dumbfnck Christians planning to overthrow democracy, install fascist theocracy

[boutons_]

Christian Reconstructionists Are Trying to Take Dominion in America - and They Have Powerful Friends

By Jeremy Leaming

Church and State
Monday 02 July 2007
A recent conference held by American Vision, a radical ministry that toils away to "help Christians build a truly Biblical worldview," displayed the growing organization of the dangerous Reconstructionist movement.Tucked away a few miles off Interstate 40 just outside Asheville, N.C., the LifeWay Ridgecrest Conference Center provides Southern Baptists with a remote place to facilitate the nurturing of "Biblical Solutions for Life."

The sprawling 1,300-acre compound in the Blue Ridge Mountains is made up of chapels, a book store, café, guest housing, drab-colored brick buildings, fences topped with barbed wire and plenty of wooded grounds for religious contemplation or recreation. It is not easily or quickly located; its address cannot be found via a Google Maps search or traced on a Global Positioning System (GPS).

Despite its isolated location, during the last week of May hundreds of Religious Right activists and their families made their way there for a four-day "Worldview Super Conference." They came to hear fundamentalist Christian speakers rail about the nation's moral confusion, claim the public schools are bastions of secular humanism and warn that Christians, especially their type of Christians, are in danger of being persecuted by America.

( classic, just like Hitler. Persecution alleged where none exists. Get the people to strike out like cornered rats)

The gathering, dubbed "Preparing This Generation to Capture the Future," was hosted by American Vision, a ministry that has been toiling away since 1978 to "help Christians build a truly Biblical worldview." In a conference handout, American Vision states that "By God's grace, we will work together to make America a truly Christian nation for our children's children."

(invoking God, how can they possibly be wrong? )

Based in Powder Springs, Ga., American Vision also produces reams of material that push Christian Reconstructionism, a form of fundamentalism that argues for a re-writing of American history, dismantling secular democracy and constructing an America governed by "biblical law." Reconstructionists seek to impose the criminal code of the Old Testament, applying the death penalty for homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, witches, incorrigible juvenile delinquents and those who spread false religions.

( just like Muslim sharia. No longer religion or spiritual, Christain Reconstructionism is a political/material/power-grabbng fascism)

Despite its overtly radical theocratic agenda, American Vision is allied with some of the Religious Right's most powerful outfits. This year's conference was cosponsored by the Alliance Defense Fund, a well-funded Religious Right lawyers' outfit that James Dobson and other religious broadcasters helped create; Michael Farris's Home School Legal Defense Association; the late TV preacher Jerry Falwell's Liberty University School of Law; and World Magazine, Marvin Olasky's influential evangelical Christian periodical.

The event was promoted heavily by the Rev. Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition, and it was held in a facility owned by the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest non-Catholic denomination and a religious body closely aligned with the Bush administration.

In an opening prayer, American Vision President Gary DeMar set the stage for what would be a major theme running through the gathering: restoring the sovereignty of God and God's people - namely, folks like those at the conference.

"We know," said DeMar, "that you are a sovereign and omniscient God.... We know that you have called us to be responsible servants in the advancement of your kingdom through the proclamation of the gospel and the application of your word in every area of life."

Worldview speaker after speaker vacillated between decrying the nation as wildly secular and ready for a radical makeover led by fundamentalist Christians.

One of the first speakers, Gary Cass, offered a dire picture of a country that is doomed unless it embraces a rigid form of government led by fundamentalist Christian edicts.

"We need a new American vision," said Cass, former head of TV preacher D. James Kennedy's now-defunct Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, "because we've lost our biblical heritage, our Christian birthright, which has been given to us by our founders, we have squandered for a poisonous bowl of atheistic humanism and political correctness.

"And now our culture is experiencing its deadly effects," he continued. "The putrid stench of the culture of death fills our living rooms, coming to us every night on the evening news. And this Worldview weekend, I believe, is the antidote for the culture of death."

He continued, "By God's grace you are here to reclaim our godly heritage and to reassert, without apology to the atheists and the neo-pagans of our day, that this was and is a Christian nation, built on Christian ideals."

( Sig Heil! Sig Heil! Der Uber-Krist kommt ist! )

Cass's stark call for a fundamentalist Christian takeover of America was later followed by claims that the nation is increasingly hostile to religious people. To some chuckles from the audience, he insisted that the United States is in "great need of a Christian anti-defamation league."

"Defamation," Cass argued, "is the precursor to persecution." Defamation leads to marginalization, he continued, and marginalization sets the "stage for discrimination," which inevitably leads to the final stage of religious cleansing.

"Genocide being the ultimate expression," Cass declared, "the deliberate, systematic extermination of a group of people." Kind of like what is happening in Sudan's Darfur region, he added.

Other speakers brutally attacked the public school system and promoted home schooling and private Christian education. The Ridgecrest bookstore was full of materials offering curriculums for parents interested in escaping the public schools.

On the conference's first day, attendees gathered in Ridgecrest's Spilman Auditorium were treated to a lengthy rant against public schools by a Baptist preacher from Texas.

The Rev. Voddie Baucham Jr., pastor at Grace Family Baptist Church in Spring, Texas and founder of Voddie Baucham ministries, is indignant that so many "blood-washed" Christians choose to send their children to public schools. He boasted about his involvement in pushing a resolution before the Southern Baptists' annual convention that calls on church members to yank their kids from public schools.

"If we continue to send our children to Caesar for their education, we need to stop being surprised when they come home as Romans," Baucham said.

Baucham encouraged the gathering to do what his family does, which is to keep children at home and immerse them in religiosity. The towering pastor - virtually the only African-American at the conference - noted that his son Trey travels with him full time.

"Trey travels everywhere with me," he said. "Trey is 14 years old; I am his teacher. When our sons reach the age of 13, they go through a rite of passage; they enter into manhood. And when they enter into manhood, their mother closes up the books and hands them to me."

There are things that only a man can teach a man, Baucham said, though he did not elaborate other than to say that his son is his assistant now.

All the railing against public schools and other state-supported institutions has long been a focal point for Christian Reconstructionists, whose goal is a society where their harsh version of biblical law permeates everything. DeMar provided a platform for some of the movement's most radical voices.

On the second day, Doug Phillips, oldest son of long-time right-wing activist Howard Phillips, declared that God created the universe and the Bible is a history book for understanding God's design.

Phillips heads up a San Antonio-based group called Vision Forum that advocates for the "Biblical family." The organization is also a staunch supporter of home schooling and families where the men take precedence.

"If we encourage our daughters to pursue a careerist philosophy," the Vision Forum's mission statement reads, "if we fail to make our homes economically vital, hospitable centers for love and learning, we are hypocrites."

Phillips spent the next hour railing against what he said was a plot by secularists to write Christianity out of American history, concluding that "those who control history define the culture." Like other Worldview speakers, Phillips promoted removing kids from public schools and immersing them in fundamentalist Christian training.

Later in the day, DeMar introduced Gary North to the attendees, lauding him as "a mentor." North is a son-in-law of the late Rousas J. Rushdoony, who is widely touted as the founder of Christian Reconstructionism. North has written boatloads of books and articles about the need to establish "Christendom."

( these motherfuckers really have some weird-ass, ridiculous names. )

His plentiful material has left a track record of extremism. North has called for the death penalty, like Rushdoony did, for youngsters who curse their parents, gays and others who violate his interpretation of biblical law. He has argued that stoning is the preferred means of capital punishment, noting that it is a communal activity and "the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost." Writing for Reason magazine in 1998, Walter Olson observed that Reconstructionists like North "provide the most enthusiastic constituency for stoning since the Taliban seized Kabul."

North skipped stoning at his Worldview appearance and offered a strident rant against secularism. According to North, the universe is ordered by an all-powerful God who will ultimately dispose of all the "covenant-breakers." The so-called "covenant-keepers," on the other hand, will inherit the riches of the heavens.

Citing the Book of Genesis, North said, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now, that establishes God as the absolute authority, since he is the creator; since he is the creator, he is the owner of all of creation. And, therefore, absolutely sovereign over that creation."

( and these assholes appoint themselves, conveniently and enrichingly, as God's representative )

During his lengthy discussion, North conceded that his views have not been embraced by the public yet.

"Most of the people in this room are fringe people," North claimed to a hushed audience. "And not just 'kind of' fringe people, not just 'kind of' Christian evangelicals."

He added that the Worldview audience is on the fringe because it is in the forefront of the war against "Darwinism" and the secular culture.

"We really are on the extreme fringe of society today," North continued. "And that's our curse. And if we do our work well, and if the grace of God is on us, in retrospect that will be our blessing."

Many of the speakers blasted civil liberties organizations for supposedly waging an ongoing, aggressive effort to remove religion, Christianity in particular, from the public square.

DeMar specifically targeted the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, claiming that if those groups had their way God would be excised from "everything" in America. But thankfully, DeMar maintained, "there's a new sheriff" in town.

( cowboy-think, rurual, ignornant, dumbfuck, close-minded shit-kickers)

"The ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State," DeMar said, "really have a battle on their hands with organizations like the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF)."

DeMar praised ADF, a $25 million operation based in Scottsdale, Ariz., for training young lawyers to fight for a "biblical worldview." Two ADF representatives appeared before the Worldview audience and promoted the group's work to bring the legal system under Christian control.

Ken Fletcher, an ADF development director, insisted that America was "started on a biblical worldview," but has been wrenched from its religious moorings by secularists and "activist courts."

"Our Christian liberties are under attack in our nation," Fletcher maintained. "I guess back in the '60s it really got under attack, where the secular agenda really started replacing the Christian worldview that we had in our nation."

Besides home schooling and trying to convert people to their religious principles, Fletcher argued that the courts "cannot be left out of the equation." "The right to abort a baby came through the courts; prayer and the Bible taken out of the public schools, that all came through the courts," he maintained. "Homosexual marriage," Fletcher added also came through the courts.

So in 1994, an array of powerful fundamentalist broadcasters, such as James Dobson, D. James Kennedy and Bill Bright, got together to form the ADF, he said, because "if we don't start showing up in the courts, our religious liberty is going to be lost in this country."

( completely false, but these assholes deal in lies and agit prop, rousing the dumbed down rabble and sheeple with the sinister skills of corporate marketeers )

The conference also heard from Janet Folger, a former executive director of Kennedy's disbanded Center for Reclaiming America for Christ. Folger, who now heads a Religious Right lobbying group dubbed "Faith2Action," was especially ticked off at the new make-up of Congress, blasting it for supporting hate-crimes legislation. She is also seriously convinced that fundamentalist Christians are in danger of persecution in America.

( lie lie lie, but whatever lie boils your blood )

Folger, author of a book titled The Criminalization of Christianity, repeatedly attacked the "homosexual agenda" as one of the main driving forces against fundamentalist Christianity. Aping comments from Kennedy, she tagged gays as plotting to criminalize the Christian religion.

Folger said gays want to use hate-crimes legislation to "do away" with terms applied to homosexuality such as "abomination," which she noted is a word from Leviticus. The gays want to ban the Bible, according to Folger.

"If they can silence the truth," Folger said referring to gay lobbying groups like the Human Rights Campaign, "make no mistake, they will silence the gospel."

She then claimed that Canada, Sweden, England and France are already persecuting Christians who cite Bible passages in demonizing gays. America, she claimed, is following those nations' lead. (In fact, the hate-crimes legislation pending in Congress specifically protects speech and penalizes only hate-motivated violence.)

During her afternoon appearance, Folger said she sobbed and felt almost defeated when the U.S. House of Representatives passed hate-crimes legislation earlier this year.

We just need to bring "God back into this debate," Folger maintained. She argued that when large numbers of fundamentalist Christians get to the voting booth, good things will transpire and pointed to the election and re-election of President George W. Bush as evidence.

Folger urged attendees to be especially politically active in 2008, saying that they should not be lulled into believing that a "values voter" candidate cannot retain control of the White House.

Lauding the U.S. Supreme Court for upholding a federal ban on so-called "partial-birth" abortion, Folger maintained that Christians are "so close to winning this thing, of overturning Roe v. Wade."

"We are one judge away," she said.

Concluding her afternoon talk with a prayer for President Bush and for God to assert dominion over the land, she started to weep.

"I'm asking You how to take this land," she prayed, "and how to keep it until You come."

ADF Senior Vice President Jeff Ventrella trumpeted the work of his organization as one of the ways the nation can be returned to a biblical foundation. Ventrella bemoaned the secularization of society, claimed Christian children from coast to coast face harassment from public school teachers and officials and that the legal system must be used to fight back.

( lie lie lie )

For over an hour, Ventrella blathered on about the Apostle Paul and other characters from the Bible, declaring that "truth in the public square has stumbled." At one point in his rambling, angry talk, he warned that any "spies" amongst the Worldview gathering had better not misquote him.

The ADF attorney claimed that his organization exists, in part, to "do damage to evil. We must do damage to evil." Ventrella also asked the afternoon gathering whether they wanted to "win the world for Christ. We can't be on the sidelines," he said.

The evening featured one of the conference's oddest presentations. Gary Bates, head of Creation Ministries International, spoke for well over an hour about his recent book Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection.

In a nutshell, Bates contends that the UFOs some Americans claim to see are not space aliens, but rather angels. Some of those angels are good, he indicated, and some of them are bad. He said that Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, and the Muslim prophet Mohammed had both been visited by fallen angels.

The evening's biggest draw, however, was the debate between Americans United Executive Director Barry W. Lynn and Herb Titus, a former dean at TV preacher Pat Robertson's Regent University and former attorney for disgraced Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore. The two advocates sparred over whether the First Amendment prevents "a Bibically-Based Public Policy."

The ADF's Ventrella served as moderator of the exchange and told the audience that his role was to "be invisible." He apparently could not contain himself, however. Throughout, he chided Lynn for not asking a question of Titus quickly enough, said Lynn, not Titus, carried the burden in the debate and gave his own opinion of the question at the debate's conclusion.

Lynn told the 800 conferees what they didn't particularly want to hear.

"American public policy cannot be based," he said, "solely on the Bible, any more than it could be based solely on the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita.

"The laws that govern our daily lives," Lynn continued, "need to be based on commonly shared secular values, including those found in the Bill of Rights. Lawmakers take an oath, sometimes on a holy book even, to uphold the Constitution. They do not put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.

"Political leaders represent all Americans, Christian and otherwise," he said, "so yes, to base public policy on one constituency's religious text and, moreover, a particular interpretation of that text, would fly directly in the face of the First Amendment's guarantee that there will be no laws respecting, touching upon an establishment of religion."

Lynn's comments were the only words in a four-day talk-a-thon that promoted a free society.

The major theme of this year's Worldview conference was a call for an ongoing push by Christian fundamentalists to tear down democracy and replace it with theocracy. Far from being super, it was rather scary.

[Extra Stout]

If these people ever seriously got close to taking over America, I would take up arms against them, but really, there are more Communists in the US than there are Christian Reconstructionists.

The Dominionists were more of a threat, but they already shot their wad.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

boutons bot strikes again.

[01Snake]

boutons bot strikes again.


:lol

[Duff McCartney]

The same arguement could be made for Jews and Christians. Just like Rabbi Meir Kahane...who was a racist fool.

[Spurminator]

I'm sorry, did I miss the part about the overthrow?

Damn, boutons, it's ridiculously over-the-top takes like yours that give credibility to these people's claims of oppression. I know you're proudly flaunting your descent into self-parody, but this is just silly.

[gtownspur]

I hope Jerry Falwell takes a phantom cleveland on Boutons from the grave..

[boutons_]

"By God's grace, we will work together to make America a truly Christian nation for our children's children."

"promoted the group's work to bring the legal system under Christian control."

"The major theme of this year's Worldview conference was a call for an ongoing push by Christian fundamentalists to tear down democracy and replace it with theocracy."

The people are irresponsible, violent nut-cases with persecution complexes.
They sound just like Hitler and National Socialists of 1930s Germany.

[gtownspur]

I hope Jerry Falwell takes a phantom cleveland on Boutons from the grave..

[Spurminator]

"By God's grace, we will work together to make America a truly Christian nation for our children's children."

"promoted the group's work to bring the legal system under Christian control."

"The major theme of this year's Worldview conference was a call for an ongoing push by Christian fundamentalists to tear down democracy and replace it with theocracy."

The people are irresponsible, violent nut-cases with persecution complexes.
They sound just like Hitler and National Socialists of 1930s Germany.


Yes, look at all of the violent language. I especially like the one about exterminating the inferior races.

And that last quote is the author's words.

Only YOU could make these people look level-headed by comparison.

[xrayzebra]

"By God's grace, we will work together to make America a truly Christian nation for our children's children."

"promoted the group's work to bring the legal system under Christian control."

"The major theme of this year's Worldview conference was a call for an ongoing push by Christian fundamentalists to tear down democracy and replace it with theocracy."

The people are irresponsible, violent nut-cases with persecution complexes.
They sound just like Hitler and National Socialists of 1930s Germany.


Just hang in there boutons, your religion of communism
isn't dead yet. There is always hope for you. You have
the dimm-o-craps on your side in most matters. And
you have the religion of "global warming" and "mother
earth" working for you. I am sure you give them a
nice donation every year or should.

[RighteousBoy]

And yet when a religion trains, and funds its followers to hi-jack planes and fly them into buildings killing thousands, there is no outrage.

[Spurminator]

I wonder if boutons sees the irony in comparing people to Hitler as he plays up an eventual takeover by a religious group.

Better start rounding those Christians up before they start forcing their theocracy on us.

[clambake]

And yet when a religion trains, and funds its followers to hi-jack planes and fly them into buildings killing thousands, there is no outrage.
Try to remember where the hi-jackers came from, and what country has Bush in their pocket.

[boutons_]

The methods Hitler used worked to take over Germany (this is not to say they were exclusively, originally Hitler's methods). Nobody rounded up National Socialists, but obviously, the way National Socialism ended up, it would have been better if the "good" Germans, instead a quiescence that led to the destruction of their country, had stopped National Socialism early.

The nut-fringe "Christian" right is using the same rabble/sheeple-inflammatory, demagogic, methods:

"Christians" are a persecuted group that must defend themselves (violence is not precluded),

their "Christian" children are persecuted and prevented from practicing their "religion",

minorities (gays, who were also a big target of Hitler) are targeting their "Christianity" for destruction, and therefore must be destroyed.

The current govt and legal needs to overthrown and replaced with Christian "Reich".

"last quote is the author's words."

yes, and it synosizes the quotes of several of the speakers, and then there was the blatant threat"

"Ventrella .... warned that any "spies" amongst the Worldview gathering had better not misquote him."

Obviously, the reporter did not agree with conference. Please point out the lies in his reporting of what was said at the conference. Perhaps the anger, hate, and vitriol spewe by these motherfuckers was only 1% of what was said (but who invited them to spew their shit?) and 99% of the conference was about Christ's message of peace and love and tolerance of the NT.

[Spurminator]

The methods Hitler used worked to take over Germany (this is not to say they were exclusively, originally Hitler's methods). Nobody rounded up National Socialists, but obviously, the way National Socialism ended up, it would have been better if the "good" Germans, instead a quiescence that led to the destruction of their country, had stopped National Socialism early.

Slippery slope scaremongering.

Anyway, what do you suggest we do with these people? How do we protect ourselves from their crazy ideas?


"Christians" are a persecuted group that must defend themselves (violence is not precluded),

Link to the part about violence?


The current govt and legal needs to overthrown and replaced with Christian "Reich".

Link to the overthrow?


yes, and it synosizes the quotes of several of the speakers, and then there was the blatant threat"

"Ventrella .... warned that any "spies" amongst the Worldview gathering had better not misquote him."

Obviously, the reporter did not agree with conference. Please point out the lies in his reporting of what was said at the conference. Perhaps the anger, hate, and vitriol spewe by these motherfuckers was only 1% of what was said (but who invited them to spew their shit?) and 99% of the conference was about Christ's message of peace and love and tolerance of the NT.


I didn't say he lied. What I am saying is that he's using words like "overthrow" and "dangerous" to describe a group of people who, while misguided, are working within the scope of democracy. He, and you, are implying that there is some kind of violent hostile takeover in the works.

Plenty of groups meet to talk about how they are persecuted and how they can end that persecution by voting for like-minded candidates on election day. Religious, ethnic, union... They're not all the second coming of the Nazis.

[Extra Stout]

Spurminator,

Clearly, since there are a couple of hundred professing Christians who are calling for an end to representative government, we need to root all Christians out of public life, lest we become like Nazi Germany.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"By God's grace, we will work together to make America a truly Christian nation for our children's children."

"promoted the group's work to bring the legal system under Christian control."

"The major theme of this year's Worldview conference was a call for an ongoing push by Christian fundamentalists to tear down democracy and replace it with theocracy."

The people are irresponsible, violent nut-cases with persecution complexes.
They sound just like Hitler and National Socialists of 1930s Germany.

So where's your outrage over radical Muslims? All you and Dan have done the last 3 years on this forum is high five each other every time an American troop dies fighting AQ or insurgents in Iraq.

You do realize we're fighting an ideology that insists you convert to its religion or die, right? You are one hypocritical son of a bitch.

And these people will never take control here in America, there's too much focus nationally on equality in race, sex, and religion.

But by all means, carry on with your stupid ass cut and paste drama queen shit, it's about all you can do on this site other than utter one profanity after another.

[td4mvp21]

So where's your outrage over radical Muslims? All you and Dan have done the last 3 years on this forum is high five each other every time an American troop dies fighting AQ or insurgents in Iraq.

You do realize we're fighting an ideology that insists you convert to its religion or die, right? You are one hypocritical son of a bitch.

And these people will never take control here in America, there's too much focus nationally on equality in race, sex, and religion.

But by all means, carry on with your stupid ass cut and paste drama queen shit, it's about all you can do on this site other than utter one profanity after another.

:clap

Thank you!!

[boutons_]

"So where's your outrage over radical Muslims?"

What do Muslims have to do with this thread? Can't address the subject so you change it? typical, predictable fuckup between your ears.

"high five each other every time an American troop dies fighting AQ or insurgents in Iraq."

absolute lie. I never supported the bullshit war in Iraq, and I've always every drop of blood that dickhead and dubya is a waste.

You murderous war mongers think it's great, honorable to lose US "heroes" in Iraq. The US military dying in Iraq are suckers, suckered by dubya and dickhead and the rich and coprs into dying for oil and the MIC, NOT for US security.

Where's your outrage about the lies leading up to the Iraq war?

Where's your outrage at the mind-boggling incompetence in the conduct of the war by your neo-cunt buddies?

"You do realize we're fighting an ideology that insists you convert to its religion or die, right"

The Reconstructionists are fighting Islam? Sounds like they are fighting gays and non-Christians here in the USA, although I'm sure peaceful Muslims are on their hit list.

What does "(terrorist) ideology"that have to do with this thread? The radical assholes of this article very clearly don't tolerate weenie Christians who don't share their radical ideology.

Fuck you, dickless Aggie twerp. Care to address the radical, violent assholes in the article? I didn't think so. And why isn't your chickenshit ass over in Iraq today? You're like all the other conservatives in the Us, letting the poor US military suckers spill their blood so you can parade around with your fake macho, badass posturing?

[td4mvp21]

"So where's your outrage over radical Muslims?"

What do Muslims have to do with this thread? Can't address the subject so you change it? typical, predictable fuckup between your ears.


Because you said: "The people are irresponsible, violent nut-cases with persecution complexes." I'm assuming that you meant Christians. Anyway, it's total bullshit that you say that. The radical followers of what religion blow themselves up, kill innocent people, and commit terror attacks on nations that aren't the same religion as them? Muslims. There, I answered it for you. Christians don't want anything but peace; I understand that you don't agree with Christian beliefs and don't want Christians to "take over" America. That's fine, but seriously, you're ranting about something that isn't even true. There won't be such a thing, because too many people in America follow a different religion than Christianity. Christians may indeed be judgemental, and press their beliefs on people too much, but they certainly do not attempt to kill people because they disagree with them. Not even the "radical" Christians. I'd be more worried about the Islamic terrorists in this country right now, than I would Christians.

[xrayzebra]

Where's your outrage about the lies leading up to the Iraq war?

Well boutons, which lies are you talking about?
Those uttered by Clinton, both Billary and Bill. Or those
uttered by Kerry. Since they are the same lies Bush
used to enter the war. How many times does someone
have to give you the facts?




The US military dying in Iraq are suckers, suckered by dubya and dickhead and the rich and coprs into dying for oil and the MIC, NOT for US security.

Want to tell me one more time how you support our
"suckers" in Iraq. You simple minded fool!


The Reconstructionists are fighting Islam? Sounds like they are fighting gays and non-Christians here in the USA, although I'm sure peaceful Muslims are on their hit list.

Sounds to me like you are trying to equate civil rights
to "sexual rights". Gays defend only one thing, their
right to have sex their way. It has nothing to do with
civil rights. They as citizens have all the rights of
anyone else, including their sexual freedom. They
want to live with their own sex, be my guest. Just
don't try to pretend to be a family. They aren't. They
cant procreate. That is a fact. You can call yourself
a family, but it don't make you one.


Fuck you, dickless Aggie twerp. Care to address the radical, violent assholes in the article? I didn't think so. And why isn't your chickenshit ass over in Iraq today? You're like all the other conservatives in the Us, letting the poor US military suckers spill their blood so you can parade around with your fake macho, badass posturing?

Read the second sentence in the above quote and tell me
who is the violent part you address.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think you broke the forum, Xray.

[xrayzebra]

What can I say.

I'm sorry!

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/ImSorry.jpg

[Yonivore]

Way to go Xray...

[Duff McCartney]

The radical followers of what religion blow themselves up, kill innocent people, and commit terror attacks on nations that aren't the same religion as them? Muslims.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/

The same case could me made for Judaism. As well as Christians. I wouldn't at all be worried about Muslim terrorists. They don't scare me in the least...because I have nothing to fear from them. I didn't do anything to a single Muslim on earth.

I'd be more afraid of these radical Christians because not only are they already over in America...there are an alarming number of them who have power in our government. That is more terrifying than terrorist half the world away.

[Yonivore]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/

The same case could me made for Judaism. As well as Christians. I wouldn't at all be worried about Muslim terrorists. They don't scare me in the least...because I have nothing to fear from them. I didn't do anything to a single Muslim on earth.
So, you've converted to Islam then, have you, infidel?


I'd be more afraid of these radical Christians because not only are they already over in America...there are an alarming number of them who have power in our government. That is more terrifying than terrorist half the world away.
You're an idiot...just like Nbadan.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"So where's your outrage over radical Muslims?"

What do Muslims have to do with this thread? Can't address the subject so you change it? typical, predictable fuckup between your ears.


I did address the subject. I said 'these people will never take over in America, there is too much focus on equity in race, sex, and religion.'

Try reading comprehension, it's a great thing dumbass.

And as to Muslims, seeings you are dumber than a block of rocks, it is what is called a comparison. You come in here like Michael Moore on the fucking rag whining about some idle talk by psycho Christians, yet I never see you shitting a brick about radical Islam, which is the number one thread to the western civilized world.

So, my comparison is valid, and you are still a hypocritical liberal little bitch.



You murderous war mongers think it's great, honorable to lose US "heroes" in Iraq.


First, I'm not murderous. Second, not a war monger. Third, I don't think it's great, I think it sucks. I went to D.C. for a wedding a couple of weeks ago and it was all military folks. While we were there one of the people at the wedding got a message about one of their proteges over in Iraq and how they had lost two troops under their command that day in fighting.

We all said a little prayer for them, and tears were shed. That shit hits home and you feel it in your heart, and if you don't, you're boutons.

But we're at war with an ideology who wants us all dead. And the reality is that people are going to die in this war.

What's worse, dumbfucks like you think that if we wouldn't have gone to Afghanistan or Iraq that this all would have gone away, that Osama and people like him would have left America alone.

The shitty thing is you are fucking clueless when it comes to that idea, and I can only hope that when your chump ass finally graduates high school that you'll get enough of an education somewhere to see the bigger picture.

This isn't some pissant little war. This isn't about oil. This isn't about making W. rich or whatever stupid shit you're spouting.

Go do some reading about the Crusades and the Muslim Conquests. That shit never ended, it just took a break while the world went through the industrial revolution and then fought two wars.

It started back up again long before 9/11, and it won't stop in your or my lifetimes, unless enough bad shit goes down that it reaches critical mass and the U.S. along with several other modernized, western societies lose enough lives through terror attacks that they say fuck it, hit the little red button, nuke all of the Middle East and northern Africa, and start the fuck over.

But thanks to pansy asses like you and Dan who think we can just go put our heads in a hole in the ground and wait for radical Islam to go away, we're going to sit around and let them bleed us until they get impatient and do something stupid and nuke an American or European city.

Then the gloves will come off, and we might actually do something to nip this shit in the bud. It took a whole lot of Muslims meeting their 72 virgins for the Conquests to stop, and that's where this is all headed again.




Where's your outrage about the lies leading up to the Iraq war?


What lies? We went on the best intel we had. It turned out to be wrong. That happens sometimes.



Where's your outrage at the mind-boggling incompetence in the conduct of the war by your neo-cunt buddies?


You were too busy stroking off to Osama's speeches to notice. I've been pretty critical on here before of Cheney, and more particularly Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was a dumb son of a bitch and was in over his head. Thankfully Bush got rid of him and brought in Gates. Best idea Bush has had in a while.



The Reconstructionists are fighting Islam? Sounds like they are fighting gays and non-Christians here in the USA, although I'm sure peaceful Muslims are on their hit list.

Where did I say that about Reconstructionists? I know you're dumb, but come on. And there isn't a such thing as a peaceful Muslim, according to the Qur'an.


The US military dying in Iraq are suckers, suckered by dubya and dickhead and the rich and coprs into dying for oil and the MIC, NOT for US security.

Suckers? Wow, that is low, even for you. I wish you and I were in the same room right now because I'd beat the leaving fuck out of you for talking about our military like that.

You are a disrespectful, hateful, spiteful little cunt and you don't deserve the privilege of having the U.S. military fight for the freedom that you enjoy when you talk shit like that.



What does "(terrorist) ideology"that have to do with this thread? The radical assholes of this article very clearly don't tolerate weenie Christians who don't share their radical ideology.


Um, where did I say terrorist ideology? I was talking about radical religous ideology, same as your dumb ass. Too bad you're only a sophomore in HS, or you might have enough knowledge to make the connection.




Fuck you, dickless Aggie twerp. Care to address the radical, violent assholes in the article? I didn't think so.

I addressed it you dumb shit.


And these people will never take control here in America, there's too much focus nationally on equality in race, sex, and religion.

Try reading sometime.




And why isn't your chickenshit ass over in Iraq today? You're like all the other conservatives in the Us, letting the poor US military suckers spill their blood so you can parade around with your fake macho, badass posturing?

:lol You are such a dick. Why am I not in Iraq? Why aren't you in Iraq with a bomb strapped to your damn chest if you hate Bush and our military so much?

I know lots of liberal folks who support our military and what we're doing in Iraq as well.

I don't parade around with anything, and there's nothing fake about my posturing. I do call out chump ass bitches like you for being uninformed, educated little sheep that rely on blogs and articles from liberal internet rags to form some semblance of an opinion about what's going on.

Damn you are a pathetic little fuck, looks like home schooling isn't working out for you.

[mookie2001]

so youre FOR the war AND tollroads?

[td4mvp21]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/

The same case could me made for Judaism. As well as Christians. I wouldn't at all be worried about Muslim terrorists. They don't scare me in the least...because I have nothing to fear from them. I didn't do anything to a single Muslim on earth.

I'd be more afraid of these radical Christians because not only are they already over in America...there are an alarming number of them who have power in our government. That is more terrifying than terrorist half the world away.

That land is promised to the Israelites by God (according to their religion). Why on earth would they give it up? Also, again I ask, what religion tells its followers to preach by the sword?

And just because you didn't do anything to a single Muslim on earth means absolutely nothing to radical Muslims. They don't give a fuck about you or your loved ones. They'd blow you or them up in a heartbeat, just because you're American and different. Do you not watch the news? They are using spoofs of Mickey Mouse to teach children to kill Americans/infidels. They have training camps for YOUNG CHILDREN to blow themselves up, all to get to heaven. Watch the damn news and think about things before you go running your mouth. They don't give a shit if you're "open minded" and "accepting" of their religion; if you're not Muslim, you're the enemy and must either convert or die. I wish I was as foolish as you, I wouldn't be scared of Islamic terrorists at all.

[The Cougar]

Everybody be hatin on the Jesus folk.

[xrayzebra]

I did address the subject. I said 'these people will never take over in America, there is too much focus on equity in race, sex, and religion.'

Try reading comprehension, it's a great thing dumbass.

And as to Muslims, seeings you are dumber than a block of rocks, it is what is called a comparison. You come in here like Michael Moore on the fucking rag whining about some idle talk by psycho Christians, yet I never see you shitting a brick about radical Islam, which is the number one thread to the western civilized world.

So, my comparison is valid, and you are still a hypocritical liberal little bitch.



First, I'm not murderous. Second, not a war monger. Third, I don't think it's great, I think it sucks. I went to D.C. for a wedding a couple of weeks ago and it was all military folks. While we were there one of the people at the wedding got a message about one of their proteges over in Iraq and how they had lost two troops under their command that day in fighting.

We all said a little prayer for them, and tears were shed. That shit hits home and you feel it in your heart, and if you don't, you're boutons.

But we're at war with an ideology who wants us all dead. And the reality is that people are going to die in this war.

What's worse, dumbfucks like you think that if we wouldn't have gone to Afghanistan or Iraq that this all would have gone away, that Osama and people like him would have left America alone.

The shitty thing is you are fucking clueless when it comes to that idea, and I can only hope that when your chump ass finally graduates high school that you'll get enough of an education somewhere to see the bigger picture.

This isn't some pissant little war. This isn't about oil. This isn't about making W. rich or whatever stupid shit you're spouting.

Go do some reading about the Crusades and the Muslim Conquests. That shit never ended, it just took a break while the world went through the industrial revolution and then fought two wars.

It started back up again long before 9/11, and it won't stop in your or my lifetimes, unless enough bad shit goes down that it reaches critical mass and the U.S. along with several other modernized, western societies lose enough lives through terror attacks that they say fuck it, hit the little red button, nuke all of the Middle East and northern Africa, and start the fuck over.

But thanks to pansy asses like you and Dan who think we can just go put our heads in a hole in the ground and wait for radical Islam to go away, we're going to sit around and let them bleed us until they get impatient and do something stupid and nuke an American or European city.

Then the gloves will come off, and we might actually do something to nip this shit in the bud. It took a whole lot of Muslims meeting their 72 virgins for the Conquests to stop, and that's where this is all headed again.




What lies? We went on the best intel we had. It turned out to be wrong. That happens sometimes.



You were too busy stroking off to Osama's speeches to notice. I've been pretty critical on here before of Cheney, and more particularly Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was a dumb son of a bitch and was in over his head. Thankfully Bush got rid of him and brought in Gates. Best idea Bush has had in a while.



Where did I say that about Reconstructionists? I know you're dumb, but come on. And there isn't a such thing as a peaceful Muslim, according to the Qur'an.



Suckers? Wow, that is low, even for you. I wish you and I were in the same room right now because I'd beat the leaving fuck out of you for talking about our military like that.

You are a disrespectful, hateful, spiteful little cunt and you don't deserve the privilege of having the U.S. military fight for the freedom that you enjoy when you talk shit like that.



Um, where did I say terrorist ideology? I was talking about radical religous ideology, same as your dumb ass. Too bad you're only a sophomore in HS, or you might have enough knowledge to make the connection.




I addressed it you dumb shit.



Try reading sometime.




:lol You are such a dick. Why am I not in Iraq? Why aren't you in Iraq with a bomb strapped to your damn chest if you hate Bush and our military so much?

I know lots of liberal folks who support our military and what we're doing in Iraq as well.

I don't parade around with anything, and there's nothing fake about my posturing. I do call out chump ass bitches like you for being uninformed, educated little sheep that rely on blogs and articles from liberal internet rags to form some semblance of an opinion about what's going on.

Damn you are a pathetic little fuck, looks like home schooling isn't working out for you.

Well said. :clap

[gtownspur]

so youre FOR the war AND tollroads?


What about bukkakes?

[mookie2001]

seems to be a correlation

[johnsmith]

I did address the subject. I said 'these people will never take over in America, there is too much focus on equity in race, sex, and religion.'

Try reading comprehension, it's a great thing dumbass.

And as to Muslims, seeings you are dumber than a block of rocks, it is what is called a comparison. You come in here like Michael Moore on the fucking rag whining about some idle talk by psycho Christians, yet I never see you shitting a brick about radical Islam, which is the number one thread to the western civilized world.

So, my comparison is valid, and you are still a hypocritical liberal little bitch.



First, I'm not murderous. Second, not a war monger. Third, I don't think it's great, I think it sucks. I went to D.C. for a wedding a couple of weeks ago and it was all military folks. While we were there one of the people at the wedding got a message about one of their proteges over in Iraq and how they had lost two troops under their command that day in fighting.

We all said a little prayer for them, and tears were shed. That shit hits home and you feel it in your heart, and if you don't, you're boutons.

But we're at war with an ideology who wants us all dead. And the reality is that people are going to die in this war.

What's worse, dumbfucks like you think that if we wouldn't have gone to Afghanistan or Iraq that this all would have gone away, that Osama and people like him would have left America alone.

The shitty thing is you are fucking clueless when it comes to that idea, and I can only hope that when your chump ass finally graduates high school that you'll get enough of an education somewhere to see the bigger picture.

This isn't some pissant little war. This isn't about oil. This isn't about making W. rich or whatever stupid shit you're spouting.

Go do some reading about the Crusades and the Muslim Conquests. That shit never ended, it just took a break while the world went through the industrial revolution and then fought two wars.

It started back up again long before 9/11, and it won't stop in your or my lifetimes, unless enough bad shit goes down that it reaches critical mass and the U.S. along with several other modernized, western societies lose enough lives through terror attacks that they say fuck it, hit the little red button, nuke all of the Middle East and northern Africa, and start the fuck over.

But thanks to pansy asses like you and Dan who think we can just go put our heads in a hole in the ground and wait for radical Islam to go away, we're going to sit around and let them bleed us until they get impatient and do something stupid and nuke an American or European city.

Then the gloves will come off, and we might actually do something to nip this shit in the bud. It took a whole lot of Muslims meeting their 72 virgins for the Conquests to stop, and that's where this is all headed again.




What lies? We went on the best intel we had. It turned out to be wrong. That happens sometimes.



You were too busy stroking off to Osama's speeches to notice. I've been pretty critical on here before of Cheney, and more particularly Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was a dumb son of a bitch and was in over his head. Thankfully Bush got rid of him and brought in Gates. Best idea Bush has had in a while.



Where did I say that about Reconstructionists? I know you're dumb, but come on. And there isn't a such thing as a peaceful Muslim, according to the Qur'an.



Suckers? Wow, that is low, even for you. I wish you and I were in the same room right now because I'd beat the leaving fuck out of you for talking about our military like that.

You are a disrespectful, hateful, spiteful little cunt and you don't deserve the privilege of having the U.S. military fight for the freedom that you enjoy when you talk shit like that.



Um, where did I say terrorist ideology? I was talking about radical religous ideology, same as your dumb ass. Too bad you're only a sophomore in HS, or you might have enough knowledge to make the connection.




I addressed it you dumb shit.



Try reading sometime.




:lol You are such a dick. Why am I not in Iraq? Why aren't you in Iraq with a bomb strapped to your damn chest if you hate Bush and our military so much?

I know lots of liberal folks who support our military and what we're doing in Iraq as well.

I don't parade around with anything, and there's nothing fake about my posturing. I do call out chump ass bitches like you for being uninformed, educated little sheep that rely on blogs and articles from liberal internet rags to form some semblance of an opinion about what's going on.

Damn you are a pathetic little fuck, looks like home schooling isn't working out for you.


Bump, but only since Boutons hasn't responded to the above "virtual bitch slap".

Quit starting new threads and reply Bitchtons.

[Spurminator]

I'm still waiting to hear what needs to be done about these crazy Christians to prevent the next Reich.

[boutons_]

The FBI and NYC police were all over peaceful, legitimate protesters at the 2003 Repug nominating conventions, for months before,during, after. FBI was also all over militiamen and Koresh fools.

I would expect no less a violation of civil rights by the FBI against these Christian nutcases, but I expect the FBI won't touch evangelical Christians who talk about infilrating and skewing federal govt, who talk about stoning and execution of gays.

[Spurminator]

"All over" how?

Be specific. What needs to be done?

[Duff McCartney]

So, you've converted to Islam then, have you, infidel?

No I haven't...and I never would. Just as I never would conver to Christianity. But I know enough about Islam and the Koran to know that these terrorists aren't "Muslims".

I notice some people hate it when you generalize all Spurs fans..but they have no problem doing it to all Muslims or another culture different from theirs. Again I'm not saying all of them....but some do.

[Duff McCartney]

That land is promised to the Israelites by God (according to their religion). Why on earth would they give it up? Also, again I ask, what religion tells its followers to preach by the sword?

None...that I know of. But that hasn't stopped people Jew, Christian, and Muslim alike from trying to preach it by the sword. But tell me where in the Koran it states to preach by the sword.


They have training camps for YOUNG CHILDREN to blow themselves up, all to get to heaven. Watch the damn news and think about things before you go running your mouth.

They have pretty much the same thing in America...or haven't you seen Jesus Camp? Little kids calling themselves "warriors of god" doesn't fill me with optimism.

[Spurminator]

They have pretty much the same thing in America...or haven't you seen Jesus Camp? Little kids calling themselves "warriors of god" doesn't fill me with optimism.

Uh, that's not the same thing.

It's one thing to argue against the generalization of Muslims, but don't weaken your argument by equating terrorist camps with "Jesus Camp."

[Duff McCartney]

Uh, that's not the same thing.

It's one thing to argue against the generalization of Muslims, but don't weaken your argument by equating terrorist camps with "Jesus Camp."

In my eyes, it's all the same thing. It will take only a nudge to push the "Jesus Camp" crowd into the same crowd as the terrorist camps.

[Extra Stout]

There already are "Christian" terrorists in this country. They aren't the "Jesus Camp" crowd, however. Those kids grow up to be nice little Pentecostals who faithfully obey whenever their pastor tells them who to vote for.

The "Christian" terrorists are the anti-government groups who hide out in Idaho, and in the South, mostly. Timothy McVeigh was one of them. They aren't as dangerous in the present day as the Muslim terrorists, because they aren't underwritten by wealthy oil princes.

If you pay attention to the news, though, every once in while you will hear about one of their plots being broken up, but because they aren't swarthy "others," it's not as sensational for the media.

[Spurminator]

Then I don't know where your eyes have been. Let me know when these Christian camps start training kids to use assault weapons and build bombs.

But anyway, if they're that big of a threat, what should we do about them?

[td4mvp21]

None...that I know of. But that hasn't stopped people Jew, Christian, and Muslim alike from trying to preach it by the sword. But tell me where in the Koran it states to preach by the sword.

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - Sura 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - Sura 4:89

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - Sura 5:54

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - Sura 9:29

Should I quote any more verses to your liking?



They have pretty much the same thing in America...or haven't you seen Jesus Camp? Little kids calling themselves "warriors of god" doesn't fill me with optimism.

Give me a break. Everyone knows the Bible preaches love, humility, and wholesome things. That's almost laughable to insinuate that Jesus Camp is the same as terrorist camps. Do we have videos in those camps teaching children to commit suicide bombings and kill people who don't believe in Jesus? If so, let me know and I'll apologize for being terribly wrong.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

instead of just insulting boutons i think some of you should read that article again. I live right down the road from regent university (pat robertson's school) and i can tell you, this movement is real, and its a lot larger than you all seem to think. Frankly they're right when they say that they can get politicans elected, look at bush and the whole republican revolution.

there is some scary stuff in that article. (check out the stoning portion for instince---scary!!!)

[Spurminator]

So what should be done about them before we become Nazi Germany?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

So what should be done about them before we become Nazi Germany?


i dont know-- honestly, how do you engage this kind of thinking? that's a question that i would seriously like answered though-- how can this kind of movement be stopped?

obviously they have a right to assemble and a right to speak, so they're views have to be permitted, the question is, how does one change these views?

[DarkReign]

i dont know-- honestly, how do you engage this kind of thinking?

You dont. You eliminate it.

[Spurminator]

Apparently the current strategy is to further isolate them from the mainstream by calling them Nazis and exaggerating their intentions.

Their loony-ness stands on its own. And there's nothing wrong with reporting on it... in fact, it should be reported on.

But save the "overthrow" talk until there's actual talk of an overthrow.

[PixelPusher]

i dont know-- honestly, how do you engage this kind of thinking? that's a question that i would seriously like answered though-- how can this kind of movement be stopped?

obviously they have a right to assemble and a right to speak, so they're views have to be permitted, the question is, how does one change these views?
I tend to view this as "they're more organized and political", not "they're growing in number"...their religious world views require and exceptional effort on their part to insulate themselves from an increasingly secular world; that doesn't make for a sustainable movement in a free society.

[clambake]

nothing a little prayer can't handle.

[Jamtas#2]

"dumbfnck Christians planning to overthrow democracy, install fascist theocracy "

You know for someone who complains incessently about the Bush Administration and how bad republicans are (I'm not one), this kind of thread topic is just disgusting. Would you be calling for Yoni or Xray's heads if they posted a topic like
"dumbfnck Jews( or Muslims/Liberals/Women/etc) planning to overthrow democracy, install fascist theocracy"
That kind of intolerance and hate is disgusting. You're not gaining any new supporters with your angry curse laden tirades either. If your point is to influence and change minds on this board (I can't think of any other reason to engage in debates here if you aren't) you are doing a poor job of it.

[DarkReign]

"dumbfnck Christians planning to overthrow democracy, install fascist theocracy "

You know for someone who complains incessently about the Bush Administration and how bad republicans are (I'm not one), this kind of thread topic is just disgusting. Would you be calling for Yoni or Xray's heads if they posted a topic like
"dumbfnck Jews( or Muslims/Liberals/Women/etc) planning to overthrow democracy, install fascist theocracy"
That kind of intolerance and hate is disgusting. You're not gaining any new supporters with your angry curse laden tirades either. If your point is to influence and change minds on this board (I can't think of any other reason to engage in debates here if you aren't) you are doing a poor job of it.

Boutons does a poor job of gaining "supporters" no matter what he/she says.

Its not that boutons is stupid or ignorant or even wrong, its that the vitriol that is constantly spewed in every post outweighs whatever fact lies within.

He would be a better speech-contributor than mouthpiece.

[Duff McCartney]

Give me a break. Everyone knows the Bible preaches love, humility, and wholesome things.

You must be joking...

Isaiah 1:20 "But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

Isaiah 1:21 "Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies."

Jeremiah 21: "And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath."

That doesn't sound much like love, humility, and wholesome things. It speaks also of the sword, anger, fury, and vengeance.

Look man this is just a pissing contest and we're not gonna win. I know all the quotes I have are taken out of context just like the ones you have are also taken out of context. Let's just disagree...it's easy to make generalizations...but I never made any about Christianity like you did about Islam.

I know that both books say some messed up things..and it's not all love and peace.

[boutons_]

The OT was rendered "inoperative" by Jesus and his NT revolution.

[Yonivore]

You must be joking...

Isaiah 1:20 "But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

Isaiah 1:21 "Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies."

Jeremiah 21: "And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath."

That doesn't sound much like love, humility, and wholesome things. It speaks also of the sword, anger, fury, and vengeance.

Look man this is just a pissing contest and we're not gonna win. I know all the quotes I have are taken out of context just like the ones you have are also taken out of context. Let's just disagree...it's easy to make generalizations...but I never made any about Christianity like you did about Islam.

I know that both books say some messed up things..and it's not all love and peace.
Got any New Testament references?

[td4mvp21]

You must be joking...

Isaiah 1:20 "But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

Isaiah 1:21 "Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies."

Jeremiah 21: "And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath."

That doesn't sound much like love, humility, and wholesome things. It speaks also of the sword, anger, fury, and vengeance.

Look man this is just a pissing contest and we're not gonna win. I know all the quotes I have are taken out of context just like the ones you have are also taken out of context. Let's just disagree...it's easy to make generalizations...but I never made any about Christianity like you did about Islam.

I know that both books say some messed up things..and it's not all love and peace.

None of those verses imply or state to preach by the sword. Show me some verses that do the latter. And I know for a fact that you need to read the whole passage before just quoting those verses.

Here, I'll post the verses before the ones you posted:

Isaiah 15-20:

"...Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. Come now, let us reason together (says the Lord),. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land, but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword."
Sounds like God is trying to correct a corrupt people and make them moral. Maybe I'm interpreting wrong?

Isaiah 1:21 does not say what you stated....

In Jeremiah 21, again, God is angry because of the evil and corruption taking place.

Also, you did generalize Christianity, just as I "generalized Islam". You stated/implied that Jesus camps were the equivalent of terrorist camps...so all people who go to Jesus camps are terrorists? Sounds like a generalization to me. And I wouldn't say any of my arguement contains a generalization; we are talking about a religion (Islam) that tells its followers to preach by the sword, fight those who believe different, and that Christians/Jews are the enemies. The Muslims who don't act like that technically aren't being good Muslims, according to their bible, the Koran. In the verses I quoted, it specifically established that anyone who befriends Christians/Jews and does not fight them is an abomination to Allah. What more do you want? Islam was intended for its followers to preach by the sword, and from what I've read about it, it advocates nothing but violence. Thankfully not all Muslims are violent and hateful; however, it is ironic that many want peace when their religion clearly tells them differently....

And could you show me the verses before the ones I quoted?

[possessed]

You dont. You eliminate it.
Or ignore it. There are all kinds of radical fringe groups in this country, from the KKK to Aryan Nations, to Black Panthers to the Earth Liberation Front. None are big enough or important enough to make a huge difference in recent history. History also proves than most Americans are somewhere in the middle of left and right and far away from the fringe. There's always going to be nut jobs. Just ignore 'em.

[Duff McCartney]

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - Sura 5:54

Where exactly did you find this translation?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

That page has three different translations...and none of them say anything about Jew or Christian.

[Duff McCartney]

Also, you did generalize Christianity, just as I "generalized Islam". You stated/implied that Jesus camps were the equivalent of terrorist camps...so all people who go to Jesus camps are terrorists? Sounds like a generalization to me.

I didn't say they were equivalent...but I did say that it's pretty much like that. It would take only a nudge to make them as radical as some of these terrorists camps.

No Muslim is a bad Muslim if he abstains from violence. It says so itself in the Koran.

You want me to admit that those quotes are out of context? I'll admit it...just like yours are. They are just one sentence....just like yours are. I also am questioning parts of your translations because the link I gave you doesn't say any of the things you said.

You're never gonna believe what I believe. You already have your mind made up about everything. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise so I'm just done with this arguement.

I can admit that both books Bible and Koran say things that can be interpreted differently, just like your interpretation of Isaiah doesn't say anything about the sword or whatever.

I'm not gonna write off anybody who says they are Christian Jew or Muslim. I know that none of these religions are preaching violence.

[td4mvp21]

I didn't say they were equivalent...but I did say that it's pretty much like that. It would take only a nudge to make them as radical as some of these terrorists camps.

No Muslim is a bad Muslim if he abstains from violence. It says so itself in the Koran.

You want me to admit that those quotes are out of context? I'll admit it...just like yours are. They are just one sentence....just like yours are. I also am questioning parts of your translations because the link I gave you doesn't say any of the things you said.


I can admit that both books Bible and Koran say things that can be interpreted differently, just like your interpretation of Isaiah doesn't say anything about the sword or whatever.

I'm not gonna write off anybody who says they are Christian Jew or Muslim. I know that none of these religions are preaching violence.

I forgot, some website. I guess they were wrong, and obviously out of context. I could probably give you exact verses if I actually took the time to research and read the Koran, but I'm not going to press it any more, because you dont want to discuss it any more.


You're never gonna believe what I believe. You already have your mind made up about everything. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise so I'm just done with this arguement.

Agreed.

[Duff McCartney]

I forgot, some website. I guess they were wrong, and obviously out of context. I could probably give you exact verses if I actually took the time to research and read the Koran, but I'm not going to press it any more, because you dont want to discuss it any more.

I wouldn't mind discussing it but it's not gonna get anywhere anyway. Like I said you have already made up your mind about everything. So it doesn't matter....it was a good discussion.

[td4mvp21]

I wouldn't mind discussing it but it's not gonna get anywhere anyway. Like I said you have already made up your mind about everything. So it doesn't matter....it was a good discussion.

Yeah, I know. It's pointless if neither of us want to change our minds :lol. I love to debate religion/faith.

[Extra Stout]

Got any New Testament references?
You mean you cannot fully interpret a verse out of context? It takes knowledge of other parts of the text, as well as an understanding of the theology behind it?

Unless of course a conservative Christian in the West is trying to interpret the Koran to say that Islam demands violence. Then none of that applies, and it is fine to take verses out of context. You can even make up verses.

[Extra Stout]

None of those verses imply or state to preach by the sword. Show me some verses that do the latter. And I know for a fact that you need to read the whole passage before just quoting those verses.


2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'


15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,


13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.


21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

[Extra Stout]

And then there's the passage where the LORD rejects Saul as king because he showed mercy:


7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves [b] and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

But faithful Samuel obeyed:


32 Then Samuel said, "Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites."
Agag came to him confidently, [c] thinking, "Surely the bitterness of death is past."

33 But Samuel said,
"As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women."
And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.

[Yonivore]

You mean you cannot fully interpret a verse out of context? It takes knowledge of other parts of the text, as well as an understanding of the theology behind it?
No, I mean the New Testament represented a new covenant with God's people -- no longer just Jews but all who believed in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

This new covenant is founded on the "Greatest Commandment" and the "Great Commission" found first in the Gospel of Matthew.

The "Great Commandment" reads:


"The most important one is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

The "Great Commission" reads:


"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


Unless of course a conservative Christian in the West is trying to interpret the Koran to say that Islam demands violence. Then none of that applies, and it is fine to take verses out of context. You can even make up verses.
There are no such distinction between an Old and New Covenant in the Koran and Muslims aren't called to peacefully "convert" infidels. They are called to convert them, kill them, or subject them to dhimmitude.

[Duff McCartney]

There are no such distinction between an Old and New Covenant in the Koran and Muslims aren't called to peacefully "convert" infidels. They are called to convert them, kill them, or subject them to dhimmitude.

No they aren't. Nevertheless...there is no such thing as the word infidel in the Koran. It means unbeliever or pagan...as in the polytheists that were around at the time.

Likewise...the word jihad...does not mean holy war.

[Yonivore]

No they aren't. Nevertheless...there is no such thing as the word infidel in the Koran. It means unbeliever or pagan...as in the polytheists that were around at the time.

Likewise...the word jihad...does not mean holy war.
Now you want to argue semantics? If you like the word "unbeliever" better, fine. Their Koran calls on them to convert unbelievers, kill unbelievers, or subject them to dhimmitude.

Better?

[Duff McCartney]

The primary aim of jihad is not the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam by force, but rather Establishing justice on earth, spreading and defense of the Islamic state. In the classical manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, the rules associated with armed warfare are covered at great length. Such rules include not killing women, children and non-combatants, as well as not damaging cultivated or residential areas.

If it makes you feel better Yoni then fine. Just know that not all of us throw away religions that we don't know anything about.

[Extra Stout]

No, I mean the New Testament represented a new covenant with God's people -- no longer just Jews but all who believed in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
So, you can't interpret a verse in the Old Testament correctly without reading it in light of the New Testament, and being familar with the theology of the Old and New Covenants.

Thanks for agreeing with me.


There are no such distinction between an Old and New Covenant in the Koran and Muslims aren't called to peacefully "convert" infidels. They are called to convert them, kill them, or subject them to dhimmitude.
You've claimed that for years despite knowing next to nothing about the total Koranic text, nor how it is interpreted in Islamic theology. This is part of a movement on the right to convince people that Islam is inherently a defective, violent religion, which must ostensibly be wiped from the Earth in order for Christians to be safe.

[Yonivore]

So, you can't interpret a verse in the Old Testament correctly without reading it in light of the New Testament, and being familar with the theology of the Old and New Covenants.
Sure you can. The Great Commandment and the Great Commission can both stand on their own and, in fact, I would argue that all other passages of the Bible -- Old and New Testament -- should be read in the context of how they relate to the Gospels.


Thanks for agreeing with me.
That you think there is agreement doesn't speak well of your ability to read and understand the words of another.


You've claimed that for years despite knowing next to nothing about the total Koranic text, nor how it is interpreted in Islamic theology. This is part of a movement on the right to convince people that Islam is inherently a defective, violent religion, which must ostensibly be wiped from the Earth in order for Christians to be safe.
Are there peaceful Muslims? Absolutely.

But, in order for Muslims to peacefully adhere to their religion they have to pervert the Koran and ignore those passages that call for violence.

Are there violent Christians? Absolutely.

But, in order for Christians to be violent they have to pervert their Holy Bible and completely ignore the two fundamental principles I just posted.

It really is that simple.

Please, disabuse me of this notion.

[Spurminator]

Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" (4: 89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90).

In the Koran, therefore, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2: 191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3).


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175987,00.html

[Yonivore]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175987,00.html
So, how do Muslims define "war" and "self-defense" and "hostilities" and "peace?"

[Spurminator]

:lol

Now YOU'RE arguing semantics.

[Yonivore]

:lol

Now YOU'RE arguing semantics.
And, in this context, I think it's important. Whereas there doesn't appear to be any discernible difference between the words "unbeliever" and "infidel," there does appear to be different interpretations of the words "war" and "peace" and "hostilities" and "self-defense."

After all, how do you explain Islamo-fascists excusing the deliberate killing of innocent civilians?

And, I asked because of what was posted; "Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace."

I think it's important to know what they will consider cessation of hostilities and suing for peace. Don't you?

[Spurminator]

Your words:


But, in order for Muslims to peacefully adhere to their religion they have to pervert the Koran and ignore those passages that call for violence.

So would interpreting "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" in the most common, logical way be considered a perversion of that passage?

[Yonivore]

So would interpreting "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" in the most common, logical way be considered a perversion of that passage?
Apparently, stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, at the host country's request, during the first Gulf War was interpreted by Islamic extremists as "making war on them" or "not letting them be" or something, I guess.

I've come to the conclusion their logic is not our logic. Iran is a theocratic regime still stoning people to death for things that aren't considered criminal in most non-Islamic parts of the world. Saudi Arabia fields morality police and allows teen girls to burn up in a fire rather than flee the building because they weren't dressed appropriately. Honor killings are practiced in most Muslim countries and in some democratic countries with large Muslim populations.

Terrorism is just one manifestation of their whacked out religion. The majority of other Muslims still adhere to and believe in 6th century religious standards and practices that the rest of civilized society has long ago shunned. They cut off body parts, summarily execute prisoners, enslave, deny basic human rights to their own people, and all in the name of their religion.

Islam is one fucked up religion. Period.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Here's a funny story that I think is along the lines of the current topic:


Christian Right Activists Disrupt Hindu Chaplain In The Senate

Today was a historic first for religion in America's civic life: For the very first time, a Hindu delivered the morning invocation in the Senate chamber — only to find the ceremony disrupted by three Christian right activists.

We have video of the astonishing scene, and we'll be sharing it with you shortly.

The three protesters, who all belong to the Christian Right anti-abortion group Operation Save America, and who apparently traveled to Washington all the way from North Carolina, interrupted by loudly asking for God's forgiveness for allowing the false prayer of a Hindu in the Senate chamber.

"Lord Jesus, forgive us father for allowing a prayer of the wicked, which is an abomination in your sight," the first protester began.

"This is an abomination," he continued. "We shall have no other gods before You."

click on the link below for the remainder of the story as well as a video:

http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/jul/12/christian_right_activists_disrupt_hindu_chaplain_i n_the_senate

[Spurminator]

Apparently, stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, at the host country's request, during the first Gulf War was interpreted by Islamic extremists as "making war on them" or "not letting them be" or something, I guess.

I've come to the conclusion their logic is not our logic. Iran is a theocratic regime still stoning people to death for things that aren't considered criminal in most non-Islamic parts of the world. Saudi Arabia fields morality police and allows teen girls to burn up in a fire rather than flee the building because they weren't dressed appropriately. Honor killings are practiced in most Muslim countries and in some democratic countries with large Muslim populations.

Terrorism is just one manifestation of their whacked out religion. The majority of other Muslims still adhere to and believe in 6th century religious standards and practices that the rest of civilized society has long ago shunned. They cut off body parts, summarily execute prisoners, enslave, deny basic human rights to their own people, and all in the name of their religion.

Islam is one fucked up religion. Period.


I thought we were talking about the peaceful Muslims.... You're all over the place.

[boutons_]

"Christian" brown-shirt fascists, from the South, what fucking, intolerant, aggressive assholes.

[Spurminator]

Peaceful Muslims are peaceful only by disobeying the Koran, which although specifically allowing violence only for self-defense, leaves these passages open to interpretation by violent Muslims. In other words, Peaceful Muslims pervert the words of the Koran by failing to interpret peace-promoting Koran passages the same way non-peaceful Muslims interpret them.

[Yonivore]

I thought we were talking about the peaceful Muslims.... You're all over the place.
And, so are they.

Even the so-called "peaceful" Muslims engage in religious atrocities supported by their Koran.

[Spurminator]

But you still called them peaceful; and without the sarcastic quotation marks before.

[Yonivore]

But you still called them peaceful.
Like I said, they're only peaceful because they choose to ignore certain aspects of their religion.

[Spurminator]

Aspects like non-peaceful Muslims' interpretation of the Koran, yes we saw your confusing argument the first time.

[Extra Stout]

Sure you can. The Great Commandment and the Great Commission can both stand on their own and, in fact, I would argue that all other passages of the Bible -- Old and New Testament -- should be read in the context of how they relate to the Gospels.
The Great Commandment and Great Commission are not Old Testamant verses appearing to endorse violence, so whether those verses stand on their own is immaterial to the question. Rather, you go further to say that the rest of the Bible should be read in terms of the Gospels, so it does appear that you think that Old Testament verses regarding violence should be read in the context not only of the Great Commandment and Great Commission, but the remainder of the Gospels as well.

So if you don't realize that you agree with me, either you didn't understand the question in the first place, or you don't really grasp what you are saying.


But, in order for Muslims to peacefully adhere to their religion they have to pervert the Koran and ignore those passages that call for violence.
The Koran is an arcane, florid, mystical tome riddled with inconsistencies, which one would expect from an unlearned itinerant preacher-turned-warlord dictating over a period of 13 years in a variety of circumstances. Many of the controversial passages make perfect sense in their historical context, but become contradictory when ones tries to conflate them into a unified and universal, infallible and eternal code for life and faith, detached from any sense of time and place. It requires a great deal of interpretation to approach anything like a systematic theology from the Koran under that hermeneutic.

So there is no "correct" reading of the Koran to pervert. Islam is whatever the Muslims of the current day practice, by whatever interpretation they happen to follow.

[Duff McCartney]

The only thing Yonivore does is say that Islam is a fucked up religion by citing "Islamic extremists" as an example. By that ration, those Christian extremists make it a fucked up religion as well.

[Duff McCartney]

The majority of other Muslims still adhere to and believe in 6th century religious standards and practices that the rest of civilized society has long ago shunned. They cut off body parts, summarily execute prisoners, enslave, deny basic human rights to their own people, and all in the name of their religion.

What are you basing this information off of? Conducting polls of Islamic countries in your free time? Or are you just making it up?

Your generalizations such as the majority of Muslims are way off base. It's obvious that you know nothing of the Koran. Have you read anything about it? At all?

[Duff McCartney]

Like I said, they're only peaceful because they choose to ignore certain aspects of their religion.

Like what?

[Yonivore]

Like what?
Specifically, the parts that tell them to convert, kill, or to subject to dhimmitude those who do not believe.

[Spurminator]

And the violent ones are only violent because they choose to ignore the peaceful parts.

[Extra Stout]

In (shudder) defense of Yonivore, the most prevalent interpretation of the Koran in Saudi Arabian study on matters of jihad would be that the peaceful-sounding passages reflect a period of forebearance Allah allowed toward infidels while Muhammad was preaching among them, that the period expired, and that subsequently Allah's command upon infidels is either to convert, live under Muslim domination, or die by the sword.

The Egyptian seminaries I don't think agree with this view, and Asian Islam is a whole other animal.

[possessed]

"Christian" brown-shirt fascists, from the South, what fucking, intolerant, aggressive assholes.
Sounds like you can teach these people a lesson or two on tolerance. :rolleyes

[Spurminator]

"Ignore" was too strong a term, but I was turning Yonivore's post around. Either way, as you said, there are too many complexities in the Koran for there to be one authoritative interpretation.

I wouldn't say you're defending him. :lol

[Yonivore]

Sounds like you can teach these people a lesson or two on tolerance. :rolleyes
:lmao

[Yonivore]

"Ignore" was too strong a term, but I was turning Yonivore's post around. Either way, as you said, there are too many complexities in the Koran for there to be one authoritative interpretation.

I wouldn't say you're defending him. :lol


"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America , and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
Who's ignoring whom?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"Christian" brown-shirt fascists, from the South, what fucking, intolerant, aggressive assholes.

Does anyone else see the irony in boutons calling anyone or anything intolerant, aggressive assholes?

Just curious.

[Extra Stout]

Omar Ahmad is a Hamas mole. CAIR was created as a Hamas front back in the 1990's. They are good at hiding it.

[Spurminator]

Who's ignoring whom?

Which chapter of the Koran did Omar write?

[possessed]

Does anyone else see the irony in boutons calling anyone or anything intolerant, aggressive assholes?

Just curious.
Seriously, this cat has his tin foil panties in a bunch of epic proportions.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://www.fabrica.it/blog/uploads/silvia/wuyulu.jpg

The boutons bot giving Dan a ride to evening prayer.

[Duff McCartney]

Specifically, the parts that tell them to convert, kill, or to subject to dhimmitude those who do not believe.

There are parts like that.... but "those who do not believe" refers to the polytheists that ridiculed and oppressed Muhammad and Muslims. It doesn't say to convert either, but it speaks of killing only when they are attacked...not for conversion.

For it is written in the Koran....

"Oh you who reject faith! I do not worship what you worship, and you will not worship what I worship. And I will never worship that which you worship, nor will you ever worship that which I worship. You have your faith, and I have mine." Sura 109:1-6

[Extra Stout]

There are parts like that.... but "those who do not believe" refers to the polytheists that ridiculed and oppressed Muhammad and Muslims. It doesn't say to convert either, but it speaks of killing only when they are attacked...not for conversion.

For it is written in the Koran....

"Oh you who reject faith! I do not worship what you worship, and you will not worship what I worship. And I will never worship that which you worship, nor will you ever worship that which I worship. You have your faith, and I have mine." Sura 109:1-6
To most Arab clerics, "polytheists" is also interpreted to mean Christians, who "attribute partners to God" (Jesus, Holy Spirit).

[boutons_]

"The boutons bot giving Dan a ride to evening prayer."

Aggie really is obsessed with me, amazing. self-ownage.

[Phenomanul]

I've been gone 10 days and this place hasn't changed....



And then there's the passage where the LORD rejects Saul as king because he showed mercy:



But faithful Samuel obeyed:

I would point out that Saul's sin wasn't his 'display of mercy'... you actually referenced his true fault when pointing out Samuel's subsequent actions.... Saul's sin was direct disobedience to GOD's command. This would later become the pattern that led to GOD's disappointment in Saul and the reason why Saul eventually lost his throne.


On a side note:

People need to understand that the context of the period covered by the Old Covenant, and the methods that GOD chose to interact with His people at that time do not extend into the present day.... GOD's interaction with His children under The New Covenant is markedly different. That contextual difference completely nullifies any attempt to claim that Christianity invokes the use of violence as a means to anything.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"The boutons bot giving Dan a ride to evening prayer."

Aggie really is obsessed with me, amazing. self-ownage.

If one can be obsessed with laughing at someone else's stupidity, you got me.

It's kinda cute how you don't even address the discussion any more because you're getting punked so bad.

[td4mvp21]

"Christian" brown-shirt fascists, from the South, what fucking, intolerant, aggressive assholes.

Don't even start boutons, you are the most intolerant aggressive person in the political forum :lol.

[boutons_]

I don't tolerate dumbfuck "Christian" scammers and hucksters, dubya, dickhead, Repugs, neo-cunts, PNAC/AEI assholes, rap and rappers, most everybody else, I don't GAF.