Freakin' Sanctuary Cities!

[Yonivore]

165 Arrested In Immigration Sting (http://www.koin.com/Global/story.asp?S=6649875)


"I am angered by this morning's arrest by federal officers of approximately 150 Portland residents who were working at a local produce company. I certainly understand why federal officials executed criminal warrants against three individuals who stole and sold Social Security numbers. But to go after local workers who are here to support their families while filling the demands of local businesses for their labor is bad policy."
Duh! The "local" (read illegal immigrant) workers were in willfully and voluntarily in possession of stolen and fraudulent federal documents. They are criminals too! This is on top of being in this country illegally to begin with.

Fuck, these people need to get a clue.

[DarkReign]

Agree completely. This is the Mayor's stance on this issue?

Recount.

[xrayzebra]

If you live in San Antonio then you too live in a sanctuary city.
They just don't call it that. Police are not allowed to question
anyone about their citizenship status. It would hurt the police
in getting information about crime. Like it isn't a crime to be
here illegally. Of course they are registering and voting in
OUR elections. But that is okay, we shouldn't ask for ID to
register or vote. That would be racist. Horse hockey!

[George Gervin's Afro]

If you live in San Antonio then you too live in a sanctuary city.
They just don't call it that. Police are not allowed to question
anyone about their citizenship status. It would hurt the police
in getting information about crime. Like it isn't a crime to be
here illegally. Of course they are registering and voting in
OUR elections. But that is okay, we shouldn't ask for ID to
register or vote. That would be racist. Horse hockey!


Ray it's a federal problem. Why should city's do the fed's job?

[Yonivore]

Ray it's a federal problem. Why should city's do the fed's job?
Since when is crime just a federal problem?

Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting the SAPD shouldn't respond to bank alarms?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Since when is crime just a federal problem?

Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting the SAPD shouldn't respond to bank alarms?


checking someone's status in regards to citizenship is a bit different than a bank robbery correct? I didn't realize enforcing our federal immigration laws fell on to local police departments. my bad.

[Yonivore]

checking someone's status in regards to citizenship is a bit different than a bank robbery correct?
Not necessarily.

But, first of all, your analogy is set up all wrong. I believe you meant to say, "being in a country illegally is a bit different than bank robbery," right? Because, your way -- you're comparing the officer's act of checking to that of a criminal's act of robbing.

Anyway, to the point, yes, being in a country illegally can be as bad or worse than bank robbery. Checking a person's "status in regards to citizenship" can result in knowledge that prevents crimes, worse than bank robbery, from happening.


I didn't realize enforcing our federal immigration laws fell on to local police departments. my bad.
All laws can be enforced in an officer's area of jurisdiction.

Federal, state, and local laws (and ordinances) can be enforced by the San Antonio Police Department within the city limits or extra-territorial jurisdiction of San Antonio.

Federal and state but, not local laws (and ordinances) can be enforced by State Police officers in San Antonio.

And, finally, federal laws but not state or local laws (and ordinances) can be enforced by federal law enforcement officers.

See how that works? Those at the lowest jurisdictional level have the most authority when enforcing the law. That some cities have decided to ignore federal law and become "sanctuary" cities is an affront to the rule of law.

[xrayzebra]

Ray it's a federal problem. Why should city's do the fed's job?

Really, who pays the damn taxes? It is everyone's
problem, except yours.

I would love to see you at a movie lined up to get in
and let someone jumped the line. You would be :madrun
mad. Well think how the ones who are trying to do the
right thing. And how about the folks who have had their
identity stolen by the illegals. :dizzy

[AFE7FATMAN]

25 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens...

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.
http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such
as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school
education for children here illegally.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the
American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare &
social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused
by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two
and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their
children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the
United States.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens
that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens
from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth,
heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S. from the Southern border.
Homeland Security Report:
http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of
mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average
cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period."
http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to
their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes
Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States".
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

15. Every day 12 Americans are murdered by an illegal alien.
Another 13 Americans are killed by uninsured drunk illegal aliens and
Eight American Children are victims of a sex crime committed by an
illegal alien each day! (Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore.)
http://tinyurl.com/2ungbu

16. Today, criminal aliens account for over 29 percent of prisoners in
Federal Bureau of Prisons facilities and a higher share of all federal
prison inmates. These prisoners represent the fastest growing segment of
the federal prison population.
Incarceration of criminal aliens cost an estimated $624 million to state
prisons (1999) and $891 million to federal prisons (2002), according to
the most recent available figure from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
http://tinyurl.com/ahjkg

17. "Illegal Aliens and American Medicine". "Many illegal aliens harbor
fatal diseases that American Medicine fought and vanquished long ago,
such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio,
dengue and Chagas disease." The Journal of American Physicians and
Surgeons
http://www.jpands.org/jpands1001.htm

18. In 2002, HIV/AIDS was the third leading cause of death among
Hispanic men aged 35 to 44 and the fourth leading cause of death among
Hispanic women in the same age group. Most Hispanic men were exposed to
HIV through sexual contact with other men. Source (CDC):
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/hispanic.htm

19. If enacted the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (CIRA, S. 2611)
would be the most dramatic change in immigration law in 80 years,
allowing an estimated 103 million persons to legally immigrate to the
U.S. over the next 20 years -fully one-third of the current population
of the United States.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm

20. U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) today unveiled an impact analysis
that shows the Senate immigration bill -should it become law - would
permit up to 217.1 million new legal immigrants into the United States
over the next 20 years, a number equal to 66 percent of the total
current population.
http://tinyurl.com/3cawk3

21. The number of illegal immigrants in the United States may be as high
as 20 million people, more than double the official 9 million people
estimated by the Census Bureau. 1/3/05
http://tinyurl.com/2rxtwm

22. Cases of Leprosy on The Rise In The U.S., The New York Times. "While
there were some 900 recorded cases in the United States 40 years ago,
today more than 7,000 people have leprosy.." Leprosy is an airbourne
virus, it can also be spread by touching and coughing.
http://tinyurl.com/3bnukp

23. Organizations Protesting Immigration Reform, State by State.
Won't you join in?
http://www.oregonir.org/Immigration_Reform_Orgs.htm

24. America Welcomes Illegal's Contagious Disease.
http://www.rense.com/general64/ill.htm

25. Mexico is the 4th Richest Oil Nation in the World.
http://tinyurl.com/35qbap

Illegal Alien Fact Sheet - Updated: December 10, 2006
http://tinyurl.com/skyf4


Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens which
translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal
aliens
(Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa)

Thirteen Americans are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers for
another annual death toll of 4,745. That's 23,725 since Sept. 11,
2001.
(Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa)

Eight American children are victims of sexual abuse by illegal
aliens every day a total of 2,920 annually.
(Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa)

K-12 school expenditures for illegal aliens cost U.S. Taxpayers
$7.4 Billion a year
(US Rep.. Gary Miller)

Illegal aliens consume $3.7 Billion annually in Medicare and
Medicaid benefits since 40% of illegal aliens are on U.S. Welfare
(Federation for American Immigration Reform)

$1.6 billion is spent annually in prison costs to house, feed and
clothe illegal aliens who fill 32% of our federal and state prisons
(Fox News Channel O'Reilly Factor)

$10 billion dollars are sent back to Mexico annually by illegal
aliens (according to the Pew Hispanic Center), an amount which
now makes it Mexico's 2nd largest industry.

Leprosy, (Hansen's disease), was so rare in America that in 40
years only 900 people were afflicted. Suddenly, in the past three
years America has more than 7,000 cases of leprosy. Leprosy
now is endemic to northeastern states because illegal aliens and
other immigrants brought leprosy from India, Brazil, the
Caribbean, and Mexico
(Thomson American Health Consultants; 2003)

Tuberculosis was virtually absent in Virginia until in 2002, when
it spiked a 17% increase, but Prince William County, just south
of Washington, D.C., had a much larger rise of 188%.
(American Medical Association (JAMA) June 2005)

Illegal aliens make up 32% of State & Federal Prison populations
(FNC O'Reilly Factor)

There are an estimated 240,000 illegal alien sexual predators
currently in the USA
(Violent Crimes Institute - May 2006)

Over 1,000,000 sexual crimes are estimated to have been
committed in the USA over the past seven years by illegal aliens
(Violent Crimes Institute - May 2006)

90% of all crime in Brooks County Texas is committed by illegal
aliens
(Brooks County Sheriff's Department April 2006)

In the Jan/Feb of 2006, of the 120,000 illegals caught in the
Laredo sector, 2,500 of them were from the Middle East!!!

A large, but unknown, number of al Qaeda terrorists and Chinese
nationals are infiltrating our country virtually anywhere they
choose from Brownsville to San Diego. One al Qaeda terrorist
was held for several weeks after being captured on our border
and is currently under FBI custody.

A large number of Islamic individuals have moved into homes in
Nuevo Laredo and are being taught Spanish to assimilate into
the local culture.
--unbelievable!

Texas Border Sheriffs have found uniform patches from an elite
group of Islamic suicide bombers
(Verified by Israeli intelligence)

The rate of non-Mexican aliens (or OTMs) and special interest
aliens (or SIAs aliens from so-called countries of interest )
apprehended on the northern and southern borders has increased
from 30,147 in 2003 to 44,614 in 2004.
- Congressman Tom Tancredo

By June 30, 2004, the number of SIAs had swelled 42.5% to
6,022 from "Countries of Interest" such as those the State
Department considers sponsors of terrorism (Cuba, Iran, Libya,
North Korea, Sudan, Syria) and others where militant Islam
simmers (Afghanistan, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Jordan,
Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia,
and Yemen).
--Department of Homeland Security

yep it's a federal problem :madrun

[smeagol]

You guys are clueless.

Keep thinking you'll solve the problem by building walls or toughening the inmigration laws.

[Yonivore]

You guys are clueless.

Keep thinking you'll solve the problem by building walls or toughening the inmigration laws.
Isn't illegal border crossing way down in that area of San Diego where they built a wall?

Just needs to be a little longer...that's all.

[UV Ray]

...And how about the folks who have had their
identity stolen by the illegals. :dizzy

Navin: Yeah that's fine. We take Mastercharge. Do you want a fill up, Mrs. Neusebalm?

[Wild Cobra]

You guys are clueless.

Keep thinking you'll solve the problem by building walls or toughening the inmigration laws.
No we are not clueless. All the laws in the world do no good unless we enforce them.

Build the fences where we can and have 100% monitoring and rapid response border agents. Controlling the border will have a dramatic effect. Problem is, there is no political will. Yes, it is costly. Far cheaper however than the billions spent annually in social programs for illegals.

Every illegal worker broke the laws by being here. Employers who knowingly higher them should be dealt with harshly.

Most illegal workers buy forged document. This is a felony. I say very stiff sentence unless they help prosecute those who do the forging.

Those who supply these forged documents should be jailed for a long time when found.

[Wild Cobra]

From the linked KOIN article:


Portland Mayor Tom Potter says he's unhappy with how the raids were carried out.

There is great deal of hatred toward this Mayor. Many of us Portland residents believe the elections here are rigged. Some things pass during election time that have clear opposition shown by polls.

Anyway, I've been hearing some things about this on local talk radio. American Staffing Resources only hires for Del Monte in this area. It was reported that a representative from it's home office said if the what the news looks like is real, to prosecute it's employees to the full extent of the law!

The article fails to report a few findings:

1) The workers are working in illegal, unsafe condition.

2) They were paid below minimum wage.

3) Children were also among the workers found, violating children labor laws.

Mayor Tom Potter supports this!

I heard an interview on an American who went to work there the next day. Del Monte had no problems finding legal citizens to work these jobs we Americans don't want... They didn't even have to pay more. Del Monte was paying the labor agency $15.00 per hour per worker. The workers only were paid $7.00 per hour and Oregon's minimum wage is $7.80 per hour.

How many people will work for $15.00 per hour?

Jobs Americans don't want?

Bullshit!

[smeagol]

No we are not clueless. All the laws in the world do no good unless we enforce them.

Build the fences where we can and have 100% monitoring and rapid response border agents. Controlling the border will have a dramatic effect. Problem is, there is no political will. Yes, it is costly. Far cheaper however than the billions spent annually in social programs for illegals.

Every illegal worker broke the laws by being here. Employers who knowingly higher them should be dealt with harshly.

Most illegal workers buy forged document. This is a felony. I say very stiff sentence unless they help prosecute those who do the forging.

Those who supply these forged documents should be jailed for a long time when found.

Yes you are clueless.

As long as the US is as rich as it is (and Europe the same, for that matter, they have inmigration problems too), and the rest of the World is poor, desperate people were continue to try to get into the States for a shot at a better life.

[Yonivore]

Yes you are clueless.

As long as the US is as rich as it is (and Europe the same, for that matter, they have inmigration problems too), and the rest of the World is poor, desperate people were continue to try to get into the States for a shot at a better life.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to control it.

Hell, even during the greatest periods of immigration to America, we rounded them up on islands, innoculated them, did backgrounds, and -- if they didn't meet muster -- sent them back from whence they came or quarantined them until they died.

All the current amnesty proponents act like America has always just let people drift across its borders willy-nilly. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it wasn't until Democrats learned they could get these people into the polls on voting day that they became interested in their unfettered egress across our borders.

I'm not opposed to immigration. I'm opposed to illegal immigration.

[Yonivore]

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.

"But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here.

"Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.

"We have room for but one flag, the American flag.

"We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...
and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt, 1907

[smeagol]

I'm not opposed to immigration. I'm opposed to illegal immigration.

I'm also talking about illegal immigration.

It's like the famous war on drugs. You can pass the toughest laws in the land, spend billions of dollars trying to stop the drugs coming into America, through as many additcs/drug dealers in jail, but you are not going to solve the problem until you educate/cure the people/addicts in your own country.

You are trying to cure cancer with tylenol.

As long as there are drugs being consumed in America, there will be people smuggling drugs into America.

As long as there is a future in America, and no future, for many people, in their own countries, there will be illegal aliens in the USA.

I'm not against tougher immigration laws, all I'm saying is that it is not the solution.

[Yonivore]

I'm also talking about illegal immigration.

It's like the famous war on drugs. You can pass the toughest laws in the land, spend billions of dollars trying to stop the drugs coming into America, through as many additcs/drug dealers in jail, but you are not going to solve the problem until you educate/cure the people/addicts in your own country.

You are trying to cure cancer with tylenol.

As long as there are drugs being consumed in America, there will be people smuggling drugs into America.

As long as there is a future in America, and no future, for many people, in their own countries, there will be illegal aliens in the USA.

I'm not against tougher immigration laws, all I'm saying is that it is not the solution.
1) Secure the borders.

2) Imprison those who hire illegal immigrants.

3) Imprison those who manufacture fraudulent identification for illegal immigrants.

4) Unelect idiot politicians like the Mayor of Portland, Oregon.

5) Discontinue any entitlements to illegal immigrants.

6) Offer them a free ride back to Mexico.

They'll quit coming.

[boutons_]

What you law-and-order right-wing types NEVER understand is that laws are useless if people don't want to obey them.

[Phenomanul]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can equate the act of living here as a crime.... Whether people are citizens or not, we are all human beings. No one should be denied the right to live, the right to pursue a better life for themselves and their families. What ever happened to the ideals of liberty and freedom?

Americans have become rather greedy in their wealth and feel they are entitled to a many number of things. Those right below middle class being the greediest of all. As far as I'm concerned, if you work then you deserved to get paid. Why not point the finger to a more cumbersome sector of society instead of targeting hardworking migrant workers as our society's ill?

Point it towards goverment free-loaders, and lazy bums who abuse the system; most of them citizens. Where's all the outcry to get them off their butts into the workforce? Oh I see, it's OK for them to ride the well-fare dollar 'cause at least they're citizens.... Please, a true citizen is one who contributes to the functionality of their society. And as far as I know, most migrant workers do their part to contribute to our agricultural industry, and other odd-jobs at the bottom of the labor triangle.

As a side note, the well-fare state exists to help out people in true need. Time and time again, however, we find that the people who are ransacking such funds are dishonest people who are cheating the system, people who know all the loop-holes, and know exactly how to earn that 'easy' buck.

Honest people - those who truly need this aid - are dissuaded by the red-tape onslaught generated by our policies and rarely get the aid they require. It's a system in need of a massive reconstruction. I guess we won't ever get to see such a program until we can instate a full-proof lie-detector exam that will weed out the scammers.

As far as immigration being a legal or illegal issue however... that demarcation has always bothered me. Yes, some immigrants are true criminals in the proper sense of the word (as in they have a criminal track record). But that minority percentage <5% does not give us the right to condescendingly label all immigrants as criminals.

Criminals people... Criminals? Please.

I know if someone called me a criminal I would be enfuriated; I would be highly offended by the term.

When I think of criminals I think of murderers, rapists, thiefs, terrorists, drug dealers etc.... I'm sorry if the image of a mother trying to feed her children or that of a father working in the fields from sunrise to sundown in the hope of providing a better future for his children doesn't ellicit a similar response. According to you all, they are criminals nonetheless. Talk about debasing the meaning of the word.

Should they pay taxes... yeah. Should they pay their own medical expenses, of course... Oddly enough no one ever mentions the fact that if migrant workers were paid proper wages that maybe then they could afford to cover their own expenses. No one ever brings up the fact that people with fraudulent SSNs actually do pay Social Security Taxes even when most of them will have nothing to show for it. They aren't stealing people's identity as the article suggests, they are making up identities (an entirely different premise). Is this facade wrong in and of itself... of course, but they are at least working their tails off - doing the labor that you, myself or other American Citizens are not willing to do. Trying to paint it as something more enraging and illegal such as "identity theft" is baloney - but I guess it's OK to lie about it - afterall those making up the lies are LEGAL citizens.

Blame the employers for creating a void in the market that homeless or the lowest economic class in the U.S. don't want to fill. As long as that demand is there migrant workers will continue to come. "Berlin Wall" No. 2 is not the answer.

United States of America; Land of the Free, Home of the Brave**

**applies only to citizens, not people.

Borders are a problem when it comes to embracing humanity. Governments exist to manage the resources of the land for the good of the people (all people), not to create social rifts simply because someone wasn't fortunate enough to be born on this side of an imaginary line - a matter they obviously had no bearing in. Dependence on the government that's the true problem we need to eradicate.

[Yonivore]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can equate the act of living here as a crime...
Name one country where crossing the border illegally and setting up residence is not a crime.


Dependence on the government that's the true problem we need to eradicate.
Couldn't agree more.

[Phenomanul]

Name one country where crossing the border illegally and setting up residence is not a crime.


Propagating a selfish concept throughout world history doesn't make it right.

[smeagol]

1) Secure the borders.

2) Imprison those who hire illegal immigrants.

3) Imprison those who manufacture fraudulent identification for illegal immigrants.

4) Unelect idiot politicians like the Mayor of Portland, Oregon.

5) Discontinue any entitlements to illegal immigrants.

6) Offer them a free ride back to Mexico.

They'll quit coming.

Sure they will.

Just as the drugs stoped coming when tougher laws against drug trafficking were passed.

As I said, you are clueless.

[xrayzebra]

Sure they will.

Just as the drugs stoped coming when tougher laws against drug trafficking were passed.

As I said, you are clueless.

The difference in this case is that if you throw a few
employers in jail for hiring the illegals they will have no
source of income.

Now saying that, the dimm-o-craps want to find a way
to support them with government programs. But a lot
of states/cities already do. But just maybe the taxpayers
will finally get tired of that a throw a few of them out
of office.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes you are clueless.
If you say so.


As long as the US is as rich as it is (and Europe the same, for that matter, they have inmigration problems too), and the rest of the World is poor, desperate people were continue to try to get into the States for a shot at a better life.

Very true. I don't think anyone advocating the idea of controlling this illegal immigration disagree with that. The problem is that not enough is being done to control illegal immigration. If we could gat a handle on immigration, we could increase the number of legal immigration! Isn't it better to let the people who not only want to be here, but willing to do it the right way, have the first oppertunity?

What you law-and-order right-wing types NEVER understand is that laws are useless if people don't want to obey them.
Are you high? Many times laws are made because of circumstances that do not meet other peoples approval. Why should people attempt to obey laws that enforcement and penalties are so lax that it doesn't matter? People not caring about the laws is only one part of it. The other part is enforcing those laws. I simply want them enforced.

How many people on the road follow cars too close, go 5 MPH over the limit, or do other minor traffic infractions that never get attention by law enforcement. Do you believe that most people would continue to break these minor laws if the police actually stopped and wrote tickets every time? I believe most people would change their driving habits, and the fewer offenders would be more easily found, with less numbers of police.

A similar concept works with illegal immigration. Once you get serious about enforcement, the number of violations decrease dramatically.

Add that to more stringent proof for working and tamper-proof ID. If it is nearly impossible for them to go unnoticed, word will spread and the problems will stop. Like Yonivore said:

1) Secure the borders.

2) Imprison those who hire illegal immigrants.

3) Imprison those who manufacture fraudulent identification for illegal immigrants.

4) Unelect idiot politicians like the Mayor of Portland, Oregon.

5) Discontinue any entitlements to illegal immigrants.

6) Offer them a free ride back to Mexico.

They'll quit coming.

These are the same things I have been advocating myself.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can equate the act of living here as a crime....
If you don't like the laws, change them.

Whether people are citizens or not, we are all human beings. No one should be denied the right to live, the right to pursue a better life for themselves and their families.
OK, open the borders completely, allow everyone. I'll bet that China would import about a billion people to our shores then.

What ever happened to the ideals of liberty and freedom?
What ever happened to the rule of law?

Ever read the constitution, the parts about immigration?


Americans have become rather greedy in their wealth and feel they are entitled to a many number of things. Those right below middle class being the greediest of all. As far as I'm concerned, if you work then you deserved to get paid. Why not point the finger to a more cumbersome sector of society instead of targeting hardworking migrant workers as our society's ill?
When they are here without depressing wages, and use no social services, I'm fine with them here. As long as they pay their own way and remain lawful once here.


Point it towards goverment free-loaders, and lazy bums who abuse the system; most of them citizens. Where's all the outcry to get them off their butts into the workforce?
I am an advocate of placing them in these jobs that supposable Americans don't want. If they can work, and they don't work when employment is available, then cut them off.

Better yet, trade them one-for-one with the illegal aliens who do want to work!

How about that for an immigration idea?

Oh I see, it's OK for them to ride the well-fare dollar 'cause at least they're citizens.... Please, a true citizen is one who contributes to the functionality of their society.
They are hard working and many do support themselves. If they can support themselves and family, I really have no problem with them.

And as far as I know, most migrant workers do their part to contribute to our agricultural industry, and other odd-jobs at the bottom of the labor triangle.

One problem is just that. Before the first Amnesty in 1986, we had legal ways to accept migrant workers. We still do, but not the same as before. Very few of the illegals are really doing jobs that Americans don't want. We don't want the jobs at the wages paid. Supply and demand not only dictates the prices of goods, but the prices of wages too. The estimated 20 million (12 is a very old number) illegals is about 15% of our population. It dilutes what employers must pay for labor. If employers cannot find workers, they should increase the wages. Not increase the workforce, especially by those who disrespect our laws to work.

As for this "bottom of the labor triangle?" there are plenty of jobs the illegals work that use to be good paying jobs. Unscrupulous entrepreneurs have undercut the prevailing wages by hiring illegals who will work for have the price. Many businesses that have gone under have been for this reason.


As a side note, the well-fare state exists to help out people in true need. Time and time again, however, we find that the people who are ransacking such funds are dishonest people who are cheating the system, people who know all the loop-holes, and know exactly how to earn that 'easy' buck.
Agreed. I say find them and cut them off.


Honest people - those who truly need this aid - are dissuaded by the red-tape onslaught generated by our policies and rarely get the aid they require. It's a system in need of a massive reconstruction. I guess we won't ever get to see such a program until we can instate a full-proof lie-detector exam that will weed out the scammers.

We are at least in agreement on these issues.


As far as immigration being a legal or illegal issue however... that demarcation has always bothered me. Yes, some immigrants are true criminals in the proper sense of the word (as in they have a criminal track record). But that minority percentage <5% does not give us the right to condescendingly label all immigrants as criminals.
Nobody in their right mind is saying all immigration is illegal. It is the left that tries to spin the right's point of view that way. We are a nation of immigrants. The land of this nation is now rather well populated, and the days of letting anyone in are no more.


Criminals people... Criminals? Please.
There are a greater number percentage wise that are illegal. That wouldn't happen if we hade real border control.


I know if someone called me a criminal I would be enfuriated; I would be highly offended by the term.

So would I.

What would happen if you went to Canada some day, bought forged documents to work, and made a life one day. What would happen if the authorities there found out? Would they prosecute you for those crimes?


When I think of criminals I think of murderers, rapists, thiefs, terrorists, drug dealers etc.... I'm sorry if the image of a mother trying to feed her children or that of a father working in the fields from sunrise to sundown in the hope of providing a better future for his children doesn't ellicit a similar response. According to you all, they are criminals nonetheless. Talk about debasing the meaning of the word.

Get a clue. They are over-saturating our social systems and depressing wages. If we don't get a handle now, the common citizen will continue to get poorer year by year.


Should they pay taxes... yeah. Should they pay their own medical expenses, of course... Oddly enough no one ever mentions the fact that if migrant workers were paid proper wages that maybe then they could afford to cover their own expenses.
What's your solution? Raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour?

There will always be low wage jobs. Raise the floor, and the furniture sits higher too..

No one ever brings up the fact that people with fraudulent SSNs actually do pay Social Security Taxes even when most of them will have nothing to show for it.
Then they claim enough dependants on their W-4 and have no income taxes taken out. Then they get social services under another name, or two, or three. They already have illegal ID, why not? Our system, especially in a Sanctuary City like mine do not check to see if they are getting assistance under more than one name!

They aren't stealing people's identity as the article suggests, they are making up identities (an entirely different premise).
I heard something about some of the Social Security numbers being used reduced the benefits of the elderly, because the system shows then receiving an income. How true that is, I don't know, but it makes sense.

Is this facade wrong in and of itself... of course, but they are at least working their tails off - doing the labor that you, myself or other American Citizens are not willing to do. Trying to paint it as something more enraging and illegal such as "identity theft" is baloney - but I guess it's OK to lie about it - afterall those making up the lies are LEGAL citizens.

We make it easy for people to sit on their asses, and we make it easy for illegals to work. Make it a system of real verification, and both problems will be dramatically reduced.


Blame the employers for creating a void in the market that homeless or the lowest economic class in the U.S. don't want to fill. As long as that demand is there migrant workers will continue to come. "Berlin Wall" No. 2 is not the answer.

It sure is, but this is to keep people out. Not to keep our own people prisoners.

Poor comparison.


United States of America; Land of the Free, Home of the Brave**

**applies only to citizens, not people.

Until you allow uncontrolled levels of population increase.


Borders are a problem when it comes to embracing humanity. Governments exist to manage the resources of the land for the good of the people (all people), not to create social rifts simply because someone wasn't fortunate enough to be born on this side of an imaginary line - a matter they obviously had no bearing in.
It seems to me that the current un-enforced policies and the solutions in the senate are causing some rather stiff social rifts. Most the people want border control and tougher policies. Shouldn't our government listen, instead of trying to increase the cheap labor pool?

Dependence on the government that's the true problem we need to eradicate.

Again, I agree. The government is here to protect us, not to give away our sovereignty.

What would the demoncraps do if the people no longer needed social programs?

Keep one thing in mind. I live in this sanctuary city called Portland. Things are getting worse year by year.

My wife's wages have gone down from $15.00 per hour to $12.25 per hour over the last two years. She works for a cleaning service, and her boss has to compete against illegal aliens. He may loose his business, and she may lose her job if things keep going like they are.

[xrayzebra]

No problem: Bush to the rescue, with four billion dollars.http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/Geoonlifesupport.jpg

[Phenomanul]

If you say so.

Very true. I don't think anyone advocating the idea of controlling this illegal immigration disagree with that. The problem is that not enough is being done to control illegal immigration. If we could gat a handle on immigration, we could increase the number of legal immigration! Isn't it better to let the people who not only want to be here, but willing to do it the right way, have the first oppertunity?

Are you high? Many times laws are made because of circumstances that do not meet other peoples approval. Why should people attempt to obey laws that enforcement and penalties are so lax that it doesn't matter? People not caring about the laws is only one part of it. The other part is enforcing those laws. I simply want them enforced.

How many people on the road follow cars too close, go 5 MPH over the limit, or do other minor traffic infractions that never get attention by law enforcement. Do you believe that most people would continue to break these minor laws if the police actually stopped and wrote tickets every time? I believe most people would change their driving habits, and the fewer offenders would be more easily found, with less numbers of police.

A similar concept works with illegal immigration. Once you get serious about enforcement, the number of violations decrease dramatically.

Add that to more stringent proof for working and tamper-proof ID. If it is nearly impossible for them to go unnoticed, word will spread and the problems will stop. Like Yonivore said:

1) Secure the borders.

2) Imprison those who hire illegal immigrants.

3) Imprison those who manufacture fraudulent identification for illegal immigrants.

4) Unelect idiot politicians like the Mayor of Portland, Oregon.

5) Discontinue any entitlements to illegal immigrants.

6) Offer them a free ride back to Mexico.

They'll quit coming.

These are the same things I have been advocating myself.


If you don't like the laws, change them.

OK, open the borders completely, allow everyone. I'll bet that China would import about a billion people to our shores then.

What ever happened to the rule of law?

Ever read the constitution, the parts about immigration?

When they are here without depressing wages, and use no social services, I'm fine with them here. As long as they pay their own way and remain lawful once here.

I am an advocate of placing them in these jobs that supposable Americans don't want. If they can work, and they don't work when employment is available, then cut them off.

Better yet, trade them one-for-one with the illegal aliens who do want to work!

How about that for an immigration idea?

They are hard working and many do support themselves. If they can support themselves and family, I really have no problem with them.

One problem is just that. Before the first Amnesty in 1986, we had legal ways to accept migrant workers. We still do, but not the same as before. Very few of the illegals are really doing jobs that Americans don't want. We don't want the jobs at the wages paid. Supply and demand not only dictates the prices of goods, but the prices of wages too. The estimated 20 million (12 is a very old number) illegals is about 15% of our population. It dilutes what employers must pay for labor. If employers cannot find workers, they should increase the wages. Not increase the workforce, especially by those who disrespect our laws to work.

As for this "bottom of the labor triangle?" there are plenty of jobs the illegals work that use to be good paying jobs. Unscrupulous entrepreneurs have undercut the prevailing wages by hiring illegals who will work for have the price. Many businesses that have gone under have been for this reason.

Agreed. I say find them and cut them off.

We are at least in agreement on these issues.

Nobody in their right mind is saying all immigration is illegal. It is the left that tries to spin the right's point of view that way. We are a nation of immigrants. The land of this nation is now rather well populated, and the days of letting anyone in are no more.

There are a greater number percentage wise that are illegal. That wouldn't happen if we hade real border control.

So would I.

What would happen if you went to Canada some day, bought forged documents to work, and made a life one day. What would happen if the authorities there found out? Would they prosecute you for those crimes?

Get a clue. They are over-saturating our social systems and depressing wages. If we don't get a handle now, the common citizen will continue to get poorer year by year.

What's your solution? Raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour?

There will always be low wage jobs. Raise the floor, and the furniture sits higher too..

Then they claim enough dependants on their W-4 and have no income taxes taken out. Then they get social services under another name, or two, or three. They already have illegal ID, why not? Our system, especially in a Sanctuary City like mine do not check to see if they are getting assistance under more than one name!

I heard something about some of the Social Security numbers being used reduced the benefits of the elderly, because the system shows then receiving an income. How true that is, I don't know, but it makes sense.

We make it easy for people to sit on their asses, and we make it easy for illegals to work. Make it a system of real verification, and both problems will be dramatically reduced.

It sure is, but this is to keep people out. Not to keep our own people prisoners.

Poor comparison.

Until you allow uncontrolled levels of population increase.

It seems to me that the current un-enforced policies and the solutions in the senate are causing some rather stiff social rifts. Most the people want border control and tougher policies. Shouldn't our government listen, instead of trying to increase the cheap labor pool?

Again, I agree. The government is here to protect us, not to give away our sovereignty.

What would the demoncraps do if the people no longer needed social programs?

Keep one thing in mind. I live in this sanctuary city called Portland. Things are getting worse year by year.

My wife's wages have gone down from $15.00 per hour to $12.25 per hour over the last two years. She works for a cleaning service, and her boss has to compete against illegal aliens. He may loose his business, and she may lose her job if things keep going like they are.

Look, I agree with most of what you wrote... your rebuttals were clearly presented and coherent. Unlike some of the more prejudicial based arguments (social generalizations) that are sometimes thrown around when entering this hot-topic.

With an over-saturated market of workers, companies are having to low cut wages in order to compete. When the wages fall below the limits established by the federal government (i.e. illegal wages), I fully understand that it places an undue burden on companies that aren't hiring 'illegal' migrant workers.

In the bigger picture however, that is exactly what is going on with blue collar and some white collar jobs as well. They are being outsourced to foreign countries. The U.S. is losing more money on a dollar for dollar basis to this phenomenon than it is to the problem posed by 'illegal' immigration. This problem trickles down rather than flowing up, and places the burden on the country's base industries (agriculture, manufacturing etc...). that is why they are being forced into tighter personnel budgets... and the rest is just the product of the market. So either we are willing to pay more for the goods and services provided by the legal market, and do away with 'illegal' wages or we complain about the 'illegal' influx of workers and their effect on our taxes. The balance is not an easy one to resolve from an economic perspective.

Look.... I get that.

The problem I was addressing was that it is completely inhumane for us to label immigrants as criminals simply because they are an 'illegal' work force, the byproduct of their coutries' economic woes, at no fault of their own.

I was addressing the social ramifications of such a blatant prejudicial barb. It casts all immigrants in bad light. That's what I was calling out.

I also stand by my analogy of any proposed future wall to the "Berlin Wall". Though your objection is valid. A wall, any wall, is still very much a deterrent of freedom and liberty. People should never be treated like roaches.

I know we can't fix all the problems in 3rd World countries - governmental ineptitudes that perpetuate the continual nature of their respective country's 3rd world class status. Problems that drive their people out in search of a brighter future.

We could, however, do a better job of investing the money we spend on immigration enforcement to cut the problem at its root rather than trying to curb the symptoms. Kind of like eliminating the demand for drugs (the dependence of US market) would go a long ways in eliminating the drug trade. We need to cut the demand for migrant work. NOT an easy task of course. We could also do a better job of creating jobs in countries such as Mexico, Guatemala, etc... so that they don't feel the need to come here. In the long run the money vested would be better for the U.S. economy.

[Wild Cobra]

The problem I was addressing was that it is completely inhumane for us to label immigrants as criminals simply because they are an 'illegal' work force, the byproduct of their coutries' economic woes, at no fault of their own.

It is not inhuman to call things as they are. It is simply being blunt rather than politically correct.


I was addressing the social ramifications of such a blatant prejudicial barb. It casts all immigrants in bad light. That's what I was calling out.

Then blame those who link the two together. Most of us who believe in fixing the problem don't believe in stopping immigration. We just want it to be a controlled process and not excessive.


I also stand by my analogy of any proposed future wall to the "Berlin Wall". Though your objection is valid. A wall, any wall, is still very much a deterrent of freedom and liberty. People should never be treated like roaches.

Have a better solution? What is it?

I didn't think so...


I know we can't fix all the problems in 3rd World countries - governmental ineptitudes that perpetuate the continual nature of their respective country's 3rd world class status. Problems that drive their people out in search of a brighter future.

True, but since we can control immigration, shouldn't we grant the ones passage first who with to play by the rules, and not break into our house? (country)


We could, however, do a better job of investing the money we spend on immigration enforcement to cut the problem at its root rather than trying to curb the symptoms.
Yes, and all of us conservative want to do just that.

Kind of like eliminating the demand for drugs (the dependence of US market) would go a long ways in eliminating the drug trade.
Yep, in this case, if we make it next to impossible for illegals to work, they will go back home. EWord will get out, and they will stop comming.

We need to cut the demand for migrant work. NOT an easy task of course.
Migrant work is not the problem. We have legal mechanism for these programs. It is the ones who commit a federal crimes with ID theft and forgeries to work other jobs and stay here, then abuse the wealfare system too.

We could also do a better job of creating jobs in countries such as Mexico, Guatemala, etc... so that they don't feel the need to come here. In the long run the money vested would be better for the U.S. economy.

That was why NAFTA went over so well. It was a good program until we granted the same favors to other countries too. NAFTA would have built up the Mexican economy, but now China and other third world countries are making the goods Mexican citizens were suppose to make. If we had free trade with only Mexico and Canada, we wouldn't need to worry about border control with Mexico. They would have jobs there.

In general I am against free trade, but Mexico is our immediate neighbor. I say free trade with Mexico only and reapply the high tariffs with other countries. It should fix the outsourcing problem too!

[xrayzebra]

Here is a column by Thomas Sowell that I hope all of you
read. Please note what is happening in Europe. And think about
what happened in LA here in the United States. What happened
to OUR police when they attempted to control a group of
hoodlums in LA just a few weeks ago. This is our future, it is
already happening here in the US. I have a very trouble
outlook for this country if we don't get our immigration problem
solved. One thing no one talks about, what happens to all
these un-educated, poor people when unemployment goes to
say 8 percent or 10 percent or even higher. Can you say
riots in the streets.



Jewish World Review June 14, 2007 / 28 Sivan, 5767

A home invader program?

By Thomas Sowell




http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | People who are pushing for a "guest worker" program show not the slightest interest in what has been happening under guest worker programs in Europe. Facts are apparently irrelevant.


So is logic. Guests are people you invite to your home. Gate crashers are people who come without being invited. Home invaders are people who break in, despite doors that have been shut to keep them out.


If the discussion of immigration laws respected either logic or honesty, we would be talking about a program to legalize home invaders instead of a guest worker program.


As for facts, guest workers from Third World countries have created centers of crime and violence in Europe, and some guest worker communities have become breeding grounds for terrorists.


Just as crime and violence in American inner cities have led not only to "white flight" but also to a flight of the black, Hispanic and Asian middle classes, so in Europe much of the native-born European population has fled from cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Brussels.



Kotkin's classic book "The City" noted the "influx of immigrants" who were "recruited to Europe during the labor shortages of the 1950s and 1960s" who have become "an increasingly angry and sometimes violent element in what long had been remarkably peaceful urban areas."


Another classic book — "Our Culture: What's Left of It" by Theodore Dalrymple — found a similar pattern in France.


Long before the Muslim riots in Paris which shocked France and the world, Dalrymple pointed out how immigrants in France had become a major source of crime and violence, not only in Paris but in other parts of the country.


The housing projects immediately surrounding Paris have become concentrations of "several million" Third World immigrants — a population filled with "the hatred it bears for the other, 'official' society of France."


They are not appeased by "the people who carelessly toss them the crumbs of Western prosperity." What they want is what most people want — respect — and this cannot be given to them, least of all by the French welfare state.


In order to feel self-respect, the young especially "needed to see themselves as warriors in a civil war, not mere ne'er-do-wells and criminals."


This anti-social vision has been supported and even celebrated by many intellectuals, much as both black and white intellectuals have celebrated the senseless brutality and cheap vulgarity of rap music in America.


What may be especially relevant to the situation in the United States is that the immigrant parents and grandparents of the violent youths came to France with a very different view.


They were glad to be in France, which for most was a big improvement over where they came from. "They were better Frenchmen than either their children or grandchildren," Dalrymple noted.


They would never have booed the French national anthem at a public event, as the later generations did — and as the American national anthem has been booed in Los Angeles.


The later generations were not born in the Third World countries from which their parents and grandparents escaped. They were born in France, and resented not having the same prosperity as other Frenchmen.


Here again, the media and the intelligentsia in France, as in the United States, tend to turn differences in achievement — "gaps," "disparities" — into social injustices rather than reflections of differences in the things that create achievement.


One of the things that make many people such passionate advocates of amnesty for illegal immigrants from Mexico is that so many Mexican immigrants are hard-working, decent family people.


That was also true of many Third World "guest workers" in Europe, who were glad to be there, but whose children and grandchildren have developed very different and very poisonous attitudes — with the help of activists, demagogues, and the media.


Today's illegal immigrants are too often analogized to early 20th century immigrants from Europe. But their situation is far more similar to that of contemporary "guest workers" in Europe.

[nsrammstein]

So is logic. Guests are people you invite to your home. Gate crashers are people who come without being invited. Home invaders are people who break in, despite doors that have been shut to keep them out.

But aren't you saying that me must SECURE our doors first? so that means that our doors are not completely shut! so that might mean that we are welcoming them into our country! and then when they are here we give them jobs! so that means that they are not that ''unwelcome'' into hour house!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

solid post by the hegamboa

Personally I can name like 2 or 3 regular legal citizens that are taking advantage of medicare and/or welfare, also using that little bit in the system where you file as seperated from your spouse but really aren't, just to get more benefits.....but that is so much less of a problem than a mexican born mother who works 20 hours a day at mcdonalds, pays all taxes, just so her kids can have clothes and shoes and attend school? Pure blasphemy.

If they're working hard and paying taxes, who gives a shit. The whole voting argument is ridiculous as well. Show me one concrete peice of data suggesting illegals vote in force. I've yet to see it from any of the artards who insist it's happening.

[Wild Cobra]

Personally I can name like 2 or 3 regular legal citizens that are taking advantage of medicare and/or welfare, also using that little bit in the system where you file as seperated from your spouse but really aren't, just to get more benefits.....
I know some also. I think the primary problem is that the government workers think that if they actually follow the intent of the laws, they will lose their jobs from lack of customers!

but that is so much less of a problem than a mexican born mother who works 20 hours a day at mcdonalds, pays all taxes, just so her kids can have clothes and shoes and attend school? Pure blasphemy.

Except that those in the low wage jobs are taking away jobs from our kids and low skilled USA citizens. On top of that, they already supplied illegal forged documents to work. Why should I believe they also file a W-4 form correctly to pay taxes? Enforcement is so lax, they can get away with all kinds of fraud taking our tax money in social services too.

Maybe you don't care how your tax dollars are spent, but I have paid more than $20,000 in income taxes during some years, and I see the impact on tax increases necessary to support such socialism!


If they're working hard and paying taxes, who gives a shit.
They can easily skip paying income taxes by how they fill out the W-4.

The whole voting argument is ridiculous as well.
Maybe where you live, but not in Oregon. They get a Drivers License at DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) using they genuine Mexican ID and then are given a voters registration form! This is an undisputed fact in Oregon. There is simply no federal requirement to verify voter status, so many places refuse to check.

Show me one concrete peice of data suggesting illegals vote in force. I've yet to see it from any of the artards who insist it's happening.

I cannot show you the data because just about anywhere you go evidence is ignored and not checked upon. We conservatives continue to ask for verifications, but it doesn't happen.

Would you be an advocate to verify voter status?

[boutons_]

"evidence is ignored and not checked upon."

Simply amazing.

Same faith-based myth about "massive voter fraud" championed by Karl Rove and his henchmen. We're supposed to be afraid, and BELIVE it's out there, but for some mysterious reason, even Repug hack US attorneys, laboring away for 6 years, have been unable to find any evidence of significant fraud, with prosecutions turning up empty handed, or of individuals in single digits. "massive"?? GMAFB

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Would you be an advocate to verify voter status?



I would be if that werent a 50 year old ploy to keep dumbass minorities (legal) from voting....my grandpa helped strike that shit down in victoria because they asked for like 2 or 3 forms of ID from everyone and most of the unedumacated mexicans didn't have that....still though, their right to vote was and is the same as others.

[AFE7FATMAN]

How Long Do We Have?

In 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."

"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."

"From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years."

"During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29

Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000 Bush: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million Bush: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2 Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years. Oh, and by the way, Social Security will collapse, pension funds will default and guess what?...... we all watched it happen. If you think the great depression of the nineteen-thirties was bad, at least many homes and farms had a garden and livestock back then. We have a refrigerator and a pantry. How long will that sustain a family?
Just how much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

"History repeats itself because nobody listens" - Anonymous.

[xrayzebra]

^^That 20 million will translate into about 50 million+ if all the
provisions are passed about them bringing their relations into
the country. This influx will do as you say. Bankrupt all the
social programs. It will change the whole makeup of entire
communities/states overnight. And where will the "diversity"
crowd be then. And my dire prediction is: the bill will pass
the senate and more than likely the house. All in the name of
humanity and political correctness and political power.

[nsrammstein]

^^That 20 million will translate into about 50 million+ if all the
provisions are passed about them bringing their relations into
the country. This influx will do as you say. Bankrupt all the
social programs. It will change the whole makeup of entire
communities/states overnight. And where will the "diversity"
crowd be then. And my dire prediction is: the bill will pass
the senate and more than likely the house. All in the name of
humanity and political correctness and political power.

I think someone watches a lot of Lou Dobbs Tonight!!

[smeagol]

Man, agreeing with cbf is wierd

[boutons_]

"NAFTA would have built up the Mexican economy,"

total bullshit, NAFTA, and globalization, was always a scam for US corps, often with heavy corporate welfare subsidies, to sell into other countries, undercutting local unsubsidized producers.

eg, heavily subsidized US corn destroyed Mexican subsistence corn farmers, many of who became illegal immigrants into the US.

And now that $50B subsidized ethanol has pushed US corn prices high, Mexicans are getting screwed by US high corn prices, a staple of their diet.

With friends like the duplicitous US and its rapacious corps, who needs enemies?

[Wild Cobra]

"NAFTA would have built up the Mexican economy,"

total bullshit, NAFTA, and globalization, was always a scam for US corps, often with heavy corporate welfare subsidies, to sell into other countries, undercutting local unsubsidized producers.

Do you even take a second to analyze what people say, or do you always jump to improper conclusions? You should re-read what I said. Go ahead, take me out of context, and any intelligent person will start ignoring you. I said nothing about liking globalization, and implied the other free trade arrangements are bad!

Yes, we would take a hit with NAFTA alone. However the long term payout is an increased Mexican economy with them working there instead of coming here illegally. Since they are an immediate neighbor, it is in our best interest to help their economy.

What happened, is president Clinton started these free trade arrangements with other countries. Now it is cheaper to buy other places than Mexico, and NAFTA is no longer doing the good it would have.


eg, heavily subsidized US corn destroyed Mexican subsistence corn farmers, many of who became illegal immigrants into the US.

That’s not true. What evidence? Now I agree we should not subsidize a crop that is now in endless demand. Didn’t I state something similar?


And now that $50B subsidized ethanol has pushed US corn prices high, Mexicans are getting screwed by US high corn prices, a staple of their diet.

50 billion? Maybe. But the subsidy doesn't push the prices, the demand does. The demand is mandated by fuel mixes per states. If I recall, the subsidy is $0.51 per gallon to those making the ethanol. If that is right, that equates to 98 billon gallons of ethanol. Seems like a rather high assessment, but I haven't looked at the numbers. What is our annual gasoline useage?

Now the subsidy was to keep people buying the required ethanol mixed fuels to not see an increase in prices, since ethanol was more expensive before gas prices climbed where they are today. States like mine in the winter require gasoline to be 10% ethanol. There might be other approved formulas, but my point is that it cost more to make the winter blend before the fuel prices raised.
MTBE is being phased out and replaced by ethanol in some or all parts of the USA. I was never in favor of the subsidy then, and am even more against it since it isn’t needed now to keep the price as low as gasoline. Even if it gets higher than gas with demand, so what. We can deal with higher gas prices yet.

The Mexican issue is entirely different. They have their own corn. As they started using ethanol in fuels, their increase is of their own supply and demand economics. I have not heard of us shipping in their corn for our usage. Is that so? Everything I read deals with their increased ethanol usage. With more of their crops going into fuel production, less is left for food. The price climbs. Part of economics 101. We will see the same thing with corn prices as we start to use more for ethanol.