ESPN: KG wants Phoenix

[monosylab1k]

Amare-KG is the more desirable pairing than Marion-KG. All the things Amare doesn't do well, KG can do.

Wow, I don't see it that way at all. To me, KG and Marion would complement each other perfectly (especially on defense, where KG being there down low means Marion doesn't have to take on the other team's best forward and can focus more on creating turnovers and grabbing loose balls, which he's excellent at), whereas Amare would simply get in KG's way (and vice versa).

[Magic_Johnson]

Wow, I don't see it that way at all. To me, KG and Marion would complement each other perfectly (especially on defense, where KG being there down low means Marion doesn't have to take on the other team's best forward and can focus more on creating turnovers and grabbing loose balls, which he's excellent at), whereas Amare would simply get in KG's way (and vice versa).

I agree. And I think Diaw can't play good with amare. I think he will play like last year with KG and marion.

[ArgSpursFan]

]I think the pro-Amare folks in this thread (especially ArgSpursFan) are assuming that an Amare/Barbosa led team will contend for the title once Nash retires.

Is not about being a Pro-Amare or not.I´m saying that the suns as a franshise have more potential for the next 10 years(finally winning a championship or not)keeping Amare tham getting KG.
Just think of this:they get KG,but they get rid of Amare and Barbosa.They´ll be lossing 2 player who will be capable to play at a high level for the next 10 yrs or so,they may not be able to win a championship without Nash,but still be in the top 5 teams in the Conference.
Now if they get KG and don´t win it all,they got a KG and Nash playing in a high level for 2 yrs or so.And them what???
That would be the question to answer.



Without Nash, the Suns are 4-11 in the last 3 seasons

true,but they have been using Barbosa as a buckup PG while He is a true SG.


If the Suns think Amare without a premier set-up man can lead them to a title in a loaded conference, they'd need a new coach, a radically different offensive system, a steep rise in Amare's defense, post moves and IQ and a lot of luck. An Amare/Barbosa/Marion/Bell/Jones line-up may get past the Lakers/Warriors/Nuggets. But it's not good enough to get past the Spurs/Mavs/Jazz/Rockets


Ofcourse they need another PG,no doubt,but if that the case KG without a good PG worths shit too,just like Amare would.And If you ask me I reather keep a young Amare tham an agin KG.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I think the pro-Amare folks in this thread (especially ArgSpursFan) are assuming that an Amare/Barbosa led team will contend for the title once Nash retires.

Without Nash, the Suns are 4-11 in the last 3 seasons.

If the Suns think Amare without a premier set-up man can lead them to a title in a loaded conference, they'd need a new coach, a radically different offensive system, a steep rise in Amare's defense, post moves and IQ and a lot of luck. An Amare/Barbosa/Marion/Bell/Jones line-up may get past the Lakers/Warriors/Nuggets. But it's not good enough to get past the Spurs/Mavs/Jazz/Rockets.
Whereas Nash, without Amare, carried the Suns to the WCF and took the Mavs to 6 games in 05-06.

I say this again: unless the Suns attract a big-money free agent (note that they have a big payroll already) to replace Nash, or get a gem or two out of the 2008 draft, their championship window ends with Nash's decline. That's 2 years. And KG >> Amare for the next 2 years.

Yer right. Once Nash retires the team will probably be below average -average. And without a doubt KG is better than Amare.

But, the Suns, who ruined it for themselves this year, are contenders, not just 2nd tier contnders. How can you say that? The team, though some people like to not take this into consideration for whatever reason, was not at full strength. Nash at the end of game one obviously was injured and couldn't play, and oviously for game 6 they missed some their best players for the entire game.

Had the Spurs gone down 3-2, none of us would be talking about this. It could happen next year unless something hapens where they become victims of their own stupidy, again. A say let the team live and learn.

And when Nash does start to lose a step, or retires, and the team starts to suck with a still young Amare as it's main guy they could start rebuilding by trading him for a pick or something, while he's still valued.

[ArgSpursFan]

Yer right. Once Nash retires the team will probably be below average -average. And without a doubt KG is better than Amare.

But, the Suns, who ruined it for themselves this year, are contenders, not just 2nd tier contnders. How can you say that? The team, though some people like to not take this into consideration for whatever reason, was not at full strength. Nash at the end of game one obviously was injured and couldn't play, and oviously for game 6 they missed some their best players for the entire game.

Had the Spurs gone down 3-2, none of us would be talking about this. It could happen next year unless something hapens where they become victims of their own stupidy, again. A say let the team live and learn.

And when Nash does start to lose a step, or retires, and the team starts to suck with a still young Amare as it's main guy they could start rebuilding by trading him for a pick or something, while he's still valued.

I agree.its easier to bild a team around a young Big man like Amare tham an Aging KG when Nash finally retires,just like the spurs did with TD.Of course I´m not trying to compare Amare with Timmy,there´s only gonna be one Tim Duncan.
Now think on this scenario,the Volves are trying to get at least 2 young studs for KG,ok?
What If the volves would want to trade KG for Tony and Manu?a young star+ one of the best 6 th men in the league.Would you all do that trade???no way!
Same thing for the Suns in my opinion.

[Warlord23]

Ofcourse they need another PG,no doubt,but if that the case KG without a good PG worths shit too,just like Amare would.And If you ask me I reather keep a young Amare tham an agin KG.

Precisely my point. They both need the PG, and his name is Nash for the next 2 years.
KG + Nash >> Amare + Nash for 2008-10.

After 2010, Nash retires, and neither Amare nor KG will help them contend at the level they are right now. So mortgage the future and try to win now, instead of keeping Amare and being a very good team that will struggle to get out of the loaded West year after year

[Warlord23]

Here's a post I found on LG.net about a supposed MN insider ... so take it with more than a pinch of salt, but this is his version...



slumz.boxden.com/showthread.php?t=929119&page=5

aight got some more info and was able to answer some questions about why this is takin so long to go public.

ill start from the top
-friday june 15
friday night kg is notified of a preleminary trade agreement with phx for stoudamire and phx pick from atl and is asked if he will waive his opt out clause which he agrees to do
-mon jun 18th
kg agent speaks with phx to confirm details and to express his clients' willingness to play there
-tues june 19th
in the mounring paperwork on trade to phx for amare starts..phx however is trying to change deal to involve boston. so that they would send marion and thier picks to boston and boston would send the twolves all them players and their pick.
this is halted because marion whos contract expires next year tells boston he doesnt want to play for them and wont past next season
-wednesday jun 20th
unknown to kg, kevin mchale and danny ainge work out a deal not involving phx. late wednesday night kg's agent gets wind of deal which infuriates kg being that he never told the wolves he would go to boston and doesnt like mchale telling him hes goin to phx and then goin behind his back to make a deal wit boston.
thursday jun21th
kg tell media he doesnt want to go to boston which nix's this deal cuz boston wont take him unless waives his opt out clause.

now phx has agreed to give wolves amare but they have asked for time to try involve another team to get the wolves a better package (like the one boston was gonna give)
this is because phx would like to get something for marion who they konw that wont be resigning next year

which means that the suns are trying to find a team marion would be willing to sign to long term to who will agrre to send the twolves players and picks. They have untill the draft to do this and if they dont find a team they will send the wolves amare..

basically kg is goin to phx for amare unless phx can find another team to get rid of marion so they dont have to give up amare.

now as far as why kg wants to go to phx over boston is that 1 he and nash are mad cool and he thinks he can win a championship there...secondly kg doesnt want to play in in large market like boston or l.a. he doesnt want to have to deal with all the media like that and prefers phoenix smaller market feel ...similar to mn.

[SpursDynasty]

bull shit
duncan kg cancel each other out
barbosa is shut down by tp
tp scores more then nash
marion or amare are gone with trade
manu >bell
diaw is the x factor for suns

spurs bench might determine outcome

LMAO on Duncan and KG canceling each other out...Duncan is superior to KG. KG's biggest accomplishment was winning the MVP in 2004 and making the 2004 WCF. Duncan, on the other hand, has 2 MVP's, and 4 championships. BTW, the 2004 Timberwolves were the worst best-record in the West, in Western Conference history. Horrible showing in the WCF's that year.

While Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu are in town, there's no stopping the Spurs, no matter who their bench is. Maybe when Tim Duncan gets older up there in age, 34-35. He's still only 31.

Spurs have the best big three in the league.

[ArgSpursFan]

Precisely my point. They both need the PG, and his name is Nash for the next 2 years.
KG + Nash >> Amare + Nash for 2008-10.

After 2010, Nash retires, and neither Amare nor KG will help them contend at the level they are right now. So mortgage the future and try to win now, instead of keeping Amare and being a very good team that will struggle to get out of the loaded West year after year

but ,you think the suns will get better getting KG and giving up alot of youth.on Amare and Barbosa?
they wont have no spark from the bench at all coze Barbosa will be gone and Diaw will have to be a starter.
I say they should try to get KG,but not give up that much and many young talented guys.

[Warlord23]

but ,you think the suns will get better getting KG and giving up alot of youth.on Amare and Barbosa?
they wont have no spark from the bench at all coze Barbosa will be gone and Diaw will have to be a starter.
I say they should try to get KG,but not give up that much and many young talented guys.

If they give up Amare they won't have to give up Barbosa. Amare + Kurt Thomas can get it done

You're right that Phx is trying to get KG without giving up any youth. Ideally they want to ship out Marion/Thomas/Diaw etc. But it would take a 3rd team to make it work, someone like Boston, LA, Denver. This 3rd team needs to satisfy 2 criteria:
1. Taking on Marion + filler improves this team or fills a key need
2. It has pieces which are attractive to MN if they give up KG.

Problem is, Marion nixed the Boston 3-way by saying he doesn't want to go to Boston

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Precisely my point. They both need the PG, and his name is Nash for the next 2 years.
KG + Nash >> Amare + Nash for 2008-10.

After 2010, Nash retires, and neither Amare nor KG will help them contend at the level they are right now. So mortgage the future and try to win now, instead of keeping Amare and being a very good team that will struggle to get out of the loaded West year after year

It's moronic to think that the team as it is stands no chance to win a championship!

Just bring yourself to believe-it shouldn't be that hard but for some reason it is-that the team as it is is capable of winning the west (the Finals). It's highly concievable considering that if they went up 3-2 this year-a scenario that is at least slightly realistic (saracsm) if they had been equiped with all their weapons-they would have put themselves in a very good position to win the series!

As much as I llike the Spurs, I'm pretty convinced that if they went down 3-2 they would ahve lost.

So take that all into consideration

say they keep Amare, yer right they'll suck after Nash retires, but they could trade him for a high pick. That would leave them with basically a shit team for a year. But for that years draft they would have two really high picks.

[Extra Stout]

A KG for Amare + Thomas trade would leave the Suns with a roster that would be just sick offensively, with the opportunity, if properly coached, (big if) to implement a terrific team defense. With Amare, they don't have that opportunity, because their team defense is a donut when he's in the middle.

The downside is that the roster would still be kind of thin.

[Oh, Gee!!]

If PHX is smart, they'll keep Amare

[Shred]

Problem is, Marion nixed the Boston 3-way by saying he doesn't want to go to Boston

Source? Marion doesn't have a no-trade clause. I guess, like Garnett, he could threaten to not re-sign with his new team.

[Shred]

If PHX is smart, they'll keep Amare

Amare isn't going anywhere.

[RonMexico]

Defense doesn't win championships... everybody knows this by now.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Amare isn't going anywhere.

you're not gonna keep Amare and also acquire KG

[Shred]

you're not gonna keep Amare and also acquire KG

Maybe not. But you Spur fans sure are posting a whole lot about why a KG to Phoenix deal won't happen. On the other hand, Minnesota can take something for him now, or get nothing after next season.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Maybe not. But you Spur fans sure are posting a whole lot about why a KG to Phoenix deal won't happen. On the other hand, Minnesota can take something for him now, or get nothing after next season.

I would consider Marion the functional equivalent of nothing

[Shred]

I would consider Marion the functional equivalent of nothing

If I were you, I'd probably consider a career somewhere besides being a NBA general manager.

[himat]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/46634/20070621/wolves_and_suns_have_talked_trade/

[Extra Stout]

Maybe not. But you Spur fans sure are posting a whole lot about why a KG to Phoenix deal won't happen. On the other hand, Minnesota can take something for him now, or get nothing after next season.
KG for Amare makes sense. The Suns give themselves the best possible chance to win a couple of titles before Nash goes into decline, and the Wolves get a young star to build around.

KG for Marion is stupid on the Wolves' part. Marion is only a couple of years younger than KG, and is best suited as a second or third star. Clearing $20+ million in cap room by letting KG walk is probably better than trading him for a complementary player making a maximum salary.

Seriously, think about KG in there instead of Amare. I know Amare is a very shiny object, what with all his dunking and muscle-flexing and pushups, and calling himself STAT and Black Jesus, but with KG in there, the Suns keep all their offensive potency, maybe even improve upon it with KG's versatility. Plus, the Suns would have a lineup that, if D'Antoni would stop kissing his own ass and actually put some effort into implementing a defensive scheme, or at least into hiring an assistant who can, would have the length, quickness, tenacity and athleticism to be an elite defensive unit as well.

You might get a real life championship instead of the hypothetical ones you cherish now.

[Shred]

KG for Amare makes sense. The Suns give themselves the best possible chance to win a couple of titles before Nash goes into decline, and the Wolves get a young star to build around.

KG for Marion is stupid on the Wolves' part. Marion is only a couple of years younger than KG, and is best suited as a second or third star. Clearing $20+ million in cap room by letting KG walk is probably better than trading him for a complementary player making a maximum salary.

Seriously, think about KG in there instead of Amare. I know Amare is a very shiny object, what with all his dunking and muscle-flexing and pushups, and calling himself STAT and Black Jesus, but with KG in there, the Suns keep all their offensive potency, maybe even improve upon it with KG's versatility. Plus, the Suns would have a lineup that, if D'Antoni would stop kissing his own ass and actually put some effort into implementing a defensive scheme, or at least into hiring an assistant who can, would have the length, quickness, tenacity and athleticism to be an elite defensive unit as well.

You might get a real life championship instead of the hypothetical ones you cherish now.

Who wants a hypothetical championship? You mean like one with an asterisk attached? I want a real one.

[ambchang]

Garnett for Amare should benefit both teams.
It's no secret that:
1) Nash makes the Suns motor goes
2) Nash only have 3 years, max, left.
3) Amare will not reach his full potential in 3 years.
4) KG is a superior defender, passer and more versatile offensively than Amare.
5) Amare is a better finisher.

By adding KG to the Suns, the pick and roll between Nash and KG will be just as potent, Marion would be happier, and KG will be a huge upgrade defensively over Amare. This would give a huge push to the Suns' championship hopes.
The Wolves will get a young talent, great draw, and amazing finisher in Amare. Gives them a chance to rebuild the whole team from scratch, purge bad contracts and rebuild the team around Amare, something that they couldn't do with KG because of his contract and age.
It's great for both teams, terrible for the rest of the league.

[mardigan]

Who wants a hypothetical championship? You mean like one with an asterisk attached? I want a real one.
At this point I would think any championship would suffice

[Extra Stout]

Who wants a hypothetical championship? You mean like one with an asterisk attached? I want a real one.
It's a hypothetical championship when all you can do, is to try to attach an asterisk to a real championship another team actually won.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I want a real one.
You're not getting one anytime soon.

[himat]

KG is better defensively. The Spurs always beat the Suns because they are greatly superior on the defensive side. KG won't make the Suns a better defensive team than the Spurs, but for the Suns to make it to the Finals they need to get a guy like KG.

[Shred]

You're not getting one anytime soon.

Sooners fan to Horns fans, circa 2004. :rolleyes

[Shred]

Garnett for Amare should benefit both teams.
It's no secret that:
1) Nash makes the Suns motor goes
2) Nash only have 3 years, max, left.
3) Amare will not reach his full potential in 3 years.
4) KG is a superior defender, passer and more versatile offensively than Amare.
5) Amare is a better finisher.

By adding KG to the Suns, the pick and roll between Nash and KG will be just as potent, Marion would be happier, and KG will be a huge upgrade defensively over Amare. This would give a huge push to the Suns' championship hopes.
The Wolves will get a young talent, great draw, and amazing finisher in Amare. Gives them a chance to rebuild the whole team from scratch, purge bad contracts and rebuild the team around Amare, something that they couldn't do with KG because of his contract and age.
It's great for both teams, terrible for the rest of the league.

I think we'll see Marion to Chicago or some other destination before we see Amare go anywhere.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Sooners fan to Horns fans, circa 2004. :rolleyes
We're talking NBA basketball here.

[Xylus]

I love KG, don't get me wrong. I think I've given people the impression that I'm not a KG fan.

What's stopping me from truly embracing a KG-for-Amare deal is that I can see Amare becoming unstoppable in the next couple of years, much better offensively than KG has ever been. His defense will never be top-notch, but his offensive game has no ceiling. Teams will be afraid to play him.

I'm worried that once we trade Amare away, he's going to become an absolute beast and everyone will wish we hadn't traded him.

Then again, if we win a championship with KG and Nash, I won't be worried about it. Nothing is guaranteed, though.

[Warlord23]

Garnett for Amare should benefit both teams.
It's no secret that:
1) Nash makes the Suns motor goes
2) Nash only have 3 years, max, left.
3) Amare will not reach his full potential in 3 years.
4) KG is a superior defender, passer and more versatile offensively than Amare.
5) Amare is a better finisher.

By adding KG to the Suns, the pick and roll between Nash and KG will be just as potent, Marion would be happier, and KG will be a huge upgrade defensively over Amare. This would give a huge push to the Suns' championship hopes.
The Wolves will get a young talent, great draw, and amazing finisher in Amare. Gives them a chance to rebuild the whole team from scratch, purge bad contracts and rebuild the team around Amare, something that they couldn't do with KG because of his contract and age.
It's great for both teams, terrible for the rest of the league.

Agree completely with all of the above. If the Suns don't KG, as Spurs fans that is the best possible news for us.

The slightly worrisome case is that Phoenix loses Amare and gets KG. That puts a more formidable roadblock than we've seen over the last 3 years.

The most worrisome case is if McHale is dumb enough to trade KG for Marion + filler, or if Phoenix finds a third team to ship Marion out and get KG.

I think scenario 1 is the most probable, what with the Suns' delusions about Amare being the next great big man in this league, and D'Antoni's unshakeable faith in their gimmick style of play. I think we'll see pretty much the same Suns team next year.

[mardigan]

What's stopping me from truly embracing a KG-for-Amare deal is that I can see Amare becoming unstoppable in the next couple of years, much better offensively than KG has ever been.
I think Amare will be very good for a long time, but I dont think he will ever be as talented as KG offensively or defensively

[Xylus]

I think Amare will be very good for a long time, but I dont think he will ever be as talented as KG offensively or defensively
KG has more offensive tools, but Amare will continue to improve until it's literally difficult to keep him from getting to the basket.

[Warlord23]

I love KG, don't get me wrong. I think I've given people the impression that I'm not a KG fan.

What's stopping me from truly embracing a KG-for-Amare deal is that I can see Amare becoming unstoppable in the next couple of years, much better offensively than KG has ever been. His defense will never be top-notch, but his offensive game has no ceiling. Teams will be afraid to play him.

I'm worried that once we trade Amare away, he's going to become an absolute beast and everyone will wish we hadn't traded him.

Then again, if we win a championship with KG and Nash, I won't be worried about it. Nothing is guaranteed, though.

Xylus, what exactly tells you that Amare will be unstoppable? Amare's FG% rose by around 7 or 8% after Nash joined the Suns. Why? Because the offense didn't need to run through him, it runs through Nash.

Over the last few years, whenever Nash has missed games, the Suns barely win 35-40% of their games. They lose to horrible teams without Nash. He is the motor, and Amare feeds off of him.

See the point is who is the quarterback (an analogy used often by Pop) of your team ? For the Spurs, it is Duncan. The offense runs through him. He makes decisions. When to put the ball on the floor, when to back his way in the post, when to pass to a cutter, when to pass to a shooter. Can Amare do all that? So far he's only been at the receiving end of Nash's excellent decision making.

Maybe (and that's a huge maybe) Amare develops a back-to-the-basket game, plays defense, rebounds better, passes better, makes better decisions. Maybe he gets a better coach. Maybe his knees hold up while all of these improvements happen. But Nash will probably be over the hill by the time Amare gets it together.

Now Garnett is a different story. A guy who has had to hold the ball and make decisions his entire career now actually gets fed by a better decision maker. The pressure on Garnett drops radically. He doesn't have to explain why he took more shots or deferred to teammates. He's just going to be a weapon (and a very sharp one) in an arsenal that Nash can use as he deems fit. He can still run the offense when Nash sits down for 10 or so minutes. The same Suns offense which Barbosa and Amare were unable to run whenever Nash sat down. That right there is the biggest reason why the Suns will become damn near unguardable with Nash and Garnett on the floor.

[Findog]

Sooners fan to Horns fans, circa 2004. :rolleyes

Or Lakers fans to Spurs fans, circa 2001-02.

[mardigan]

KG has more offensive tools, but Amare will continue to improve until it's literally difficult to keep him from getting to the basket.
The thing with Amare is I really dont know how good he is without other great players around him. KG, I know he can still be a great player without anyone else

[Extra Stout]

KG has more offensive tools, but Amare will continue to improve until it's literally difficult to keep him from getting to the basket.
What good does that do, when it continues to be literally difficult for him to keep anybody else from getting to the basket on the other side?

[himat]

Amare has the hops and power

KG has a shot, can pass very well, rebounds, defense, and he is better at creating for himself.

Suns should do the trade if the Wolves are willing to do it.

[Xylus]

In the '04-'05 playoffs, Amare was getting it done on his own much of the time, rather than relying mostly on Nash like he did this year. When they played the Mavericks in the 2nd round, they tried to force Nash to take all of the shots and limit Amare, but that didn't work. In the 3rd round, the Spurs shutdown everyone on the court and left Duncan to single-guard Amare most of the time. Duncan couldn't do it. The Spurs won that series because the Suns were shit defensively and because a one-man team can't beat the Spurs.

This is the first year back from microfracture surgery. Amare's already back in the gym trying to get back to that level, and I think he'll be scary next season, even when Nash isn't helping him.

With Garnett, the team will have to readjust and find chemistry AGAIN.

[Xylus]

What good does that do, when it continues to be literally difficult for him to keep anybody else from getting to the basket on the other side?
Amare's defense has always been mediocre, but it didn't look bad until Duncan played him. Duncan's really the only player in his position that he really cannot guard.

[Findog]

Wow, 15 pages of bitter debate. I think it's a defensible decision either way regarding KG-Amare. KG is a more well-rounded player and makes the Suns a bit better in the shortterm, as he is better defensively and is as hungry as Nash. On the other hand, you couldn't fault the Suns for holding on to 10 years of Amare vs 2-3 of KG. KG doesn't guarantee that you'll leapfrog the Spurs, it some ways it's just a little better than a lateral move. Amare doesn't play D, got caught up too easily in an ego contest with Marion and still relies on his talent instead of always busting his ass. But he's young and he'll figure it out.

Amused at the black and white debating positions at both ends of the spectrum.

[Warlord23]

Amare's defense has always been mediocre, but it didn't look bad until Duncan played him. Duncan's really the only player in his position that he really cannot guard.

Duncan's also the only player (IMO) between Phoenix and a championship. Which is why I hope KG doesn't land up in Phoenix.

[mardigan]

Amare's defense has always been mediocre, but it didn't look bad until Duncan played him. Duncan's really the only player in his position that he really cannot guard.
It didnt look bad until Kwame Brown was schooling him

[ArgSpursFan]

In the '04-'05 playoffs, Amare was getting it done on his own much of the time, rather than relying mostly on Nash like he did this year. When they played the Mavericks in the 2nd round, they tried to force Nash to take all of the shots and limit Amare, but that didn't work. In the 3rd round, the Spurs shutdown everyone on the court and left Duncan to single-guard Amare most of the time. Duncan couldn't do it. The Spurs won that series because the Suns were shit defensively and because a one-man team can't beat the Spurs.

This is the first year back from microfracture surgery. Amare's already back in the gym trying to get back to that level, and I think he'll be scary next season, even when Nash isn't helping him.

With Garnett, the team will have to readjust and find chemistry AGAIN.

that´s the braking point right there.We know that the Nash +Amare tandem works out pretty good,they just need to have a better Difensive system(and thats Danthony´s Fault)
Now if they get KG ,I dont think the picknroll will work out that good in the 1 st season together.
So,I don´t know if KG will have to adjust to the suns or the suns will have to adjust to KG.
To me the suns dont really need more talent for their starting lineup,they just need a deeper bench and a smarter coach.simple as that.

[ArgSpursFan]

let´s put it this way.Phx wont beat the spurs or the mavs if they bring KG,or even shaq.yes I said it,and book it.
But they can turn this around if they get a better/more difensive minded coach.

[mardigan]

let´s put it this way.Phx wont beat the spurs or the mavs if they bring KG,or even shaq.yes I said it,and book it.
But they can turn this around if they get a better/more difensive minded coach.
Lets put it this way, they havent beat those teams with what they have either

[ArgSpursFan]

Lets put it this way, they havent beat those teams with what they have either

True.
but it´s been always the same coach also Mards.

[Xylus]

Another thing, the road doesn't always go through the Spurs. What if the Mavs and Spurs end up facing each other next year, and the Suns end up playing the Mavs? The Mavs have absolutely no answer for Amare.

[K-State Spur]

Ithe Spurs shutdown everyone on the court and left Duncan to single-guard Amare most of the time.

They did? What series were you watching? That was Nazr (most of the time) that Amare was lighting up. That's not to say that Duncan would shutdown Amare, but let's get our facts straight. Tim guarded QRich in that series.

[mardigan]

True.
but it´s been always the same coach also Mards.
Well if were talking about coaching its a lost cause, D'Antoni is a shit coach but one that had entrenched himself there. And if that is their coach, they might as well bring in a player who is at least the equal of Amare on offense, but much, much superior on defense. If they are going to keep their scheme, at least they could upgrade the defenders on the team, hell, look how much of a difference even Kurt Thomas made on the defensive end



Another thing, the road doesn't always go through the Spurs. What if the Mavs and Spurs end up facing each other next year, and the Suns end up playing the Mavs? The Mavs have absolutely no answer for Amare.
And the Suns have no answer for Dirk

[Xylus]

Well if were talking about coaching its a lost cause, D'Antoni is a shit coach but one that had entrenched himself there. And if that is their coach, they might as well bring in a player who is at least the equal of Amare on offense, but much, much superior on defense. If they are going to keep their scheme, at least they could upgrade the defenders on the team, hell, look how much of a difference even Kurt Thomas made on the defensive end



And the Suns have no answer for Dirk
Marion does a pretty good job on Dirk.

With a fully-loaded Suns team, the Mavs would not win. I'm convinced of that. You have to be a special defensive team to beat the Suns at full strength, which is why the Spurs have been the team to do it over recent years.

[Extra Stout]

They did? What series were you watching? That was Nazr (most of the time) that Amare was lighting up. That's not to say that Duncan would shutdown Amare, but let's get our facts straight. Tim guarded QRich in that series.
You must have watched a different series than I did, because I saw Tim Duncan guarding Amare Stoudemire, and Tony Parker on QRich.

At least in crunch time.

[K-State Spur]

Tim spent some time on Amare and Parker spent some time on Richardson, but for most of the series, when the Suns went:

Amare
Marion
Richardson
Jackson/Johnson
Nash

The Spurs countered with:

Amare <--- Nazr
Marion <--- Bowen
Richardson <--- Duncan
Jackson/Johnson <--- Manu
Nash <--- Parker

This was one of the smarter defensive line-ups ever put together by Pop for a few reasons. First, it completely took out 1 of the Suns' big 3 - because Bowen owned Marion as much as a so-called 'star' can be owned by another player defensively. Second, since Richardson seemed perfectly content just chucking up jumpers, Timmy didn't have to worry about him driving past him, which saved his ankles, and allowed him to stay out of foul trouble against Amare. And Parker never got embarrassed by Nash.

Now, clearly there were stretches where Duncan did match-up with Amare and the perimeter match-ups could be mixed and matched almost any way you see fit, but Tim's primary one-on-one defensive match-up was QRich.

[itzsoweezee]

KG to Chicago, now that's a deal that makes sense for both teams. If Paxson has even half a brain he would do that trade and quit being a pussy.

[kps0001]

It didnt look bad until Kwame Brown was schooling him

Why don't you look up what Kwame did in the series against the Suns before you try to make a mad claim like that. He had one freakin game he scored 19 point and that was in 36 min. Every other game he didn't even reach double figures.

Lets compare the two and you tell me who was the teacher and who was the scholar.

Game 1
Kwame
29 mins, 2-6 shooting, 7 boards, 1 ast, 3 fouls, and 4 pts

Amare
42 Mins, 9-16 shooting, 5-6 FT, 12 boards, 1 asst,2 steals, 2 blocks, 3 fouls, 23 pts

Game 2
Kwame
18 mins. 3-6 shooting 1-2 FT 4 boards 1 blk 4 fouls 7 pts

Amare
24 Mins, 9-13 shooting, 2-4 FT, 9 boards, 1 steal, 4 blocks, 4 fouls, 20 pts

Game3
Kwame
36 mins 8-14 shooting, 3-5 FT, 6 boards, 2 blks, 1 foul, 19pts

Amare
31 mins, 11-17 shooting, 2-2 FT, 0-2 3pts, 10boards, 3 asst, 2 blocks, 4 fouls, 24 pts

Game 4
Kwame
29 mins, 4-6 shooting, 1-1 FT, 4 boards, 1 blk, 5 fouls, 9 points

Amare
42 mins, 10-20 shooting, 7-10 FT, 21 boards, 2 steals, 1 block, 4 fouls, 27 pts

Game 5
Kwame
21 mins, 2-4 shooting, 1 FT, 7 boards, 1 steal, 3 fouls, 4 points

Amare
37 mins, 6-16 shooting, 15-21 FT, 16 boards, 1 asst, 2 steals, 5 fouls, 27 pts


But of course since it is Amare and he is hated by most Spurs fans, if not all, he got schooled by a chump like Kwame Brown and can't play a lick of D. OK. While he isn't an all-nba defender he is not the sieve in the middle that you spurs fans make him out to be.

[Extra Stout]

Tim spent some time on Amare and Parker spent some time on Richardson, but for most of the series, when the Suns went:

Amare
Marion
Richardson
Jackson/Johnson
Nash

The Spurs countered with:

Amare <--- Nazr
Marion <--- Bowen
Richardson <--- Duncan
Jackson/Johnson <--- Manu
Nash <--- Parker

Nazr only averaged around 20 minutes a game in that series. Horry got the bulk of the minutes, increasingly so as the series progressed.

[Cleveland Steamer]

Why don't you look up what Kwame did in the series against the Suns before you try to make a mad claim like that. He had one freakin game he scored 19 point and that was in 36 min. Every other game he didn't even reach double figures.

Lets compare the two and you tell me who was the teacher and who was the scholar.

Game 1
Kwame
29 mins, 2-6 shooting, 7 boards, 1 ast, 3 fouls, and 4 pts

Amare
42 Mins, 9-16 shooting, 5-6 FT, 12 boards, 1 asst,2 steals, 2 blocks, 3 fouls, 23 pts

Game 2
Kwame
18 mins. 3-6 shooting 1-2 FT 4 boards 1 blk 4 fouls 7 pts

Amare
24 Mins, 9-13 shooting, 2-4 FT, 9 boards, 1 steal, 4 blocks, 4 fouls, 20 pts

Game3
Kwame
36 mins 8-14 shooting, 3-5 FT, 6 boards, 2 blks, 1 foul, 19pts

Amare
31 mins, 11-17 shooting, 2-2 FT, 0-2 3pts, 10boards, 3 asst, 2 blocks, 4 fouls, 24 pts

Game 4
Kwame
29 mins, 4-6 shooting, 1-1 FT, 4 boards, 1 blk, 5 fouls, 9 points

Amare
42 mins, 10-20 shooting, 7-10 FT, 21 boards, 2 steals, 1 block, 4 fouls, 27 pts

Game 5
Kwame
21 mins, 2-4 shooting, 1 FT, 7 boards, 1 steal, 3 fouls, 4 points

Amare
37 mins, 6-16 shooting, 15-21 FT, 16 boards, 1 asst, 2 steals, 5 fouls, 27 pts


But of course since it is Amare and he is hated by most Spurs fans, if not all, he got schooled by a chump like Kwame Brown and can't play a lick of D. OK. While he isn't an all-nba defender he is not the sieve in the middle that you spurs fans make him out to be.
Nice, the one game Kwame got more than 6 shots he had a good game against AMare. Amare is a shit defender, sorry bro

[kps0001]

He would rather pubescently blame the powers that be for punishing him than accept responsibility for his actions like an adult and move on? Yes, Amare, the league is just out to screw you. No one else.

He constantly whined (even recently) about how he would have made a difference in a past event and in the meantime completely blew his opportunity to make a difference in the very next game that he played in, with a short-handed opponent?

He still doesn't play a damn bit of defense? And it hasn't improved much at all since the last time the Spurs blew the Suns away?

He overexerts himself on the offensive end with "thunderous dunks" when a lay in or an easy 2 handed jam would service just fine?

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/qa_stoudemire.html

Just read this interview. I mean, WOW, redundant. It's so... I mean, just, wow, redundant! I mean, he says stuff and then he rephrases them EXACTLY THE SAME WAY and states them again! :lol

Here are some classic gems:

Question: Are you ready to handle going from a high schooler to a millionaire?

Stoudemire: I understand what’s ahead of me, which is more business. I have to accept the challenge. It was my decision, so now I’ve got to step up to it.

LOL. Yeah, being a millionaire, that's really tough. :lol

Question: Is there a player you’ve patterned your game after?

Stoudemire: Shawn Kemp was the player that I grew up watching, when he was with the SuperSonics. And after that it was it was just Shaq. Both of them are dominating dunkers. They dunk so hard and I tried to pattern my game after them.


:lol Ahhh, how times have changed. Wait.... a minute..... nevermind. :lol

Question: How would you describe your game?

Stoudemire: I would describe my game as powerful, a dunker, hard worker. But now I’m trying to add a little more to that. I’m trying to add a little perimeter game, ball handling, jump shots. Hard work pays off.

Never mentions defense ONCE in the article.

And Suns fans everywhere think he'll just pick it up as he goes along. :lmao

While I applaud your efforts I am confused as to how what you posted relates to my post you quoted regarding Amare having a shitty attitude.

[kps0001]

Nice, the one game Kwame got more than 6 shots he had a good game against AMare. Amare is a shit defender, sorry bro

Go back to your hell hole that is known as Cleveland. Nash is a shit defender, Boris Diaw is a shit defender. amare is not a great defender but he is by no means a shit defender. Now Cleveland, on the other hand is just a shit team, with a mega super star, that plays in a shit conference, got lucky to make it to the final and then got their ass handed to em by a far superior team. At least the Suns made it interesting and actually one a few games against the Spurs. Amare would school anyone on your shitty Cavs team except Lebron and thats all you guys have. Worthless city, worthless team, worthless poster.

[Cleveland Steamer]

Go back to your hell hole that is known as Cleveland. Nash is a shit defender, Boris Diaw is a shit defender. amare is not a great defender but he is by no means a shit defender. Now Cleveland, on the other hand is just a shit team, with a mega super star, that plays in a shit conference, got lucky to make it to the final and then got their ass handed to em by a far superior team. At least the Suns made it interesting and actually one a few games against the Spurs. Amare would school anyone on your shitty Cavs team except Lebron and thats all you guys have. Worthless city, worthless team, worthless poster.
If by intresting you mean laughable, pathetic, and no balls, I completely agree. And Amare is a shit defender.
The rest of your post I agree with






:lol

[kps0001]

If by intresting you mean laughable, pathetic, and no balls, I completely agree. And Amare is a shit defender.
The rest of your post I agree with






:lol


:lol

Whatever. You obviously didn't watch the series or are just blind and ignorant or all of the above. Even though the Suns lost it was a great series. I would safely assume that even most Spurs fans, intelligent ones, would admit it was an interesting hard fought series by both teams. San Antonio is just by far the better team and has owned us. To say it was laughable, pathetic, and no balls is just plain ignorant and holds no truth.

But if you deem our series as though things I would love to hear your take on the finals matchup. Yeah that was really interesting and competitive.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

If the Suns could trade D'Antoni for a set of "Defense for Dummies" DVDs they'd be the odds on favorites for a title with their current roster. On paper it would look like a blockbuster trade but it's really just rearranging deck chairs while the captain plots a course straight into another iceberg.

[spursreport]

Lets put it this way, they havent beat those teams with what they have either


Mavs have eliminated the Suns in a 7 game series WITH AMARE? I must have missed that series than. I do know Suns beat Dallas with Amare, but you'll make excuses saying that was Avery's first year but Amare being out all of last year isnt legit. :rolleyes

[ArgSpursFan]

If the Suns could trade D'Antoni for a set of "Defense for Dummies" DVDs they'd be the odds on favorites for a title with their current roster. On paper it would look like a blockbuster trade but it's really just rearranging deck chairs while the captain plots a course straight into another iceberg.

:lmao


BTW,I still don´t know why the suns haven´t gone after any spurs as.coach to get better on D.(read P.J)

[JMarkJohns]

I don't understand the issue with trading Marion. One main reason Minnesota was involved with Boston was for CAP space. OK, let's say a pissy Marion opts out. Wallah! Instantly 16 million is off the books!

Let's say the package is Marion/Diaw/#29/2008 Atl 1st. That's a player who'll excite and contend for an All-Star appearance in Marion, a young player who could excel with minutes and touches in Diaw, a 1st this year and a potential/likely lottery pick next year.

I'm not seeing why this is a bad thing? Worst case scenerio, depending on who's viewing, has Marion staying two years, a young Diaw at PF for five, a quality 1st (because of the depth of this draft) and a potential top-8 pick next year OR Marion opts out at year's end, Diaw mans the PF spot for five years, they still get an additional 1st this draft, plus a likely lottery pick next year.

Neither "worst case" scenerio is terrible. Marion is exciting and will fill up the stat sheet, Diaw has potential, and with minutes, his 9-per year deal isn't that bad, and two picks for the trouble of trading a player who could walk at year's end.

I'm not seeing much of a downside.

I know it's not Amare. The wolves are in no position to demand him, however. They are the one's who employ the disgruntled star. Said star is the one a season away from potentially walking for nothing to play for a contender.

Suns aren't going to be bent over by this. They'll either get Garnett on their terms, probably the above trade, or they'll pass and make another run of things...HOPEFULLY!

[dbreiden83080]

There are teams out there that can put together better deals than the Suns can to get KG. Amare is not something i would want given his knee problems and there is nothing else the Suns have that warrants getting Garnett.

[BeerIsGood!]

I know, but he took a significant amount less to play for the Spurs over the Heat and the Suns. Each of the latter teams were offering deals for close to the full MLE over several years. He signed with the Spurs for roughly half the amount because of their Title prowess.



Then why even talk of opting out? If he's not going to sign with a contending team for the MLE, then he may as well just rot in Minny for the remainder of his productive career. No contending team will have the CAP space to sign him to a MAX contract and he's no longer a player that can single handedly make a team a contender.

Also, it wouldn't cost Phoenix both Amare and Marion. If the Suns happened to bite the bullet and traded Amare for Garnett, it would likely be an Amare/Banks for Garnett type deal.

This deal gives them a frontcourt rotation of Garnett, Marion, Diaw, Thomas, plus a few late-1sts. Throw in Nash, Bell, Barbosa and Jones on the wings, and you have plenty to contend with.

I misunderstood what you were saying about Finley, but it makes sense. The only thing is that Amare/Banks would probably be rejected by the Wolves - I'm thinking Amare/Thomas would be a better fit.

Even so - 90% Sarver doesn't want to take the 10+ Million $ luxury tax hit to do this deal.

What is interesting is if KG opts out after next season and if so where he lands.

[NBA Junkie]

KG ain't winding up in Phoenix, period.

[Supergirl]

Amare could be better than KG in 1-2 years. Do they trade that for a 30-year-old PF who has played since he was 18 and never been able to take his team to the NBA Finals, despite being one of the best players in the NBA?

It sounds tempting, but this smells like a lateral move that might come back to bite the Suns in the ass in 3-4 years when Amare is still tearing it up and Nash and KG are DONE.

[dbreiden83080]

KG ain't winding up in Phoenix, period.

It is not likely the Suns have a lot of big contracts that need to be moved in order to get KG and that is the hardest thing to do in the NBA given the nature of the cap. Marion's contract is the hardest one because he can opt out after next year which gives him say over where he goes only making things harder for the Suns to get KG. These big trades happen very rarely in the NBA.

[SRJ]

Amare could be better than KG in 1-2 years. Do they trade that for a 30-year-old PF who has played since he was 18 and never been able to take his team to the NBA Finals, despite being one of the best players in the NBA?

It sounds tempting, but this smells like a lateral move that might come back to bite the Suns in the ass in 3-4 years when Amare is still tearing it up and Nash and KG are DONE.

I don't buy this at all.

Your first premise is that Amare will still be "tearing it up" in 3-4 years. This guy lives off of his legs, not his skills, and those legs have taken a big beating so far. Amare missed an entire season with a microfracture surgery, and unless he changes/expands his game, there will be more of that.

Garnett, while he has definitely spent some time up above the rim, is a skilled player. The only thing he doesn't do as well as Stoudamire is score inside, though he likely could do that if he didn't pass and shoot from the outside as well as he does.

Garnett is in great physical condition, he's a smart basketball player with every skill there is, and he plays defense. Garnett may be six years older, but judging on what I've seen, Amare is a much better bet for the glue factory in four years than Garnett is.

Second, you're going to criticize Garnett for not going to the Finals in twelve seasons even though you know good and well he's been surrounded by garbage most of that time? The one year he had good help (not great) around him, Minny won 57 games and advanced to the WCF. Amare's been on a loaded team in 05 and 07 and he couldn't get any futher than Garnett did.

I think many on the pro-Amare side are a little too impressed with his dunks, because Garnett is better than Amare at literally everything else.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I don't buy this at all.

Your first premise is that Amare will still be "tearing it up" in 3-4 years. This guy lives off of his legs, not his skills, and those legs have taken a big beating so far. Amare missed an entire season with a microfracture surgery, and unless he changes/expands his game, there will be more of that.

Garnett, while he has definitely spent some time up above the rim, is a skilled player. The only thing he doesn't do as well as Stoudamire is score inside, though he likely could do that if he didn't pass and shoot from the outside as well as he does.

Garnett is in great physical condition, he's a smart basketball player with every skill there is, and he plays defense. Garnett may be six years older, but judging on what I've seen, Amare is a much better bet for the glue factory in four years than Garnett is.

Second, you're going to criticize Garnett for not going to the Finals in twelve seasons even though you know good and well he's been surrounded by garbage most of that time? The one year he had good help (not great) around him, Minny won 57 games and advanced to the WCF. Amare's been on a loaded team in 05 and 07 and he couldn't get any futher than Garnett did.

I think many on the pro-Amare side are a little too impressed with his dunks, because Garnett is better than Amare at literally everything else.

Excellent post. And the two things that Garnett does best (defense and rebounding) are our two biggest weakness. Not to mention he isn't lazy and selfish. Bring him in.

[Spurminator]

Amare is the next Kenyon Martin. Book it.

[BacktoBasics]

The door is closing on Phoenix and in a few years they'll need to revamp a Nashless team. Amare is a great young talent but there are questions that only time can answer and well....Garnett is the better player now and the better player for at least the next 3 years to come.

If they want to contend now pull the trigger. If they think they can contend 5 years from now I guess hang onto him but I don't see them finding another Nash in 5 years.

[Supergirl]

I don't buy this at all.

Your first premise is that Amare will still be "tearing it up" in 3-4 years. This guy lives off of his legs, not his skills, and those legs have taken a big beating so far. Amare missed an entire season with a microfracture surgery, and unless he changes/expands his game, there will be more of that.

Garnett, while he has definitely spent some time up above the rim, is a skilled player. The only thing he doesn't do as well as Stoudamire is score inside, though he likely could do that if he didn't pass and shoot from the outside as well as he does.

Garnett is in great physical condition, he's a smart basketball player with every skill there is, and he plays defense. Garnett may be six years older, but judging on what I've seen, Amare is a much better bet for the glue factory in four years than Garnett is.

Second, you're going to criticize Garnett for not going to the Finals in twelve seasons even though you know good and well he's been surrounded by garbage most of that time? The one year he had good help (not great) around him, Minny won 57 games and advanced to the WCF. Amare's been on a loaded team in 05 and 07 and he couldn't get any futher than Garnett did.

I think many on the pro-Amare side are a little too impressed with his dunks, because Garnett is better than Amare at literally everything else.

I agree that Garnett is better than Amare right now. And maybe Amare will fall to another injury, and be more like Kenyon Martin. But it's also possible that Amare will go on to becoming the closest thing the league has to a "next Tim Duncan" which is an equally real possibility.

Amare hasn't had much opportunity to prove himself in Phoenix - he's had 3 seasons, one of which he missed entirely due to injury. Last season he was spectacular, but still learning. He could be due for a breakout playoffs next year.

KG could make Phoenix instant favorites for next year, but I would still wonder whether they could make it past the Spurs, esp given what they migh have to get to give him up. If they have to give up Barbosa, Marion, or some of the depth they have right now, they might not make it through a series against the Spurs. KG and TD neutralize each other, but the Spurs have Parker and Manu who Phoenix had no answer for either this past playoffs.

And after next year, when KG and Nash will be both solidly in their 30's, on the decline in terms of basketball years, then what happens? Phoenix will be stuck with two GINORMOUS contracts for two old guys.

This has the potential to make the Suns winners, but it also has the potential to bite them in the asses. That's all I'm saying.

[SRJ]

This has the potential to make the Suns winners, but it also has the potential to bite them in the asses. That's all I'm saying.

Well, that's certainly fair, and you don't seem keen on mortgaging the future for the present if you were in Steve Kerr's shoes.

Here is my rationale for pulling this trigger, conducting this explanation from the Suns' perspective:

With Amare Stoudemire in the 2005 and 2007 playoffs, we are 3-8 against the Spurs. To replace Amare with KG would make our offense more versatile, and it would improve our defense against Tim Duncan and our help defense in general. If Amare continues his career at his current level of play (and with his knee, that's hardly a given), he may begin to enter his peak as Nash declines. We may have fewer years with KG than Amare, but bringing him in now would pair him with another MVP still playing at a very high level.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from. It's a huge gamble in terms of salary and age, but with Nash's window closing they more or less have to put all their eggs in one basket. One definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over while expecting a different result each time; the Suns have tried to knock off the Spurs twice with Amare and it hasn't worked. Maybe Garnett will change that outcome.

BTW, Amare won't really become the next Duncan if it all turns out for the best. I see him as a Moses Malone without all the rebounds.

[td4mvp3]

I don't buy this at all.

Your first premise is that Amare will still be "tearing it up" in 3-4 years. This guy lives off of his legs, not his skills, and those legs have taken a big beating so far. Amare missed an entire season with a microfracture surgery, and unless he changes/expands his game, there will be more of that.

Garnett, while he has definitely spent some time up above the rim, is a skilled player. The only thing he doesn't do as well as Stoudamire is score inside, though he likely could do that if he didn't pass and shoot from the outside as well as he does.

Garnett is in great physical condition, he's a smart basketball player with every skill there is, and he plays defense. Garnett may be six years older, but judging on what I've seen, Amare is a much better bet for the glue factory in four years than Garnett is.

Second, you're going to criticize Garnett for not going to the Finals in twelve seasons even though you know good and well he's been surrounded by garbage most of that time? The one year he had good help (not great) around him, Minny won 57 games and advanced to the WCF. Amare's been on a loaded team in 05 and 07 and he couldn't get any futher than Garnett did.

I think many on the pro-Amare side are a little too impressed with his dunks, because Garnett is better than Amare at literally everything else.
given that, why would minnesotta want amare, then?

[SRJ]

Because if Garnett is going to walk at the end of his deal, the Wolves get nothing at all for KG. The Wolves are going to have to get something for him. Amare is young, and if those legs do hold up they get an explosive inside scorer for KG.

[baseline bum]

:lol Sarver
:lol Kerr horrible GM
:lol Garnett would have stayed on the bench
:lol Garnett would have played defense
:lol Donaghy
:lol Garnett probably still the better player in 2012
:lol Suns fan having to root for the Lakers so Nash can get his ring :cry

[rayjayjohnson]

:lol

[Clipper Nation]

Amare is the next Kenyon Martin. Book it.

Wrong.... Kenyon Martin is insurable.... :lol

[monosylab1k]

:lmao I forgot about this thread, the one where Suns fans were insisting that Amare was a team-first guy with a great attitude.

[Leetonidas]

Phoenix Suns :lol

[monosylab1k]

I don't understand why people excuse Amare's behavior by saying "he is young." LeBron James is 22, and he doesn't act like a child. Tony Parker is 25, and he doesn't act like a child. Carmelo Anthony doesn't act like a child.

although this might be the most retarded comment in the thread.

[baseline bum]

^ I like Extra Stout's posts normally, but that one :rollin

[LnGrrrR]

Quality bump