Video of the 1604 Tolls.

[Buddy Holly]

Western Segment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6HUqKjnHcU

Northern segment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1O3XtBsGI0

Eastern segment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOM00JamJC4

[Nbadan]

Texas Report Shows Toll Roads Not Needed (http://youtube.com/watch?v=S_rLljO2p_k)

Texas Gov. Rick Perry, Cintra and TTC (http://youtube.com/watch?v=oSIZ2-1kLnY)

TxDOT Arrogance Displayed at House Hearing (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jv2LpOhSquo)

Cameras Capturing License Plates On Toll Roads (http://youtube.com/watch?v=erx7R6vHMvU)

Free TollTags for Bureaucrats (even dead ones!) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SozHRFNPmLQ&mode=related&search=)

[scott]

Texas Report Shows Toll Roads Not Needed

And people still don't get it... toll roads aren't designed to find a way to pay for the roads, they are designed to remove the economic externality in place with ANY road and eliminate overcrowding problems that naturally occur when any good is effectively free to consume.

Get a clue.

The animations look good, and for personal reasons I'm glad all lanes are at grade around NW Military.

[SpursWoman]

That looks like a total nightmare. :lol

I live on 1604 (the access road is the only way out of my neighborhood so far) ... so as long as there's a way for me not to have to pay a toll just to go get a gallon of milk, I don't really care. Although the construction will definitely suck ass for a long, long time.

[Shelly]

well, from having driven on the toll roads in Orange County, CA--they're a godsend!

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

That looks like a total nightmare. :lol

I live on 1604 (the access road is the only way out of my neighborhood so far) ... so as long as there's a way for me not to have to pay a toll just to go get a gallon of milk, I don't really care. Although the construction will definitely suck ass for a long, long time.

That's my concern. If there's an affordable option to where I don't have to stop at booths and/or have a ton of change on me, I'm fine.

[Extra Stout]

That's my concern. If there's an affordable option to where I don't have to stop at booths and/or have a ton of change on me, I'm fine.
You'll eventually break down and get the tag that goes on your windshield.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

You'll eventually break down and get the tag that goes on your windshield.

I'll pre-order the damn tag now. :lol

I was on 1604 yesterday and started thinking about the tolls. I understand the benefits and drawbacks, but think it's a good idea for the way this area is expanding.

[hello13]

Traffic on 1604 goes from about 60-80mph then all of a sudden you gotta slam on the brakes and swerve because at either, I35N/S, NACO, GOLD CANYON, 281, STONE OAK PRKWY, BLANCO, NW MILITARY, I10, BABCOCK, HAUSMAN, BANDERA exits they are congested.

Toll roads are needed RIGHT NOW.

Please, please, please!

[johnsmith]

Texas Report Shows Toll Roads Not Needed (http://youtube.com/watch?v=S_rLljO2p_k)

Texas Gov. Rick Perry, Cintra and TTC (http://youtube.com/watch?v=oSIZ2-1kLnY)

TxDOT Arrogance Displayed at House Hearing (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jv2LpOhSquo)

Cameras Capturing License Plates On Toll Roads (http://youtube.com/watch?v=erx7R6vHMvU)

Free TollTags for Bureaucrats (even dead ones!) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SozHRFNPmLQ&mode=related&search=)


Do "anti-toll" folks realize that these roads WILL NOT BE EXPANDED unless they toll them?

This is the only way it's going to happen.

I know every San Antonio native wants this to remain a "small town", but bad news, it won't stay that way and you need to expand.

They celebrate when companies like Toyota come here but then complain when the "small town" feel goes missing.

San Antonio is so full of hypocrites it's unbelievable.

[mookie2001]

Texas Report Shows Toll Roads Not Needed (http://youtube.com/watch?v=S_rLljO2p_k)

Texas Gov. Rick Perry, Cintra and TTC (http://youtube.com/watch?v=oSIZ2-1kLnY)

TxDOT Arrogance Displayed at House Hearing (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jv2LpOhSquo)

Cameras Capturing License Plates On Toll Roads (http://youtube.com/watch?v=erx7R6vHMvU)

Free TollTags for Bureaucrats (even dead ones!) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SozHRFNPmLQ&mode=related&search=):toast

[johnsmith]

:toast


:bang

[SpursWoman]

I know every San Antonio native wants this to remain a "small town", but bad news, it won't stay that way and you need to expand.

Eh, I'm pretty sure it's mostly about the money. :lol

[mookie2001]

:bangneocon

[johnsmith]

Eh, I'm pretty sure it's mostly about the money. :lol


Oh Good God, fine, then they need to raise taxes throughout Bexar County in order to pay for an expansion that won't be tolled.

I'm sure the folks that don't plan on and never use northern 1604 would love to do that.

:bang

[johnsmith]

neocon


How so?

[mookie2001]

honestly

people FOR tollroads are LESS or MORE likely to watch 24?

people FOR tollroads are LESS or MORE likely to purchase a vehicle with OnStar*?

people FOR tollroads are LESS or MORE likely to be pro-war?

more
more
more

[johnsmith]

honestly

people FOR tollroads are LESS or MORE likely to watch 24?

people FOR tollroads are LESS or MORE likely to purchase a vehicle with OnStar*?

people FOR tollroads are LESS or MORE likely to be pro-war?

more
more
more


I have no idea what any of the above examples has to do with toll roads.

[T Park]

Whoppeee

anything else we can pay extra for to use, that tax money goes to already?

[hello13]

who cares if they take pic of my plates??????????????????

what does that matter???

they can look at my lis. plate all day long if they want to

[johnsmith]

Whoppeee

anything else we can pay extra for to use, that tax money goes to already?


I'm not even sure what that sentence means?

[T Park]

Do "anti-toll" folks realize that these roads WILL NOT BE EXPANDED unless they toll them?

This is the only way it's going to happen.

I know every San Antonio native wants this to remain a "small town", but bad news, it won't stay that way and you need to expand.

They celebrate when companies like Toyota come here but then complain when the "small town" feel goes missing.

San Antonio is so full of hypocrites it's unbelievable


How about using the money were already taxed, to go twords it?

I know, hard to fathom, taxes being used correctly.

[mookie2001]

factor that in with foreign ownership and the north american union, rick perry- toll roads are neocons dream

[T Park]

I'm not even sure what that sentence means?


taxes aren't used to build and maintain roads?

[hello13]

Toll Roads Are Needed!!!!!!!!!!

[johnsmith]

who cares if they take pic of my plates??????????????????

what does that matter???

they can look at my lis. plate all day long if they want to


No shit.

I'm pretty sure that's what those plates are located on the outside of vehicles is for, to be identifyed.

[T Park]

factor that in with foreign ownership and the north american union, rick perry- toll roads are neocons dream

I don't know where you get this bullshit but shut the fuck up.

Im a conservative and Im 100% against toll roads.

paying money to use roads, that tax money can easily go to to build and maintain is recockulas.

[mookie2001]

I have no idea what any of the above examples has to do with toll roads.
i am correct on all those assumptions

the bottom line is tollroads, foreign ownership, north american union are neocons dream

they count on prowar people who like 24 and have OnStar* to support this shit

[johnsmith]

factor that in with foreign ownership and the north american union, rick perry- toll roads are neocons dream


You do realize that a local San Antonio runned contractor will build the roads. This particular contractor dumps more money into this city then a majority of businesses in the area (they even own part of your beloved Spurs).

Furthermore, this particular contractor will provide jobs for the next decade once this thing starts.

Finally, after a brief period, this contractor even gets a large chunk of the tolls and thus provides more and more money for the local economy, infrastructure, tourism, etc.

This is a beneficial idea.

I'm not a huge fan of the TTC, but 1604 in San Antonio will benefit many more then it will hurt.

[mookie2001]

where i get what from tpark?

north american union has been ANNOUNCED
these tollroads are owned by FOREIGN companies

you like 24

these are facts

[johnsmith]

taxes aren't used to build and maintain roads?


Absolutely, but the amount of money needed to expand 1604, 281, etc, are far beyond what we pay in taxes.

And you know as well as I do, that what we pay in taxes doesn't always reach what it's supposed to.

[johnsmith]

these tollroads are owned by FOREIGN companies

Short sighted, narrow minded, uninformed people like yourself are the problem.

[mookie2001]

not to mention its been proven that building more roads (tolls, lanes, expansion) is not a long term solution to traffic problems

[mookie2001]

Short sighted, narrow minded, uninformed people like yourself are the problem. but tpark

-doesnt know where i get that bullshit from

[johnsmith]

not to mention its been proven that building more roads (tolls, lanes, expansion) is not a long term solution to traffic problems


You know what is the long term solution?

Mass-transit systems such as light rail would be a wonderful idea. It's cleaner, more cost effective, and helps everyone.

Having said that, the brilliant law makers of San Antonio deemed it a bad idea.

So there you have it.

By the way, the mayor that helped make that decision, he was a democrat.

[johnsmith]

but tpark

-doesnt know where i get that bullshit from



Toll roads in San Antonio isn't a partisanship issue. If you want that, start a TTC thread.

[SpursWoman]

Oh Good God, fine, then they need to raise taxes throughout Bexar County in order to pay for an expansion that won't be tolled.

I'm sure the folks that don't plan on and never use northern 1604 would love to do that.

:bang

The average cost of toll roads can range from $2,000 to $4,000 per year for an average family. You don't think that concerns anyone? :lol

A percentage of Sales Tax is already dedicated to road expansion/maintenance.

I'm not arguing for or against it ... but because of where I live my main concern is whether or not I'll even be able to get out of my house without it costing me money.

[mookie2001]

you have to be honest with yourself SW

do I like 24?

am i for the north american union?

am I prowar?

would i buy a car with OnStar*?

if you answer yes to one or more of these questions- tollroads are for you

[johnsmith]

The average cost of toll roads can range from $2,000 to $4,000 per year for an average family. You don't think that concerns anyone? :lol

A percentage of Sales Tax is already dedicated to road expansion/maintenance.

I'm not arguing for or against it ... but because of where I live my main concern is whether or not I'll even be able to get out of my house without it costing me money.


You're right, that obviously does concern folks, but as I said earlier the taxes we already have in place A.) aren't enough so they'd have to be raised for everyone, and B.) most of the tax money doesn't get to the folks it's supposed to (thank your local government for that one).

As for your concern about getting out of your house, come on, you know as well as I know that the way 1604 looks nowadays on the north side, you won't have to even get off the frontage road to get to an HEB, Stripmall, luxury mall, cigar shop, sushi place, Chili's (thrown in for Buddy Holly), and everything else you could possibly need.

Sure that trip to work is going to go up some, but it would go up anyway if they raised gas taxes.

And speaking of gas, a refinery just outside of Beumont just went into a shutdown for maintenance work over labor day weekend and will soon be opening back up. This particular refinery produces 5% of our countries gasoline. While it was a shitty time to go into a shutdown, prices should come down a bit when it opens back up.

[johnsmith]

you have to be honest with yourself SW

do I like 24?

am i for the north american union?

am I prowar?

would i buy a car with OnStar*?

if you answer yes to one or more of these questions- tollroads are for you


You, Clambake, and nbaDan are the same person aren't you?

[hello13]

no, i dont like 24

yea i am for the nau

[hello13]

no pro war


yea i got onstar

[mookie2001]

I am VERY interested in hearing your arguement for the north american union

you can do it here or start a thread in the club or political forum

please do so, i feel it would lead to fascinating discussion

[johnsmith]

I am VERY interested in hearing your arguement for the north american union

you can do it here or start a thread in the club or political forum

please do so, i feel it would lead to fascinating discussion


Why don't you start the thread since you're the one that wants to discuss it.

:donkey

[mookie2001]

I dont think any American would be for it

[hello13]

it will be a free, secure, just, and prosperous North America..

whats wrong with that?

Let's all be one.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think its fucking ridiculous.


Yes they clear up traffic problems and are most definitely a "god send" in the short term, but imagine living in a city and near a toll road for 10 years.

After said ten years of driving in relatively less traffic (they still have traffic, the one i take to work goes slow as hell sometimes) how much money have you sunk into using a foreign nation's road on your own nation's soverign soil?

You coulda invested that money in a mutual fund and have some extra backing in case something awful happened like an incredibly high expense or you were laid off, etc.

I get the whole "the only reason they're foreign owned is because local companies don't want to do it" and that's true to an extent but you have to keep in mind the reasons why a local company does not want to do it. When you have a Neocon's wet dream as your governor, he doesn't exactly make it easy when his agenda is blatantly to get it foreign owned.

So I take toll roads. What effects me here and now is going to get a quicker response as opposed to the long term. Even if it means if I take this road for 10 years I'll kill myself when I see the total sum spent. I'm human and I like to sleep an extra 15 minutes to get 6.2 hours of sleep instead of less. So I take toll roads. But I hate it, and don't buy into all the propaganda they feed Marriotts as to the advantages.

I am all for the ghost idea of making a road toll to pay it off, but when do we see that anymore? It was just a ploy to make it easier to have permanent toll roads. Politics 101.

What we really need, what we have needed for about 100 years, is an energy efficient mass transit system in the state of Texas. This state of ours is not unlike a small country, with big cities stretching throughout its land. How fucking awesome would it be if you could take a state of the art monorail from san antonio to dallas to go to someone's graduation ceremony? Or if I took one from dallas to austin to spend a day or two with a buddy?

But it'll never happen. It should but it wont because while it benefits the majority of the Texas population it does not benefit those who are in control, pulling the politicans strings and guzzling all of our money not unlike our vehicles that guzzle gas waiting in traffic, sitting there, wasting valuable time "like lemmings into shiny metal boxes" as Sting says in the song Synchronicity.

[leemajors]

i have it on good authority that mookie is a neocon north american union spy sent to spy on libs. after the UN one world government movement fizzled new tactics were needed.

[hello13]

good post.

i would LOVE a light rail system.


bottom line on tolls is that i dont give a fuck how we do it, be it toll roads, free roads, tax money, whatever...i just want the congestion on the highways to become managble

i dont think its too much to ask to drive without having to sit in traffic for 2 hours each afternoon

[johnsmith]

I think its fucking ridiculous.


Yes they clear up traffic problems and are most definitely a "god send" in the short term, but imagine living in a city and near a toll road for 10 years.

After said ten years of driving in relatively less traffic (they still have traffic, the one i take to work goes slow as hell sometimes) how much money have you sunk into using a foreign nation's road on your own nation's soverign soil?

Good points, but the only company sinking money into it are both a San Antonio contractor and Cintra. Sure it costs to engineer the thing, but it's pennies compared to what Cintra is putting up.


You coulda invested that money in a mutual fund and have some extra backing in case something awful happened like an incredibly high expense or you were laid off, etc

Again, foriegn investment in the first place.


I get the whole "the only reason they're foreign owned is because local companies don't want to do it" and that's true to an extent but you have to keep in mind the reasons why a local company does not want to do it. When you have a Neocon's wet dream as your governor, he doesn't exactly make it easy when his agenda is blatantly to get it foreign owned.

Local companies outside of the top 15 contractors in the United States cannot afford to do this job, the risk in highway work is un fucking believable and they wouldn't be willing to put up the cash.


So I take toll roads. What effects me here and now is going to get a quicker response as opposed to the long term. Even if it means if I take this road for 10 years I'll kill myself when I see the total sum spent. I'm human and I like to sleep an extra 15 minutes to get 6.2 hours of sleep instead of less. So I take toll roads. But I hate it, and don't buy into all the propaganda they feed Marriotts as to the advantages.

I am all for the ghost idea of making a road toll to pay it off, but when do we see that anymore? It was just a ploy to make it easier to have permanent toll roads. Politics 101.

Probably, but it's still the only solution in San Antonio.


What we really need, what we have needed for about 100 years, is an energy efficient mass transit system in the state of Texas. This state of ours is not unlike a small country, with big cities stretching throughout its land. How fucking awesome would it be if you could take a state of the art monorail from san antonio to dallas to go to someone's graduation ceremony? Or if I took one from dallas to austin to spend a day or two with a buddy?

But it'll never happen. It should but it wont because while it benefits the majority of the Texas population it does not benefit those who are in control, pulling the politicans strings and guzzling all of our money not unlike our vehicles that guzzle gas waiting in traffic, sitting there, wasting valuable time "like lemmings into shiny metal boxes" as Sting says in the song Synchronicity.

I couldn't agree more, but we can place most of the thanks for that with Southwest Airlines. They were and continue to be the largest lobbyists against this concept, which really isn't that difficult to understand why.

[Useruser666]

I am absolutely against any and all toll roads anywhere in the San Antonio area.
Why spend money on roads that can not be utilized by everyone? Why take from the pool of available labor and resources to build such roads? Why tear up the existing infrastructure for them? It makes no sense whatsoever. Only people who can afford to blow cash on having a personal highway built for them can stand behind this honestly. Toll roads are not good for the average person (read majority).

[johnsmith]

Why take from the pool of available labor and resources to build such roads?


:lol Dude, did you forget what city this? Labor isn't difficult to find.

[T Park]

It isn't?

SA has a 3.6 percent jobless rate.

The economy is great, despite what Barack Obama wants to tell you.


But, Spurswoman makes the great point, all toll roads do are kill the low income familys who go to work.

Who said anything about raising the gas tax?

I call BS on the taxes not being enough. There are plenty of funds out there.

Reallocate from projects that aren't needed, and make adjustments.

Fuck paying money for roads, that tax money goes to.

[leemajors]

let's take some money from schools and put it into building roads. cut those art programs further, they're worthless.

[SpursWoman]

Who said anything about raising the gas tax?


I was reading about several alternatives/sources for funding, and that was one of them. Up to $.25/gallon if I'm not mistaken.

I'd support toll roads before I'd support that ... toll roads you can get around, but Via doesn't come anywhere near me. :fro

[T Park]

What were other things other than toll roads and gas tax I hadn't seen it.

[Kori Ellis]

That looks like a total nightmare. :lol

I live on 1604 (the access road is the only way out of my neighborhood so far) ... so as long as there's a way for me not to have to pay a toll just to go get a gallon of milk, I don't really care. Although the construction will definitely suck ass for a long, long time.

I'm not up to date on the whole toll roll thing, but won't everyone have the option of using the untolled part of the road too? Why would you need to get on the toll road just to go get milk?

Forgive my ignorance on the subject but since I don't drive to work, I haven't paid enough attention to the whole idea.

[SpursWoman]

I'm not up to date on the whole toll roll thing, but won't everyone have the option of using the untolled part of the road too? Why would you need to get on the toll road just to go get milk?

Forgive my ignorance on the subject but since I don't drive to work, I haven't paid enough attention to the whole idea.


My point was, since I live on 1604 and it's how I get around, as long as there's a way for me to get *anywhere* without having to use a toll road and doesn't cause a major inconvenience doing so, I don't really care. If access roads are the only alternative, how congested are those going to be?

I heard Wurzbach Parkway was another target for tolls. Which is how I currently get to work. :(

[Extra Stout]

$2,000 to $4,000 a year on toll roads? :wtf

I'm a heavy user of Houston toll roads, and I'm not even spending $800 a year in tolls. That's with Houston toll roads being among the most expensive in America outside the Eastern Seaboard.

Maybe if you're driving into Manhattan every day you pay that much.

[SpursWoman]

I got that number from a psycho-anti-toll road website. :spin

[Kori Ellis]

My point was, since I live on 1604 and it's how I get around, as long as there's a way for me to get *anywhere* without having to use a toll road I don't really care. If access roads are the only alternative, how congested are those going to be?

I heard Wurzbach Parkway was another target for tolls. Which is how currently get to work. :(

But I thought that even if a section of the highway or parkway was tolled that there would be an untolled strip right next to it. So you'd always have the option not to be on the toll road (and not be on the access road).

Is that not correct?

[SpursWoman]

I'm not sure ... I was trying to figure out the configuration from those videos and I'm not sure how it'll work. Especially going through the interchanges.

If there are going to be non-tolled lanes, then besides the major crappage of living in a construction zone for the next 10 years it's not that big a deal, then.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not sure ... I was trying to figure out the configuration from those videos and I'm not sure how it'll work. Especially going through the interchanges.

If there are going to be non-tolled lanes, then besides the major crappage of living in a construction zone for the next 10 years it's not that big a deal, then.

I'm not sure either, that's why I asked.

I guess we need Buddy Holly :lol

[Extra Stout]

In the past, building these roads would be covered just by raising the gas tax. But, gas already is expensive enough that it affects people's vehicle choices and the amount of gas they use.

So, our next alternatives are tolling the roads, or taxing people based upon the miles they drive.

In my perfect world, road construction would be covered by bonds paid off by tolls, and maintenance would be paid for by the vehicles that damage the roads, which would mean that taxes on commerical trucks pay 95% of all maintenance costs.

But the Latin American-style corporate whores that replaced the free-market conservatives in the Republican Party aren't going to tax businesses like that -- they will make private citizens subsidize the businesses.

[Extra Stout]

I'm not sure ... I was trying to figure out the configuration from those videos and I'm not sure how it'll work. Especially going through the interchanges.

If there are going to be non-tolled lanes, then besides the major crappage of living in a construction zone for the next 10 years it's not that big a deal, then.
The interchange at 151 is questionable. The way that video shows it, the frontage road veers onto 151. Unless that is a free interchange, drivers are forced to pay a toll to continue north on 1604.

Having major highway interchanges with flyover ramps free and maintained by the state is not unusual, so perhaps that is the plan.

[SpursWoman]

I think another alternative for funding that I read was an increase in the yearly vehicle registration renewals. Which currently are around $50-100 or whatever, but to raise them another $100 or so. Aren't these registrations considerably higher in other states, like California?

[Kori Ellis]

I think another alternative for funding that I read was an increase in the yearly vehicle registration renewals. Which currently are around $50-100 or whatever, but to raise them another $100 or so. Aren't these registrations considerably higher in other states, like California?

Car registration in California is based on how much your car is worth. Back in the day I paid $700 one year to register a car. My friend paid $1500 annually to register her Mercedes.

[SpursWoman]

I think that's how it works here, but at a much lower rate. My $25K truck is only $65. And it's expired, as of tomorrow. :oops :lol

[T Park]

I think another alternative for funding that I read was an increase in the yearly vehicle registration renewals. Which currently are around $50-100 or whatever, but to raise them another $100 or so. Aren't these registrations considerably higher in other states, like California?


Yeah that was one of the big things that got Grey out Davis booted out of office from california (What a sweet day that was)

He doubled, or tripled, I can't remember, the already rediculous car registration fee.

I'd be for paying a little more in registration fees, like 50 bucks.


In my perfect world, road construction would be covered by bonds paid off by tolls, and maintenance would be paid for by the vehicles that damage the roads, which would mean that taxes on commerical trucks pay 95% of all maintenance costs.

So tax the truckers, and raise the cost of living even more.

Makes sense.

[Extra Stout]

So tax the truckers, and raise the cost of living even more.

Makes sense.
It's all part of the cost of living anyway, whether in tolls, gas taxes, mileage taxes, or shipping costs for businesses.

Pay me now or pay me later. You don't get it for free.

[T Park]

Cool, put more truckers out of work.

Nice idea :tu

[johnsmith]

Cool, put more truckers out of work.

Nice idea :tu


They wouldn't go out of business, they'd just drastically raise the cost of their services and then everything you buy would increase in price. That would be sweet.



All this discussion about toll roads cracks me up though because at the end of the day, they are going to be built in San Antonio, and there isn't anything you can do about it.

I for one will cheer when they are complete.

By the way, the middle lanes are tolled, the outside lanes aren't and the frontage roads are improved.

[Shelly]

Car registration in California is based on how much your car is worth. Back in the day I paid $700 one year to register a car. My friend paid $1500 annually to register her Mercedes.

It's gone down a lot. Still higher than here, but not nearly as bad as it was. I just renewed my dad's registraton for his Mercedes (work) and it was $300 something.

[SpursWoman]

By the way, the middle lanes are tolled, the outside lanes aren't and the frontage roads are improved.

That doesn't sound too bad, then. But I'm certainly not looking forward to the construction.


*shrugs*

[Extra Stout]

Cool, put more truckers out of work.

Nice idea :tu
Businesses use too many highly-inefficient trucks out of sheer convenience, when there are lower-cost alternative modes of transportation that require just a modicum of competent planning to use.

Does it put some truckers out of work? Yes, just like the car put a lot of buggy manufactuters out of work.

[Extra Stout]

They wouldn't go out of business, they'd just drastically raise the cost of their services and then everything you buy would increase in price. That would be sweet.
Nah, businesses would use more rail and barge to transport materials in bulk.

[KEDA]

TPark, you DO understand that there will be a way to get where you are going WITHOUT paying the toll, correct?

If you do not wish to pay said toll, simply stay on the feeder road.

Im not so sure why it is so hard for people to understand this, there is going to be a free route for people to take, if people want to pay let them!

I will gladly pay for the 281 Toll road.

[bendmz]

I am a believer of toll roads.....
last month I went to Houston International Airport via IH 10 to 610 N to 45 N @ 1800. from the time I hit Katy, it took 75 minutes to get to the airport.
last week I made the same trip except this time I took the Beltway.......
22 minutes and only cost bout 3 bucks.......
need I say more... :clap

[TheWriter]

Just to clear things up the lanes that are currently free to drive will remain free to drive (although they will be rebuilt and moved from the current configuration) even once the toll roads are built.

So, when all is said and done you will have the option to either drive for free or volunteer your own money and use the toll lanes.

And fyi, FUCK the SA Toll Party. Their leader Terri Hall who just moved to Bulverde/Spring Branch 3 years ago from California who is a stay at home mother who home schools her children.

She helps spread mistruths and exaggerates everything. That woman tries to speak for all of San Antonio when she's only lived here 3 years and hardly ever has to drive 281 or 1604.

[hello13]

Just to clear things up the lanes that are currently free to drive will remain free to drive (although they will be rebuilt and moved from the current configuration) even once the toll roads are built.

So, when all is said and done you will have the option to either drive for free or volunteer your own money and use the toll lanes.
exactly

no reason not to support toll roads.

the only people who oppose toll roads are those who oppose development


guess what folx,

SA is not a small city, it will never be a small city again, and there is nothing you can do to change that

DEAL WITH IT

[marini martini]

Tolls or Trolls????? :dizzy At least I know the back roads of S.A. :toast

[mookie2001]

listen to this guy tpark, he knows what hes talking about


on this issue and immigration- tpark is a voice of reason

[Kori Ellis]

Just to clear things up the lanes that are currently free to drive will remain free to drive (although they will be rebuilt and moved from the current configuration) even once the toll roads are built.

So, when all is said and done you will have the option to either drive for free or volunteer your own money and use the toll lanes.



Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

[scott]

You guys still don't get it. The tolls are not a way to raise money to build the roads... they are a way to reduce congestion. You can either 1) stay on the free road where it is packed or 2) voluntarily choose to pay a small fee to get where you want faster.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

TPark, you DO understand that there will be a way to get where you are going WITHOUT paying the toll, correct?

If you do not wish to pay said toll, simply stay on the feeder road.

Im not so sure why it is so hard for people to understand this, there is going to be a free route for people to take, if people want to pay let them!

I will gladly pay for the 281 Toll road.

The reason being not all stretches of toll road have an acompanying feeder. Maybe ya'll are just lucky in SA...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You guys still don't get it. The tolls are not a way to raise money to build the roads... they are a way to reduce congestion. You can either 1) stay on the free road where it is packed or 2) voluntarily choose to pay a small fee to get where you want faster.

Why is this so difficult to understand?


The only legit bicker is that the toll road movement is blatantly an appendage of the movement that is dissolving our soveriegnity, which has been voiced by a few of us in this very thread.

[Nbadan]

What Scott, or no one else seems to understand is if the foreign-owned company your willingly giving your roads too defaults on it's toll-road construction loans, it's the tax-payer who is gonna get stuck with the bill, with no funding to pay for it, and studies have shown that it will be difficult if not impossible to meet these long-term obligations with $3.00 gas because people won't use the toll as much. So there is a possibility that they could use tax money to pay for these roads and you would still have to pay a toll to use them. How fucked up is that? The tax-payers take all the risks and Perry and his lobbyists laugh all the way to the bank.

Also, these toll-roads will compete for scarce resources like concrete, engineers, right-of-ways, and such, driving the prices for non-toll roads higher too. It will become a self-perpetuating cycle of run-away road construction and maintenance costs.

Future expansion plans will make existing free roadways, like Wurz. Parkway, toll roads. Why should we have to pay for roads that are already paid for with tax money?

Finally, TX's own funded studies have shown that all we have to do is index the gas tax to avoid toll roads altogether, a far cheaper costs for average drivers than tolls.

[hello13]

i dont care how they do it.

taxes, tolls, whatever

the traffic congestion needs to be eased

[Buddy Holly]

What is this foreign-owned company nonsense? The Alamo RMA will own and operate the toll roads not any foreign company.

www.alamorma.org

[KEDA]

I dont give a shit if its foreign owned companies (which I seriously doubt), or if its good ol' H B Zachary. Get the shit done ASAP.


Hell, Ill wear a turban to make the companies feel like they are working at home!

[mookie2001]

when?, anywhere has building more roads ever been a long term solution to traffic problems?

[mookie2001]

Future expansion plans will make existing free roadways, like Wurz. Parkway, toll roads. Why should we have to pay for roads that are already paid for with tax money?that way youre being taxed on the gas you use, the car you bought, your registration, your inspection, insurance, the roads youre driving on, and the roads youre driving on

makes people feel wealthy

[SpursWoman]

Just to clear things up the lanes that are currently free to drive will remain free to drive (although they will be rebuilt and moved from the current configuration) even once the toll roads are built.


Cool ... that's all I needed to know. :tu

[scott]

The only legit bicker is that the toll road movement is blatantly an appendage of the movement that is dissolving our soveriegnity, which has been voiced by a few of us in this very thread.

God I hope you are kidding, because that is hilarious.

[scott]

What Scott, or no one else seems to understand is if the foreign-owned company your willingly giving your roads too defaults on it's toll-road construction loans, it's the tax-payer who is gonna get stuck with the bill, with no funding to pay for it, and studies have shown that it will be difficult if not impossible to meet these long-term obligations with $3.00 gas because people won't use the toll as much. So there is a possibility that they could use tax money to pay for these roads and you would still have to pay a toll to use them. How fucked up is that? The tax-payers take all the risks and Perry and his lobbyists laugh all the way to the bank.

So basically what you are saying is... that you still don't get it.

Now we've gone from the false "but we already paid for the roads!" argument to the "it's a foreign company!" argument. Where are these studies that show a toll won't be able to pay off the original cost of construction if gas is $3/gallon? People will continue to use automobilies, regardless of what they are powered by, and thus the demand for use of tolls is independent of the demand for gasoline. The US and the rest of the world have already begun to shift away from conventional gasoline, and that trend is unlikely to stop so long as gasoline prices are high. Unless we go to flying cars and everyone decides they don't want to live on the northside anymore, demand for use of the toll road won't be an issue.

It doesn't matter if it a foreign company or a domestic one, if that company defaults on it's loan, then someone else will have to pick up the tab. Congrats on your "duh!" moment of the day, Dan. It doesn't matter if they are based in Spain or in San Antonio - it all works out the same.


Also, these toll-roads will compete for scarce resources like concrete, engineers, right-of-ways, and such, driving the prices for non-toll roads higher too. It will become a self-perpetuating cycle of run-away road construction and maintenance costs.

Um... ANY roads will compete for scarce resources, regardless of how they are paid for. Engineers and concrete won't suddenly be in more supply if the government announces they will pay for the roads with some indexed gas tax. The self-perpetuating cycle is a product of your own complaining nature.

On another note, private industry have proved TIME AND TIME AGAIN far more efficient in reducing the costs of... well, anything. Government entities are the most inefficient organizations at construction because they have absolutely no incentive to reduce costs. A cost overrun of 50% or a timeline slipping by 2 years at a government agency results in no firings, just another check being sent from the state office. The government paying for the roads will increase the general costs of roads much more than a private company entering the market place.


Future expansion plans will make existing free roadways, like Wurz. Parkway, toll roads. Why should we have to pay for roads that are already paid for with tax money?

Any road that is currently "free" (nothing none of them are free, you just have to pay per use) SHOULD NOT be turned into a toll road. There is one decent argument you have. Doing that forces consumers who have made previous economic decisions (where to live, for example) into a higher level of expenditure. Smart toll-road planning leaves free lanes and provides toll lanes for those people who value getting where they want to go.


Finally, TX's own funded studies have shown that all we have to do is index the gas tax to avoid toll roads altogether, a far cheaper costs for average drivers than tolls.

Indexing the gas tax is one way to fund roads... you are still paying for it exactly the same. Whether you pay for it when you get on a toll ramp (which you have an OPTION not to do) or you pay for it with every gallon you put in your tank of gas, you are still paying for it! What are these "far cheaper costs"? Engineers, asphalt and concrete aren't going to get cheaper because you index the gas tax either. The cost is the same. Indexing backers like yourself also like to point out that "we can just index the gas tax, we don't have to raise it..." - well you can't raise MORE money by leaving the tax the SAME! They aren't going to index it downward!

But, as I've repeated, the tolls aren't meant to find a way to pay for the road. They accomplish that, but they also are a means of reducing traffic flow. The equilibrium price of the toll should be where the quantity of use on the toll road leaves a healthy flow of traffic as an alternative to sitting in a parking lot (like 1604 is today). Which leads me to...


when?, anywhere has building more roads ever been a long term solution to traffic problems?

Building more free roads has NEVER proven a long term solution. Economics 101, so long as a public good is "free" to use, it will be subject to overcrowding, or in other words, the equilibrium quantity exchanged will be less than the socially optimal quantity exchanged. (This problem remains when ALL roads are tolled at the same rate).

The idea of toll is to provide choice. You are welcome to sit in traffic all day, just like you do now. No one will take that choice away from you. However, if you want to pay just a small fee, you can skip all the traffic.

That small fee discourages use from some buyers, which is precisely how traffic on the toll roads remains managable and presents a value to the potential consumer. If the toll roads are too cheap, that is if the value they provide is greater than the toll, then they will be overcrowded and they've failed. If the toll is too expensive, then the road will be undercrowded and someone has paid to construct a useless road. This cannot take place in an "all-free" road environment.

As for your question "when", just look at any major city that has supplemented free roads with toll roads. Dallas is a great example. No transportation solution is "long term" however, because of population growth. Even New York city's subway system (which I'm sure mass transit is what you are getting at) is subject to overcrowding because the use of it keeps growing. Toll roads are not a permanent solution, but there isn't one. The long term solution is a phased one. You start with toll roads in the outer reaches (which also have the effect of reducing sprawl as the perceived cost of living in the suburbs increases). Then you phase in mass transit solutions in the inner areas of the city, eventually reaching the outer. Again, see Dallas. Dallas' metro is over 3x larger than San Antonio's however.

[johnsmith]

So basically what you are saying is... that you still don't get it.

Now we've gone from the false "but we already paid for the roads!" argument to the "it's a foreign company!" argument. Where are these studies that show a toll won't be able to pay off the original cost of construction if gas is $3/gallon? People will continue to use automobilies, regardless of what they are powered by, and thus the demand for use of tolls is independent of the demand for gasoline. The US and the rest of the world have already begun to shift away from conventional gasoline, and that trend is unlikely to stop so long as gasoline prices are high. Unless we go to flying cars and everyone decides they don't want to live on the northside anymore, demand for use of the toll road won't be an issue.

It doesn't matter if it a foreign company or a domestic one, if that company defaults on it's loan, then someone else will have to pick up the tab. Congrats on your "duh!" moment of the day, Dan. It doesn't matter if they are based in Spain or in San Antonio - it all works out the same.



Um... ANY roads will compete for scarce resources, regardless of how they are paid for. Engineers and concrete won't suddenly be in more supply if the government announces they will pay for the roads with some indexed gas tax. The self-perpetuating cycle is a product of your own complaining nature.

On another note, private industry have proved TIME AND TIME AGAIN far more efficient in reducing the costs of... well, anything. Government entities are the most inefficient organizations at construction because they have absolutely no incentive to reduce costs. A cost overrun of 50% or a timeline slipping by 2 years at a government agency results in no firings, just another check being sent from the state office. The government paying for the roads will increase the general costs of roads much more than a private company entering the market place.



Any road that is currently "free" (nothing none of them are free, you just have to pay per use) SHOULD NOT be turned into a toll road. There is one decent argument you have. Doing that forces consumers who have made previous economic decisions (where to live, for example) into a higher level of expenditure. Smart toll-road planning leaves free lanes and provides toll lanes for those people who value getting where they want to go.



Indexing the gas tax is one way to fund roads... you are still paying for it exactly the same. Whether you pay for it when you get on a toll ramp (which you have an OPTION not to do) or you pay for it with every gallon you put in your tank of gas, you are still paying for it! What are these "far cheaper costs"? Engineers, asphalt and concrete aren't going to get cheaper because you index the gas tax either. The cost is the same. Indexing backers like yourself also like to point out that "we can just index the gas tax, we don't have to raise it..." - well you can't raise MORE money by leaving the tax the SAME! They aren't going to index it downward!

But, as I've repeated, the tolls aren't meant to find a way to pay for the road. They accomplish that, but they also are a means of reducing traffic flow. The equilibrium price of the toll should be where the quantity of use on the toll road leaves a healthy flow of traffic as an alternative to sitting in a parking lot (like 1604 is today). Which leads me to...



Building more free roads has NEVER proven a long term solution. Economics 101, so long as a public good is "free" to use, it will be subject to overcrowding, or in other words, the equilibrium quantity exchanged will be less than the socially optimal quantity exchanged. (This problem remains when ALL roads are tolled at the same rate).

The idea of toll is to provide choice. You are welcome to sit in traffic all day, just like you do now. No one will take that choice away from you. However, if you want to pay just a small fee, you can skip all the traffic.

That small fee discourages use from some buyers, which is precisely how traffic on the toll roads remains managable and presents a value to the potential consumer. If the toll roads are too cheap, that is if the value they provide is greater than the toll, then they will be overcrowded and they've failed. If the toll is too expensive, then the road will be undercrowded and someone has paid to construct a useless road. This cannot take place in an "all-free" road environment.

As for your question "when", just look at any major city that has supplemented free roads with toll roads. Dallas is a great example. No transportation solution is "long term" however, because of population growth. Even New York city's subway system (which I'm sure mass transit is what you are getting at) is subject to overcrowding because the use of it keeps growing. Toll roads are not a permanent solution, but there isn't one. The long term solution is a phased one. You start with toll roads in the outer reaches (which also have the effect of reducing sprawl as the perceived cost of living in the suburbs increases). Then you phase in mass transit solutions in the inner areas of the city, eventually reaching the outer. Again, see Dallas. Dallas' metro is over 3x larger than San Antonio's however.


Good post and thank you for pointing out that Dan knows absolutely nothing about the construction business.

Dan, you do understand that when a company decides to do any job, they must get insurance on said job first. Meaning, the insurance company flips the bill if the company goes under.

Furthermore, most of the funding for this job is coming from the two companies themselves.

Learn your facts Dan.

[Flea]

Just to clear things up the lanes that are currently free to drive will remain free to drive (although they will be rebuilt and moved from the current configuration) even once the toll roads are built.

So, when all is said and done you will have the option to either drive for free or volunteer your own money and use the toll lanes.

And fyi, FUCK the SA Toll Party. Their leader Terri Hall who just moved to Bulverde/Spring Branch 3 years ago from California who is a stay at home mother who home schools her children.

She helps spread mistruths and exaggerates everything. That woman tries to speak for all of San Antonio when she's only lived here 3 years and hardly ever has to drive 281 or 1604.


I am a stay at home mom who lives off of Borgfeld road and I use 281 all the time. Everytime I am stuck in traffic on 281 North of 1604 I think of how much I would love to have a toll road. Many people out here will choose the convenience of the toll which in turn will reduce the congestion on the access roads for those who choose not to use it.

[hello13]

I dont give a shit if its foreign owned companies (which I seriously doubt), or if its good ol' H B Zachary. Get the shit done ASAP.


Hell, Ill wear a turban to make the companies feel like they are working at home!
:clap

[hello13]

Good post and thank you for pointing out that Dan knows absolutely nothing about the construction business.

Dan, you do understand that when a company decides to do any job, they must get insurance on said job first. Meaning, the insurance company flips the bill if the company goes under.

Furthermore, most of the funding for this job is coming from the two companies themselves.

Learn your facts Dan.
:clap :clap

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

i am correct on all those assumptions

the bottom line is tollroads, foreign ownership, north american union are neocons dream

they count on prowar people who like 24 and have OnStar* to support this shit

Talk about painting with a broad brush.

I used to be against toll roads, but having lived in Dallas for two years I've come to appreciate the convenience. That's what you're paying for - convenience.

I hate the idea of the TTC and of Cintra owning it, it's total bullshit and if there was a way for it to be done I'd love to see Perry booted out of office, he's whoring out the state of Texas for some backroom deal.

North American Union is also a farce. If you think neocons are all for it, then explain why the illegal immigration reform/amnesty shit got shot down for good this week. It's because conservatives everywhere made it known that if it passed, everyone in D.C. would be held accountable and be out of office the next time they were up for election.

It doesn't really matter which party it is, the power players don't feel accountable to the American public. I'm not sure what the solution is but those fucks in D.C. no longer represent the people that elect them.

And the light rail system would be a godsend here in the state of Texas, but no one with a fucking clue or the balls to lead the charge for it is anywhere near the leadership of this state (on either side of the aisle).

BTW, lol @ Dan trying to tie gas prices and tolls together on this. You do realize that by taking toll roads, paying your $1.25 or whatever, and turning a two hour parking lot commute into a 30 minute jaunt home, you just covered your tolls with your savings in fuel burned, right?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

when?, anywhere has building more roads ever been a long term solution to traffic problems?

Come up to north Dallas. Maybe you'll get a clue.

[braeden0613]

North American Union is also a farce. If you think neocons are all for it, then explain why the illegal immigration reform/amnesty shit got shot down for good this week. It's because conservatives everywhere made it known that if it passed, everyone in D.C. would be held accountable and be out of office the next time they were up for election.

Just because some neocons dont support it per se, doesnt mean that they wont change their minds or it wont happen. The Council of Foreign Relations even called for “the creation by 2010 of a North American community.... Its boundaries will be defined by a common external tariff and an outer security perimeter within which the movement of people, products, and capital will be legal, orderly, and safe. Its goal will be to guarantee a free, secure, just, and prosperous North America.”

[Nbadan]

On another note, private industry have proved TIME AND TIME AGAIN far more efficient in reducing the costs of... well, anything.


:lol

Tell that to Californian's who donated to the Enron tax and still suffered roving black-outs. CPS isn't privately owned, but yet it's one of the most efficient utility companies in Texas, hell, the whole U.S....companies are moving here because of our cheap rates....

[Nbadan]

It doesn't matter if it a foreign company or a domestic one, if that company defaults on it's loan, then someone else will have to pick up the tab. Congrats on your "duh!" moment of the day, Dan. It doesn't matter if they are based in Spain or in San Antonio - it all works out the same.

Yeah Scott, private investors are just gonna throw hand-fulls of money along with gum drops and lollipops at a venture that couldn't even pay off it's loans. that'll happen....

[Nbadan]

Um... ANY roads will compete for scarce resources, regardless of how they are paid for. Engineers and concrete won't suddenly be in more supply if the government announces they will pay for the roads with some indexed gas tax. The self-perpetuating cycle is a product of your own complaining nature.

Your an economist, right Scott? Destroying our existing 4 lane freeway and rebuilding it into a 4 lane tollway with cement barriers and complex entrances and exits and with 4 lane freeway to the outside is a WASTE of taxpayer money and scarce resources compared to the less invasive, more affordable option of simply adding the two originally planned non-toll lanes down the existing median using gas taxes or bonds.

[Nbadan]

BTW, lol @ Dan trying to tie gas prices and tolls together on this. You do realize that by taking toll roads, paying your $1.25 or whatever, and turning a two hour parking lot commute into a 30 minute jaunt home, you just covered your tolls with your savings in fuel burned, right?

$1.25 for tolls? Think again....try 29 cents per mile on 1604 to $1.50 per mile in Austin...

[Nbadan]

Whether you pay for it when you get on a toll ramp (which you have an OPTION not to do) or you pay for it with every gallon you put in your tank of gas, you are still paying for it! What are these "far cheaper costs"

Toll roads are a incentive for people to drive more, use more gas, indexed gas-tax is a incentive to get people to drive a little less and still finanace more news roads in the process.

[Nbadan]

Cool ... that's all I needed to know. :tu

SW, your access road now would be the toll-free interstate, so if that backed up (which it will, daily), your SOL...

[SAtoDallas]

well, from having driven on the toll roads in Orange County, CA--they're a godsend!
Maybe the tolls are different there, cause the North Dallas Tollway is always a nightmare, the Bush isn't that bad but that's because it doesn't really go anywhere.

[angel_luv]

Every time I see this thread title on the front page, I read it as Video of the 1604 Trolls :lol

[scott]

:lol

Tell that to Californian's who donated to the Enron tax and still suffered roving black-outs. CPS isn't privately owned, but yet it's one of the most efficient utility companies in Texas, hell, the whole U.S....companies are moving here because of our cheap rates....

Wow! You pointed out an example of extreme corporate corruption, I guess that totally means that government entities are more efficient than private ones. Venezuela should be the next economic superpower any day now! :rolleyes

As for CPS, yes it is INEXPENSIVE, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily efficient (the question is, could it be even less expensive if under different management). The last major comprehensive study of the efficiency of utility providers in the US didn't even have CPS in the top 100.

http://www.pur.com/pubs/2492.cfm

With that said, CPS has changed a lot since thing, and I do think they are one of the most efficient in the country, but that doesn't disprove the notion of private industry being more efficient than government run organizations. In reality, the idea of private industry being more efficient is a fact on the same level of evolution. You are free to disagree if you like, but it puts in a certain community when you do.


Yeah Scott, private investors are just gonna throw hand-fulls of money along with gum drops and lollipops at a venture that couldn't even pay off it's loans. that'll happen....

They sure as hell will when they can acquire the assets at a fraction of the original cost. The economics would be very compelling for a private company to come in. You act like this doesn't happen all the time with companies being purchased out of bankruptcy proceedings.

Even then, its an unlikely scenario to begin with. This isn't the Buddy Holly of toll roads proposing a project like this, it's companies who have done it before and know what they are doing. They've done their due diligence and the risks, while still present, are much more subdued than you seem to think.


Your an economist, right Scott? Destroying our existing 4 lane freeway and rebuilding it into a 4 lane tollway with cement barriers and complex entrances and exits and with 4 lane freeway to the outside is a WASTE of taxpayer money and scarce resources compared to the less invasive, more affordable option of simply adding the two originally planned non-toll lanes down the existing median using gas taxes or bonds.

1) Your original post detailed with the ownership of the freeway and how a private (and foreign) firm would result in this never ending cycle of upward costs. My response was that it doesn't matter who owns them, the same materials are required

2) Now you are talking about the design of the freeway. Sure, a different design is required than just adding two lanes in the existing median. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not those lanes or tolled. The reason this option is not being pursued is simple: two more lanes is not sufficient to handle the traffic load, especially if they are not being tolled. As soon as they are open, people who currently avoid 1604 because it is too crowded will immediately jump on to the point where it is just as crowded as it was before. It goes back to the basic economics of any public good. A good that has no marginal cost to be used will always be subject to overcrowding.

3) While a debate over the design of the roads is important, it is outside of the purview of a toll road discussion. The incremental costs to barrier off the tolls (to avoid people "cheating" the system) is so relatively small that the effect on the markets for things like concrete will be insignificant.


$1.25 for tolls? Think again....try 29 cents per mile on 1604 to $1.50 per mile in Austin...

Link?


Toll roads are a incentive for people to drive more, use more gas, indexed gas-tax is a incentive to get people to drive a little less and still finanace more news roads in the process.

Toll roads are an incentive for people to drive more? Since when? How will having the option to pay MORE for something encourage you to do more of an existing alternative.

The only part of this point is that an increased (call it indexed or whatever you want) gas tax would reduce comsumption of gasoline - but not by much. motor fuels have proven in the short term to be highly inelastic (record prices, yet continual strong demand growth in recent years), and prices are already at a high enough level to incentivize R&D into alternative fuels. I agree that a higher gas tax would help push that along, but very minimally.

So, if reducing demand for fuels is not a major result... then it must be about how we finance the roads. Like I've said... oh, 3 times now, toll roads SHOULD NOT be about how to finance a road, but how to reduce congestion, which they have proven to do. The financing arguement is another all together - but with gas tax funding you are just creating a negative externality and shifting the cost of the new roads on to people who will never use them. Why should the residents of the Southside pay for Stone Oak's new highway? With a toll road, the costs are firmly placed on the people who wish to pay for it.


SW, your access road now would be the toll-free interstate, so if that backed up (which it will, daily), your SOL...

So basically for SW it will be like it is now... except she'll have an option to bypass all that. And somehow you think this is a negative change in her life.

Not that I'm expecting you to grasp this basic logic.

[johnsmith]

Wow! You pointed out an example of extreme corporate corruption, I guess that totally means that government entities are more efficient than private ones. Venezuela should be the next economic superpower any day now! :rolleyes

As for CPS, yes it is INEXPENSIVE, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily efficient (the question is, could it be even less expensive if under different management). The last major comprehensive study of the efficiency of utility providers in the US didn't even have CPS in the top 100.

http://www.pur.com/pubs/2492.cfm

With that said, CPS has changed a lot since thing, and I do think they are one of the most efficient in the country, but that doesn't disprove the notion of private industry being more efficient than government run organizations. In reality, the idea of private industry being more efficient is a fact on the same level of evolution. You are free to disagree if you like, but it puts in a certain community when you do.



They sure as hell will when they can acquire the assets at a fraction of the original cost. The economics would be very compelling for a private company to come in. You act like this doesn't happen all the time with companies being purchased out of bankruptcy proceedings.

Even then, its an unlikely scenario to begin with. This isn't the Buddy Holly of toll roads proposing a project like this, it's companies who have done it before and know what they are doing. They've done their due diligence and the risks, while still present, are much more subdued than you seem to think.



1) Your original post detailed with the ownership of the freeway and how a private (and foreign) firm would result in this never ending cycle of upward costs. My response was that it doesn't matter who owns them, the same materials are required

2) Now you are talking about the design of the freeway. Sure, a different design is required than just adding two lanes in the existing median. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not those lanes or tolled. The reason this option is not being pursued is simple: two more lanes is not sufficient to handle the traffic load, especially if they are not being tolled. As soon as they are open, people who currently avoid 1604 because it is too crowded will immediately jump on to the point where it is just as crowded as it was before. It goes back to the basic economics of any public good. A good that has no marginal cost to be used will always be subject to overcrowding.

3) While a debate over the design of the roads is important, it is outside of the purview of a toll road discussion. The incremental costs to barrier off the tolls (to avoid people "cheating" the system) is so relatively small that the effect on the markets for things like concrete will be insignificant.



Link?



Toll roads are an incentive for people to drive more? Since when? How will having the option to pay MORE for something encourage you to do more of an existing alternative.

The only part of this point is that an increased (call it indexed or whatever you want) gas tax would reduce comsumption of gasoline - but not by much. motor fuels have proven in the short term to be highly inelastic (record prices, yet continual strong demand growth in recent years), and prices are already at a high enough level to incentivize R&D into alternative fuels. I agree that a higher gas tax would help push that along, but very minimally.

So, if reducing demand for fuels is not a major result... then it must be about how we finance the roads. Like I've said... oh, 3 times now, toll roads SHOULD NOT be about how to finance a road, but how to reduce congestion, which they have proven to do. The financing arguement is another all together - but with gas tax funding you are just creating a negative externality and shifting the cost of the new roads on to people who will never use them. Why should the residents of the Southside pay for Stone Oak's new highway? With a toll road, the costs are firmly placed on the people who wish to pay for it.



So basically for SW it will be like it is now... except she'll have an option to bypass all that. And somehow you think this is a negative change in her life.

Not that I'm expecting you to grasp this basic logic.


While the above has wonderfully managed to "virtually bitch slap" Dan, I'll save you some time:

The idea of tolling 1604 is supported by a republican, therefore Dan hates it, won't listen to facts about it, and will throw out as many shocking statistics (albeit mostly false) in order to try and persuade anyone that will take the time to read it.

Having said that, Dan is in the minority and the roads are going to be built, I promise.

[mookie2001]

be honest.

do you think a person FOR tollroads is more or less likely to support the war in iraq than a person against tollroads?


WHY do you think thats so?

[scott]

be honest.

do you think a person FOR tollroads is more or less likely to support the war in iraq than a person against tollroads?


WHY do you think thats so?

Be honest...

Do you think anyone with half a brain fails to see what a tool you are?

Why do you think thats so?

[mookie2001]

do you think a person FOR tollroads is more or less likely to support the war in iraq than a person against tollroads?

[scott]

Some good reading for those interested in more of the real debate behind this matter, as opposed to pointing jabber such as mookie's.

Study of Congestion Pricing (read tolls) by a Cal Berkeley Civil Engineering student
http://www.sfbayite.org/events/Mtg_2006_04-20/2006_Chiu-Fai-Tam_ITE-Paper.pdf

Phased in implementation
http://www.reason.org/ps170.html

A primer to congestion pricing
http://www.calccit.org/itsdecision/serv_and_tech/Congestion_pricing/congestion_pricing_summary.html

Principles of congestion pricing
http://www.hhh.umn.edu/centers/slp/projects/conpric/

[scott]

A good FAQ from the University of Minnesota


FACTS & FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Value Pricing Is About Managing Congestion
The point is not just to impose tolls, but to use tolls selectively to reduce traffic on congested highways during peak travel times. During the evening rush, 25% or more of the cars on the road are not people coming home from work. A peak-period toll would encourage some of these discretionary travelers to make their trips off-peak, or to use less congested routes. Because congestion grows exponentially as roads near capacity, even a small reduction in the number of cars on the road can substantially reduce congestion-related delays and crashes.

There Are No Toll Booths
Electronic toll collection, usually through an inexpensive windshield-mounted transponder, is a mature technology in use throughout the world. Tolls are subtracted from a debit card in the transponder—no record is kept of who travels where. All this is done at normal driving speeds—manual toll booths would stop traffic and thus miss the whole point of using value pricing, which is to make traffic move faster.

Value Pricing Complements Transit And Highway Expansion
Selective tolls used alone can reduce traffic during peak periods, but their effectiveness can be greatly enhanced when the revenues are used to improve the system by improving transit and other options, and by highway expansion where appropriate. By providing a financial incentive to use transit, peak-period tolls could provide both a revenue source and a market for transit, neither of which might be as firm otherwise. And by creating a source of location-specific funding, tolls could accelerate the construction of highway expansions that otherwise could be delayed for years waiting for funding. Top.

It won’t work. People have to drive during congested times, otherwise they wouldn’t put up with it.
Actually 25% or more of the cars on the road during the peak hour are not commuting. The positive impact of pricing would come from a combination of some of these discretionary trips moving to other times, and some drivers shifting to other routes, carpooling, or riding the bus. Pricing can only work well when there are good alternatives available; this is why at least some of the revenue from pricing should go to support improved transit service in the affected corridor.

Wouldn’t tolls push traffic onto neighborhood streets?
This issue will vary depending on the unique characteristics of the project. It may be necessary to include traffic calming strategies in addition to transit improvement strategies. But without pricing, neighborhood streets can still be clogged with people trying to bypass unexpected congestion. One advantage of pricing might be that people change modes or time of travel, so that there will be fewer cars to start with, and potentially less need for local diversion.

We’ve already paid for the roads.
The gas tax typically does not even cover the costs of ongoing maintenance of roads, let alone raise enough money for needed expansions and new roads. As a result, a substantial percentage of the costs of building and maintaining roads comes from sources such as property and sales taxes, where payments are completely unrelated to how much one actually drives. Money raised by congestion tolls could be used to replace these non-transportation taxes. Top.

Why not just raise the gas tax?
Raising the gas tax would generate more revenue, but would not have the other beneficial effects of congestion pricing. The point of congestion pricing is to reduce problematic trips, specifically those on congested roads. Raising the gas tax might have a small impact on the total amount of driving people do, but would probably have a relatively bigger impact on off-peak recreational trips. The overall effect would be to reduce traffic at times that weren’t congested to start with, while leaving peak period congestion largely unchanged. A longer term problem is that within a few years, many vehicles may not run on traditional fuels, and could end up paying no tax at all.

This seems like an invasion of privacy.
Transponders with embedded money work essentially as cash; the toll is deducted from the transponder itself and no record is kept of the transaction. However, this requires that the transponder is kept "loaded" with money. A newer and possibly more convenient option (used in Australia) uses license plate recognition to identify users, and bills are paid through credit cards or other means. In this case, a record is kept of trips; however, technical and legal constraints can guarantee that this information is not used for purposes other than billing.

What is a HOT lane?
The phrase "High Occupancy Toll lane" refers to a situation where solo drivers are allowed to buy access to special lanes that are free for carpools and buses. This is the most common current application of value pricing in the U.S. In the case of SR 91 in California, the lanes were designed to be operated this way. In other cases, this technique has been used to more efficiently use space on existing but underused carpool lanes. Top.

But if people can use the carpool lanes by paying, won’t they quit carpooling?
Exactly the opposite has occurred on I-15 and SR 91 in California. When variable pricing went into effect, more people switched to carpools. Seemingly, seeing a price attached to the road made people feel that carpooling was a better "deal."

Isn’t this just giving an advantage to rich people?
The reality based on experience with California projects is that people of all income levels use these lanes, but very few people use them every day. The tolls are typically in the range of $2 -$4. Almost anyone can afford this on the occasional days that they are in a particular hurry; on other days they simply use the regular lanes.

[mookie2001]

why wont you answer the question? /chumpdumper