Hollinger REALLY disagrees with Whott

[101A]

The Whole Chat (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=16069)



Milt (Omaha): You have to say the Spurs had the easiest road to the Finals. The Denver McNuggets, they Horry-ed themselves past the Suns, and then they were lucky enough to get the Jazz since the Mavs choked. Now, they get the Cavs!!! What are your thoughts, John?

SportsNation John Hollinger: (2:16 PM ET ) Um, hello! The CAVS had the easiest road to the Finals. This is the fourth-best team San Antonio has faced in the postseason. Sorry.

Chris (Broadview Heights, OH): It appears you've picked the Spurs to win in 5 games. Only predicting the Cavs to win one so that's not much love there. I'm not saying you will be wrong or not but why do you believe this series will be so lopsided?

SportsNation John Hollinger: (2:17 PM ET ) Denver and Utah are at least as good as Cleveland, and the Spurs dismissed both in five. Not sure why the Cavs would be any different. Only potential X factor is if Boobie starts pumping in 25 every night.

[mardigan]

I think the only team in the Western playoffs the Cavs are better than are the Lakers, other than that I would take any other team that made the playoffs in the West over them

[z0sa]

But the question remains: if the Cavs are so bad, how did they beat Detroit? Of course theres plenty of opinions and answers, but the mere fact that they are in the Finals says something to me.

[nkdlunch]

if the Cavs are so bad, how did they beat Detroit?

easy:
Flip Saunders head coach. Chris Webber starting forward.

[Darkwaters]

But the question remains: if the Cavs are so bad, how did they beat Detroit? Of course theres plenty of opinions and answers, but the mere fact that they are in the Finals says something to me.

Detroit looked like an absolute shadow of their former selves. I was not impressed by their execution on either end of the court as they looked lost and apathetic. It is the decline of the golden age of basketball in Piston-town and the Heat and Cavs are just the two teams to realize it first.

[Supergirl]

Right - I was not so surprised that the Cavs won against the Pistons as I was how badly the Pistons played in all 4 games. They could have easily lost 1 of both of the first 2 games. They really just don't look like the same team this playoffs, and I'm not sure why. Chauncey Billups doesn't have the same swagger, Sheed resorting to bad fouls and technicals - not sure what happened. Maybe they miss Ben Wallace's leadership. I mean, certainly they miss his defense and his presence in the paint, but that alone is not enough to explain the difference. But Ben and Chauncey seemed to me to be the emotional leaders of the team in 2005, and they miss something less tangible without Ben. Maybe they weren't hungry enough for it this year.

[whottt]

We shall find out...

I think the Cavs are a better team than Utah. I don't even see how that's arguable. LeBron by himself makes them better than Utah. We got Denver before they gelled..if they'd been together an entire season, we'd have had a lot more trouble with them...and they were still tough. Phoenix ended up being tougher than anyone expected, and they might have been the true best team in the NBA this year...but we still held a signifigant mental edge against them...they don't know how to beat the Spurs, and they came real close to figuring it out before Horry sidetracked them.


I think the Spurs had a tougher road than the Cavs...obviously, but that doesn't mean anything now...they match up with us well, and here they are. Matching this Spurs team up against previous champion
Spurs Teams reveals it to be the least of them to make it to the finals so far...I hope I am wrong.

[DoubtingThomas]

I have not doubts the Spurs will win the Series.

[whottt]

And would you fnckers stop leaving off the third t? I see a lot of that going on these days and it's starting to make me mad.


Would you like it if I called you 101?


Thanks, in advance.

[BeerIsGood!]

And would you fnckers stop leaving off the third t? I see a lot of that going on these days and it's starting to make me mad.


Would you like it if I called you 101?


Thanks, in advance.

Stop yer bitchin'. You can leave off the ! on mine all you want you egotistical :donkey

[objective]

Billlups for the entire series had more turnovers than assists.

Good defense by the Cavs? Sure, but an awful lot of poor decsions by Billups and it still went 6 games.

[fuckespn]

We shall find out...

I think the Cavs are a better team than Utah. I don't even see how that's arguable. LeBron by himself makes them better than Utah. We got Denver before they gelled..if they'd been together an entire season, we'd have had a lot more trouble with them...and they were still tough. Phoenix ended up being tougher than anyone expected, and they might have been the true best team in the NBA this year...but we still held a signifigant mental edge against them...they don't know how to beat the Spurs, and they came real close to figuring it out before Horry sidetracked them.


I think the Spurs had a tougher road than the Cavs...obviously, but that doesn't mean anything now...they match up with us well, and here they are. Matching this Spurs team up against previous champion
Spurs Teams reveals it to be the least of them to make it to the finals so far...I hope I am wrong.

How can Lebron by himself be better than the Jazz when Deron Williams is better than he is? Yeah I said it faggot, got a problem?

[ClingingMars]

And would you fnckers stop leaving off the third t? I see a lot of that going on these days and it's starting to make me mad.


Would you like it if I called you 101?


Thanks, in advance.

whot

-Mars

[NASpurs]

And would you fnckers stop leaving off the third t? I see a lot of that going on these days and it's starting to make me mad.


Would you like it if I called you 101?


Thanks, in advance.Sure thing whot.

[mardigan]

I think the Cavs are a better team than Utah. I don't even see how that's arguable.
Utah won more games in the West, have better coaching and better players

[SAGambler]

But the question remains: if the Cavs are so bad, how did they beat Detroit? Of course theres plenty of opinions and answers, but the mere fact that they are in the Finals says something to me.

It appeared the Pistons weren't even interested in winning. I don't know if it is because Saunders has let the players take over the team or what. Maybe they just thought they could always turn it on and win in the end. But that Piston team certainly didn't look like the one I have watched in the past.

[z0sa]

Lebron drove into the lane for a gamewinning layup in double OT of game 5 of the ECF.

No matter what team you play for, that takes some balls.

[whottt]

Spurs over Jazz in 5

[ChumpDumper]

BeerIsGoo

[koopa]

We shall find out...

I think the Cavs are a better team than Utah. I don't even see how that's arguable. LeBron by himself makes them better than Utah. We got Denver before they gelled..if they'd been together an entire season, we'd have had a lot more trouble with them...and they were still tough. Phoenix ended up being tougher than anyone expected, and they might have been the true best team in the NBA this year...but we still held a signifigant mental edge against them...they don't know how to beat the Spurs, and they came real close to figuring it out before Horry sidetracked them.


I think the Spurs had a tougher road than the Cavs...obviously, but that doesn't mean anything now...they match up with us well, and here they are. Matching this Spurs team up against previous champion
Spurs Teams reveals it to be the least of them to make it to the finals so far...I hope I am wrong.


yeah horry cast a spell making amare and boris forget the rules of leaving the bench during an altercation......... why the fuck do you have the spurs as your favorite team, you are a fucking hater

[whottt]

yeah horry cast a spell making amare and boris forget the rules of leaving the bench during an altercation......... why the fuck do you have the spurs as your favorite team, you are a fucking hater


I like what Horry did...I don't think he had a doubt he was going to get suspended for that hit. It was a message to his teamates as much as it was to Steve Nash...and I don't know exactly what was going through his mind, but his intentions and message were pretty clear.

[whottt]

But anyway, back to the Cavs...you are guys are wrong about LeBron James...that dude is a stone cold killer...he's not some stupid young kid always putting his foot in his mouth. He knows what it takes to win...and he's smarter than his years. He's going to be the guy with the ball.

[whottt]

PS: I know a heck of a lot more about the Spurs than John Hollinger does.

[101A]

And would you fnckers stop leaving off the third t? I see a lot of that going on these days and it's starting to make me mad.


Would you like it if I called you 101?


Thanks, in advance.


My bad... WhottT

[whottt]

PSS: We've never faced a player in the finals as good as LeBron James.

[mardigan]

No but Detroit was a much better team

[NoMoneyDown]

PSS: We've never faced a player in the finals as good as LeBron James.

But we've faced several TEAMS better than the Cavaliers. :toast

[Mr. Body]

PSS: We've never faced a player in the finals as good as LeBron James.

Small surprise, with a weakened East. The Finals, save one year, were never much of a problem.

[whottt]

Small surprise, with a weakened East. The Finals, save one year, were never much of a problem.

And you think about how tough all those teams turned out to be...

Every single one of them was tougher than expected...

Having the goal in clear site makes teams fight a lot harder.

[whottt]

But we've faced several TEAMS better than the Cavaliers. :toast



One...the Pistons, the team LeBron just destroyed just about single handedly, and they almost beat us...it took a miracle game from Horry.

I know this Pistons team is not as good...and thank goodness...it took us 7 games to beat them. LeBron did it in less to this team, in more impressive fashion.

[Spurminator]

One...the Pistons, the team LeBron just destroyed just about single handedly

Not the same team.

Different coach, different center, different attitude.

[101A]

PSS: We've never faced a player in the finals as good as LeBron James.

Way to equivocate.

That's because our toughest match-ups are generally in the West. I think that's the point.

[101A]

Every single one of them was tougher than expected...



Save for a Bavetta special, NY was a sweep.

[whottt]

Way to equivocate.

That's because our toughest match-ups are generally in the West. I think that's the point.

Really?

That didn't turn out to be true in 05.
It's arguable if that was true in 03...
And scoreboard says that wasn't true in 99 either.

[whottt]

Save for a Bavetta special, NY was a sweep.


Good thing Bavetta is retired...

[td4mvp3]

PSS: We've never faced a player in the finals as good as LeBron James.
yeah, but i'm not sure the spurs have ever been better as a team. 99 team couldn't score without duncan, the 03 team had manu and tony nearly rookies, 05 duncan, manu and tony were hurt (the last two from what i've read on this board). gotta count for something.

[whottt]

yeah, but i'm not sure the spurs have ever been better as a team. 99 team couldn't score without duncan, the 03 team had manu and tony nearly rookies, 05 duncan, manu and tony were hurt (the last two from what i've read on this board). gotta count for something.

The 99 team could score without Duncan...Drob could still score then, in fact he did so.

The 03 Team was the best Spurs Team ever IMO.

The 05 Team was lucky to beat the Pistons...it took the clutch performance of Robert Horry's career. Will he even be on the court in this series?

[duncan228]

The 05 Team was lucky to beat the Pistons...it took the clutch performance of Robert Horry's career. Will he even be on the court in this series?

Duncan wasn't healthy in '05.
A heathly Duncan means more to the Spurs as a whole than anything else.

[td4mvp3]

The 99 team could score without Duncan...Drob could still score then, in fact he did so.

The 03 Team was the best Spurs Team ever IMO.

The 05 Team was lucky to beat the Pistons...it took the clutch performance of Robert Horry's career. Will he even be on the court in this series?

horry's shot didn't win game 7, though. and regardless, it still doesn't address the fact that maybe horry isn't that big a hero if duncan et al are fully healthy. i mean, hell, the spurs blow out detroit in the first two games and magically tank on the same night that ginobilli gets kneed?

the 03 team was good but, again, how much better is that team with ginobilli playing at 05 level and tony at 07 level? i think 03 gino and 07 gino are pretty even. at the same time, robinson's back was giving out, jackson would score and then charge someone, and who was the bench outside of gino?

the 99 team relied enormously on duncan, much, much more so than the subsequent teams. the 99 squad does not beat phoenix in 05 the way the spurs did during the reg season.

[Sec24Row7]

PS: I know a heck of a lot more about the Spurs than John Hollinger does.


Holy Jesus....

Are you on their payroll like he is?

ROFL

[Mr. Body]

The 05 Team was lucky to beat the Pistons...it took the clutch performance of Robert Horry's career. Will he even be on the court in this series?

Of course he will.

[twentyone]

Stop yer bitchin'. You can leave off the ! on mine all you want you egotistical :donkey


yah but what if they left off the d? BeerIsGoo

Not so classy then is it? :drunk

[td4mvp3]

and what about the cavs in all this? pavlovic hasn't hit double figures since the semis, z had problems with webber who is not duncan, lebron doesn't appear to play much defense (that's where he lacks in relation to jordan), tony seems able to score at will, and the spurs averaged more assists than the cavs so the passing issue seems to be a push or to favor the spurs.

[whottt]

Pavlovic sucks...he might be the best player we have in this series. Let's hope for a lot of PT for him...and lots of touches.

[Strike]

One...the Pistons, the team LeBron just destroyed just about single handedly, and they almost beat us...it took a miracle game from Horry.

I know this Pistons team is not as good...and thank goodness...it took us 7 games to beat them. LeBron did it in less to this team, in more impressive fashion.

The Pistons team that took the Spurs to 7 in '05 was much better than the shell of a team that got worked by the Lebrons.

Bad comparison.

[fuckespn]

Pavlovic sucks...he might be the best player we have in this series. Let's hope for a lot of PT for him...and lots of touches.

I agree with you on this, he's terrible

[whottt]

The Pistons team that took the Spurs to 7 in '05 was much better than the shell of a team that got worked by the Lebrons.

Bad comparison.


They don't have Ben Wallace anymore and Flip is their coach...

We don't really have Robert Horry anymore...we've got Finley.

[td4mvp3]

They don't have Ben Wallace anymore and Flip is their coach...

We don't really have Robert Horry anymore...we've got Finley.
better yet, the spurs have gino, brent barry, horry and finley. certainly one of them can hit a three while duncan can be a bit better than c-webb.

[whottt]

better yet, the spurs have gino, brent barry, horry and finley. certainly one of them can hit a three while duncan can be a bit better than c-webb.


Horry = 6 rings
Finley = -1 ring(and that's just for us) +1 Finals for Mavs


He's almost like SARs that way.

[Supergirl]

It's true - Lebron is the first team the Spurs have faced in the Finals with a bona fide superstar of their own . But that certainly doesn't mean they've never faced a superstar of Lebron's caliber in the playoffs, and prevailed. Think Kobe, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett. And Deron Williams and Carmelo Anthony played like superstars for much of their playoff runs against the Spurs, just this year.

But the point is this: The Cavs cannot win a 7 game series with Lebron alone. I know his heroics in Games 5 and 6 of the series against the Pistons make it seem like it, but those games are not why the Cavs won the SERIES. The Pistons never played like they wanted to win, they never dominated the Cavs in the way I expected them to. That was clear in the first two games, even though the Pistons lost. And the Cavs smelled the Pistons fear and pounced, came back to tie the series, and then went for the jugular in the last two games.

I don't think they'll be able to do that against the Spurs - the Spurs have shown that when they lose even one game they tighten up and come back and defeat their opponent in the next game. So although I can imagine the Cavs might win 1, maybe 2 games in this series, I don't see how they can win a series against this team. Tim Duncan is too good, and the Spurs are too disciplined and poised.

[J.T.]

Lebron James is actually 32. They photoshopped his birth certificate.

[fuckespn]

Horry = 6 rings
Finley = -1 ring(and that's just for us) +1 Finals for Mavs


He's almost like SARs that way.

I hope after they win the championship, finley tracks you down and burns your house down

[whottt]

I hope after they win the championship, finley tracks you down and burns your house down



I hope Finley doesn't pull a Finley.

[BreezeHillBill]

But the question remains: if the Cavs are so bad, how did they beat Detroit? Of course theres plenty of opinions and answers, but the mere fact that they are in the Finals says something to me.
Deetroit stunk 4 games straight.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

whottt come on man

no fucking way the 07 or 06 pistons are as good as the 05 pistons (who imo were worse than the 04 pistons)

They've been on the decline ever since they destroyed the Lakers in 2004. No way under any circumstances is a team with Ben Wallace coached by Larry Brown worse than a team with Chris Webber coached by Flip fuckin Saunders.

Dude Flip has had a "bona fide" superstar on his roster for years and still did jack shit, its a given he is a horrible big time game coach.
Plus the lack of urgency out of the pistons was a universal observation. They just did not have "it" this postseason.

I bet my vbookie savings that Pistons 05 or 04 would have bukkaked the Cavs from every angle.




Besides, this 07 pistons team had NAZR so that automatically makes them suck...

[ObiwanGinobili]

To continue reading this article you must be an Insider.

[ATXSPUR]

Whottt....you have got to be kidding me. This is ridiculous.

[zekes]

Horry = 6 rings
Finley = -1 ring(and that's just for us) +1 Finals for Mavs


He's almost like SARs that way.

where's timvp when you need him? :lol

[whottt]

where's timvp when you need him? :lol



My hunch is that while timvp may like Finley better than Barry, and doesn't despise Finley per se...he's not exactly 100% sold on Finley himself. I don't know this for certain...just call it a strong hunch.

[medstudent]

finley hasnt done shit yet... he needs to finish out this series before the stigma is expunged.

that being said, whottt you are a stupid whore unless all your spurs bashing is the ultimate reverse mojination like last year.

[BeerIsGood!]

yah but what if they left off the d? BeerIsGoo

Not so classy then is it? :drunk

That's not the same, he's bitching about leaving off the same letter on a sequence of more than one of the same letters. I don't mind at all if you do that to mine...

beerisgod!

[whottt]

finley hasnt done shit yet... he needs to finish out this series before the stigma is expunged.

that being said, whottt you are a stupid whore unless all your spurs bashing is the ultimate reverse mojination like last year.


Actually last year I was pretty certain we were champs...till Pop decided to change his team to a small ball team in the middle of the second round.

I think the team was championship worthy...it just didn't do it.

This team is too, as in can do it, but won't...and this time it's not mainly because of Pop's small ball infatuation...the chemistry on this team is not as good as last years...and we have a tougher matchup in Clevelan than the Mavs, and Pop is still prone to small ball...luckily, he didn't even attempt it against Utah.


Hey man...I'm a SpursFan...if reverse mojo works...fantastic...may Finley make me eat my words. I think he's a choking b1tch and I think him being on the court instead of Horry is what will ultimately cost us this title....at the chemistry level, as well as the defensive level(read: small ball).

[FuzzyLumpkins]

and we have a tougher matchup in Clevelan than the Mavs,

well at least your always good for a laugh, whot.

[UV Ray]

BeerIsGoo


MUHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[whottt]

well at least your always good for a laugh, whot.


Mavs are chokers...don't know the Spurs personnel and system as well as the Cavs...and LeBron is a better SuperStar than Dirk...better scorer, better passer, and Dirk is not exactly Dennis Rodman on the boards.

The Mavs are chokers...losing to them was one of the most humiliating losses in Spurs history...who have they beaten that's truly a great team, other than us? They tried to choke to us to in game 7...blew a huge lead. The shame of the Spurs nation. I blame Finley, he comes here and we turn into the Mavs...if we don't win a title this season with him playing a major role, I want him gone. Some players just aren't meant to reach the promised land..and I believe he is one of them. Kick his azz to the curb...let him go back to the Mavs so we can stop being their b1tch.


Being a choker's b1tch is about as bad as it gets...and that's what we are...to Dallas. It's on Finley...to prove he's not title kryptonite.


Bash Barry all you want...but he's not title kryptonite...fact.

[peskypesky]

PSS: We've never faced a player in the finals as good as LeBron James.

But how about in the Western Conference Finals, Semi-Finals and First Round? I think we have. Several times over the past 9 years (the Duncan era). We've beaten teams that had Kobe & Shaq, or teams with Nash, Stoudamire and Marion, or teams with Dirk Nowitzky. We've beaten teams with MVP's in previous series, and Lebron has yet to win an MVP.

Lebron IS great, and if he had one all-star caliber team-mate, we might need to worry, but I just don't think his supporting cast is strong enough to take on a team with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley and Robert Horry.

[Obstructed_View]

Actually last year I was pretty certain we were champs...till Pop decided to change his team to a small ball team in the middle of the second round.
There's the point. Those players have had a year to work together and figure out where they are supposed to be. That lineup has therefore been an order of magnitude better on defense, especially coupled with the fact that Pop actually utilizes them properly instead of just throwing them out of the boat for 48 minutes and seeing if they swim. It takes a while to learn the Spurs defense, and even so, last year's team was starting to figure it out by the end of the Dallas series. Unfortunately for the Spurs it wasn't best of nine. Fin's team defense has improved dramatically and allowed him to be a good individual defender. The reason Barry looks increasingly bad on defense is probably in contrast to Fin's improvement in that area. James is going to have to score 50 a game on less than 30 shots in order for the Cavs to have a chance.

[GSH]

easy:
Flip Saunders head coach. Chris Webber starting forward.

Chris Webber looked and played like a dinosaur.

Tayshaun Prince had a nightmare series. You can give some credit to Cleveland's defense, if you want to. But Prince missed so many open looks and shots at the rim - shots he normally knocks down - where the Cavs defense was clearly not the problem. By the end, Cleveland was virtually ignoring him. Makes it easier to defend the other two guys.

No Ben Wallace. Can't over-state how important that was. They were able to pound Rasheed into the floor, because there was no big help for him.

[sprrs]

One...the Pistons, the team LeBron just destroyed just about single handedly, and they almost beat us...it took a miracle game from Horry.

I know this Pistons team is not as good...and thank goodness...it took us 7 games to beat them. LeBron did it in less to this team, in more impressive fashion.

The Cavs squeaked by in those games, they could have lost any one of them except for game 6. The Cavs particularly sucked in game 5, the Pistons were just worse.

Even with the Pistons nowhere near the level they were at in '05, they were still very capable of winning that series.

[colargol]

But the question remains: if the Cavs are so bad, how did they beat Detroit? .

Billups ......9 points 1 assist in a "must win"

[jaespur21]

hey whot hows it goin....Go finley

[ATXSPUR]

Whottt...until further notice that this is some sort of counterjinx...you are a moron.

[Supergirl]

I have to say, the performance this year by the Pistons should firmly cement Flip Saunders as one of the worst coaches EVER. I'm sorry, but he walked into a team that was ready to compete - minus maybe 1 piece (Ben Wallace or another decent center) for a championship, and since he came on, all the life dwindled out of that team. You couple that with spending a decade coaching KG and NOT being able to get him a championship - well, that pretty much makes Flip the worst coach ever. PLenty of coaches have done less - but very few with as many assets as Flip has been given to work with.

[wildbill2u]

And would you fnckers stop leaving off the third t? I see a lot of that going on these days and it's starting to make me mad.


Would you like it if I called you 101?


Thanks, in advance.
Whatt is your problem?

[ambchang]

Mavs are chokers...don't know the Spurs personnel and system as well as the Cavs...and LeBron is a better SuperStar than Dirk...better scorer, better passer, and Dirk is not exactly Dennis Rodman on the boards.

The Mavs are chokers...losing to them was one of the most humiliating losses in Spurs history...who have they beaten that's truly a great team, other than us? They tried to choke to us to in game 7...blew a huge lead. The shame of the Spurs nation. I blame Finley, he comes here and we turn into the Mavs...if we don't win a title this season with him playing a major role, I want him gone. Some players just aren't meant to reach the promised land..and I believe he is one of them. Kick his azz to the curb...let him go back to the Mavs so we can stop being their b1tch.


Being a choker's b1tch is about as bad as it gets...and that's what we are...to Dallas. It's on Finley...to prove he's not title kryptonite.


Bash Barry all you want...but he's not title kryptonite...fact.

Are you not the same guy who argued Robinson over Duncan because team success is not indicative of individual greatness? Why would Finley not winning a ring be indicative of him being a lesser player on the Spurs when Barry won a ring on totally different teams?

[whottt]

Are you not the same guy who argued Robinson over Duncan because team success is not indicative of individual greatness?
Not exactly...I argue that you can't win a championship without a great team. And you can't...in the playoffs a team built around a dominant big and no perimeter support will get bounced pretty easily.



Why would Finley not winning a ring be indicative of him being a lesser player on the Spurs when Barry won a ring on totally different teams?


What is so totally different about them....

Better yet...what was so totally different between the 05 Champions and the 06 Chokers?


The answer old foot...is one Michael Finley...and no one else.


Brent won is ring, and he played a major role in doing it...he was the guard off the bench in that title run. He did not a play a major role last year(except in the Kings win)...Finley played the major role last year. And likely again this year...not just Barry's role...but Horry's as well.

Finley was the guy in last years choke(even though he started). What can you say about Finley? He takes a lot of shots...he either makes them, or he doesn't...that's what he contributes on offense.

[Rick Von Braun]

BeerIsGoo

:lmao

[whottt]

Are you not the same guy who argued Robinson over Duncan because team success is not indicative of individual greatness? Why would Finley not winning a ring be indicative of him being a lesser player on the Spurs when Barry won a ring on totally different teams?



And to tell you the truth...it's not so much that I argue Drob over people...as it is he is sickeningly under-rated.

[MadDog73]

The 99 team could score without Duncan...Drob could still score then, in fact he did so.

The 03 Team was the best Spurs Team ever IMO.

'03 was lucky as hell. If Horry's shot in Game 5 went down (miracle it didn't), we would have never beaten the Lakers after '99. That's a scary thought!

All games going to 6, Dirk getting injured, I can't say how you can call '03 the easiest. It was the hardest, IMO.



The 05 Team was lucky to beat the Pistons...it took the clutch performance of Robert Horry's career. Will he even be on the court in this series?

No doubt '05 was the toughest Finals ever. But let's remember: First year without Robinson in the Finals.

You of all people know how important Robinson was.

IMO, this '07 team is the best team we've had without Robinson. I know you hate Finley, but hopefully, with him starting, we won't need a crazy Game from Horry to win the series.



Oh, and back to '06: Tim makes a free throw or Manu doesn't foul, and we're going to the Finals against the Heat. Can't blame that loss on Finley.

[ambchang]

Not exactly...I argue that you can't win a championship without a great team. And you can't...in the playoffs a team built around a dominant big and no perimeter support will get bounced pretty easily.

This is absolutely true, and I agree totally.


What is so totally different about them....

Better yet...what was so totally different between the 05 Champions and the 06 Chokers?


The answer old foot...is one Michael Finley...and no one else.


Brent won is ring, and he played a major role in doing it...he was the guard off the bench in that title run. He did not a play a major role last year(except in the Kings win)...Finley played the major role last year. And likely again this year...not just Barry's role...but Horry's as well.

Finley was the guy in last years choke(even though he started). What can you say about Finley? He takes a lot of shots...he either makes them, or he doesn't...that's what he contributes on offense.

But you just said it's because of Pop's small ball over and over again. Both Barry and Finley are role players, and their contributions should never be as striking as a championship and a 2nd round exit.

In 2005, Barry had an average of 6.9 ppg in 23 games in the playoffs, with about half as a starter, and shot 46/42/81 from the field, 3pt and FT, playing 24 mpg.

In 2006, Barry had an average of 7.8 ppg in 13 games in the playoffs, and shot 56/50/76 from the field, 3pt and FT, playing 23 mpg.

So it is quite apparent that Finley never took the minutes away from Barry, but was in fact complimenting his production.

Finley on the other hand, scored 10.5 ppg in 13 games in the 2006 playoffs, and shot 48/38/90 in 32 mpg. He had better production than Barry did in 2005.

Like you said earlier, it was small ball that finished off the Spurs, putting in Finley was a mistake as far as using him instead of a reliable big man that the Spurs didn't have, but Finley was never used at the expense of Barry.

[ambchang]

And to tell you the truth...it's not so much that I argue Drob over people...as it is he is sickeningly under-rated.
He definitely was underrated. I personally won't put Robinson > Duncan, strictly because of the rings, but I wouldn't put Duncan > Robinson either, because I would never know what would happen if Robinson had a decent FO that would put shooters around him.

[BWJACKETS]

But the question remains: if the Cavs are so bad, how did they beat Detroit? Of course theres plenty of opinions and answers, but the mere fact that they are in the Finals says something to me.

The Cavs, like San Antonio, are a much different team in the playoffs. This is one of the youngest teams in the league, so when they turned up the intensity they have the youth to do it to a much higher degree. Cleveland will make this an ugly series for Lebron to take over, which he will. It isn't a fluke that Cavs are 3-1 vs. SA since Mike Brown took over, he knows the Spurs playbook inside and out, Cleveland will win it with tight defense and the leadership of Lebron.

[DarkReign]

People comparing Deron Williams to LeBron James make me LOL.

DWill is the shit, and he proved it this year and playoffs.

But hes no LBJ...matter of fact, there isnt a player in the league like him. Kobe, big-fucking MAYBE. But Kobe isnt as strong.

Here's LeBron's consistent stats 20+ppg 8+rebs 8+dimes 1+steal 2+block

Here's LBJ's potential numbers when he is totally locked in

35+ppg 10+rebs 10+dimes 2+steals 4+blocks

And he doesnt even average very many FTs! He is not DWade, DWade couldnt pack his lunch (i would go as far as "he couldnt wear his jockstrap", because he could arguably do that).

LeBron is LeBron. Am I a witness now? Yes, yes I am.

Not because the Cavs beat Detroit. Its because LeBron beat Detroit single-handedly. Sure, these werent the same Pistons from past years, but they certainly werent so terrible that a one-man team could outplay them for 6 straight games.

[Obstructed_View]

'03 was lucky as hell. If Horry's shot in Game 5 went down (miracle it didn't), we would have never beaten the Lakers after '99. That's a scary thought!

All games going to 6, Dirk getting injured, I can't say how you can call '03 the easiest. It was the hardest, IMO.
I have to agree with Whottt on this one. The '03 team could do anything they wanted whenever they decided to. They never played 48 minutes and they just destroyed anyone that got in front of them once they turned it on. They routinely jumped out to huge leads and then gave them up, only to pull away again with huge run after huge run. They closed out on every team they played with near flawless performances on both ends of the floor. If not for their immaturity they could have won every game they played by 40 points. The only reason most of us remember '03 being so difficult is because you never knew if or when they were going to show up, and if they were suddenly going to be unable to just turn it on.

[101A]

I have to agree with Whottt on this one. The '03 team could do anything they wanted whenever they decided to. They never played 48 minutes and they just destroyed anyone that got in front of them once they turned it on. They routinely jumped out to huge leads and then gave them up, only to pull away again with huge run after huge run. They closed out on every team they played with near flawless performances on both ends of the floor. If not for their immaturity they could have won every game they played by 40 points. The only reason most of us remember '03 being so difficult is because you never knew if or when they were going to show up, and if they were suddenly going to be unable to just turn it on.

I would suggest that this year's version is closing in similar fashion; every time they have had a chance to close, they have turned in a really nice game; not to mention games following losses.

[Obstructed_View]

I would suggest that this year's version is closing in similar fashion; every time they have had a chance to close, they have turned in a really nice game; not to mention games following losses.
This team is much more consistent than the '03 team, which was damn near feast or famine. This team is almost as talented and is much more seasoned and mature. They still have a tendency to come out flat or just play gutless basketball. I'm hopeful that team is dead and gone.

The nice thing about this season is that the shitty fans in Phoenix and Utah gave the Spurs extra incentive not to want to go back.

[td4mvp3]

The Cavs, like San Antonio, are a much different team in the playoffs. This is one of the youngest teams in the league, so when they turned up the intensity they have the youth to do it to a much higher degree. Cleveland will make this an ugly series for Lebron to take over, which he will. It isn't a fluke that Cavs are 3-1 vs. SA since Mike Brown took over, he knows the Spurs playbook inside and out, Cleveland will win it with tight defense and the leadership of Lebron.

but it may be misleading. 2 of the losses came from back2backs. there are no back2backs in the playoffs. in the other two games, lebron was held to mortal numbers (much like he was in the pistons game 5 without the overtimes. 29 points, i think, something manageable to the spurs) of around 20 points. with that non-b2b split, the spurs beat the cavs by 12 or there abouts and lost by 4, if i remember right. and for all their defense, the cavs let a wiz team sans its 2 best players score in the 90s 3 of the 4 games; and never really blew out a hobbled nets team either.

[Obstructed_View]

but it may be misleading. 2 of the losses came from back2backs. there are no back2backs in the playoffs. in the other two games, lebron was held to mortal numbers (much like he was in the pistons game 5 without the overtimes. 29 points, i think, something manageable to the spurs) of around 20 points. with that non-b2b split, the spurs beat the cavs by 12 or there abouts and lost by 4, if i remember right. and for all their defense, the cavs let a wiz team sans its 2 best players score in the 90s 3 of the 4 games; and never really blew out a hobbled nets team either.
The first game they played last year the Spurs won by 26. They lost on the second night of a B2B at the end of the roadeo trip. I wouldn't be worried if the Bucks made it to the Finals, either...

[MadDog73]

I have to agree with Whottt on this one. The '03 team could do anything they wanted whenever they decided to. They never played 48 minutes and they just destroyed anyone that got in front of them once they turned it on. They routinely jumped out to huge leads and then gave them up, only to pull away again with huge run after huge run. They closed out on every team they played with near flawless performances on both ends of the floor. If not for their immaturity they could have won every game they played by 40 points. The only reason most of us remember '03 being so difficult is because you never knew if or when they were going to show up, and if they were suddenly going to be unable to just turn it on.


:wtf Are your seriously rating the '03 team on what they "could have" accomplished?

Well, allow me to retort. This '07 team could have swept every series so far, if they decided not to take a few games off.

I'm not sure what players you think were so great in '03. Robinson was not putting out amazing numbers. Oberto is doing fine there.

Finley > Jackson. Jackson cost us as many games as he won for us, but I'm sure that you'll just chalk that up to "immaturity."

Then add in Horry as one of the greatest clutch shooters ever...

Spurs fans should be happy as hell he's on our team now, and that his clutch shot in Game 5 in 2003 bounced out, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[td4mvp3]

The first game they played last year the Spurs won by 26. They lost on the second night of a B2B at the end of the roadeo trip. I wouldn't be worried if the Bucks made it to the Finals, either...
even better!

[danger]

detroit and cavs are like mavs and warriors. cavs plays detroit well, but by no means are the pistons on the same level as the SA Spurs. First, we have a man who can at will score against anyone in the league...he is always consistant and its not going to be any different now. if you think gooden, z, sideshow are going to give duncan more trouble than nene, camby, boozer, okur, najera, kg, and all those other suckers TD OWNS basically your a FOOL.
Manu and Tony will complement each other with great games, i expect Tony to play better in game 1,2 as then the defense will close the lane and he takes some time to make adjustmeents. MAnu he is going to play dangerously and do his thing.
Queen James, well he is going to get his and we dont expect anything less of him, Boobs is not going to get 31 against the spurs. z is going to be Zzzzzz off.

lets be real spurs in 6 max.

2007 NBA CHAMPIONS SA SPURS

[kskonn]

The Whole Chat (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=16069)





would you mind posting the whole chat, since it is insider I can not access the page.

thanks.

[ambchang]

The Cavs, like San Antonio, are a much different team in the playoffs. This is one of the youngest teams in the league, so when they turned up the intensity they have the youth to do it to a much higher degree. Cleveland will make this an ugly series for Lebron to take over, which he will. It isn't a fluke that Cavs are 3-1 vs. SA since Mike Brown took over, he knows the Spurs playbook inside and out, Cleveland will win it with tight defense and the leadership of Lebron.
I was playing against some kindergarten kids the other day, and damn, they were totally different when they decided to turn the game on! Must have been all that youth behind it.
I never say the correlation before, youth and the ability to turn on the game, but there was my proof!

[Obstructed_View]

:wtf Are your seriously rating the '03 team on what they "could have" accomplished?
First of all, that team won the championship and beat a couple of pretty good teams in the process, rather convincingly at that. Second, just go look at the box score of the close out games. Huge run against Phoenix. Huge run against the Lakers. Huge run against Dallas. Huge run against New Jersey. There's no "could have" to it. They did it time after time. They were so good that they could just whip the top teams as soon as they decided to do it. The only trouble they had during that playoff run was keeping a huge lead because they'd get so far ahead they'd lose focus.


Well, allow me to retort. This '07 team could have swept every series so far, if they decided not to take a few games off.
That's not a retort, that's an assumption. I do happen to agree with it. One problem, though: The '07 team isn't a championship team. If this team wins four more games I'll decide where they belong in comparison to the '03 team. The Spurs have had some rather good teams that didn't win the championship, and they aren't even considered in the discussion. Same goes for the team that plays Thursday until they do it.


I'm not sure what players you think were so great in '03. Robinson was not putting out amazing numbers. Oberto is doing fine there.
Please tell me that you didn't type that. Just apologize for it or don't mention it again.


Finley > Jackson. Jackson cost us as many games as he won for us, but I'm sure that you'll just chalk that up to "immaturity."
I can't imagine why I would consider a 34 year old Michael Finley more mature than a 24 year old Stephen Jackson. Maybe because it's valid.


Then add in Horry as one of the greatest clutch shooters ever...

Spurs fans should be happy as hell he's on our team now, and that his clutch shot in Game 5 in 2003 bounced out, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Sounds to me like you are the one making assumptions about what "could have" happened to support your theories. Are we going to get into hypotheticals? The Spurs had a huge lead and Horry missed a shot to win it. The Spurs had two more games at home. .4 was in San Antonio. Big difference. The '99 team and the '05 team had big wins by hitting shots at the end. What's the difference?

[MadDog73]

First of all, that team won the championship and beat a couple of pretty good teams in the process, rather convincingly at that. Second, just go look at the box score of the close out games. Huge run against Phoenix. Huge run against the Lakers. Huge run against Dallas. Huge run against New Jersey. There's no "could have" to it. They did it time after time. They were so good that they could just whip the top teams as soon as they decided to do it. The only trouble they had during that playoff run was keeping a huge lead because they'd get so far ahead they'd lose focus.

Sounds kinda like the '07 Spurs...



That's not a retort, that's an assumption. I do happen to agree with it. One problem, though: The '07 team isn't a championship team. If this team wins four more games I'll decide where they belong in comparison to the '03 team. The Spurs have had some rather good teams that didn't win the championship, and they aren't even considered in the discussion. Same goes for the team that plays Thursday until they do it.

Fair enough. I never assumed the '03 team would win a series, not even gainst Dallas. Maybe it was losing for 2 straight years with Duncan healthy, but I remember the '03 Championship being the hardest to win, with the caveat of the Finals.



Please tell me that you didn't type that. Just apologize for it or don't mention it again.

Robinson's '03 numbers: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/david_robinson/

7.86 pts in Playoffs, 8.35 rebounds. Oberto so far has 5.9 pts, 5 rebounds.

Yes, Robinson >>>>> Oberto. But, 2003 vs 2007, it's not as big a difference as you'd think.



I can't imagine why I would consider a 34 year old Michael Finley more mature than a 24 year old Stephen Jackson. Maybe because it's valid. Kinda my point.



Sounds to me like you are the one making assumptions about what "could have" happened to support your theories. Are we going to get into hypotheticals? The Spurs had a huge lead and Horry missed a shot to win it. The Spurs had two more games at home. .4 was in San Antonio. Big difference. The '99 team and the '05 team had big wins by hitting shots at the end. What's the difference?

That's my point: Most Championship runs come down to a little luck - but you have to be skilled to capitalize on that luck.

IMO, a big difference between success and failure is Horry's missed shot in 2003 for the Lakers, and .4 in 2004. It's strange, we argue about what team is better, when the reality is, a little luck and the Spurs could have 4 or 5 Championships already - or none.

Strange world.