Your Vision

[xrayzebra]

Being the old guy that I am and not really knowing the
age of some of the posters on this board I am wondering
what your vision of the United States is in the future. I see some very
disturbing comments being made and really do wonder
what you want for this country in the future.

I wonder how you really feel about the two parties that
supposedly hold the future, not only for the country, but
yours. I wonder if you ever look back on what made the
country great. What the values were that made the country.
What vaues you see in the future.

[medstudent]

I know it sounds naive, but I want a unified country the way it was on 9/12/2001. No bickering, squabbling, or petty arguing. We need real soultions to our problems and partisan bullshit gets in the way of real work getting done. Two people disagree.... ok, find a way to compromise to make it work so that everyone is at least partially happy.

We need to solve the healthcare crisis, get out of debt, fix the trade defecit, restructure social security, enforce the borders while allowing for cheap Mexican labor, and educate our children.

With all the challenges we are faced with abroad, we really do need to come together, and we need politicians that will foster that spirit. That is what made our country great. Our history is filled with people that said poor vs rich, white vs black, dem vs repub doesnt matter, we're all Americans. This bullshit of gaining power and then hammering your world view down other people's throats isnt cutting it. All it does is breed discontent and bitterness from the opposition so that when they eventually gain power, they do the same thing.

Ready to sing Kumbaya yet? :lol

[MadDog73]

Until we elect an actual leader, and not somebody who just surrounds themselves with yes men (and women), we will continue to play politics with people's lives.

And unfortunately, I don't seen any real leaders out there. If 2008 turns into Rudy vs Hillary (with Rudy wearing a dress, and Hillary wearing a suit), I may actually not vote for the first time.

[Thunder Dan]

Being the old guy that I am and not really knowing the
age of some of the posters on this board I am wondering
what your vision of the United States is in the future. I see some very
disturbing comments being made and really do wonder
what you want for this country in the future.

I wonder how you really feel about the two parties that
supposedly hold the future, not only for the country, but
yours. I wonder if you ever look back on what made the
country great. What the values were that made the country.
What vaues you see in the future.


The future is scary for a whole bunch of reasons. I am 24, so I do not know everything there is to know about the world, but I'm sure I know more than I did at 22. After looking into a couple of things, I became a real cinic on the future of our country.

-I am currently working a job that doesn't pay all that well (I just graduated college), yet I have tons of student loans to pay back, and other debts that are incurred during college. So I am asked to put my life on hold so-to-speak so I can pay back this money. Our education system is royally screwed up.

-we owe China more money than I can even grasp to put my mind around, yet we blow close to 2 billion every month on a war that was someone's mistake.

- I make about $400-500 a week and I pay $115 for the bare minumun for Health Insurance. I don't have dental, I don't have vision, but I do have a $600 deductable. It's funny that the people held in Gitmo Bay get FREE health care, including dental, and vision, while all Americans have to pay. Moral of the story: plan a giant terrorist attack and you won't have to pay healthcare.

-Religious Right. Now I consider myself Christian, however I do not think that my faith should be forced upon others. Our govenment is coming closer and closer to doing this by limiting abortions, FCC regualtions, and stem cell research. It has become lobbyists running our government, and imposing their values on others.

-Social Security- why is it that retired people who have sufficient income get paid Social Security? Right now, my grandma who has more money than I can imagine is getting checks every month for social security, and all it does is go in the bank. If our country is so worried about jump starting the economy they should give people social security earlier in life so they can use it on things they would buy when they are younger (homes, cars, ect). Now, I realize my generation will never see a dime of that money, but if I got some (I'm not even saying all) money when I hit 35, it would be better off than going people who have tons of money as it is, or people who should have saved during the big boom of the 60s-80s, but did not do so.

-The War- all this war did was make our lives tougher for the future. It was Bush's mistake to go over there in the first place, and he won't have to pay, but my generation and my unborn kid's generation will. Allt his war will do is create future terrorists. Terrorism will never stop. The saying goes "never say never" but as long as people think for themselves, I'm saying never. I don't care if Ghandi came over and justfully killed my father who was creating Atom bombs in my basement, you can bet I will devote my life to killing Ghandi followers. This war is no different. Those people do not like us, thats ok. Mabye the reasons they don't like us is becuase we try to impose our way of living on everyone else.

-Gun control- I am not a hunter so I may be wrong, but is there any reason companies should make semi automatic hand guns? Our 2nd ammendment is out dated. If we stuck by everything in our Constitution I would own workers to work on my plantation. Obviously some things are updated. I don't think that our fore fathers would have a big objection to limiting the sale of guns, or banshing it all together when they look at the state of our world right now. Look at the Va Tech killer, and how easy it was for him to get 2 guns. Now I know most people are responsible gun owners, but the minority spoils it for the majority. But lets be honest, this isn't the wild west when you need to 6-shooters on your hip to go to the store, though funny as it is, the U.S. has passed laws to make that wild west dream come true.



See I'm just 24, and there are tons of things I see and why I think this world is screwed up. I might be wrong on some but only time will tell.

[Thunder Dan]

I know it sounds naive, but I want a unified country the way it was on 9/12/2001. No bickering, squabbling, or petty arguing. We need real soultions to our problems and partisan bullshit gets in the way of real work getting done. Two people disagree.... ok, find a way to compromise to make it work so that everyone is at least partially happy.

We need to solve the healthcare crisis, get out of debt, fix the trade defecit, restructure social security, enforce the borders while allowing for cheap Mexican labor, and educate our children.

With all the challenges we are faced with abroad, we really do need to come together, and we need politicians that will foster that spirit. That is what made our country great. Our history is filled with people that said poor vs rich, white vs black, dem vs repub doesnt matter, we're all Americans. This bullshit of gaining power and then hammering your world view down other people's throats isnt cutting it. All it does is breed discontent and bitterness from the opposition so that when they eventually gain power, they do the same thing.

Ready to sing Kumbaya yet? :lol


I totally agree. The Democrat/Republican labeling bullshit is what will hold our country back from future progress.

[ChumpDumper]

We'll be fine if we just build a fence to keep the gays from marrying.

[medstudent]

solid post Thunder Dan :tu

fuckin A

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well if we can stop gays from marrying the universe may not implode on itself.

[Thunder Dan]

Well if we can stop gays from marrying the universe may not implode on itself.


See thats another thing I can't understand. Marraige has already become a mockery with over 50% of them failing, so if our reasoning for not letting gays marry is to "behold the sancitity of marraige" haven't we already failed? Now I'm not gay, and I don't think I know anyone who is (except mabye a guy who cut my hair once in Chicago) but I think that there is so much hate and other terrible shit going on in the world that if 2 people want to get married, who gives a shit? We have other problems going on in the world to worry about. I would much rather my govenment Nationalize heathcare or get my friends in Iraq home than save me for 2 people that love eachother from getting married.

[xrayzebra]

We'll be fine if we just build a fence to keep the gays from marrying.


Well if we can stop gays from marrying the universe may not implode on itself.

Now you understand why I worry about the future of this
country. Ignore the question, just make a jest of the
whole issue.

[ChumpDumper]

I believe sarcasm will be this country's downfall.

[DarkReign]

I'll be 27 this year.

I have been a misogynist for as long as I can remember. I have no faith in the people I meet, the person on television or the politician espousing his "views".

I greet people I hate with handshakes and smiles, I entertain conversations with people I wouldnt shed a tear for if they swerved off the road and died. I walk the path most traveled, making me as insignificant and as petty as everyone else I encounter.

I am sure the same is said of me by others, but considering the fact that I think theyre just walking wastes of valuable oxygen, I couldnt care less what those people think.

When I was a a youngin' (under 10), I had this glorious outlook on life and dreamed of a better future. As one gets slightly older, those dreams are recognized for what they were...a romanticizing of an adolescent mind ungrounded in fact, reality and basic human nature.

The truth is, the world is an uncontrollable ball of hate that just hurtles thru space in a cyclical pattern that is neither predictable or malleable. The ability to effect true change in this world was lost well before I was born.

Thank God for the internet. Not only has it reinforced every suspicion I had of people, society and the ills that lie in us all, but the rapid exchange of information/ideas/doctrine has only furthered the division between "Us" and "Them". I say "Good on you!"

See, I am done thinking the problems we face even have a solution. The world and its denizens are in no hurry to drop hostility and join together in a global singing of Kumbaya. And even if they were, "They" would use that opportunity to conquer "Us" anyway. Its lose-lose, really.

So, I have come to find hope. Hope that I will see something significant before I die. Hope that maybe, just maybe, my generation will do what past generations have not had the technical capability to do.

I am living my life with no regret, no remorse and no eye toward the end. I am getting married. I will probably have children (God help them). I go to work everyday and am mildly successful for my age. I go to the family reunions and mourn the losses we all endure.

But beyond all that, I have resigned myself to obscurity and general Joe Schmo status. The dream of youth died quite some time ago and I am okay with that.

Staying informed and actively seeking every tidbit of information on current political climate and world event has lost its luster. We are all at the mercy of our Masters and there isnt a damn thing you or I can do about it.

I change the channel any time a politician mentions the word "change" because the simple act of those sleazy bastards using such a profound word in the midst of pandering to the lowest common denominator lost its meaning when they cashed checks from the same sources.

This country is not; For the People, By the People. Its; For Us, By Us. Be damned if you arent with "Us".

I sincerely hope someone/some country fucks the whole system up somehow and starts the beginning of the end. Because I want to see it. I want to be there, sitting on my back porch with a Labatt Blue in one hand, a joint in the other, my family around me when it all goes down. I want to see the end, I dont even care if I survive (bonus if I do).

When I am dead, and standing at the Gates I want to be able to say "I seen the day that started the end of the Human Plague. I bore witness to the futility of His experiment. I saw."

I am still a pretty avid Tool fan, and I found this song to be profound in my own stupid way.


Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that
Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys,
Where there's one you're bound to divide it.
Right in two.

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason.
And this is what they choose.
And this is what they choose...

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs,
They forge a blade,
And where there's one
they're bound to divide it,
Right in two.
Right in two.

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey.
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs.
They make a club.

And beat their brother, down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.

Repugnant is a creature who would squander
the ability to lift an eye to heaven,
conscious of his fleeting time here.

Cut it all right in two
Cut it all right in two
Cut it all right in two
Cut it all right in two

Fight over the clouds, over wind, over sky
They fight over lies, over blood, over anger and rage,
Fight over love, over sun,
over night, they fight till they die,
over one, for their lives beginning.

Angels on the sideline again.
Been so long with patience and reason.
Angels on the sideline again
Wondering when this tug of war will end.

Cut it all right in two
Cut it all right in two
Cut it all right in two

RIGHT IN TWO!

Right in two...

[medstudent]

http://barackobama.bookslog.net/images/books/large/barack-obama-audacity-of-hope.jpg

[BradLohaus]

I see a single North American currency in our future because it is the only way to keep the collapse of the financial system from becoming the Great Depression part 2. The ones who will rescue us with this new currency will be the same people who set the inevitable collapse in motion.

The political parties, TV networks, newspapers, and publishing houses will continue to be owned at the top by a few major corporations, so nothing substantial will change for the better for the rest of us. The government will continue to grow and become more intrusive.

I'm just going to stop there. I try to hope for the best, but it's hard to ignore reality.

[Ballcox]

Wow, some very interesting and thought provoking takes on this question. I hardly ever come to the political forum, but when I do I'm always impressed by the different points of view and how clearly they're stated.

For me, at age 36 I try not to consider the 'big' picture too much. I find that it is almost too much to consider, to take in all at once. What I try to do is make positive changes on a daily basis with my own life and the life of my family. I try to be a good role model to my children and a faithful husband to my wife. I guess it's kind of the pebble in a pond analogy, as corny as that sounds. If I can create positive change in my life and also role model that lifestyle/belief/vaule system to my family, then my hope is that they can also produce positive changes in this world that can have a positive effect on their environment.

My worry at this point is that people just don't seem to care about each other anymore. We are becoming a society that is more and more isolated and has less concern for the well being of other human beings. Can I change this paradigm all at once? No, I cannot. But what I can do is make small changes in my life and the life of my children and they can hopefully expand that idea/concept to people they come into contact with on a daily basis.

I really don't have much else to go on at this point, there are too many troubles/problems in this world to analyze or understand all at once. But what I refuse to do is give in or play a part in this bleak picture. I can still have a choice on a daily basis to effect my environment in a positive manner. As I get older it seems more difficult to do, but I'm not ready to give up at this point.

[spurster]

My vision is that the goals of this country return to its roots "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ("happiness" here does not mean gratification, but a good life). We need to recognize that all people have natural rights, which we should strive to uphold and respect. We need to seriously address energy independence, global warming, education, national security, health insurance, immigration, globalization etc. not with quick fixes, but with long-term solutions. We need to reduce the corruption of both parties in government by providing public financing of campaigns.

[xrayzebra]

Some great thoughts on this thread. I especially like to last
post by Ballcox.

A little perceptive from my point of view. Understand this is how
I have viewed life, not the last word on the changing world in my
lifetime.

I was born and raised in a small town in North Texas. Most
people lived as Ballcox tries to live his life. Just taking care of
family and trying their best to set a good example. And
taking care of neighbors when they needed help or were facing
a death in the family.

My Grandparents were all farmers, and I might add dyed in
woods Democrats, my Father was a good Democrat also. But not Democrats
as they are today, the Democrats of old were more like the
Republicans of today. They were very conservative and
progressive in the true sense of the word. The reason Texas
government was one of the best in the United States, we had
the best highways, best water conservation and always low
taxes. Most people in Texas, Anglos and blacks were, what
you would consider now days poor. Not hungry poor or
clothes poor or housing poor, just money poor. Notice I didn't
say anything about Mexicans. There were none in my part of
the country or hometown, take that back, there was one family.
The father came there when a band he played in came to play
at a hotel. They had two sons, I went to school with the oldest.
And they lived in my neighborhood. His father quit the band
and went to work for the local Pontiac dealer, where he stayed
until he retired. On visits there I used to see their Mom, the
Father had died, and she caught me up on all the latest with
the two boys. One became a commerical artist and I cant
remember what the other did right off hand.

Anyhow, politicians were known in those days to be full of it, but
when it came down to the nut cutting they always came down
on the side of country, not party. I can still hearing my
Grandfather ranting about the county commissioners. He had
a real thing about them, I could never figure out why. Maybe
because he was closely associated with them because he
farmed and they took care of roads and bridges.

Telephones lines to farms were maintained by the farmers
themselves, not Ma Bell. My Granddads number which I
can still remember 9014F3, and his ring was three longs and
a short. And by the way, privacy was not expected, phone rang
everyone picked up and joined in on the conversation....LOL.

Never bought a watermelon in my life until I was grown.
Fresh veggies were a given for all that could get out of town
and visit friends that farmed. Promise you they never left
empty handed, even in the winter, a jar or preserves or jar
of canned beans was always available.

I moved from my hometown when a young man and went
into the service. I spent most of my career in the military
overseas, my job was needed overseas so I would get about
18 months in the states and right back over again I would go.
Because of this I was exposed to many cultures and lived on
the economy in all type of conditions. I was very fortunate
in most cases since I did have facilities to shop at to buy goods
not readily available to the local populations. I have lived in
the ME for a couple of years among Muslims and had long
conversations with many of them about my religion and their
religion. Surprisingly, at least to me, their book of worship
corresponds to ours in many respects. One of their big
religious holidays, Ramadan, celebrates when Abraham goes
up on the mountain to sacrifice one of his sons and God
sends down the sheep. At the end of Ramadan many Muslims
do just that sacrifice a sheep in celebration.

I have seen our country change in so many ways. I think the
really first big change started with the covair auto and
Ralph Nadar. You more than likely think that strange. But
in those days people were so trusting of the media and
respectful of those that publish books that they took every
thing at face value, including myself. Now look at how people
view the media. I know I started loosing my faith in media
when Walter Cronkite started being, what I consider, an absolute
traitor to his country. I know that statement should bring up
the hackles of some on this board.

But to close this out, I am sure some have already tired
of reading my rant, I look at the language of some of the
posters and I have to wonder. I was brought up to show
respect, I can curse with the best, believe me, I know all the
words and then some. But I am sure ladies come on this board
and I have no idea what they are, but until proven otherwise,
I have to assume they are ladies and I wouldn't use language
like that in front of them. Why others do in this day in time,
I have to assume they do not know better.

People complain about the education of our young folks, especially
College professors, but can I ask a simple question. Who teaches
these young folks, mostly Liberals. They complain about we
are falling behind other countries, again I ask who are the
teachers, mostly liberals. We complain about road rage, but
what has most of the young people been taught, me first!

Now, one other thing. Most have now been conditioned to
thinking government can do everything. In my younger years,
government was thought of for only the very basic things.
Welfare, was just that, welfare. You needed food, you stood in
line and the government would give you the basics to live on,
food itself. Remember something, most people belong to
churches, and the congregation took care of their own as well
as helping others outside of the church. Government was not
designed or intended to be the end all for everything.

Sorry I took so much space. There is much more I would like
to say, but I am sure some on here will take offense with what
I have already said.

[Mr. Peabody]

People complain about the education of our young folks, especially
College professors, but can I ask a simple question. Who teaches
these young folks, mostly Liberals. They complain about we
are falling behind other countries, again I ask who are the
teachers, mostly liberals. We complain about road rage, but
what has most of the young people been taught, me first!



I take no offense to what you have said, but I do have a question. You assert that most of the teachers in this country are liberals. I don't know that this is a true statement, but for the sake of argument I will assume that it is. In your opinion, why are most teachers liberals? Is it something about the profession that makes people more liberal or do liberals tend to gravitate towards the teaching profession?

[xrayzebra]

No I may have painted with too wide a brush about teachers, I have
two daughters who are teachers, one is a flower child of old,
but not a liberal in the true sense of the word. She has children
of her own and I can promise you they have a more freedom than
I gave her, but she is very conservative with them. Actually
she is a great mom who works hard with her kids. The other
is definitely not a flower child and is definitely very conservative
and good mom too.

I really don't know the answer to the questions you pose. They
are good questions. Maybe, just maybe, it is the thought or
teaching that we must do something for the good of mankind
while we are here on earth. And young folks don't understand
that they are doing something good if they raise their families
to be God fearing solid hard working people who only want
the best for their families and help their neighbors when help
is needed. But that really isn't a good answer to your question.

One thing I do know, the one daughter who teaches in public
schools has a hard time with administration because of
discipline problems and being pushed to pass people who are
not ready for a higher grade. She also has problems with
parents who could care less about the child not learning or
completing class assignments. And the fact some parents are
just not parents and show a complete disregard for their
children.

[clambake]

Do you think all kids should be taught and raised to fear god?

[xrayzebra]

clam, don't get your pants in a wad. It is an expression. I think
all children should be taught the moral principles that God taught
and teaches. I think they should be taught the principles that
made this country what is WAS. And that is all I will say on
religion. I have no desire or wish to get involved in an argument
on the issue.

[Mr. Peabody]

Do you think all kids should be taught and raised to fear god?

I think all kids should be taught and raised to respect and fear some higher authority; be it God, parents, the law, etc.

[Mr. Peabody]

clam, don't get your pants in a wad. It is an expression. I think
all children should be taught the moral principles that God taught
and teaches. I think they should be taught the principles that
made this country what is WAS. And that is all I will say on
religion. I have no desire or wish to get involved in an argument
on the issue.

Believe or not xray, I agree with you. The moral principles taught in the Bible are fairly universal and it would be a great thing if we could get our kids to follow those principles. I am not saying that they must be taught in the form of Christian religion or any religion, but I do think they should be taught in some form or fashion.

[clambake]

I think all kids should be taught and raised to respect and fear some higher authority; be it God, parents, the law, etc.
I don't teach fear, I teach respect. Respect of the known, not fear of the unknown.

[clambake]

by xray= I have lived in
the ME for a couple of years among Muslims and had long
conversations with many of them about my religion and their
religion. Surprisingly, at least to me, their book of worship
corresponds to ours in many respects. One of their big
religious holidays, Ramadan, celebrates when Abraham goes
up on the mountain to sacrifice one of his sons and God
sends down the sheep. At the end of Ramadan many Muslims
do just that sacrifice a sheep in celebration.
How does that make you feel about the 1st commandment?

[Mr. Peabody]

I don't teach fear, I teach respect. Respect of the known, not fear of the unknown.

I've always felt that there is a little bit of fear that often accompanies respect. However, that's just my view on things.

As far as the known and unknown, it really doesn't matter how you get kids to learn moral principles. Any reasonable method would be better than not teaching them at all.

[clambake]

:toast
I've always felt that there is a little bit of fear that often accompanies respect. However, that's just my view on things.

As far as the known and unknown, it really doesn't matter how you get kids to learn moral principles. Any reasonable method would be better than not teaching them at all.

[Thunder Dan]

I take no offense to what you have said, but I do have a question. You assert that most of the teachers in this country are liberals. I don't know that this is a true statement, but for the sake of argument I will assume that it is. In your opinion, why are most teachers liberals? Is it something about the profession that makes people more liberal or do liberals tend to gravitate towards the teaching profession?

Liberal teachers are better since they will allow their students to grow. Going to school isn't all about education, it's about growing into yourself, and gaining thoughts of your own. I don't think teachers are forcing liberal politics down their students' throats, but I think they allow their students to think freely on the subjects covered. I think this is a good thing to let students adapt and interpret the material as it applies to them.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Wow, some very interesting and thought provoking takes on this question. I hardly ever come to the political forum, but when I do I'm always impressed by the different points of view and how clearly they're stated.

For me, at age 36 I try not to consider the 'big' picture too much. I find that it is almost too much to consider, to take in all at once. What I try to do is make positive changes on a daily basis with my own life and the life of my family. I try to be a good role model to my children and a faithful husband to my wife. I guess it's kind of the pebble in a pond analogy, as corny as that sounds. If I can create positive change in my life and also role model that lifestyle/belief/vaule system to my family, then my hope is that they can also produce positive changes in this world that can have a positive effect on their environment.

My worry at this point is that people just don't seem to care about each other anymore. We are becoming a society that is more and more isolated and has less concern for the well being of other human beings. Can I change this paradigm all at once? No, I cannot. But what I can do is make small changes in my life and the life of my children and they can hopefully expand that idea/concept to people they come into contact with on a daily basis.

I really don't have much else to go on at this point, there are too many troubles/problems in this world to analyze or understand all at once. But what I refuse to do is give in or play a part in this bleak picture. I can still have a choice on a daily basis to effect my environment in a positive manner. As I get older it seems more difficult to do, but I'm not ready to give up at this point.

Yes. People don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bastard did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a shit about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

[George Gervin's Afro]

Some great thoughts on this thread. I especially like to last
post by Ballcox.

A little perceptive from my point of view. Understand this is how
I have viewed life, not the last word on the changing world in my
lifetime.

I was born and raised in a small town in North Texas. Most
people lived as Ballcox tries to live his life. Just taking care of
family and trying their best to set a good example. And
taking care of neighbors when they needed help or were facing
a death in the family.

My Grandparents were all farmers, and I might add dyed in
woods Democrats, my Father was a good Democrat also. But not Democrats
as they are today, the Democrats of old were more like the
Republicans of today. They were very conservative and
progressive in the true sense of the word. The reason Texas
government was one of the best in the United States, we had
the best highways, best water conservation and always low
taxes. Most people in Texas, Anglos and blacks were, what
you would consider now days poor. Not hungry poor or
clothes poor or housing poor, just money poor. Notice I didn't
say anything about Mexicans. There were none in my part of
the country or hometown, take that back, there was one family.
The father came there when a band he played in came to play
at a hotel. They had two sons, I went to school with the oldest.
And they lived in my neighborhood. His father quit the band
and went to work for the local Pontiac dealer, where he stayed
until he retired. On visits there I used to see their Mom, the
Father had died, and she caught me up on all the latest with
the two boys. One became a commerical artist and I cant
remember what the other did right off hand.

Anyhow, politicians were known in those days to be full of it, but
when it came down to the nut cutting they always came down
on the side of country, not party. I can still hearing my
Grandfather ranting about the county commissioners. He had
a real thing about them, I could never figure out why. Maybe
because he was closely associated with them because he
farmed and they took care of roads and bridges.

Telephones lines to farms were maintained by the farmers
themselves, not Ma Bell. My Granddads number which I
can still remember 9014F3, and his ring was three longs and
a short. And by the way, privacy was not expected, phone rang
everyone picked up and joined in on the conversation....LOL.

Never bought a watermelon in my life until I was grown.
Fresh veggies were a given for all that could get out of town
and visit friends that farmed. Promise you they never left
empty handed, even in the winter, a jar or preserves or jar
of canned beans was always available.

I moved from my hometown when a young man and went
into the service. I spent most of my career in the military
overseas, my job was needed overseas so I would get about
18 months in the states and right back over again I would go.
Because of this I was exposed to many cultures and lived on
the economy in all type of conditions. I was very fortunate
in most cases since I did have facilities to shop at to buy goods
not readily available to the local populations. I have lived in
the ME for a couple of years among Muslims and had long
conversations with many of them about my religion and their
religion. Surprisingly, at least to me, their book of worship
corresponds to ours in many respects. One of their big
religious holidays, Ramadan, celebrates when Abraham goes
up on the mountain to sacrifice one of his sons and God
sends down the sheep. At the end of Ramadan many Muslims
do just that sacrifice a sheep in celebration.

I have seen our country change in so many ways. I think the
really first big change started with the covair auto and
Ralph Nadar. You more than likely think that strange. But
in those days people were so trusting of the media and
respectful of those that publish books that they took every
thing at face value, including myself. Now look at how people
view the media. I know I started loosing my faith in media
when Walter Cronkite started being, what I consider, an absolute
traitor to his country. I know that statement should bring up
the hackles of some on this board.

But to close this out, I am sure some have already tired
of reading my rant, I look at the language of some of the
posters and I have to wonder. I was brought up to show
respect, I can curse with the best, believe me, I know all the
words and then some. But I am sure ladies come on this board
and I have no idea what they are, but until proven otherwise,
I have to assume they are ladies and I wouldn't use language
like that in front of them. Why others do in this day in time,
I have to assume they do not know better.

People complain about the education of our young folks, especially
College professors, but can I ask a simple question. Who teaches
these young folks, mostly Liberals. They complain about we
are falling behind other countries, again I ask who are the
teachers, mostly liberals. We complain about road rage, but
what has most of the young people been taught, me first!

Now, one other thing. Most have now been conditioned to
thinking government can do everything. In my younger years,
government was thought of for only the very basic things.
Welfare, was just that, welfare. You needed food, you stood in
line and the government would give you the basics to live on,
food itself. Remember something, most people belong to
churches, and the congregation took care of their own as well
as helping others outside of the church. Government was not
designed or intended to be the end all for everything.

Sorry I took so much space. There is much more I would like
to say, but I am sure some on here will take offense with what
I have already said.



sorry ray but parents have much mroe influence on teaching their children to be selfish. you can try and pin it on teachers but that's a cop out. I tell you what IF YOU can provide one example of how ' liberal teachers teach the me first attitude" I may buy into your theory. Even for you ray this is a ridiculous statement. Always circling back to 'liberals' with you.. if you could I bet you could find someway to tie in the great flood in the bible was caused by liberals.

[Thunder Dan]

Yes. People don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bastard did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a shit about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..



That is the American way though isn't it? I hate to be a pessimist, but look at the state of our country right now. We are direct reflections on what America has become. You don't have to look far either; look at our foreign policy, where we "free" Iraq, when we all know it is doing us more good than it is Iraq. Look at big busniess, most of the companies have turned so corrupt it's shameful, and why isn't anything done with it? Becuase the politicians we elect are just as corrupt as the busniesses are. It's all about money in our country. It's about me bettering myself over you. Sadley, it is what our country is, it's kill or be killed, and it's reflecting into our everyday lives, even when you want to ride the WWII planes.

[Mr. Peabody]

Yes. People don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bastard did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a shit about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

Yeah, there's always going to be people like that and their kids will be worse of for it. A similar thing happened to me on Halloween. On Halloween, we have a big bowl full of candy in front of the house for the kids. I sit out front and when the kids walk up, I tell them that they can take a handful of candy. It's not a big deal because kids generally have small hands. Well, I had these two ladies walk up with their kids and as usual, I told the kids "Go ahead and grab a handful." The two ladies, not the kids, stuck their hands in and just took an obscene amount of candy out of the bowl. They literally took as much candy as they could possibly hold. I was like "What the f-ck." There's still other kids trick or treating and these ladies were being greedy bitches. Contrast that with other parents who tell their kids "Now don't take too much." It's sad that these are the lessons they're teaching their kids.

[Mr. Peabody]

Liberal teachers are better since they will allow their students to grow. Going to school isn't all about education, it's about growing into yourself, and gaining thoughts of your own. I don't think teachers are forcing liberal politics down their students' throats, but I think they allow their students to think freely on the subjects covered. I think this is a good thing to let students adapt and interpret the material as it applies to them.

Yeah, but I wasn't making a judgment call as to which is the better teacher. I was just asking why teachers tend to be liberal. Are they liberal before the job and that's why they take the job? Or, does the job make them liberal?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah, but I wasn't making a judgment call as to which is the better teacher. I was just asking why teachers tend to be liberal. Are they liberal before the job and that's why they take the job? Or, does the job make them liberal?


My girlfriend has taught for over 10 yrs in a public elementary school. She is not a political person in anyway and does not indentify herself a democrat or republican. The only issue that really fires her up is when Tommy DeLay helped pass a law that teachers who participated in the state retirement program could not collect social security. this includes when a teacher's spouse dies they cannot collect that money either. she was like 'what the f*ck is up with Tom DeLay?" She takes a conservtaive view on somethings and a liberal view on others all while not really knowing. She really get's infuriated when she hears people blame teachers for the public education mess. She blames bad parenting because if a kid isn't disciplined at home they sure as hell won't be in school. So when these kids fail in school because of their out of control behaviour people like ray and Yoni come out and blame her and he fellow teachers for giving a bad education etc..

[Thunder Dan]

My girlfriend has taught for over 10 yrs in a public elementary school. She is not a political person in anyway and does not indentify herself a democrat or republican. The only issue that really fires her up is when Tommy DeLay helped pass a law that teachers who participated in the state retirement program could not collect social security. this includes when a teacher's spouse dies they cannot collect that money either. she was like 'what the f*ck is up with Tom DeLay?" She takes a conservtaive view on somethings and a liberal view on others all while not really knowing. She really get's infuriated when she hears people blame teachers for the public education mess. She blames bad parenting because if a kid isn't disciplined at home they sure as hell won't be in school. So when these kids fail in school because of their out of control behaviour people like ray and Yoni come out and blame her and he fellow teachers for giving a bad education etc..


My mom who has been a teacher for 33 years told me the other day that the "No Child Left Behind" bill was one of the dumbest bills ever passed by an American politician. I think that a mounting of different regulations like that have turned educators against the conservative side of our government.

[xrayzebra]

Yes. People don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bastard did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a shit about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

GGA, do you find a parallel here. Like illegal
immigration. They want the blue airplane ahead of
those who wait patiently for their turn. And now,
may I ask, who wants to support those that want
the blue airplane? Not the conservatives.

[Thunder Dan]

GGA, do you find a parallel here. Like illegal
immigration. They want the blue airplane ahead of
those who wait patiently for their turn. And now,
may I ask, who wants to support those that want
the blue airplane? Not the conservatives.


I consider myself a liberal, however I do not condone illegal immigration. There is a process done to become a citizen of the United States, and that should not be overlooked. I do believe you must allow people from other countries the opportunity to be a citizen here if they can pass through the system the way it is set up. Those to disagree must forget that the only reason we have these freedoms we do are becuase our fore fathers were all immigrents, and this whole country was built and propelled by immigrents.

I think the problem with immigration comes from the security of our boarders, or lack there of. It infurates me to think that Mexicans can get across our boarders with little resistance. Are we not at war? Isn't the #1 thing you do when your at war is secure your own boarder? We spend billions on a stupid war that will end up doing us no good, but we can't figure out how to keep people out of our country? Thats my problem. I also think that there is no problem with kicking out any illegal aliens out of our country, because again, we have a immigration system in place for a reason, we have just not chose to follow it for years.

[George Gervin's Afro]

GGA, do you find a parallel here. Like illegal
immigration. They want the blue airplane ahead of
those who wait patiently for their turn. And now,
may I ask, who wants to support those that want
the blue airplane? Not the conservatives.

G.W. Bush 2 term Republican President

[George Gervin's Afro]

I consider myself a liberal, however I do not condone illegal immigration. There is a process done to become a citizen of the United States, and that should not be overlooked. I do believe you must allow people from other countries the opportunity to be a citizen here if they can pass through the system the way it is set up. Those to disagree must forget that the only reason we have these freedoms we do are becuase our fore fathers were all immigrents, and this whole country was built and propelled by immigrents.

I think the problem with immigration comes from the security of our boarders, or lack there of. It infurates me to think that Mexicans can get across our boarders with little resistance. Are we not at war? Isn't the #1 thing you do when your at war is secure your own boarder? We spend billions on a stupid war that will end up doing us no good, but we can't figure out how to keep people out of our country? Thats my problem. I also think that there is no problem with kicking out any illegal aliens out of our country, because again, we have a immigration system in place for a reason, we have just not chose to follow it for years.


I don't believe this bill grants amnesty like you here Ray say. Of course for emotional points opponents will say anything to kill something they don't like. I heard Tony Snow tell Sean Whannity last night that the 'amnesty rhetoric' was not an accurate assesment of what the bill intends. Whannity couldn't believe that Snow was telling him he was not factually correct. I think this was the first time I enjoyed hearing Tony Snow speak..

[Yonivore]

I don't believe this bill grants amnesty like you here Ray say. Of course for emotional points opponents will say anything to kill something they don't like. I heard Tony Snow tell Sean Whannity last night that the 'amnesty rhetoric' was not an accurate assesment of what the bill intends. Whannity couldn't believe that Snow was telling him he was not factually correct. I think this was the first time I enjoyed hearing Tony Snow speak..
Then tell us how this isn't amnesty.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Then tell us how this isn't amnesty.


from what I remember these folks aren't going to be given citizenship. There are many obstacles ( fees, course, english etc.) that are put into place to ensure that anyone who is interested in becoming a citizien must prove and earn it. Second a big part of the bill is the new law will require much more accountability on companies who hire these folks. these companies will be penalized severely when caught breaking the rules. Snow made the point that we need to know who these people are NOW so the bill addresses this.These illegals MUST make themsleves known to the govt because if they do not (in theory) they should not be able to find any work. I have limited understanding of what various work visas mean but when the illegals register they then apply for these temporary work visas. Snow made the point that you can't tackle only part of the problem and be successful. Snow also mentioned the the bill calls for more border patrol agents continuing the building of the wall to go along with more predator drones etc.. Not a perfect bill but not blanket amnesty either.

[Yonivore]

from what I remember these folks aren't going to be given citizenship. There are many obstacles ( fees, course, english etc.) that are put into place to ensure that anyone who is interested in becoming a citizien must prove and earn it.
None of which will be enforced and all of which is irrelevant since they don't want to become citizens -- they just want to stay here and work or live off our taxes. This bill allows them to remain in the United States pending all this crap that will never come to pass.


Second a big part of the bill is the new law will require much more accountability on companies who hire these folks. these companies will be penalized severely when caught breaking the rules. Snow made the point that we need to know who these people are NOW so the bill addresses this.These illegals MUST make themsleves known to the govt because if they do not (in theory) they should not be able to find any work. I have limited understanding of what various work visas mean but when the illegals register they then apply for these temporary work visas. Snow made the point that you can't tackle only part of the problem and be successful. Snow also mentioned the the bill calls for more border patrol agents continuing the building of the wall to go along with more predator drones etc.. Not a perfect bill but not blanket amnesty either.
The wall was mandated in earlier legislation and has yet to be built. Why should we believe than any of the security features of this bill will be done?

We shouldn't.

Security should come before amnesty. I like Newt Gingrich's plan.



Ten Simple, Direct Steps to a Legal American Immigration System

Keep the 1986 Simpson-Mazzoli commitment and control the border. In The Reagan Diaries (HarperCollins, May 22, 2007), President Ronald Reagan wrote that he was going to sign the Simpson-Mazzoli bill because "it's high time we regained control of our borders and [this] bill will do this." For national security reasons, it is vital we regain control of our border. Congress should pass a narrowly written emergency border bill to finish the necessary fence in less than a year and to have complete border control within two years.

Announce an immediate shift of Internal Revenue Service resources to audit companies that are deliberately hiring people illegally. We do not have to focus on deporting those who want to work. We need to focus on the Americans who are getting richer by deliberately breaking our laws, hiring people illegally and failing to pay taxes. These people are cheating their own country. We should focus on fining and making it economically impractical for Americans to deliberately encourage law breaking. Economic penalties for knowingly hiring someone who is illegal should rise dramatically with each employer (including subcontractors) conviction, making it simply too expensive to cheat. This will eliminate the magnet of illegal jobs, will begin to diminish the flow of new illegal workers and will lead some illegal workers to return home voluntarily.

Outsource to American Express, Visa or MasterCard the job of building a real-time verification system so that honest companies can confirm the legal status of all workers and identify people with forged papers before they hire them as fast as your automatic teller machine identifies you and gives you money in a matter of seconds. We must distinguish between companies that deliberately hire illegal workers and companies that hire people who they believe are legal. It is the government's duty to help this second group of companies by providing a real-time verification system for identifying the legal status of all workers so that it is possible to screen out those with illegal documents. The government should outsource the creation of this system so that it is easy, fast and accurate.

Focus deportation efforts on criminals. Those who claim that opponents of the Bush-Kennedy-McCain bill support mass deportations are simply wrong. We want a system in which honest work is available for law-abiding workers and in which the natural attrition of declining job availability will reduce illegal behavior. However, there is one group that should be deported immediately, and the law should be modified to make it easy to do so. Criminals have no future in America. In every major city and increasingly in small cities and even small towns, gangs have become a problem and people feel a rising sense of insecurity. There are at least 30,000 illegal gang members now in the United States. The system should focus on deporting criminals so that people who are here illegally understand that breaking the law will get them deported immediately.

Cut off all federal aid to any city, county or state that refuses to investigate if a criminal is here illegally. These so-called "sanctuary cities" are in effect abetting the violation of American law and increasing the risk to honest, law-abiding Americans. They should be cut off from all federal aid if they refuse to help enforce federal law.

Offer intensive education in English to anyone who wants to learn English, and make English the official language of government. This will begin to reassert the commitment to assimilation and Americanization that has historically been part of legal immigration to America.

Ensure that becoming an American citizen requires passing a test on American history in English and giving up the right to vote in any other country.

Within the context of these proven changes, establish an economically driven temporary worker program like the Krieble Foundation proposals (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/ct.php?t=1440126&c=1356394122&m=m&type=1&h=4BCDF7D1400F01A3FEBD8BA4F5B15D30). Any temporary worker would have to pass a background check to ensure they are not a criminal, would have to give biometric information (retinal scan and thumbprint) for a special card that would be outsourced to American Express, MasterCard or Visa so it would be harder to defraud and counterfeit, and would have to sign a contract committing them to pay taxes and obey the law or be removed from the United States within two weeks without recourse to long court processes.

Create a special open-ended worker visa for high value workers who bring specialized education, entrepreneurial talent or capital that will grow the American economy and make America a more prosperous country.

Workers who came here illegally but have a good work relationship and community ties (including family), should have first opportunity to get the new temporary worker visas, but instead of paying penalties, they should be required to go home and get the visa at home. This way they are beginning their new career in America by obeying the law. It is amazing that those who advocate a large fine and the new Z visa, which would be administered in a hopelessly expedited manner, suggest that going home to get a new legal admission to the U.S. is somehow too complicated. If people can break the law by entering the county illegally, they should be able to obey the law and enter America legally.

These 10 steps would lead to a controlled border, a profound revitalization of the core values of American civilization, a renewed respect for the law and an economically driven system of legal temporary workers in an orderly and controllable manner.

This program would work vastly better than the dishonest and hopelessly complex Bush-Kennedy-McCain proposal now being pushed so hard by the establishment against the wishes of most Americans.

Newt Gingrich, June 18, 2007
(c) 2997 Eagle Publishing Company
I think he's right.

[Ballcox]

My mom who has been a teacher for 33 years told me the other day that the "No Child Left Behind" bill was one of the dumbest bills ever passed by an American politician. I think that a mounting of different regulations like that have turned educators against the conservative side of our government.

My wife is also a teacher, for almost 9 years now. And in listening to her it is very evident that our educational system is in serious trouble. Teachers are having to pass kids to the next grade, they don't get support from their administrators, and feel that they're basically on an island with no support. Honestly, I don't know how they do it on a daily basis, I don't think I would make it one year as a teacher.

I also liked the story about the individual who had his kid cut in line to ride the plane. It's small examples like that which make me worry more and more.

I want to teach my children to live by upstanding principles in their life, to remember common courtesy and respect towards others. But then at the same time I worry that I'm not really preparing my kids for the kind of world they seem to be entering into in the near future.

That's when I'm tempted to say to hell with it, I need to just teach my kids to take advantage of those weaker than you, manipulate others, do whatever it takes to get ahead/succeed. This type of thought process along with the world we live in creates a great deal of anxiety and stress for me as a parent. I'm going to keep taking the high road as much as possible and hopefully infuse my kids with enough commone sense to deal with knuckleheads when they have to in the manner they deem necessary, while still keeping the core vaule/belief system that I've also tried to instill in them.

Does that even make sense? Sometimes it's too much uncertainty to deal with. :(

[mullet]

Yes. People don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bastard did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a shit about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

If you had had your gun on your hip I bet that somabitch wouldn't have cut in line.

[George Gervin's Afro]

None of which will be enforced and all of which is irrelevant since they don't want to become citizens -- they just want to stay here and work or live off our taxes. This bill allows them to remain in the United States pending all this crap that will never come to pass.


The wall was mandated in earlier legislation and has yet to be built. Why should we believe than any of the security features of this bill will be done?

We shouldn't.

Security should come before amnesty. I like Newt Gingrich's plan.


I think he's right.


Well you may be right but to say this bill means automatic amnesty is not totally correct.

[xrayzebra]

My girlfriend has taught for over 10 yrs in a public elementary school. She is not a political person in anyway and does not indentify herself a democrat or republican. The only issue that really fires her up is when Tommy DeLay helped pass a law that teachers who participated in the state retirement program could not collect social security. this includes when a teacher's spouse dies they cannot collect that money either. she was like 'what the f*ck is up with Tom DeLay?" She takes a conservtaive view on somethings and a liberal view on others all while not really knowing. She really get's infuriated when she hears people blame teachers for the public education mess. She blames bad parenting because if a kid isn't disciplined at home they sure as hell won't be in school. So when these kids fail in school because of their out of control behaviour people like ray and Yoni come out and blame her and he fellow teachers for giving a bad education etc..

Well in the first place, the teachers must opt out of
social security. (as a group, no individually) I know of no law that prohibits them
from participating in social security. State retirement
has not/does not now stopped anyone from participating
in social security. Now there are laws about federal
employees and there was a law passed about stopping
state employees that had opted out of social security
from using a loop hole that would allow them to take
jobs that were covered by social security on the last
few days of employment with a school system so that
they could get social security. You might want to be
more specific in your comments.

[xrayzebra]

G.W. Bush 2 term Republican President


GGA, does it bother you that I agree with you one
hundred percent. Because I do. And have so advised
him of my feelings.

[xrayzebra]

from what I remember these folks aren't going to be given citizenship. There are many obstacles ( fees, course, english etc.) that are put into place to ensure that anyone who is interested in becoming a citizien must prove and earn it. Second a big part of the bill is the new law will require much more accountability on companies who hire these folks. these companies will be penalized severely when caught breaking the rules. Snow made the point that we need to know who these people are NOW so the bill addresses this.These illegals MUST make themsleves known to the govt because if they do not (in theory) they should not be able to find any work. I have limited understanding of what various work visas mean but when the illegals register they then apply for these temporary work visas. Snow made the point that you can't tackle only part of the problem and be successful. Snow also mentioned the the bill calls for more border patrol agents continuing the building of the wall to go along with more predator drones etc.. Not a perfect bill but not blanket amnesty either.

Once the bill is passed it will make them legal to be in
the United States. They can apply for the z-visa and it
is renewable. They have no reason to apply for
citizenship since all privileges of citizenship, except,
voting will be given to them. And the above exemption,
voting, will follow shortly thereafter. Many of them have
no desire to be citizens. And really does it matter.
They have broken the law to get here, jumped the line,
and only want to bring the culture here, which has
already happened in many areas already.

[Yonivore]

Well you may be right but to say this bill means automatic amnesty is not totally correct.
They don't have to leave and there's exactly zero chance of suffering any consequences.

In fact, they can stay guilt-free.

That my friend, is amnesty.

[clambake]

Why not make the illegals build the wall, from the Mexican side of the border?

[Yonivore]

Why not make the illegals build the wall, from the Mexican side of the border?
Sure. That makes sense.

[clambake]

Sure. That makes sense.
Sometimes, the best solution is the simplest.

[Yonivore]

Sometimes, the best solution is the simplest.
Oh, you were serious? :lmao

[clambake]

Oh, you were serious? :lmao
sarcasm, with humor.

The border problem should be left to guys like Mullet.

[Yonivore]

sarcasm, with humor.

The border problem should be left to guys like Mullet.
Whom I have on ignore. Excellent.

[mullet]

you cant ignore you you rich SOB. its peoples like me is the only reason youse in power