Forget LeBron, Duncan Is Real Heir To Jordan

[duncan228]

I high-lighted in this one, I couldn't help myself!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19039734/

Forget LeBron, Duncan is real heir to Jordan

Spurs star isn’t flashy, explosive, but is game’s ultimate winner — like Mike

OPINION
By Mike Wise

Now that LeBron James has become ABC's savior of the NBA Finals — and LeBron says he is honored to be compared with Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson and Gandhi — we interrupt this homeroom crush for some genuine education.

The San Antonio Spurs are going to school Cleveland and win their fourth title, in six games or fewer, because they have the best player on the floor in the series. Tim Duncan, despite getting less love than jury duty, is maybe the largest difference-maker since Michael Jordan. Shaquille O'Neal is the only other big man who's won more from Duncan's generation.

It's nice that LeBron has evolved so quickly, overtaking Carmelo Anthony and Dwyane Wade from his draft class. But filling Kobe's excitement void from the playoffs is not the same as being on the verge of winning more titles than Larry Bird.

When the Spurs are finished polishing off Cleveland, Duncan will not only eclipse Bird's three rings, he will join Magic and Michael as the only leading men with more than three championships with the same franchise since Bill Russell. Four decades after Russell, Duncan would join a class of three.

When the Cavaliers' nice, little run is done, Duncan will be 4-0 in the Finals, leaving him two short of Michael's perfect 6-0 mark. And Duncan's team might have two more left in them after this season. Magic was 5-4 and Bird 3-2 on the game's grandest stage. Shaq is 4-2, has participated in six of the last 13 Finals and is the only player in league history to lead three different franchises to championship series.

But San Antonio winning will give Duncan as many titles as Shaq. Many observers believe this fact vaults Duncan past O'Neal as the greatest player of his generation. That might be a bit much, given that only two players in NBA history have better winning percentages than the teams O'Neal has played on: Magic and Bill Russell, considered the greatest winners of their respective eras.

But it would put Duncan on par with Shaq. Given that he has more tread on his tires left than the big fella, it's not hard to envision the 31-year-old Duncan leading the Spurs to at least two more Finals.

While Cleveland is deservedly being celebrated for slaying the Philistines from Detroit, Duncan led the Spurs out of a Western Conference very few believed they could navigate at the beginning of the season.

After Dallas beat them in Game 7 of the semifinals in San Antonio a year ago, the Spurs and their star were viewed as that old, creaky team spiraling downward. No way they were supposed to get by Phoenix when Amare Stoudemire was healthy. No way anyone would stand in Dallas's path to a title it should have won a year ago.

Before the playoffs began, the Spurs were generally thought of as no better than the third-best team in the West behind the Suns and Mavericks. Their style was thought of as too plodding and predictable to stay with Steve Nash and Shawn Marion and Jason Terry and Josh Howard in the open court.

The perception of Duncan mirrored his team; he was coming off a season in which his body was breaking down and there were simply too many quick, young big men to rise up over.

As usual, his detractors missed the importance of Duncan. His game has never been about explosiveness; it's about efficiency. His degree of difficulty has nothing to do with hang time and more to do with angles and trajectory, all the skill-level amenities missing from contemporary front-court players.

Even his position — a center-power forward hybrid — prevents flat-out comparisons to other great pivots. Kevin McHale and Karl Malone are all-time greats on the blocks, but McHale played with Bird and Robert Parish in his prime, as did Malone with John Stockton. David Robinson was winding down when Duncan joined the Spurs.

Drama is at a premium for Duncan, too; he's had the same coach, Gregg Popovich, his entire career. Often expressionless and unemotional since his days at Wake Forest, where the Duke student section referred to him as "Spock," there is a monotony to the way Duncan plays and carries himself that doesn't resonate in a culture run by celebrity.

He gets penalized for consistently playing and living between the lines while so many of his look-at-me peers obliterate the boundaries and become more popular for it. Polarization sells; professionalism is so '90s.

That's how the guy who kept his head down, motored forward and did nothing but win and put up numbers — while silencing the conversation about him and his team being too old — is cast as the black hat next to the young, fresh gun in the NBA Finals. That's why Tim Duncan's journey to scaling Shaq as the most important player of his generation is nothing more than a subplot going in.

LeBron James reinvigorates the "Next Michael" debate after a sterling week of basketball. Meanwhile, if anyone wanted to look long and hard, Tim Duncan belongs at the top of that class more than Kobe, more than Dwyane Wade and certainly more than LeBron. More than any of them, he's won at a higher level.

[Thunder Dan]

Championship wise Duncan is the next Jordan. But being "Jordan" isn't all about winning championships. What Jordan did was make fans excited about the NBA. Lebron is doing that. He is a very good player, and probably will become a great player, but he is the reason people outside of San Antonio and Cleveland will watch the finals. The people are watching for Lebron not Tim Duncan, so in that aspect he is doing just what Jordan did. Plus, he is only 22, give him a break.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I saw this one posted a while back already

[ATRAIN]

Championship wise Duncan is the next Jordan. But being "Jordan" isn't all about winning championships. What Jordan did was make fans excited about the NBA. Lebron is doing that. He is a very good player, and probably will become a great player, but he is the reason people outside of San Antonio and Cleveland will watch the finals. The people are watching for Lebron not Tim Duncan, so in that aspect he is doing just what Jordan did. Plus, he is only 22, give him a break.


Hey Dan.......here we are again :). Yeah I agree, I am happy the Cavs made the finals for this reason.......he is a draw. Yes even though duncan might possibly be the best player we have seen at his position in the last 10 years or even all time, he isnt a draw. Yes its amazing that he is this good at 22..shit it was amazing what he was doing at 18 in high school. I was excited to see this guy in the league. As far as the "JORDAN" comparison, I frankly am tired of them. They say that about every stud that comes in the league. To honest I dont think we will ever see anyone like Jordan. He was who he was and isnt fair to him or the players he is compared too.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Lol

[Thunder Dan]

Hey Dan.......here we are again :). Yeah I agree, I am happy the Cavs made the finals for this reason.......he is a draw. Yes even though duncan might possibly be the best player we have seen at his position in the last 10 years or even all time, he isnt a draw. Yes its amazing that he is this good at 22..shit it was amazing what he was doing at 18 in high school. I was excited to see this guy in the league. As far as the "JORDAN" comparison, I frankly am tired of them. They say that about every stud that comes in the league. To honest I dont think we will ever see anyone like Jordan. He was who he was and isnt fair to him or the players he is compared too.

well saying your the next Jordan is just saying you have the abilities to be the best, which he could. But to actually be the next Jordan you have to be the best, and be lucky. I mean winning 3 in a row on two different occasions is amazing, even for Jordan, but don't think that there was some luck factored into that. If Jordan got drafted by a team with a shitty front office (like say the Bullets) I don't think he wins three in a row in the early 90's. But, no matter what, your judged by your play and championships.

[duncan228]

I saw this one posted a while back already

:oops

Sorry. I looked back several pages and didn't see it.
It's tough with search off.

Someone can delete/merge if needed.

[Obstructed_View]

Shaq is 4-2, has participated in six of the last 13 Finals and is the only player in league history to lead three different franchises to championship series.
I'm no great fan of Shaq, but that's a heck of an accomplishment.

[BWJACKETS]

I high-lighted in this one, I couldn't help myself!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19039734/

Forget LeBron, Duncan is real heir to Jordan

Spurs star isn’t flashy, explosive, but is game’s ultimate winner — like Mike

OPINION
By Mike Wise

Now that LeBron James has become ABC's savior of the NBA Finals — and LeBron says he is honored to be compared with Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson and Gandhi — we interrupt this homeroom crush for some genuine education.

The San Antonio Spurs are going to school Cleveland and win their fourth title, in six games or fewer, because they have the best player on the floor in the series. Tim Duncan, despite getting less love than jury duty, is maybe the largest difference-maker since Michael Jordan. Shaquille O'Neal is the only other big man who's won more from Duncan's generation.

It's nice that LeBron has evolved so quickly, overtaking Carmelo Anthony and Dwyane Wade from his draft class. But filling Kobe's excitement void from the playoffs is not the same as being on the verge of winning more titles than Larry Bird.

When the Spurs are finished polishing off Cleveland, Duncan will not only eclipse Bird's three rings, he will join Magic and Michael as the only leading men with more than three championships with the same franchise since Bill Russell. Four decades after Russell, Duncan would join a class of three.

When the Cavaliers' nice, little run is done, Duncan will be 4-0 in the Finals, leaving him two short of Michael's perfect 6-0 mark. And Duncan's team might have two more left in them after this season. Magic was 5-4 and Bird 3-2 on the game's grandest stage. Shaq is 4-2, has participated in six of the last 13 Finals and is the only player in league history to lead three different franchises to championship series.

But San Antonio winning will give Duncan as many titles as Shaq. Many observers believe this fact vaults Duncan past O'Neal as the greatest player of his generation. That might be a bit much, given that only two players in NBA history have better winning percentages than the teams O'Neal has played on: Magic and Bill Russell, considered the greatest winners of their respective eras.

But it would put Duncan on par with Shaq. Given that he has more tread on his tires left than the big fella, it's not hard to envision the 31-year-old Duncan leading the Spurs to at least two more Finals.

While Cleveland is deservedly being celebrated for slaying the Philistines from Detroit, Duncan led the Spurs out of a Western Conference very few believed they could navigate at the beginning of the season.

After Dallas beat them in Game 7 of the semifinals in San Antonio a year ago, the Spurs and their star were viewed as that old, creaky team spiraling downward. No way they were supposed to get by Phoenix when Amare Stoudemire was healthy. No way anyone would stand in Dallas's path to a title it should have won a year ago.

Before the playoffs began, the Spurs were generally thought of as no better than the third-best team in the West behind the Suns and Mavericks. Their style was thought of as too plodding and predictable to stay with Steve Nash and Shawn Marion and Jason Terry and Josh Howard in the open court.

The perception of Duncan mirrored his team; he was coming off a season in which his body was breaking down and there were simply too many quick, young big men to rise up over.

As usual, his detractors missed the importance of Duncan. His game has never been about explosiveness; it's about efficiency. His degree of difficulty has nothing to do with hang time and more to do with angles and trajectory, all the skill-level amenities missing from contemporary front-court players.

Even his position — a center-power forward hybrid — prevents flat-out comparisons to other great pivots. Kevin McHale and Karl Malone are all-time greats on the blocks, but McHale played with Bird and Robert Parish in his prime, as did Malone with John Stockton. David Robinson was winding down when Duncan joined the Spurs.

Drama is at a premium for Duncan, too; he's had the same coach, Gregg Popovich, his entire career. Often expressionless and unemotional since his days at Wake Forest, where the Duke student section referred to him as "Spock," there is a monotony to the way Duncan plays and carries himself that doesn't resonate in a culture run by celebrity.

He gets penalized for consistently playing and living between the lines while so many of his look-at-me peers obliterate the boundaries and become more popular for it. Polarization sells; professionalism is so '90s.

That's how the guy who kept his head down, motored forward and did nothing but win and put up numbers — while silencing the conversation about him and his team being too old — is cast as the black hat next to the young, fresh gun in the NBA Finals. That's why Tim Duncan's journey to scaling Shaq as the most important player of his generation is nothing more than a subplot going in.

LeBron James reinvigorates the "Next Michael" debate after a sterling week of basketball. Meanwhile, if anyone wanted to look long and hard, Tim Duncan belongs at the top of that class more than Kobe, more than Dwyane Wade and certainly more than LeBron. More than any of them, he's won at a higher level.

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but I'm calling it right now, the Cavs will have an opprotunity in this series to close it out. The fact that the media once again has given them no chance makes me even more sure of it, San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started. Let's see what ya got, Lebron is ready to elevate his game again and he'll have the entire team ready for a fight.

[samikeyp]

San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started.

Proof please.

[duncan228]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but I'm calling it right now, the Cavs will have an opprotunity in this series to close it out. The fact that the media once again has given them no chance makes me even more sure of it, San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started. Let's see what ya got, Lebron is ready to elevate his game again and he'll have the entire team ready for a fight.

And you know this how?

[Obstructed_View]

San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started.
You'd better be praying that's the truth, because it's the only chance the Cavs have.

[ClingingMars]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but I'm calling it right now, the Cavs will have an opprotunity in this series to close it out. The fact that the media once again has given them no chance makes me even more sure of it, San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started. Let's see what ya got, Lebron is ready to elevate his game again and he'll have the entire team ready for a fight.

You are the biggest dumbass I have ever seen. What about Duncan's help BEFORE Manu and Tony arrived? Other than Robinson, who was there??

Absolutely disgusting.

-Mars

[samikeyp]

Neither are the next Jordan. There will never be another Jordan, but there is nothing wrong with that. I think its a safe bet to say their will never be another LeBron or Duncan as well. Both those guys will, however, be the next guys that future players are judged against.

[MadDog73]

Shaq is 4-2, has participated in six of the last 13 Finals and is the only player in league history to lead three different franchises to championship series.
Glad you posted this, even if it was done before, I missed this the first time:

Did Shaq really "lead" the Heat to the Championship? I think that's overstating a bit.

Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but Shaq has four rings, 3 MVPs.

IF Tim wins MVP again, he will have 4 Championship and 4 MVPs.

(and really, on two "different" teams, since the 1999 Spurs and 2005 Spurs where totally different teams).

[Thunder Dan]

Neither are the next Jordan. There will never be another Jordan, but there is nothing wrong with that. I think its a safe bet to say their will never be another LeBron or Duncan as well. Both those guys will, however, be the next guys that future players are judged against.

I agree. It's like the old theory that we will never see the "greatest rock band ever" No matter who does what, he will always be compaired to the fictonal and actual traits given to the ancestors. So no matter what Lebron does (even if he does turn out better than Jordan) he will not be given the credit Jordan has, becuase we compare him to Jordan.

It's like when your really into a girl (or guy if there are girls reading) and you love everything about her (or him), and they dump you. No matter who you date, for most of your life you will always compare them to that person.

[Obstructed_View]

You are the biggest dumbass I have ever seen. What about Duncan's help BEFORE Manu and Tony arrived? Other than Robinson, who was there??

Absolutely disgusting.

-Mars
The Cavs are going to have to really show something not to be considered the weakest Spurs opponent in ANY of their championship runs. On paper they are by far the worst team.

[Leetonidas]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap.

Wow, you need to get off this forum. That was the stupidest post I've ever read in my life. If anything LeBron can't hold Duncan's jock strap. Let's not forget that LeBron plays in the East where being below .500 is good enough to make the playoffs.

[Obstructed_View]

Glad you posted this, even if it was done before, I missed this the first time:

Did Shaq really "lead" the Heat to the Championship? I think that's overstating a bit.

Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but Shaq has four rings, 3 MVPs.

IF Tim wins MVP again, he will have 4 Championship and 4 MVPs.

(and really, on two "different" teams, since the 1999 Spurs and 2005 Spurs where totally different teams).
You don't actually think the Heat get to the finals without Shaq, do you? Is it a coincidence that the guard who plays on the same team as Shaq is considered one of the top slasher/scorers in the league?

[OldDirtMcGirt]

What's with the all these "heirs" to Jordan? Kobe, Wade, LeBron, and now Duncan. Has MJ become the Shawn Kemp of retarded and unnecessary media comparisons?

[CTownSnake]

Wouldn't a more apt comparison for Duncan be Chamberlain or Kareem?

I mean statistically, Timmeh couldn't hold Wilt's jock, and Tim doesn't yet have 6 rings like Kareem...

But Tim isn't a perimeter player either.



and nobody compares to Russell

[samikeyp]

and nobody compares to Russell

Very true.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I honestly think that Wilt is better than Russel. But I seem to be in the minority.

[myhc]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but I'm calling it right now, the Cavs will have an opprotunity in this series to close it out. The fact that the media once again has given them no chance makes me even more sure of it, San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started. Let's see what ya got, Lebron is ready to elevate his game again and he'll have the entire team ready for a fight.

Duncan has also never had the opportunity to go through that juggernaut that was the eastern conference playoffs this year. As for your super secret "behind the scenes" knowledge that the Spurs players are taking the Cavs lightly, I can only conclude that your stupidity knows no bounds.

[Vito Corleone]

The next Jordan is actually in the NFL and plays QB for the Tennessee Titans.

[Thunder Dan]

let's all remember though, as much hype as he gets, he still is just 22. He has 13-14 more years in the leauge to either do things to become legondary, or to be average. I don't think it's fair to see people say "he isn't as good a Jordan" when Jordan wasn't even in the league when James was. It's also not fair to say "He is Jordan (or better)" becuase he has not done what Jordan did achievement wise thus far.

I also laugh at fans of any team that knock on him, when there probably isn't a player on whatever team you root for you wouldn't trade tomorrow if you could get Lebron. And I know there will be people bashing me and say they would never trade Duncan, or Nash, but remember Lebron is 8 years younger than Duncan and 11 years younger than Nash. Thats 8 and 11 more years in the league for any GM to look at.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

The next Jordan is actually in the NFL and plays QB for the Tennessee Titans.

I always thought that Jordan was pretty accurate.

[Obstructed_View]

I honestly think that Wilt is better than Russel. But I seem to be in the minority.
Yeah, that whole head to head thing is kind of hard to defend.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Yeah, that whole head to head thing is kind of hard to defend.

But those Celtic teams at one point had five hall of famers and a hall of fame coach. What Wilt did was absolutely insane. It's mind bending to look at what he accomplished during his career, including a pair of rings.

[Vito Corleone]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but I'm calling it right now, the Cavs will have an opprotunity in this series to close it out. The fact that the media once again has given them no chance makes me even more sure of it, San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started. Let's see what ya got, Lebron is ready to elevate his game again and he'll have the entire team ready for a fight.

Lets look back a bit at some of the greatest teams in NBA history. The Celts of the 50-60 had a whole team of guys that made it to the HOF. The Lakers of the 60-70's had 3 or 4 HOF on their roster. The Lakers of the 80s had Magic, Kareem. The Celts had Bird, McHale. The Bulls Jordan/Pippen. The rockets had Hakeem and Drexler and Horry. The Lakers this decade had Shaq and Kobe. The Spurs for their first two championships had Duncan and Robinson. Right now all the Spurs have is Duncan. There is no one else that is considered an elite player on this roster. Parker is good but not a elite PG, Manu is a great player but will probably be remembered for his international play more than what he did in the NBA.

Don't kid yourself, Duncan has carried this team more than any champion has had to carry their team. Now I can add Lebron to this if he wins the championship but right now he is not a champion like Duncan.

[Obstructed_View]

But those Celtic teams at one point had five hall of famers and a hall of fame coach. What Wilt did was absolutely insane. It's mind bending to look at what he accomplished during his career, including a pair of rings.
Bird had more hall of famers than Magic did, but only won once.

[CTownSnake]

But those Celtic teams at one point had five hall of famers and a hall of fame coach. What Wilt did was absolutely insane. It's mind bending to look at what he accomplished during his career, including a pair of rings.Would you argue that Nash is a better player than Duncan?


Neither would I.
Rings mean a lot when comparing entire careers.

[Vito Corleone]

I always thought that Jordan was pretty accurate.

As a rookie VY completed a higher percentage of his passes than Jordan ever shot, so I guess you might be wrong. Even in his last year at Texas he lead the nation in passing efficiency going into the Rose Bowl.

[Thunder Dan]

As a rookie VY completed a higher percentage of his passes than Jordan ever shot, so I guess you might be wrong. Even in his last year at Texas he lead the nation in passing efficiency going into the Rose Bowl.


Vince is going to be nothing this year. He has the Madden curse, we will have to wait till 2008 before he sets the world back on fire.

[Extra Stout]

Would you argue that Nash is a better player than Duncan?


Neither would I.
Rings mean a lot when comparing entire careers.
I wouldn't argue that Nash is better than Duncan even if neither one had rings.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Would you argue that Nash is a better player than Duncan?


Neither would I.
Rings mean a lot when comparing entire careers.

Well even without the rings Duncan is indisputably better than Nash because of his impact defensively, and his consistency.

Rings definitely mean alot, but I don't put much into having a ton of rings. It isn't as if Wilt hasn't won anything.

[easjer]

let's all remember though, as much hype as he gets, he still is just 22. He has 13-14 more years in the leauge to either do things to become legondary, or to be average. I don't think it's fair to see people say "he isn't as good a Jordan" when Jordan wasn't even in the league when James was. It's also not fair to say "He is Jordan (or better)" becuase he has not done what Jordan did achievement wise thus far.

I also laugh at fans of any team that knock on him, when there probably isn't a player on whatever team you root for you wouldn't trade tomorrow if you could get Lebron. And I know there will be people bashing me and say they would never trade Duncan, or Nash, but remember Lebron is 8 years younger than Duncan and 11 years younger than Nash. Thats 8 and 11 more years in the league for any GM to look at.

Not to be a downer or rain on your parade or anything . . .

But he might not have that much time left. Age is not the only indicator. Playing time is a better one. Hearing from folks today who left college or entered out of highschool - they are more broken down than their peers of similar ages because of the length of the NBA season (and post season, if they are on a good team). College players play a long time, BUT their seasons and preps are much shorter and require less physically. Additionally, those players with great efficiency and a high BB IQ are better prepared to play for a longer period of time because they do not have to rely on athleticism to carry them.

I do think LeBron will be around for a good long while, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that to assume he'll still be playing in 10+ years anywhere near the level that's he's at now simply because he's only 22 is foolish. I worry about the same thing with Tony Parker, given the hits he takes on a nightly basis - that speed won't be around forever, and he's been playing professionally for, what, 9, 10 years now? It breaks your body down. You can see the toll that this play has had on Manu over the last year.

And whether or not you would take LeBron would depend on what other assets you have or might have. I wouldn't trade Duncan for LeBron in a heartbeat. You have to weigh out a lot in those kind of scenarios - not just age, but also salary and positions and the availability of certain types of players. You clearly need a second scorer with LeBron and a dominant big man would take you really far. Can you afford that if you take LeBron? It's always about calculation.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

didn't robert horry play on 3 different teams that won or at least played in the championship? (rockets lakers, spurs)

the article says o'neal was the only one to do that unless they meant the only go to guy

[judaspriestess]

Championship wise Duncan is the next Jordan. But being "Jordan" isn't all about winning championships. What Jordan did was make fans excited about the NBA. Lebron is doing that. He is a very good player, and probably will become a great player, but he is the reason people outside of San Antonio and Cleveland will watch the finals. The people are watching for Lebron not Tim Duncan, so in that aspect he is doing just what Jordan did. Plus, he is only 22, give him a break.

you are right in some respects but what this writer is doing is looking at what Tim Duncan has to offer. In essence he is giving Tim Duncan "a break", whats the problem? Lebra already has tons of exposure.

[easjer]

didn't robert horry play on 3 different teams that won or at least played in the championship? (rockets lakers, spurs)

the article says o'neal was the only one to do that unless they meant the only go to guy


Yeah, they referred to Shaq as 'leading' three separate teams to the playoffs. There is some argument about how much leading he did with Miami and I've heard people make that argument about Orlando as well, but can't speak to it.

[Extra Stout]

But those Celtic teams at one point had five hall of famers and a hall of fame coach. What Wilt did was absolutely insane. It's mind bending to look at what he accomplished during his career, including a pair of rings.
I think one of those Celtic teams had as many as seven HOFers on the roster at once.

1962-63
Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Bob Cousy
John Havlicek
Frank Ramsey
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones

[MadDog73]

Yeah, they referred to Shaq as 'leading' three separate teams to the playoffs. There is some argument about how much leading he did with Miami and I've heard people make that argument about Orlando as well, but can't speak to it.


IMO, you're not "leading" if you don't get MVP.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, they referred to Shaq as 'leading' three separate teams to the playoffs. There is some argument about how much leading he did with Miami and I've heard people make that argument about Orlando as well, but can't speak to it.
Shaq was the rightful league MVP his first year in Miami and won a ring in his second. I think any discussion of whether or not he "led" the team is semantics. Horry's teams probably would have gotten to the Finals without him. None of Shaq's teams would have.

[Thunder Dan]

Not to be a downer or rain on your parade or anything . . .

But he might not have that much time left. Age is not the only indicator. Playing time is a better one. Hearing from folks today who left college or entered out of highschool - they are more broken down than their peers of similar ages because of the length of the NBA season (and post season, if they are on a good team). College players play a long time, BUT their seasons and preps are much shorter and require less physically. Additionally, those players with great efficiency and a high BB IQ are better prepared to play for a longer period of time because they do not have to rely on athleticism to carry them.

I do think LeBron will be around for a good long while, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that to assume he'll still be playing in 10+ years anywhere near the level that's he's at now simply because he's only 22 is foolish. I worry about the same thing with Tony Parker, given the hits he takes on a nightly basis - that speed won't be around forever, and he's been playing professionally for, what, 9, 10 years now? It breaks your body down. You can see the toll that this play has had on Manu over the last year.

And whether or not you would take LeBron would depend on what other assets you have or might have. I wouldn't trade Duncan for LeBron in a heartbeat. You have to weigh out a lot in those kind of scenarios - not just age, but also salary and positions and the availability of certain types of players. You clearly need a second scorer with LeBron and a dominant big man would take you really far. Can you afford that if you take LeBron? It's always about calculation.



I agree with you but the trade I was refering to right here right now. Lebron has a small contract compared to other stars, he is a team player, and he has as much potential as anyone who has ever played in the NBA. Now there is nothing to say that all of those factors won't change, and you wouldnt take him as a forward and trade your center and point guard to get him, I agree with you. But of the people calling him overrated, there isn't one that wouldn't welcome him on their team.

[Obstructed_View]

But of the people calling him overrated, there isn't one that wouldn't welcome him on their team.
Calling him the best player in the NBA because he had one good game against a team playing terrible defense is overrating him. Sorry. He's an amazing player and I think he's awesome. People are overrating him.

[Thunder Dan]

Calling him the best player in the NBA because he had one good game against a team playing terrible defense is overrating him. Sorry. He's an amazing player and I think he's awesome. People are overrating him.

Much of the praise to Lebron last series was his work on defense. During most of the year his defense was terrible, but he did not play bad on the defensive side of the ball last series. I'm not sure what series your talking about. And if dropping 48 is the only way in your book to "have a good game" than Duncan isn't much of a player. There is more to basketball than how many points you put up.

And I never said he was the best player in the NBA, I said he has the potential to be the best player in the NBA (which I don't even know if I ever wrote that, but thats how I feel)

[Obstructed_View]

Much of the praise to Lebron last series was his work on defense.
Oh fucking bullshit. Even you aren't stupid enough to believe that. Nobody was talking about anything other than he didn't have the Goddamn balls to take a shot at the end of a game. The fact is nobody gave a shit about him or the Cavs until that scoring run in game five, and now he's suddenly the heir apparent to Jordan again.

[Thunder Dan]

Oh fucking bullshit. Even you aren't stupid enough to believe that. Nobody was talking about anything other than he didn't have the Goddamn balls to take a shot at the end of a game. The fact is nobody gave a shit about him or the Cavs until that scoring run in game five, and now he's suddenly the heir apparent to Jordan again.


so the 32 point 9 boards and 9 dime game in game 3 was just a fluke? shit if that was a fluke it's pretty amazing. He also had a 25 point night with 11 boards and 7 assests in game 4. Now, if you actually watched these games (which I'm having doubts) you would remember he hit clutch shots near the end of both (one being a tough jumper outside the key, and the other was 2 free throws) I guess that there is no credit to defense when Tayshawn Prince shoots under 35% from field goal range in a 7 game series. Man, thats amazing you can't give him credit for anything


Looks like he is the first player to make 3 concesutive All-Star games on sheer luck

[Obstructed_View]

so the 32 point 9 boards and 9 dime game in game 3 was just a fluke? shit if that was a fluke it's pretty amazing. He also had a 25 point night with 11 boards and 7 assests in game 4. Now, if you actually watched these games (which I'm having doubts) you would remember he hit clutch shots near the end of both (one being a tough jumper outside the key, and the other was 2 free throws) I guess that there is no credit to defense when Tayshawn Prince shoots under 35% from field goal range in a 7 game series. Man, thats amazing you can't give him credit for anything


Looks like he is the first player to make 3 concesutive All-Star games on sheer luck
I know what he does. Check my history; I've been one of the guys defending him on this board for years. He's a great player. I'm convinced of that. But don't tell me that the national media was praising him before game five. The questions were always about if he was clutch or if he was even willing to take the shot, despite the fact that his pass to Donyell wasn't a bad play. The national media collectively dropped to their knees and unzipped his fly when he went for 48. Again, don't act like you don't know that.

[Thunder Dan]

I know what he does. Check my history; I've been one of the guys defending him on this board for years. He's a great player. I'm convinced of that. But don't tell me that the national media was praising him before game five. The questions were always about if he was clutch or if he was even willing to take the shot, despite the fact that his pass to Donyell wasn't a bad play. The national media collectively dropped to their knees and unzipped his fly when he went for 48. Again, don't act like you don't know that.


Rewind your tape. They praised him after game 3, praised him ALOT after making those 2 clutch free throws in game 4, then sucked him off after game 5.

[O-Factor]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but I'm calling it right now, the Cavs will have an opprotunity in this series to close it out. The fact that the media once again has given them no chance makes me even more sure of it, San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started. Let's see what ya got, Lebron is ready to elevate his game again and he'll have the entire team ready for a fight.

So you are admitting the spurs have a better back court, but will still lose. What a stupid fuck you are, Lol. Typical cavs fan. All hype, no substance. lebron will never accomplish what Duncan has, thats pretty much a fact! Come game five I will be celebrating a fourth championship and you'll still be sucking lebrons cock...

[O-Factor]

so the 32 point 9 boards and 9 dime game in game 3 was just a fluke? shit if that was a fluke it's pretty amazing. He also had a 25 point night with 11 boards and 7 assests in game 4. Now, if you actually watched these games (which I'm having doubts) you would remember he hit clutch shots near the end of both (one being a tough jumper outside the key, and the other was 2 free throws) I guess that there is no credit to defense when Tayshawn Prince shoots under 35% from field goal range in a 7 game series. Man, thats amazing you can't give him credit for anything


Looks like he is the first player to make 3 concesutive All-Star games on sheer luck


Yeah, you pretty much hit it on the mark...simply luck.

[Obstructed_View]

Rewind your tape. They praised him after game 3, praised him ALOT after making those 2 clutch free throws in game 4, then sucked him off after game 5.
Not talking about cleveland media, dude. The questions from game three died down a little after game 4, but nobody was talking about him as the next Jordan until game five. You simply cannot be this stupid.

[Saguaro]

Duncan isn't the heir to anything. Nobody cares about Duncan and nobody will remember as anything but the leader of Team Cheap Shot.

[z0sa]

Horry's teams probably would have gotten to the Finals without him.

I beg to differ.

[duncan228]

Duncan isn't the heir to anything. Nobody cares about Duncan and nobody will remember as anything but the leader of Team Cheap Shot.

:flipoff
Try opening your eyes.
Read some of the threads here on Duncan.

Fuck, even non Spurs fans appreciate Duncan.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but I'm calling it right now, the Cavs will have an opprotunity in this series to close it out. The fact that the media once again has given them no chance makes me even more sure of it, San Antonio fans (and behind the scenes, players also) are already ready to proclaim themselves champions before the series has started. Let's see what ya got, Lebron is ready to elevate his game again and he'll have the entire team ready for a fight.

I not only disagree with your statement about Duncan but I believe you won't show up in this site after the spurs close out the cavs in 4, 5 or 6 games.
Duncan never had another big star next to him other than Robinson (what you would call a big start - I do believe Manu is a big star but he wouldn't fall in your NBA feeding parameters).

Shaq had Kobe, Magic had 2 more stars, Jordan had 2 more stars.

Now what you are saying literally is that if Lebron had manu and TP playing with him in Cleveland, they would win championships each year. That really contradicts what you've been saying all along about how bad are these two and how good is your cavs role players. I mean, make up your mind or just shut up.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

let's all remember though, as much hype as he gets, he still is just 22. He has 13-14 more years in the leauge to either do things to become legondary, or to be average. I don't think it's fair to see people say "he isn't as good a Jordan" when Jordan wasn't even in the league when James was. It's also not fair to say "He is Jordan (or better)" becuase he has not done what Jordan did achievement wise thus far.

I also laugh at fans of any team that knock on him, when there probably isn't a player on whatever team you root for you wouldn't trade tomorrow if you could get Lebron. And I know there will be people bashing me and say they would never trade Duncan, or Nash, but remember Lebron is 8 years younger than Duncan and 11 years younger than Nash. Thats 8 and 11 more years in the league for any GM to look at.

I would not imagine Lebron playing for the spurs under the current ownership and coaching team. He is the "I" guy, period. Like it or not. After game 5 he literally said to reporters that "he had to carry the team and make the effort". That's pretty self explanatory. You don't see that kind of statements from TD or Manu or TP regardless of whether they know in their innerselves they owned the game and bailed everybody else out. Just for that particular reason, I don't think LBJ would be a good fit for the spurs team if that possibility ever existed under these current circumstances.

[Thunder Dan]

What Lebron has done thus far in his career is amazing, considering where this franchise was when they drafted him. He has played well all season, and he lead his teams to the Finals, that much is obvious. However, what the Spurs fans are missing is this is not a failure for Lebron if he loses (which the Cavs probably will) this series becuase right now this team is way ahead of schedule, and still has many glaring needs. (Eric Snow is their point guard)

[Thunder Dan]

I would not imagine Lebron playing for the spurs under the current ownership and coaching team. He is the "I" guy, period. Like it or not. After game 5 he literally said to reporters that "he had to carry the team and make the effort". That's pretty self explanatory. You don't see that kind of statements from TD or Manu or TP regardless of whether they know in their innerselves they owned the game and bailed everybody else out. Just for that particular reason, I don't think LBJ would be a good fit for the spurs team if that possibility ever existed under these current circumstances.


he only said "I" becuase veryone else on the team is somewhere between shit and decent. The fact is he wouldnt have to say that in SA b/c he wouldn't have to score 29 our of 30 points in SA to win a game. He wasn't lying when he said "I", he actually did that himself

[Duff McCartney]

Honestly, all I have to say in response is that if Lebron had San Antonio's backcourt they would win the championship every year. Duncan is a great post player but he couldn't hold Lebron's jock strap, Duncan has never been on an average team and carried them the way Lebron has.

Are you kidding me? He carred the 2001 Spurs team to 58 wins in a stacked Western Conference with the likes of the Blazers, Lakers, Kings, Mavericks and Suns all winning more than 50 games.

That 01 team featured the likes of Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, Steve Smith and Derek Anderson. You can't tell me that Tim Duncan didn't carry that team to the WCF.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

What Lebron has done thus far in his career is amazing, considering where this franchise was when they drafted him. He has played well all season, and he lead his teams to the Finals, that much is obvious. However, what the Spurs fans are missing is this is not a failure for Lebron if he loses (which the Cavs probably will) this series becuase right now this team is way ahead of schedule, and still has many glaring needs. (Eric Snow is their point guard)

They need to get a high profile PG next season. The day TD leaves and the spurs start playing badly, then I can see the Cavs with few changes being a good title contender provided LBJ is still around. I think the Cavs have done a great thing the past 2-3 years and it shows. If they are in the NBA finals representing the East is because they are good enough to represent the East, not so sure to win it all. I still believe the East is weak compared to the West where if you are .5 you don't qualify for play offs.

[MadDog73]

Now what you are saying literally is that if Lebron had manu and TP playing with him in Cleveland, they would win championships each year. That really contradicts what you've been saying all along about how bad are these two and how good is your cavs role players. I mean, make up your mind or just shut up.


waiting for BWJACKETS response.

[duncan228]

waiting for BWJACKETS response.

Maybe he'll realize it's pointless and leave.

One can only hope.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

waiting for BWJACKETS response.

Me too, althought I don't think he will fix what he did wrong. You can find contradictions all over his posts. He goes with the wind when he faces adversity. The kid needs to watch more basketball first.

Cavs game 5 against the Nets - 3 of 17 shots made in the 4th quarter. Worst quarter in the NBA history.

[Thunder Dan]

They need to get a high profile PG next season. The day TD leaves and the spurs start playing badly, then I can see the Cavs with few changes being a good title contender provided LBJ is still around. I think the Cavs have done a great thing the past 2-3 years and it shows. If they are in the NBA finals representing the East is because they are good enough to represent the East, not so sure to win it all. I still believe the East is weak compared to the West where if you are .5 you don't qualify for play offs.
I don't disagree with that, but as a fan of a Eastern team all you can ask for is a shot to win a title. Anything can happen in a 7 game series, so it's not unreasonable to think that a team from the East can beat a team from the West, though the odds are against them. But atleast they are in the Finals with a shot to win a Championship; hell it beats playing golf with the Pistons and Bulls

[Obstructed_View]

I beg to differ.
Differ all you want. I said probably. None of Shaq's teams would have gotten a sniff of the finals without him.

[Thunder Dan]

Damon Jones actually looked worthy of a NBA uniform with Shaq on his team. Wait untill Thursday to see the Damon Jones without Shaq.

[duncan228]

None of Shaq's teams would have gotten a sniff of the finals without him.

I don't like Shaq and I agree with you.
He is an impact player to say the least.