Charles Barkley's Assessment of Dirk Today

[Jimmy1234]

Barkley was on the Jen Engle show with Mike Taylor and Matt Mosley this morning...and he made this point about DIRK

he said a lot of the criticism is so unfair to DIRK, because he along with lebron james cannot have a bad game because if they do, then their team is dead....he said those 2 players are the only ones that can claim this....and he said look at dirk's supporting cast...phx has 3 all stars, san antonio has 3, etc. but the MAVS have great options but not 2 all stars yet...dirk's the only one....and so much is put on his shoulder........he said its not really fair to dirk a lot of times when he gets the criticism he does because the team relies so much on him playing great.

I agree!

[Findog]

Barkley was on the Jen Engle show with Mike Taylor and Matt Mosley this morning...and he made this point about DIRK

he said a lot of the criticism is so unfair to DIRK, because he along with lebron james cannot have a bad game because if they do, then their team is dead....he said those 2 players are the only ones that can claim this....and he said look at dirk's supporting cast...phx has 3 all stars, san antonio has 3, etc. but the MAVS have great options but not 2 all stars yet...dirk's the only one....and so much is put on his shoulder........he said its not really fair to dirk a lot of times when he gets the criticism he does because the team relies so much on him playing great.

I agree!

Dirk put up 19, 10 and 3 in the GS series, which isn't MVP-worthy, but it's still All Star caliber with double and triple teams swarming him. He had one truly terrible game in G6. He didn't play up to his standards, but his teammates didn't pick up their games and make the Warriors pay for the defensive attention keyed on him. Who had a good series on Dallas, besides maybe Diop, our seventh-best player? Does anyone want to seriously argue that our interior defense doesn't suffer when our starting C is out with a torn rotator cuff? Did Dirk guard Baron Davis?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_22443.shtml

Scouts and coaches know what happened in that series. Watch the "Dirk is a choker/has no heart/guts" posts roll in. Apparently a lot of opposing fans are psychiatrists or otherwise employed in the field of mental health.

[Pistons < Spurs]

While he makes valid points that I agree with for the most part, I still have to call BS.

Dirk and Lebron, perhaps moreso than any other players out there (You can also throw in Wade and Kobe---but they've atleast won rings) get more hype, love and attention than anyone else in the game. If they can accept all the praise when things are clicking, then they can also deal with the focus being on them when things go wrong. It's simply the price they pay. And I definitely do not feel bad for either of them.

[shyne]

I could have sworn Josh Howard was an All-star this year.

[Findog]

While he makes valid points that I agree with for the most part, I still have to call BS.

Dirk and Lebron, perhaps moreso than any other players out there (You can also throw in Wade and Kobe---but they've atleast won rings) get more hype, love and attention than anyone else in the game. If they can accept all the praise when things are clicking, then they can also deal with the focus being on them when things go wrong. It's simply the price they pay. And I definitely do not feel bad for either of them.

I'm all for honest evaluations of a player's game. LeBron is the guy talking about being a "global icon," whatever that means, Dirk is the guy who always takes care to credit teammates and coaches when things go well and to take the blame when things go wrong. It's wrong to gloss over a player's flaws and it's wrong to pile on and make more of something than what is there. Dirk's a great player, and implicit in some of the criticism coming from other fanbases is that he's worthless if he doesn't lead a team to a title. In the last 20 years, only Magic, Isaiah, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq/Kobe and Wade can say they've done that. There's some level of respect that those fans refuse to acknowledge if they're expecting that from Dirk and piling on when he fails to measure up to that standard.

[Findog]

I could have sworn Josh Howard was an All-star this year.

All-Star injury replacement at forward. Marion, Melo, Rashard, Artest, > Howard.

[SpursFanInAustin]

I could have sworn Josh Howard was an All-star this year.

Exactly!

And we heard all season from Dallas fans that the Mavs were the deepest team in the NBA filled with youth and athleticism while the Spurs were old and on the decline, and stuff like Mavs big 4 > Spurs big 4

:rolleyes :sleep

[shyne]

He was the only one that showed up against Golden State, he deserved to be an all star

[SpursFanInAustin]

He was the only one that showed up against Golden State, he deserved to be an all star

I also thought Jerry Stackhouse stepped up quite a bit as well.

[ShoogarBear]

Dirk put up 19, 10 and 3 in the GS series, which isn't MVP-worthy, but it's still All Star caliber with double and triple teams swarming him. He had one truly terrible game in G6. He didn't play up to his standards, but his teammates didn't pick up their games and make the Warriors pay for the defensive attention keyed on him. Who had a good series on Dallas, besides maybe Diop, our seventh-best player? Does anyone want to seriously argue that our interior defense doesn't suffer when our starting C is out with a torn rotator cuff? Did Dirk guard Baron Davis?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_22443.shtml

Scouts and coaches know what happened in that series. Watch the "Dirk is a choker/has no heart/guts" posts roll in. Apparently a lot of opposing fans are psychiatrists or otherwise employed in the field of mental health.So then is Dirk the MVP or not? Yes or no.

[ChumpDumper]

So mavfan doesn't think his roster is that good now?

[monosylab1k]

Mavs fans can make excuses for him all they want, but it's pretty evident.

Other than a flash of greatness against San Antonio last year, Dirk has been a pretty mediocre playoff performer ever since assuming the role of "The Man" on the team.

[td4mvp3]

Barkley was on the Jen Engle show with Mike Taylor and Matt Mosley this morning...and he made this point about DIRK

he said a lot of the criticism is so unfair to DIRK, because he along with lebron james cannot have a bad game because if they do, then their team is dead....he said those 2 players are the only ones that can claim this....and he said look at dirk's supporting cast...phx has 3 all stars, san antonio has 3, etc. but the MAVS have great options but not 2 all stars yet...dirk's the only one....and so much is put on his shoulder........he said its not really fair to dirk a lot of times when he gets the criticism he does because the team relies so much on him playing great.

I agree!
weren't finley and nash all-stars? didn't duncann win it all before gino and parker were all-stars? at the least, gino was the only all-star in 05.

[Jimmy1234]

I also thought Jerry Stackhouse stepped up quite a bit as well.


Please, Brickhouse bricked for 33% shooting in that series. Wow, he really stepped up his game... :lol

[itzsoweezee]

hilarious, so now dirk doesn't have any other great players on his team. wasn't it just a few months ago all the mavs fans were talking about how much better the mavs trio is better than the spurs trio?

[ShoogarBear]

For one 56-game stretch, they were the best that ever lived . . .

[shyne]

No way Dirk is the MVP cause hes a pussy. He settled for jumpers the whole series, cause he was scared that he was gonna take hard shots from GS. Once he started missing, he just kept shooting, but still knowing what he needed to do. I mean come on its Dirk the refs would have put him at the line like 50 times a game.

[Findog]

So then is Dirk the MVP or not? Yes or no.

No, Duncan is better than Dirk. Duncan should win it every year but media types find that repetitive.

[Findog]

So mavfan doesn't think his roster is that good now?

Who played well in that series against Golden State? Dirk wasn't the only guy to underperform, that's all I'm saying.

[Findog]

Mavs fans can make excuses for him all they want, but it's pretty evident.

Other than a flash of greatness against San Antonio last year, Dirk has been a pretty mediocre playoff performer ever since assuming the role of "The Man" on the team.

He's been "the Man" since the first year at the AAC. Since that time, I count seven series wins, a trip to the Finals and another trip to the conference Finals, and a 4-0 record in Game 7. And you want Garnett of all people to replace him?

[E20]

The same could be said about Kobe.

[ShoogarBear]

Mavs are 4-0 in game sevens with Dirk? Now that's interesting, I didn't realize that.

[Findog]

Mavs are 4-0 in game sevens with Dirk? Now that's interesting, I didn't realize that.

5-0 in series-deciding games if you count the win over Utah back in the old first round format. Of those five games, he played subpar in only one of those -- G7 against Houston in 2005. The other four, he came to play.

[monosylab1k]

He's been "the Man" since the first year at the AAC. Since that time, I count seven series wins, a trip to the Finals and another trip to the conference Finals, and a 4-0 record in Game 7. And you want Garnett of all people to replace him?

Good for him. Spin the numbers however you like, but that's all you're doing.

He's also been a part of a team that blew a 3-0 series lead to Portland and damn near lost game 7, went down 0-2 to a vastly inferior Houston team and allowed them to stretch it to 7 (not expending all that energy against Houston would have helped tremendously against a beatable Phoenix team that Dirk didn't exactly light it up against either), and of course the flameouts of the past 2 seasons where each time a guy 4 inches shorter than him found a way to thoroughly dominate him despite his "matchup nightmare" status.

How about the fact that for the better part of a decade people have been saying "Dirk needs to get a post game" and every year we hear reports of "Dirk is working on a post game" and every year when we lose we say "Where is Dirk's post game?".....every year we say "Dirk needs to be more aggressive" and Dirk says "I need to be more aggressive" and every year we wonder why Dirk isn't aggressive when it matters most.

Oh, and a free throw here and there, and this team is a champion. He's a 90% free throw shooter. Excuse for that?

He had a brilliant series against San Antonio last year, but aside from that, he has not shown an ability to carry a team. Each year our playoff "hero" is Nash or Finley or Van Exel or Terry or someone else that isn't "The Man"......aside from one brilliant series, it has not been Dirk.

[ambchang]

Josh Howard was an all-star this year, and only Parker was one. Ginobili was not an all-star this year, and if you mean former all-stars, so was Stackhouse, two-time all-star, in fact.

[RonMexico]

One thing is right - the Mavs do not have 2 all-stars, proving again that Josh Howard was merely a shoo-in because the Mavs had the best record at the All-Star break.

[Testing]

It's not so much that they had bad games, but Dirk is not exactly the type of player that makes his team-mates better. If he isn't scoring/rebounding he doesn't do much else. He's not the best passer, he's not a great defender/shot blocker, he doesn't bring intangibles like good leadership, hustle, etc. That's my biggest criticism for him.


Dirk and Lebron have plenty of holes in their games....ironically, both need to learn to post-up better. Other big time players who win championships like Duncan do other things for their teams when they aren't scoring to help them win.

When Dirk isn't scoring, he doesn't impact a game. You can't win championships with a superstar like this, no matter how great your support cast is or isn't. Because you're go to guy doesn't neccesarily have to be reliable so much as versatile and I don't think Dirk is.

[td4mvp21]

Dirk has some of the best teammates in the league. JHo and Terry are damn good players, both of course have weaknesses, but they are also very good. Stackhouse, Dampier, and Harris are better than most of what the other teams in the league have. Dirk and his whole team choked. No one took it to the hole. They all went into pussy mode, with Dirk leading the way.

[Switchman]

The Mavericks highest paid player won a ring this year. Booyah.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk has some of the best teammates in the league. JHo and Terry are damn good players, both of course have weaknesses, but they are also very good. Stackhouse, Dampier, and Harris are better than most of what the other teams in the league have. Dirk and his whole team choked. No one took it to the hole. They all went into pussy mode, with Dirk leading the way.

that is exactly it right there.

All the excuses in the world can be made about the supporting players, but they are just following the leader. If Dirk nuts up and gets the job done, the fall in line accordingly (San Antonio last year). If Dirk goes into pussy mode, their going to do the exact same thing (Golden State this year, Miami last year, Phoenix and to an extent Houston the year before, Sacramento before that).

[Findog]

He's also been a part of a team that blew a 3-0 series lead to Portland and damn near lost game 7,

Won that series, he was clutch in Game 7


went down 0-2 to a vastly inferior Houston team and allowed them to stretch it to 7

Won that series too with Terry, Howard and Finley getting good looks because he was triple-teamed



(not expending all that energy against Houston would have helped tremendously against a beatable Phoenix team that Dirk didn't exactly light it up against either)

Phoenix was better that year, he wasn't the guy who failed to check Nash coming across midcourt


and of course the flameouts of the past 2 seasons where each time a guy 4 inches shorter than him found a way to thoroughly dominate him despite his "matchup nightmare" status.

He got double and triple-teamed and still put up 20 and 10. And we didn't have an answer for Wade or Davis. Is that his fault?


How about the fact that for the better part of a decade people have been saying "Dirk needs to get a post game" and every year we hear reports of "Dirk is working on a post game" and every year when we lose we say "Where is Dirk's post game?".....every year we say "Dirk needs to be more aggressive" and Dirk says "I need to be more aggressive" and every year we wonder why Dirk isn't aggressive when it matters most.

Dirk is not a back to the basket scorer. Period. He's a shooting guard in a PF's body. That's what makes him so dangerous. He can just shoot over guys. And he's done a damn good job of attacking the basket more, but it's not by settling on the low blocks, it's by driving and facing the rim. We could use more interior scoring, we had it when Jamison was on the roster and Juwan Howard was on the roster. Blame the FO for not acquiring it instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Tim Duncan can hit an 18-footer consistently, does that mean Pop should move him out to shooting guard?



Oh, and a free throw here and there, and this team is a champion. He's a 90% free throw shooter. Excuse for that?

He's supposed to hit 100% of his fts? Wade missed two straight FT's with 20 seconds to go in G6 that would've iced it and gave us another chance, you wanna argue Wade isn't clutch?


He had a brilliant series against San Antonio last year, but aside from that, he has not shown an ability to carry a team.

So he had nothing to do with those 8 series wins? Just a spectator along for the ride?


Each year our playoff "hero" is Nash or Finley or Van Exel or Terry or someone else that isn't "The Man"......aside from one brilliant series, it has not been Dirk

I just wonder who you expected us to beat from 2001-2005 when we were eliminated? The spurs in 2001? the kings in 2002? the spurs in 2003? the suns in 2005? we were on an equal footing with the kings in 2004, three of those four losses came down to a final possession, finley missed a shot in G2, nash missed a shot in G4 and Dirk missed one in G5. Are you gonna give Nash and finley a pass but not dirk?

He was subpar against GS, the whole damn team was. If we're going to throw out Dirk on the basis of that one series, then we need to get rid of the whole team based on that ephemeral logic.

[monosylab1k]

Won that series, he was clutch in Game 7

The point is, being up 3-0, should that have ever gone to 7?


Won that series too with Terry, Howard and Finley getting good looks because he was triple-teamed

He was never triple-teamed. I don't think you remember much of that series. I recall a certain lanky white guy who I don't think is even in the league anymore receiving the nickname "Germanator" because despite his lack of any discernible basketball talent, Dirk played like shit when he guarded him. Oh yeah, Ryan Bowen.


Phoenix was better that year, he wasn't the guy who failed to check Nash coming across midcourt

I'd argue that Phoenix was not better that year, that they may have had some matchup advantages but so did we, and overall the series was a push...but with a stronger performance out of Dirk and less finger pointing at Dampier, Dallas could have won that series.


Dirk is not a back to the basket scorer. Period. He's a shooting guard in a PF's body. That's what makes him so dangerous. He can just shoot over guys.

So how does that explain 6'-8" Stephen Jackson and 6'-8" Udonis Haslem?


Tim Duncan can hit an 18-footer consistently, does that mean Pop should move him out to shooting guard?

No, but having that shot available to him makes him that much more dangerous. Dirk has no semi-reliable post game to speak of that adds to his versatility.

I'm sorry but saying "Dirk is not a post player" is akin to just saying "Dirk is one dimensional". And I don't think that The Man of any team needs to be described as one dimensional.


He's supposed to hit 100% of his fts?

He's supposed to hit them when it matters the most, like for instance, the closing minutes of an NBA Finals game.

Duncan is in no way a good FT shooter but have you EVER seen him miss when his team absolutely needs those points?


Wade missed two straight FT's with 20 seconds to go in G6 that would've iced it and gave us another chance, you wanna argue Wade isn't clutch?

Dirk misses clutch FT's, Wade takes advantage of it. Wade misses clutch FT's, and Dirk...


So he had nothing to do with those 8 series wins? Just a spectator along for the ride?

He wasn't a spectator, but he was just one of the five out there. You need more than that out of your leader.


I just wonder who you expected us to beat from 2001-2005 when we were eliminated? The spurs in 2001? the kings in 2002? the spurs in 2003? the suns in 2005?

kings in 04, suns in 05, heat in 06, warriors in 07 were ALL winnable.

[bdictjames]

But no matter how you look at it, its still unfair to Dirk for getting blamed for the whole team's fault. I dont know how this guy would make the critics happy that is not related to getting an NBA ring

[monosylab1k]

I dont know how this guy would make the critics happy that is not related to getting an NBA ring

He had his golden opportunity to get that ring and make sure he never heard another critic again, and he choked and let it slip through his fingers. I love Dirk but he deserves the criticism heaped on him. Who knows if he'll ever get another shot at redemption, but if he does he'd better make sure not to screw it up again or he might get labeled the biggest choker in NBA history.

[Shank]

Bunch of flip-flopping asshole "fans" up in here.

[Findog]

The point is, being up 3-0, should that have ever gone to 7?


We won, he came through when it mattered. Nash and Finley were on that team too and I don't think Spurs or Suns fans would denigrate their "toughness." I just don't agree with laying all of a team's failures at Dirk's feet.



He was never triple-teamed. I don't think you remember much of that series. I recall a certain lanky white guy who I don't think is even in the league anymore receiving the nickname "Germanator" because despite his lack of any discernible basketball talent, Dirk played like shit when he guarded him. Oh yeah, Ryan Bowen.

I watched that series and I don't remember Bowen guarding him one on one the entire time. I remember JVG sometimes sending a double team, sometimes not, basically playing him the way Nellie played him in the GS series.



I'd argue that Phoenix was not better that year, that they may have had some matchup advantages but so did we, and overall the series was a push...but with a stronger performance out of Dirk and less finger pointing at Dampier, Dallas could have won that series.


I think the Suns were better and we had no answer for Nash and Amare on the pic n roll.



So how does that explain 6'-8" Stephen Jackson and 6'-8" Udonis Haslem?

Do you think that Terry, Griffin and Harris were allowed to aggressively body up Wade and defend him the same way Haslem and Posey were allowed to defend Dirk? A guy of Dirk's size is going to absorb more contact and not get the call from the refs because he's bigger and stronger. Shaq has been fouled more than any guy in the history of the League without getting the call. I don't recall Stephen Jackson guarding Dirk one on one.



I'm sorry but saying "Dirk is not a post player" is akin to just saying "Dirk is one dimensional". And I don't think that The Man of any team needs to be described as one dimensional.

I don't think Dirk is one dimensional, he can take guys off the dribble and drive to the basket and he can go outside and shoot over them. What he can't do is post guys up like Zach Randolph. This wasn't anything new before the GS series, the brain trust didn't think we needed a btb scorer to complement him. He always scores facing the basket.


He's supposed to hit them when it matters the most, like for instance, the closing minutes of an NBA Finals game.

You could say the same about Wade then. Our team didn't capitalize on the exact same scenario. Nash is a 93% FT shooter and he missed two in a row after the Horry foul. It happens. You're expecting perfection.


Duncan is in no way a good FT shooter but have you EVER seen him miss when his team absolutely needs those points?

Yes. Ask any Spurs fan about his FT shooting. He's hit big ft's and he's missed big ft's.




Dirk misses clutch FT's, Wade takes advantage of it. Wade misses clutch FT's, and Dirk...


Dirk missed a ft that would've tied the game. Wade missed two FT's and JET missed a three. It's a team game.


kings in 04, suns in 05, heat in 06, warriors in 07 were ALL winnable.

And Jazz in 01, Blazers 03, Kings 03, Rockets 05, Spurs 06, Suns 06 were all losable. I don't mind calling him out for turning in a subpar performance, I'm just not into making sweeping judgments and letting his teammates off the hook and putting it all at his feet.

[Findog]

But no matter how you look at it, its still unfair to Dirk for getting blamed for the whole team's fault. I dont know how this guy would make the critics happy that is not related to getting an NBA ring

THANK YOU. The answer is for whatever reason he can't. Wade stepped his game up and we had nobody to guard him. Davis stepped his game up and we had nobody to guard him either. I've seen umpteen fucking mentions of Dirk being a choker, but nobody ever seems to point out what piss-poor perimeter defense we had when it mattered. A slightly better performance from Dirk, or slightly better perimeter defense, and we win those series. Dirk has brought legitimate criticism upon himself, what he doesn't deserve is piling on. Let's make room under the bus for Avery getting worked over by Riley and Nellie and for our perimeter guards unable to keep Wade and B-Diddy in front of them.

[Sec24Row7]

Josh Howard was the best player on the floor for the Mavs that entire series...

[StylisticS]

Josh Howard was the best player on the floor for the Mavs that entire series...

You're right. In the first half. But in the 2nd, he disappeared. That's my big and probably only problem with Josh. He is aggressive and relentless in the 1st half. But when the 2nd half begins, he loses that fire. He did that all of last season. I hope he is aware of that and works on it next season because we needed his fire in the 2nd half in every game of that series. Fortunately, that's the easiest thing he can improve on.

[monosylab1k]

Do you think that Terry, Griffin and Harris were allowed to aggressively body up Wade and defend him the same way Haslem and Posey were allowed to defend Dirk?

Yeah but he's supposed to be able to just shoot over them. He's a 7 footer trapped in a SG body. And Dirk gets plenty of calls when he's aggressive no matter who is on him.


And Jazz in 01, Blazers 03, Kings 03, Rockets 05, Spurs 06, Suns 06 were all losable.

Blazers 03 should have never gone to 6 games, much less 7.

Kings 03 without Webber should never have gone 7.

Rockets 05 should have gone 5 but that tricky Germanator....

Suns 06 was never losable. That team was so worn out by the time they faced us they were practically begging us to kill them. It's embarrassing that the series went 6 games.


I don't mind calling him out for turning in a subpar performance, I'm just not into making sweeping judgments and letting his teammates off the hook and putting it all at his feet.

When you're The Man, that's what happens. Live with it, man up, and fuckin' do something about it. Don't let a fucking 8-seed group of buckwild chuckers kick your ass while you decide to show up for about 6 total minutes the entire series, and then have people make excuses about your shitty overpaid center not being available, how they "aren't really an 8-seed", or have them bitch about a couple other guys not being able to handle the load that you're supposed to be shouldering to begin with.

[monosylab1k]

Bunch of flip-flopping asshole "fans" up in here.

Sorry that my Maverick pom-poms aren't going wild 24/7. If they deserve criticism, they're gonna get it.

[Findog]

Blazers 03 should have never gone to 6 games, much less 7.

Kings 03 without Webber should never have gone 7.

Rockets 05 should have gone 5 but that tricky Germanator....

Suns 06 was never losable. That team was so worn out by the time they faced us they were practically begging us to kill them. It's embarrassing that the series went 6 games.



LOL. We won those series against very good teams. I'm beginning to think that nothing but a 16-0 romp through the playoffs with Dirk putting up 40, 20 and 10 is going to satisfy you.

[monosylab1k]

LOL. We won those series against very good teams. I'm beginning to think that nothing but a 16-0 romp through the playoffs with Dirk putting up 40, 20 and 10 is going to satisfy you.

Going 7 games with San Antonio is one thing.

Going 7 against T-Mac, an unrefined Yao, and Bobby Fucking Sura is something else completely.

And losing in 6 to Miami and Golden State are even more pathetic.

I'd rather not hear about how a bunch of shitty first round victories somehow vindicates Dirk's playoff history.

[Findog]

Going 7 against T-Mac, an unrefined Yao, and Bobby Fucking Sura is something else completely

And losing in 6 to Miami and Golden State are even more pathetic.


That Houston team was damn good. Dwyane Wade and a motivated Shaq are damn good. They probably would've won the title a year before if they hadnt been derailed by injuries in the ECF. (ducks angry Spurs fans)

But I'm detecting a theme here...Wade went for 35 ppg on 16 FTAs and 47% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Baron Davis went for 25 and 5 on 57% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Tracy McGrady went for 31, 7 and 7 on 46% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Dirk went for 22, 8 and 3 on 36% shooting in the Houston series. That IS on him. Subpar for him, but not terrible. Even when he's off his game, he still helps his team. You act like he's a complete non-factor. And he's drawing double teams. Where is the constant harping on our perimeter defense? Everybody wants to call out Dirk, nobody wants to call out our guards for being unable to keep McGrady, Nash, Wade and Davis in front of them. That's just as big a factor in my mind in playoff failure as anything Dirk has or hasn't done.


I'd rather not hear about how a bunch of shitty first round victories somehow vindicates Dirk's playoff history.

When have we been a legitimate title contender? When we were wet behind the ears and lost to the Spurs in 2001? When we played no team d and lost to the Kings in 2002, Spurs in 2003, Kings again in 2004? When we ran into a better Phoenix team in 2005? I'd personally prefer not to crucify the guy and lay team failures at his feet without taking into account his entire body of work, but we're entitled to differing opinions.

[Ignorant Spurs fan]

I agree with some of this.

Mavericks just need to play some fucking defense. go out there and pester your man and then hold your ground and get your hands up when they drive if your a help defender. they dont stop penetration, instead they slap at the ball and foul. the Houston team that almost beat them and the Golden State team were both much tougher mentally.

[monosylab1k]

When have we been a legitimate title contender? When we were wet behind the ears and lost to the Spurs in 2001? When we played no team d and lost to the Kings in 2002, Spurs in 2003, Kings again in 2004? When we ran into a better Phoenix team in 2005? I'd personally prefer not to crucify the guy and lay team failures at his feet without taking into account his entire body of work, but we're entitled to differing opinions.

Don't talk about this team like they're the fucking Cavaliers. This team has had an elite level of talent surrounding Dirk for years now. If you're telling me that they couldn't compete or beat the 05 Suns then you're crazy. And a Top-5 team in the league SHOULD NOT have trouble beating T-Mac, an inexperienced Yao, and 10 dickheads who didn't belong in the NBA.

And my mistake, I supposed 7 years ISN'T enough time to expect a superstar with a strong supporting cast, one of the top coaches, and an owner who will provide him with anything he needs to succeed, to have consistent success in the playoffs. I'll never make the mistake of expecting anything out of this team again.

Eventually it's time to put the big boy pants on. Dirk tried them on last year and for whatever reason took them off.

[Findog]

Don't talk about this team like they're the fucking Cavaliers. This team has had an elite level of talent surrounding Dirk for years now.

Nellie and the Big Three were never going to beat the Spurs or Shaq/Kobe. It's like asking the Cavs to beat the Spurs. I'm not going to hold it against them that they couldn't.


If you're telling me that they couldn't compete or beat the 05 Suns then you're crazy.

05 Suns were slightly better than the 05 Mavs. I didn't say they had no chance to beat the Suns, but it's not a surprise Phoenix won that series. Give the Suns some credit, they were really fucking good that year.


And a Top-5 team in the league SHOULD NOT have trouble beating T-Mac, an inexperienced Yao, and 10 dickheads who didn't belong in the NBA.

It's going to be hard to beat a team when T-Mac is going off for 31, 7 and 7. T-Mac, Yao and "10 dickheads" aren't going to go 52-30 and grab a 5 seed in the West.


And my mistake, I supposed 7 years ISN'T enough time to expect a superstar with a strong supporting cast, one of the top coaches, and an owner who will provide him with anything he needs to succeed, to have consistent success in the playoffs.

I would say only in the last two years has there been a reasonable expectation on the part of Mavs fans to compete for a title. Jet is 30, Dirk is 29, Josh is 26, Devin is 25, Diop is 23. Avery is a young head coach. The window is far from closed and the final chapter on Dirk's Mavs hasn't been written.



I'll never make the mistake of expecting anything out of this team again.

A lot of people foolishly wrote the Spurs off as being "too old" after last year and claimed a "torch had been passed." I think it would be equally foolish to write off Dallas as being "psychologically scarred" or unable to ever do anything in the playoffs again. I don't think Popovich or D'Antoni shares your assessment.


Eventually it's time to put the big boy pants on. Dirk tried them on last year and for whatever reason took them off

His teammates haven't done their part either. You completely glossed over my argument about our perimeter d against the premier guards in the League. Are you satisfied and happy with the way we defended Tmac, Nash, Wade and Davis? And if not, do you blame Dirk for that? Basketball is not a one-man game.

[monosylab1k]

Nellie and the Big Three were never going to beat the Spurs or Shaq/Kobe. It's like asking the Cavs to beat the Spurs. I'm not going to hold it against them that they couldn't.

Nellie and the Big Three took the Spurs to 6 without Dirk and should have gone to 7 if not for a miraculous barrage of 3's by Kerr and Jackson. That team wasn't as good as the Spurs but they had a decent shot at beating them.

Maybe if they don't blow a 3-0 lead to Portland and didn't take 7 games to beat a Webber-less Kings team they would have had an even better chance to take down the Spurs that year.


It's going to be hard to beat a team when T-Mac is going off for 31, 7 and 7.

It's even harder when a guy named Ryan Bowen is shutting down your own "matchup nightmare".


His teammates haven't done their part either. You completely glossed over my argument about our perimeter d against the premier guards in the League. Are you satisfied and happy with the way we defended Tmac, Nash, Wade and Davis? And if not, do you blame Dirk for that? Basketball is not a one-man game.

Okay great, Terry can't play defense. Nice observation. Doesn't change a fucking thing.

When is the last time Duncan or Garnett or Jordan or Kobe or any other superstar played like SHIT and everybody glossed over it and said "Well despite that fact that he only shot 4 for 16 and allowed a far inferior player make him their bitch, the big problem is that his teammates didn't help him out". Those guys are going to catch hell for their failure because they are THE MAN on their team. Sure, a Ginobili or Pippen or whoever might get criticized for playing like shit as well, but if THE MAN also plays like shit, he's the one to shoulder the blame.

Why did Ginobili catch so much hell for the foul on Dirk? Because Duncan was a fucking warrior out there, that's why. If Duncan scores 8 points in that game 7, nobody gives a fuck what Ginobili did out there.

What happened in the Finals this year with LeBron? Sure, everyone admits that his supporting cast is terrible, but everyone is in agreement that LeBron could have also played much, much better.

This criticism isn't something new. EVERY star faces it, and every star handles it. But for whatever reason, whenever Mav fans hear it about their beloved Dirky, their panties get all wadded up and they find a way to make Jason Terry and Josh Howard look like Larry and Curly because God forbid we point a finger at our superstar.

[td4mvp3]

The point is, being up 3-0, should that have ever gone to 7?



He was never triple-teamed. I don't think you remember much of that series. I recall a certain lanky white guy who I don't think is even in the league anymore receiving the nickname "Germanator" because despite his lack of any discernible basketball talent, Dirk played like shit when he guarded him. Oh yeah, Ryan Bowen.



I'd argue that Phoenix was not better that year, that they may have had some matchup advantages but so did we, and overall the series was a push...but with a stronger performance out of Dirk and less finger pointing at Dampier, Dallas could have won that series.



So how does that explain 6'-8" Stephen Jackson and 6'-8" Udonis Haslem?



No, but having that shot available to him makes him that much more dangerous. Dirk has no semi-reliable post game to speak of that adds to his versatility.

I'm sorry but saying "Dirk is not a post player" is akin to just saying "Dirk is one dimensional". And I don't think that The Man of any team needs to be described as one dimensional.



He's supposed to hit them when it matters the most, like for instance, the closing minutes of an NBA Finals game.

Duncan is in no way a good FT shooter but have you EVER seen him miss when his team absolutely needs those points?



Dirk misses clutch FT's, Wade takes advantage of it. Wade misses clutch FT's, and Dirk...



He wasn't a spectator, but he was just one of the five out there. You need more than that out of your leader.



kings in 04, suns in 05, heat in 06, warriors in 07 were ALL winnable.
i like your arguments, but the duncan thing isn't true. game five against the pistons became horry's night because duncan kept clanking fts. game 1 against phoenix in 03 was lost because duncan couldn't hit a freethrow. freethrows and duncan just don't get along, but he is not the same shooter that dirk is so the german has little excuse.

[monosylab1k]

i like your arguments, but the duncan thing isn't true. game five against the pistons became horry's night because duncan kept clanking fts. game 1 against phoenix in 03 was lost because duncan couldn't hit a freethrow. freethrows and duncan just don't get along, but he is not the same shooter that dirk is so the german has little excuse.

yeah that's true, but I guess what I was trying to say was this - if the Spurs are down by 1 with three seconds to go, and Duncan is at the line to shoot 2 FT's in game 7 of the Finals, is there any doubt that he makes them both?

Now think of the same scenario, but with Dirk at the line...are you as confident in his ability to do it? And he's about 30% better at the line than Duncan.

[Findog]

Nellie and the Big Three took the Spurs to 6 without Dirk and should have gone to 7 if not for a miraculous barrage of 3's by Kerr and Jackson. That team wasn't as good as the Spurs but they had a decent shot at beating them.

And the result was as it should be: the better team beat the lesser team.


Maybe if they don't blow a 3-0 lead to Portland and didn't take 7 games to beat a Webber-less Kings team they would have had an even better chance to take down the Spurs that year.

No, I don't think so. Nellie's teams were never in the Spurs or Shaq/Kobe's class.




It's even harder when a guy named Ryan Bowen is shutting down your own "matchup nightmare".

22, 8 and 3 isn't being "shut down." He didn't guard him one-on-one the whole series.



Okay great, Terry can't play defense. Nice observation. Doesn't change a fucking thing.

Doesn't make it Dirk's fault either. And it was as big, if not a bigger factor in those series losses than Dirk. Not Terry by himself, but Devin, Adrian Griffin, all of our perimeter defenders who couldn't keep those guys from killing us.


When is the last time Duncan or Garnett or Jordan or Kobe or any other superstar played like SHIT and everybody glossed over it and said "Well despite that fact that he only shot 4 for 16 and allowed a far inferior player make him their bitch, the big problem is that his teammates didn't help him out". Those guys are going to catch hell for their failure because they are THE MAN on their team. Sure, a Ginobili or Pippen or whoever might get criticized for playing like shit as well, but if THE MAN also plays like shit, he's the one to shoulder the blame.

Dirk should get his proportion of the blame, the common thread from you and other fans is that it's ALL on him, and I don't agree with that.


Why did Ginobili catch so much hell for the foul on Dirk?

Because it was a dumb fucking play.


Because Duncan was a fucking warrior out there, that's why.

No, because it was a dumb fucking play.


If Duncan scores 8 points in that game 7, nobody gives a fuck what Ginobili did out there.

That sequence had nothing to do with Duncan.




This criticism isn't something new. EVERY star faces it, and every star handles it. But for whatever reason, whenever Mav fans hear it about their beloved Dirky, their panties get all wadded up and they find a way to make Jason Terry and Josh Howard look like Larry and Curly because God forbid we point a finger at our superstar

You won't find me arguing that Dirk played great against the Warriors. What you won't find me doing is putting EVERYTHING on him, because he doesn't deserve it.

[td4mvp3]

That Houston team was damn good. Dwyane Wade and a motivated Shaq are damn good. They probably would've won the title a year before if they hadnt been derailed by injuries in the ECF. (ducks angry Spurs fans)

But I'm detecting a theme here...Wade went for 35 ppg on 16 FTAs and 47% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Baron Davis went for 25 and 5 on 57% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Tracy McGrady went for 31, 7 and 7 on 46% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Dirk went for 22, 8 and 3 on 36% shooting in the Houston series. That IS on him. Subpar for him, but not terrible. Even when he's off his game, he still helps his team. You act like he's a complete non-factor. And he's drawing double teams. Where is the constant harping on our perimeter defense? Everybody wants to call out Dirk, nobody wants to call out our guards for being unable to keep McGrady, Nash, Wade and Davis in front of them. That's just as big a factor in my mind in playoff failure as anything Dirk has or hasn't done.



When have we been a legitimate title contender? When we were wet behind the ears and lost to the Spurs in 2001? When we played no team d and lost to the Kings in 2002, Spurs in 2003, Kings again in 2004? When we ran into a better Phoenix team in 2005? I'd personally prefer not to crucify the guy and lay team failures at his feet without taking into account his entire body of work, but we're entitled to differing opinions.
in a way, i think you're making the other guy's argument for him. if we give you that davis and wade became unstoppable because of their driving ability and, as you've said, dirk scores be shooting over folks or driving, then the question becomes what kept him from elevating his game a la wade and davis? his shots weren't falling and we know calls are coming once you drive in for a basket. dirk didn't do that and there were scant few who could have stopped him. gs had no shot blocker; miami had oneal, who could have been put into foul trouble.

[monosylab1k]

And the result was as it should be: the better team beat the lesser team.

No, I don't think so. Nellie's teams were never in the Spurs or Shaq/Kobe's class.

22, 8 and 3 isn't being "shut down." He didn't guard him one-on-one the whole series.

Doesn't make it Dirk's fault either. And it was as big, if not a bigger factor in those series losses than Dirk. Not Terry by himself, but Devin, Adrian Griffin, all of our perimeter defenders who couldn't keep those guys from killing us.

Dirk should get his proportion of the blame, the common thread from you and other fans is that it's ALL on him, and I don't agree with that.

Because it was a dumb fucking play.

No, because it was a dumb fucking play.

That sequence had nothing to do with Duncan.

You won't find me arguing that Dirk played great against the Warriors. What you won't find me doing is putting EVERYTHING on him, because he doesn't deserve it.

Well I'll keep this in mind as I go tell Knicks fans "hey, it wasn't Ewing's fault he failed so often in the playoffs....if fucking John Starks and Anthony Mason would have stepped up their game then Ewing wouldn't have had to...blame it all on them."

[td4mvp3]

yeah that's true, but I guess what I was trying to say was this - if the Spurs are down by 1 with three seconds to go, and Duncan is at the line to shoot 2 FT's in game 7 of the Finals, is there any doubt that he makes them both?

Now think of the same scenario, but with Dirk at the line...are you as confident in his ability to do it? And he's about 30% better at the line than Duncan.
i'd honestly put dirk on the line before duncan. game 5 in 05 was that exact scenario; heck, in the wcf of that year, duncan went 15-15 in one game and like 3-12 in the next.

[monosylab1k]

i'd honestly put dirk on the line before duncan. game 5 in 05 was that exact scenario; heck, in the wcf of that year, duncan went 15-15 in one game and like 3-12 in the next.

wow....i guess i've seen far too many missed FT's late in games to have that type of confidence in dirk....it happens more often than just the few national games that he's done it in. then again, i don't see 82 games of tim duncan shoting from the line.

[Findog]

in a way, i think you're making the other guy's argument for him. if we give you that davis and wade became unstoppable because of their driving ability and, as you've said, dirk scores be shooting over folks or driving, then the question becomes what kept him from elevating his game a la wade and davis? his shots weren't falling and we know calls are coming once you drive in for a basket. dirk didn't do that and there were scant few who could have stopped him. gs had no shot blocker; miami had oneal, who could have been put into foul trouble.

O'Neal didn't get as heavy minutes after G2 because Riley realized that Zo gave him a better chance to win. Sometimes I think you have to give credit to the defenders. The Warriors were active in the passing lanes and they ran double and triple teams at him the entire series. When you're getting double-teamed like that, the correct play is to give up the ball and let a wide-open teammate make a shot. Avery for whatever reason in the Miami series doubled Shaq when he was on the floor and refused to trap Wade and take the ball out of his hands. I'm not into blaming the refs, I'll just note that you and I both watched that series: Were the Mavs' perimeter defenders allowed to aggressively body up Wade and crowd him the way Haslem and Posey were allowed to do to Dirk?

My argument is not to absolve Dirk for failing to play well, my argument is that the entire TEAM did not play well against Mia/GS, and I don't care about trite "The Man" analysis. If your best player is getting double-teamed and has to give the ball up, hit an open shot (JET.) If the opposing team's star guard can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, that's not on Dirk. And the funny thing is he wants to swap out KG for Dirk, straight up.

[Findog]

i'd honestly put dirk on the line before duncan. game 5 in 05 was that exact scenario; heck, in the wcf of that year, duncan went 15-15 in one game and like 3-12 in the next.

You can't expect a guy to hit 100% of his FTS. Wade missed two huge ones in a row at the end of G6 in the Finals, I have no qualms about ever sending him back to the line in clutch situations. Sometimes a missed FT is a missed FT, has nothing to do with a guy's heart or courage. It just happened at the worst possible time.

[Findog]

Well I'll keep this in mind as I go tell Knicks fans "hey, it wasn't Ewing's fault he failed so often in the playoffs....if fucking John Starks and Anthony Mason would have stepped up their game then Ewing wouldn't have had to...blame it all on them."


Jordan's Bulls > Ewing's Knicks. And the Knicks would've had a title if Starks hadn't shot 1-18 against the Rockets. Is that Ewing's fault?

[monosylab1k]

When you're getting double-teamed like that, the correct play is to give up the ball and let a wide-open teammate make a shot.

I gotta wonder what player you've been watching. One of Dirk's biggest flaws is his inability to effectively pass out of a double team. This has NOT IN ANY WAY been a case of Dirk making the right play and Terry fucking things up. The majority of the time he DIDN'T EVEN GET THE BALL because he was allowing himself to be pushed around by Jackson/Haslem/Bowen, and even if he did get the ball he allowed the defender to dictate where he went with it, he would just pass it back out before anyone could make a move, which is why Terry or Stack or someone else would eventually just jack up a shot.

[td4mvp3]

O'Neal didn't get as heavy minutes after G2 because Riley realized that Zo gave him a better chance to win. Sometimes I think you have to give credit to the defenders. The Warriors were active in the passing lanes and they ran double and triple teams at him the entire series. When you're getting double-teamed like that, the correct play is to give up the ball and let a wide-open teammate make a shot. Avery for whatever reason in the Miami series doubled Shaq when he was on the floor and refused to trap Wade and take the ball out of his hands. I'm not into blaming the refs, I'll just note that you and I both watched that series: Were the Mavs' perimeter defenders allowed to aggressively body up Wade and crowd him the way Haslem and Posey were allowed to do to Dirk?

My argument is not to absolve Dirk for failing to play well, my argument is that the entire TEAM did not play well against Mia/GS, and I don't care about trite "The Man" analysis. If your best player is getting double-teamed and has to give the ball up, hit an open shot (JET.) If the opposing team's star guard can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, that's not on Dirk. And the funny thing is he wants to swap out KG for Dirk, straight up.
i think the dirk-kg thing wouldn't help anyone. and granted, a team game demands the rest of the players perform their role. the miami series is fuzzier for me, i was just rooting for the heat so wasn't paying any attention to the defenses. but i do remember vividly that game 6 against golden state, there was no need for aggresive double teams on dirk because he was firing away from 3, much like he had in game 5. everyone saw what could happen by driving in the spurs-mavs in 06 but it wasn't repeated in 07. and it's not like the scoring was dismal, if i recall, a lot of those games hit the 100s. shots were obviously falling so one could argue the rest of the players were giving you as much as could be expected. look at the spurs-cavs game 3: the big three suck but the role players provide as much as they can. both teams were playing the slow-down game. with the mavs, though, both teams were playing the uptempo game and the role players were doing as much as could be expected. the one unstoppable mismatch, though, was dirk and he let himself become very stoppable.

[monosylab1k]

Jordan's Bulls > Ewing's Knicks. And the Knicks would've had a title if Starks hadn't shot 1-18 against the Rockets. Is that Ewing's fault?

That explains the Pacers beating them all those times. And his 1 point playoff game. And missing a game-winning finger roll. And not just telling John Starks "stop shooting, give me the fucking ball and let me win this thing".

What's funny is that all you do is replace Ewing with Dirk and Starks with Terry and it all sounds exactly the same.

[Findog]

the one unstoppable mismatch, though, was dirk and he let himself become very stoppable.

Yeah, he was pretty subpar by his standards, and it was mystifying to me to watch him settle for too many jumpers, but the crux of mono's argument, or at least the tone of it, seems to be that Dirk is a worthless playoff performer based on the past seven years and I don't think that's true. It's not fair to ask a green Dirk to carry the Mavs past superior Spurs and Kings teams 3-5 years ago. I'm really only willing to hold his feet to the fire over GS. I'd agree Dirk isn't as consistent as he needs to be, he came up way too short against GS, more so than Miami, but for every 8 points on 2-13 shooting or whatever it was against the Warriors, there's a 37-15 against the Spurs. There's 55 points in a pivotal G5 against the Suns. I think the worst you can say about Dirk is that he's had some disappointing playoff performances, but that's true of damn near almost anybody. Does Wade get a pass for allowing his team to get swept out of the playoffs bc he's got a ring? Evidently he does.


I just don't deal in absolutes: "Dirk is great, get off his back," or "Dirk fucking sucks balls and we should trade him." Trading Dirk is not the answer IMO.

[Findog]

That explains the Pacers beating them all those times. And his 1 point playoff game. And missing a game-winning finger roll. And not just telling John Starks "stop shooting, give me the fucking ball and let me win this thing".


By the same token, Duncan > Dirk, so if the Mavs are going to be better than the Spurs, either Dirk is going to have to outplay Duncan (fat chance), or the Dallas supporting cast has to be better than the San Antonio supporting cast.

[monosylab1k]

for every 8 points on 2-13 shooting or whatever it was against the Warriors, there's a 37-15 against the Spurs.

it's great to know that Dirk's good playoff game-to-bad playoff game ratio is 1:1....that's stellar.

[Findog]

it's great to know that Dirk's good playoff game-to-bad playoff game ratio is 1:1....that's stellar.

I don't feel like going through 80 games worth of box scores, but I'm willing to bet good $ it's better than that. I'll even waive my winning fee if you take the time to do it yourself.

[RonMexico]

I don't feel like going through 80 games worth of box scores, but I'm willing to bet good $ it's better than that. I'll even waive my winning fee if you take the time to do it yourself.

In the same vein, can the general public submit requests to the Elias Sports Bureau with questions such as the good-to-bad game ratio one above?

Then could they also compare Dirk's output to that of other playoff flops like Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber, etc?

I really want to know about this, because then they could also analyze the intercourse-to-herpes contraction ratio of all my bitches...

[td4mvp3]

Yeah, he was pretty subpar by his standards, and it was mystifying to me to watch him settle for too many jumpers, but the crux of mono's argument, or at least the tone of it, seems to be that Dirk is a worthless playoff performer based on the past seven years and I don't think that's true. It's not fair to ask a green Dirk to carry the Mavs past superior Spurs and Kings teams 3-5 years ago. I'm really only willing to hold his feet to the fire over GS. I'd agree Dirk isn't as consistent as he needs to be, he came up way too short against GS, more so than Miami, but for every 8 points on 2-13 shooting or whatever it was against the Warriors, there's a 37-15 against the Spurs. There's 55 points in a pivotal G5 against the Suns. I think the worst you can say about Dirk is that he's had some disappointing playoff performances, but that's true of damn near almost anybody. Does Wade get a pass for allowing his team to get swept out of the playoffs bc he's got a ring? Evidently he does.

I just don't deal in absolutes: "Dirk is great, get off his back," or "Dirk fucking sucks balls and we should trade him." Trading Dirk is not the answer IMO.
i think the argument would sway on whether or not the mavs were picked to win those series. if dirk is consistently being beat by teams his team is supposed to beat (or barely eeking out a victory) then he is somewhat subpar. a webberless kings team wasn't playing anymore defense than the mavs were, that shouldn't have gone 7. if a green dirk gets some slack, then a green yao should also be taken into consideration, and again, not go 7. but more than anything, a mature dirk, with a squad that has killed the league for 67 games, should not lose to the warriors with its superstar clanking 3s. i guess dirk is comparable to malone at this point, if someone considers malone a playoff bust then i don't see why dirk can't be seen as such.

[monosylab1k]

I don't feel like going through 80 games worth of box scores, but I'm willing to bet good $ it's better than that. I'll even waive my winning fee if you take the time to do it yourself.

I was just going by what you said.