think his best skill is driving to his right, jumping really high and dunking. His passing is usually pretty good, but it was MIA in the 4th and OT. He either passed way too late or off the mark or both. Outside of that one to Gooden, his teammates didn't have many good looks or time to do anything when he got them the ball.

And I have no issue with him doing what he did when he was single covered. Of course driving was the right move. I just think that more attention should be paid to the fact that Detroit stupidly didn't double him or foul him enough. The number of lay-ups he got was inexcusable.




So LeBron deserves none of the credit? His fade away threes over double teams were due to bad defense?

LeBron was fantastic. If you don't want to admit that, not much I can do.

He was fantastic. He hit some unbelievable shots. But he didn't win the game by himself (even if he ever-so-humbly said he did in the presser) and the Pistons and their coach gave him considerable help.

[aaronstampler]

Sorry, maybe I've just been conditioned to like team basketball too much.

But watching the game with my best friend I simply couldn't understand why Detroit wasn't doubling him every play or why Detroit didn't even have a guy waiting for LeBron under the basket half the time. They played atrocious defense the last 20 minutes and nobody can convince me otherwise.

Secondly, when I see Mr. Superstar say things like, "Detroit was playing great defense, but I was making great moves to score" and "I willed my team to victory" I find it incredibly off-putting. No Spur would ever talk that way, even if they scored a 100 points. And the amount of time Mike Brown spends slurping this guy in the postgame is just nauseating. Are you his coach or his agent? Leave the hyperbole to the media, Mike. LeBron has enough guys telling him how great he is, your job is supposed to be motivating him to be better. This has a "Michael Jordan & The Jordanaries" feel to it and I don't like it. Brown should have spent the presser calling attention to how great the Cavs played as a team on defense to let LeBron do his thing on offense. You know, build up your role players and take your star off his pedastal.

LeBron's first coach refused to kiss his ass and James promptly got him shitcanned. I find all of this disturbing. But whatever, it sells shoes and soft drinks.

[timvp]

The Spurs, by definition, don't have or need 1 on 5 performances. If they did, I'd be concerned. It's a team game. If their coach is too dumb to like actually have offensive plays, it's not my fault. I will say Tim's Game 6 vs. NJ stands as the greatest overall dominant game I've ever seen in the playoffs. Really it's impossible to compare because I don't think we'll ever have a guy take 33 shots in one game. Although one of these days, when Tony's in "attack mode"... . :rolleyes

Then you are agreeing with what I said.

"Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance was better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform." -- timvp

Don't try to take my point out of context and then argue against it using my initial logic :lol


B) Manu's been pretty damn good defensively the last two series, his guy almost never scores on him and you fail to take notice. He shut down Kirilenko pretty well I'd say, despite the massive height disadvantage, and Bell didn't do anything either. Seriously, I don't know what you want from the guy, you're getting to be like TPark in your demands of him.

So you think guys like Kirilenko and Bell would score against LeBron? :lol

The Rockets almost made Kirilenko quit basketball and Bell's stats were a lot better than they were against the Lakers.

Against the Spurs, Bell shot 50% from the field and 50% from beyond the arc and averaged 12.5 points against the Spurs. Against the Lakers, Bell averaged 7.4 points and shot less than 40% from the field and the three-point line.

On the other hand, LeBron has destroyed Prince in this series. Prince started 1-for-19 in the first two games.

I think Manu is a very good team defender but taking off the rose colored glasses, you can see he isn't Michael Cooper.

If I'm supposed to give Manu one-on-one defensive props for his main assignment drastically improving against the Spurs, I must have missed that memo.


Yes, because Prince had failed, repeatedly. At that point they should have just doubled every play instead of thinking that Rip or Chauncey could do any better.

Then why did you go into a long spiel about how Prince was overrated?


Funny, I think his best skill is driving to his right, jumping really high and dunking. His passing is usually pretty good, but it was MIA in the 4th and OT. He either passed way too late or off the mark or both. Outside of that one to Gooden, his teammates didn't have many good looks or time to do anything when he got them the ball.

And I have no issue with him doing what he did when he was single covered. Of course driving was the right move. I just think that more attention should be paid to the fact that Detroit stupidly didn't double him or foul him enough. The number of lay-ups he got was inexcusable.


So out of one side of your mouth you are criticizing LeBron for his passing and out of the other side of your mouth you are saying driving was the right move?

If the Piston's defense was as bad as you are making it sound, LeBron should have shot 50 times tonight.


He was fantastic. He hit some unbelievable shots. But he didn't win the game by himself (even if he ever-so-humbly said he did in the presser) and the Pistons and their coach gave him considerable help.

That was as close to a player can get to winning a game by himself. His teammates were either fouled out or sucking and he carried them.

Twist it however you want but if Manu had done that against the Pistons in the Finals, you along with 99% of every other Spurs fan would be planning the Manu statue outside the AT&T Center.

:lol @ the thought of a Spurs fan coming to post "wait wait wait did you see the Pistons' help defense when Manu was scoring his 30 points in a row? Kobe could have gone for 70. It wasn't Manu as much as Flip"

:lmao

[BeerIsGood!]

Does anyone here think the Pistons' defense was good in the 4th and 2 OT?

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Does anyone here think the Pistons' defense was good in the 4th and 2 OT?
if you compare it to the way teams like to key on Manu at the top, and the way they double Timmy before he gets to the paint. I'd say they were disrespecting Lebron's game.

Did you notice how weak the double team was in the overtimes, when Lebron was isolating at the top of the key?

and they asked why when they went to trap Lebron why Lebron was able to get the ball back. :lol

It wasn't BAD defense though, just not the tightest. So Chuck was right when he was arguing about why they let him score 29 straight points!

[aaronstampler]

Then you are agreeing with what I said.

"Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance was better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform." --

Um, he finished +2 in a game they won by exactly two points. His teammates scored 61 points out of their first 80 or whatever it was and held their own whenever LeBron was on the bench.




So you think guys like Kirilenko and Bell would score against LeBron? :lol

The Rockets almost made Kirilenko quit basketball and Bell's stats were a lot better than they were against the Lakers.

Against the Spurs, Bell shot 50% from the field and 50% from beyond the arc and averaged 12.5 points against the Spurs. Against the Lakers, Bell averaged 7.4 points and shot less than 40% from the field and the three-point line.

On the other hand, LeBron has destroyed Prince in this series. Prince started 1-for-19 in the first two games.

I think Manu is a very good team defender but taking off the rose colored glasses, you can see he isn't Michael Cooper.

If I'm supposed to give Manu one-on-one defensive props for his main assignment drastically improving against the Spurs, I must have missed that memo.

When Bell was scoring, it wasn't against Manu. I guess you were watching different games. In that one game where he hit four first half threes, one was against Elson, one was against Tony and two were against Fin. Manu's guy very, very rarely scores on him in a half court situation, mainly because he plays the weakside guy in the defense. But he was doing a solid job of not letting AK post him up and he even fronted Marion when he had to vs. Phx.




Then why did you go into a long spiel about how Prince was overrated?


He is overrated, but he's still the best they've got. I don't think anyone in the league can guard LeBron one-on-one. But there are like 30, 40 guys you can say that about. It's pretty much impossible to play shut down defense with today's rules.



So out of one side of your mouth you are criticizing LeBron for his passing and out of the other side of your mouth you are saying driving was the right move?

You're not paying attention. I was critical of his passing on the occasions that he was trapped or doubled. The main reason he scored 25 straight points or whatever it was is because when he was doubled, he passed late and poorly. I have no issues with his game when he was single covered.




That was as close to a player can get to winning a game by himself. His teammates were either fouled out or sucking and he carried them.

Twist it however you want but if Manu had done that against the Pistons in the Finals, you along with 99% of every other Spurs fan would be planning the Manu statue outside the AT&T Center.

:lol @ the thought of a Spurs fan coming to post "wait wait wait did you see the Pistons' help defense when Manu was scoring his 30 points in a row? Kobe could have gone for 70. It wasn't Manu as much as Flip"


Again, his teammates were pretty damn good on offense for 3+ quarters and if the whole team doesn't play well on defense then LeBron never gets the opportunity to win the game in OT. Hell if he makes the FTs in regulation there isn't even an OT.

And if a team played defense like that, at home, against Manu, there would be a fan riot on the court and the coach would be torn limb from limb. There is almost always a guy waiting for him in the lane when he drives. I think it's pretty absurd that more attention is paid to Manu defensively in playoff games than LeBron, don't you?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Its pretty sad when james puts on the single best performance of these playoffs and we start measuring our epeens to it.

At least this should put the James choking in big games thing to rest.

[Strike]

At least this should put the James choking in big games thing to rest.

Not in my opinion. One great performance does not a clutch player make.

Let Lebron do something like that a couple more times and make a few buzzer beaters when his team is DOWN. Then the clutch/choker debate will be different.

[slayermin]

Missed most of this game but I did see Antonio McDyess get tossed. That had to have played a major factor in the game.

But I did catch the end and LeBron was incredible. Spurs really don't have anyone to match up with him. James White, maybe?

As far as the Pistons are concerned, it's becoming more and more evident that they were better with Big Ben.

[timvp]

Um, he finished +2 in a game they won by exactly two points.
:lol

What did you want his +/- to be? He played 51 out of the 58 minutes.

The Cavs minus LeBron managed to keep the Pistons' bench from extending the lead in 7 minutes of action. Not exactly an amazing accomplishment.


Manu's guy very, very rarely scores on him in a half court situation, mainly because he plays the weakest guy in their offense.

Fixed.

And you're the one who pointed to Bell as being a player Manu defended well. It sounded pretty good until you look at the stats.

But yeah, I'm sure all of Bell's points were when Manu was switched off of him.

And for the record, when I said LeBron would be the Spurs' second best perimeter defender, I was saying he was a better defender than Finley -- who in the playoffs has been the Spurs' second best perimeter defender.


I think it's pretty absurd that more attention is paid to Manu defensively in playoff games than LeBron, don't you?

Yeah it's pretty absurd if someone believes that.

[timvp]

Anyways, props to LeBron.

If the Spurs do eventually meet up with him, hopefully they can find an answer.

[aaronstampler]

:lol

What did you want his +/- to be? He played 51 out of the 58 minutes.

The Cavs minus LeBron managed to keep the Pistons' bench from extending the lead in 7 minutes of action. Not exactly an amazing accomplishment.


Well, if his teammates are as bad as you've implied, you'd think Detroit could stretch a lead with LeBron off the floor, since, y'know, Cleveland would be completely unable to score a point without Mr. Superduperstar. Also, in Game 4, it should be noted that in a game Cleveland won by four, LeBron was a -4. Food for thought.



Fixed.

And you're the one who pointed to Bell as being a player Manu defended well. It sounded pretty good until you look at the stats.

But yeah, I'm sure all of Bell's points were when Manu was switched off of him.

And for the record, when I said LeBron would be the Spurs' second best perimeter defender, I was saying he was a better defender than Finley -- who in the playoffs has been the Spurs' second best perimeter defender.

I seriously have no idea what you're watching out there. Finley has been sent to the bench multiple times these playoffs for playing less than stellar defense. You keep telling me how awful Manu is defensively, but you can't seem to recall any instances of a guy, like, actually scoring on him, except Melo in Game 1. Manu challenges jump shots, denies the ball as well as anybody, draws charges, comes up with steals, and if a guy does dribble by him, he does so with his weakside (going left for a righty, going right for a lefty). I honestly don't know what more you could want or expect. Yeah, he guards less talented players in general than Bowen, but that is more out of respect to Bowen than out of slight to Manu. No matter who our SG was, Bowen would still be guarding the toughest guy.



Yeah it's pretty absurd if someone believes that.

Detroit played atrocious defense on LeBron those last 20 minutes. He should have been doubled every possession and on half of his drives the big man didn't even rotate over. Sorry, I'm not gonna gonna bow down to such sloppy execution. I actually watched the game and every single person in the bar I was at was saying the same thing when LeBron was getting those dunks - WHERE IS THE DEFENSE?? When he hit the jumpers, people were impressed. The dunks/lay-ups were cake.

[aaronstampler]

Anyways, props to LeBron.

If the Spurs do eventually meet up with him, hopefully they can find an answer.

You mean the Spurs have to somehow come up with the concept of double teaming or having a big man rotate over? OMG, I don't know if Pop can possibly come up with something that daring.... :lol :lol :lol

I swear to God, you're acting like a little kid, drooling about a right handed player driving right against single coverage and an empty lane. LeBron couldn't have faced easier defense those last ten minutes if he was playing NBA Jam.

[timvp]

You mean the Spurs have to somehow come up with the concept of double teaming or having a big man rotate over? OMG, I don't know if Pop can possibly come up with something that daring.... :lol :lol :lol

I swear to God, you're acting like a little kid, drooling about a right handed player driving right against single coverage and an empty lane. LeBron couldn't have faced easier defense those last ten minutes if he was playing NBA Jam.

:jack

So now the Spurs shouldn't even try to find an answer for LeBron? Have you seen LeBron against the Spurs? He usually gets whatever he wants.

Go back to playing with your Manu doll where you can make him the bestest player in the world with no weaknesses and peons like LeBron aren't even allowed to be thought of. I'm done with you in this thread. I don't know why I even waste the keystrokes.

If anyone else wants to step up to the plate, I'll continue there.

[slayermin]

Time to dig up the Cavs - Spurs game tape.

[MannyIsGod]

People love to hate Lebron.

The guy is just really fucking GOOD.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Not in my opinion. One great performance does not a clutch player make.

Let Lebron do something like that a couple more times and make a few buzzer beaters when his team is DOWN. Then the clutch/choker debate will be different.
I'd say Lebron is becoming more clutch by the minute.

I think his game isn't perfect, but he's proven he isn't afraid of the big moments. He really manned up.

His debut last year had given him clutch opportunities and he delivered.
I say, if I had to pick ONE GREAT PERFORMANCE to at least hint at a person's clutchness, this one makes a pretty good case for him.

[aaronstampler]

:jack

So now the Spurs shouldn't even try to find an answer for LeBron? Have you seen LeBron against the Spurs? He usually gets whatever he wants.

Go back to playing with your Manu doll where you can make him the bestest player in the world with no weaknesses and peons like LeBron aren't even allowed to be thought of. I'm done with you in this thread. I don't know why I even waste the keystrokes.

If anyone else wants to step up to the plate, I'll continue there.

I don't believe I've suggested anywhere that I believe Manu to be the better player but go ahead and resort to insults like you always do when I point out the flaws in your arguments.

I find you silly for being so overwhelmed by a right handed player driving right against a single defender and no rotating big men. Am I supposed to be impressed by that? Some of the jumpers were impressive, but lots of guys in this league could've gotten those lay-ups and dunks at the end. For you to even compare that defense to what the Pistons are accustomed to is an insult to them. If Detroit played like that every game, they'd be a lottery team.

As far as "answers for LeBron" I hate to break it to you, but Pop won't come up with some magic formula to stop him. He's going to get his points as all great players do. But as is the case with every slashing player, we'll have bigs in the lane waiting for him and try to deny him the ball as much as we can. What else can any defense do? We're not going to throw any gimmick defenses at him and there is no need to. We're not going to quadruple him or something crazy. Our system is our system and it works. My only concern with the match-up is the refs giving LeBron the Dywane Wade treatment in an effort to artificially prolong the series, and even then he's only going to hit 70% of the free throws anyway. :lol

[JustSpurs]

Mike Brown has every reason in the world to prop James for last night's game. The kid was could not be stopped.

[ShoogarBear]

What's classic about this thread is Manu scored 24 consecutive points against the Atlanta freakin' Hawks in the second quarter of a game in February and Spurs fans had to be restrained from having a river parade to hail what was said to be the greatest moment in the history of human civilization.

LeBron goes for 25 straight point against the Detroit Pistons in the fourth quarter and two overtime periods in Game 5 the Eastern Conference Finals on the road and Spurs fans aren't impressed.

Classic :rollin:lmao

[ShoogarBear]

For the record, I saw MJ drop 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs.

This game was at least equal to and possibly better.

[Testing]

I wonder how different the series would have been if Larry Brown and Ben Wallace where still with the Pistons.


Forget Ben Wallace....Larry Brown alone could have saved this Pistons team...and last years as well.

Flip Saunders is the reason the Pistons haven't gotten to the Finals last year and most likely not this year. He is their coach yes, but he is not a motivator, not an enforcer, and certainly not a strategist....I mean calling for a zone defense with 23 seconds left and the ball in Lebron's hand, WHICH LEADS TO AN EASY LAYUP FOR HIM??????

IMO this is also why the Pistons continue to struggle with their "on/off switch" mentality. Spurs do it all the time too, difference is they have Pop to right the ship whereas Pistons don't have a coach who they are willing to listen to so its basically on them.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Calling Lebron's performance tonight the greatest he has ever seen at this 'level' at this point in the season.

Wasn't he still on our bench when Duncan closed out the Nets with the near quadruple double? Ass...


Great idea for a coach to start talking about his old team when asked to rank Lebron's performance. You're an idiot

[ducks]

Mike Brown has every reason in the worls to prop James for last night's game. The kid was could not be stopped.
yes he could if you replace flip with pop

[Oh, Gee!!]

yes he could if you replace flip with pop

I doubt Pop could guard Lebron

[Jimcs50]

Calling Lebron's performance tonight the greatest he has ever seen at this 'level' at this point in the season.

Wasn't he still on our bench when Duncan closed out the Nets with the near quadruple double? Ass...


Please! You have to excuse the man for being freaking excited for his team...his guy single handedly beat the Pistons even with 3 starters fouling out.....sheesh.

:rolleyes

[SAGambler]

You contradict yourself here. If he's one on five that means hes dishing to open teammates.

That was the problem, he was going one on one nearly every time. Virtually no traps or doubles to get the ball into someone elses hands.

As for beating another team singlehandedly, it doesn't need to be done solely on the offensive end. Tim destroyed the Nets on both ends of the court from start to finish. You can't compare a one dimensional performance to a multidimensional performance like Timmys.

Its not even close.

All James brings is offense. And everyone keeps harping on his 29 points.

If I remember correctly, the Spurs had a player score 24 consecutive points in under 5 minutes on the court this season.

And yet no one crowned Manu the "King" at the time. Or even that it was the "greatest performance ever".

James is good. I'll give him that... But if he tries to play 1 on 5 against the Spurs, he is going to leave sorely disappointed.

Remember "The Answers" remarks after that Denver series. "I would get by one, and there would be another one waiting on me".......Certainly not the kind of "D" the Pisons put up last night.

But then maybe last night was a good thing. It may just reinforce in James mind that he can do it alone, and he will try to play 1 on 5 ball IF they manage to close this series out.

[Jimcs50]

I work with women and have been doing so for 20 yrs, and one thing I notice is, you can not say something nice about one to another woman, without getting the response, "well, what about me, is she better at that than I?"

AHF, your thread reminds me of just that. You have woman tendencies, my man.

[LEONARD]

I think Spurs fans disagree, Aggie :lol

[Soul_Patch]

Props to Mike Brown for some heady play calling:

5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
Timeout
Brown: "LeBron do you want to rest and let Z take the next one?"
James: "A rest on offense? Are you kidding me?"
Brown: "Okay, Okay you win"
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout
5-out, clearout



ROFL...my thoughts exactly i cant stand the style of offense they play...no team..just get the ball to lebron and move out of the way...

[nkdlunch]

LMAO at Rip on Lebron.

[cherylsteele]

The Pistons had a big gaping hole in the middle.
The Detroit Donuts?

[MI21]

A weird trend I have noticed in Spurs fans since LeBron entered the league is that they don't like him. I see more hate for him on Spurs forums than I do on other NBA forums and in general. It's strange, he is an exceptional player. The way his defense has improved from his rookie season has particuly impressed me.

[RonMexico]

AHF, that's like BCG coming out and saying "sure, Acie was good tonight and he's hit good shots, but did you see those guys from Kentucky? Man, I really love wearing blue and sitting in Rupp Arena, I really those kids are going places. I just love Lexington."

Mike Brown isn't going to sit around after LeBron just scored 25 straight points to win the game on the road with no supporting cast and say, "Well, I did see Tim Duncan close out a terrible Eastern Conference team on our home floor, so LeBron was alright tonight."

[Solid D]

ROFL...my thoughts exactly i cant stand the style of offense they play...no team..just get the ball to lebron and move out of the way...

Hey, don't get me wrong. If I were Mike Brown, I'd have kept doing the same thing if it continued to work. LeBron is a man-beast.

That strategy doesn't always work, however, and even a strong kid like LeBron James will wear down over the course of several games with that level of intensity and exertion.

[King]

For the record, I saw MJ drop 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs.

This game was at least equal to and possibly better.

I can't believe you would dig on Tim Duncan like that.

[Kevin Blackistone]

A weird trend I have noticed in Spurs fans since LeBron entered the league is that they don't like him. I see more hate for him on Spurs forums than I do on other NBA forums and in general. It's strange, he is an exceptional player. The way his defense has improved from his rookie season has particuly impressed me.

I don't think anyone here except ducks is a Lebron hater... some people just realize that although the feat his achieved was definitely great, he received a lot of help from the Pistons by the defense playing him straight up with RIP and Billups guarding him and absolutely no help defense. To the kid's credit he did exactly what he was supposed to do with them guarding him that way by shoving the ball right down their throats. It was impressive

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What's classic about this thread is Manu scored 24 consecutive points against the Atlanta freakin' Hawks in the second quarter of a game in February and Spurs fans had to be restrained from having a river parade to hail what was said to be the greatest moment in the history of human civilization.

LeBron goes for 25 straight point against the Detroit Pistons in the fourth quarter and two overtime periods in Game 5 the Eastern Conference Finals on the road and Spurs fans aren't impressed.

Classic :rollin

I think it was a hell of a performance, don't get me wrong. I just think going two blocks short of a quadruple double in the clinching game of the NBA Finals is a better feat than scoring a bunch of points against a team that has Forrest Gump for its head coach and sits there with his head up his ass watching a guy run the same play for the last umpteen minutes of the game against his team.

[confined]

Lebron was off the charts tonight.. don't be a hater.
agreed

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Great idea for a coach to start talking about his old team when asked to rank Lebron's performance. You're an idiot

Right, coaches never EVER compare performances of a player to performances in the past. Thanks for straightening me out. :rolleyes

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The game was on TNT.



Link to where I called it the greatest performance I've ever seen?



Did you just claim that Gibson was a defensive player? :lol

Did you miss when he was pulled from the game whenever the Cavs needed a stop? Or did you miss when the Pistons offense consisted of one play -- pass it to whoever Gibson is guarding and get an easy basket.



Flip did have a part in it. But you must have been watching a different game because the game I watched didn't have Prince guarding LeBron. The Pistons used Billups and Hamilton on LeBron during his run more than they used Prince.



He got his teammates some good shots. Gooden missed a wide open five footer. Pavlovic missed about 8 shots down the stretch. Gibson had a wide open three.

But when you are shooting at a 70%+ clip like LeBron was doing and his teammates hadn't scored for literally an hour, LeBron should have kept attacking.

And be serious. If Manu pulled off the same explosion you wouldn't even be able to post because your chode would have exploded into 20,000 pieces and you'd have to be rushed to ER.

Shi--ii-i---i--ii---ii--iit.

:lmao
aaronstampler = :smchode:

[dg7md]

What's classic about this thread is Manu scored 24 consecutive points against the Atlanta freakin' Hawks in the second quarter of a game in February and Spurs fans had to be restrained from having a river parade to hail what was said to be the greatest moment in the history of human civilization.

LeBron goes for 25 straight point against the Detroit Pistons in the fourth quarter and two overtime periods in Game 5 the Eastern Conference Finals on the road and Spurs fans aren't impressed.

Classic :rollin

:lol :lol :lol

[ZStomp]

Weak.

what a hater.

LB was impressive.

[ZStomp]

Weak.

what a hater.

LJ was impressive.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Right, coaches never EVER compare performances of a player to performances in the past. Thanks for straightening me out. :rolleyes

Not after a game 5 when his star player just rattled off 25 straight points in a row in a hostile environment to secure a commanding 3-2 lead in the ECF.

The only appropriate comparison to make in that situation is that his star player's performance eclipses all other performances of every player whether it be past, present, or future. You don't start talking about what Tim Duncan did when you were his assistant coach, at least not if you want to keep your job. You DB

[ShoogarBear]

A weird trend I have noticed in Spurs fans since LeBron entered the league is that they don't like him. I see more hate for him on Spurs forums than I do on other NBA forums and in general. It's strange, he is an exceptional player. The way his defense has improved from his rookie season has particuly impressed me.I can pretty much guarantee that Spur fans don't "hate" LeBron as much as Bull and Piston fans.

But you are correct in noting that the backlash to LeBron started pretty early. I remember there was a lot of MJ hate before his first two titles, too.