The Storm - who is better Tim or...

[polandprzem]

David.
Well I know that maybe is not a good idea to talk about that in here.
But I want to know yours opinion.

Thy are different players but wchich one was more valuable to this team?

[Dex]

Offhand, I'd have to go with Tim.

David did tons of great things and carried the organization on his back through the 90s, but we still didn't pick up a single ring until we got Timmy on board.

Whether Tim can repeat that success without an aging Robinson at his side remains to be seen, but we seem to like his chances this year.

[whottt]

LOL Someone asks this question every year....Allow me to try and summarize the usual arguments(not a strength of mine)

Duncan supporters: Tim brought the rings, better scorer(this in spite of Robinson scoring more PPG on a better PCT and being a better FT shooter), Duncan's numbers went up in the playoffs...Drob's went down.

Robinson supporters: Statistically superior player in his prime, didn't have the supporting cast that Duncan had...for instance...Tim Duncan had David Robinson...while David had no one of that caliber...Plus David had tougher competition at his position...Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing. Drob had like 7 coaches in 7 years..most were rookies... and the Spurs were a financially strapped organization who were nearly on th verge of moving...While Duncan has only had 1 coach in his entire career, and the Spurs situation in SA has been largely more stable.

Basically Drob usually wins the statistical argument while Duncan wins the ring argument....


I think you'll find that most of the longtime guys have a soft spot for Robinson...while most of the new guys prefer Duncan and the titles that were brought with him...The exception to this rule is that nearly all of the old fans who prefer Duncan, are also bigtime Avery Johnson fans....Figure it out :)

[whottt]

Thought of this as well...the truth is somewhere in between as to who was better...they are both fantastic players and the Spurs wouldn't be in the situation they are now in without having been incredibly lucky to get both of them.

But there is one aspect that doesn't get discussed much...

When both were at the height of their power and able to influence the organization...they used it in different ways...Drob did not use his influence to try and build a title contender like Duncan did...Drob used his influence to make the team one defined by high character....That is the truth...

IE:

If you gave Drob a choice between a low chracter guy who could help him win a title, or a high character guy who might not help that much...

Drob would choose the high character guy 10 out of 10 times...and he'd just adjust his game to fill in the team weaknesses to try and still win a title...if it took leading the team in assists, he'd just do it...if he needed to lead the NBA in scoring, he'd do that too.

Duncan likes the character but Duncan wants to win, and frankly Duncan doesn't have to worry about setting that kind of character standard because Drob already had it done by the time he got here......

Duncan has used his influence to surround himself with players who can help him win a title. Duncan deserves tremendous credit for the current dynasty potential of this team...

Duncan has used his FA leverage in his contract years to really bust the Spurs balls and make them put a championship contender together...and this includes the way he influenced getting the SBC Center built...the talent he is now surrpounded with...the Spurs had to get good at getting talent and build an NBA stadium, in short become a legitimate NBA franchise...or Duncan would not be here now.

Bottom line...the Spurs are just flat out lucky...had we got Duncan first I don't think the Spurs would still be in SA....and I don't think Duncan would have finished his career here...but without getting Duncan when we did...I don't think we'd have the team we do now that is a potential dynasty.


I'd still take big Dave in game of 1 on 1 though...he'd just be too quick for Duncan to guard...

[IcemanCometh]

Who are the only players to be on the all nba 1st team their 1st 7 years in the league?

Larry Bird (9 years)
Tim Duncan

[BronxCowboy]

By the time Robinson retired, sure, Duncan was better. But Duncan never has been and never will be as good as Robinson was at his peak. He simply doesn't have the athleticism or the strength that the Admiral had. Robinson could do it all against anybody in his prime. Duncan is key to the Spurs today, but Robinson was one of a kind.

[Rummpd]

Agreed that physically Robinson more gifted but I believe Duncan more driven and fundementally sound. Robinson more like Garnett while Duncan to me much like Hakeem. Apples and oranges great great players. My only complaint with Duncan is that he seems to take some quarters off when he could have 30+ point nights and needs to at some point demand the ball more crunch time to be one of 2-3 best big ever - he is the one of the 4 named who can move into that category potentially all said and done.

Could you imagine the hype of any of the 4 named here if they were in LA or NY?

MadDoc

[polandprzem]

Wott thank you.
I didn't know taht you were talking about it on that forum.
Well Dave had an athleticism and all that stuff but Tim realy makes the team better adn I think a little bit smareter than Dave.
They were playing one on one on trainings when Duncan came to the leauge. What was the result?

[whottt]

Wott thank you.
I didn't know taht you were talking about it on that forum.
Well Dave had an athleticism and all that stuff but Tim realy makes the team better adn I think a little bit smareter than Dave.
They were playing one on one on trainings when Duncan came to the leauge. What was the result?


The first time?

Pop said he had second thoughts about if he should have drafted Adonal Foyle instead...:)

Obviously it got better, but that Drob was not the same as the original...that was the Drob that destroyed himself by playing in the Olympics with a hernia that lead to other performance killing injuries...not to mention the injury plagued season that lead to the drafting of Duncan...

The 96-97 season is the demarkcation point of David Robinson's career...he was never the same player after that...he was still damn good...good enough to be a franchise player for a lot of teams...

And just know this...Drob still drew the toughest defensive asignments up until the last year of his career...no doubt Duncan had a better arsenal of post moves than Drob...but Drob was the total package to the nth degree as a youngman...Duncan could not have guarded Drob as well as Drob could have guarded Duncan.

Ya gotta realize that Duncan is 10 or 11 years younger than Drob...

[E20]

Actually if you look at career stats right now. David with 13 seasons and Tim with 8 seasons the numbers are very similar.

[GoSpurs21]

I think the only way to settle the this is to realize that if you switch Tim and Davids careers (Tim plays from 89-03 and David plays from 87-now every other teammate and skills set the same) the results would be:

Spurs would probably not be in SA any longer (Tim wouldn't have been as successful with Davids former teams

From 87 to now the Spurs would have won at least 4 championships. Two of the three losses to the Lakers would not have happened. David before the back troubles never lost to Snaq. That is NEVER lost to SHAQ. Add a 7ft PF to a young DRob (7ft MJ seriously)

If you dont believe it go back a watch some games from Davids 1st 5 seasons in the league. His moves to the basket were more explosive than MJs. He played excellent defense and passed better than Tim does now. David didnt need to put the ball on the floor but did it better than Tim does with less turnovers. When David caught the ball he didnt stop, think, wait, turn ball over like Tim does sometimes. When David caught the ball the reacted immediately.

Tim would have had to play against these guys in their primes Pat Ewing, C Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq, Zo, Malone
David would only have KG and Shaq to worry about now, there is no one in the league today that could stop DRob vintage 89-95

The other argument is how successful would Tim be if he didnt have Pop running the club or image if David early years were lead by 87-now Pop and financial backing. Red McCombs always tried to build a team of has beens and retreads around DRob, other than Sean Elliot.

[ShoogarBear]

My take:

-DRob was by far the better athlete. One of the top 5 who ever played the game, probably. One example: the famous story where Larry Brown promised to stop a practice short if Robinson could walk the length of the court on his hands--which he did. DRob also was much better defensively. (I think TD is a fine defender, but has always been overrated, especially in his first 2-3 years--no way was he a 1st team All-Defense ahead of DRob.)

-TD has much more polished offensive basketball skills and instincts. That Robinson was able to score so much was initially a shock to everyone, and a tribute to his pure raw ability rather than any particular basketball skill. Robinson's biggest weakness was that he never developed a fundamental go-to move, which really hurt him in his later years (in addition to the back problems).

-Statistics are tough to compare because of the significant difference in league statistics between the early 90s and the late 90s.

[polandprzem]

Right now what I can see from your posts that Dave is/was better.

I think Tim would handle the Robinson's teams. The club would be still in San Antonio.Because Tim makes teammates better. That much better. Right now you don't have an Allstar player in Spurs.
Tim would like to have that athletic body - he does't.
Dave was more of a ststistical leader, Tim is mentaly better leader.

[whottt]

-Statistics are tough to compare because of the significant difference in league statistics between the early 90s and the late 90s.

Shoogar, to me Duncan dosn't have a statistical leg to stand on in a comparison with Drob...I mean no matter how you slice it, Drob was the league leader among over his HOF caliber peers on different sides of the ball at various times in his career.

I see a lot of people say this...but if you took Hakeem, Malone, Ewing and Barkley and plopped them down in this era...you wouldn't see much of a difference.

Let's look at the guys that crossed eras...

Start with John Stockton, who has a freak career FG % for a PG of his size...Well Stockton began his career in the run n gun 80's and he ended in the defensive oriented 00's...

Yet Stockton's numbers were about the same as a 42 year old PG as they were in his late 80's and early 90's prime. Still freakish.


And you can compare Shaq this way as well...Shaq was 28 PPG scorer in DRob's era and he remained one until last season when he had to share the ball with an additional two other HOF'ers...

You say the era are slightly different...that's a good point...but simply put...there aren't as many freak talented bigmen as there were in Drob's era. That's got as much to do with the difference in eras as any rule changes...

Drob still racked up FTA like a big dog even when he was a broken down old man. And that was his offensive skill that enabled him to be dominant offensive player without a skilled arsenal of post moves...it also encouraged opponents to double him...


And as for the consistency of his offense...guys say Duncan is soft when the Spurs lose just like they did Drob...they say Duncan was afraid...Duncan choked...same BS they hit Drob with...and Duncan is fucking clutch...yet people still say this kind of crap about him when we lose.

The difference between their careers...you don't hear of an SJax or JJax or Kerr, stepping up in big playoff games and bombing our opponents with threes in Drob's prime...you do hear about it in Duncan's...and you hear about it specifically in years we won titles.

I gurantee you that Drob got guys as much or more open than Duncan did.

But if you look at it...that's as much DRob's fault as it is anyone elses'. Duncan has put tremendous pressure on the Spurs to surround him with talent..And it was Duncan that called Kerr off the bench in 03. Drob wanted to use the NBA as a springboard to other things...Duncan just wants to be a basketball player.

I still think Drob wanted to win more than he gets credit for...but it was out of a sense of duty more than anything else. Whent he Spurs won in 99...most of the Spurs, like most other champions, had a look of joy on their faces...Drob looked relieved. His duty was done. But...he wasn't going to judge his career a success or failure based on winning titles.

[Karl Mundt]

Season highs for each player:

Points per game:
Robinson, 1993: 29.8
Duncan, 2001: 25.5

Rebounds per game:
Robinson, 1990: 13.0
Duncan, 2002: 12.9

Blocks per game:
Robinson, 1991: 4.5
Duncan, 2002: 2.9 (2004 so far: 3.1 in career low minutes)

Assists per game:
Robinson, 1993: 4.8
Duncan, 2002: 3.9

Steals per game:
Robinson, 1991: 2.3
Duncan, 2003: 0.9

Field goal %:
Robinson, 1990: 55.2%
Duncan, 1997: 54.9%

I know this isn't the proper way of telling who is the better player, but it's not as flawed as counting championships either (and anyway, how many has Duncan won without Robinson?). Both are extraordinary players, but i would give the edge to David. Too bad the injuries got to him after 1996. Can you imagine what they would be doing together both in their prime?

[whottt]

I don't think the stats lie Karl, like others mentioned...Drob was a statistical and physical marvel on both sides of the ball...there aren't many made like Drob was...but they don't show every thing. There are certain things that arent' statistically fair to Duncan...Like Duncan is definitely clutch, I mean there is no doubt about it, if it's the last shot of a game, I'd prefer to have Duncan taking that shot.

Drob wasn't a choker like he is often made out to be though, he made his share of big shots and game winning plays...but there was no mystical clutchness to it...he'd make his share and he'd miss his share, regardless of the situation. While Duncan definitely qualifies as having the knack for the clutch shot.

[Nikos]

My questions to those who watched Drob in his prime:

Was Drob a much better defender than Duncan? The stats indicate Drob was a better shotblocker and also a much better thief. But was he a much better overall defender? What if Drob had a player like Rasho along his side, or another 7 footer who could block shots?

Was Drobs best support better than what Duncan has had since Drob retired? Did Drob have less help, therefore feel the need to have to do more overall?

[Mr. Body]

Robinson was a freakishly talented athlete who excelled at professional basketball and is a sure-fire Hall of Famer and had a huge impact on the game.

But Duncan just knows the game better. He's just a more talented player. He just wins more of the important games.

I don't think there's any question here. We all feel nostalgic about DRob and his career, but Duncan, when it's said and done, will be short-listed on the best-ever. It's not necessarily shown in the stats game-by-game, but how many titles he will have won and how he controlled the game around him.

Put another way, just for fun: one-on-one, who would win? Duncan, easily.

[whottt]

My questions to those who watched Drob in his prime:

Was Drob a much better defender than Duncan?

Yes, and you should be able to judge this for yourself...even the old Drob was a better defender. Even the old Drob was the anchor of the Spurs D...


The stats indicate Drob was a better shotblocker and also a much better thief. But was he a much better overall defender?

The stats don't lie. For the Spurs to win, Drob had to take the toughest D assignment as well as carry the O...Duncan has never had to do that on defense yet in order for the Spurs to win.


What if Drob had a player like Rasho along his side, or another 7 footer who could block shots?

Drob would still have been the better defender...if Ben Wallace played alongside him Drob would still have been the better defender.


Was Drobs best support better than what Duncan has had since Drob retired?

The worst supporting cast of the Duncan era would be superior to all but about 2 of Drob's teams, 89-90 and 94-95.

This is not to say that Drob didn't play on any talented teams...he did, but Drob's teams were always weak in the back court...he usually had excellent frontcourt help...and the other problems with his teams...they just didn't stay together and healthy for very long.

And now? Manu - Second best SG in Spurs history, already, yes even over Alvin. Parker - IMO already close to the best PG in Spurs history.

I mean either Duncan has a better supporting cast or Rasho is a better center than Drob was...since we are off to the best start in team history, and will finish with the best record in team history this season(barring injury)...even better than the Duncan Robinson era.





Did Drob have less help, therefore feel the need to have to do more overall?

On the scoring end this was definitely true, DRob was asked to do more, he had to do more...Defensively...well he had to do more there as well but at the same time...I gurantee you Pop wants Duncan to block as many shots as possible and I don't think he would have a problem with his bigman racking up some steals either...since that would be the last line of defense.

So I think Robinson's O numbers were definitely boosted by lack of surrounding talent and him being required to do more...but the defensive numbers...Duncan would love to put up those numbers...no matter how much help he is getting...it's not like Duncan could just bust out with 2 and half steals per game if he felt like it.

[whottt]

Put another way, just for fun: one-on-one, who would win? Duncan, easily.

No way...

Drob = Taller, longer, faster, stronger, could jump higher, could block shots better, could steal the ball better.

Duncan = Notoriously TO prone when putting the ball on the floor..prone to it getting stolen...he'd eat his share of balls and Drob would have a dunk fest and win, he wouldn't even have to shoot.

[Rick Von Braun]

Put another way, just for fun: one-on-one, who would win? Duncan, easily.Mr. Body,

David in his prime was a defensive freak. Duncan wouldn't have the speed or the strength to keep up with David. One-on-one David wins hands down.

For younger guys, imagine David as a KG with less range and array of offensive moves, but taller, stronger, probably as fast, and 10 times better defender (let's not talk about character either).

[GoSpurs21]

My questions to those who watched Drob in his prime:

Was Drob a much better defender than Duncan? The stats indicate Drob was a better shotblocker and also a much better thief. But was he a much better overall defender? What if Drob had a player like Rasho along his side, or another 7 footer who could block shots?

Was Drobs best support better than what Duncan has had since Drob retired? Did Drob have less help, therefore feel the need to have to do more overall?Image Tim moving twice a fast, that was David. DRob didnt have as many moves as Duncan, but he was so much faster. I once saw David block 3 shots in a row on the same possession. Thats how fast he was.

Just image that there was a real possibility to trade for Charles Barkley the year he went to the Suns, but Red "cheapskate" McCombs wouldnt plug the trigger.

[Nikos]

What confuses me is why were the Spurs of today (post Drob retirement) better on defense than any of the Drob led teams? Was their backcourt defense REALLY weak? I know it was not above average, but usually teams with great frontcourt defense can still be elite without having a Bowen.

Drob had Rodman and Cummings to help defensively underneath in the mid 90s, why were they never close to as good defensively as say the Knicks of that time, who like the Spurs of 03 were two of the best defensive teams of all time?

[Nikos]

For younger guys, imagine David as a KG with less range and array of offensive moves, but taller, stronger, probably as fast, and 10 times better defender (let's not talk about character either).

Ten times better defender than KG? I find that hard to beleive he is MILES better of a defender than Duncan and KG. Superior by a reasonable margin yes, but Drob was not much better than on D than Hakeem, Mutumbo, or maybe even Ewing if at all. Ok better than Ewing, but the other two is surely debatable no?

Are Duncan and KG really that much worse than the elite centers back of the mid 90s? I am having a hard time thinking they are much worse, if at all than Hakeem or Drob.

[whottt]

Put it another way..Drob in his prime was almost as good at stealing the ball as Manu...while blocking 3 1/2 to 4 shots per game.

[Nikos]

Which is why I do not understand why they were not as dominant as a team defensively as they are now. Was their backcourt/swingman defense atrocious compared to today's perimeter D?

[GoSpurs21]

What confuses me is why were the Spurs of today (post Drob retirement) better on defense than any of the Drob led teams? Was their backcourt defense REALLY weak? I know it was not above average, but usually teams with great frontcourt defense can still be elite without having a Bowen.

Drob had Rodman and Cummings to help defensively underneath in the mid 90s, why were they never close to as good defensively as say the Knicks of that time, who like the Spurs of 03 were two of the best defensive teams of all time?COACHING...COACHING...COACHING

Larry Brown was not as defensively minded
Tark...should never have coached in pros...thanks Red
Lucas only cared about out scoring opponent, minimal defense scemes
Hill only cared about O, didnt understand what Defense is

That and the players werent exactly the best defenders except Sean Elliot and Rodman, and maybe a couple others. No where near the caliber of the players and coaches we have today

I dont include Cummings because I he was over the hill when we got him. I never thought he was a good defender. He never stopped Malone or Barkley, that was always left to David.

Yesterday I watched Spurs Magic game from March 6, 2004 that my wife found this week. It was alot of fun watching Dave get 36, 13, 8, 5 against Shaq in SA on Shaq's birthday on national TV (NBC). It was the game where Rodman jumps on top of Dave, and kisses him on the top of the head after a dunk and foul. Spurs came back from being down by 17pts in the 4th quarter to win by 8.

[Nikos]

That and the players werent exactly the best defenders except Sean Elliot and Rodman, and maybe a couple others. No where near the caliber of the players we have today

Do not forget Terry Cummings. He was a solid man to man post defender despite the lack of shotblocking ability. That counts for something when they also had Rodman and Robinson. Thats enough to field a dominant defense. Unless the backcourt was real bad? Were they?

[whottt]

What confuses me is why were the Spurs of today (post Drob retirement) better on defense than any of the Drob led teams?

Because they have a brilliant defensive coach, one whose defensive systems are now copied by just about every elite team in the NBA...with the exception of the Lakers, Mavs and Kings. A coach who won't let you play if you don't play D. A coach whose D is built around funneling all plays into two shotblockers.



Drob's teams for the most part were uptempo running teams, even under Brown. Most of them were pretty good defensive teams for being the style of team they were.

But when Drob played for Brown the Spurs were usually a top 5 defensive team...



Was their backcourt defense REALLY weak? I know it was not above average, but usually teams with great frontcourt defense can still be elite without having a Bowen.

Under Brown? No.

But later? C'mon man...Vinny Del Negro? Defense? Why do you think he lasted about 1 full season under Pop?





Drob had Rodman

When the Spurs had coaches who coached offense more than defense...and you do realize that Rodman only played about a 3rd of the regular season in 94-95 right? He really only played about a season and quarter with the Spurs...and I don't think he ever played in every playoff game of a series with us. Rodman was misused int he 94-95 WCF...he should have been put on Hakeem.



and Cummings to help defensively underneath in the mid 90s,

Cummings was effectively done by the mid 90's and Cummings, while tough...was more of an offensive player than a defensive player...TC's specialty was cleaning offensive glass and under the basket muscle, he was a lot more like Moses Malone than he was Dikembe Mutombo or Dennis Rodman...

TC was the best player Drob played with after Duncan.


In any case, when a healthy TC and Drob were together under Brown I am pretty sure they were the best defensive team in the NBA at least once.

And the Pistons were the best defensive team at that time, not the Knicks.


why were they never close to as good defensively as say the Knicks of that time,

Then? They didn't have the back court to do it or a coach who preached it...why do you think Pop fired him?

[exstatic]

David was an athletic freak, and a defender non pariel, but was never driven to success, unless you count Avery nagging him. Tim isn't near the athlete, but has a post game that is MILES better than anything David ever had, and is obsessed with winning. I don't remember David ever skipping a plane ride back with the team after a playoff series loss. Strangely enough, if I had a team with David in his prime and Tim in his prime, David would be the 4 and Tim the 5. Davids offense was always predicated on cutting, driving, and shooting, with a few putbacks for good measure. Tim is much more of a post player. I think you're seeing Tim blossom on D and on the boards this years, since he doesn't have to carry the offense on his back anymore. I now think it's possible at some time for Tim to win a rebounding crown, which he narrowly missed a couple of years back, and a blocked shots crown, sporting a career high in career low (<35mbg) playing time. The scoring crown will always elude him, I feel. If David had worked as hard on his game as Tim has on his, he would have been THE best center ever, instead of on of the best.

[Nikos]

The Knicks defense of 92-93, and 93-94 were as good as it gets. They took the Pistons scheme and played it even better than they did. They just did not have the offensive talent to win titles.

TC was a good man to man defender in 9394, but the Spurs were 10th on defense that season. Rodman played 79 games, but TC only played 59 games. Plus Dale Ellis, Willie Anderson, and Vinny DelNego were weak to mediocre defenders. This is the reason I guess they were not an excellent defensive team that season. Backcourt must have been really weak though considering Rodman and Drob were essentially healthy.

You have a point with the 1994-95 season though. Rodman was out 33 games. And they were still 6th best on defense. Impressive. Thank Drob for that. They might have been the best that year if Rodman was healthy. Maybe not as good as the Spurs of 0304, but elite for sure. And that is with an above average perimeter defender (except maybe Elliot at times).

So it was a combo of the system that focused a bit more on offense, mediocre perimeter D, and injuries that kept them from being elite on defense.

[whottt]

Which is why I do not understand why they were not as dominant as a team defensively as they are now. Was their backcourt/swingman defense atrocious compared to today's perimeter D?

See everyone says this is a different era..and to an extent that is true, but it's not so much the game that has changed as the talent...at the same time..man they had more guys who could fucking score and shoot back then...Probably more dunkers know...but your Hakeems, Birds, McHales, Worthys and Barkleys and Magic Johnsons and Jordans and Drexlers and Malones...those guys could fucking score back then...they were better offensive players than these guys we have today are...these guys today are dunkers...Only guys we have liked that that are around today are guys like Peja and Dirk and Duncan and Cassell..Ray Allen...those guys would fit very well in that era...there was just betteer offensive players and that's a big reason it was a better offensive era.




When it was guys like Willie Anderson, Strick and especially Wingate the Spurs had an excellent D IIRC.

Unfortunately they weren't together and healthy for that long.

In the mid 90's...

AJ busted his ass playing D, which is why everyone loves him... but he just wasn't that good of a defender, he was a lot better when he had Duncan and Robinson behind him, 2 HOF bigmen..2 shotblockers...and Vinny sucked at it...Person was pretty decent..Ellis sucked at it...

[Nikos]

there was just betteer offensive players and that's a big reason it was a better offensive era.

I disagree to some extent here. Their were a few more offensive weapons up front back in the 90s, but the pace of the game was faster back then as well. More easier shots, thus more efficient offenses and less teams focusing on defense and walk-a-thons.

I would say today the talent has spilled over in the PF position as opposed to C. Also as a whole there more talented scorers at the 1 and 2 spot then back in the early 90s. Sure the elite players collectively have an edge on todays elite players, but today I would say there are plenty more scorers at the 2 spot and 1 spot than yesteryear.

Positions are being redefined as we speak.

[whottt]

The Knicks defense of 92-93, and 93-94 were as good as it gets. They took the Pistons scheme and played it even better than they did. They just did not have the offensive talent to win titles.

TC was a good man to man defender in 9394,

TC was a washed up stiff legged stiff who could barely move by 93-94. You mistake his toughness and trying to hang on in the NBA for defensive ability. I mean do you think he just decided to stop playing O for the hell of it? He was crippled.

And Willie was in about the same condition by 93-94.

And anyway Rasho is a better shotblocker than any guy Drob played with, hell Robert Horry is as well...you could not play this style of D on those teams.

And 93-94 we had fucking Vinny as our PG...man and a half dead Sleepy Floyd as his back up. That is not the recipe for winning an NBA title or leading the league in D.



but the Spurs were 10th on defense that season. Rodman played 79 games, but TC only played 59 games. Plus Dale Ellis, Willie Anderson, and Vinny DelNego were weak to mediocre defenders. This is the reason I guess they were not an excellent defensive team that season. Backcourt must have been really weak though considering Rodman and Drob were essentially healthy.

Nikos...by 93-94 TC had destroyed his knee in a pick up game...Willie Anderson had chronic shinsplints, Dale Ellie was fucking old...That team was garbage other than Rodman and Robinson...all you gotta do is look at the numbers Drob had to put up that season to keep us competitive.

Do you think Duncan would have won 55 games with that team? Man I just don't see it. It'd be one thing if those shooters we surrounded Drob with were clutch..but how many of those guys wound up with any rings?


You have a point with the 1994-95 season though. Rodman was out 33 games. And they were still 6th best on defense. Impressive. Thank Drob for that.

And Elliott.


They might have been the best that year if Rodman was healthy. Maybe not as good as the Spurs of 0304, but elite for sure. And that is with an above average perimeter defender (except maybe Elliot at times).

Tell you what...take Cassell and Elie off that Rockets team and make Pop our coach and we'll see a different result in that series.

[Nikos]

TC was still a good low post defender in 1993-94, he pushed his man off the block as well as anyone in the league from what I remember.

I agree with the Rodman and Robinson part, but I still think Cummings was a good defensive player for them for a bit.

Yes, I can understand why they were never elite on D or good enough to win a title in 1993-94. Poor perimeter defense kept them from being a title contender that year. Also the fact they did not have much diversity in their offense on the perimeter in 1993-94.

[BronxCowboy]

Which is why I do not understand why they were not as dominant as a team defensively as they are now. Was their backcourt/swingman defense atrocious compared to today's perimeter D?

I would say that the Spurs definitely have better perimeter D now than they did then. But the Admiral OWNED the paint on every defensive possession before he got hurt. I think Whottt mentioned seeing him block three shots in a row . . . I saw that too, more than once. Only Hakeem was in the same category at the time.

[whottt]

If there is any one who has questions about what kind of teams those were without David Robinson I have an experiment for you...

If you can find a site...You go take every team that won a title in Drob's prime, just the era of 89-95... find the games where their best star was injured or not on the team...and then look at the W-L record of those teams without their guy.

And then compare it to Drob's teams...and we don't even have to use the 96-97 season....

I gurantee you those other guys teams, even in years they didn't win a title...had a better record, my guess is a winning record, than the Spurs without Drob.

This means Hakeem.
This means Magic.
This means Bird.
This means Barkley.

And this means Jordan.

And by the way, this means Duncan as well.

I saw more wins than losses last year when Duncan was injured...I saw wins when Hakeem was injured, I saw 55 wins with Jordan not on his team for the entire year...I never saw anything but losses when Drob was not on the court for the Spurs.


And Exs...Duncan is not some unstoppable post season demon...whose will to win overcomes all odds....

Duncan's numbers suck when he gets doubled and get no perimeter help as well...

Duncan was held to 5 points in the playoffs the first year we won a title..and we won that game...he was held to 9 points against the Lakers in 01, he had a 10 TO game against LA in 02 just getting doubled for the 4th quarter.

We blew 4 4th quarter double digit leads in 02 against LA with Smitty chucking up bricks...when did Drob do that? No matter how overmatched we were?


Duncan he had shitty numbers in that Phoenix series the year we won the title andhe was getting doubled...he's not some unstoppable offensive force in the playoffs if his guys aren't hitting shots. No one is...not Shaq, not Wilt, Not Kareem, no one is. Drob may not have dfined himself by winning as much as a lot of guys...that doesn't mean he wasn't trying just as hard.

[ALVAREZ6]

why does everyone type so much, i cant read all that.

[Nikos]

I am not disputing Drob's greatness as an NBA player, I am just trying to understand how good his support was.

Either way, I still do not think he is miles better as a player than either Hakeem or Duncan. But I do acknowledge that a few regular seasons he had were as good as it gets statistically in terms of impact on both ends of the floor and W-L's created by an individual player.

Drob was as good as it gets in the regular season in the mid 90's. In the playoffs he did not always have the support, but I still think he would be regarded as one of the great players of all time if he won the title in 1994-95. He would probably be held in a higher regard than Hakeem right now. Sure Hakeem had a more clutch supporting cast, but I still think that 95 WCF series was winnable.

[whottt]

Skip over my posts and you won't have to read as much, I get carried away on this topic more than any other...but..you'll know the true score if you read mine.

[whottt]

Either way, I still do not think he is miles better as a player than either Hakeem or Duncan.

.

You know what? I don't think any Drob fans have ever tried to argue that he was miles better than Shaq, or Hakeem, especially Hakeem, or Duncan...only that he was the same caliber of player, every bit the same caliber of player...and the reasons he didn't win had a lot more to do with his supporting cast and the way the Spurs franchise was run at that time than it did with any lack of desire to win on his part...

I mean if you want to blame him you can blame him for certain things, for not putting enough pressure on the Spurs to surround him with talent to win a championship....but those things have nothing to do with what he did on the court...On the court he was as good as any of the bigmen that played during his career..he carried lesser talent better than just about any of them IMO...and he played harder night in and night out during the regular season than any of them.

[smeagol]

Skip over my posts and you won't have to read as much, I get carried away on this topic more than any other...but..you'll know the true score if you read mine.
Your posts, which sometimes are a mixture between poetry and smack, are just fine.

The posts I hate to read are those long articles, specially in the political forum.

[Brodels]

Either way, I still do not think he is miles better as a player than either Hakeem or Duncan.

Hakeem was better than David.

[Nikos]

Hakeem was better than David.

I actually think so too, but the edge is not huge IMO.

But for the sake of the argument with Whott I used those terms.

I would rank Hakeem #1 by a slight margin, and I would say Shaq and Drob are not far behind. Maybe I give Shaq the edge over Drob only cause he had better results. But overall I feel all three are very close.

Duncan should have his own legacy if he can win a title with this crew.

[whottt]

I actually think so too, but the edge is not huge IMO.

But for the sake of the argument with Whott I used those terms.

I would rank Hakeem #1 by a slight margin, and I would say Shaq and Drob are not far behind. Maybe I give Shaq the edge over Drob only cause he had better results. But overall I feel all three are very close.

Duncan should have his own legacy if he can win a title with this crew.

It's too hard to argue against Hakeem because his career stats are awesome and he beat every other great center of his era...including Kareem. Besides it's another topic entirely and I usually only do it against shithead Rocket fans or DRob haters.

Just know...Hakeem got to play with Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen on the same team and came away ringless. Hakeem had not 1 but 2 AS guards on that 94-95 team...A guy who was or would be an AS guard has beent he common element to every NBA champion in history with the exception of the 98-99 Spurs...(Jury is still out on the 02-03 Spurs and Last years Pistons)

Just know, Drob had a 32-12 record head to head against Hakeem. And that Hakeem had a season in which he was healthy and failed to make the playoffs.

And just be sure you guys put Hakeem over Shaq for the same reasons you do over DRob...one playoff series against the defending champs....Hakeem swept Shaq that year.

Hakeem may have been better, but it's not like Drob doesn't belong on the court with him and in the same class...Hakeem, Drob and Kareem make up an elite class of Center...the Super Center...who could do it all on both sides of the ball. Wilt probably deserves inclusion into this club but I don't have his defensive stats...so Wilt just gets to be in his own club as the greatest player ever IMO.


For a soft guy who didn't care about the game, who didn't love the game, who choked and who had to be provoked into playing hard...

Drob had one hell of a good career...as many rings as Hakeem, beat Hakeem by nearly a 3-1 margin in their head to head meetings....and Hakeem had some pretty decent teamates as well.

[GoSpurs21]

Hakeem may have been slighty better than Big Dave, but at least Dave took the high ground and went out a champion instead of milking money well after his playing days were over.

By the way when Kareem lost to Hakeem he was in his 50s and Hakeem was in his mid 20s.

[whottt]

Your posts, which sometimes are a mixture between poetry and smack, are just fine

LOL thanks smeagol :). I tend to like reading long arguments myself, and if other people are doing them I don't post as much.

[Brodels]

You know, I do believe that Hakeem was slightly better than DRob, but I expected a lot more people on this forum to vehemently disagree. I started a battle blog a while back with the title "DRob was Hakeem's Bitch" and nobody took it one. I'm surprised by that.

[exstatic]

I think Snaqs legacy will suffer in Miami. Those titles in LA will be revealed to be Shaq/Kobe titles instead of SHAQ/kobe ones, as he would have had us believe. David fared very well against Snaq until his back was injured and basicly held his own after that. I would give David an edge in both the smarts and athleticism departments, basicly because Snaq ate his way out of the latter and never had the former.

[ZStomp]

David.
Well I know that maybe is not a good idea to talk about that in here.
But I want to know yours opinion.

Thy are different players but wchich one was more valuable to this team?

I would have to say Tim because DROB is not part of this team. :spin

[tsb2000]

Everyone mentions that Dave never won a ring without Tim, but I'd say there really can't be any real argument until Tim can win without Dave. :)

I'd have paid good money to sit in on practices back then where Tim and Dave would go head to head to see who was better.

[IcemanCometh]

Sam Cassell was an all-star all of 1 time, last year. David Robinson got to play with an all-star too you know, Sean Elliot, Dennis Rodman and Terry Cummings too.

[whottt]

Don't forget Moses Malone...

[travis2]

I would say that the Spurs definitely have better perimeter D now than they did then. But the Admiral OWNED the paint on every defensive possession before he got hurt. I think Whottt mentioned seeing him block three shots in a row . . . I saw that too, more than once. Only Hakeem was in the same category at the time.

I remember that 3-blocks-in-1 masterpiece...I just don't remember who it was against.

My favorite highlight (and a real measure of the kind of athlete he was on BOTH sides of the court) is one from (I think) his rookie year...he blocks a shot, one of the Spurs guards picks it up and races downcourt on the break...DRob outruns him down the middle, gets the pass from the guard on the fly (literally!) and flushes it home at full speed. His body was damn near horizontal as it swung underneath the rim after the flush.

[IcemanCometh]

I'm curious what 2 all star guards did hakeem play with in 94-95, since you mentioned the other guard who would become an all-star.

[whottt]

I'm curious what 2 all star guards did hakeem play with in 94-95, since you mentioned the other guard who would become an all-star.


Sam Cassell...was the one who would become one...

Clyde Drexler would be the one that was one...

Furthermore...if you are looking for an AS guard Drob played with, in an attempt to make a totally unrelated claim that AJ and Vinny were a good enough guard combo to win an NBA title with, when it meant taking out the defneding champions...

Try Dale Ellis.

Yeah I know he wasn't there that year...but since you didn't understand any other part of the point I was trying to make...I figured what the hell, why try and explain it, let's go with it.

AJ > Magic Johnson
Vinny > MJ

Anything else?

Oh yeah...Duncan could have won an NBA title without Drob, as long as he had AJ.

[tlongII]

LeBron is better.

[IcemanCometh]

1990: West Conf Semis (4-3): Portland Trail Blazers over San Antonio Spurs
59-23, Finished 2nd in NBA Pacific Division 56-26, Finished 1st in NBA Midwest Division
1991: West Conf 1st Rd (3-1): Golden State Warriors over San Antonio Spurs
44-38, Finished 4th in Pacific Division 55-27, Finished 1st in NBA Midwest Division
1992: West Conf 1st Rd (3-0): Phoenix Suns over San Antonio Spurs
53-29, Finished 3rd in NBA Pacific Division 47-35, Finished 2nd in NBA Midwest Division
1993: West Conf Semis (4-2): Phoenix Suns over San Antonio Spurs
62-20, Finished 1st in NBA Pacific Division 49-33, Finished 2nd in NBA Midwest Division
1994: West Conf 1st Rd (3-1): Utah Jazz over San Antonio Spurs
53-29, Finished 3rd in NBA Midwest Division 55-27, Finished 2nd in NBA Midwest Division
1995: West Conf Finals (4-2): Houston Rockets over San Antonio Spurs
47-35, Finished 3rd in NBA Midwest Division 62-20, Finished 1st in NBA Midwest Division
1996: West Conf Semis (4-2): Utah Jazz over San Antonio Spurs
55-27, Finished 2nd in NBA Midwest Division 59-23, Finished 1st in NBA Midwest Division

[whottt]

You point? That Hakeem took it off in the regular season? That Drob carried teams better? I already knew that.

Tell me...when the Rockets had both AJ and Kenny Smith...which one did they keep? Which one did they boot the fuck out of town?

It would have been nice if Drob had back up PGs coming off the bench and dropping 30 on the Rockets when they tried to double him...unfortunately, Drob didn't even have a starting PG that could score that much, ever, in the regular season, or in the playoffs,...he had the guy that gives up 30 points to back up PG's...

I know, I know, Drob was supposed to guard Cassell...while he was guarding Hakeem. AJ was doing his part...he was being bossy while getting worked the fuck off the court...what AJ did best.

[CosmicCowboy]

Which is why I do not understand why they were not as dominant as a team defensively as they are now. Was their backcourt/swingman defense atrocious compared to today's perimeter D?

coaching

Pop stresses from day one that you play defense first, you play HIS defensive system, or you don't play at all...I personally think that is the biggest difference.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

DRob, hands down. An athletic freak show, better defender in his prime, and his offensive game was just as complete as Duncan's, except maybe for the crazy ass glass skills.

[bigzak25]

I pick TD as the better overall player. Would our title chances be greater with an in his prime DRob on todays squad instead of TD? It's debateable, but I don't think so. And visions of Hakeem in '95 still hurt. Even so, it's a tough choice...both are eventual Hall of Famers and #1 and #1a on Spurs Top Player list.

[Sec24Row7]

Duncan is twice the player that Robinson was.

D-Rob couldn't play with his back to the basket and couldn't shoot anything outside a midrange jumper. He also couldn't finish to save his life.

Robinson is definitely the better athlete of the two, I will give you that, but dont let sentiment get in your way when making the decision of who is better.

Duncan will be remembered as 1 of the top 10 players of all time. Robinson isn't in the top 25.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

How on earth did Robinson manage a scoring title if his offensive game was as limited as you make it sound?

[Brodels]

DRob, hands down. An athletic freak show, better defender in his prime, and his offensive game was just as complete as Duncan's, except maybe for the crazy ass glass skills.

That's a little bit of a stetch. David was the better defender, but for all of this athleticism, his offensive game wasn't as complete as Duncan's. David had no quality back-to-the-basket moves in the post. He dominated with pure athleticism. He wasn't near as fundamentally sound offensively as some of the other top centers.

That's not a knock on him. He dominated by using his talent and athleticism, and there isn't anything wrong with that. But to claim that he was as offensively complete as Duncan is quite a reach.

[whottt]

Ben Wallace > Shaq
Chauncey Billups > Kobe[/Weak ass Playoff logic]

[bigzak25]

Ben Wallace > Shaq
Chauncey Billups > Kobe[/Weak ass Playoff logic]


you say that like it's not true. :smokin