Memo to NAACP: Draft Bill Cosby

[Hook Dem]

Memo to NAACP: Draft Bill Cosby
By _Michael Reagan_
(http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.asp?ID=1440)
_FrontPageMagazine.com_ () | December 3, 2004


Kweisi Mfume is leaving his job as president of the National Association
For the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and his resignation should be
a source of rejoicing for not only the membership of that civil rights
organization, but for all Americans black and white.

For all of the nine years he has served as the NAACP¹s head, Mfume has been
one of the nation¹s most divisive voices. Under his leadership the NAACP
Has become nothing less than a rabid race-baiting group. During his
presidency I have heard little else from Mfume other than his incessant
repetition of the canard that every problem plaguing the world, and the
black community in particular, can be blamed on white America.

Along with Jesse Jackson, Mfume has refused to face the real problem from
which their African-American brothers and sisters are suffering, and it
isn¹t solved by blaming everything on slavery. The issue is fatherless
homes. And their failure to speak out about children being born out of
wedlock should not be surprising; neither one of them has the credibility
to discuss it, both being guilty of fathering children out of wedlock.

So rather than talk about that burning issue, they rant and rave about the
white man¹s guilt for slavery, an issue settled over a century and a half
ago, when hundreds of thousands of white men died to put an end to it.

If the NAACP has any hope of really advancing the prospects and the welfare
of the black community, it has to stop blaming white America and start
Facing the problem of kids growing up without the love and guidance of a
father in their homes. And they need to have a leader who has both the
credibility and the courage to tackle that issue head-on, one who won¹t
blame whitey. One who will tell black America to look in the mirror and ask
what they can do to help their own people. One who will be honest about the
issue of fatherless homes much in the way as Bill Cosby has been honest
with his fellow African-Americans.

Cosby chastises the African-American community for its rates of juvenile
delinquency, its parenting, the coarse language of its youth. You can do
better, he tells his fellow blacks. Don't let yourself be victims, and
especially don't let the poorest in the community let themselves be
victims.

"This is about little children ... and people not giving them better
choices," he told Paula Zahn in an interview for CNN's Paula Zahn Now.
"Talking. Talking. Parenting. Correctly parenting. That's what it's about.
And you can't blame other things. You got to -- you got to straighten up
your house. Straighten up your apartment. Straighten up your child."

Getting this across is not an easy job, as the courageous Cosby has
learned. None of us wants to face reality, to look at ourselves as we really
are. It¹ s easier to play victim, and the Mfumes and the Jacksons have been
all too ready to help convince black America of their victimhood. And it
keeps the money rolling in.

The victim¹s mantra goes like this: ³It¹s comforting for us to avoid taking
responsibility for our self-created problems by proclaiming that that we
are the way we are because of you. We are way we are because of what
happened in the 19th century. It¹s not because we lived in a fatherless
home and there was no strong hand to help raise us. We are what we are
because somebody to whom we might be related to was once enslaved.²

And what Mfume¹s NAACP has done is to foster that lie. It¹s time to do a
makeover and replace the "blame whitey" chorus of the Mfumes and Jacksons
and Al Sharptons with the Bill Cosbys and get people who understand what
Bill Cosby is saying and act on it.

If the NAACP really wants to empower the advancement of African Americans
they¹ll find leaders who have the best interests of their fellow blacks and
are willing to raise their voices to help the black community face and
solve their own problems.

I have a couple of candidates. How about replacing Mfume with Bill Cosby,
or Jesse Lee Peterson from BOND, or even Colin Powell who¹s about to be at
large. They have the credibility and the guts to face the problem head-on.

[Duff McCartney]

"If you guys are serious about getting out of this ghetto you gotta focus, you gotta stop blaming white people for your problems, and you've gotta learn......how to rap or play basketball or something, you are trapped, either do that or sell crack that's the only options."

[MannyIsGod]

What Bill Cosby said has extreme merit, if taken IN CONTEXT. The problem is that the right saw it as a huge opportunity to say "Look Look, there's no problem but what you make for yourselves". And that quite frankly, is a crock of shit.

The current economic situation we have is a direct result of the inequality that minorities have suffered begining with slavery and going through the civil rights acts.

To break it down for you, White People have had a godamn headstart in a race, and just because a lot of the barriers are down for minorities, that doesn't mean we've caught up.

I'm not down with reperations and I do believe that reforms must start from within these communities. But go take a look at a school on the eastside or in the edgewood district then go take a look at Churchill or Clark.

You tell me, are we equal?

[Useruser666]

Yep, there is no such thing a as a poor white person.

[exstatic]

I think there are one or two somewhere, User. Now, please follow Manny's instructions, and check those schools.

[Useruser666]

I think there are one or two somewhere, User. Now, please follow Manny's instructions, and check those schools.

I guess I had better. Me being white and having the great advantage of graduating from Roosevelt, I have no idea how lucky I had it. How come my silver spoon tastes like lead?

[Jekka]

.

[MannyIsGod]

Yep, there is no such thing a as a poor white person.

When did I say there were no white people?

The fact that there are poor white people somehow invalidates the arguement that hundreds of years of inequality has not be equalized?

The fact is that I think racism is at an all time low, and what we have now is classism, based on how much money you have. The thing is, because of the opression minoritiys have endured in this country, they aren't on the same level as most anglos. If you were a poor white person, then you are in the same boat,but the fact remains that the ruling majority of this country are dispraportionatly white men.

Do you dispute that?

Oh and btw, compair those Edgewood schools with Roosevelt and you'll see a HUGE difference.

[Hook Dem]

What Bill Cosby said has extreme merit, if taken IN CONTEXT. The problem is that the right saw it as a huge opportunity to say "Look Look, there's no problem but what you make for yourselves". And that quite frankly, is a crock of shit.

The current economic situation we have is a direct result of the inequality that minorities have suffered begining with slavery and going through the civil rights acts.

To break it down for you, White People have had a godamn headstart in a race, and just because a lot of the barriers are down for minorities, that doesn't mean we've caught up.

I'm not down with reperations and I do believe that reforms must start from within these communities. But go take a look at a school on the eastside or in the edgewood district then go take a look at Churchill or Clark.

You tell me, are we equal?
There is no shame in being poor.Hard working people that are "poor" can not help it in most cases. This does not, however, release those parents from practicing good parenting. I know of many in that situation who have risen to better things through hard work. It is called applying ones self. The opportunity is there for those who want to venture out of the "neighborhood". It is not easy by any means but family values is a must. I know of a lot more "poor" families that have better family values than those who went to Churchill. Sure, most white people have a "headstart", as you put it but if you use that as an excuse, then you're just letting yourself down. If you live a life of resentment, you will probably never succeed. Example: Jim has way more than I have. Should I have a chip on my shoulder for Jim? No. I could have chosen to follow the path he did but I did not. Why? It was easier not to. I call bullshit on your thinking.

[MannyIsGod]

There is no shame in being poor.Hard working people that are "poor" can not help it in most cases. This does not, however, release those parents from practicing good parenting. I know of many in that situation who have risen to better things through hard work. It is called applying ones self. The opportunity is there for those who want to venture out of the "neighborhood". It is not easy by any means but family values is a must. I know of a lot more "poor" families that have better family values than those who went to Churchill. Sure, most white people have a "headstart", as you put it but if you use that as an excuse, then you're just letting yourself down. If you live a life of resentment, you will probably never succeed. Example: Jim has way more than I have. Should I have a chip on my shoulder for Jim? No. I could have chosen to follow the path he did but I did not. Why? It was easier not to. I call bullshit on your thinking.

Hook, poverty leads to problems. It's a fact. There is nothing wrong with being poor except that it leads to rises in crime, teenage pregnancy, and all around social problems.

So yes, other than that, it's no big deal.

You can "call bullshit" on my thinking, but then I'd like one person to explain why the high crime areas coincide with the POOR areas?

Why?

It doesn't take a godamn sociologist to break that shit down and discover why, but they HAVE.

Minorities have a godamn right to walk around with a chip on their solider. When I listen to my grandfather tell stories about how he wasn't allowed in places because he was brown, then yes, I have a chip.

I don't hate white people, most of my friends are white and my girlfriend is white. But overall, I hate the white man's history of keeping my people down. I hate America that TOOK my ancestors land in an unjust war. I hate the america that ended slavery yet took another 75 years before it decided that yes, blacks were equal.

Most of all, I hate the America that loves to tell my people that it's all their fault and that it's all up to them.

[Guru of Nothing]

But go take a look at a school on the eastside or in the edgewood district then go take a look at Churchill or Clark.

You tell me, are we equal?

When I think about all the dope I smoked back in my high school daze, I have to say, I went above and beyond the call of duty to level the playing field.

[MannyIsGod]

White's make up 8.2 of the percentage of people under the poverty line.

Race/Ethnicity
White, not Hispanic 15,902 8.2
Black alone or in combination* 9,108 24.3
Black alone 8,781 24.4
Hispanic origin+ 9,051 22.5
Asian alone or in combination* 1,527 11.8
Asian alone 1,401 11.8

And you think this has nothing to do with things Hook and User?

http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/irp/faqs/faq3dir/povtab03-one.htm

[Hook Dem]

Hook, poverty leads to problems. It's a fact. There is nothing wrong with being poor except that it leads to rises in crime, teenage pregnancy, and all around social problems.

So yes, other than that, it's no big deal.

You can "call bullshit" on my thinking, but then I'd like one person to explain why the high crime areas coincide with the POOR areas?

Why?

It doesn't take a godamn sociologist to break that shit down and discover why, but they HAVE.

Minorities have a godamn right to walk around with a chip on their solider. When I listen to my grandfather tell stories about how he wasn't allowed in places because he was brown, then yes, I have a chip.

I don't hate white people, most of my friends are white and my girlfriend is white. But overall, I hate the white man's history of keeping my people down. I hate America that TOOK my ancestors land in an unjust war. I hate the america that ended slavery yet took another 75 years before it decided that yes, blacks were equal.

Most of all, I hate the America that loves to tell my people that it's all their fault and that it's all up to them.
I don't think all Americans are telling your people that its your fault. I certainly am not. I'm just saying that it does not eleviate the responsibility of raising children with family values and pride. I understand that distant relatives were in slavery but not too many are still living. I don't think that gives decendants the right to carry the chip. If it were still going on, I could understand that. Some of my very best friends are mexicans and I hold them in high regard. That being said, I do not hear them telling me that they are handicapped because they are mexican. They have pride and it is a good thing. Some of them live on the west side and yes, I see the things you are talking about. The only way to escape that is to escape the "neighborhood". Either that or become an activist and try to better the neighborhood. There are a lot of good people who do just that. I praise them. It is a normal thing to want better things and living conditions. Want and Do are two different things. A good example of good is what you are doing with Elf Louise. I hold you in high esteem for doing that. God Bless you man!

[Guru of Nothing]

White's make up 8.2 of the percentage of people under the poverty line.

Race/Ethnicity
White, not Hispanic 15,902 8.2
Black alone or in combination* 9,108 24.3
Black alone 8,781 24.4
Hispanic origin+ 9,051 22.5
Asian alone or in combination* 1,527 11.8
Asian alone 1,401 11.8

And you think this has nothing to do with things Hook and User?

http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/irp/faqs/faq3dir/povtab03-one.htm

I think you have to look beyond the numbers Manny. I'm no sociology guru, nowhere close, but I think much of the unpleasantness in the numbers you post are endemic to the South. I can empathize with you to the extent that shit is broke and it ought to be fixed, but honestly, sometimes things are fucked-up beyond repair.

Seriously, money and good intentions will not fix everything.

[Nbadan]

I don't think all Americans are telling your people that its your fault. I certainly am not. I'm just saying that it does not eleviate the responsibility of raising children with family values and pride. I understand that distant relatives were in slavery but not too many are still living. I don't think that gives decendants the right to carry the chip. If it were still going on, I could understand that. Some of my very best friends are mexicans and I hold them in high regard. That being said, I do not hear them telling me that they are handicapped because they are mexican. They have pride and it is a good thing. Some of them live on the west side and yes, I see the things you are talking about. The only way to escape that is to escape the "neighborhood". Either that or become an activist and try to better the neighborhood. There are a lot of good people who do just that. I praise them. It is a normal thing to want better things and living conditions. Want and Do are two different things. A good example of good is what you are doing with Elf Louise. I hold you in high esteem for doing that. God Bless you man!

That's the first really truth-filled, well-thoughout statement I have ever read from Hookdem!

Shit, now I know anythings possible!

:hat

[Nbadan]

I think you have to look beyond the numbers Manny. I'm no sociology guru, nowhere close, but I think much of the unpleasantness in the numbers you post are endemic to the South. I can empathize with you to the extent that shit is broke and it ought to be fixed, but honestly, sometimes things are fucked-up beyond repair.

Seriously, money and good intentions will not fix everything.

So what? We just throw our hands up and tell our kids, sorry? Education first should be stressed in lower-class neighborhoods schools, and that includes participation in extra-curricular activities like Football, basketball and all other sports if need be. Get the school boards, the adminstrators, the activists, and the 'moms' out of the classroom and let the teachers do their job, but hold them accountable for their 'product' with a semi-annual standardized test that progressively gets tougher in do-able steps, and not just all at once. Teachers aren't miracle workers, although many are angels.

[travis2]

So what? We just throw our hands up and tell our kids, sorry? Education first should be stressed in lower-class neighborhoods schools, and that includes participation in extra-curricular activities like Football, basketball and all other sports if need be. Get the school boards, the adminstrators, the activists, and the 'moms' out of the classroom and let the teachers do their job, but hold them accountable for their 'product' with a semi-annual standardized test that progressively gets tougher in do-able steps, and not just all at once. Teachers aren't miracle workers, although many are angels.

Now that is the first logical, well-thought-out post I've seen from you.

Yes, all things are possible.

[Useruser666]

One of the years I spent at Roosevelt it was by percentage, the most racially diverse school in NEISD or maybe even SA. We had the largest Native American student body at the time. Maybe Roosevelt was a good school. Ask people from the supposed silver spoon schools you listed if they thought so at the time and see what answers they give you. Sure there were and are worse schools. Sure it is easier for people who are born to well off families to get ahead in life. But if you really put forth the effort, you are the only one who sets limits on yourself.

By the way, my mom was born in Germany. My dad comes from immigrants of mostly Italian origin, 4th generation US born. Since I'm white I'm automatically characterized as having slave owning, indian land stealing ancestors, which could not be farther from the truth.

[JoeChalupa]

Bill has a way of pudding things in a straight forward way in a different world than where we come from.

[Jekka]

One of the years I spent at Roosevelt it was by percentage, the most racially diverse school in NEISD or maybe even SA. We had the largest Native American student body at the time. Maybe Roosevelt was a good school. Ask people from the supposed silver spoon schools you listed if they thought so at the time and see what answers they give you. Sure there were and are worse schools. Sure it is easier for people who are born to well off families to get ahead in life. But if you really put forth the effort, you are the only one who sets limits on yourself.

By the way, my mom was born in Germany. My dad comes from immigrants of mostly Italian origin, 4th generation US born. Since I'm white I'm automatically characterized as having slave owning, indian land stealing ancestors, which could not be farther from the truth.


I never catagorized you as anything. I simply stated facts that the race group you belong to is in control.

Do you deny it?

And it is easier as you pointed out for well to dos to get ahead in life. Why should minorities have to struggle so much harder than non minorities (i'll use this more pc term since aparently white is no longer kosher) to get to the same point?

You know, everyone complains that they have nothing to do with their ancestors acts of slavery and discrimination, but I haven't heard one person complain about the benifits they now reap from it.

[MannyIsGod]

That's my post above, forgot to log her out again.

[travis2]

So what's your solution? Punish anyone who makes more money than you (or your parents) do?

All I've heard from you so far is "you make more than I do so you're a bad person" bullshit.

[Useruser666]

I never catagorized you as anything. I simply stated facts that the race group you belong to is in control.

Do you deny it?

And it is easier as you pointed out for well to dos to get ahead in life. Why should minorities have to struggle so much harder than non minorities (i'll use this more pc term since aparently white is no longer kosher) to get to the same point?

You know, everyone complains that they have nothing to do with their ancestors acts of slavery and discrimination, but I haven't heard one person complain about the benifits they now reap from it.

Um, my post was not aimed at you. My ancestors had nothing to do with slavery in this country, so that is why I don't comment on it. I don't see how anyone in this day or age either benefits or suffers from slavery as much as the direct result of being poor and living in a poverty region. These factors may have been a direct result of slavery and or social caste systems from the past. I know people who were born privilaged that have blown it and people that were born dirt poor and have had very succesful lives. The funny thing about all these cases is that race or ethnicity made NO difference whatsoever. Maybe it is harder foor a poor hispanic than a poor cracker, I don't know. My point was simply that you can do whatever you want with your life. It's up to you.

[travis2]

My point was simply that you can do whatever you want with your life. It's up to you.

Absolutely correct. My in-laws are Hispanic and quite successful...and didn't start that way. They did it themselves.

[MannyIsGod]

So what's your solution? Punish anyone who makes more money than you (or your parents) do?

All I've heard from you so far is "you make more than I do so you're a bad person" bullshit.

The solution is an equalizing of the situations. The origional reason I posted in this thread is because Bill Cosby's remarks have been, and continue to be taken out of context.

Yes, Anyone can make something out of themselves if they work at it. That has never been debated. That does not mean that we do not have a responsibility to people out there who are suffering now as a direct result of the actions of the majority of this country while the majority continue to benefit.

If you turn a blind eye to this situation and simply go with the attitude that it's up to the impovorished alone then you will continue to see the ill effects that poverty has.

Before we even get to the solutions why isn't there a general acknowledgement that discrimination and slavery directly contributed in large part to the socio-economic situation we have today?

Or maybe many people out there simply do believe that Mexicans, Blacks, and other minorities are simply lazy?

I'm not here to advocate outrages solutions such as reperations or nonsense like that. I do want to see added government money to school districts and neighborhoods that actually need it. The robin hood act is such a crock. It simply pisses me off that Northside has the money to build a brand new football stadium when Edgewood and SAISD are having extreme problems getting by with age old schools and equipment.

[MannyIsGod]

Um, my post was not aimed at you. My ancestors had nothing to do with slavery in this country, so that is why I don't comment on it. I don't see how anyone in this day or age either benefits or suffers from slavery as much as the direct result of being poor and living in a poverty region. These factors may have been a direct result of slavery and or social caste systems from the past. I know people who were born privilaged that have blown it and people that were born dirt poor and have had very succesful lives. The funny thing about all these cases is that race or ethnicity made NO difference whatsoever. Maybe it is harder foor a poor hispanic than a poor cracker, I don't know. My point was simply that you can do whatever you want with your life. It's up to you.

And I have never denied that. Is it impossible for a minority to make something of himself? Absolutely not, and you have endless examples of the ones who have done so.

That's exactly what Bill Cosby is saying.

HOWEVER, the article above and many people put the entire onus for this in a society wide scope on the people. And that quite frankly is bullshit. There needs to be improvements made to the infrastructure that supports these people.

Everyone loves to dance around that and simply point the finger at people to make themselves something better.

[Marcus Bryant]

Damn, I needed a laugh and this thread provided it.


I never catagorized you as anything. I simply stated facts that the race group you belong to is in control.

Do you deny it?

And it is easier as you pointed out for well to dos to get ahead in life. Why should minorities have to struggle so much harder than non minorities (i'll use this more pc term since aparently white is no longer kosher) to get to the same point?

You know, everyone complains that they have nothing to do with their ancestors acts of slavery and discrimination, but I haven't heard one person complain about the benifits they now reap from it.

What drug are you on?

[Useruser666]

I'm not sure what your point is with this discussion. It's not like my ancestors are the Clampits or Rockefellars. Somewhere along my family tree there were poor people. They worked hard and went into business for themselves. Generation after generation kept improving things for themselves. I pay huge taxes in the Judson school district. Should my money be used in another area of town instead of the school right down the street? I don't think public schools should be favored in one part of town over another, but I believe at least some of this is due to the general under funding of the public school system. It's a problem everywhere.

But back the main topic. What should be done about it? Is there anything to be done? What can you and I do about it? Pay more taxes?

[JoeChalupa]

The USA is the land of opportunity and my grandparents came here, legally I may add, for a better life and we are still working for that goal.

GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!

[MannyIsGod]

Damn, I needed a laugh and this thread provided it.



What drug are you on?


What part of the post do you think was off base?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not sure what your point is with this discussion. It's not like my ancestors are the Clampits or Rockefellars. Somewhere along my family tree there were poor people. They worked hard and went into business for themselves. Generation after generation kept improving things for themselves. I pay huge taxes in the Judson school district. Should my money be used in another area of town instead of the school right down the street? I don't think public schools should be favored in one part of town over another, but I believe at least some of this is due to the general under funding of the public school system. It's a problem everywhere.

But back the main topic. What should be done about it? Is there anything to be done? What can you and I do about it? Pay more taxes?

Did you read the origional article and have you read any of the news surrounding Bill Cosby and his comments?

[Useruser666]

Did you read the origional article and have you read any of the news surrounding Bill Cosby and his comments?

Then I was refering to the sub-main topic you brought up in refernce to the article. :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

It's hard to choose between the wondrous benefits that the 'white people' derive from being white and the notion that the 'white people' are holding down the 'non-white people.'

You know what? Life is a fucking struggle for a lot of people no matter what race they are. Nowadays, here in the 21st Century, the battle is not between races but rather between those who put in the effort to improve their lot in life and those who don't. I know plenty of people of all races who pissed away their opportunities in high school and college. I've known plenty of 'white people', those with supposedly great advantages who haven't gotten one fair shake from life. I know a kid who's a high school senior in the top 10% of his class and his family is poor as dirt. Interestingly enough he is not eligible for any special consideration for admission to a university because he is a member of the privileged white race. The only way he's going to get into a decent university is on his own merit, not through his daddy's connections and certainly not on account of the color of his skin. But I know, you want to pay back historical injustice with yet more...injustice.

So spare me with your crutches and self-loathing guilt or whatever about race for you are not going to find any sympathy here.

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, check it.

When Bill Cosby spoke, he said that even though crappy situations exsist, through hard work black citizens can make something of themselves.

There was a large uproar from a lot of the community because they said that many people would point to those comments and use them as an excuse to disregard the current socio-economic situations in black neighborhoods.

Guess what that article does?

Bill Cosby's comments have a lot of merrit when taken in the context that they are spoken as a motivational factor to a specific community. They are not a commentary on how to solve the overall problem in place as the article and other people in this thread have suggested they are but mearly an attempt to reach out to people in hopes of saving some.

Solutions? #1 begin a serious discussion that acknowledges how far behind these neighborhoods are and begin serious attempts are raising the standard of living and education in those neighborhoods. That would go a long way to addressing the problem.

The best way to solve any society wide problem is through education and awareness of the problem. Education will go a long way which is why I was quick to point out the differences in those schools.

More money is going to have to be poured into those neighborhoods and areas. It is an investment.

Take one look at an episode of Cops and you'll see that we are already spending money in these areas at a very high rate. Only it's in a very reactive way and not a proactive way that will yeild results.

[Marcus Bryant]

Here's a solution: look at people as individuals not as members of monolithic racial groups. That's a start.

[MannyIsGod]

It's hard to choose between the wondrous benefits that the 'white people' derive from being white and the notion that the 'white people' are holding down the 'non-white people.'


There has been "equality" in this country for all of 40 years, and thats going on the assumption that the Civil Rights acts acted like a light switch.

Do you honestly feel that the situation has come full circle and that we are all now on level ground?



You know what? Life is a fucking struggle for a lot of people no matter what race they are. Nowadays, here in the 21st Century, the battle is not between races but rather between those who put in the effort to improve their lot in life and those who don't. I know plenty of people of all races who pissed away their opportunities in high school and college. I've known plenty of 'white people', those with supposedly great advantages who haven't gotten one fair shake from life. I know a kid who's a high school senior in the top 10% of his class and his family is poor as dirt. Interestingly enough he is not eligible for any special consideration for admission to a university because he is a member of the privileged white race. The only way he's going to get into a decent university is on his own merit, not through his daddy's connections and certainly not on account of the color of his skin. But I know, you want to pay back historical injustice with yet more...injustice.

So spare me with your crutches and self-loathing guilt or whatever about race for you are not going to find any sympathy here.

Ok then, explain to me why more people of color find themselves in Poverty? Why are the crime rates in their neighborhoods higher? Why are their life expectancies lower? Why are there higher rates of almost every social problems in those parts of our society?

Why Marcus?

The problem is that you guys want to use specific examples to fight the statistics of a broad problem. We all know poor white people and we all know rich minorities.

HOWEVER IT IS GOD DAMN STATISICAL FACT WRITTEN IN STONE THAT MINORITIES ARE IN A WORSE SITUATION THAN NON MINORITIES.

So, if it's not because of what I have detailed, THEN WHAT IS THE CAUSE?

[Marcus Bryant]

You know what? I don't give a fuck. That's the honest answer.

Now if you want to couch this discussion in terms of helping poor people improve their lot in life and improve the educational opportunities of poor kids then I do care.

But as long as you want to make this about race you can go fuck yourself and I mean that sincerely.

[MannyIsGod]

Exactly, I didn't think you'd be able to come up with another reason.

Yeah, now it's convinient to forget about race because we're on this imaginary equal ground created by anti discrimination legislation and affermative action.

The fact remains that minorities have been discriminated in this country for a very long time and while racism is becoming a thing of the past it's effects are not so quick to leave.

As I stated in this post :


When did I say there were no white people?

The fact that there are poor white people somehow invalidates the arguement that hundreds of years of inequality has not be equalized?

The fact is that I think racism is at an all time low, and what we have now is classism, based on how much money you have. The thing is, because of the opression minoritiys have endured in this country, they aren't on the same level as most anglos. If you were a poor white person, then you are in the same boat,but the fact remains that the ruling majority of this country are dispraportionatly white men.


Which I then backed up the stats I posted.

Yes marcus, I am for helping all poor people, not just mexicans or any other minority. I am against Aff. Action, and you know that as well.

But there is a reason for those poverty stats, and that needs to be taken into account.

[Marcus Bryant]

If being white is the ticket to success why are Asian-Americans traditionally overrepresented at US universities? Hmmm.

As for your poverty stats first off what proportion of those are immigrants?

[Marcus Bryant]

The fact remains that minorities have been discriminated in this country for a very long time and while racism is becoming a thing of the past it's effects are not so quick to leave.

Here's another fact: a lot of "anglos" weren't born with any advantages at all. Interestingly none of the benefits they are supposed to enjoy due to their 'whiteness' have appeared.

If you want to know what is keeping people poor then yes, the lack of a quality K-12 education is a good place to start.

[Marcus Bryant]

Also, I'd like it explained to me how I am oppressing the "minorities" today.

Thanks.

[Useruser666]

Also, I'd like it explained to me how I am oppressing the "minorities" today.

Thanks.

Manny I just don't understand what your getting at then.

Yes, we should improve education for everyone.
Yes, that education should be of equal quality and avalibilty.

I agree with all of that. But what are you getting at? You keep mentioning race as some sort of determining factor for success. As long as you believe that then you're the one who will be put down. I don't want to be treated differently, and I sure as hell don't treat anyone differently because of their race, beliefs, or background. When you go out as an Elf will you only give presents to minorities? Of course not, it's based on poverty not color. That is they way any supportive actions that need to be taken, should be taken.

[Marcus Bryant]

White's make up 8.2 of the percentage of people under the poverty line.

Race/Ethnicity
White, not Hispanic 15,902 8.2
Black alone or in combination* 9,108 24.3
Black alone 8,781 24.4
Hispanic origin+ 9,051 22.5
Asian alone or in combination* 1,527 11.8
Asian alone 1,401 11.8

And you think this has nothing to do with things Hook and User?

http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/irp/faqs/faq3dir/povtab03-one.htm

That's an incorrect reading of the table. That is 8.2% of "whites" are under that arbitrary poverty line.

In absolute terms 'whites' make up the largest racial group among the poor.

This doesn't change your general point since 'non-whites' are more likely to fall under that poverty line (24.4% of "Black" and 22.5% of "Hispanic"), but I think this is a worthwhile clarification.

Of interest is the rather low poverty rate among Asian-Americans. Certainly Asian-Americans as a group have experienced historical discrimination yet their incidence of poverty (11.8%) is half that of African-and Hispanic-Americans and just slightly more than the 'white' poverty rate.

According to Census Bureau estimates (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty03/table4.pdf) about 68% of those under the poverty line are "white."

[MannyIsGod]

You guys have missed every single point I've made and interpreted it completely off.

so once again I pose this and await an answer that makes sense.



Ok then, explain to me why more people of color find themselves in Poverty? Why are the crime rates in their neighborhoods higher? Why are their life expectancies lower? Why are there higher rates of almost every social problems in those parts of our society?

[MannyIsGod]

That's an incorrect reading of the table. That is 8.2% of "whites" are under that arbitrary poverty line.

In absolute terms 'whites' make up the largest racial group among the poor.

This doesn't change your general point since 'non-whites' are more likely to fall under that poverty line (24.4% of "Black" and 22.5% of "Hispanic"), but I think this is a worthwhile clarification.

Of interest is the rather low poverty rate among Asian-Americans. Certainly Asian-Americans as a group have experienced historical discrimination yet their incidence of poverty (11.8%) is half that of African-and Hispanic-Americans and just slightly more than the 'white' poverty rate.

According to Census Bureau estimates (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty03/table4.pdf) about 68% of those under the poverty line are "white."

When I first read this I misunderstood the figures you were giving but it's pretty clear now.

[MannyIsGod]

If being white is the ticket to success why are Asian-Americans traditionally overrepresented at US universities? Hmmm.

As for your poverty stats first off what proportion of those are immigrants?

I never said being white is a ticket to success. What I've said time in and time out is that statisticaly minorities have a more difficult time succeeding in this country due in large part to the policies that had been in place for a very long time.

For Hispanics, I'd imagine a good percentage of them are of immigrant nature which would render them much less valid in this argument.

However, that being said, it would also serve to know when the immigration took place to see how long they have been in this country.

For African Americans I'd imagine that there would be a very LOW, perhaps even negligble, immigration influence on those numbers.

[MannyIsGod]

Here's another fact: a lot of "anglos" weren't born with any advantages at all. Interestingly none of the benefits they are supposed to enjoy due to their 'whiteness' have appeared.

If you want to know what is keeping people poor then yes, the lack of a quality K-12 education is a good place to start.


Once again, I never said being white automaticaly gives you a silver spoon in your mouth. Saying that minorities have a more difficult time overall than anglo's means that in a General sense that is the case, but not in every specific case.

It's like this. African Americans has a higher chance of getting sickle cell anemia than any other racial group. That doesn't mean a white person can't get it.

Hispanics have a higher chance of devloping diabeties, that doesn't mean a white person can't develop the disease.

Minorities have a larger chance of being poor and facing barriers torwards success, that doesn't mean white people can't be poor.

[Guru of Nothing]

You dodged the Asian-American anomaly Manny.

[MannyIsGod]

Sigh, I feel as though I'm sounding like a broken record and I think I'm being very clear here.



Manny I just don't understand what your getting at then.

Yes, we should improve education for everyone.
Yes, that education should be of equal quality and avalibilty.



Good, what's so hard to understand about that?




I agree with all of that. But what are you getting at? You keep mentioning race as some sort of determining factor for success.
[quote]

WRONG. I am mentioning it as a contributing factor. And if you don't think it is, then kindly explain the figures.

[quote]
As long as you believe that then you're the one who will be put down. I don't want to be treated differently, and I sure as hell don't treat anyone differently because of their race, beliefs, or background. When you go out as an Elf will you only give presents to minorities?
[quote]

No but I guarntee you the vast majority of those recieving those gifts will be...you guessed it, minorities.

[quote]
Of course not, it's based on poverty not color.


No, not entirely. Partialy? Not on color persay but perhaps on the actions that were undertaken those of color? Once again, if you disagree on this, explain to me those numbers and why minorities suffer higher poverty levels.



That is they way any supportive actions that need to be taken, should be taken.



Look, it's this simple for me.

There is a problem called poverty which effects people of color disproportionatly (See, this mexican can't learn to spell). I believe this is a direct result from slavery and other discrimination activities that have very recently stopped.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Give me other theorys, I'm willing to listen.

[MannyIsGod]

You dodged the Asian-American anomaly Manny.

Were asians effected in a large way by slavery?

Were asians as large a part of this country or has there been more recent surges in immigration after the civil rights acts?

I don't know, and I can try to find out, but I don't have all the answers.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and I love how the moment I don't answer a question it's pointed out, yet I'm still waiting for a credible reason as to why minorities make up dispraportionate percentages of the people under the poverty line.

[Guru of Nothing]

Were asians effected in a large way by slavery?

Were asians as large a part of this country or has there been more recent surges in immigration after the civil rights acts?

I don't know, and I can try to find out, but I don't have all the answers.

Regarding slavery, no, Asians have not been affected in a "large way" in the United States; nor have Hispanics.

I don't know this to be correct, but until proven otherwise, I believe that, overwhelmingly, Asian-Americans have achieved the financial success that they have because of intense internal pressure from within their family to succeed - beginning with elementary education.

[MannyIsGod]

Recent demographic changes

While American immigration history is marked with intentional efforts to keep Asians out and to restrict their rights when admitted, Hing's study also shows that laws often have unintended consequences. No one in Congress or the White House in the mid-1960s, for instance, predicted that Asians would come to be 48 percent of legal immigration.

The Congressional record shows that the 1965 amendments, a major overhaul of U.S. immigration law, were intended to advance European immigration, Hing said, while at the same time removing quotas that clearly gave preference to white Europeans.

Yet, European immigration is now only about 12 percent of the total, despite further amendments passed in 1989 to provide Europeans with "transition visas" not available to Asians.

"We have never understood the limits of legally imposed control or the frequently unpredictable and sometimes paradoxical consequences of immigration policies and laws," he said.

One result of the 1965 amendments is that the Asian American population has increased from 1 million in 1965 to 7 million in 1990, with about 7 in 10 foreign born.

Japanese were the largest Asian American group in 1965, followed by Chinese Americans. Now Chinese are the largest, followed by Filipinos; and discernible Korean and Asian Indian communities have developed, along with Vietnamese who have come primarily as refugees. The total Vietnamese group most likely will outnumber Japanese by the year 2000, he said.

In addition, Laotians, Kampucheans, Thais, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Hmong, Samoans and Tongans are beginning to establish substantial U.S. communities, Hing said.



http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/93/930712Arc3186.html

As you can see, there has been a large surge in immigration from Asian countries post 65 which would also mean the surge started in a post civil rights era.

I'm trying to find more information on this, but it's a pain in the ass to find specific information.

[Guru of Nothing]

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/93/930712Arc3186.html

As you can see, there has been a large surge in immigration from Asian countries post 65 which would also mean the surge started in a post civil rights era.
I'm trying to find more information on this, but it's a pain in the ass to find specific information.

I think we are still on different wavelengths. Post-Civil Rights era?!

Manny, you want to fix a problem, but yet you insist on wallowing in the past. I don't think you can do both. Feel free to prove me wrong, but where will that get you?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not wallowing in the past GON. I'm arguing a point here that has historical significance in what it has caused today. Weren't you the one who pointed out to Duff the answer wasn't the only thing that mattered?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=105215&postcount=47

I'm trying to make the point that there is a reason that minorities are in the position they are in today.

The moment I make valid points torwards that, I get accused of living in the past or I get reminded that being born white is not the equivlant of a silver spoon.

We all know there is a problem in these neighborhoods and we all know that government assistance is very slow in coming and is often distributed in short sighted unefficent ways.

So, if you feel that me arguing against a mindset that puts the entire burden of success upon a society which has been hindered and set back is wallowing in the past, then we'll have to disagree.

I merely have to point to the article that started this thread to point out that assistance to minorities is something that is far from assured. FAR from it.

Look, I just think that this country has done a large disservice to minorities and the least it can do now is provide them with a means to get an adequte education. I feel it's the least it can do for poor people of any color.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh and I meant post civil rights ACT era.

[Guru of Nothing]

Damn! It's still early, and I have a few beers left, so here goes.



I'm not wallowing in the past GON. I'm arguing a point here that has historical significance in what it has caused today. Weren't you the one who pointed out to Duff the answer wasn't the only thing that mattered?

You kind of got me there, but I will try to recover.


I'm trying to make the point that there is a reason that minorities are in the position they are in today.

Care to divy the responsibilities for this plight between the individual and taxpayers?



The moment I make valid points torwards that, I get accused of living in the past or I get reminded that being born white is not the equivlant of a silver spoon.

Manny, your approach just seems all wrong to me. You are trying to make the world a better place for minorities, rather than just making the world a better place



We all know there is a problem in these neighborhoods and we all know that government assistance is very slow in coming and is often distributed in short sighted unefficent ways.

Whitey agrees with you.


So, if you feel that me arguing against a mindset that puts the entire burden of success upon a society which has been hindered and set back is wallowing in the past, then we'll have to disagree.

Take this to your grave Manny. You cannot argue against a "mindset" and win minds. It does NOT happen. Action is required (i.e. acorn.org)


Look, I just think that this country has done a large disservice to minorities and the least it can do now is provide them with a means to get an adequte education. I feel it's the least it can do for poor people of any color.

Here we disagree. As a taxpayer, I have provided the means. Teachers, books, and a roof (and something resembling proper nutrition, I hope). You may want more, and so may I, but, (again, speaking as a taxpayer) this where my obligation ends.

Actually, I'm willing to pay more, but only within the context of my local school district

[travis2]

Look, I just think that this country has done a large disservice to minorities and the least it can do now is provide them with a means to get an adequte education. I feel it's the least it can do for poor people of any color.

And I'm still waiting for your shot at a solution.

I have no problem with money for education. That is, if it's used for education, not padding the pockets of school boards or district administrators.

I expect accountability as the price for that money. That means testing. That means teacher evaluations.


Personally, I'd like to see a multi-tier system, much like what you'd see in Germany or the like. Let's face it, not everyone is cut out for college. We may have equal right endowed to us by our Creator, but that doesn't mean we are of equal makeup. There used to be a voc-ed track in school, but it's been done away with. This was a mistake.

Likewise, I don't want to see honors or GT programs done away with either. You say that would never happen? Do your research...it's been tried. Sometimes the claim is that it costs too much, but often times parents of those not in those programs are jealous that their own dimple-darlings can't seem to handle it and try to take it away from others who can.

I am educationally very hard-core...but I also understand the need for extra-curricular activities. When kept in the proper place, they are a valuable addition to any kid's education. And I don't mean just sports...I mean fine arts...I mean "nerd competitions"...I mean everything.

In my ideal case, every student would be able to choose the track they want to pursue (honors/GT, "standard", voc-ed). There would be no testing required to enter the honors/GT track, but there would be a performance threshold that would have to be maintained or risk dropping back to the "standard" track. No one would be forced to be on the voc-ed track, either...but it would be available for those who want to enter the trades and have no desire to attend college.

The state funding scheme for public schools needs to be addressed. Robin Hood was nothing more than class warfare and I'm not sorry to see it go. We do need a better system. On the other hand, I'm not willing to sacrifice my own kids' education to make someone else "feel" better. Any changes had better be at least neutral to my kids' current system or I will fight tooth and nail.


Manny, I dispute your "right" to have a chip on your shoulder. Have you personally been discriminated against? You mention your grandfather and what he went through. Fine...he's entitled to that chip. But until you actually go through what he went through, you're not. You don't get to inherit it.

You seem to think that my half-Hispanic kids have inherited the "right" to walk around with chips on their shoulders. Bullshit. And what's more, their Hispanic mother and Hispanic grandparents call "bullshit" on you as well. They are expected to work hard on their schoolwork and keep their grades up. They are expected to pull their weight in their extra-curricular activities. Never, not once have they ever been told that because they are Hispanic they need to act a certain way or do certain things or maintain lower expectations. And anyone who tries that bullshit will end up putting me in jail, because I will kick their @$$.

My kids are the most important thing in my life, certainly more important than someone else's kids. I would never stand in the way of someone fighting for their own kids, but I would never sacrifice my kids for someone else's.

Now, despite all this wrangling back and forth, I'm sure we can come up with a win/win scenario, or at least a close facsimile thereof. You and I actually agree about a lot of things. But we need to drop all the "chips" and class warfare crap and worry about the kids education, not what "class" they happen to belong to.

[Hook Dem]

I agree with you 100 percent Travis. There are a lot of people who have "worked" their way through college and it was not easy. This country does not owe anyone a "free" education. Thats a welfare state and makes people basically lazy. Notice I said "people". Not Mexican, colored, etc. Working is the American way and it has worked for a bunch of years. Put everything on the scale Manny and see if it is worth giving up some "fun" to further your education. I did not attend college. I went to the school of "hard Knocks". It's not always a smooth road but one can be very comfortable doing that. It's okay to dream of that job where you will be financially wealthy but it doesn't turn out that way in most cases. Forget about solving all the world's problems for a while and concentrate on your own. It seems to be the most important at hand.

[Duff McCartney]

It simply pisses me off that Northside has the money to build a brand new football stadium when Edgewood and SAISD are having extreme problems getting by with age old schools and equipment.

It shouldn't piss you off...they also had the money to make my old high school John Jay way better. It was a pretty crappy when I went there...but now that I graduated, they made the school better so that my cousins who go there now can enjoy what I didn't have at the school.

[Duff McCartney]

Were asians effected in a large way by slavery?

Were asians as large a part of this country or has there been more recent surges in immigration after the civil rights acts?

I don't know, and I can try to find out, but I don't have all the answers.

Hey man Asians had it pretty bad too...in the old days in the Pacific Northwest, they had Asian people living underground in tunnels and shit. All the while waking up in the morning to work on the railroad for meager wages, not to mention in WWII having to be thrown in "relocation" camps because of their ethinicity.

[Duff McCartney]

I think all white people should have a chip on their shoulder, because not all white people are Einstein or FDR. I think all black people should have a chip on their shoulder, because not all black people are MLK or Frederick Douglass. I think all hispanic americans should have a chip on their shoulder because they are not all Hidalgo or Cesar Chavez. I think all Asian people should have a chip on their shoulder because not all asian people were Confucius.

[travis2]

You're making sense, Duff...

Obviously I haven't had enough coffee this morning...

[Marcus Bryant]

Not that it is in the same proportion as Asian-Americans but I would venture to say that a significant proportion of the Hispanic-American population is foreign born.

A few observations: first off, Asian Americans certainly historically have been the subject of discrimination and overt racism in this country.

Secondly, if America is such a horrible place for non-whites and one in which they cannot succeed why is it that as a group Asian-Americans have such a low poverty rate and are overrepresented in institutions of higher education? Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that such a large percentage of the group are indeed immigrants. Perhaps those "communities" with large immigrant populations don't carry the historical psychic baggage that others do.

To be honest the biggest problem facing the poor but not only the poor in this country is a sense of entitlement. We Americans have come to expect success, not in the sense that we strive for success as much as we think it is our birthright. This is not just an attitude among the poor but also I would argue which is pervasive throughout the 'middle class' (broadly defined). Also, we Americans are good at creating scapegoats when we fail. Historical racial discrimination is a good example, as is the impact of affirmative action programs (I feel the principle of the matter is important, but the impact of such programs on non-'protected groups' is quite small).

I don't think it is healthy for this country to be spreading a message that you should have a racial chip on your shoulder. It's simply excuse promotion and it also will only create a backlash from the evil white majority which supposedly has had everything handed to it off the backs of the ancestors of the non-white population.

If we are going to continue to look at the plight of the poor through the prism of race and talk about ancestrial chips on the shoulder then perhaps those with an Irish heritage can claim some benefit from the historical discrimination their ancestors faced in this country (sure, it wasn't slavery, but it wasn't equal and it was quite unfair.) Perhaps we can have a Federal Commission on Historical Racial and Ethnic Grievances and that commission could establish a system for determining how much grovelling one could engage in due to their ancestrial racial, ethnic, and nationalistic heritage. African-Americans would be entitled to the most, Hispanics a little less, then perhaps Asians, and last Irish, German, Polish, etc.

Or perhaps we can recognize that this is the 21st Century and if you want to help the poor break the cycle of poverty (which is commendable) then look at them as the poor and stop looking for scapegoats, something which some non-white racial groups have somehow managed to overcome in this racist America which is ruled by the evil dominant white race or whatever.

Good Day.
-MB

[JoeChalupa]

Damn. I guess racial issues are here to stay. Not that I ever thought they wouldn't be.

Because we are animals and nature, for lack of a better word, takes its course not everyone can be rich or successful. It is the survival of the fittest and there will always be the "have" and the "have nots" as long as there are humans on this earth.

But for many, money doesn't equal happiness or success, so they are content with living their lives on their terms. Some may call them lazy and some may say they have no ambition in life but perhaps their ambitions just don't follow along the "almighty benjamins" theory that so many Americans seem to have these days.

Oh well, live and let live is my motto.

[Hook Dem]

Damn. I guess racial issues are here to stay. Not that I ever thought they wouldn't be.

Because we are animals and nature, for lack of a better word, takes its course not everyone can be rich or successful. It is the survival of the fittest and there will always be the "have" and the "have nots" as long as there are humans on this earth.

But for many, money doesn't equal happiness or success, so they are content with living their lives on their terms. Some may call them lazy and some may say they have no ambition in life but perhaps their ambitions just don't follow along the "almighty benjamins" theory that so many Americans seem to have these days.

Oh well, live and let live is my motto.
Exactly what I just said Joe! Agreed.

[MannyIsGod]

Have you personally been discriminated against

Yes, in a job hiring situation. Interestingly enough, by another minority.

Anyhow, that's besides the point.

You guys come into a thread with racial repurcussions from the get go (Read the first article) and then I get lambasted because I'm talking about improovements for minorities.

Insane. I figured you guys knew that a thread that was discussing an African American group would have contained information that pertains to minorities.

Anyhow, Travis, I am with you about 90% on education reform, especialy noting that not everyone is made for college.

I do however believe there needs to be an equalization of money in some respects because quite frankly it benefits EVERYONE to bring the poor up to par.

Oh, and I never said it was off of the GoN. Look at my first freaking post in here. I acknowledge that what Cosby says is CORRECT, you simply have to take it within context.

Duff, Yeah, they made improvements to Jay. I really like the useless marquee outside. I wonder how much money was wasted on that. And that stadium is still up while students in Edgewood and SAISD have pretty shitty situations. Buy yeah, I guess after they were done improving all of the schools in the NW area, the finally got around to Jay.

You want to know what upsets me? The mindset of this country that hundreds of years of discrimination, slavery, and acts of agression (See Also: The Mexican American War, The Spanish American War, The Texas Revolution, and The Indian Wars)
have had no repurcussions on Black Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, and others.

Or that somehow we've erased those effects in 40 years of semi equality. I don't define myself by my race by any means. Those of you that know me in person know that I spend more time cracking on myself for being Mexican with funny stereotypes.

However, none of you will ever have the right to decide when I have justified "chip on my shoulder". Why? Because you have not walked my shoes or in my familys shoes.

Not every single one of you have benefited from the racial situation pre1960. Not every single one of you who is anglo is rich or ever had opportunitys that minorities did not.

But some of you have.

Yeah, I'm here to help people of any color or creed, and that will never change. But this discussion has had an effect on me to relalize a bit more how much people are willing to dismiss racial inequality as a non issue.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh and MB, you totaly ignored the fact that most Asian Americans have immigrated after the Civil Rights changes of the 60s.

[Marcus Bryant]

Doesn't matter. What advantages have those non-white immigrants enjoyed, exactly?

So you want to make fun of yourself for being "Mexican" yet you want to be pissed off because once upon a time your grandfather was ridiculed for being...

[travis2]

Manny, if you keep making race an issue, then it will never go away as an issue.

Or..."If you don't quit picking that scab, it will never heal."

As for equalization, I did say that the state funding system does need to be reformed. As do many of the school boards (oversight and such) and district administrations.

But I don't believe in building people up by tearing others down. If that is part of any proposed solution, I will fight it. If your solution is "well, district XYZ needs more money, so district ABC needs to cut the following programs to free up that money", then forget it.

[MannyIsGod]

In no way to I want to tear people down Travis, I just feel that some people need extra help and they are entitled to the extra help.

I don't want to make race an issue, but it's a very legitimate reason as to WHY those people need the extra help.

I don't agree with Robin Hood, and I stated that above. What people in here don't seem to understand is that I'm not arguing against white people, I am arguing FOR minorities.

[Marcus Bryant]

How about just arguing for helping low-income citizens?

[MannyIsGod]

Doesn't matter. What advantages have those non-white immigrants enjoyed, exactly?

So you want to make fun of yourself for being "Mexican" yet you want to be pissed off because once upon a time your grandfather was ridiculed for being...


Advantages? THE ADVANTAGES OF HAVING A MUCH MORE LEVEL PLAYING FEILD!

Good Grief!

[travis2]

So propose something. So far you and I agree on many things that need to be done. How to get there is the problem.

[MannyIsGod]

How about just arguing for helping low-income citizens?

Thats what I'm doing, and thats what I've always done. But this thread was started in the context of what BILL COSBY said.

Fuck man, do you have trouble reading? I've said this 304830948320948 times.

[Marcus Bryant]

Here's a basic problem: once upon a time protest and political action was needed to open up opportunities for all. An outgrowth of that movement which came to a head nearly half a century ago is the notion that the only way non-white individuals are going to succeed in this country is through protest instead of through (edit) individual (/edit) effort.

Another troubling outgrowth is that individuals are raised to believe that everything that doesn't go their way in life is due to racism.

So we move from a generation confronting racism boldly to generations manufacturing racism in order to give themselves an excuse.

Again, the more appealing approach is to base efforts to assist those in need on the fact that they are in need and drop the racial grievance/payback tone.

[Marcus Bryant]

Advantages? THE ADVANTAGES OF HAVING A MUCH MORE LEVEL PLAYING FEILD!

Good Grief!

Then haven't the other non-white groups enjoyed those advantages as well?

[Marcus Bryant]

Thats what I'm doing, and thats what I've always done. But this thread was started in the context of what BILL COSBY said.

Fuck man, do you have trouble reading? I've said this 304830948320948 times.


No, I have no trouble reading for I am a member of the evil white majority which continues to enjoy the fruits of oppressing your "Mexican" forebears, such as attending a racially mixed school and receiving the same quality of education as plenty of blacks, browns, and yellows, if we must still color by race.

[MannyIsGod]

Marcus,

Fair enough, and I can buy into that quite honestly.

I agree that too much of the blame is put on racism, and which is why people like Bill Cosby speak out. They are met by a lot of resistance from their own communities but much of that is not because they don't believe what is being said, but rather because they are afraid of the words being twisted and used much as they are in this threads first post.

Travis,

A complete overhaul of the system. Much more money going to schools that are obviously in need of it. I use San Antonio examples because they are obvious to me but I know this scene is repeated in every inner city enviroment.

Solutions? Wow, where to begin. You need a complete overhaul of not only the education system, but of the way money is infused into needy neighborhoods. You have to improve the infrastructure and start government funded community outreach programs. Nonprofits like Acorn that are trying to get communities together need more help.

We have a lot of money going into these areas as it is, but I feel it's all reactionary and not proactive. I think regardless of what steps we put into place, we need to realize that change is going to happen very slow over the course of a generation.

Also, the prohobition of drugs impacts these areas a HORRIBLE rate. It's hard to tell a kid to stay in school because it's whats best for him when selling drugs is so damn lucrative.

Reconstruction. Thats what needs to happen. You need to improve these communties from the ground up and rally them together. I know thats a really broad answer, but that's honestly the only way I see it happening. And a lot of the resources for that are going to have to come from the Federal and State governments.

[MannyIsGod]

Then haven't the other non-white groups enjoyed those advantages as well?

Of course, but they were further behind to start off with because of the opression.

[Marcus Bryant]

In what way? Surely not all of those immigrants were coming to America with pockets full of gold.

1965 was almost 40 years ago.

[MannyIsGod]

No, but is it out of this world to think that they were coming with more money than those who were already here?

[Marcus Bryant]

It might just be. A lot of immigrants come from countries where the average annual income doesn't even break a grand in US$. They come here and they take shit jobs. That certainly includes Asian immigrants.

[travis2]

It might just be. A lot of immigrants come from countries where the average annual income doesn't even break a grand in US$. They come here and they take shit jobs. That certainly includes Asian immigrants.

Especially the Vietnamese refugees from the mid-70s. The vast majority of them came over with nothing.

[travis2]

Manny, just out of curiosity...why did you bring up the NISD stadium complex multiple times in your arguments? You do know that wasn't State money that built that, don't you?

[Marcus Bryant]

nm

[MannyIsGod]

Travis, merely to show the differences these kids face. I know it was built with bond money.

Marcus,

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that all poor people should be helped regardless of race. It's a shame it's an uphill battle to get that help.

[Duff McCartney]

Duff, Yeah, they made improvements to Jay. I really like the useless marquee outside. I wonder how much money was wasted on that. And that stadium is still up while students in Edgewood and SAISD have pretty shitty situations. Buy yeah, I guess after they were done improving all of the schools in the NW area, the finally got around to Jay.

The important thing is it got done...and now the school is better so kids can have a better library with more books, kids like my cousins.

[travis2]

Travis[/b],

A complete overhaul of the system. Much more money going to schools that are obviously in need of it. I use San Antonio examples because they are obvious to me but I know this scene is repeated in every inner city enviroment.

Solutions? Wow, where to begin. You need a complete overhaul of not only the education system, but of the way money is infused into needy neighborhoods. You have to improve the infrastructure and start government funded community outreach programs. Nonprofits like Acorn that are trying to get communities together need more help.

We have a lot of money going into these areas as it is, but I feel it's all reactionary and not proactive. I think regardless of what steps we put into place, we need to realize that change is going to happen very slow over the course of a generation.

Also, the prohobition of drugs impacts these areas a HORRIBLE rate. It's hard to tell a kid to stay in school because it's whats best for him when selling drugs is so damn lucrative.

Reconstruction. Thats what needs to happen. You need to improve these communties from the ground up and rally them together. I know thats a really broad answer, but that's honestly the only way I see it happening. And a lot of the resources for that are going to have to come from the Federal and State governments.

Taxes. A lot of the problems in funding are because of loopholes and exemptions on the business property tax side. These need to be tightened up and (in the future) used more with a long-term view. There is nothing wrong with their existence (despite what some of those on this board might say); the problem is they've been overused and abused. To get businesses into an area, they need to have a reason to be there (despite those on this board who seem to think that employers should be public charities). You give a little to get a lot...just need to be smarter about how it's done.

Local control. This is never going away, and frankly I wouldn't want it to. If it were completely up to the State to supply any and all funding for my district, I would be very afraid. Any changes in the funding formula is going to have to take this into account. It's not a trivial proposition, I know...but it's just as important as making sure the poorer districts get a better funding mechanism. It can be done, I'm sure...it's just going to take people sitting down and thinking about it, and not listening to a bunch of lobbyists (from either side of the aisle).

Community outreach and reconstruction. The best way the government could handle this is to make it attractive for citizens/companies/organizations to provide money and materials towards these tasks.

Government agencies are notoriously bad at administering programs like these (all the money somehow gets lost in the top-heavy bureaucracy that springs up like mold on old bread). Instead, if they offered targeted tax breaks to people/groups, the money could be donated and administered at lower levels. It's a win/win situation in that case.

Plus, studies and "common sense" both show that if a community is involved in its own reconstruction (rather than just having some "benefactor" come in and rebuild everything), the community works harder towards keeping it clean, safe, and in good repair.

I don't care much for hand-outs...but I'm more than willing to give a hand up.

BTW...define what you mean by your statement about current money being "reactionary, not proactive".

[Hook Dem]

"BTW...define what you mean by your statement about current money being "reactionary, not proactive"." ............................He means that it was given begrudgingly instead of "from the heart". :rolleyes

[Marcus Bryant]

I came across this last night and found it rather interesting and relevant to this discussion.

http://www.economist.com/World/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3447395

Californian women
Asians on top (mmmm, Asian women on top - MB)

Dec 2nd 2004 | LOS ANGELES
The Economist

It's simple: education is the key to success

http://www.economist.com/images/20041204/CUS162.gif

WOMEN, according to Chairman Mao, hold up half the sky—but in California some are better rewarded for this effort than others. According to a new study from the Public Policy Institute of California, Asian women born in the United States outstrip all their sisters in terms of earning power.

The average hourly wage for American-born Asian ladies in 2001 (the latest year with reliable figures) was $19.30, with American-born whites coming next (see table). On the bottom rungs of the ladder came Latinas: if born abroad, they earned a mere $10.40 an hour (though this was comfortably above California's then $6.25 minimum wage); if born in America, they managed $15.10 an hour.

Education is the biggest reason for the ethnic disparities. Some 55% of California's American-born Asian women have at least a bachelor's degree, and an impressive 84% of them either have jobs or are looking for them. By contrast, only 14% of American-born Hispanic women have a bachelor's degree and only 74% of them are in the labour market. Meanwhile, Latinas born abroad are often condemned to low-paying jobs by an even skimpier education or a poor knowledge of English. Much the same can be said of Asian women born in South-East Asia, a category that includes refugees from Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia. The institute calculates that they earned an average of $15.80, almost $1 less than other foreign-born Asians.

But education is not the only factor in play for California's women. Larger families make it more difficult for Latinas to go out to work in the first place; blacks often live too far away to commute to well-paid jobs; and just as Asians may benefit from high expectations, so other groups may suffer from low ones.

The institute makes an attempt, heroic or politically correct, to adjust for such factors, imagining, for example, that a foreign-born Latina has the same family structure, education and place of residence as the average Californian woman. That brings the average wage for foreign-born Latinas up to a more respectable $15.20; yet American-born Asians still rule the roost. But before the golden girls get too happy, the institute reckons that Californian women of all sorts tend to earn roughly 20% less than their menfolk do.