Worst MVP in the last few decades?

[Johnny RIngo]

Nash or Dirk?

Both play/played on the Mavs
Both are chokers

Which one's the more undeserving MVP?

It's a tough choice for me but I'd have to go with the overrated Nash. His team's loaded with talent: He's got 2 other all-stars on his team, a defensive first team player, sixth man of the year and the Suns still can't dominate any team in the playoffs aside from the Lakers.

[u2sarajevo]

Another thread to dogpile on the Mavs.

Joy.

[Dre_7]

Another thread to dogpile on the Mavs.

Joy.

Perhaps they shouldnt have lost to an 8th seed after winning 67 games. :lmao :lmao

[u2sarajevo]

Perhaps they shouldnt have lost to an 8th seed after winning 67 games. :lmao :lmaoOh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah ahaha

That was an original thought.

woooooooooooooooohhhhhhh

man that was great.

[Leetonidas]

Nash is pretty clutch. It's his team that's not. However, he only deserved one of his trophies, but he wasn't a terrible choice for MVP. I think Dirk's is tainted due to his massive meltdown in the first round.

[Corn on the Colb]

Oh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah ahaha

That was an original thought.

woooooooooooooooohhhhhhh

man that was great.

Pretty true, though.

It was pretty true...

[Findog]

Nash is pretty clutch. It's his team that's not. However, he only deserved one of his trophies, but he wasn't a terrible choice for MVP. I think Dirk's is tainted due to his massive meltdown in the first round.

Uh, Dirk's PER against Golden State was over 20. His regular season PER was 27. Over 20 is all-star caliber, 27 is MVP. Dirk wasn't even the main culprit for his team's demise. He deserves legitimate criticism for not measuring up to his regular season peformance, but he's not the main reason his team lost, especially considering Avery sat Damp and moved Dirk over to the C. Imagine a goalie being moved to center-forward and it's easy to understand the slight drop-off in his performance.

Did you even watch those games? If you had, perhaps you might've noticed Avery getting worked like a punching bag at the hands of Nellie...or JET unable to hit water from a boat. Or Buckner and George having PER's under 5.

I would think Spurs fans of all people would know by now not to underestimate the guy.

[resistanze]

Nash because the back-2-back MVPs compounds the misery of that decision.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Nash... MVP is a season award. Nash's mvps make me feel bad for Kidd's lack of MVPs lol.

[EJFischer]

Allen Iverson.

EDIT: Wait, decades? Then the worst is Magic Johnson over Michael Jordan in 1989. A.I. over Shaq is number 2.

[ChumpDumper]

By the way, does anyone remember who won Defensive Player of the Year?

[Findog]

By the way, does anyone remember who won Defensive Player of the Year?

Was it Camby or Marion? I honestly don't remember and don't feel like taking the 2 seconds to google it.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Camby

[baseline bum]

Dirk absolutely was the main culprit for his team's loss, but he was also the main reason for their great season. Dude ran out of gas placing too much importance on the regular season after a devastating Finals loss, exactly like the Pistons did the year before.

I'll say Nash, only because Kobe was my first choice for '06 MVP (Nash earned it in 05 though, and was a distant second in my book in 06).

[EJFischer]

By the way, does anyone remember who won Defensive Player of the Year?


I've been meaning to mention, I frequently enjoy your posts.

[ObiwanGinobili]

who the fuck is Camby again?

[Findog]

Dirk absolutely was the main culprit for his team's loss, but he was also the main reason for their great season. Dude ran out of gas placing too much importance on the regular season after a devastating Finals loss, exactly like the Pistons did the year before.

I'll say Nash, only because Kobe was my first choice for '06 MVP (Nash earned it in 05 though, and was a distant second in my book in 06).

I will just simply disagree. The entire Mavs team underachieved in that series, from the coaching staff to the players, with the exception of maybe Diop. And when your sixth-best player is the only guy to show up, you're not going to win.

Do you think that the GS-Dal series is that big of an upset? Dallas's team efficiency ratings projected them at 60 wins, about what they did the last two years but they got 67, mainly going fifth gear against a bunch of teams packing it in for a chance at Oden. And the Warriors were a much better team after that trade. I think they would've won 50-55 if they had been healthy and together all year. A 55-win team beating a 60-win team doesn't seem like anything more than a mild upset, does it?

[td4mvp21]

I will just simply disagree. The entire Mavs team underachieved in that series, from the coaching staff to the players, with the exception of maybe Diop. And when your sixth-best player is the only guy to show up, you're not going to win.

Do you think that the GS-Dal series is that big of an upset? Dallas's team efficiency ratings projected them at 60 wins, about what they did the last two years but they got 67, mainly going fifth gear against a bunch of teams packing it in for a chance at Oden. And the Warriors were a much better team after that trade. I think they would've won 50-55 if they had been healthy and together all year. A 55-win team beating a 60-win team doesn't seem like anything more than a mild upset, does it?

No, it was really that bad. I'm sorry but it's pathetic that you guys try to rationalize your team's choke job with "Oh, the Warriors really weren't an 8-seed". They were an 8-seed, the Mavs lost to them. Simple as that. The Jazz beat them in 5 games, and the Spurs beat the Jazz in 5 games. Any team in the playoffs besides Dallas and L.A. could have beaten the Warriors in a 7-game series.

[Fillmoe]

that guy from 2002 and 2003 was fucking garbage

[monosylab1k]

I don't give a fuck what PER anybody had out there on the court, I don't give a fuck how many rebounds he pulled down...the bottom line is that DIRK was the one that needed to lead this team by getting the fucking ball in the bucket and he failed miserably. Whether it was by beating a guy smaller than him or passing out of a double team to the right guy, DIRK FAILED MISERABLY.

Attitude reflects leadership. Effort reflects leadership. Clutch play reflects leadership. I can go on and on. When Dirk came to play, the rest of the team came to play. When Dirk decided it was nap time, so did the rest of the team. Don't put this fucking abortion of a series at Jason Terry's feet, or Devean George's, or Josh Howard's or even Avery's. The bottom line (and this is not something any geek Hollinger stat can give you) is that this team NEEDED their leader to step up and make shots, they NEEDED their leader to play aggressively for 4 quarters, and they got NONE OF THAT. well except half a good game and then a miracle bailout at the end of the other one.

You can say the blame can be shared, fine whatever....but the VAST MAJORITY of the blame MUST FALL AT THE FEET OF DIRK.

[Findog]

No, it was really that bad. I'm sorry but it's pathetic that you guys try to rationalize your team's choke job with "Oh, the Warriors really weren't an 8-seed". They were an 8-seed, the Mavs lost to them. Simple as that. The Jazz beat them in 5 games, and the Spurs beat the Jazz in 5 games. Any team in the playoffs besides Dallas and L.A. could have beaten the Warriors in a 7-game series.

How is it a "choke job"? A choke is when you have a lead and cough it up. Dallas never controlled that series. They lost to a pretty good team. Dallas is vulnerable to small ball, while small ball teams like the Warriors are vulnerable to great post players (Boozer), and Deron Williams cancelled out Baron Davis. Simple as that. The Warriors were an 8 seed that went 16-3 down the stretch with everybody healthy -- they beat Phoenix, Dallas twice, Pistons in Detroit, Utah twice. They were NOT some .500 team backing into the playoffs. Give them some respect.

I'm not claiming it's not an upset, it was. And I'm not claiming Dallas played their best, they clearly didn't. But this was a whack season in a lot of ways. The records and seedings didn't matter as much this year. "Findog" on "Spurstalk.com" isn't going to change the perception of it being a historic implosion, but I would like to see Golden State keep that team intact and win 55 games next year. It won't look nearly as bad as it does now.

[Findog]

I don't give a fuck what PER anybody had out there on the court, I don't give a fuck how many rebounds he pulled down...the bottom line is that DIRK was the one that needed to lead this team by getting the fucking ball in the bucket and he failed miserably. Whether it was by beating a guy smaller than him or passing out of a double team to the right guy, DIRK FAILED MISERABLY.

I understand what you're saying about intangibles and poise, things that can't be measured by stats, and Dirk failed there. A lot of stat geeks try to claim that Garnett is equal or better than Duncan based on the fact they both put up 22 and 11. But Dirk gave this team more in that series than people remember. He had one truly horrible game. I don't mind criticizing him and saying he failed to measure up to his standards, but I'm tired of people laying the blame for that series solely at his feet. He had plenty of "help."

PER has its limitations but it's a pretty good way of measuring a player's impact on the game. Hollinger is the same guy who swore up and down since February that San Antonio was the best team in the League based on point differential. That made no sense at the time but it's clear in retrospect he and his stats were right. So what if they lost a game here or there at home to Charlotte or Boston? They were kicking teams in the teeth and occasionally taking a night off, whereas Dallas won EVERY SINGLE GAME by a grand total of 5 points. The bottom line is that if Dirk graded out over 20 on PER, he was performing at an All-Star caliber level, with the miserable exception of Game Six. And he was doing it at the Center position. Let's see Pop switch Duncan out to Shooting Guard and see how effective he still is.

[td4mvp21]

How is it a "choke job"? A choke is when you have a lead and cough it up. Dallas never controlled that series. They lost to a pretty good team. Dallas is vulnerable to small ball, while small ball teams like the Warriors are vulnerable to great post players (Boozer), and Deron Williams cancelled out Baron Davis. Simple as that. The Warriors were an 8 seed that went 16-3 down the stretch with everybody healthy -- they beat Phoenix, Dallas twice, Pistons in Detroit, Utah twice. They were NOT some .500 team backing into the playoffs. Give them some respect.

I'm not claiming it's not an upset, it was. And I'm not claiming Dallas played their best, they clearly didn't. But this was a whack season in a lot of ways. The records and seedings didn't matter as much this year. "Findog" on "Spurstalk.com" isn't going to change the perception of it being a historic implosion, but I would like to see Golden State keep that team intact and win 55 games next year. It won't look nearly as bad as it does now.

The Mavs won 67 games, had homecourt throughout the playoffs, and was favored to win the Championship. You lose to a fucking 8 seed in the first round. It doesn't matter if you were up or not, your team LOST IN THE FIRST ROUND. That's choking.

[Findog]

The Mavs won 67 games

Including a bushel of wins over teams tanking for Oden. It's one of the least impressive 67 win seasons ever. Based on their efficiency stats, they were a 60 win team, not a 67 win team. If the regular season doesn't matter, why do Spurs fans keep pointing to that gaudy record as proof of anything that matters instead of the fool's gold that it really is?


had homecourt throughout the playoffs,

Homecourt is overrated. It's nice to have, but you don't need it to win a series.


and was favored to win the Championship.

Wouldn't have beaten the Spurs.


You lose to a fucking 8 seed in the first round. It doesn't matter if you were up or not, your team LOST IN THE FIRST ROUND.


Lost to a very good team that was one of the best teams in basketball from February on. Is November-February all that relevant? Because if it was, then Dallas > San Antonio. Losing to Miami was a choke job. Losing to Golden State was a case of X's and O's, bad coaching and tired legs from going fifth gear for 82 games. The quality of the two teams made this more akin to a second-round matchup. An upset for sure, but a minor upset, not a historic one. 67-15 and 42-40 isn't nearly as relevant as what these teams did after the All-Star break.

[Bob Lanier]

Karl Malone.

[MrChug]

I will just simply disagree. The entire Mavs team underachieved in that series, from the coaching staff to the players, with the exception of maybe Diop. And when your sixth-best player is the only guy to show up, you're not going to win.

Do you think that the GS-Dal series is that big of an upset? Dallas's team efficiency ratings projected them at 60 wins, about what they did the last two years but they got 67, mainly going fifth gear against a bunch of teams packing it in for a chance at Oden. And the Warriors were a much better team after that trade. I think they would've won 50-55 if they had been healthy and together all year. A 55-win team beating a 60-win team doesn't seem like anything more than a mild upset, does it?

#1 Findog...if Diop is your 6th best player, you belong NOWHERE in the PLAYOFFS even. You guys don't even understand that he's a ROLEPLAYER and you complain about being losers? I count him at the bottom of your roster man. If you count him any higher that's like sayin Fabricio Oberto is the reason we won the Utah series. Damn you're an idiot.

#2. If you can figure out one player more deserving of the Mavs demise, my hats off to yo...but you can't.

[Findog]

#1 Findog...if Diop is your 6th best player, you belong NOWHERE in the PLAYOFFS even.

Uh, on most teams, the sixth-best player IS a role player. And you're calling me an idiot? Who is San Antonio's sixth-best player? Maybe Oberto? He's a role player as well. After the Big Three, I count Finley and Bowen as the next best two guys on your roster. After that, it's Oberto and a big pile of shit. Doesn't matter because of the cream at the top of the roster.


You guys don't even understand that he's a ROLEPLAYER and you complain about being losers?

And you can't read, or comprehend anyway:

And when your sixth-best player is the only guy to show up, you're not going to win.

I said that Diop was the only one of our guys to play up to expectations, and that is a bad, bad omen. If you had watched the actual games, you would've seen that he was the only big we had that came completely close to being able to disrupt Golden State's small ball by rebounding and defending well. We choked in Game 4 against the Warriors, and if we had held on for the win, he would've been our MVP of that game. He had a +/- of +27 in our Game Two win. He's got the size and speed to stay on the floor against a team like Golden State. Unfortunately, he's limited because he's a young player that hasn't learned yet to stay out of foul trouble. I didn't say he was the second coming of Bill Russell. And I would think that Spurs fans would know better than to shit all over him. He defends Duncan as well as anybody in the League, which is to say, not very well at all, but he d's up Duncan about as well as can be done. Or maybe you missed Game 7 of our series last year.


I count him at the bottom of your roster man.

My bad, he's actually our seventh-best player. I think it goes something like this: Dirk, Howard, Jet, Stack, Harris, Damp, Diop, Buck, George, Croshere, Ager, Barea, Willis, Mbenga, Mensu-Bonsu. He's a rotation player, not end of the bench fodder. He'd get 30 minutes a night on most teams. Jeez, you can shit on Dallas all you want for Miami and Golden State, and it's mostly deserved, but I can't believe Spurs fans are underestimating what this team is capable of. We screwed up your three-peat. I cannot believe I'm running into a Spurs fan dissing Diop as a warm body for scrimmage purposes. I thought Spurs fans were supposed to be knowledgeable and have long memories. Oh well, just insert "four rings" and "chokers" as your response here, I've never heard those before.


If you count him any higher that's like sayin Fabricio Oberto is the reason we won the Utah series. Damn you're an idiot.

Well, I didn't make that argument for Oberto. Keep on knocking down strawmen and resorting to ad hom attacks, it sure beats having to make a well-reasoned argument.


If you can figure out one player more deserving of the Mavs demise, my hats off to yo...but you can't

Jet...Couldn't guard anybody, couldn't knock down a shot to save his life. This series hinged more on Baron Davis playing at an unreal level than Dirk failing. Maybe if we had somebody that could keep BD in front of him (Terry), or knock down open shots when Dirk got triple-teamed (Terry), we'd have advanced. Or if Nellie didn't work Avery over like Darth Vader did to Luke in Empire. I'm not absolving Dirk of his fair share of the blame, but nobody wants to acknowledge that this was a team letdown, they just want to pile on and call the guy names and question his heart. Avery is the one that raised the white flag by going small from the outset and sliding Dirk over to center. How effective do you think Duncan would be if he was playing way out of position? Duncan is a traditional post player, it's not much difference for him to slide over to the 5 from the 4. He still anchors the defense, he still scores from the low blocks, it's more of a semantic difference than anything else. Dirk is a decent help defender and bad on the ball defender. Avery sat Damp and all of the sudden expected Dirk to anchor his frontline defensively? Dirk is not that kind of player and his coach deserves plenty of blame for putting him in spots out on the floor that diluted his effectiveness. Put Timmy at PG and Tony Parker at the 4 and see how well they play. Dirk still contributed, not at an MVP-caliber level, but he still helped his team more than he hurt it, except in G6. He had a much worse series against Houston two years ago but we advanced. There's legitimate criticism to be levied against him, but this thing has just snowballed into name-calling instead of level-headed basketball analysis. Henry Abbott and John Hollinger you're not.

[Bob Lanier]

Maybe if we had somebody that could keep BD in front of him (Terry)
Why Terry? Why not Devin "I'm supposed to make Sidney Moncrief look like Steve Nash" Harris?

[Findog]

Why Terry? Why not Devin "I'm supposed to make Sidney Moncrief look like Steve Nash" Harris?

Yeah, I'm not that high on him either. For a guy who has a rep as a defensive "stopper," he can't keep Wade or Davis out of the lane. Doesn't matter if you shut down Raymond Felton in December, those aren't the guys still playing in May and June.

[BUMP]

i remember us Mav fans in the offseason screaming automatic championship cause we got a supposed "defensive stopper" in Greg Buckner :lmao

we are all guilty Mav fans

[ElNono]

Has to be _irk:

#1 - 7 footer without a post game after being in the league for years, and being told to improve in that area.
#2 - Non-existent defense. Getting posterized by Matt freaking Barnes?
#3 - Zero leadership. Calling out teammates on the post-game press conference. Hiding on the 3 point line and not asking for the ball when the game and series is on the line.

You could argue that Nash is also a liability on defense, but he's the best player in the league at his position, and he always shows up when it matters. Doesn't always win the game for you, but you know he won't disappear from the game.

[Agloco]

Uh, Dirk's PER against Golden State was over 20. His regular season PER was 27. Over 20 is all-star caliber, 27 is MVP. Dirk wasn't even the main culprit for his team's demise. He deserves legitimate criticism for not measuring up to his regular season peformance, but he's not the main reason his team lost, especially considering Avery sat Damp and moved Dirk over to the C. Imagine a goalie being moved to center-forward and it's easy to understand the slight drop-off in his performance.

Did you even watch those games? If you had, perhaps you might've noticed Avery getting worked like a punching bag at the hands of Nellie...or JET unable to hit water from a boat. Or Buckner and George having PER's under 5.

I would think Spurs fans of all people would know by now not to underestimate the guy.


When your "MVP" drops 7 points per game against an 8th seeded team, that qualifies as a massive meltdown. I'd think his offensive game shouldn't fall off, especially against a smaller lineup.

Or perhaps you point to the fact that the Warriors are known for their great team defense?

[MadDog73]

Dirk absolutely was the main culprit for his team's loss, but he was also the main reason for their great season. Dude ran out of gas placing too much importance on the regular season after a devastating Finals loss, exactly like the Pistons did the year before.

I'll say Nash, only because Kobe was my first choice for '06 MVP (Nash earned it in 05 though, and was a distant second in my book in 06).

Whaa?

Nash lead his team (w/o Amare) all the way to the WCF. If he doesn't deserve MVP, why would Kobe?

Nash deserved his MVPs.

[Findog]

When your "MVP" drops 7 points per game against an 8th seeded team, that qualifies as a massive meltdown. I'd think his offensive game shouldn't fall off, especially against a smaller lineup.

Or perhaps you point to the fact that the Warriors are known for their great team defense?

Read before you type -- I was referring to PER, not points per game. His regular season PER was 27, his PER against Golden State was 20. A PER of 27 is MVP-worthy, a PER of 20 is All-Star caliber. If these concepts are too difficult for you to understand, go here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

Warriors are underrated defensively -- they are active and get lots of steals from overplaying the passing lanes.

[Findog]

#1 - 7 footer without a post game after being in the league for years, and being told to improve in that area.

Tim Duncan can hit an 18-foot jumper consistently, but is that what you want him to do all game long? Spurs fans seem to have a short memory, I could've sworn he took it to the rim repeatedly in our series a year ago. What makes Dirk so dangerous is he's a 7-footer that can play like a guard. He doesn't back guys down with his back to the basket, even on his drives he scores facing the hoop.



#2 - Non-existent defense. Getting posterized by Matt freaking Barnes?

Sigh, here we go again - Dirk is a decent help defender and bad on the ball defender. While you're throwing Dirk under the bus, make room for Avery. He's the one who sat Damp and slid Dirk over to Center. Does it make sense for a soccer coach to move his goalie to center-forward? If Pop moved Duncan to shooting guard, do you think Timmy could keep opposing two's in front of him? And did you watch the playoffs? Barnes is a pretty good player. Just because he doesn't have a huge contract or endorsement deals or has been underestimated by Maurice Cheeks doesn't mean he can't play.


#3 - Zero leadership. Calling out teammates on the post-game press conference. Hiding on the 3 point line and not asking for the ball when the game and series is on the line.

Hmm, Dirk's also a gym rat that works on his game, he takes the blame when things go wrong and always makes sure to credit his teammates and coaches when things go well. And he was willing to go outside his comfort zone and do what was requested of him by Avery after Nellie left. Yeah, that's "zero leadership."


You could argue that Nash is also a liability on defense, but he's the best player in the league at his position, and he always shows up when it matters. Doesn't always win the game for you, but you know he won't disappear from the game.

Hmm, I guess you missed the Suns getting eliminated last year on their home floor when Nash sucked it up. Or maybe all those years in Dallas where he got outclassed by Mike Bibby and Tony Parker.

[ElNono]

Tim Duncan can hit an 18-foot jumper consistently, but is that what you want him to do all game long? Spurs fans seem to have a short memory, I could've sworn he took it to the rim repeatedly in our series a year ago. What makes Dirk so dangerous is he's a 7-footer that can play like a guard. He doesn't back guys down with his back to the basket, even on his drives he scores facing the hoop.

Exactly my point. He's a 7 footer playing the power forward position, but he plays like a guard. Should he have any resemblance of a post game, he would have made short work of the Warriors (for further evidence look at Spurs vs Warriors this season). And about our series a year ago, I don't have short memory. If TD has somewhat of a decent foot, half of those drives are blocked shots.


Sigh, here we go again - Dirk is a decent help defender and bad on the ball defender. While you're throwing Dirk under the bus, make room for Avery. He's the one who sat Damp and slid Dirk over to Center. Does it make sense for a soccer coach to move his goalie to center-forward? If Pop moved Duncan to shooting guard, do you think Timmy could keep opposing two's in front of him? And did you watch the playoffs? Barnes is a pretty good player. Just because he doesn't have a huge contract or endorsement deals or has been underestimated by Maurice Cheeks doesn't mean he can't play.

The sole fact that you have to bring one of his teammates (an actual defender) reinforces what I'm trying to say. If Diop/Dampier are not in the paint, your team basically has no interior defense. Freaking Oberto is 'a good help defender'. And please refrain from trying to make it sound like some players are better than what they are. What's next? Barnes an All Star?



Hmm, Dirk's also a gym rat that works on his game, he takes the blame when things go wrong and always makes sure to credit his teammates and coaches when things go well. And he was willing to go outside his comfort zone and do what was requested of him by Avery after Nellie left. Yeah, that's "zero leadership."

What does working hard on the gym has anything to do with leadership? A leader doesn't hide when the game is on the line. A leader asks for the ball, and has plays called for him, and he makes damn sure he gets the ball and runs the play. Have you ever heard TD say something like 'Yeah, Oberto played really bad'. Do I have to remind you when your leader roasted Dampier on the post-game press conference?
That's actually one thing you have to thank Avery for. He's actually the one that removed the name-calling from the locker room.
And Dirk is going outside his comfort zone because that's what's best not just for the team, but also for himself. You can go so far in this league with just a jump shot and no defense. But *THAT* is Dirk's comfort zone.


Hmm, I guess you missed the Suns getting eliminated last year on their home floor when Nash sucked it up. Or maybe all those years in Dallas where he got outclassed by Mike Bibby and Tony Parker.

He's always willing to ask for the ball, create for teammates, and take the difficult shot if needed. He just doesn't have a great team around him, specially the coach imho. TD won back to back MVPs, and he didn't win the championship in one of those. That doesn't mean he wasn't great.

[Findog]

He's a 7 footer playing the power forward position, but he plays like a guard.

That's exactly why he's such a difficult matchup for most teams. He takes bigger guys out on the perimeter. He takes smaller guys to the hoop.


Should he have any resemblance of a post game, he would have made short work of the Warriors (for further evidence look at Spurs vs Warriors this season).

That's not the kind of player he is. Dallas could have sorely used traditional post play against Golden State, but that is Donnie Nelson's fault, not Dirk's. He is what he is.


And about our series a year ago, I don't have short memory. If TD has somewhat of a decent foot, half of those drives are blocked shots.

Have you ever had plantar fascitis? I have. It hurts like hell, but you can play on it. Granted, I never tried to play 80 games in 6 months at NBA speed, but I don't have access to the Spur's medical staff either. In any event, Duncan threw down a 32 and 13 on us in that series. And I've seen him try to guard Dirk. Dirk takes him out to the high post where he's not as effective. We do to San Antonio what Golden State did to us, force the opponent to play small. Bowen can handle Howard or Dirk, but not both.



The sole fact that you have to bring one of his teammates (an actual defender) reinforces what I'm trying to say. If Diop/Dampier are not in the paint, your team basically has no interior defense.

Avery made a tactical mistake in not playing his normal rotation and in trying to adjust to the Warriors instead of forcing them to adjust to us. You can't expect a guy to play one way for 82 games a year and then put him in a completely different spot and expect the same results. Whenever I see Bowen forced to guard Howard and Duncan forced to follow Dirk out to the high post, I don't think to myself "Gee, Duncan sucks," it's just a logical explanation of a traditional 7-footer playing so far from the basket. Dirk has never been asked to play Bill Russell-style defense and anchor a frontline, until the Golden State series. Larry Bird wasn't a Bowen-style shutdown defender, so what exactly is your point?


And please refrain from trying to make it sound like some players are better than what they are. What's next? Barnes an All Star?

Did I say Barnes was an All Star? I simply stated he's a good player and not a scrub. Are you honestly disputing that? Watch teams line up to give this guy a MLE this summer. Lots of players have been posterized when they're the lone guy back guarding the paint, it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, including the guy you're trying to puff up:

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/captpnu11304270535lakers_suns_basketball.jpg





What does working hard on the gym has anything to do with leadership?

Are you serious? Working hard on your game and not coasting on your talent isn't a sign of leadership? Leadership isn't just delivering lockerroom speeches. I would think a Spurs fan would understand this - Duncan is a lead by example, not get in guy's faces and scream a lot type.


A leader doesn't hide when the game is on the line.

Plenty of examples where Dirk has done that. Game 5 against the Suns last year, Game 7 against the Spurs, a 5-0 record in series-deciding games, four of which he played very well. It would be unfair of me to ignore instances where Dirk has failed (Miami, Golden State), and it's unfair of you to ignore instances where he's succeeded.


A leader asks for the ball, and has plays called for him, and he makes damn sure he gets the ball and runs the play.

He's done that plenty of times in the playoffs. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to judge Duncan solely on those 3 years when you guys were getting your asses handed to you by the Lakers?


Have you ever heard TD say something like 'Yeah, Oberto played really bad'. Do I have to remind you when your leader roasted Dampier on the post-game press conference?

Could you find that quote for me, please? Dirk's never explicitly called a guy out by name. I have access to all the game recaps during the Dampier era in Dallas. I have no idea what you're talking about. Concrete, specific examples. Dampier didn't even play against Golden State, so I don't know what you're talking about.


That's actually one thing you have to thank Avery for. He's actually the one that removed the name-calling from the locker room.

I was referring to national media types and kneejerk fans. Let's take the guy's entire body of work into account, the times he's succeeded and the times he's failed, and not resort to lame namecalling and potshots.


And Dirk is going outside his comfort zone because that's what's best not just for the team, but also for himself. You can go so far in this league with just a jump shot and no defense. But *THAT* is Dirk's comfort zone.

Dirk was asked to do something in the Warrior series for which he is not equipped. How well do you think Duncan would play if Pop moved him to shooting guard? Do you think he could keep his man in front of him? How about moving Parker to the 4? Do you think he could avoid getting dunked on? How about running plays for Bowen and asking Bruce to create for himself instead of just shooting open treys from the corner?

[resistanze]

Just to clarify...Tim Duncan DID win the championship when he won his second MVP, 2002-03.

[baseline bum]

I will just simply disagree. The entire Mavs team underachieved in that series, from the coaching staff to the players, with the exception of maybe Diop. And when your sixth-best player is the only guy to show up, you're not going to win.

Do you think that the GS-Dal series is that big of an upset? Dallas's team efficiency ratings projected them at 60 wins, about what they did the last two years but they got 67, mainly going fifth gear against a bunch of teams packing it in for a chance at Oden. And the Warriors were a much better team after that trade. I think they would've won 50-55 if they had been healthy and together all year. A 55-win team beating a 60-win team doesn't seem like anything more than a mild upset, does it?

Yes, that was a monster upset. Did you watch the way Utah handed Golden State their asses in five? The Warriors were your typical Western Conference 8-seed. They played like crap most of the season, got hot at the end, and then pretty much won out to sneak into the postseason while the contenders were resting for the playoffs. Just like the 05 Nuggets. Just like the 06 Kings.

Golden State is fun to watch, but their gimmick offense isn't built for postseason success.

[zrinkill]

Dirk ..... he is soft.

[td4mvp21]

Including a bushel of wins over teams tanking for Oden. It's one of the least impressive 67 win seasons ever. Based on their efficiency stats, they were a 60 win team, not a 67 win team. If the regular season doesn't matter, why do Spurs fans keep pointing to that gaudy record as proof of anything that matters instead of the fool's gold that it really is?



Homecourt is overrated. It's nice to have, but you don't need it to win a series.



Wouldn't have beaten the Spurs.


All of what you just said contradicts what every Mavs fan was saying over the course of the season. It was a choke job, don't try to make it sound like it wasn't. The Mavs had a better team than the Warriors-they had a better superstar, better supporting cast, better defense, better rebounding, supposedly better chemistry, and definitely better coaching. All of that went to shit in that series, GS was better at virtually everything the Mavs did. That would be called a choke job. The Mavs are chokers, Dirk's a choker, it's a choke job.

[Findog]

All of what you just said contradicts what every Mavs fan was saying over the course of the season.

Huh? I am making an argument based on what I saw and observed, I'm not responsible for what other people say and observe. Reading this board the past year, I thought "all Mavs fans" were trolls, now they're suddenly basketball authorities. Pick a lane please.


It was a choke job, don't try to make it sound like it wasn't.

It was one team losing based on being outcoached, outexecuted and X's and O's.


That would be called a choke job.

Coughing up a 2-0 lead in the Finals is a chokejob. Losing to Golden State is not.

[td4mvp21]

Huh? I am making an argument based on what I saw and observed, I'm not responsible for what other people say and observe. Reading this board the past year, I thought "all Mavs fans" were trolls, now they're suddenly basketball authorities. Pick a lane please.



It was one team losing based on being outcoached, outexecuted and X's and O's.



Coughing up a 2-0 lead in the Finals is a chokejob. Losing to Golden State is not.

Uh, we had to endure months of preaching about how the Mavs were the best team ever and were going to beat the Spurs on their way to the Finals. And then, oops! They lose to GS and the whole season turns into a joke? They lost to a better team in the first round? Yeah fucking right. Give me a break. That's pathetic. The Warriors were your typical 8 seed, and I won't repeat what all baseline bum said because he is exactly right. The Warriors fit the 8-seed mold perfectly. The Mavs just choked. But you can keep trying to deny it, it's not like that will change the fact that it happened.

[Findog]

[Uh, we had to endure months of preaching about how the Mavs were the best team ever and were going to beat the Spurs on their way to the Finals.

I'm sure you can cry yourself to sleep at night at the horror of that with the newest addition to the Spurs trophy case. Every fanbase has its bandwagon idiots.


the Warriors were your typical 8 seed,

Um, except they weren't. 26-35 on March 4, with Baron Davis and Jason Richardson missing a huge chunk of the season with injuries, and a major talent upgrade after the Dunmurphy/Jax-Harrington trade. They finished 42-40. Are you seriously suggesting that they would've finished 42-40 if their starting backcourt had been healthy all year long and they had that roster together all year long? Jason Richardson missed 30 games. Baron Davis missed 19. Do you think San Antonio would've finished 58-24 if they lost a combined 49 games due to injury from Parker and Manu? How well do you think San Antonio would do if Barry and Vaughn take TP/Manu's minutes?

[John Kerry]

The Warriors looked very 8-seedish against the Jazz.

[DarkReign]

Uh, Dirk's PER against Golden State was over 20. His regular season PER was 27. Over 20 is all-star caliber, 27 is MVP. Dirk wasn't even the main culprit for his team's demise. He deserves legitimate criticism for not measuring up to his regular season peformance, but he's not the main reason his team lost, especially considering Avery sat Damp and moved Dirk over to the C. Imagine a goalie being moved to center-forward and it's easy to understand the slight drop-off in his performance.

Did you even watch those games? If you had, perhaps you might've noticed Avery getting worked like a punching bag at the hands of Nellie...or JET unable to hit water from a boat. Or Buckner and George having PER's under 5.

I would think Spurs fans of all people would know by now not to underestimate the guy.

Wait, wait, wait....did I just see someone use some pseudo metric like PER as proof of NOT being a choker?!

Wow....

[baseline bum]

Wouldn't it be ridiculous to judge Duncan solely on those 3 years when you guys were getting your asses handed to you by the Lakers?

The Spurs got beat by LA two years, 2001 and 2002. Here's Duncan's stats in those two series:

01 WCF
game 1 - 28 pts, 14 reb, 5blk, 6 ast
game 2 - 40 pts, 15 reb, 4 blk, 3 ast
game 3 - 9 pts, 13 reb, 5 blk, 7 ast
game 4 - 15 pts, 7 reb, 4 blk, 1 ast

02 WCSF
game 1 - 26 pts, 21 reb, 4 blk, 5 ast
game 2 - 27 pts, 17 reb, 5 blk, 5 ast
game 3 - 28 pts, 12 reb, 1 blk, 3 ast
game 4 - 30 pts, 11 reb, 4 blk, 6 ast
game 5 - 34 pts, 25 reb, 1 blk, 4 ast

Duncan does pretty well if you judge him by the years he was beaten by LA. 2 bad games to go with 7 dominant ones, and game 4 of the WCF Duncan was pulled early because the game and series were over at halftime.

26.3 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 3.67 bpg, 4.44 apg in those two series... Duncan was clearly not the reason the Spurs lost.

================================================== ========

Dirk?

06 Finals
game 1 - 16 pts, 10 reb, 4 ast, 0 blk
game 2 - 26 pts, 16 reb, 4 ast, 2 blk
game 3 - 30 pts, 7 reb, 1 ast, 0 blk
game 4 - 16 pts, 9 reb, 1 ast, 0 blk
game 5 - 20 pts, 8 reb, 3 ast, 0 blk
game 6 - 29 pts, 15 reb, 2 ast, 2blk

07 First round
game 1 - 14 pts, 12 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk
game 2 - 23 pts, 7 reb, 0 ast, 2 blk
game 3 - 20 pts, 12 reb, 2 ast, 1 blk
game 4 - 23 pts, 15 reb, 3 ast, 1 blk
game 5 - 23 pts, 8 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk
game 6 - 8 pts, 10 reb, 2 ast, 0 blk

20.67 ppg, 10.75 rpg, 2.58 apg, 0.917 bpg

Dirk had 3 stinkers in the Finals, and 3 in the first round (including a Karl Malone-esque 8 points in the elimination game). Dirk had 3 dominant games out of 12 in loss, so you have to put the blame on the superstar. Duncan killed in 7 of the 9 games vs LA. Duncan's 3rd worst game was better than Dirk's 3rd best.

[Short Round]

Dirk a choker! No way he survive spike room like me!

[Findog]

The Spurs got beat by LA two years, 2001 and 2002. Here's Duncan's stats in those two series:

01 WCF
game 1 - 28 pts, 14 reb, 5blk, 6 ast
game 2 - 40 pts, 15 reb, 4 blk, 3 ast
game 3 - 9 pts, 13 reb, 5 blk, 7 ast
game 4 - 15 pts, 7 reb, 4 blk, 1 ast

02 WCSF
game 1 - 26 pts, 21 reb, 4 blk, 5 ast
game 2 - 27 pts, 17 reb, 5 blk, 5 ast
game 3 - 28 pts, 12 reb, 1 blk, 3 ast
game 4 - 30 pts, 11 reb, 4 blk, 6 ast
game 5 - 34 pts, 25 reb, 1 blk, 4 ast

Duncan does pretty well if you judge him by the years he was beaten by LA. 2 bad games to go with 7 dominant ones, and game 4 of the WCF Duncan was pulled early because the game and series were over at halftime.

26.3 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 3.67 bpg, 4.44 apg in those two series... Duncan was clearly not the reason the Spurs lost.

================================================== ========

Dirk?

06 Finals
game 1 - 16 pts, 10 reb, 4 ast, 0 blk
game 2 - 26 pts, 16 reb, 4 ast, 2 blk
game 3 - 30 pts, 7 reb, 1 ast, 0 blk
game 4 - 16 pts, 9 reb, 1 ast, 0 blk
game 5 - 20 pts, 8 reb, 3 ast, 0 blk
game 6 - 29 pts, 15 reb, 2 ast, 2blk

07 First round
game 1 - 14 pts, 12 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk
game 2 - 23 pts, 7 reb, 0 ast, 2 blk
game 3 - 20 pts, 12 reb, 2 ast, 1 blk
game 4 - 23 pts, 15 reb, 3 ast, 1 blk
game 5 - 23 pts, 8 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk
game 6 - 8 pts, 10 reb, 2 ast, 0 blk

20.67 ppg, 10.75 rpg, 2.58 apg, 0.917 bpg

Dirk had 3 stinkers in the Finals, and 3 in the first round (including a Karl Malone-esque 8 points in the elimination game). Dirk had 3 dominant games out of 12 in loss, so you have to put the blame on the superstar. Duncan killed in 7 of the 9 games vs LA. Duncan's 3rd worst game was better than Dirk's 3rd best.

My bad, I forgot about losing to Phoenix for the first title defense when Duncan got hurt. I'm not comparing Dirk to Duncan directly, as Duncan is clearly the better player. 20, 10 and 3 isn't MVP worthy, but it's not horrible either, is it? And Duncan didn't play way out of position against the Lakers, as Dirk had to do against Golden State. My point is that it's unfair to put the entire blame for Golden State on Dirk. I haven't heard anybody outside of the mav's fanbase acknowledge how badly Avery coached or Jet played, or him and Harris being unable to keep BD in front of them. Dirk played below his standards, but not by nearly as much as perception would suggest.

Nobody can seem to answer the question: how effective do you think Duncan would be if he played PF for 82 games and then slid over to a wing or guard position for a playoff series? Or if Tony Parker had to play like a big? Dirk let his team down against Golden State but he was far from being the only culprit. It's just irritating when people don't take his entire body of work into account and seem to give the rest of the team a pass.

[Findog]

The Warriors looked very 8-seedish against the Jazz.

Well, Senator, the Jazz have something that a smallball team can't handle (Boozer.) And they cancelled out BD with Deron Williams. Warriors had the only blowout win in the series and 3 of their 4 losses went down to the wire. Dallas probably beats the Jazz in a playoff matchup. Rock-Paper-Scissors.

[John Kerry]

Well, Senator, the Jazz have something that a smallball team can't handle (Boozer.) And they cancelled out BD with Deron Williams. Warriors had the only blowout win in the series and 3 of their 4 losses went down to the wire. Dallas probably beats the Jazz in a playoff matchup. Rock-Paper-Scissors.

So Boozer > Dirk?

[baseline bum]

Nobody can seem to answer the question: how effective do you think Duncan would be if he played PF for 82 games and then slid over to a wing or guard position for a playoff series?

Duncan put up 23.3 and 9.00 vs Phoenix and Utah as a rookie before getting injured in game 3 of the Utah series. He played the three, with Robinson at the four and Perdue at center.

[Findog]

So Boozer > Dirk?

When it comes to facing Nellie's version of smallball, yes.

[John Kerry]

When it comes to facing Nellie's version of smallball, yes.

So the reigning MVP can't handle smallball?

[Findog]

Duncan put up 23.3 and 9.00 vs Phoenix and Utah as a rookie before getting injured in game 3 of the Utah series. He played the three, with Robinson at the four and Perdue at center.

Dirk as a C against Golden State: 19, 10 and 3. Not MVP, but not worthy of the piling on either.

[Findog]

So the reigning MVP can't handle smallball?

Not when his coach sits a traditional C and forces him to defensively anchor a frontline. Tim Duncan is the best big in the game. Kobe Bryant is the best wing/guard in the game. For anybody else to win "MVP" is more of an exercise in giving the award to the best player on the best regular season team.

[Johnny RIngo]

BUMP cause Steve Trash needs more votes

[dallaskd]

#1 Findog...if Diop is your 6th best player, you belong NOWHERE in the PLAYOFFS even.

who is the spurs 6th best? beno?

[dallaskd]

btw..stupid thread. both were deserving and both are great players and future Hall Of Famers.

[Johnny RIngo]

btw..stupid thread. both were deserving and both are great players and future Hall Of Famers.

Naw, neither were very deserving. _irk choked and invalidated his MVP. Nash's MVPs belong to Shaq and Kobe. The Phoenix media's done wonders for his overrated ass.

[Leetonidas]

who is the spurs 6th best? beno?
Tim
Tony
Manu
Finley
Bruce
Horry
Oberto
Barry
Elson
Bonner
Beno

It goes probably in that order. Horry >>>>>>> Diop.

[dallaskd]

Tim
Tony
Manu
Finley
Bruce
Horry
Oberto
Barry
Elson
Bonner
Beno

It goes probably in that order. Horry >>>>>>> Diop.

Dirk
Howard
Harris
Terry
Stackhouse
Dampier
George
Diop
Buckner

[Leetonidas]

Dirk
Howard
Harris
Terry
Stackhouse
Dampier
George
Diop
Buckner
Your point? According to your list, Diop is your 8th best player, when someone said he was 6th.

BTW, Dampier as 6th best = :lmao

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk
Howard
Harris
Terry
Stackhouse
Dampier
George
Diop
Buckner


Diop > Hands 'o stone

[dallaskd]

George>Horry

[dallaskd]

Your point? According to your list, Diop is your 8th best player, when someone said he was 6th.

BTW, Dampier as 6th best = :lmao

my 6th best?

[Leetonidas]

my 6th best?
Yes.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Nash or Dirk?

Both play/played on the Mavs
Both are chokers

Which one's the more undeserving MVP?

It's a tough choice for me but I'd have to go with the overrated Nash. His team's loaded with talent: He's got 2 other all-stars on his team, a defensive first team player, sixth man of the year and the Suns still can't dominate any team in the playoffs aside from the Lakers.

LOL at Nash being a choker.

[confined]

It goes probably in that order. Horry >>>>>>> Diop.[/QUOTE]
no, not even close

[confined]

LOL at Nash being a choker.
agreed, he's anything but a choker...some spurs fans are just very, very cocky homers, it's quite annoying actually.

spurs fans = biggest homers ever?

[Findog]

Tim


It goes probably in that order. Horry >>>>>>> Diop.

I'm sure Pop would beg to differ. I'd rather have Diop too.

[Findog]

Dirk
Howard
Harris
Terry
Stackhouse
Dampier
George
Diop
Buckner

LMAO at Horry> Diop. Damp is pretty good for being your sixth-best player. Look at how much worse our defense was against Golden State without him. Dirk's a good help defender and lousy on the ball defender. We had no shot with Dirk having to anchor our frontline on defense. Dampier was hurt far more than the organization let on -- he just had surgery to repair a torn rotator cuff.

[B and P Cats]

I thought this thread was about the worst MVP in the last few DECADES? Not last three years! I guess everyone else was deserving except maybe Nash and Nowitzki?

[Leetonidas]

agreed, he's anything but a choker...some spurs fans are just very, very cocky homers, it's quite annoying actually.

spurs fans = biggest homers ever?
Don't be a fag because one guy said Nash was a choker. I've seen him to do it t us, and to the Mavs and to many others. The guy is as clutch as they come.

[confined]

Don't be a fag because one guy said Nash was a choker. I've seen him to do it t us, and to the Mavs and to many others. The guy is as clutch as they come.
by the way you are one of those cocky homers....horry > diop :rolleyes ...time to start watching basketball yeah?

[Islymore]

uhm... i cant believe ppl are even still trying to defend Dirk and the Mavs for their choke job. i'm over it. i thot most Mavfans had come to the same conclusion - it was a massive TEAM failure, but DIRK quit after game 3 and never showed up *since he is the TEAM leader/star*... but oh well...

I think they equally were worst MVPs. I think one of the yrs Nash got it, Dirk deserved it. The other year, Kobe deserved it and I thot Nash deserved it this year... so... guess I'm all twisted.

[Cry Havoc]

Nobody can seem to answer the question: how effective do you think Duncan would be if he played PF for 82 games and then slid over to a wing or guard position for a playoff series? Or if Tony Parker had to play like a big? Dirk let his team down against Golden State but he was far from being the only culprit. It's just irritating when people don't take his entire body of work into account and seem to give the rest of the team a pass.


I answered this in another thread, but since you're so keen on it, I find it puzzling that you equate Dirk going from the 4 to the 5 to Duncan going from the 4 OR 5 (note that he can adapt to play either) to going to the 2. Uh, what? No player does that, and I say that very aware that you're going to cite GS or Phoenix, but they actually play more of a 1-2-2-3-4 or a 1-2-2-3-3 than a 1-5. Neither team runs a post-up offense, so it's a moot point.

The fact is that Dirk has relied his entire career on either a) shooting over shorter players or b) using the pick to drive around quick defenders to get mismatches. He's never developed any other aspect of his game. He still can't get more than 1 BPG, which is horrible for an MVP Power Forward. He still can't step up in clutch time. And he has absolutely NO post game.

Boozer just ABUSED the Warriors. I would never presume that he's a better player than Dirk, but at least he knows how to round out his skill set to appreciably complement his position.

[Cry Havoc]

by the way you are one of those cocky homers....horry > diop :rolleyes ...time to start watching basketball yeah?

Oh my lord.

Robert Horry is 37 years old, and still managed to get 5 blocks in a single game in the Finals.

Diop plays spot minutes for an aging center, and you're ready to say he's better than a player who was the 3rd best player on a repeat Rockets team?

Horry is still better than Diop today. He's much more versatile, can defend quick 3s, and has a basketball IQ that puts Diop in the cradle with a rattle and little airplanes floating overhead. If Horry had better stamina (read: younger) he'd still start for the Spurs with no questions asked.

[Johnny RIngo]

Horry will probably go down as one of the greatest role players ever.

[confined]

so everyone here is saying ther would take horry over diop?...this is why you arent GMs...

[Johnny RIngo]

so everyone here is saying ther would take horry over diop?...this is why you arent GMs...

I'd take a prime Horry over Diop anyday.

[Cry Havoc]

so everyone here is saying ther would take horry over diop?...this is why you arent GMs...

Let's see....

Defending Centers:
Diop > Horry, though Diop does have those silly foul issues :lol

Defending everyone else:
Horry >>>> Diop

Offense:
Horry >>> Diop

Intangibles:
Horry >>>>>> Diop

Bball IQ:
Horry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Diop.


Anyone who would consider taking Diop is only doing so because he's younger. Horry is (currently) clearly the better player, especially in the post-season.

I mean, Diop did so much for you over the past two non-title runs, right?

[Findog]

I mean, Diop did so much for you over the past two non-title runs, right?

We don't beat you guys without him. We don't beat the Suns without him either. He had a damn good +/- against Golden State too. He's the rare big who has the quickness to play smallball.

[Infinite_limit]

Curry

Game 2 of 2015 Finals

[AlexJones]

Nash or Dirk?

Both play/played on the Mavs
Both are chokers

Which one's the more undeserving MVP?

It's a tough choice for me but I'd have to go with the overrated Nash. His team's loaded with talent: He's got 2 other all-stars on his team, a defensive first team player, sixth man of the year and the Suns still can't dominate any team in the playoffs aside from the Lakers.
Johnny RIngo get your faggot ass back in here, cuntface.

[Thread]

Johnny RIngo (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=4414) get your faggot ass back in here, cuntface.




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