Sicko

[Fabbs]

Pretty good flick.
Amazing how much healthier the Brits, French, Canadians and Cubans are.
Emphasis is truly on getting better, not on scheming profits.

USA healthcare CEOs and policians are truly sickos.

[T Park]

amazing how you believe everything you hear in it.

Alot of it is total bullshit.

[Fabbs]

amazing how you believe everything you hear in it.

Alot of it is total bullshit.
Go ahead, lets hear your documented evidence.

[johnsmith]

I don't really mind the fact that Moore is on the left.

Frankly, I agree with the argument he is most likely making in this movie.

But the dude is a liar and people believe his movies to be complete fact.

Therefore, this is yet another movie Moore has made since Bowling for Columbine (biggest lies ever), that I won't see.

[Fabbs]

I don't really mind the fact that Moore is on the left.

Frankly, I agree with the argument he is most likely making in this movie.

But the dude is a liar and people believe his movies to be complete fact.

Do any people like you agree with the argument he is making and not believe everything he presents in every movie he makes is complete fact? I don't think you are the only one.

T_Park have you ever been out of Texas?

[fraga]

I'm actually reading that alot of sites are checking the claims/facts from "Sicko" and they're actually checking out...kind of alarming...

[T Park]

No I've never been out of texas.

Thats why i do business in california and arizona and have done purchasings in italy, netherlands, and other places. :rolleyes

Moore is a complete liar and about 80% of his movies are lies, or made up BS.


Also his arguement is pretty much for socialized medicine.

No. I have business partners and friends that live in England and they tell me that their medical system is FUBAR.

They said our system has its flaws but is twice what england's is.

[Soul_Patch]

Thats funny because i hear just the opposite from good friends in Switzerand, Finland, and sweden. (my parents hosted a lot of exchange students in highschool)


They are disgusted with our healthcare system and couldnt imagine a world without theirs.

[Extra Stout]

Moore's argument that our nation's health care is screwed up is airtight. Insurance companies deny life-saving care for the sake of profit, and are not held accountable for it. We pay sky-high drug prices primarily so drug companies can market their products on TV. Inexpensive natural remedies are legislated out of existence so that the expensive synthetic products can be forced upon us.

His argument that we need a single-payer system... is not so airtight. There are other ways to skin that cat.

Cuba is an embarrassment to us, because they are able to achieve the kind of results they do while spensing just $250 per capita on health care. Part of that is because doctors make a pittance there, but much of it goes to their system of preventive care and cross-function cooperation in the face of outdated and undermaintained facilites, and chronic supply shortages. The U.S. has attempted to bust the Cuban health care system by making it impossible for them to get even basic drugs, but it hasn't worked.

Cuba is an utterly impoverished nation, with a repressive and corrupt communist government, with a capital city that is half in ruins due to decades of neglect, but Cubans on average are healthier than Americans.

The difference is that their culture is healtheir than ours, and their health care system is focused upon making patients better as the first priority, instead of exploiting them to make money.

There is a difference between simply being for-profit, and actively undermining people's health to exploit them for profit, and then letting them die when life-saving treatments, that never would have been necessary in the first place with decent preventive care, get too expensive and cut into profits.

[E20]

I never watch Moore's movies. I had to sit through Columbine and I hated it, same with F-911. So, I probably won't watch this one, but if he's right on this, as many say it is, then good for him for finally making a documentry that is credible.

[SAtoDallas]

Moore just hates everything about America and this movie is just another example of it, he's only showing one side of the story the side he wants you to see. Sure our health care system has it's flaws but I'd rather be treated here than anywhere else in the world.

[Fabbs]

No I've never been out of texas.

Thats why i do business in california and arizona and have done purchasings in italy, netherlands, and other places. :rolleyes I've never used Ebay. :lol

[Avitus1]

All I know is that health care in this country is jacked. If you know any one in Canada and you had a talk with them about health care you'd be shocked. I know I was. This movie is in Moore's style so there might be a bit of distorted "facts." The important thing is that people will hopefully want to improve our health care and get talking about it. Our country could use affordable health care for all.

[Fabbs]

I never watch Moore's movies. I had to sit through Columbine and I hated it, same with F-911. So, I probably won't watch this one, but if he's right on this, as many say it is, then good for him for finally making a documentry that is credible. My understanding is his knowing a good many were onto his fabrications in his other docus made him set out to make this one straight. So far it seems so other then T_Parks British business contacts.

[Mixability]

amazing how you believe everything you hear in it.

Alot of it is total bullshit.

I'm guessing this is also your review of "Super Size Me".

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

No I've never been out of texas.

Thats why i do business in california and arizona and have done purchasings in italy, netherlands, and other places. :rolleyes

Moore is a complete liar and about 80% of his movies are lies, or made up BS.


Also his arguement is pretty much for socialized medicine.

No. I have business partners and friends that live in England and they tell me that their medical system is FUBAR.

They said our system has its flaws but is twice what england's is.


You do realize that there almost as many people without medical insurance here in the US as there are people in the UK, right?

I guess that would constitute as a minor flaw, eh?

[T Park]

:lol

Yes lets let the government take control of the medical system.

BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS EFFICENT!!


I'm guessing this is also your review of "Super Size Me".

You need help.

[dickface]

I'm guessing this is also your review of "Super Size Me".
:lmao :lmao :lmao

[dickface]

Don't worry about T-Park, he's harmless. He's just taking whatever his "God Bless America and No Place Else" Texas loving buddies say to him while they're out gun shopping and regurgitating it here like he's actually thought about it.

[Fabbs]

:lol

Yes lets let the government take control of the medical system.

BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS EFFICENT!!

You need help. As Moore pointed out, they already run the postal system, the schools (for the most part), the fire depts, the police depts. Don't act like its such a foreign idea. As inefficient as the US Govt is, perhaps they would be more efficent then their current criminal partners the insurance companies.

[dickface]

Michael Moore is an entertainer and shouldn't be viewed as much more than that. His movies raise alot of good questions but really doesn't offer a real solution to anything. Watch it, laugh, take it all with a huge grain of salt, and use it as a springboard to find out the real truth for yourself.

[fraga]

^^Word

[T Park]

the schools (for the most part

Yeah uh, and look at the huge mess those things are.

No.

Government ran health care is a mistake this country cannot afford to make.

[T Park]

Im shocked at the number of people who are ready to just turn more control of day to day life to the government.

Unreal.

[Spurminator]

The postal service and schools have a variety of private alternatives that offer a high level of service to those who are able to afford it.

[AnkleBreaker21]

put this bullshit thread in the politics not in the fucking club

[johnsmith]

put this bullshit thread in the politics not in the fucking club


Yeah!!!!

It's fucking exhausting to read the thread title and then NOT click it. Ankle Breaker21 is having way too difficult of a time NOT clicking it.

Put it in the Political forum so everyone will be relaxed and NOT have to click on it.

[ObiwanGinobili]

Moore just hates everything about America and this movie is just another example of it, he's only showing one side of the story the side he wants you to see. Sure our health care system has it's flaws but I'd rather be treated here than anywhere else in the world.

I would rather be treated in alot of other countries.

[E20]

I would rather be treated in alot of other countries.
Not to pick on you, but name me some and why.

[AnkleBreaker21]

Yeah!!!!

It's fucking exhausting to read the thread title and then NOT click it. Ankle Breaker21 is having way too difficult of a time NOT clicking it.

Put it in the Political forum so everyone will be relaxed and NOT have to click on it.
man stfu the club is about intersting fun topics we dont need no politics in here. its bad enough we have to hear that shit 24/7 on the news. thats why we have a politics forum. so stop your bitchin and whining

[johnsmith]

man stfu the club is about intersting fun topics we dont need no politics in here. its bad enough we have to hear that shit 24/7 on the news. thats why we have a politics forum. so stop your bitchin and whining


Ummmm, weren't you the one "bitchin and whining"?


Is it ok to ask that in the club forum?

[AnkleBreaker21]

whatever nugget fan, if you wanna keep talking about this gay ass movie. go ahead

[johnsmith]

whatever nugget fan, if you wanna keep talking about this gay ass movie. go ahead


:lol :lol
"nugget fan"...oooooohhhhhhhh, damn, that was a kick ass put down.

I've been pwned or something.

[T Park]

BTW.

A little note for the Michael Moore lovers here.

Ask michael "Where did the dictators of those countries go when they are sick?"

Other than Castro.

Uhhh, America.

Yeah our health care system is shit.

[boutons_]

"Im shocked at the number of people who are ready to just turn more control of day to day life to the government."

But you aren't shocked that the USA has turned over health care to predatory corps, Big Pharma, health insurance corps, etc, etc, for which their profits are to be maximized, and health care delivery and the health of the citizens is to be minimized, or disqualified.

A great example of a successful federal health program is the VA as reformed in the 90s.

[monosylab1k]

BTW.

A little note for the Michael Moore lovers here.

Ask michael "Where did the dictators of those countries go when they are sick?"

Other than Castro.

Uhhh, America.

Yeah our health care system is shit.

I didn't realize that Canada, France, and England were run by dictators.

[DarkReign]

I didn't realize that Canada, France, and England were run by dictators.

Oh man, you just stepped in some shit there.

According to the Republicans, they are and have been for a looooong time.

[AnkleBreaker21]

:lol :lol
"nugget fan"...oooooohhhhhhhh, damn, that was a kick ass put down.

I've been pwned or something.
yah you where when your team got kicked out the first round,bitches :lol

[johnsmith]

yah you where when your team got kicked out the first round,bitches :lol


And from here on out I'll just assume you are 13.

[spurschick]

How has this thread not been moved to the political forum yet?

[johnsmith]

How has this thread not been moved to the political forum yet?


How?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Why hasn't anyone updated the iPhone thread? That shit is way more important.

[AnkleBreaker21]

How has this thread not been moved to the political forum yet?
thats what i been trying to tell this asshole johnsmith

[Fabbs]

BTW.
Ask michael "Where did the dictators of those countries go when they are sick?"

Other than Castro.

Uhhh, America.

Yeah our health care system is shit.
Did you hear this from your "British business contacts" or do you have some documentation?

[T Park]

Im done. If your gonna act like a child im done.

Take the thread and shove it.

[ShoogarBear]

The fact is that if you want to run the health field as a for-profit industry, then you're going to win up treating diseases, not preventing them (like the US tends to do).

On the other hand, if you want to focus the health field on basic preventative care keeping the general population from getting sick, then you're not going to have as many high-end technical advances in things like chemotherapy, antibiotics, cardiac catheterizations, microfracture surgery, etc (like many of the European countries).

[T Park]

im glad the doctor finally showed up and installed wisdom.

Thanks doc.

[Fabbs]

The fact is that if you want to run the health field as a for-profit industry, then you're going to win up treating diseases, not preventing them (like the US tends to do).

On the other hand, if you want to focus the health field on basic preventative care keeping the general population from getting sick, then you're not going to have as many high-end technical advances in things like chemotherapy, antibiotics, cardiac catheterizations, microfracture surgery, etc (like many of the European countries).
Access to the high end technical advances. Exactly one of the points presented in Moores movie. What good are all the technical gizmos if you have no access to them? The insurance companies credo is deny deny. I didn't need Moore to know that. Start of the movie shows a woman who needed an MRI. The greedy HMO purposely denied her just to save money. She went on vacation to Japan. The headaches continued. The Japanese ER did an MRI. She had a big assed tumor that had been there for quite a while, no way it just developed on the trip.
Three Ground Zero workers all had seperate ailments that the US system would not treat. The gal had amoung other things a breathing problem. She got some relief from these canister deals but they were $120 a pop in the US. Same exact thing like 50 cents in Cuba. The system up here just jacks people for profit. With her $1000 a month SSI $120 a pop was huge. Also she lost her gov't job and income even tho she an EMT helping clean up at Ground Zero. How screwed up is that? These were more the norm then the exception.

So the Brit etc Doctors get their patients to quit smoking period. In fact Britian gives it doctors a bonuses for getting X number of their patients off tabacco. The US docs wont get you off it, but they will build some breathing gizmo you can hook up to the hole in your neck. That's better quality of life?

And T_Park i thought you left.

[Phil Hellmuth]

Sicko bashers are stubborn aren't they. Weak ass rebutalls.

[T Park]

Three Ground Zero workers all had seperate ailments that the US system would not treat. The gal had amoung other things a breathing problem. She got some relief from these canister deals but they were $120 a pop in the US. Same exact thing like 50 cents in Cuba. The system up here just jacks people for profit. With her $1000 a month SSI $120 a pop was huge. Also she lost her gov't job and income even tho she an EMT helping clean up at Ground Zero. How screwed up is that? These were more the norm then the exception.

I'll find the link later

but i've read Moore was told in some ways to GFY by many ground zero workers, and the workers that did go, he reportedly paid them quite handsomely.

BTW, if Cuba is so fantastic, go live there, and see how wonderfull it is to live there under the great and wonderfull Castro.

You sound like Ed Asner.

[Budkin]

Amazing film. Practically brought me to tears thinking about all the medical bullshit my wife and I have had to go through with the insurance companies here. Something needs to be done about the way our system "works" and how fucking corrupt it is.

[Phil Hellmuth]

there are obvious problem's with any socialized or non-socialized health care. What is common ground though is getting awareness and avoiding exploitations that happen in the capitalistic health care system of ours (as the movie points out)


WHY CAN'T PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS PREMISE!!!

but no!!!! (sarcasm) the skeptics and stubborn bashers have to argue it (when most haven't seen the movie) and say USA healthcare is fine and our healthcare has top of the line technology and blah blah....

or even they point out lil details and try to mock or use that as a way to depict the movie as something unworthy. (the 9/11 workers, cuba, etc.)

so frustrating. some people just argue to argue.

[ploto]

How has this thread not been moved to the political forum yet?
Therein lies a big part of the problem- healthcare should not be a political issue.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol @ socialized healthcare not being a political topic.

[dickface]

Im done. If your gonna act like a child im done.

Take the thread and shove it.

LMAO. What a tool.

"Stop acting like a child....AND SHOVE IT!!!!"

that's why nobody respects your stupid ass.

[SAtoDallas]

I would rather be treated in alot of other countries.
Which one's and why?

[Testing]

People who believe the US Health system is fine must not have experienced the bad end of the system.

Bottom line is, if you have the money you can afford to go to the best hospital in the city and have the best treatments available to you.....you won't have to worry about it being out of network, worrying about the gazillions of bills doctors and radioligists will send to your home, etc.

My biggest problem with the healthcare system starts with the doctors...many of whom are much too busy treating a high volume of patients daily for people to get the medical attention they deserve. They care about getting a million tests done on, so they can charge the insurance companies, they rarely take the time to sit down and truly discuss your options with you and manage your treatment....that stuff is left up to you to figure out these days.

[ploto]

My biggest problem with the healthcare system starts with the doctors...many of whom are much too busy treating a high volume of patients daily for people to get the medical attention they deserve.

Do you want the doctor not to see you at all when you want to be seen or do you want him to squeeze you in- like he does for others when they call. I mean this seriously. If the doctor is seeing too many patients, what is the solution? If your doctor is busy, it is probably because he has so many patients that want to be seen. Most office-type physicians work long hours. Do you have any idea the hours spent after the patients are gone on paperwork- checking on lab results and tests- returning phone calls- approving prescription refills... Do you prefer that the doctor refuse to see sick people who call? Tell them there is an appointment open in 3 weeks?


They care about getting a million tests done on, so they can charge the insurance companies,
If you're talking about a doctor who sends you for tests, they get no money for doing that.

[baseline bum]

I'll find the link later

but i've read Moore was told in some ways to GFY by many ground zero workers, and the workers that did go, he reportedly paid them quite handsomely.

BTW, if Cuba is so fantastic, go live there, and see how wonderfull it is to live there under the great and wonderfull Castro.

You sound like Ed Asner.

What do you know about Cuba? I've never been, but I have three friends who have spent significant time in Habana and tell me people are very happy there. They say it's a laid back culture that doesn't revolve around the almighty dollar like this one.

[Fabbs]

Phil Hellmuth Sicko bashers are stubborn aren't they. Weak ass rebutalls
:toast From another board:
Listen up, all you lovers of freedom. If you dissapprove of Moore's flicks, you are free NOT to watch them. Very simple. To keep your minds occupied there are tractor pulls, NASCAR, and Fox News.


LMAO. What a tool.

"Stop acting like a child....AND SHOVE IT!!!!"

that's why nobody respects your stupid ass.

T_parks exodus
I'll find the link later

If your gonna pontificate on something in here bringing news or supposed "truths" to a subject. I'd like the link to the story that says this bit of news, proving this truth.

Im done.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Amazing film. Practically brought me to tears thinking about all the medical bullshit my wife and I have had to go through with the insurance companies here. Something needs to be done about the way our system "works" and how fucking corrupt it is.I haven't seen this yet. I'll download it. No way in HELL Michael Moore is getting any of my money. Anyway, do they talk about Big Pharma in this? Health insurance is a racket, but Big Pharma is a cog in the whole racket machine. I know I'll rekindle this old debate, but more than half this country is medicated and it's doing more harm than good. I'll be damned if I have to take a damn pill for anything the rest of my life. No thank you. Say what you will, but I'll sidestep this "Kool-Aid" line. <-----------Jamestown reference.

[Fabbs]

I haven't seen this yet. I'll download it. No way in HELL Michael Moore is getting any of my money. Anyway, do they talk about Big Pharma in this? Health insurance is a racket, but Big Pharma is a cog in the whole racket machine. <-----------Jamestown reference. Yes. One 80 year old married guy is still working, primarily because of the cost of the pills he and his wife are supposed to take.
Also as you previously read, the cannister deals that do bring some relief to the layed off Ground Zero gov't employee with (surprise) breathing problems because the EPA lied thru their teeth about 9/11 area air being safe, the Pharms gouge her $120 a can up here, 50 cents or so in evil Cuba. But as to having a whole segment of the movie just on the Pharm pigs, i recall it more like some mentions but not whole segments. Also for the people Moore took to or interviewed in the evil foreign countries to be treated by their evil doctors, most of the ones on pills were signifigantly reduced, ie one chick from 9 prescripts a day, evil foreign doctor cut it back to 4 a day, eliminated the other 5.

Maybe some others will remember more about the pharm parts. Posters who actually saw it.

[Soul_Patch]

This needs a bump since i just finally watched this movie last night.


This countries corrupt health care fuckin disgusts me.

Id like to hear people's arguments as to why countries like the UK or France or Canada or so much worse off than we are? Please? Please give me some arguments as to how we are so much better off here than these people?


Ive done my fair share of traveling. My family lived in Germany for 2 years, and ive traveled around Europe 5 seperate times and visited and lived with real native families in said countries. that on top of hearing testimony in this movie really makes me wonder what is so bad about it? What is bad about free government sponsored healthcare? I get to go sign in, and get seen for free, for anything? I get to have a college education for free?!?!? You mean, the same thing im 45k in debt for right now, others recieved for free? My wife would get 6 months off of work paid in full for maternity leave? You mean the same thing she is only getting 6 weeks off for here, and getting only 60% pay?



I just dont buy the fear mongering bullshit...give me valid arguments please...All of Tparks bullshit in this thread has no merit at all, never once do you make a valid point...all i see is just, "believe me because AMERICA IS GREAT! damnit and dont question it!!!"

[AZLouis]

A little note on federally provided healthcare...


Dorgan: American Indian health care a national embarrassment Email this page Print this page
Posted: December 07, 2007
by: Sen. Byron Dorgan


Recently in North Dakota, a woman from the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation had severe chest pains and extremely high blood pressure. At a local IHS clinic, she was diagnosed as having a heart attack. The staff of the clinic insisted she go by ambulance to the nearest major hospital, 80 miles away. She resisted because she knew she would be billed for the trip and could not afford it, but the clinic insisted.

When she arrived at the hospital and was being transferred from the ambulance to a gurney, an envelope was found taped to her leg. In the envelope was a letter stating that the IHS lacked funds to pay for the health care she needed because a ''life or limb'' medical condition was not involved. Really? A suspected heart attack is not ''life or limb''? Fortunately, the individual survived. But she later received a bill for approximately $10,000.

This past August, the U.S. Senate's Indian Affairs Committee held a hearing at the Crow Reservation in Montana. The Crow Tribe's health director told this heartbreaking story about her 5-year-old granddaughter, Ta'Shon Rain Littlelight.

Between May and August of 2006, Ta'Shon was brought numerous times to an IHS clinic. She was treated for depression. During one clinic visit, Ta'Shon's grandfather pointed out the bulbous condition of her fingertips and toes, believing that this condition indicated a lack of oxygen to the body. The grandfather's concern was dismissed. In June 2006, the grandmother asked Ta'Shon's doctor to eliminate the possibilities of cancer or leukemia. Once again, the concern went unheeded.

In August 2006, Ta'Shon suffered a collapsed lung. She ended up in Denver, where she was diagnosed with an incurable form of cancer. She died on Sept. 1, 2006. Her grandmother believed that Ta'Shon's last two years of life were spent in ''unmedicated pain'' and wondered whether an earlier diagnosis would have made any difference.

These stories are repeated every day on Indian reservations across the country. Health care has become a hot issue. But as we work to improve the nation's health care system, we ignore the health care crisis affecting American Indians, the First Americans.

Why is Native health care not simply an indistinguishable component of the overall health care system? Because our country has an affirmative trust obligation toward American Indians. That obligation is grounded in numerous treaties and, more generally, in the moral responsibility for the negative impact over generations of changing federal policies.

The great Chief Justice John Marshall, in the 1831 decision of Cherokee Nation v. Georgia, recognized that the United States had a unique trustee relationship toward Indian tribes.

Statistics highlight the desperate condition of American Indian health care. Compared to the U.S. population as a whole, Natives have a 600 percent higher incidence of tuberculosis, a 189 percent higher incidence of diabetes and a 510 percent higher incidence of alcoholism. Suicides on reservations in the northern Great Plains are 10 times higher than the national average.

To improve the performance of the United States as trustee for the health care of American Indians, more funding and continuous innovation are needed. For 2005, the per capita federal health expenditure by the IHS was $2,130. By the way, that's about one-half the per capita spending for federal prisoners' health care, and it was far below the estimated per capita benchmarks of Medicare at $6,784 and the Veterans Administration at $4,653. It means we have full-scale ''health care rationing'' for American Indians, and it has to stop. We need to meet our obligations.

The U.S. Congress is now considering a reauthorization of the Indian Health Care Improvement Act. It has been eight years since the Congress has taken action to improve Indian health care. This new legislation will make some needed improvements such as developing a new type of convenient care clinic and authorizing a new effort to combat the clusters of teen suicides on Indian reservations. But this is just a first step.

Our nation has a trust responsibility for the health of American Indians, and it's long past time we own up to that responsibility.

Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., is chairman of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee.

Link (http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096416251)

I haven't seen Sicko yet, is there any discussion as to the treatment mentioned by Senator Dorgan above?

[Soul_Patch]

There is no mention at all in the movie regarding American Indian Healthcare. im not sure i quite understand it either.


Are you saying they have a version of federally funded healthcare that doesnt work? This doesnt suprise me, as it seems the American Indian population has a lot of verions of federally provided services that are well below how we treat most of our pets.

[T Park]

I'll take our health system over a federal government regulated and run one.

[01Snake]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf3MtjMBWx4

[T Park]

What do you know about Cuba? I've never been, but I have three friends who have spent significant time in Habana and tell me people are very happy there. They say it's a laid back culture that doesn't revolve around the almighty dollar like this one.



That whole jailing reporters for having opposing viewpoints to Castro, murdering dissenters.


Other than those fantastic details, and being a communist country, yeah Cuba is a peachy keen place.

[Saguaro]

This needs a bump since i just finally watched this movie last night.


This countries corrupt health care fuckin disgusts me.

Id like to hear people's arguments as to why countries like the UK or France or Canada or so much worse off than we are? Please? Please give me some arguments as to how we are so much better off here than these people?


Ive done my fair share of traveling. My family lived in Germany for 2 years, and ive traveled around Europe 5 seperate times and visited and lived with real native families in said countries. that on top of hearing testimony in this movie really makes me wonder what is so bad about it? What is bad about free government sponsored healthcare? I get to go sign in, and get seen for free, for anything? I get to have a college education for free?!?!? You mean, the same thing im 45k in debt for right now, others recieved for free? My wife would get 6 months off of work paid in full for maternity leave? You mean the same thing she is only getting 6 weeks off for here, and getting only 60% pay?



I just dont buy the fear mongering bullshit...give me valid arguments please...All of Tparks bullshit in this thread has no merit at all, never once do you make a valid point...all i see is just, "believe me because AMERICA IS GREAT! damnit and dont question it!!!"
The tradeoff, if you live in Europe, for the free health care and education is the vastly higher income tax rate. The standard of living for the professional classes is lower in Europe than it is in the U.S.

[Soul_Patch]

The tradeoff, if you live in Europe, for the free health care and education is the vastly higher income tax rate. The standard of living for the professional classes is lower in Europe than it is in the U.S.


Im sorry but i think that tradeoff is well worth it. If i can not have to pay a copay every time i go to the doctor's office, or my wife have to pay 45 dollars every couple of weeks for prenatal vitamins perscribed to her...for fucking vitamins?!? Or what about having to pay over 3500 dollars out of pocket to the hospital to deliver my baby? I think if i had to pay a few more % in taxes, it would be well worth it, if god forbid, i was diagnosed with cancer or some other life threatening disease.

The standard of living thing is just a joke...How much damn money do you need for god sake? millions isnt enough? what about billions? trillionos? brazillions?? why does everything have to revolve around how fat your pocketbook is...eventually you should just be satisfied right? enjoy what you have, and stop wanting more? How about enjoy other things in life other than making more money?

such a gross society we live in today.

edit: you is meant figuratively.

[01Snake]

Do you really think its free? Your paying for it in some way, shape or form.

[AZLouis]

Are you saying they have a version of federally funded healthcare that doesnt work? This doesnt suprise me, as it seems the American Indian population has a lot of verions of federally provided services that are well below how we treat most of our pets.

I'm saying that the healthcare for American Indians does not work that great.

I'm a member of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and have had the unfortunate circumstance during my life to experience some of the problems. I've also seen them firsthand.

It's a flawed system. Heck, look at those numbers in Dorgan's article. Prisoners receive more money for healthcare than American Indians.

I'm fortunate enough now to be able to provide health insurance for my family.

Imagine being one of those that can't. My tribe claims 85% unemployment. Our income per capita is $13,000 compared to the US average of $20,000.

[JoeChalupa]

That is a disgrace.

[Saguaro]

Im sorry but i think that tradeoff is well worth it. If i can not have to pay a copay every time i go to the doctor's office, or my wife have to pay 45 dollars every couple of weeks for prenatal vitamins perscribed to her...for fucking vitamins?!? Or what about having to pay over 3500 dollars out of pocket to the hospital to deliver my baby? I think if i had to pay a few more % in taxes, it would be well worth it, if god forbid, i was diagnosed with cancer or some other life threatening disease.

The standard of living thing is just a joke...How much damn money do you need for god sake? millions isnt enough? what about billions? trillionos? brazillions?? why does everything have to revolve around how fat your pocketbook is...eventually you should just be satisfied right? enjoy what you have, and stop wanting more? How about enjoy other things in life other than making more money?

such a gross society we live in today.
Other developed societies do not have quite such a focus on the acquisition of material wealth as Americans do. We are more willing to sacrifice our free time, our relationships, our health, and our children's future, in order to live in a larger home made of more luxurious materials, and to drive a more prestigious car, and to have fancier furniture and consumer electronics.

[Soul_Patch]

I'm saying that the healthcare for American Indians does not work that great.

I'm a member of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and have had the unfortunate circumstance during my life to experience some of the problems. I've also seen them firsthand.

It's a flawed system. Heck, look at those numbers in Dorgan's article. Prisoners receive more money for healthcare than American Indians.

I'm fortunate enough now to be able to provide health insurance for my family.

Imagine being one of those that can't. My tribe claims 85% unemployment. Our income per capita is $13,000 compared to the US average of $20,000.


I dont doubt this at all. I think, as in most government programs designed for Native Americans, it is poorly ran and way underfunded. Unfortunately though that has been the case since the white man ran through and stole up all your land. You guys have always got the shaft unfortunately. i hate it, but its hard make a comparison from that to a national healthcare system, or maybe it isnt...i would like to think the American government would handle a nation wide health care system a bit better than that.

But look at what they have done for Native American's, and even our own veterans...Why can other countries get it so right, and ours continuously get it so wrong. Our government really sickens me sometimes. Im not saying governments of european countries dont have their fare share of problems, they have plenty. Unemployment is a HUGE problem in a lot of these countries...nothing is perfect, but im tired of all of the grossly rich people in this country trying to instill their beliefs on what is right and wrong into me, when in reality what they think is right, is whatever is making their wallets fatter.

fuck that.

[AZLouis]

I agree. There is more that can be done. If that meant higher income taxes then so be it.

BTW it's possible to do what your speaking of. Prior to the inception of the Pell Grant through the Higher Education Act of of 1965, American Indians also received free college education.

Here is some interesting info on the healthcare issue as it relates to American Indians




Improved Indian health care discussed
Sadie Jo Smokey
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 16, 2007 12:00 AM

Health care is not a legal right at birth, unless you're a member of a federally recognized American Indian tribe. The U.S. government, which signed treaties promising health services in exchange for land and natural resources, provides health care to more than 1.5 million American Indians and Alaska Natives who belong to more than 557 federally recognized tribes in 35 states.

Dr. Don Warne, president and CEO of American Indian Health Management and Policy in Tempe, says Indian Health Service, the agency responsible for providing federal health services, receives inadequate funding and its resources suffer as a result.

AIHMP hosts the first American Indian Health Policy Conference on Thursday and Friday at the Fort McDowell Reservation to help Arizona tribes find creative ways to improve services and access to health-care funding.

Warne, 40, also teaches American Indian health policy at the Sandra Day O'Connor College of Law at Arizona State University.

Question: Why focus on American Indian health policy?

Answer: Many conferences either focus on specific diseases or specific issues in health care. Our goal is to work with tribal programs to improve access to quality health care. Policy determines what kind of funding is available and priorities. We have to know these to improve access.

Q: What is the funding for Indian Health Service compared with other federal agencies?

A: Per capita, for Indian Health Service, it's about $1,914 per person per year. Federal prisons is about $3,803 per person per year. Medicaid is $3,879 per person per year. If you're a convicted federal prisoner, you have double the (health) resources than if you're a Native American child. There's no way policymakers would accept this for their own families.

Q: Is one segment of the Native American population at more of a disadvantage than another due to underfunding?

A: We have unique issues for urban Indians. A lot of people moved to the cities for education and occupational opportunities. About 60 percent of American Indians live in urban settings; only 40 percent live on reservations. We have a whole segment, a majority, of enrolled American Indian members that have decreased access to health care because they live in cities. Nowhere is it written that once they move to the city, they forfeit their access to health care.

Q: What resources are available for urban Indians? Do they have to return to the reservation to receive health services or medical treatment?

A: You don't have to live on the reservation, but the funding for urban clinics is terribly low, about $1 million per year per clinic. There are currently 34 Urban Indian Health centers. Three are in Arizona - Flagstaff, Phoenix and Tucson. We have a lot more (tribal) members who have private insurance. We need to charge (private) third-party insurance, to charge Medicare and Medicaid. It's increasing resources to increase provision of care.

Q: Why should American Indians with health or dental insurance through their employer pay for services that are free for their relations who don't have insurance?

A: Basically, because of underfunding, IHS can provide primary-care services, but limited access to specialty care and long-term care. For example, oncology, intensive treatment cardiology, heart and lung specialists. Since we don't have specialists working in (IHS clinics), we have to contract with private sector providers. By charging third-party insurance, this frees up more dollars. This has tremendous impact on our ability to access specialty care.

Q: Why don't wealthier tribes with greater financial resources assist tribes without successful economic development?

A: I hear that argument a lot, especially from fiscal conservatives. What they're advocating for is socialism. I agree that we should help each other, but we shouldn't hold tribes to a higher standard than we hold everyone else. There are over 40 million uninsured people and another 40 million underinsured people in this country. Are wealthy non-Indian people responsible to pay for health care for all the impoverished non-Indians? The local tribes surrounding Phoenix have been very helpful in supporting the urban programs with grants, primarily.

Q: How much money does IHS need to adequately provide services for American Indians?

A: Some studies estimate, depending on the area of IHS, if we doubled the budget, we'd have adequate service. There's a federal employees benchmark, $3,800 per person per year. Funding for IHS should be equivalent. If we can come up with $80 billion to start a war, we should be able to come up with another $3 billion to improve the health of the first inhabitants of the nation.

Reach the reporter at sadiejo.smokey@arizonarep ublic.com or (602) 444-8148.



http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/articles/0116indianhealth0116.html

[Shelly]

I'm saying that the healthcare for American Indians does not work that great.

I'm a member of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and have had the unfortunate circumstance during my life to experience some of the problems. I've also seen them firsthand.

It's a flawed system. Heck, look at those numbers in Dorgan's article. Prisoners receive more money for healthcare than American Indians.

I'm fortunate enough now to be able to provide health insurance for my family.

Imagine being one of those that can't. My tribe claims 85% unemployment. Our income per capita is $13,000 compared to the US average of $20,000.

My husband did his residency through the VA in Tucson and was constantly going to Sells to see people at the Tohono O'odham reservation. I'm not sure how the VA was affliated with them. I'll have to ask him.

[exstatic]

TPark never did provide that link. He also wasn't "done" with this thread, I guess. This was a lot like his "I'll leave the forum for a year" statement. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

[ShoogarBear]

I'll take our health system over a federal government regulated and run one.It's naive to believe the US health care system isn't guided to a large part by federally regulations. Once Medicare sets their standards the private insurers and HMOs use that as a basis to determine a lot of what they do.

[spurscenter]

Money Rules the World.

It all started with Kaiser P. Downhill from there.

[BacktoBasics]

I finally saw this movie and what about two years later nothing has changed. Nothing is better and for the most part its worse.

I'm not going to defend Moore but I'll certainly defend the points he makes. My mother lived in Europe for two years came back to the states took a job with health care and ended up moving back to Europe because she couldn't afford to maintain a reasonable lifestyle within the American system. As far as she's concerned the care and service provided for her isn't even comparable. Basically she explained it to me like this "I spent way too much time feeling that I was one minor ailment away from bankruptcy".

To further expand her points she cited the time my sister broke her arm. Even with health care she was out of pocket 4,200.00 dollars and still ended up with 2,300.00 in collections she would have paid had she been billed properly. It hindered her ability to purchase a vehicle twice. She wasn't trying to avoid paying them she didn't know they were in collection. The entire system does nothing to truly help a person....only profit from them at any expense. She flat couldn't live that way any longer.

A good 25% of my customers are Canadians. Never once out of the thousands I've done business with ever mention how poor or unworthy their system is. I usually make a point to mention it just to satisfy my own personal curiosity. I don't get the Anti-American sentiment from them either. They don't bash our system its always been more of a sympathy approach....a lack of understanding as to why this country is so willing to only provide for those who can afford it. As if the health of some are more valuable than others.

I'll be the first to say that I feel as an American that I should be entitled to certain things. An education, police safety, fire safety, safe foods to consume, flat and safe roads to travel on

care for my well being and health.

[BacktoBasics]

We aren't talking about trivial tangible luxuries here. We are talking about living breathing human beings. Greed has infected this countries ability to provide care to the people that defend it, support it and make this a functional and profitable country. The well being of this countries citizens has been bought off and charged back to us.

They are literally biting the hand that feeds them. Its disgusting and there is no benefit as a societal whole for doing things the way we do. The few with a direct connection to the money aspect of the industry benefit and that's the bottom line.

I don't see how anyone can defend the current design or anything like it considering the amount of people that die unnecessarily each year. How the fuck do you argue against government controlled heath care but be fine with the current police and fire service. Should those be for profit as well? As far as I'm concerned its another service that we should be entitled to.

This coming from a guy who resents the sense of entitlement the general public has.

[desflood]

So, Ryan: You're entitled to help to get a good education, but somebody with no job isn't entitled to help finding one?

[BacktoBasics]

So, Ryan: You're entitled to help to get a good education, but somebody with no job isn't entitled to help finding one?Where do you get that from? I'm all for programs to help the jobless find work. I just think that most don't take full advantage of whats available.

[Creepn]

Saw this movie a few days ago and man what an eye opener. I knew the system has its flaws but after seeing the movie, I was disgusted with our health care. I was sad and angry at the same time. BacktoBasic said it, GREED. Greed is the source of all this. Fuckin Humana denying that guy bone marrow treatment to save themselves boatloads of money. Sad shit.

If Obama doesnt do anything else, I hope he at least fix this health care problem. That one thing alone would be enough to seal his legacy.

[to21]

I've seen the movie, yeah it had a lot of lies.

Especially of all the congressional hearing footage they doctored for the film.

:rolleyes

[Fabbs]

^^
T_Park is going to get back with us on the incriminating evidence against the movie. It's only been a year so far.
http://assets.kaboose.com/media/00/00/04/ab/62aa2a542305d673d7384afd87ebc8232bde16b8/476x357/Slideshow-Snickers_476x357.jpg