Nets are interested in Jackie Butler

[Bruno]

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMjYmZmdi ZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcxNjYwMzEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZU VFeXk2



Other available big men the Nets would be interested in include San Antonio's Jackie Butler, whom they have inquired about

[Bruno]

Nets have a trade exception big enough (from the McInnis to Charlotte trade) to take Butler's Salary.

[Sam]

TRADE HIM!!!...Ship him out right now.

[samikeyp]

Butler for VC. :smokin

:)

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Butler for VC. :smokin

:)

That better be a joint you're puffing on.

Why the hell would we want VC (even if it made salary cap sense)? So he can screw up in the clutch like he has his whole career? So he can jack up bad shots? So he can be a locker room cancer? :puke

[SpurCapita]

The only person that would be even worth trading for would be Marcus Williams #2 or Nachbar, and I don't see that happening.

[ploto]

Other available big men...

See, he's widely known to be available.

[Ocotillo]

He would likely go for cash or future considerations since there is a trade exception. That might give them (Spurs FO) wiggle room to bring in a free agent and still avoid the luxury tax.

[yavozerb]

Just another reason why Butler is at summer camp!!It's all about boosting his trade value at this point. Butler will never get many minutes with the spurs so the time is coming soon to trade him and bring in mahinmi for developmental reasons.

[Ocotillo]

I wonder if the Nets really contacted the Spurs R.C. asked; "How about Francisco Elson? He's a helluva athlete?"

[SpursIndonesia]

I'll gladly trade him for a 1st # pick or atleast 2 2nd # picks for him & our 1 2nd # pick.

[AFBlue]

Trade exception and 2008 first rounder....nothing less.

Still can't believe the Spurs would entertain getting rid of a 6'10, 260lb man-child who just turned 22 and who has the potential to be the second best big man on this team.

[spurster]

This is not a bad idea. This would provide some room to bring in Scola.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We aren't going to bring in Scola this year people. Butler is part of our future.

[samikeyp]

That better be a joint you're puffing on.

Why the hell would we want VC (even if it made salary cap sense)? So he can screw up in the clutch like he has his whole career? So he can jack up bad shots? So he can be a locker room cancer? :puke

Um...its was a joke.

[Bruno]

Trading Butler for a trade exception and a second round pick could make a lot of sense for SA :

- Butler is expensive. With the Luxury tax system, he will likely cost $5M next year.
- Butler won't get playtime next year. He can't play in Austin and will spend the year on the inactive list. He can maybe be Spurs 5th bigman durign second games of b2b with Horry resting.
- Trading Butler will open a roster spot for a player like Mahinmi.
- Is Butler a that good project ? He is a good low post score but I'm not sure it's enough to make him a good project.
- Is Butler a good fit in SA ? If Spurs FO isn't sold on Scola's ability to play with Duncan, I wonder what they think about Butler playing with Duncan. Butler is a way worse fit as the bigman playing with Duncan than Scola.

[yavozerb]

Also, with Splitter possible coming to SA next year Butler once again is the odd man out!!After summer league, Butler's value will be about as high as its gonna get for a while. Expect him to be moved..Bruno do you think the spurs would ever consider bringing over Sanikidze this year for austin??

[Mr. Body]

- Is Butler a good fit in SA ? If Spurs FO isn't sold on Scola's ability to play with Duncan, I wonder what they think about Butler playing with Duncan. Butler is a way worse fit as the bigman playing with Duncan than Scola.

He doesn't look like a good fit. Spurs saw a way to pry a decent prospect from New York last summer and did so, but he doesn't match what they're looking for in a big man. Trade exception + a second rounder would be excellent.

[Bruno]

Bruno do you think the spurs would ever consider bringing over Sanikidze this year for austin??

I don't think they consider to sign him this year.
If Spurs staff were in a evaluation process with Sanikidze, they would give him a lot of playtime in summer league and he doesn't play with the summer league team.

[lotr1trekkie]

The botton line on Butler is that he will see no playing time next season or the season thereafter when Splitter hopefully arrives and Elson is extended. By that time he will have collected 6 mill as a practice player. Bring back Sean Marks at a fourth the cost.
The bad news is that Butler isn't increasing his trade value in the summer league.

[Gros Membres!]

I disagree and with the Nets looking to compete with the frontcourt of the Knicks and Orlando, I could see them bringing in Butler as they are in need of his services - low post scoring and a big body. Will he make an impact in NJ? I don't think so unless someone there gets injured again.

But I do see him as the odd man out in SA and would love the pick and trade exception.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Jackie who?

[AFBlue]

You people are crazy!

A day after this unrefined kid goes for 18pts and 12rebs consistently looking like the best player on the court, everyone is ready to trade him away for CRAP.

Any second round pick is a long-shot to be as productive in this league as Jackie Butler could be. And if it's purely a cost-saving measure, he makes a whopping $2.5M.

I understand the luxury tax concerns, but c'mon....you want to GIVE AWAY this kid (he's only 22), who seems to be the only credible low-post threat on this team outside of Duncan, and who has the potential to develop into a productive player in this league? Unbelievable....

As far as "fit" with this roster, how hard is it to believe that JB will displace Elson as the 2nd big off the bench? Butler may not fit great alongside Duncan (though I think the idea that two low post guys can't be on the floor together is overstated), but there are three others that he would fit great with...Fabs, Horry, and Bonner.

Finally, to the point about Splitter. Assuming Tiago comes over next year, why is everyone assuming that he's automatically going to take Elson's place in minutes and rotation? Is he not going to have an adjustment or learning curve as well? Why trade a player for nothing right now, without knowing whether Splitter will even be able to step in right away and fill that role.

I say the Spurs let Jackie play out the rest of the summer league and training camp. Let him earn some minutes, possibly away from Elson, and let them continue to evaluate him throughout the year. If he does great, then they can pick up the team option and keep him on this team. If he's not great, release him from his contract or trade him to another team.

One thing is for sure, if you trade him now you'll get virtually nothing in return. If you trade him a year from now, you could likely get more...but it's hard to say you get less than a bullshit second round pick.

[AFBlue]

The botton line on Butler is that he will see no playing time next season or the season thereafter when Splitter hopefully arrives and Elson is extended. By that time he will have collected 6 mill as a practice player. Bring back Sean Marks at a fourth the cost.The bad news is that Butler isn't increasing his trade value in the summer league.

If Elson is extended beyond this season I will go apeshit!

The guy is worthless....

On Sean Marks....he's not a 22yr old, 265lb low-post F/C.

Why is it that everyone is downgrading Butler to be a "practice player"?

He was a practice player in his first year with this team as a young kid with a bunch of experienced guys in front of him.

Give this kid a shot to earn legitimate minutes...he's got the freaking talent.

[peskypesky]

I think Butler still has potential to be a decent big off the bench. He's still young, he's still learning the Spurs' system, and hopefully he's benefitting from watching Tim play. He'll never be a star, and probably not even a starter, but I still think he might be able to contribute. Remember how medoicre Oberto looked his first year with the Spurs?

[cholo]

You're usually right, but you're dead wrong on this one Fat Tony.

Butler is a fat scrub who needs chingos minutes to be effective. He needs playing time to grow and he is never going develop in SA unless Duncan gets hurt, Elson dies, and Robert Horry's knees lock up permanently.

18pts 12 rbs in one game of a summer league where he has mostly shown laziness (18 seconds to get up the court), lack of desire, and self doubt are not what the Spurs need coming off the bench for 8-10 minutes a game.

[AFBlue]

You're usually right, but you're dead wrong on this one Fat Tony.

Butler is a fat scrub who needs chingos minutes to be effective. He needs playing time to grow and he is never going develop in SA unless Duncan gets hurt, Elson dies, and Robert Horry's knees lock up permanently.

18pts 12 rbs in one game of a summer league where he has mostly shown laziness (18 seconds to get up the court), lack of desire, and self doubt are not what the Spurs need coming off the bench for 8-10 minutes a game.

Elson is worthless and Horry's knees just might lock up permanently.

But let's say you're right and he doesn't get off the bench this year. I'd say he'll be just as attractive a prospect by trade deadline time (when the lux tax is enforced) as he is right now...so why trade him before he's had the opportunity to prove what he can do on the court?

If he gets traded I won't be floored, but it seems idiotic to trade him unnecessarily early AND get absolute crap in return.

[50 cent]

What about trading Butler for Antoine Wright? He has started getting some playing time and the Nets are pretty full at the swing position.

He is a long SF that Pop might be able to whip into a great defender.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

We better keep Butler.

[Darkwaters]

Why is it that everyone is downgrading Butler to be a "practice player"?

He was a practice player in his first year with this team as a young kid with a bunch of experienced guys in front of him.

Give this kid a shot to earn legitimate minutes...he's got the freaking talent.

It's amazing how people are nuts about James White but so lukewarm about Jackie Butler. Both players have a huge ceiling but are not sure things to reach it. But both could be special players in their own right.

I suppose I'm undervaluing the worth of highflying dunks?

[50 cent]

For the record, I'm not advocating trading Butler because I think he has a lot of upside potential. He is only 22.

Still, if they were to deal with the Nets, I think Wright could be a good prospect as a role player in the SF position.

[Mr. Body]

It's amazing how people are nuts about James White but so lukewarm about Jackie Butler. Both players have a huge ceiling but are not sure things to reach it. But both could be special players in their own right.


I disagree that their ceilings are that high. Maybe a bit higher than they are now, but to me they're WYSIWYG.

[Kori Ellis]

If the Spurs are close to the luxury tax, I can easily see them giving away Butler for a trade exception. I wouldn't like it - I'd rather they deal Elson, but I could easily see them doing it.

[Kori Ellis]

For the record, I'm not advocating trading Butler because I think he has a lot of upside potential. He is only 22.

Still, if they were to deal with the Nets, I think Wright could be a good prospect as a role player in the SF position.

Wright reportedly has a bad work ethic and is a cocky mofo - I'm not sure how his personality would fit in here.

[timvp]

What about trading Butler for Antoine Wright?Empty roster spot > Antoine Wright


See, he's widely known to be available.You expect a bench player to be untradeable :lol


Trading Butler for a trade exception and a second round pick could make a lot of sense for SA :

- Butler is expensive. With the Luxury tax system, he will likely cost $5M next year.
- Butler won't get playtime next year. He can't play in Austin and will spend the year on the inactive list. He can maybe be Spurs 5th bigman durign second games of b2b with Horry resting.
- Trading Butler will open a roster spot for a player like Mahinmi.
- Is Butler a that good project ? He is a good low post score but I'm not sure it's enough to make him a good project.
- Is Butler a good fit in SA ? If Spurs FO isn't sold on Scola's ability to play with Duncan, I wonder what they think about Butler playing with Duncan. Butler is a way worse fit as the bigman playing with Duncan than Scola.

-Butler isn't expensive. One year and $2.3M for a legit center prospect is cheap. Butler doesn't make that much more than a first round pick, which is exactly what he would have been if he was eligible for the draft.
-It's pretty early to guess what his playing time situation will be. But yeah, this team is deep at bigs. However, I don't think it'd be impossible for him to move up in the rotation.
-Mahinmi is a decent project but with him, he'd have zero chance of breaking the rotation.
-Butler is a good project. Cheap, young centers don't grow on trees. He has very good hands, good touch around the basket and is usually a good rebounder. He still has a lot of area where he can improve but then again, he wouldn't have been able to be signed if he didn't.
-How is Butler a worse fit next to Duncan than Scola? Butler has the ability to be a good rebounder and a good shotblocker. Those are the two areas that Scola doesn't contribute in that make him redundant next to Duncan.


All that said, I probably consider Butler for a first round pick just because the Spurs need roster flexibility. But even that is a move that could come back to look stupid in a few years.

Butler has his share of negative traits. He can still get in better shape. His mobility is less than what you'd like on a player playing next to Tim. He sometimes loafs and loses concentration easily. He's not a very good defender yet and has a lot of room to improve in terms of defensive fundamentals.

But he has traits that make him an intriguing prospect. He has outstanding hands. He has a soft touch around the basket. When his energy level is right, he's a good rebounder and shotblocker. He's a good passer for his size (leading the summer league team in assists). He has a surprisingly high basketball IQ for his position and age. Basically, Butler just has that natural basketball ability you see in players like Zach Randolph and Al Jefferson. He knows how to play.

Sure, there's still a good chance he never becomes anything. In five years, I'd say there is a 50/50 chance that he's still in the league. But he has the tools to not only be in the league in five years, but also be a starting center in the league. It'll just come down to how much he wants it and whether he gets his shot. The natural ability is there.

Do you give up on a 22-year-old center with natural ability just because you want to open up a roster spot? Perhaps, but it'd be a risky move.

And let's remember what happened this time last summer. Thorn trades for Mikki Moore, who was the Sonics third string center, and Moore explodes. Thorn isn't a dumb GM. If he wants Butler, he also sees the potential.

I'd be tempted by a first round pick from the Nets just because they could easily suck and the pick could be high. But for a second round pick, I'd rather keep Butler and see if he comes to camp ready to battle for a spot in the rotation.

[urunobili]

trade the useless slow crap

[AFBlue]

I disagree that their ceilings are that high. Maybe a bit higher than they are now, but to me they're WYSIWYG.

:lol

I haven't heard that acronym in forever....

But I disagree with it. How can you say that you've seen all you can from two guys that have relied on their natural ability (either sheer size in Butler's case, and elite athleticism in White's case) to get them to this point without really developing that skill required.

Yes, there is risk in the degree of projectability for both, but I don't think either has scratched the surface on what they could become.

I'm not saying they become the players they could be...but I doubt they're done growing.

[timvp]

It's amazing how people are nuts about James White but so lukewarm about Jackie Butler. Both players have a huge ceiling but are not sure things to reach it. But both could be special players in their own right.
I disagree that their ceilings are that high. Maybe a bit higher than they are now, but to me they're WYSIWYG.

Butler's ceiling is much higher than White's. White's ceiling is basically a poor man's version of Bowen defensively with a worse outside shot but better overall scoring ability. White isn't going to turn into a superstar. He's played too many years of competitive basketball and is too old to become much better than he is.

Butler, on the other hand, is raw. He came straight out of high school ... and even in high school he didn't play that much. At his age, Butler probably has played less competitive basketball than anyone in the NBA.

While that hurts his current level of play, it also means that he has a lot of potential. Sure, he could never reach the potential, but the potential is there to become more than what we see today.

[saporvida]

i wanna see more of butler and on the court during the reg season!

why trade such a young bball'r who has all the potential to be something big here in SA? give the kid a shot first before you ship his ass off.

as for james white, well he is gonna be something special in 2 yrs. remember that!

[mountainballer]

I'm all for a trade Butler for Boone. (if this probably was the Nets offer)
it would also help to avoid lux tax (saves abou 1.2 million in salary) and we would add a player, who might turn into what some hoped Elson could be.
(Dirk defender etc.).
Boone is very limited, but he is a very hard worker, good defender and good athlete. much more upside than Elson. (who hasn't any upside, considering his age).
Nets just drafted a similar player in Williams and Collins is another PF/C, who can defend but not score. so Booner might be the odd man out.
IMO a trade that might help both teams.

[Bruno]

-Butler isn't expensive. One year and $2.3M for a legit center prospect is cheap. Butler doesn't make that much more than a first round pick, which is exactly what he would have been if he was eligible for the draft.

We will see how Butler will really cost when the luxury tax threshold will be known (today or tomorrow).



-It's pretty early to guess what his playing time situation will be. But yeah, this team is deep at bigs. However, I don't think it'd be impossible for him to move up in the rotation.

Move up over who ?



-Mahinmi is a decent project but with him, he'd have zero chance of breaking the rotation.

Is it a problem to have a 6th bigman not able to break the rotation ?
Don't forget that Spurs' 6th bigman main quality in 04-05 and 05-06 was to be a nice guy.



-How is Butler a worse fit next to Duncan than Scola? Butler has the ability to be a good rebounder and a good shotblocker. Those are the two areas that Scola doesn't contribute in that make him redundant next to Duncan.


Butler has played 103 min with Spurs this year and hasn't blocked a single shot.
Butler is a worse fit than Scola to play with Duncan because he is slower and because he is even more a low post player than Scola.

[50 cent]

Forget about Scola. He will never play for the Spurs. I don't understand why some of you can't understand that.

[picnroll]

Can Butler sustain another season of working out if he's not getting floor time.

[timvp]

We will see how Butler will really cost when the luxury tax threshold will be known (today or tomorrow). Beno and Barry are both worse contracts than Butler. Butler at least has upside.


Move up over who ?It's not inconceivable that Butler works his way up to the backup center spot.


Is it a problem to have a 6th bigman not able to break the rotation ?
Don't forget that Spurs' 6th bigman main quality in 04-05 and 05-06 was to be a nice guy.So you want Mahinmi because he is a nice guy? Personally, I'll take whichever one is the better player with the higher upside.


Butler has played 103 min with Spurs this year and hasn't blocked a single shot.So he didn't block a shot in what most players play in three games so you gave up on his shotblocking ability?


Butler is a worse fit than Scola to play with Duncan because he is slower and because he is even more a low post player than Scola.Butler has been hitting his jumpers in summer league. I'd say they are both the same amount dependent at being in the low block.

But what the Spurs have harped on with Scola is they want to see him rebound better. Butler has shown the ability to rebound.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Forget about Scola. He will never play for the Spurs. I don't understand why some of you can't understand that.

scola who?

[timvp]

Can Butler sustain another season of working out if he's not getting floor time.Valid concern. You'd hope so but I'm sure he didn't sign with the Spurs to be confined to the IR for years.

[Bruno]

Beno and Barry are both worse contracts than Butler. Butler at least has upside.

And ?
It's not sure that Spurs could move Beno or barry for a trade exception/lower salary.



It's not inconceivable that Butler works his way up to the backup center spot.

Spurs need a player like Elson against team with a quick bigman (like Mavs..). Giving Elson spot to Butler makes no sense. Elson is far from being a good player but Spurs need him.



So you want Mahinmi because he is a nice guy? Personally, I'll take whichever one is the better player with the higher upside.

Personally I take the player that can help Spurs the msot in the future. I don't care if the player has zero chance to breah the rotation.



So he didn't block a shot in what most players play in three games so you gave up on his shotblocking ability?

Say the man who has given up on Elson after one preseason game...
And Elson is a better shotblocker than Butler.



But what the Spurs have harped on with Scola is they want to see him rebound better. Butler has shown the ability to rebound.

And Spurs have asked Butler to lose weight to be quicker. Scola has shown the ability to be quicker than Butler.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The botton line on Butler is that he will see no playing time next season or the season thereafter when Splitter hopefully arrives and Elson is extended. By that time he will have collected 6 mill as a practice player. Bring back Sean Marks at a fourth the cost.
The bad news is that Butler isn't increasing his trade value in the summer league.

Poor trekkie...

The bottom line is this team needs a low post presence when Duncan goes out of the game, because we haven't had one since Drob retired.

[picnroll]

Bruno you hear of any team in Europe looking at Mahinmi?

[bigdog]

the Nets don't have anything that the Spurs would want. I don't see them listening to any Nets offer. we will keep butler

[Bruno]

Bruno you hear of any team in Europe looking at Mahinmi?

Nothing.

[SequSpur]

Butler is taxing the cap but its okay to pay a white redhead 12th man 9 million dollars..

uh okay.... :dizzy

[timvp]

And ?
It's not sure that Spurs could move Beno or barry for a trade exception/lower salary.The difference between Beno and Butler's salary is $600K. I'd rather do something like Beno and the Raptors second round pick next year for a second round pick in 2011.


Spurs need a player like Elson against team with a quick bigman (like Mavs..). Giving Elson spot to Butler makes no sense. Elson is far from being a good player but Spurs need him.Elson didn't do anything against the Nuggets or Suns in the playoffs and they have "quick bigmen". If you want to give Elson charity minutes in the hope that he's some kind of Dirk stopper, just say it :)

And really, a Dirk stopper needs to be the body style of Stephen Jackson or James Posey. I've never seen a player as tall as Dirk guard him halfway effective. Being shorter, quicker with the ability to rebound is the way to go. Bowen wasn't a good matchup because of the rebounding aspect.


Personally I take the player that can help Spurs the msot in the future. I don't care if the player has zero chance to breah the rotation.So are you saying Mahinmi > Butler?


Say the man who has given up on Elson after one preseason game...My only mistake was being fooled by the first game of the regular season last year. You thought he was the second coming.

:smokin


And Elson is a better shotblocker than Butler.
As a Knick, Butler averaged 1.7 blocks per 40 minutes. Elson has a career average of 1.6 block per 40 minutes.


And Spurs have asked Butler to lose weight to be quicker. Scola has shown the ability to be quicker than Butler.What's more likely, Butler continues to lose weight or a 27-year-old Scola learns to rebound?

[timvp]

Bruno you hear of any team in Europe looking at Mahinmi?

Nothing.Either that's a bad sign for Mahinmi's potential or Mahinmi's agents know something the rest of us don't about a spot on the Spurs being available.

[Bruno]

Elson didn't do anything against the Nuggets or Suns in the playoffs and they have "quick bigmen". If you want to give Elson charity minutes in the hope that he's some kind of Dirk stopper, just say it :)

And really, a Dirk stopper needs to be the body style of Stephen Jackson or James Posey. I've never seen a player as tall as Dirk guard him halfway effective. Being shorter, quicker with the ability to rebound is the way to go. Bowen wasn't a good matchup because of the rebounding aspect.

And Spurs don't have a player like Stephen Jackson or James Posey.
If Spurs do a trade to get a SF/PF (Nocioni :depressed ), Elson will be less usefull. For the moment, Spurs haven't done something like that so Elson is still needed.



So are you saying Mahinmi > Butler?

Apples and oranges, they are so different.
What you and I think are worthless. What count is what Spurs FO thinks.
Reports say that Butler is available and that Spurs wanted to sign Mahinmi this summer : I'm not sure that Butler>Mahinmi is as obvious for them than for you.



As a Knick, Butler averaged 1.7 blocks per 40 minutes. Elson has a career average of 1.6 block per 40 minutes.

:lol
Funny how you take Elson career stats and not Butler career stats...
Bottomline is that Butler isn't a good shootblocker.



What's more likely, Butler continues to lose weight or a 27-year-old Scola learns to rebound?

The "slim" Butler moves better this summer than before but he is still quite slow.

[timvp]

And Spurs don't have a player like Stephen Jackson or James Posey.
If Spurs do a trade to get a SF/PF (Nocioni :depressed ), Elson will be less usefull. For the moment, Spurs haven't done something like that so Elson is still needed.Oberto is pretty quick for a bigman. I don't think he's that much less mobile than Elson. Elson is much faster but not much quicker.


Apples and oranges, they are so different.
What you and I think are worthless. What count is what Spurs FO thinks.
Reports say that Butler is available and that Spurs wanted to sign Mahinmi this summer : I'm not sure that Butler>Mahinmi is as obvious for them than for you.I haven't seen Mahinmi enough to know which one is better. That's another reason why it sucks that Mahinmi got hurt. We could have seen them side by side and pretty easily tell which one was the keeper.


:lol
Funny how you take Elson career stats and not Butler career stats...
Bottomline is that Butler isn't a good shootblocker.
Okay, career stats time:

Elson 1.6 blocks per 40 minutes
Butler 1.5 blocks per 40 minutes

Care to edit your posts?


The "slim" Butler moves better this summer than before but he is still quite slow.Work in progress.

[50 cent]

You guys that want to throw Elson in the garbage need to remember that we didn't have to match up with Dirk this last year like we probably will this coming year.

Elson is the only guy we have that can cause Dirk some problems.

He's pretty much useless besides guarding Dirk, but just being able to do that one thing could mean the difference in winning a Championship or not.

[Bruno]

Oberto is pretty quick for a bigman. I don't think he's that much less mobile than Elson. Elson is much faster but not much quicker.

Oberto has done a good job on Dirk But Spurs need to have a second bigman to put on Dirk. Oberto can't defend 40mpg on Dirk.



Okay, career stats time:

Elson 1.6 blocks per 40 minutes
Butler 1.5 blocks per 40 minutes

Care to edit your posts?

1.6>1.5 :p:



Work in progress.

I don't think Butler will lose more weight : he follows a diet for almost one year.

[Kori Ellis]

You guys that want to throw Elson in the garbage need to remember that we didn't have to match up with Dirk this last year like we probably will this coming year.

Elson is the only guy we have that can cause Dirk some problems.

He's pretty much useless besides guarding Dirk, but just being able to do that one thing could mean the difference in winning a Championship or not.

What gives you the impression he can guard Dirk? Because he's tall? He pretty much hasn't shown he can guard anyone in the league. Most of the time he's just standing in the wrong place on D or missing a rotation.

[timvp]

Miami and Golden State have both shown how to guard Dirk. You don't put a big man on him. How often didn't you see Zo or Biedrins on Dirk? :lol

You have to put players like Posey, Haslem, SJax, Barnes or Pietrus on him. Basically just smaller players who are as quick and have the muscle to keep him out of the paint and off the boards. Dirk is death if you put a tall player or a player who can't keep him from getting offensive rebounds on him.

Somehow turning Barry into Posey would be ideal right about now.

[spvrs]

Bring back Malik!!!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Amir Johnson, anyone? I know that Marcus Williams is a rookie and he still has to get accustomed to the NBA, but he's flat out sucking right now. Undrafted free agents are doing better than him right now.

[timvp]

Bring back Malik!!!

Ah yes, the original Dirk stopper :smokin

[spursreport]

What a fucking stupid ass trade. 2nd round pick and trade exception? Fuck that! The Spurs are fucking idiots doing a trade like that. Might as well deal Scola for Duhon while they are at it. Keep him as the backup center and deal or cut Elson. Big fucking deal having to pay the tax this year.

[objective]

Being almost at Elson's level as a shotblocker is pretty bad, because Elson himself is a poor shot-blocker for someone with his attributes. At least Oberto's excuse is that he can't jump, Elson doesn't have one. I guess Butler's might be that he's too overweight to jump.

Butler's two games of the most minutes in garbage throwaways at the end of the season, he played 28 minutes in each game and had zero blocks total.

Butler's last 25 games as a Knick, when he was getting his best most consistant minutes, he averaged 16 minutes a game at .44 blocks per.

[spvrs]

Malik was a great piece and a great guy -- I miss him. It's too bad that they overpaid him and he imploded.

Honestly he's wide enough to bang dirk and a great rebounder.

[Bruno]

And I don't see Elson as a Dirk stopper, he is just (with Oberto) the less worst answer Spurs have against Dirk. If Spurs get a SF/PF this summer, I would have nothing against dumping Elson somewhere and try another player as backup C (Butler or someone else).

[barbacoataco]

Since the Spurs have Duncan, Oberto, Elson, Bonner, Horry back for next year---- How can Butler get any playing time? One of the 6 bigs has to be on the IR, so unless you put Horry there it will be Butler. Even if Horry goes on IR for back-to-backs, that will not be much playing time for Butler, since Bonner will get more minutes with Horry being out of the game.

Then you throw Splitter into the mix in 2009 and I don't see where Butler fits in.

[lotr1trekkie]

Go Cholo! Direct hit! Butler is not a "practice player" If all you do for 8 months is practice---What are you? This kid is not the second coming of Moses Malone! Watch him-- he can't elevate. He will do that again next season. Elson vs Butler---give me a break. If Fancisco is an antelope on the court then Butler is a Rhino. Let's move on!

[timvp]

I guess Butler's might be that he's too overweight to jump.If Butler +30-40 pounds could block as much as Elson, is it unreasonable to think he could become a good shot blocker?


Butler's two games of the most minutes in garbage throwaways at the end of the season, he played 28 minutes in each game and had zero blocks total. That's two games after 80 games of sitting at the end of the bench. Zo had zero blocks in two out of his four playoff games. Is he not a shotblocker either?


Butler's last 25 games as a Knick, when he was getting his best most consistant minutes, he averaged 16 minutes a game at .44 blocks per.Damn, nice find ... you just proved Butler is a nice shot blocker. To start the 2005-06 season, Butler averaged 2.4 blocks per 40 minutes in games played in November, December, January and February. That was back when Larry Brown was actually trying to win before the wheels fell off.

So a fat yet motivated Jackie Butler blocks shots at a better rate than Rasho Nesterovic? That's good news because a skinnier Butler in a defense that highlights shot blocking could really be a nice shot blocker.

[50 cent]

What gives you the impression he can guard Dirk? Because he's tall? He pretty much hasn't shown he can guard anyone in the league. Most of the time he's just standing in the wrong place on D or missing a rotation.
He's fast and long. To guard Dirk, you can't playing Spurs prototypical defense where the big is relied upon to make quick defensive rotations and protect the basket. You have to have a long player that can stick with Dirk and match his heighth to cause him problems.

Elson can do that and did it fairly well when he was playing against Dirk in the regular season.

Also, don't forget that Oberto looked like absolute dog shit in his first season with the Spurs and then things clicked this year. Elson showed some flashes during the year, but looked lost most of the time on the defensive end because he was learning the system. I'm not ready to give up on Elson although I know there are a bunch of haters on here.

I just remember Oberto being more useless than Dwayne Schintzus last year.

[Kori Ellis]

He's fast and long. To guard Dirk, you can't playing Spurs prototypical defense where the big is relied upon to make quick defensive rotations and protect the basket. You have to have a long player that can stick with Dirk and match his heighth to cause him problems.

Elson can do that and did it fairly well when he was playing against Dirk in the regular season.

Actually the most effective players in the league that have guarded Dirk have been shorter, strong players that can rebound (i.e. Haslem).

And Elson guarded Dirk for about 10 minutes total, if that, during the regular season.

[spurster]

It's amazing how people are nuts about James White but so lukewarm about Jackie Butler. Both players have a huge ceiling but are not sure things to reach it. But both could be special players in their own right.


Both White and Butler are projects. If either was so special, they would have gotten more than the 137 and 103 minutes that they respectively played during the whole regular season.

[50 cent]

Actually the most effective players in the league that have guarded Dirk have been shorter, strong players that can rebound (i.e. Haslem).

And Elson guarded Dirk for about 10 minutes total, if that, during the regular season.
Well, we don't have that right now and I don't see anybody reasonable that we have a chance of getting that fits that mold. As somebody else said above, a long fast player is the next best option although it might not be ideal.

I'm still pissed we didn't keep/try to get SJAX back.

[objective]

If Butler +30-40 pounds could block as much as Elson, is it unreasonable to think he could become a good shot blocker?

Being better than Elson I don't think qualifies as good. Fair, maybe. Adequate, I suppose.


That's two games after 80 games of sitting at the end of the bench. Zo had zero blocks in two out of his four playoff games. Is he not a shotblocker either?

Nice way to twist. It's funny that those last two games are great when used to boost Butler, to talk about how well he played and this and that, but they are terrible to look at when it reflects poorly upon him. BTW, Scola had 4 blocks in two games against Team USA in the WC and Olympic level . . . but he's a bad shotblocker and Butler's good?


So a fat yet motivated Jackie Butler blocks shots at a better rate than Rasho Nesterovic? That's good news because a skinnier Butler in a defense that highlights shot blocking could really be a nice shot blocker.

Wait . . . Butler's fat? I swear I heard all last season up until training camp from the experts that he wasn't fat at all, he was just big bodied.

[timvp]

Being better than Elson I don't think qualifies as good. Fair, maybe. Adequate, I suppose.Spurs fans consider Elson to be a shot blocker. And who is to say that Butler can't become a much better shot blocker than Elson?


Nice way to twist. It's funny that those last two games are great when used to boost Butler, to talk about how well he played and this and that, but they are terrible to look at when it reflects poorly upon him. BTW, Scola had 4 blocks in two games against Team USA in the WC and Olympic level . . . but he's a bad shotblocker and Butler's good?Two games is not enough of a sample size to determine whether someone is a shot blocker. If you want to think that Scola is a better shot blocker than Butler, I guess that is your right.


Wait . . . Butler's fat? I swear I heard all last season up until training camp from the experts that he wasn't fat at all, he was just big bodied.Last year wasn't 2005-06. I haven't seen anyone say Butler wasn't fat while on the Knicks. Read what I was referencing that you quoted.

[AFBlue]

Why are people looking at the stats for Jackie Butler when he has had no real opportunity to display the full array of his talents?

Did anyone think he was a capable passer with decent floor vision before this summer league? Well, he is...

Did anyone think he had the capability to hit a 15ft shot? Well, he can....

I'm not saying that Jackie Butler is going to be the GOAT, but give the Spurs FO enough opportunity to evaluate him before trading him off for CRAP to another team....

[YODA]

If Butler showed anything at all in practice last year, the Spurs would have given him a chance to play. Werent the SPurs unhappy with Oberto's play and gave the starting job to Elson? Elsons play wasnt much better either. Woudnt this have been a good time to give Butler some minutes if he had been good in practice? Aparently he showed them little to nothing, because the spurs FO never even attempted to give him PT during this periood. This tells me that Butler was never an option for the FO and probably will never be. With Horry, Elson, Oberto, Bonner, Id doubt you will ever see Butler this year at all if he stays.
Impressed with his summer league stats? he is foul prone and in any normal game would have to be taken out fast. I dont have the stats in front, but isnt he averageing 6 fouls a game? or is it more? How many missed dunks too? How many missed roatations? You think this guy is gonna break the roatation? give me a break!!
SO he has a break out game with points and rebounds, wow!! I wonder how many other centers have had big games in summer leagues in the past..ex: Greg Anderson. It was just one game and im still not impressed. If you ever want even a chance at Scola or some free agents, were gonna need room. Someone has to go. Butler? Beno?
Why keep this guy on the practice squad all year with the Brazilian coming next year or even scola? Obviously the FO dont want him and or we woudnt have gotton splintter or whatever his name is.
In other news, Wiliams looks horrible, man, whats up with this kid? White looks decent, but still a little raw. My God Watson is one hell of a ball hogger. Not impressed with anything but whites dunks. Hers hoping to see some action soon in getting rid of some players and bringing some in.

Yoda
Do or do not....there is no try


For me, elsons D rotations were horrible for a long time, but got better as came along;however, hisD in the playoffs were horrible.

[AFBlue]

Elson is utter crap....anyone who thinks otherwise is insane.

The fact that he can run the fastbreak is negated by the fact that he can't finish.

The fact that he's tall and long is negated by the fact that he's so unbelievably skinny.

The fact that he has the ability to be a solid help-side defender is negated by the fact that he's not smart enough to make the defensive rotation.

Why people are still sold on Elson is beyond me....especially when you have the opportunity to give a young guy with considerable upside and an NBA-ready offensive game to this point is beyond me.

[Spurs Brazil]

Miami and Golden State have both shown how to guard Dirk. You don't put a big man on him. How often didn't you see Zo or Biedrins on Dirk? :lol

You have to put players like Posey, Haslem, SJax, Barnes or Pietrus on him. Basically just smaller players who are as quick and have the muscle to keep him out of the paint and off the boards. Dirk is death if you put a tall player or a player who can't keep him from getting offensive rebounds on him.

Somehow turning Barry into Posey would be ideal right about now.


You forget Devin :)

[AFBlue]

Butler was busy losing 25lbs and adjusting his game to fit the system...not to mention getting used to playing at 25lbs lighter. THAT is why he didn't get an opportunity last year.

Fabricio Oberto didn't get an opportunity in his first year b/c he didn't "show anything", but based on what you've seen this year wouldn't you say he's arguably a better option/compliment alongside Tim Duncan than the guys he couldn't get in front of?

Butler will have to continue his solid play in the Summer League, show his eagerness to learn and improve in this system during training camp, and keep working on his body.

If he does those things, he offers more than Elson offensively, defensively, and on the boards.

[objective]

If Spurs fans consider Elson a good shotblocker then they're mistaken. He was historically worse than both Nesterovich and Mohammed (didn't check Mohammad's miniscule stats for this season). In spite of what might lead people to believe he could be a good shotblocker, such as his length, quickness and ability to jump, he's never put it together. He's marginal at best.

So I wouldn't be surprised if Butler eventually was better, but to me the degree of improvement to go from better than Elson to much better than Elson (and to being a good shotblocker) is a different level of advancement (not trying to sound like Marbury or anything)

--------

I'm not saying Scola is a good shotblocker, and or that he's better than Butler, I'm just saying he does get blocks on occasion. His euroleague blocks per 40 in 06 was only 1.1. His 07 numbers much worse, barely 0.6/40. And of course two games is too small a sample size, I was using it compared to your Mourning stat.

To me, the 25 games Butler ended his season with when he was getting "Play the young guys" minutes and played 25 of the last 26 games, is more telling than his early season "Play him some games, play him more in blowouts in other games" minutes that he got when he received sporadic minutes and gameplay.

------

edit:

A little bit of trivia: Horrible shot blocker Luis Scola in the euroleague had a better 'blocks per 40 minutes' than Tiago Splitter (both in 07 and 06), and was about equal with Ian Mahinmi.

[mountainballer]

I'm just wondering:
we know that the Spurs haven't been very happy with Butler.
he showed up out of shape last year (one of the absolute no-nos when playing for Pop I would assume), they didn't like his progress, we heard stories of some of the veterans kicking his ass (Finley) or at least impatient rebuke him (Tim), he almost didn't play, instead of a not exactly outstanding season of Elson, he never seemed to be happy to be with this team and prfered to watch the dancers instead of listen to Pop. he was rumored to have been on the block last dead line.
his salary isn't huge, but it is what will likely lift the Spurs over the lux tax threshold.
and some argue about his upside, or his role on this roster. Butler is another Beno story, hopefully with the difference, that it doesn't take 3 seasons to learn that some players just arn't Spurs material, even if they are more talented than other players on the roster.
Butler will never play a significant role with this team. he might flourish somewhere else, but not in SA.
it's absolutly senseless to argue if he or Elson is more important for the team, because it's not a question of talent.

[AFBlue]

I'm just wondering:
we know that the Spurs haven't been very happy with Butler.
he showed up out of shape last year (one of the absolute no-nos when playing for Pop I would assume), they didn't like his progress, we heard stories of some of the veterans kicking his ass (Finley) or at least impatient rebuke him (Tim), he almost didn't play, instead of a not exactly outstanding season of Elson, he never seemed to be happy to be with this team and prfered to watch the dancers instead of listen to Pop. he was rumored to have been on the block last dead line.
his salary isn't huge, but it is what will likely lift the Spurs over the lux tax threshold.
and some argue about his upside, or his role on this roster. Butler is another Beno story, hopefully with the difference, that it doesn't take 3 seasons to learn that some players just arn't Spurs material, even if they are more talented than other players on the roster.
Butler will never play a significant role with this team. he might flourish somewhere else, but not in SA.
it's absolutly senseless to argue if he or Elson is more important for the team, because it's not a question of talent.

If Beno Udrih was able to actually hit shots and not turn the ball over every other posession, he'd be the #2 PG on this team.

Even if all of the Spurs' fears are realized and Butler really doesn't care all that much and doesn't pay attention, and won't stay in shape....if he gets the opportunity and produces on the court, he'll be in the rotation.

This notion that the Spurs don't play their talented players if they're not "good guys" is nonsense.

Having said that, I don't think Butler is the lazy fatass that you paint him to be. Jackie has worked hard to shed alot of weight and get in playing shape. He might not be incredibly motivated or happy to sit on the bench and ride the pine while the likes of Francisco Elson are playing 20MPG.

He DOES need to learn that he was given an extraordinary opportunity to play quick minutes for Larry Brown (who was just using him to prove a point to his other veteran centers) and then to join a championship-calibur team. But, he's FREAKING 22 YEARS OLD....cut the kid a break.

[objective]

one positive is that the Spurs have a good situation to where they could move Butler ahead of Elson in the rotation and have it not really affect the play of Elson, who was used to being an emergency guy in Denver where his minutes would be in flux. I'm not saying he'd be happy about it, but he'd be a pro about it.

[urunobili]

wanna stop Dirk? bring Scola and get rid of Butler and Beno...

[da_suns_fan_]

wanna stop Dirk? bring Scola and get rid of Butler and Beno...

That was stupid. You wanna stop dirk, get Matrix on your team. He got snubbed on the all defense team!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

how come da suns fan's post looks like that on the left side?

[Kori Ellis]

how come da suns fan's post looks like that on the left side?

Because his account has been deleted.

[SenorSpur]

Elson's defensive rotations and lapses have been chronic. His overall play has been inconsistent. However, no other big runs the floor like he does. Provided he gets a good pass, he CAN finish. He's also got a nice 12-15 ft jumper in his arsenal. Sure he didn't hold his own during the playoffs, but he CAN contribute more. He should rebound the ball better and he needs to hold his position and be more of a consistent force.

Based upon his past contributions in Nugget land, I'd say he was about as inconsistent as he's been throughout his career. If he gets beat out by Butler, as many of you think, then he should be traded immediately. Still, I want to see what or if he improves next season before throwing him out.

As for Butler, he is intriguing. This summer and impending training camp may be his only opportunity to prove he belongs on this team. However if the right deal comes along, I'm sure the Spurs would ship him out.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Because his account has been deleted.
:nutkick: :elephant

[Ocotillo]

Why would there be a either/or argument regarding Butler and Mahinmi? Bruno said they were totally different players which says to me, they belong on the floor at the same time.

Sucks that Ian tore that muscle because it would have been interesting to see the two on the floor at the same time.

I would hate to lose Butler for a second rounder even if it is going to be challenging to find him minutes this season.

If a taker can be found for Barry, Beno or Elson, that is who you move.

[AFBlue]

Based upon his (Elson's) past contributions in Nugget land, I'd say he was about as inconsistent as he's been throughout his career. If he gets beat out by Butler, as many of you think, then he should be traded immediately. Still, I want to see what or if he improves next season before throwing him out.



If you go back and look at his numbers, they're virtually identical to his last year in Denver with similar minutes. I don't see how that makes him inconsistnent.

To steal the acronym from Mr. Body....

With Elson, WYSIWYG.

[wildbill2u]

Valid concern. You'd hope so but I'm sure he didn't sign with the Spurs to be confined to the IR for years.
Players need to play in game situations. As White said, he lost a lot of confidence and got stale without game experience. Practice is simply practice and doesn't come close to the real thing in the way of sustained pressure, excitement, and extended time using the system .

I think White and Butler both need a lot of time on the Toros next season, if they can't earn decent minutes from the bench. Since the Toros will be using the same system now, they will still be learning the Spurs system but would be putting it into practice in game situations.

This new 'minor league farm system' situation is made for young players with potential as a testing ground.

[Mr. Body]

Except Butler isn't eligible to play in the NBDL.

[wildbill2u]

Except Butler isn't eligible to play in the NBDL.
I don't doubt your word, but why in hell not? That league is meant for developmental work with young players.

I suppose it is some contractual thing or years in the league or something? That makes him more on the bubble this summer and in training camp IMO.

I notice that no one mentions his defense or attitude about playing defense. He's not gonna make it on the Spurs if he cant commit to playing good D and also have the tools to do it.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I don't doubt your word, but why in hell not? That league is meant for developmental work with young players.

I suppose it is some contractual thing or years in the league or something? That makes him more on the bubble this summer and in training camp IMO.

I notice that no one mentions his defense or attitude about playing defense. He's not gonna make it on the Spurs if he cant commit to playing good D and also have the tools to do it.
Only players in their 1st or 2nd year can play in the D-League.

[Mr. Body]

I don't doubt your word, but why in hell not? That league is meant for developmental work with young players.

Be nice if it were changed (to rehab players, get players more time, etc.), but a guy is eligible for only the first two years of his career to play in the NBDL.

[timvp]

Whoever wants to salary dump Butler for a second round pick should be forced to watch the Warriors summer league game. Specifically the play where Butler gets double, makes the perfect cross court pass, gets the ball swung back around to him and proceeds to drain a Kobe Bryant-esque fadeaway jumper from 18.

Yeah, let's just ship his fat ass off for nothing. Good idea :rolleyes

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Butler>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Elson

[Mr. Body]

The trade Butler comments should be dead now. I admit I thought it was a good thing to look at, but have stepped off that platform.

[Russ]

The trade Butler comments should be dead now. I admit I thought it was a good thing to look at, but have stepped off that platform.
I suspect that Butler is being featured this summer. Perhaps not for the Spurs roster.

[timvp]

I suspect that Butler is being featured this summer. Perhaps not for the Spurs roster.Perhaps. But also not for a second round pick.

[Mr. Body]

He definitely looks better than a 2nd round pick.

[Russ]

Perhaps. But also not for a second round pick.
They should get more than that.

[Darkwaters]

He definitely looks better than a 2nd round pick.

I'd say he looks better than a late first rounder as well.

Hes not worthy of a top 10 pick or anything, and probably not even a lottery pick, but a late teens pick would make me sleep better at night. Otherwise, keep him.

[picnroll]

What would Butler look like if he ever got in great shape?

[Russ]

My problem with Butler is not that he isn't a good player -- just not a particularly good fit for the Spurs alongside Duncan. The prototype center with Duncan was Robinson, lanky, athletic, could run the floor.

Shaq is a great player but I don't think he would be as good with the Spurs as elsewhere.

[Darkwaters]

What would Butler look like if he ever got in great shape?

I don't know that he really needs to drop much more weight, but some additional conditioning would be nice. Moreover, I'm unsure how many of his "conditioning" issues are truly physical and how much of it is simply laziness on his behalf.

The real area of development for Butler right now comes with developing mental toughness and consistency (mostly consistency of effort). I think his time in New York has created some bad habits as far as on court resolve. But his Bball IQ is there as well as his obvious natural gifts.

[Mr. Body]

My problem with Butler is not that he isn't a good player -- just not a particularly good fit for the Spurs alongside Duncan. The prototype center with Duncan was Robinson, lanky, athletic, could run the floor.

Shaq is a great player but I don't think he would be as good with the Spurs as elsewhere.

True. That's why Splitter was such a great pick, and why Elson was on the right track.

Still, Butler has talent and could rough teams up for stretches.

[Darkwaters]

My problem with Butler is not that he isn't a good player -- just not a particularly good fit for the Spurs alongside Duncan. The prototype center with Duncan was Robinson, lanky, athletic, could run the floor.

Shaq is a great player but I don't think he would be as good with the Spurs as elsewhere.

So make the majority of Butler's minutes come when Duncan is on the bench. Duncan probably spends 15 min a game sitting, so if Butler plays all of that time then you've already got a great foundation. Then you only need 5 more min a game alongside Duncan and you're at 20 (the realistic amount of time I think Butler could log this upcoming season). Can you live with 5MPG of a "not perfect fit" lineup in order to maintain a post presence at all times?

[timvp]

What would Butler look like if he ever got in great shape?


Udonis Haslem improved greatly when he went from this:
http://www.nba.com/media/heat/htv0304_ud_march_mem.jpg

to this:
http://www.photofile.com/Photos/Albums/NBA%20Finals%202006/Images/HE10506.jpg

And it took about two years for Haslem. Butler is one year in. :smokin

[timvp]

My problem with Butler is not that he isn't a good player -- just not a particularly good fit for the Spurs alongside Duncan. The prototype center with Duncan was Robinson, lanky, athletic, could run the floor.

Shaq is a great player but I don't think he would be as good with the Spurs as elsewhere.I agree with you in theory and I would have fully agreed with you a week ago. But after watching Butler in summer league, he has the outside shot and the passing ability to work the high post on offense.

Defensively, Duncan and Butler wouldn't be the quickest duo, but it could work against some teams. If Butler can continue to get skinnier and quicker, he could make it work on both sides of the ball.

And with Shaq still alive and kicking in the East and Oden being introduced to the West, Butler's size and strength could still come in handy.

[ploto]

Is he worth $4M?

[ducks]

year considering rasho was making much more

[Darkwaters]

Is he worth $4M?

I think it makes more sense to move Barry than it does Butler. Barry is a player that has did little for us last year, doesn't step up in the playoffs, has no foreseeable future with the club past next season nor any upside, is impeding a younger player's progress with his mere presence (White) and simply has more value than Butler.

Moving Barry makes the cost of Butler go down (no Lux tax). Problem solved.

[timvp]

Is Beno worth $3.4M? Is Rasho worth $8M?

Fixed.

[ploto]

I assume that means your answer is no. :D

[timvp]

If you salary dump Beno, and you want to blame Butler for being over the luxury threshold, Butler costs the Spurs all of $2.7M. In other words, less than Elson for a player nine years younger.

So yes, Butler is worth his contract.

[td4mvp21]

I hope we keep him. I think he can contribute some this season and get better in the future.

[ploto]

If you salary dump Beno, and you want to blame Butler for being over the luxury threshold, Butler costs the Spurs all of $2.7M. In other words, less than Elson for a player nine years younger.

If you can't salary dump Beno and you have the chance to salary dump Butler, then it saves you $4M. But you already know that.

[timvp]

If you can't salary dump Beno and you have the chance to salary dump Butler, then it saves you $4M. But you already know that.And if you salary dump Elson, it saves the team $5M.

[T Park]

shocking ploto dumps on the black guy.

How come no one accuses her of being a friggen racist?

[Hoy]

My problem with Butler is not that he isn't a good player -- just not a particularly good fit for the Spurs alongside Duncan. The prototype center with Duncan was Robinson, lanky, athletic, could run the floor.

Shaq is a great player but I don't think he would be as good with the Spurs as elsewhere.


Practically speaking, Tim isn't a forward anymore. He is the center. Butler is a backup center. They shouldn't play together. As a backup, Butler can play 18 minutes.

I wonder if Victor can play against Dirk, he looks long, energetic and maybe make dirk play some defense.

[mountainballer]

I wonder if Victor can play against Dirk, he looks long, energetic and maybe make dirk play some defense.

I argued a year ago, that Khryapa has the tools to become a very good defender for players like Dirk. still think so.
Khryapa is very limited, but for a special role with the Spurs he would be very helpful.