Young Spurs seek roster spot - Butler shows he can play somewhere, while White lacks

[Solid D]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA071207.01C.BKNspurs.butler.white.3546a2e.html

Web Posted: 07/11/2007 10:39 PM CDT

Johnny Ludden
Express-News

LAS VEGAS — Jackie Butler and James White played in 17 games between them last season. Neither made a single appearance in the playoffs, and most of their work came after practice or long before fans started filing through the arena doors.
But here in the desert, where the temperature hit nearly 115 degrees this week, the Spurs' two youngest players were finally able to shed their sport coats and jeans and pull on a uniform. And after five games in the NBA summer league, Butler and White both look capable of playing their way off the Spurs' roster — albeit for entirely different reasons.

Butler had 11 points and six rebounds during 31 minutes as the Spurs concluded their schedule here Wednesday with a 79-68 loss to Minnesota. With the exception of his foul trouble, the 22-year-old center was one of the Spurs' best players during the five games, averaging 12.2 points and 7.0 rebounds, both highs for the team.

"For the most part," said Spurs assistant coach Don Newman, "I thought Jackie had a very good week.

"I think the next thing for him is to obviously get in a situation where he can play some minutes. I think if he was ever in a situation where he could play and knew his minutes were coming, I think you would see a guy who would certainly improve."

That situation, however, doesn't figure to be with the Spurs, who are deep and experienced at the center and power forward positions with Tim Duncan, Fabricio Oberto, Robert Horry, Francisco Elson and Matt Bonner.

The Spurs also don't have the luxury of sending Butler to Austin to play in the Development League because he's already been in the NBA for more than two seasons. And while Butler has impressed some scouts with his footwork, soft hands and instincts, those same scouts question whether he will ever be successful playing in the Spurs' defensive system, which requires the team's big men to make reads and communicate scheme changes to teammates.

At least two teams have inquired about Butler's availability during the past week, and the Spurs are expected to consider any deal that would allow them to get out of paying the $2.4 million he has on his contract this season.

Butler didn't appear to hurt his stock this week. In poor physical condition for most of the first half of last season, he has shed about 30 pounds since joining the Spurs. He showed nice touch on his shot and passed well out of the occasional double team.

"He did the things we asked him to do," Newman said. "He came prepared. He ran the floor extremely well as a big, and we certainly were going to force feed him down on the block and give him an opportunity. I thought he responded."

Butler's biggest problem was foul trouble, and referees lacking NBA experience exasperated his struggles. Players are allowed up to 10 personal fouls in summer league. Butler picked up eight in two games and seven in another.

"I thought he had a very physical mentality," Newman said. "But as the game goes on, you have to learn how to adjust."

White, meanwhile, hasn't looked as if he learned much during his rookie season with the Spurs. While the 6-foot-7 guard is amazingly athletic, he's struggled to finish at the rim after absorbing contact. His defense has been lacking, at best.

White played seven minutes Wednesday after straining a tendon in his right ankle. He's expected to be ready to play Friday when the team begins a five-game schedule at the Rocky Mountain Revue in Salt Lake City.

If White doesn't improve in Utah, where coach Gregg Popovich is expected to attend games, the Spurs could decide to waive him before Aug. 1 when his contract will guarantee him $100,000.

"I didn't think he stepped up to the physicality of the summer league," Newman said. "He has to be a better defender. He has to be more hard-nosed on the floor. He can't react to every play. ...

"I think if he's going to make it on this team he has to step it up."

Notebook: The Spurs were unable to complete the signings of Bonner, Oberto and Jacque Vaughn because of logistical issues in getting their contracts signed and certified by the league office. ... Forward Rich Melzer and point guard C.J. Watson had good showings for the Spurs here. Second-round draft pick Marcus Williams shot poorly, but played capable defense.
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[Darkwaters]

Another shot at Butler by Ludden. Not surprising.

[T Park]

there gonna trade him.

unfucking real.

RC Buford continues to fuck up.

[FirebatMIV]

Wow, Jackie Butler and James White must have both pissed in Ludden's morning coffee.

What is with this guy?

[T Park]

So the Spurs are telling me, that Jackie Butler isn't better than Francisco Elson.

Excuse me, what fucking games are you motherfuckers watching!?!?!?!!?

[SenorSpur]

Looks like White's future with the Spurs is growing short.

[justanotherspursfan]

RC Buford continues to fuck up.
Yeah, until we get a front office that knows what it's doing, this franchise will never amount to anything.

[FirebatMIV]

So the Spurs are telling me, that Jackie Butler isn't better than Francisco Elson.

Excuse me, what fucking games are you motherfuckers watching!?!?!?!!?

I'm pretty sure Johnny Ludden is telling you that.

[justanotherspursfan]

So the Spurs are telling me, that Jackie Butler isn't better than Francisco Elson.

Excuse me, what fucking games are you motherfuckers watching!?!?!?!!?
Alternate interpretation: the Spurs believe that Ian has more potential than Butler, and they need to clear the third center slot if they want to bring him over this season.

Likewise, if they ditch White, maybe we'll get lucky and see Sanikidze this fall.

[michaelwcho]

[url]
Butler's biggest problem was foul trouble, and referees lacking NBA experience exasperated his struggles. Players are allowed up to 10 personal fouls in summer league. Butler picked up eight in two games and seven in another.


Exasperated? I think he means "exacerbated."

[SequSpur]

Ludden is a Spurs puppet.. and....

he's right.. they both suck.

[timvp]

Butler is playing well so now it's time to trade him? Nice logic there. By Newman's comments, you can pretty much put an end to the Jackie Butler era.

Props Butler and good luck wherever you end up :tu

Oh and the Spurs better not just dump him for a second round pick or else that trade is going to come back bite them.

[timvp]

As far as James White goes, he has pretty much sucked in summer league. The only reason I'm not ready to give up on him is because of how well he played in the real games last year. He had nice stats, a nice PER and played good defensively. Summer league isn't a place for a Bruce Bowen replacement to shine.

Ludden had a positive spin regarding Williams. Sounds like the Spurs are trying to save face. He's been far worse than White or Butler, but Ludden has been kind.

And still nothing about Sanikidze?

[ducks]

Sanikidze is a backup plan
spurs hope to get a long three via trade if not
then Sanikidze gets mentioned

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Are you being sarcastic? You really think he'll be traded??
wts

[mystargtr34]

Isnt Mahinmi basically an Elson clone? Our three 'future' big men, Splitter Mahinmi and Elson couldnt go for 20 in an empty gym. Butler has legit scoring ability for a near 7 footer plus he is still 20 pounds overweight and only 22. He DOMINATED last years number 9 pick Patrik O'Bryant. The only reason we should consider letting go of Jackie is it Scola was coming over, and we all know that isnt happening.

[timvp]

"I think the next thing for him is to obviously get in a situation where he can play some minutes. I think if he was ever in a situation where he could play and knew his minutes were coming, I think you would see a guy who would certainly improve."The final words of the Jackie Butler chapter.

BTW, Newman needs to work on his CIA skills. Not exactly covering up any intentions with that quote. And his coaching, especially his rotations, were piss poor in the five games in Vegas. Not only did his rotations hurt the flow of the game, it hurt the ability to get a good read on players.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

so we are looking foward to seeing our new young talent, and we're realizing half of them suck and half of them will be traded? ehhhhhhh

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

So the Spurs are telling me, that Jackie Butler isn't better than Francisco Elson.

Excuse me, what fucking games are you motherfuckers watching!?!?!?!!?

It tells me that Pop still has the Dallas Mavericks loss from '06 eating at him.

Smallball lives!!

[timvp]

Domestic scouting would hit a new new low if the player the Spurs keep off of this summer league team is Marcus Williams. He's seriously, next to CJ Watson, been the worst player on the team.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

That greek dude would have been better than Marcus
oh yeah we traded him

[mystargtr34]

No not the Greek dude. We cant have anyone remotely resembling Borat running around on the at&t court. I dont care if he is a stud in 5 years thats embarassing.

I cant begin to explain how disappointed ive been with Williams, i mean i dont even wanna talk about him.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Wasn't this williams dude a supposed star in his college? Then that ginger dude took all his minutes or something? Sounds like this overhyped biatch shoulda stayed in school.

[timvp]

That greek dude would have been better than Marcus
oh yeah we traded himI'm sure the Greek Miami Vice character would do more on a basketball court than have long arms.

LameMarcus Williams might be a quality troll name.

[picnroll]

Spurs SL team sucks with the exception of Butler who ahs risen to mediocre. Butler crappy defense will never allow him to get floortime with the Spurs. Better to waive/trade them all and keep spots open for the next Justin Williams of the NBDL

and btw the Spurs ability to select rookie talent appears to suck as well. After the acorns of Parker and Ginobili the blind hogs have resorted back to the averages.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Hermes not only had long arms but everyone was talking about his quick step that = explosiveness and acceleration which often = success to some degree


I have not watched any of the games but I still don't get the hate on Butler's defense. So far its like he's been slow, but if he's still supposedly 20 pounds overweight still, and only a year into his weight management program, he will get quicker by continuing to lose weight wont he?

[itzsoweezee]

Isnt Mahinmi basically an Elson clone? Our three 'future' big men, Splitter Mahinmi and Elson couldnt go for 20 in an empty gym. Butler has legit scoring ability for a near 7 footer plus he is still 20 pounds overweight and only 22. He DOMINATED last years number 9 pick Patrik O'Bryant. The only reason we should consider letting go of Jackie is it Scola was coming over, and we all know that isnt happening.

yup, butler is better than all of those guys, except for scola. looks like the smarts behind the front office is now sitting in Seattle.

[Solid D]

LameMarcus Williams might be a quality troll name.

:lol

[ducks]

maybe the person in seattle was the problem with domestic scouting

[timvp]

Marcus Williams
18.6 minutes
3.6 points
2.4 rebounds
1.0 assists
1.6 turnovers
7-for-28 from the field
4-for-8 from the line

And of those seven made baskets, one of him was a scoring error (he got credit for a Donnell Harvey basket), one of them was a goal tend of a shot that wasn't going in and a third one was when the guy who was guarding slipped on a wet spot on the court.

And he's the keeper.

Classic.

[exstatic]

So the Spurs are telling me, that Jackie Butler isn't better than Francisco Elson.

Excuse me, what fucking games are you motherfuckers watching!?!?!?!!?
I didn't get that from this article. Maybe they think they both suck ass, but they have a better chance to sucker someone into taking 20 something year old Butler's contract than 30 something year old Elson's. Even if both signings are busts, the Spurs didn't get locked into anything long term or expensive. Elson is an ending contract, and Butler is virtually one, having a TEAM option for 08-09.

I've seen some of Butler's skill set, but if he truly isn't "getting" the defense, then he's really of no use.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

there gonna trade him.

unfucking real.

RC Buford continues to fuck up.

What's unfucking real is how you continue to deflect all blame from Pop and Holt :lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"I think the next thing for him is to obviously get in a situation where he can play some minutes. I think if he was ever in a situation where he could play and knew his minutes were coming, I think you would see a guy who would certainly improve."

That situation, however, doesn't figure to be with the Spurs, who are deep and experienced at the center and power forward positions with Tim Duncan, Fabricio Oberto, Robert Horry, Francisco Elson and Matt Bonner.

Farewell Jackie Butler, we hardly knew thee.

Seriously though, if we turn Butler into a salary dump to get under the cap for some future draft pick or some shit, I am going to be majorly pissed at this front office.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

If the Spurs organization did not have such a notorious reputation for doing stuff like what AHF just mentioned, we'd actually have more leverage to trade this guy for something decent. But teams will hold back cuz they know we'll gladly accept a lowball offer.

[timvp]

Hmmmm ... now with Seattle having a $9M+ trade exception, how about Butler and Barry to Seattle for a future second round pick? Then use the money saved to sign someone like Posey, Pietrus or Barnes. I could live with that.

That trade makes decent sense for the Sonics. They need a shooting guard and veteran experience -- Barry would provide both. Butler would give them a young, low post threat. The Sonics are trying to open cap space in two years and those two players work for that plan.

If the Sonics don't want to hurt their future cap space, that could make some sense for them.

[justanotherspursfan]

Hmmmm ... now with Seattle having a $9M+ trade exception, how about Butler and Barry to Seattle for a future second round pick? Then use the money saved to sign someone like Posey, Pietrus or Barnes. I could live with that.

That trade makes decent sense for the Sonics. They need a shooting guard and veteran experience -- Barry would provide both. Butler would give them a young, low post threat. The Sonics are trying to open cap space in two years and those two players work for that plan.

If the Sonics don't want to hurt their future cap space, that could make some sense for them.
The only problem I see is that unless they're ready to cut one of their current guys loose, it seems like the last thing the Sonics need is another project center.

[mystargtr34]

The only problem I see is that unless they're ready to cut one of their current guys loose, it seems like the last thing the Sonics need is another project center.

Swift, and especially Petro, and double especially Sene can barely catch a ball let alone put it in the hoop. They are beyond 'raw talents'. you could not possibly get more raw than Sene, i dont think he played organised basketball before he was drafted. Butler knows how to play the game, and he is blessed with great hands and can make a pass.

But, your right. The Sonics, well the OLD Sonics seemed to be high on all three of these guys. I think they would ship off one of them for Butler.

i think going for a trade exception is def. the way to go. Whats Barry's and Butler's salary make up? $8 mil? I think we could get one of those guys you mentioned for around 6 possibly rhus keeping us under or just at/over the threshhold.

[T Park]

the spurs would make that trade and stand pat.

Trading Jackie Butler for nothing is absolutely sickening.


Unfucking real.

GET RID OF FUCKING ELSON IF YOU WANT TO GET RID OF A FUCKING BIG YOU ASSHOLES!!!!

[Marcus Bryant]

Butler had 11 points and six rebounds during 31 minutes as the Spurs concluded their schedule here Wednesday with a 79-68 loss to Minnesota. With the exception of his foul trouble, the 22-year-old center was one of the Spurs' best players during the five games, averaging 12.2 points and 7.0 rebounds, both highs for the team.


The Spurs also don't have the luxury of sending Butler to Austin to play in the Development League because he's already been in the NBA for more than two seasons. And while Butler has impressed some scouts with his footwork, soft hands and instincts, those same scouts question whether he will ever be successful playing in the Spurs' defensive system, which requires the team's big men to make reads and communicate scheme changes to teammates.


Butler's biggest problem was foul trouble, and referees lacking NBA experience exasperated his struggles. Players are allowed up to 10 personal fouls in summer league. Butler picked up eight in two games and seven in another.

"I thought he had a very physical mentality," Newman said. "But as the game goes on, you have to learn how to adjust."

So Butler is young and dumb. What does that make Elson, old and stupid? If any big should have been in Vegas proving himself it should have been Francisco. Since when did Elson master Spurs Defense?

The Spurs are setting themselves up to lose some of the young talent they've been able to pick up advantageously over the last year. I can easily see them shedding Butler and White for nothing, hoping against hope that Williams finds a way to not suck with the Toros, and bringing Udrih back for another tour of duty. Plus giving up Scola for nothing.

[El_Mago]

Swift is talented around the basket.

The kid has great footwork, soft hands, and is aggressive.

He has a nice hook too.

The Sonics are excited about him. He has bulked up, and you can not blame him for his development....he was literally a teen with potential when he was drafted and then had the injury.....

He should do wonders this season.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

LJ - Cleveland also had a decent trade exception (I wanna say like 6 million or so).

[mystargtr34]

That should put Udrih to good use.

[Marcus Bryant]

Trading a raw young big with Butler's skills is pretty stupid. There is not a basketball reason to provide the impetus to move him. With one, if not two spots opening up next summer in the bigman rotation now is not the time. All fans of the Spurs' luxury tax avoidance tactics should rejoice. You know who you are.

[Marcus Bryant]

Before I forget, did the Spurs draft Williams as a favor to Elliott?

[SenorSpur]

Spurs do not favor domestic players. They're building the international team of this milleninium.

[timvp]

The Spurs are setting themselves up to lose some of the young talent they've been able to pick up advantageously over the last year. I can easily see them shedding Butler and White for nothing, hoping against hope that Williams finds a way to not suck with the Toros, and bringing Udrih back for another tour of duty. Plus giving up Scola for nothing.

Exactly.

The Spurs are acting like they can shed bigman talent because they are overloaded with quality prospects. But in fact, they aren't that loaded.

-Oberto was great in the playoffs. But he sucked for 90% of the regular season. There's a chance he reverts back to regular season form.

-Elson has the rawness of a 21-year-old and the birth certificate of a 31-year-old. He'll excite Spurs fans every fifth game but that's about it.

-Horry can fall off the cliff at any point. You can say he fell off the cliff in three out of the last five seasons. Not to mention this is his last year.

-Bonner is a good piece but he's not more than a 7th or 8th man in a rotation.

-Mahinmi is athletic and fouls people. Not much to go on as far as being good at basketball.

-Splitter is good but he hasn't improved much in the last five years. He could be the future Brazilian Elson if he fails to ever improve again.

Butler and Scola are the two bigmen the Spurs have who actually have some sort of star potential. They are the only two low post scorers. If you want to eventually make things easier for Tim, these are two players who can take some of that low post scoring burden.

But now the Spurs are going to sell them off. And on top of that, they are selling the two players when their value isn't even that high. Then again, the Spurs always seem to sell low for some reason. Who is the last player they sold high?

Bottomline is the Spurs are overconfident in their assortment of bigmen and because of that, they are selling off the two who actually have some type of scoring upside.

Fantastic :rolleyes

[coachmac87]

ok im sorry but is it just me or did johnny ludden and rc say that cj watson was doing alright??? huh...i thought i made a thread about that...

[coachmac87]

i think its hilarious how some many people are jumping off the james white bandwagon. the next spurs project...SPYDA!!!!(AND 1) hell why not try AIR UP THERE :lol

[coachmac87]

Spurs do not favor domestic players. They're building the international team of this milleninium.


not sure if i approve of that....spurs need some domestic players..people dont use their international players as a reason of getting no love in the states...because their great players are not from the states!!!

and come to think of it...looking at the draft and the ones before it..the best players are all domestic..spurs just dont have the luxury of being in the lottery..oh well

[Marcus Bryant]

i think its hilarious how some many people are jumping off the james white bandwagon. the next spurs project...SPYDA!!!!(AND 1) hell why not try AIR UP THERE :lol

Nah, I think it will be a shame to lose White at this point. When he was called upon in the last regular season to play he did very well. He certainly looked like he understood Spurs basketball and that's great considering that he was thrown into the fire.

[coachmac87]

Nah, I think it will be a shame to lose White at this point. When he was called upon in the last regular season to play he did very well. He certainly looked like he understood Spurs basketball and that's great considering that he was thrown into the fire.


ya i honestly thought he did alright also..but i mean come on it just shows this guys work ethic and commitment..he is not taking advantage of the oppurtunity..i honestly think he wouldnt mind sitting on the IR gettin paid a 6 digit salary..i remember him sayin someting in a interview with jackie butler how sitting on the bench and getting paid a pretty nice salary was something he didnt mnid..mentioned having "best seat in the house" i want to hear him say he wants to be a starter or something..he is settling for just an IR player at the moment..

[drmvp]

The Spurs are setting themselves up to lose some of the young talent they've been able to pick up advantageously over the last year. I can easily see them shedding Butler and White for nothing, hoping against hope that Williams finds a way to not suck with the Toros, and bringing Udrih back for another tour of duty. Plus giving up Scola for nothing.

It's going to make me sick if Butler and Scola turn out to be solid players with other teams, especially if the Spurs do give them up for nothing. But, deep down, I guess I'm prepared for that seeming inevitability.

(Regarding Scola, I just don't understand why the Spurs don't pay him, play him, and pimp him. Think about how most of us were willing to give up anything outside the big three for Nocioni. Who here wouldn't have given up two first round picks, players and cash to Chicago? Give Scola some time in the NBA with the Spurs, and I bet you'll have some other GM's salivating.)

As far as White, I've never seen the fascination. Sure, I've seen that dunking video like everyone else, but, frankly, I've never seen him translate that athleticism to the basketball floor. To me, he looks clumsy and flimsy on the court. Sure, he's got that stylish Errol Flynn moustache going for him, but I think his lasting legacy will be as just another exposed, but slick, you-tubing, basketball evangelist who wanted to take grocery money from my grand-momma.

And sorry folks, but I just don't believe that the Spurs have some secretive master plan to sign/deal for Barnes, Pietrus, Posey, etc. I sure wish they do, but I think they really feel that they can repeat without any changes. That's not to say they cannot, and, of course, I'll be rooting for them all the way as a fan. But I also don't believe they're optimizing their chances with that non-strategy. That's what frustrates me.

[Mr. Body]

White just seems more of a system player who plays better around better players. He's been mediocre on a bad team, but could still pan out.

As for Butler, I'd only like trading him if he winds up bringing in the long-needed SF in some fashion.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think White can be a very nice part of the Spurs' perimeter rotation. I liked what I saw of him last season. What stood out was his poise. He seemed to understand Spurs Basketball. His athleticism is a nice bonus.

[aaronstampler]

Domestic scouting would hit a new new low if the player the Spurs keep off of this summer league team is Marcus Williams. He's seriously, next to CJ Watson, been the worst player on the team.

I tried to tell you it was a dumb pick.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's going to make me sick if Butler and Scola turn out to be solid players with other teams, especially if the Spurs do give them up for nothing. But, deep down, I guess I'm prepared for that seeming inevitability.

(Regarding Scola, I just don't understand why the Spurs don't pay him, play him, and pimp him. Think about how most of us were willing to give up anything outside the big three for Nocioni. Who here wouldn't have given up two first round picks, players and cash to Chicago? Give Scola some time in the NBA with the Spurs, and I bet you'll have some other GM's salivating.)

Plus Horry is gone after next season and Elson is likely to follow. The seemingly crowded bigman rotation will open up some next summer. The Spurs could have their pick of Splitter, Scola, Butler, and Mahinmi to fill those spots. It seems as though they have already chosen Splitter and Mahinmi, which is a bit too early, in my opinion.

But such choices aren't too surprising, as the various reports I've seen over the last 12 months point to an emphasis on athleticism with basketball skill as less of a consideration. Plus the price of those two is rather cheap and well defined for up to the first four seasons of their potential Spurs careers.

[Bruno]

Keeping Williams over White is the logical choice.
Both have been bad in this SL (White has been less worst than Williams) but there is a great difference between them :
Williams is 20 years old and has played 2 years in college.
White is 24 years old, has played 4 years in college and has had one pro year (summer league + preseason camp with Indiana, practice + NBDL + gabage time with Spurs).

Williams sucking is disapointing but isn't a big deal. White sucking is more meaningfull and more problematic.

[Mr. Body]

I love these late nite brain trusts, where we put our heads together and puzzle out a situation from manifold angles... and the Spurs turn around and do something bizarre instead.

[Marcus Bryant]

Keeping Williams over White is the logical choice.
Both have been bad in this SL (White has been less worst than Williams) but there is a great difference between them :
Williams is 20 years old and has played 2 years in college.
White is 24 years old, has played 4 years in college and has had one pro year (summer league + preseason camp with Indiana, practice + NBDL + gabage time with Spurs).

Williams sucking is disapointing but isn't a big deal. White sucking is more meaningfull and more problematic.

Problem is, White performed well when he was actually called upon to play in meaningful regular season games in the 2nd half of the season. That carries a little more weight than whatever happened in Vegas.

[Marcus Bryant]

I love these late nite brain trusts, where we put our heads together and puzzle out a situation from manifold angles... and the Spurs turn around and do something bizarre instead.

Ime Udoka seems sufficiently "bizarre"...

[SenorSpur]

As has been indicated, we've seen what White can do in a few games. He certainly didn't look like the rook that he was. I still think he can pan out - I just don't know that the Spurs will be patient enough to wait for him.

It's funny. The Spurs have gone 3-4 seasons needing to identify and start developing a younger, players at the SF/SG spot. Now they've got two budding, young talents and they appear ready to throw them both out inside of 1 year.

[Marcus Bryant]

Keeping Williams over White is the logical choice.
Both have been bad in this SL (White has been less worst than Williams) but there is a great difference between them :
Williams is 20 years old and has played 2 years in college.
White is 24 years old, has played 4 years in college and has had one pro year (summer league + preseason camp with Indiana, practice + NBDL + gabage time with Spurs).

Williams sucking is disapointing but isn't a big deal. White sucking is more meaningfull and more problematic.

Keeping Williams allows the Spurs to put off admitting a mistake and cooling off the 'Buford is the greatest GM in the history of professional basketball' media circle jerk. Ego is always an issue, even for a relatively well-run organization such as the Spurs.

[timvp]

I tried to tell you it was a dumb pick.You said it was a bad pick because he doesn't play defense and doesn't have a team-first attitude. It turns out that playing defense and having a team-first attitude are the only two attributes he has.

I'll give you limited* props if he continues to suck.

[Bruno]

Problem is, White performed well when he was actually called upon to play in meaningful regular season games in the 2nd half of the season. That carries a little more weight than whatever happened in Vegas.

White has played meaningles regular season games against scrubs or garbage time agaisnt scrubs.

[timvp]

Keeping Williams over White is the logical choice.
Both have been bad in this SL (White has been less worst than Williams) but there is a great difference between them :
Williams is 20 years old and has played 2 years in college.
White is 24 years old, has played 4 years in college and has had one pro year (summer league + preseason camp with Indiana, practice + NBDL + gabage time with Spurs).

Williams sucking is disapointing but isn't a big deal. White sucking is more meaningfull and more problematic.I've never seen a perimeter player suck as bad as Williams has in summer league and turn into an NBA player. Summer leagues are made for perimeter players like Williams to flourish.

[Bruno]

Keeping Williams allows the Spurs to put off admitting a mistake and cooling off the 'Buford is the greatest GM in the history of professional basketball' media circle jerk. Ego is always an issue, even for a relatively well-run organization such as the Spurs.

[Marcus Bryant]

White has played meaningles regular season games against scrubs or garbage time agaisnt scrubs.

Better scrubs than in Vegas and he actually played for Popovich and not Don Newman.

[timvp]

White has played meaningles regular season games against scrubs or garbage time agaisnt scrubs.Not true. Four of the six games he played last year were meaningful games. And he got first half action in a couple of those games.

Butler you can say the games were meaningless. But White actually got some decent, quality run last year and played well.

[Bruno]

I've never seen a perimeter player suck as bad as Williams has in summer league and turn into an NBA player. Summer leagues are made for perimeter players like Williams to flourish.

If you want to throw under the bus a 20 years old player after 5 summer league games, it's your choice. I will wait a little more before judging him.

[Marcus Bryant]

They can put Williams in Austin for a season and then quietly let him go next summer.

[Marcus Bryant]

Right now Buford is riding high. He's seen by the media as the architect of the Spurs' four championships. His wunderkind protege is making things happen in Seattle. The Spurs Finals' opponent is known as 'Spurs East'. Another disciple (fairly minor) is building a team around the #1 pick in Portland. The Spurs' modus operandi is the envy of the league. At some point ego becomes an issue.

[timvp]

If you want to throw under the bus a 20 years old player after 5 summer league games, it's your choice. I will wait a little more before judging him.Have you watched any of the games? He plays exactly like 2002 Steve Smith without a jump shot. Perhaps he has another gear or he's playing scared or he's injured or out of position or something.

Chris Carrawell, Bryan Bracey and Romain Sato all played much better in summer league and none of them made it out of their rookie year.

I guess it's time to believe in miracles.

[Bruno]

Not true. Four of the six games he played last year were meaningful games. And he got first half action in a couple of those games.

Butler you can say the games were meaningless. But White actually got some decent, quality run last year and played well.

Ok let's see :

Mar 26 against Warriors : White enters in the third quarter while Spurs were up by 31.
Apr 03 against Seattle : White enters in the fourth quarter while Spurs were up by 28.
Apr 07 against Warriors : White played 10 min and was 1-5 from the field.
Apr 09 against Portland : White played 20 min against Blazers second stringers and Portland was out of the playoffs.
Apr 16 and Apr 18 : garbage games.

:rolleyes

[Mr. Body]

It's gonna kill me the rest of my natural born life the Spurs didn't take someone like DOminic McGuire.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's gonna kill me the rest of my natural born life the Spurs didn't take someone like DOminic McGuire.

I think Josh Howard was worse. Another genius move by Buford.

[Marcus Bryant]

Ginobili is what Buford hangs his hat on. Who knows which Spurs' intern actually came up with that idea. Parker was Presti's. For whatever reason Buford seems to have ironclad job security.

[Bruno]

Perhaps he has another gear or he's playing scared or he's injured or out of position or something.


Exactly. Williams sucks in this summer league and there is likely a reason for that.
Williams was seen as a first round pick during the whole year, he should have some qualities. I will give more time to show them before puting him in the scrubs category.

[timvp]

Ok let's see :

Mar 26 against Warriors : White enters in the third quarter while Spurs were up by 31.
Apr 03 against Seattle : White enters in the fourth quarter while Spurs were up by 28.
Apr 07 against Warriors : White played 10 min and was 1-5 from the field.
Apr 09 against Portland : White played 20 min against Blazers second stringers and Portland was out of the playoffs.
Apr 16 and Apr 18 : garbage games.

:rolleyesSo what part of what you quoted from me was untrue? He played in meaningful games in the first half against the Warriors and Trailblazers.

If you want to hitch your wagon to Marcus Williams, good luck with that.

[mystargtr34]

White just seems more of a system player who plays better around better players. He's been mediocre on a bad team, but could still pan out.

As for Butler, I'd only like trading him if he winds up bringing in the long-needed SF in some fashion.

Its surprisisng that his play in his limited action during the regular season were probably better than his play in Vegas. I would expect the opoosite from the type of player that he is. I would think a long athletic 2/3 would excell in a SL setting and tend to struggle in a set system.

[SenorSpur]

I think Josh Howard was worse. Another genius move by Buford.

No question this was a worse blunder. The FO has been trying to find a long-term answer at that slot ever since the passed on Howard. Funny how this never gets mentioned during the annual Buford love fest.

[Marcus Bryant]

Its surprisisng that his play in his limited action during the regular season were probably better than his play in Vegas. I would expect the opoosite from the type of player that he is. I would think a long athletic 2/3 would excell in a SL setting and tend to struggle in a set system.

Jacque Vaughn is an All-Star point compared to what he's had to play with in Vegas.

[Bruno]

So what part of what you quoted from me was untrue? He played in meaningful games in the first half against the Warriors and Trailblazers.

If you want to hitch your wagon to Marcus Williams, good luck with that.


But White actually got some decent, quality run last year and played well
is false.
He hasn't played well against Warriors and he hasn't played against a good team in portland.
White hasn't played well against a quality team.

[drmvp]

It's gonna kill me the rest of my natural born life the Spurs didn't take someone like DOminic McGuire.

You're exactly right: McGuire looks to be good.

Heck, I bet Stanko Barac's one-legged uncle is better than Marcus Williams.

[spurscenter]

The Spurs also don't have the luxury of sending Butler to Austin to play in the Development League because he's already been in the NBA for more than two seasons.


THE NBA NEEDS TO change this. Make it a true Triple AAA with no restrictions.

[Marcus Bryant]

is false.
He hasn't played well against Warriors and he hasn't played against a good team in portland.
White hasn't played well against a quality team.

9 points and 3 boards in 15 minutes on 3/26. Not bad. White played well against much better competition than he faced in Vegas. And that was actually in the course of the season instead of in the summerleagues with rosters thrown together at the last minute.

[Bruno]

9 points and 3 boards in 15 minutes on 3/26.

On 3/26 he played garbage time, 4/7 is the game I speak.



White played well against much better competition than he faced in Vegas.

Take aside garbage time and garbage game, White highlight of the season was to score 5 points against a Sergio Rodriguez/Fred Jones/Brendan Roy/Travis Outlaw/Ralf Lafrentz lineup against Portland on April 9.
Some teams in Vegas (Portland, Seattle, Wolves..) are better than that.

[jdaveah]

Remember when I was a huge pessimist for saying Williams would disappoint?

I don't really get the huge love of his defense. I've watched all the games and I don't feel like it's been that amazing. Though it doesn't show in the summer games, his mid range shot isn't bad and I'm guessing he's just dealing with nerves. Also, a couple well intentioned interviews does not automatically make him a good character guy. The character stuff is still there, it might take more than a few games to manifest itself but it is there. If Marcus can't figure out how to get to the bucket and create his own shot then he is no use whatsoever to us. As you have all seen now, he can't hit free throws and has no outside shot at all.

One issue with his game that I didn't really anticipate is his ability to play with a strong post man. In his two years at Arizona he never played with any big man who was remotely reliable. In these summer games when trying to play with Butler it looks like he's having difficulty even getting the post entry pass in. Not playing well with a dominant big man is a problem when you want to play on a team with Francisco Elson. And Duncan I guess.

[Marcus Bryant]

Sure, ignoring all the times he played well, he sucked.

[Bruno]

Sure, ignoring all the times he played well, he sucked.

Your point was "White performed well when he was actually called upon to play in meaningful regular season games in the 2nd half of the season."

Sorry but it's false, White has played two times meaningfull minutes : one time he wasn't good and the other time he played against a summer league team.
White has played quite well at the end of the season but it was during garbage time or garbage games.

[timvp]

Waive James White. Trade Jackie Butler for a second round pick. Trade Scola this summer for pennies on the dollar. Mahinmi is a nice guy. Beno Udrih and Marcus Williams are the future.

:guin

[Bruno]

:guin

:rolleyes

[timvp]

:rolleyes

Okay, maybe not the Beno part, but everything else was pretty accurate :)

[Streakyshooter08]

Do they really want to trade Butler? He is so young and showed good things at the summer league...I really don't get it. I'd give him the chance to see what he is able to do early in the reg. season and the decide.

[Bruno]

Okay, maybe not the Beno part, but everything else was pretty accurate :)

Everything else was pretty wrong.

[timvp]

Everything else was pretty wrong.

-You said you'd pick Williams over White. And you've posted in this thread how White being good last year was a mirage.
-You said it'd be a great trade to trade Butler for a second round pick.
-You said the Spurs should trade Scola this summer because you think he'll re-sign in Europe.
-You said Mahinmi can fill the Sean Marks role.
-You said that Williams > White and you still believe in him.

[Kori Ellis]

Exactly. Williams sucks in this summer league and there is likely a reason for that.
Williams was seen as a first round pick during the whole year, he should have some qualities. I will give more time to show them before puting him in the scrubs category.

My issue with Williams is he's so freakin slow. If he's not hurt, then scouts suck. Because right now, he's playing way way too slow to be an NBA player with his skillset.

[Bruno]

You sum up what I've said and by doing that, you change the meaning of my words.


-You said you'd pick Williams over White. And you've posted in this thread how White being good last year was a mirage.

Yes and I haven't said "waive White", I've said if Spurs had one roster spot for Williams and White, waive White.



-You said it'd be a great trade to trade Butler for a second round pick.

No, I've said : "Trading Butler for a trade exception and a second round pick could make a lot of sense for SA".
With Butler palying well in summer leagu, it makes less sense.



-You said the Spurs should trade Scola this summer because you think he'll re-sign in Europe.

I think he will sign a new contract if he stays in europe and I rather get a little for Scola than nothing.
My POV on the Scola's situation :
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1844679&postcount=32



-You said Mahinmi can fill the Sean Marks role.

I've never said that, I've just said that having a 6th bigman not being able to help the team isn't a big deal at all.



-You said that Williams > White and you still believe in him.

I've never said that.

[T Park]

trading butler would be akin to loosing Stephen Jackson for nothing.

STUPID moves.

Thanks RC.

[JPB]

what might makes Ian more valuable in spurs FO eyes is his defense abilities. I think a lot of people don't realize that. In fact, he's probably now the opposite of Jackie.

I know he had some foul trouble issues but all in all he's way more defense-minded than Jackie or Elson. On the other hand, he struggles more on offense but have the skills to be decent in this erea.

I'd take Ian over Jackie and I think that that's spurs choice too.

Maybe Newman's trying to stimulate Jackie and make him understand it's now or never but I doubt it.

[Bruno]

My issue with Williams is he's so freakin slow. If he's not hurt, then scouts suck. Because right now, he's playing way way too slow to be an NBA player with his skillset.

Maybe he is too focused on following coach's instructions and his game lost his spontaneity.

[Spurs Brazil]

Trade Butler will be a terrible decision

If they trade him they must get a good wing prospect in return

Trade him for draft picks will be awful

[drmvp]

I think he will sign a new contract if he stays in europe and I rather get a little for Scola than nothing.


Am I the only one who'd rather Scola stay forever in Europe than to trade him for tiddlywinks? Do you really trust a second round pick in the hands of these Spurs' scouts anymore? After the Marcus "Slow-Poke" Williams selection, I don't.

Even more importantly, I don't want to spend the next 5-8 years banging my head against the wall in frustration as I watch Scola have a potential Carlos Boozer-like impact for some other team. I've had enough banging-of-the-head watching Josh Howard, thank you.

And, also, you're placing a very talented bigman in the league who would play with passionate rage each time he faced the Spurs. Who knows, one day he could wind up on PHX, Dallas or whoever and be the deciding factor in a playoff series. His fire and intensity could become a rallying point and inspiration for his comrades.

As I've said: pay him, play him, pimp him, and parlay him.

Sell high. Otherwise, let him rot. :cooldevil

[5ToolMan]

What's unfucking real is how you continue to deflect all blame from Pop and Holt :lol

What is unreal is the Spurs just won their 4 trophy and have been the best team in all team sports during the time Holt, Pop and RC have been in charge, and some ass hats are talking about blame for any of these three.

The whinning bitches need to change their depends ... or become Celtic or Sixer fans so they can look like they have a clue when the cry. :elephant

[drmvp]

Am I the only one who'd rather Scola stay forever in Europe than to trade him for tiddlywinks? Do you really trust a second round pick in the hands of these Spurs' scouts anymore? After the Marcus "Slow-Poke" Williams selection, I don't.

Even more importantly, I don't want to spend the next 5-8 years banging my head against the wall in frustration as I watch Scola have a potential Carlos Boozer-like impact for some other team. I've had enough banging-of-the-head watching Josh Howard, thank you.

And, also, you're placing a very talented bigman in the league who would play with passionate rage each time he faced the Spurs. Who knows, one day he could wind up on PHX, Dallas or whoever and be the deciding factor in a playoff series. His fire and intensity could become a rallying point and inspiration for his comrades.

As I've said: pay him, play him, pimp him, and parlay him.

Sell high. Otherwise, let him rot. :cooldevil


Say the Spurs had drafted Josh Howard. Now, imagine that Howard had suffered a career-ending knee injury in his very first summer league game and never played a game for the Spurs.

Well, the Spurs are now 3-peat champions.

It's not just who plays for your team. It's also who doesn't play for the other team.

And for Heaven's sake, don't even think about giving Scola to Chicago for a first round pick (a low pick anyway) and/or Duhon. The Bulls are closer than some realize, and they could easily meet the Spurs in the Finals. Don't give the Bulls a chance to work a little Nocioni-Scola Argentinean voodoo against the Spurs.

[whottt]

I like Butler, but I don't think it's automatically a bad idea to trade him...just depends on what we can get for him...yeah, a second round pick is too little...ditto for Scola.


This article doesn't say what the Spurs are willing to trade Butler for...if it's just a second round pick...horrible. But if you can get more than that...because he is a bigman that can score pretty effectively...I think you have to consider it.

I can tell he really wants to be a part of this team and I am pulling for him to make it because I can tell he's trying...but the way he just camps out under the Spurs basket 40% of the time grates on me...I know he cares and is just gassed, but it's a horrible habit he has and it's not one I ever want to see in a regular season Spurs game, by any big. It kinda sucks the energy out of the rest of the team.

He can at least hit the floor like he's hustling for a ball, or fake an injury or something, when he wants a breather, like all the other bigmen do....don't make it so obvious.

Anyway...I am surprised the Spurs want to move him so badly they will publicly admit it, but it could be because they want to move him to fill a need....a greater need than bigman. And maybe this is just a ploy to get better offers for him by pitting some teams against each other.


He seems like a good kid and it does seem like he's trying really hard to be a Spur, but that dragging up the court thing...it just doesn't work for me and I can see why it bothers the Spurs a little too...especially since we all know Pop won't put him on the court if he does that.

Edit: the most annoying thing for me when he does it is that he seems so slow and lumbering...but he's really not. He's really pretty quick for a guy with his bulk once he gets it in gear...once he actually moves...deceptively quick IMO.

[Supergirl]

Butler should stay, at least till midseason, and see if they can work him into the rotation. Sounds like he has a lot of potential and we could use some youth at the C position.

White sounds like he'll be cut, which is disappointing, because I had hopes for him being the next coming of Bowen.

[mountainballer]

The Bulls are closer than some realize, and they could easily meet the Spurs in the Finals. Don't give the Bulls a chance to work a little Nocioni-Scola Argentinean voodoo against the Spurs.

I think the Spurs did realize this. they will prefer to deal with a team like (just guessing) Nets or Bobcats.

btw. Bobcats: now that they have agreed with Gerald Wallace, they are overladed at SF (Wallace, Morrison, Herrmann, Dudley), but very thin at PF. (even if Herrmann and Dudley play some PF). May is almost always injured, Okafor has to play mostly center, Harrington's time is over.
they desperatly need some low post scoring, if they want to get into the POs. (as Jordan stated)
their other areas of need are also areas, where the Spurs could offer something. (back up PG, shooters, size)

[objective]

All this Butler talk should remind people that the reason they are close to 3 million over the tax level is because of the last contract they agreed to . . . Matt Bonner for 3 million per.

------------

and re: Mahinmi as a defender . . . fouls aside, an interesting tidbit about Mahinmi is that in the euroleague, his blocks/per40 minutes rate was the same as Luis Scola, who everyone hates on as a defender. Make of that what you will.

[picnroll]

Does anyone here really think Butler's defense has shown any potetnial whatsoever? Has anyone here seen Butler beat a single other player down the floor? Has anyone here seen Butler get a rebound that wasn't within 3 feet of him? Is there anyone here that doesn't wish the Spurs had had an open space on the roster that Butler left last year and used it to sign Justin Williams? If Butler is the Spurs answer the future truly sucks.

[spurster]

It's seems that the argument is about who sucks the least. All of these guys need a few years in Europe or the NBDL.

[Darkwaters]

Would we consider a Butler for Walter Hermann trade?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Pop is my daddy, so I'll deflect all blame to R.C.[\QUOTE]


[QUOTE=5ToolMan]What is unreal is the Spurs just won their 4 trophy and have been the best team in all team sports during the time Holt, Pop and RC have been in charge, and some ass hats are talking about blame for any of these three.

The whinning bitches need to change their depends ... or become Celtic or Sixer fans so they can look like they have a clue when the cry. :elephant

What is unreal is defending a front office that is on course to dump a lot of its cheap young talent in favor of standing pat with an ancient and still aging rotation of players.

The championships are great, but the Spurs don't operate in a vacuum. Other teams are trying to get better to beat them, we didn't have to face the one team built to beat us (Dallas), and after next year we've got all of 5 players under contract.

Couple that with the fact the Spurs seem to have already decided that two guys who have played zero combined minutes in the NBA (Splitter and Scola), partially probably due to salary cap considerations, and the front office deserves calling out.

Holt, Pop, R.C., all three of them.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I like Butler, but I don't think it's automatically a bad idea to trade him...just depends on what we can get for him...yeah, a second round pick is too little...ditto for Scola.


This article doesn't say what the Spurs are willing to trade Butler for...if it's just a second round pick...horrible. But if you can get more than that...because he is a bigman that can score pretty effectively...I think you have to consider it.

I don't mind trading him if it gets us our coveted long SF. The problem is you can easily read between the lines and see the Spurs are looking to trade him wherever they can to get under the luxury tax threshold. Which means draft picks and trade exceptions, no players coming back.

[mountainballer]

Would we consider a Butler for Walter Hermann trade?

i would. anytime.

[Soul_Patch]

the spurs front office just stinks of arrogance in my opinion. These teams are very VERY close to beating us last year...they are all making moves to improve.


I honestly don't like our chances of a repeat, and even bleaker outlook for years to come...

They seem to always be totaly disinterested with any future prospects...im really at a loss as to what will happen when 1 or 2 of the big three drop, and pop calls it quits...are we just gonna hang a sign on the door saying, out of business? Houston is -------> that way....


arghh..

[Gros Membres!]

White and Butler both suck. I don't think it's too much to ask young players to show the potential that they can put together a quality game and fit into a system based on the needs of the team. I've always thought these guys were a long shot and I wouldn't be surprised if Butler is shipped for a trade exception and White is cut.

Good riddance. Maybe now instead of trolling around for band-aids the FO will see the need to spend some money on a prospect or make some moves to acquire one.

[Gros Membres!]

i would. anytime.
What's the difference between Hermann and Oberto?

Hermann
Born: June 26, 1979
Santa Fe, Argentina
Height: 6-9
Weight: 225 lbs.
Age: 28
Pos: F
2007 Salary: $1,800,000

Oberto
Born: Mar 21, 1975
Height: 6-10 / 2,08
Weight: 245 lbs. / 111,1 kg.
From : Argentina
Years Pro: 2

One inch and twenty pounds. Probably a little salary as well after the deals are finalized. Charlotte just re-upped Hermann. Why the hell would they now trade him to us when they have their wings and front court shaping up?

[VaSpursFan]

Would we consider a Butler for Walter Hermann trade?

i would pull the trigger on that. hermann is a player. i watched him throw up numbers late last season with the bobcats. he's a player. i didn't know what to expect from him but he showed me a lot.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

White and Butler both suck. I don't think it's too much to ask young players to show the potential that they can put together a quality game and fit into a system based on the needs of the team. I've always thought these guys were a long shot and I wouldn't be surprised if Butler is shipped for a trade exception and White is cut.

Good riddance. Maybe now instead of trolling around for band-aids the FO will see the need to spend some money on a prospect or make some moves to acquire one.

We're up against the lux tax. They won't be spending money. Hell, they have the MLE to use this year when guys like Barnes and Biedrins are available, and they are keeping it tucked away in their back pocket.

[ploto]

I have tried to tell you what the Spurs plans are for Butler but all I got was called a racist. Don't shoot the messenger. They aren't going to get back some great SF prospect- they want to dump salary.

The Spurs are all set to have 2 cheap big men- Ian and Splitter- by virtue of their first round draft status.

[VaSpursFan]

What's the difference between Hermann and Oberto?

Hermann
Born: June 26, 1979
Santa Fe, Argentina
Height: 6-9
Weight: 225 lbs.
Age: 28
Pos: F
2007 Salary: $1,800,000

Oberto
Born: Mar 21, 1975
Height: 6-10 / 2,08
Weight: 245 lbs. / 111,1 kg.
From : Argentina
Years Pro: 2

One inch and twenty pounds. Probably a little salary as well after the deals are finalized. Charlotte just re-upped Hermann. Why the hell would they now trade him to us when they have their wings and front court shaping up?

hermann played small forward, aggressive, capable 3 point shooter, boards well...he'd be a great long 3 or small ball 4. a helluva lot better than bonner. that would be a nice exchange IMO

[Marcus Bryant]

What's the basketball reason for letting Butler go for nothing?

[Marcus Bryant]

What's really driving this? The Spurs have him under contract for next season on a small salary and they can bring him back for one more after that, once the bigman rotation thins out a little. So what if he isn't good enough to make the All-NBA 1st Defensive team? Develop him.

Why can't the Spurs just come out and state that they don't want to pay the luxury tax? That's a bit better than dumping on a young bigman who's shown that he is committed to the team and improving his game.

[Marcus Bryant]

Further, what low post scorers do the Spurs have other than TD? Last season the Spurs' offense was stymied when they had no one to go to in the post. A player like Butler would help to keep TD's minutes down in the regular season and give the Spurs a wrinkle they haven't had before.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Keep Butler. Trade Barry.

[timvp]

Does anyone here really think Butler's defense has shown any potetnial whatsoever?

A) He's 22-year-old and has played less organized basketball than anyone in the league at his age. How do Spurs fans expect him to be a decent defender when he hasn't played that much basketball at a high level?

B) He is improving. From last preseason to summer league, he has gotten a lot better. He shows on pick-and-rolls a lot better and his rotations are getting better. He's definitely a work in progress.

C) He is still losing weight. Diop and Haslem went from horrible defenders to great defenders after getting in shape. If Butler lost weight, got some experience and continued to learn, there's no reason why he couldn't be a decent defender down the road.


Has anyone here seen Butler beat a single other player down the floor?

You obviously aren't watching the summer league games. When he's fresh, he has routinely beat everyone up and down the court. His speed is greatly improved. He still has problems with endurance ... but that is correctable.


Has anyone here seen Butler get a rebound that wasn't within 3 feet of him?

He's rebounding well in summer league. He's averaging more rebounds total and more rebounds per minute than anyone on the team. And that's including Donnell Harvey, who all he does out there is try to rebound the ball.

Butler is leading the team in rebounds, leading the team in rebounds per minute, got 12 boards against one of the better front lines in summer league (Powe and Big Baby) and it's still not enough for a 22-year-old center who is still learning the game and getting in better shape?


Is there anyone here that doesn't wish the Spurs had had an open space on the roster that Butler left last year and used it to sign Justin Williams?

Uh, the Spurs did have an open roster spot. Justin Williams was waived on October 27th. James White was signed on November 3rd. And what makes you think the Spurs have the domestic scouting available to find a gem?

When this team has looked for domestic talent that was free during the year, it's come away with players like Melvin Sanders, Dion Glover and Alex Scales. :lol


If Butler is the Spurs answer the future truly sucks.

Yeah, it sucks to have a center leading a summer league team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks who is younger than a lot of players in the 2007 draft. It especially sucks because he has played less organized basketball than practically anyone who was drafted in the first round.

:rolleyes

Butler is an improving, young bigman prospect with a huge amount of untapped potential. He could be great in the future or he could suck. He hasn't played enough to figure it out one way or the other.

Selling low on Butler makes no sense to me. Sure he still has trouble defensively and needs to get better conditioned. But he's going along that path.

How great would Fabricio Oberto have been at 22-year-old plus thirty pounds in the Spurs program? He'd have been thousands of times worse than Butler. Even if David Robinson was out of shape and joining this team at 22, he still wouldn't have done much more than Butler did.

The impatience and short-sightedness of the Spurs and Spurs fans is amazing in this situation. They want to give away an improving bigman prospect who at 22 can already dominate the summer league level, has a high basketball IQ and still has plenty of room to work on his conditioning.

Amazing. :pctoss

[DR WU]

Isnt Mahinmi basically an Elson clone? Our three 'future' big men, Splitter Mahinmi and Elson couldnt go for 20 in an empty gym. Butler has legit scoring ability for a near 7 footer plus he is still 20 pounds overweight and only 22. He DOMINATED last years number 9 pick Patrik O'Bryant. The only reason we should consider letting go of Jackie is it Scola was coming over, and we all know that isnt happening.

Butler is a tough mactchup but he's too dumb to learn the plays. (read between the lines.)

[Marcus Bryant]

I guess the Spurs can bring in Mahinmi as their 'future bigman project' at one-fourth the cost. Great.

[Marcus Bryant]

Butler is a tough mactchup but he's too dumb to learn the plays. (read between the lines.)

Spurs need an excuse when they can't admit it's about the $. Butler's shown more knowledge of the game than Mahinmi.

[timvp]

Butler is a tough mactchup but he's too dumb to learn the plays. (read between the lines.)

:lol

Butler's basketball IQ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Elson and Mahinmi combined.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I wouldn't get rid of Butler unless you're gettting similar talent in return. Dropping him to stay under the cap (trading for a 2nd rounder) would be a huge mistake.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Butler is a tough mactchup but he's too dumb to learn the plays. (read between the lines.)

http://www.greenfacts.org/images/glossary/cocaine.jpg

That's the only place you can get that kind of take.

Like LJ said, he's improving every facet of his game and he's so young with a ton of potential.

The Spurs are already in spin mode trying to explain away the upcoming trade of him for 'cap space', i.e., getting underneath the luxury tax threshold.

It's lame. And so is our front office.

[ducks]

butler can play during the regular season
horry is a no show tell way after allstar break

[Marcus Bryant]

Butler has the potential to be a solid starting 5 in this league, one who could put up 13-15 points, 8 to 10 boards, and 2 blocks a night. It's way too early to be giving up on him. Jack was just as raw, if not moreso, and the Spurs kept him after his first year in SA on IR.

Jettisoning Butler at this point would be pretty stupid, but I'd expect nothing less from Buford, one of the most overrated front office types in the NBA today.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If they're going to trade someone, it needs to be one of Barry and/or Udrih.

[wildbill2u]

Splitter >>>>>>Butler. Look at the whole picture instead of Summer League.

He has been playing in a damn good Euro league, has good moves and hands especially on the pick and roll, good speed for a big, rebounds and will score some and will play tough D.

Almost as important: since TD is playing closer to the basket now, he can move outside to the high post.

As soon as they got Splitter, Butler became yesterday's news. Get what you can for him.

[picnroll]

A) He's 22-year-old and has played less organized basketball than anyone in the league at his age. How do Spurs fans expect him to be a decent defender when he hasn't played that much basketball at a high level?

B) He is improving. From last preseason to summer league, he has gotten a lot better. He shows on pick-and-rolls a lot better and his rotations are getting better. He's definitely a work in progress.

C) He is still losing weight. Diop and Haslem went from horrible defenders to great defenders after getting in shape. If Butler lost weight, got some experience and continued to learn, there's no reason why he couldn't be a decent defender down the road.



You obviously aren't watching the summer league games. When he's fresh, he has routinely beat everyone up and down the court. His speed is greatly improved. He still has problems with endurance ... but that is correctable.



He's rebounding well in summer league. He's averaging more rebounds total and more rebounds per minute than anyone on the team. And that's including Donnell Harvey, who all he does out there is try to rebound the ball.

Butler is leading the team in rebounds, leading the team in rebounds per minute, got 12 boards against one of the better front lines in summer league (Powe and Big Baby) and it's still not enough for a 22-year-old center who is still learning the game and getting in better shape?



Uh, the Spurs did have an open roster spot. Justin Williams was waived on October 27th. James White was signed on November 3rd. And what makes you think the Spurs have the domestic scouting available to find a gem?

When this team has looked for domestic talent that was free during the year, it's come away with players like Melvin Sanders, Dion Glover and Alex Scales. :lol



Yeah, it sucks to have a center leading a summer league team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks who is younger than a lot of players in the 2007 draft. It especially sucks because he has played less organized basketball than practically anyone who was drafted in the first round.

:rolleyes

Butler is an improving, young bigman prospect with a huge amount of untapped potential. He could be great in the future or he could suck. He hasn't played enough to figure it out one way or the other.

Selling low on Butler makes no sense to me. Sure he still has trouble defensively and needs to get better conditioned. But he's going along that path.

How great would Fabricio Oberto have been at 22-year-old plus thirty pounds in the Spurs program? He'd have been thousands of times worse than Butler. Even if David Robinson was out of shape and joining this team at 22, he still wouldn't have done much more than Butler did.

The impatience and short-sightedness of the Spurs and Spurs fans is amazing in this situation. They want to give away an improving bigman prospect who at 22 can already dominate the summer league level, has a high basketball IQ and still has plenty of room to work on his conditioning.

Amazing. :pctoss

What do they say about putting up stats on a reaalllly bad team. How's the young fellows FG%. Butler rotates out on the P&R now you're right. Problem is his rotations back make Shaq look like DRob.

I remember Pop talking to Butler about Moses Malone and watching tape of his game. Malone should sue for him slander.

[wildbill2u]

Sanizkhadzi >>>>>> White. Again, look at the big picture. From what I could tell of the reports of the Summer league, most people who watched thought Sani was a keeper with lots of upside potential--probably more than White.

Apparently Sani is taller and better shot and rebounder than White and plays good Defense with lots of hustle. LOOOONG THREE>with hands and moves.

White's biggest attribute is that he can jump high & dunk--as long as there's no contact going up. BFD.

[Marcus Bryant]

Splitter >>>>>>Butler. Look at the whole picture instead of Summer League.

He has been playing in a damn good Euro league, has good moves and hands especially on the pick and roll, good speed for a big, rebounds and will score some and will play tough D.

Almost as important: since TD is playing closer to the basket now, he can move outside to the high post.

As soon as they got Splitter, Butler became yesterday's news. Get what you can for him.

You need someone to give TD a rest. It would be nice if they could post up. Butler can provide that. Not every international prospect who comes down the pike is guaranteed to pan out.

The 'whole picture' is that Splitter replaces Elson.

[timvp]

Splitter >>>>>>Butler. Look at the whole picture instead of Summer League.

He has been playing in a damn good Euro league, has good moves and hands especially on the pick and roll, good speed for a big, rebounds and will score some and will play tough D.

Almost as important: since TD is playing closer to the basket now, he can move outside to the high post.

As soon as they got Splitter, Butler became yesterday's news. Get what you can for him.

Splitter is like an improved Elson. He's nothing like Butler. He has no post game to speak of. Not a good passer. Doesn't have an especially high basketball IQ. He'll be a below average scorer on the NBA level.

Yeah, he'll be a good defender and he's fast but it's a bad comparison because they are nothing alike. Splitter is a light power forward. Butler is a center.

[objective]

in marginal and slight defense of Ludden not mentioning Sanikidze, who only played limited minutes, is that Sanikidze hasn't been mentioned at all in any of the summer league game breakdowns at either draftexpress or nbadraft. Though of course as a former 2nd round pick of the Spurs he deserved at least a brief mention from Ludden.

[timvp]

What do they say about putting up stats on a reaalllly bad team. The realllly bad team won two games against teams with much more talent.


How's the young fellows FG%. 45%. Take out his eight missed dunks and it'd be 52%. If he would have made those dunks, he'd be at 60%.


Butler rotates out on the P&R now you're right. Problem is his rotations back make Shaq look like DRob.Again, 22-years-old. He's as old as a standard rookie. Plus his conditioning can improve.

There is no hope for improvement defensively? Would a 22-year-old David Robinson plus 30 pounds and minus college experience be much better?


I remember Pop talking to Butler about Moses Malone and watching tape of his game. Malone should sue for him slander.

Yeah, because at 22 with little basketball experience, Butler has obviously peaked and has no room for improvement.

:dizzy

[timvp]

What makes sense is to put Elson back in his 12th man role where the Spurs found him, play Butler behind Oberto and see what they have. If he doesn't show enough, you trade him for whatever it is you can get (which would be the same as what you could get for him now). If he starts to tap into his potential, you can either keep him or get much more in a trade than you can get now.

Trading him this summer is the stupidest option of them all.

[Mr. Body]

Splitter is like an improved Elson. He's nothing like Butler. He has no post game to speak of. Not a good passer. Doesn't have an especially high basketball IQ. He'll be a below average scorer on the NBA level.

Splitter has decent post moves, or at least above marginal, though not in Butler's class. He cuts very well off the ball, however. I'd say his basketball IQ is pretty high. Not Oberto class, but more than good. He know the game and is a smart defender, even at times to the perimeter; his pick and roll defense and recoveries would be top notch. He might be a below average scorer in the NBA, but we haven't needed scoring from our center position in a long time.

[picnroll]

The realllly bad team won two games against teams with much more talent.

45%. Take out his eight missed dunks and it'd be 52%. If he would have made those dunks, he'd be at 60%.

Again, 22-years-old. He's as old as a standard rookie. Plus his conditioning can improve.

There is no hope for improvement defensively? Would a 22-year-old David Robinson plus 30 pounds and minus college experience be much better?

Yeah, because at 22 with little basketball experience, Butler has obviously peaked and has no room for improvement.

:dizzy
If Butler truly has all the talent and potential you see in him I'll be looking forward to that high first round draft the Spurs can garner in the deal.

[remingtonbo2001]

Spurs will keep Butler, unless there's a deal sitting which is just too ridiculous to pass up. I'm sure there's a lot of interest in him, but I think the Spurs see a lot of potential in him. The biggest issue, has been is attitude, which is beginning to turn around. With White, I'm not sure what to expect. The coaching staff could be stiring up the kettle with White, maybe let his emotions push him a little more. Just b/c Newmann has been critical, doesn't mean the Spurs are down on White. Quite often, critisim comes b/c a player is capable of more. So, in an attempt to get this potential outta White, the Spurs stir up the kettle a little.

[timvp]

Splitter has decent post moves, or at least above marginal, though not in Butler's class. He cuts very well off the ball, however. I'd say his basketball IQ is pretty high. Not Oberto class, but more than good. He know the game and is a smart defender, even at times to the perimeter; his pick and roll defense and recoveries would be top notch. He might be a below average scorer in the NBA, but we haven't needed scoring from our center position in a long time.

I've never seen a decent post move out of Splitter. He has robotic, rudimentary moves on the low block. Tau doesn't even give him much chances to score on the low blow block because he has so few moves down there.

His basketball IQ is decent but nothing to write back to Brazil about. He doesn't have the greatest of instincts. It's an improvement over Elson, but not much higher at this point.

[timvp]

If Butler truly has all the talent and potential you see in him I'll be looking forward to that high first round draft the Spurs can garner in the deal.

Only way you get value for him is if you keep him and trade him when his value increases. If you trade him off now, everyone knows the Spurs are desperate and they'll land something like a second round pick.

[objective]

There is no hope for improvement defensively? Would a 22-year-old David Robinson plus 30 pounds and minus college experience be much better?

I understand the point you're trying to make, and don't disagree with much, I'd just like to say that bringing up David Robinson, even with qualifiers like an extra 30 pounds and no NCAA experience, is ridiculous, no matter the qualifiers.

Robinson was 21 when he was the #1 pick even when everyone knew they'd have to wait 2 years to get him. The reason Robinson never weighed an extra 30 pounds may mostly be genetics, but lifestyle played at least a part of it.

So yes, a 22 David Robinson would be much better.

[Mr. Body]

You don't post Splitter up, but he can toss in hooks and can make shots with both hands. Perhaps I overstated, but he will score on offensive rebounds - where he's terrific - and on cuts. Defensively he's very good with a very nice understanding of the game. I'd write back to Brazil about his basketball IQ. It's at least as good as Butler, if in another way.

[Marcus Bryant]

What I want to know is how a player like Butler is on the outs when Udrih is on the roster? Who is on the Spurs' summerleague team working on his game? That's the real shame.

[Marcus Bryant]

Beno could've done himself and the Spurs a big favor by showing up for one of the summerleague teams. Plus we'd actually see how some of these young prospects would fare with a better than marginally talented point guard at the helm.

[picnroll]

Only way you get value for him is if you keep him and trade him when his value increases. If you trade him off now, everyone knows the Spurs are desperate and they'll land something like a second round pick. I don't buy that with all the teams that are desperate for a low post scoring big man with literlly none to be had. Spurs may be "desperate" but teams would still be competing against each other to land Butler if he had all this potetnial, particularly when you look at his contract where they basically have a year to look, a year after that at their option and then Bird rights if he pans out.

[Marcus Bryant]

LJUBLJANA, Slovenia (Ticker) -- Slovenia celebrated as one of its own, Beno Udrih, won an NBA title with the San Antonio Spurs.

The applause has now stopped, however, with the guard having told national team coach Ales Pipan he will not play at the EuroBasket in order to prepare for the final year of his contract.


link (http://www.sbrforum.com/Headlines/NBA/46198.aspx)


WTF is he doing this summer? You'd think with a contract year upcoming he'd be getting his ass in shape and seeking any venue to show the league he can still play. Tearing up the summerleagues would've been a good first step for him.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Splitter >>>>>>Butler. Look at the whole picture instead of Summer League.

He has been playing in a damn good Euro league, has good moves and hands especially on the pick and roll, good speed for a big, rebounds and will score some and will play tough D.

Almost as important: since TD is playing closer to the basket now, he can move outside to the high post.

As soon as they got Splitter, Butler became yesterday's news. Get what you can for him.

If you were looking at the whole picture you'd see that Splitter is a PF, while Butler is a legit center.

You'd also see Butler has a low post game while Splitter doesn't. And you'd put that together with the fact that the Spurs offense, which is built around a low post initiated offense, stagnates whenever Duncan goes out, and realize Butler is a better fit.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Splitter has decent post moves, or at least above marginal, though not in Butler's class. He cuts very well off the ball, however. I'd say his basketball IQ is pretty high. Not Oberto class, but more than good. He know the game and is a smart defender, even at times to the perimeter; his pick and roll defense and recoveries would be top notch. He might be a below average scorer in the NBA, but we haven't needed scoring from our center position in a long time.

Splitter doesn't have jack for post moves, unless you get some good 'shrooms and come up with the idea that offensive rebound putbacks are 'post moves'.

His basketball IQ is about what Elson's is, which combined doesn't equate to what Butler has.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I don't buy that with all the teams that are desperate for a low post scoring big man with literlly none to be had. Spurs may be "desperate" but teams would still be competing against each other to land Butler if he had all this potetnial, particularly when you look at his contract where they basically have a year to look, a year after that at their option and then Bird rights if he pans out.

If you were right, teams would be offering us more than a second round pick for Scola, who is considered the best low post player in Europe.

Gotta side with LJ on this one.

[timvp]

WTF is he doing this summer?


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/tymarion/lbt.jpg

And yeah, there is absolutely no reason why Beno shouldn't be playing in summer league. If Amare Stoudemire and Ron Artest could play last year, Beno Udrih can play this year.

[El_Mago]

I sent White a text.

I guarantee he turns it on in Salt Lake City.

[Marcus Bryant]

I can see it on the basis of the hassles with Tau over the years if the Spurs opt to drop Scola. Not that I would think it great. But dumping Butler this summer for nothing would be terminally stupid.

[Marcus Bryant]

And yeah, there is absolutely no reason why Beno shouldn't be playing in summer league. If Amare Stoudemire and Ron Artest could play last year, Beno Udrih can play this year.

Well at least the Spurs won't have to worry about him tearing it up in a contract year and forcing them to give him another contract.

[timvp]

Right now, the most you can get for Butler is an early second round pick and a trade exception. At most you might be able to take back a player and get a late first rounder, but I highly doubt it.

When teams are openly dumping a player like the Spurs are, you are lucky to get a couple pennies for a dollar.

[Marcus Bryant]

Pop must open up a magnum or two whenever he thinks about what Beno could be versus what Beno is willing to be.

[Marcus Bryant]

Right now, the most you can get for Butler is an early second round pick and a trade exception. At most you might be able to take back a player and get a late first rounder, but I highly doubt it.

When teams are openly dumping a player like the Spurs are, you are lucky to get a couple pennies for a dollar.

Yeah, way to up the old trade value. The articles and quotes we read should be more along the lines of 'young Spurs bigman is tearing it up in Vegas, but a stacked roster and luxury tax concerns may force the Spurs to lose him'.

[timvp]

Well at least the Spurs won't have to worry about him tearing it up in a contract year and forcing them to give him another contract.

It's amazing there isn't more Beno outcry. He's gotten fatter since he got on the Spurs. He complains about being asked to work out after practice. He isn't willing to go to summer league. Beno doesn't really care about anything outside of partying, breakfast tacos, Latinas and cashing his check

And yet when Pop opts to go with a veteran who cares about winning like Nick Van Exel or Jacque Vaughn, the same fans who want Butler shipped out of town complain about Udrih not getting a fair shake.

Classic. :rollin

[picnroll]

If you were right, teams would be offering us more than a second round pick for Scola, who is considered the best low post player in Europe.

Gotta side with LJ on this one.
Teams are jumping all over Washington to get the rights to Navarro. I think they just aren't nearly as impressed that Scola's game will translate as well to the NBA. Even Garbajosa, a lesser Euroleague star, was view3ed as having a better NBA game I believe.

[picnroll]

If you were right, teams would be offering us more than a second round pick for Scola, who is considered the best low post player in Europe.

Gotta side with LJ on this one.
Teams are all Washington for Navarro's rights. I don't think they view Scola's game translating well to the NBA or have serious concerns as do many here. Even Garbajosa, a lesser Euroleague star, wa viewed as a better NBA prospect because of his ability on D and shooting form distance.

[lotr1trekkie]

How come most of the posters show so little respect for the Spurs DECIDERS who have given us 3 titles since 2003? Guess what? Ludden's columns are based on off the record conversations, not who he quotes. You need to read between the lines because most good jounalists know that is the way the system works. It sounds to me that Mahinmi is in and Butler is out. If it works out in reverse so be it. It is less then intelligent to deride the messenger.

[Marcus Bryant]

Teams are all Washington for Navarro's rights. I don't think they view Scola's game translating well to the NBA or have serious concerns as do many here. Even Garbajosa, a lesser Euroleague star, wa viewed as a better NBA prospect because of his ability on D and shooting form distance.

I think Scola's buyout troubles might be a reason. In addition to interest from the Bulls, there was at least one article which stated that multiple teams were interested in him.

[ploto]

Butler is a center.

Butler is the only true center on the Spurs which is apparently in today's NBA a mortal sin.

[picnroll]

I think Scola's buyout troubles might be a reason. In addition to interest from the Bulls, there was at least one article which stated that multiple teams were interested in him.
His buyout is murky but at this point it seems like a contract offer similar to what Oberto got or even Garbajosa would work with him absorbing the buyout to get to the NBA. Maybe it's the cost plus what they'd have to give up to the Spurs but I think a large part for all teams is whether he can play in the NBA or be another Eurodud.

Navarro has a buyout too.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm going to guess that Navarro's contract's buyout clause is a bit more defined than Scola's.

[mountainballer]

How come most of the posters show so little respect for the Spurs DECIDERS who have given us 3 titles since 2003?

because we painful miss 2 more.

[ploto]

I think Scola's buyout troubles might be a reason. In addition to interest from the Bulls, there was at least one article which stated that multiple teams were interested in him.
Personally, I think it has more to do with the Spurs perceived atttiude toward players- who, if the Spurs don't want them, seem to have Scarlett letters on their chests. The Spurs tear down their value publicly to appease fans and explain why they are not on the team or why they want to trade them and then can't get anything for them.

So far Scola has been portrayed as stupid for signing his deal, angry about being told to work on things, greedy for wanting Matt Bonner type money, and not a good fit on the team.

Butler is fat and lazy, but then when he plays well, he's in need of more playing time. It has already been determined that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He is in the summer league working on his game and trying to show the Spurs what he can do, but they just see it as a means to increase the chance of trading him.

Not to make excuses- repeat, NOT an acceptable excuse, but I think with Beno that is part of what happened, that notion that it didn't really matter what you do after a certain point. If you play well, it is ONLY to boost your trade value not your possible standing with the team. If Beno plays in the summer league- it ups his chance of getting traded- that is all. It will not make him the back-up PG on the Spurs.

[picnroll]

Personally, I think it has more to do with the Spurs perceived atttiude toward players- who, if the Spurs don't want them, seem to have Scarlett letters on their chests. The Spurs tear down their value publicly to appease fans and explain why they are not on the team or why they want to trade them and then can't get anything for them.

So far Scola has been portrayed as stupid for signing his deal, angry about being told to work on things, greedy for wanting Matt Bonner type money, and not a good fit on the team.


Yes, becuase Malik, Nazr, even the much beloved Rasho who'll be seeing less and less playing time, have proven to be cornerstones of their new teams when dealt. I'd say the Spurs made the right call in spades on all three of those players and the teams they've gone to have proven it

[ploto]

You totally missed the point. I am talking about Spurs free agents who the Spurs bad-mouthed and who did not get the appropriate contracts after they left the team. Or moreso, players who they would not re-sign who seemed to be blackballed from the league after that. Any player the Spurs reject gets publicly maligned and the fans eat it up. And the story changes from year to year to come up with the new next excuse when the previous one makes no more sense- eg, Butler.

[Marcus Bryant]

Personally, I think it has more to do with the Spurs perceived atttiude toward players- who, if the Spurs don't want them, seem to have Scarlett letters on their chests. The Spurs tear down their value publicly to appease fans and explain why they are not on the team or why they want to trade them and then can't get anything for them.

So far Scola has been portrayed as stupid for signing his deal, angry about being told to work on things, greedy for wanting Matt Bonner type money, and not a good fit on the team.

Butler is fat and lazy, but then when he plays well, he's in need of more playing time. It has already been determined that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He is in the summer league working on his game and trying to show the Spurs what he can do, but they just see it as a means to increase the chance of trading him.

Not to make excuses- repeat, NOT an acceptable excuse, but I think with Beno that is part of what happened, that notion that it didn't really matter what you do after a certain point. If you play well, it is ONLY to boost your trade value not your possible standing with the team. If Beno plays in the summer league- it ups his chance of getting traded- that is all. It will not make him the back-up PG on the Spurs.

Sure, the Spurs' media lackeys always manage to dog every player the team loses. Standard procedure.

[wildbill2u]

If you were looking at the whole picture you'd see that Splitter is a PF, while Butler is a legit center.

You'd also see Butler has a low post game while Splitter doesn't. And you'd put that together with the fact that the Spurs offense, which is built around a low post initiated offense, stagnates whenever Duncan goes out, and realize Butler is a better fit.
I see Splitter actually getting some minutes outside or at the high post like a PF with TD or oberto at the low post. He has a better all-around game.

On the other hand, unless Butler could raise his defense to an acceptable level, he won't get many minutes on the Spurs to post home about. we've never relied on the center position to take up the offensive slack when TD goes out.

And that's the difference.

[picnroll]

You totally missed the point. I am talking about Spurs free agents who the Spurs bad-mouthed and who did not get the appropriate contracts after they left the team. Or moreso, players who they would not re-sign who seemed to be blackballed from the league after that. Any player the Spurs reject gets publicly maligned and the fans eat it up.
Where have they badmouthed Butler of late? Ludden, the Spurs mouthpiece, has said the Spurs are willing to move him. There are a bunch of teams right now who've indicated they'd move players if they could for multiple reasons, including luxury tax, roster space openings, getting needed pieces. They've said nothing negative about Barry. They've even not said anything negative about Beno although most likley Pop would love to strangle the lazy asses throat. Obviously they are not thrilled with wht they bring for their cost or they wouldn't want to trade them.

[Marcus Bryant]

Where have they badmouthed Butler of late? Ludden, the Spurs mouthpiece, has said the Spurs are willing to move him. There are a bunch of teams right now who've indicated they'd move players if they could for multiple reasons, including luxury tax, roster space openings, getting needed pieces. They've said nothing negative about Barry. They've even not said anything negative about Beno although most likley Pop would love to strangle the lazy asses throat. Obviously they are not thrilled with wht they bring for their cost or they wouldn't want to trade them.


'Fouls a lot and is unable to play defense.'

[Mr. Body]

If Splitter is a PF then Scola must have been playing SF all this time.

[picnroll]

'Fouls a lot and is unable to play defense.' They've also said Duncan doesn't shoot free throws well. I don't think stating what's obvious counts.

[Marcus Bryant]

Butler is still a prospect. It makes no sense to dump on him at this point unless the Spurs are ready to run him out because they are afraid of the lux tax bogeyman.

[AFBlue]

My take on Butler:

Trading Butler at this time, just to get near/under the lux tax line is unbelievably stupid.

This kid not only showcased the abilities most already knew he had (rebounding and post-scoring), but also showed some abilities that no scouts had on him. He's got a very good BBIQ, is a good/great passer out of the post, a very good free throw shooter (one miss in five games), and has a soft touch which means he should be able to hit a 12-15ft shot with regularity and push out to 18-20ft with additional practice.

Seriously....how you would consider giving up on a kid this talented for so little and so early on in his development is beyond me.

Yes, there are legitimate concerns about his mobility and post defense (needs to stay on the ground)....but he offers far more capability on the offensive end RIGHT NOW than Elson, and is roughly at the same level defensively. Imagine what he could look like with two more years of training/mentoring under the Spurs' coaching staff and players....

[AFBlue]

Butler is still a prospect. It makes no sense to dump on him at this point unless the Spurs are ready to run him out because they are afraid of the lux tax bogeyman.

Lux Tax is not assessed until Feb deadline, IIRC. So, the Spurs shouldn't be in a rush to deal him. I think the prudent thing to do is see how Butler does in training camp against some of the other bigs (namely Elson) and gauge then whether they should look to keep him and move Elson or vice versa. I'm hoping for option #1.

[AFBlue]

My take on White:

I think some of us are being unfairly harsh on White for his summer league performance.

He did look to score off of mid-range and long-range jumpers too often, when he was better served being aggressive and getting to the line. No, he was not a great finisher around the basket, but he at least put pressure on the defense when he drove.

I think this setting was all wrong for White. He was asked to be the breakout performer on offense and the ultimate stopper on defense. The truth is, he just ain't that good at either of them...but if he was, he'd be a high pick making more than $700K next year.

I look to his time with the Spurs last year as a better reference. He played under control and within himself because he knew he didn't have to be THE guy....all while staying aggressive and keeping the defense on its toes.

The one glaring problem isn't that he didn't look like a defensive stopper...but that he didn't look like much of a defender at all. He seemed routinely disinterested in applying pressure and/or coming over for help defense. He didn't capitalize on his speed/athleticism to disrupt the ball-handler or even stay in front of him. I'm not saying he was terrible, but he'll need to show more to the Spurs coaching staff in Salt Lake City....IMO, that's what they'll focus on with him.

I still think White has a chance to stay on this roster, mostly because his contract is so minimal, he's had time invested in the Spurs system (albeit not alot), and because it's not likely the Spurs will pursue a "bigger"...meaning, more expensive....free agent.

[Darkwaters]

his contract is so minimal, he's had time invested in the Spurs system (albeit not alot), and because it's not likely the Spurs will pursue a "bigger"...meaning, more expensive....free agent.

It would be hard to find a contract that is actually SMALLER than White's. The guy makes about as little money as an NBA player can. The only reason you move him is to free up a roster spot. But anybody that says its for salary reasons is simply ignorant.

[wildbill2u]

If Splitter is a PF then Scola must have been playing SF all this time.
I'm just speculating on where and how Splitter might play as a combo 4-5. The league and the Spurs are changing the traditional roles of players with more of them playing as combos (2-3, 3-4, 4-5) rather than the one-dimensional players of yesterday. Role players especially have to have the flexibility and skill sets to do more things than to be one-dimensional players.

This is true with the Spurs as well as we see 'small ball' occasionally. The question in my mind about Butler is that he one of the old style centers and may not fit into the Spurs system because of his deficiencies in mobility and defense.

He might work out well somewhere else.

[Marcus Bryant]

Lux Tax is not assessed until Feb deadline, IIRC. So, the Spurs shouldn't be in a rush to deal him. I think the prudent thing to do is see how Butler does in training camp against some of the other bigs (namely Elson) and gauge then whether they should look to keep him and move Elson or vice versa. I'm hoping for option #1.


Is it likely to go down?

[Mr. Body]

I'm just speculating on where and how Splitter might play as a combo 4-5.

That was a response more to AHF and others who keep claiming Splitter is a PF or Butler plays more of a C than he does, but it's not true: Splitter is more a center who can play PF if he has to.

[Marcus Bryant]

It would be hard to find a contract that is actually SMALLER than White's. The guy makes about as little money as an NBA player can. The only reason you move him is to free up a roster spot. But anybody that says its for salary reasons is simply ignorant.

Yeah, he's on the cheap. No reason to move him barring a trade. I don't see Williams as the better prospect, unless the Spurs feel they could perhaps convert Williams into a 1.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, he's on the cheap. No reason to move him barring a trade. I don't see Williams as the better prospect, unless the Spurs feel they could perhaps convert Williams into a 1.

Spot duty at the 1 was one of his appeals. I believe there was a Spurs quote on this.

[AFBlue]

My take on Williams:

It's tough to see how he should be on the Spurs roster after that five-game span, except for the fact that the Spurs just used a high-second round pick on him....so they'd look like fools if they ditched him that quick.

The Positives:

- He excels on defense....showed good intensity, great length to disrupt ball handlers and passing lanes, and good footwork to stay in front of his man.

- Contrary to some reports, he seems to have a good work ethic and a great willingness to learn. He does seem very confident, which might have been misconstrued as cockiness or a "me first" attitude. All indications are that those initial reports were overblown and that this kid has the drive to improve....which he'll NEED to do to stick with this team.

- When he was being aggressive offensively (though it rarely happened), he seemed to be able to get to the rim and more importantly, to finish strong. He'll need to show more ability in Salt Lake City...and Austin, if he makes the team....to take his man off the dribble. But once he gets past his man, he is very good at getting into the lane and finishing in traffic.

The Negatives:

- His shot is horrible. There's no other way to put it. I understand that this is a very small sample size and that he had that form last year when he shot for a very high percentage (almost 50%)...but it just looked "broken". If he makes the team, he'll need to work with Chip Engelland to fix the form and get more consistent.

- He seems to move in slow motion at times. While he was never touted as a highly athletic player, what he showed in the summer league raises a few eyebrows.

Having said that, hopefully he can display the ball-handling skills (which I didn't get an accurate read for) to create space in lieu of a "first step" and negate the concerns about his lack of athleticism...but right now it is a legitimate concern.

All in all, I'd say he makes the team for similar reasons to James White....team made investment (early second pick in lieu of $$ and time for White), he'll come cheap, and Spurs won't look to add more expensive option to fill out roster.

Call me crazy, but I think the positives with this kid outweigh the negatives. In a best-case scenario, I think he could be Josh Childress...a guy that alot of posters around here seem to like...and that ain't bad.

[AFBlue]

Yeah, he's on the cheap. No reason to move him barring a trade. I don't see Williams as the better prospect, unless the Spurs feel they could perhaps convert Williams into a 1.


The way it SHOULD be is that Williams plays the 1/2 role with focus on penetrating and scoring, while White plays the 2/3 role and focuses on defense.

The only problem is that White seems to want to score, when he just aint that good at it, and Williams seems content to do nothing on offense.

Hopefully they figure out their roles, but I think there's enough space on the roster for the both of them if they do.

[Mr. Body]

Call me crazy, but I think the positives with this kid outweigh the negatives. In a best-case scenario, I think he could be Josh Childress...a guy that alot of posters around here seem to like...and that ain't bad.

I think Marcus Williams will be fine and, down to him and White, I'll take MW as a year try out. That said, if he winds up anywhere close to Josh Childress, I'd be insanely happy.

[IcemanCometh]

Last I checked the Spurs had a fairly good record at roster moves. I think they know more about what players will fit the team than some guys on the internet watching highlight clips

[jéjé]

jackie must say as a spurs !!!!!!!!!!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I see Splitter actually getting some minutes outside or at the high post like a PF with TD or oberto at the low post. He has a better all-around game.

On the other hand, unless Butler could raise his defense to an acceptable level, he won't get many minutes on the Spurs to post home about. we've never relied on the center position to take up the offensive slack when TD goes out.

And that's the difference.

Who said anything about relying on the center position to take up the slack? I'm talking about our low post oriented offense falling apart and going into hibernation when Tim goes to the bench.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

How come most of the posters show so little respect for the Spurs DECIDERS who have given us 3 titles since 2003? Guess what? Ludden's columns are based on off the record conversations, not who he quotes. You need to read between the lines because most good jounalists know that is the way the system works. It sounds to me that Mahinmi is in and Butler is out. If it works out in reverse so be it. It is less then intelligent to deride the messenger.

We show so little fucking respect because:

1. Every year we win a title, the front office gets content and cocky, and then we get punked the following season

2. The last time we had a supporting cast this old around TD, we got smoked by LA in the playoffs

3. We've been around long enough to know Ludden is a mouthpiece for the Spurs, and have read enough articles from him in similar situations to know what's coming

4. We all know the reason Ian is in and Butler is on the way out is because they can get Ian on the cheap, even if he doesn't get off the bench all year long or contribute anything to the team

5. Some of us realize that Tim Duncan won't be great forever, and would like to win a few more titles while he still is

6. You can argue that the 'deciders' are still riding the gravy train of hitting late draft gold in Manu, and haven't done shit since in the draft

7. Some of us are smart enough to realize that our primary threat and the one team built to beat us (Dallas) was taken out by an upstart team that didn't know any better, we can't count on GS-Dallas every year to take care of that, and that we are sitting here two years later still needing to address the same weaknesses in this team's personnel.

8. Butler is 22 and talented, and we appear on the road to ship him out just so Holt doesn't have to pay a lux tax penalty.

[T Park]

6. You can argue that the 'deciders' are still riding the gravy train of hitting late draft gold in Manu, and haven't done shit since in the draft

Now, didn't I say this on draft night, and everyone starting ripping me to shreds?

Eh, carry on.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Wow what an incredibly depressing thread. LOL at myself for forgetting Jackie was younger than me. LOL at our front office.

[timvp]

Nice job on the Butler and White write ups, PHAT TONY. However, I disagree with you on points regarding Williams.


The Positives:

- When he was being aggressive offensively (though it rarely happened), he seemed to be able to get to the rim and more importantly, to finish strong. He'll need to show more ability in Salt Lake City...and Austin, if he makes the team....to take his man off the dribble. But once he gets past his man, he is very good at getting into the lane and finishing in traffic.

I disagree with that. The only time I saw him finish strong so far was when his man fell down and he had a clear path to the basket for a two handed jam. Outside of that, he's been even worse than White finishing at the basket.

Not only does he shy away from contact, he doesn't elevate high enough to really even get a shot at the rim. I remember one layup he had in traffic but it wasn't a strong move at all. He flipped it up with his left hand as he was moving away from the basket.


Call me crazy, but I think the positives with this kid outweigh the negatives. In a best-case scenario, I think he could be Josh Childress...a guy that alot of posters around here seem to like...and that ain't bad.

I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives of what we've seen so far. He attempts to play defense and he doesn't seem to have an attitude on offense. Those are the two positives I've seen.

His negatives are: his jump shot, his finishing ability, his speed, his quickness, his jumping ability, his explosiveness, his passing skills ... even his rebounding and ballhandling, which were supposed strengths, haven't really materialized into anything.

My hope with him is the Spurs can retool his jumper and get that going, which will then get him confidence enough to improve offensively. Defensively if he adds strength and he proves to be quick enough, he should be okay.

As far as a comparison, I don't see any resemblance to Josh Childress. Childress is a fantastic athlete who uses his athleticism to score. Williams doesn't have that type of athleticism at all.

The upside I see in him is more along the lines of Steve Smith with knees but without as good of a jumper. He moves at a Steve Smith like pace, which isn't horrible as long as he's hitting shots. If he could hit shots, he'd go from "slooooooooooooow" to "patient" offensively.

[justanotherspursfan]

2. The last time we had a supporting cast this old around TD, we got smoked by LA in the playoffs
:tu


4. We all know the reason Ian is in and Butler is on the way out is because they can get Ian on the cheap, even if he doesn't get off the bench all year long or contribute anything to the team
Does that mean you think Butler is going to be a real asset in winning a title this next year? I agree he has upside, but as raw as he looks in summer league, that seems like a stretch to me. If you're going to have one guy or the other as a developmental player who isn't going to play, it seems like they should go with whomever they believe in more, whichever player that is.

One nice thing about Ian is that he can get in a lot of playing time in Austin instead of sitting around in a suit. If Butler can't get PT, it's going to be hard for him to keep improving. That's certainly not a deciding factor, but it bears mentioning.


7. Some of us are smart enough to realize that our primary threat and the one team built to beat us (Dallas) was taken out by an upstart team that didn't know any better, we can't count on GS-Dallas every year to take care of that, and that we are sitting here two years later still needing to address the same weaknesses in this team's personnel.
Agreed. If there are moves we can make that improve the odds of getting past Dallas this year, we should make them. It's not clear to me that keeping Butler is such a move, but if you think he's a major short-term asset, I'd love to hear why.


8. Butler is 22 and talented, and we appear on the road to ship him out just so Holt doesn't have to pay a lux tax penalty.
If they think Ian is a better investment of their resources and they don't figure that either player is ready to get off the bench this year, then it seems like a plausible move. If all they're doing is penny penching and looking to carry an open slot, I agree with you.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Now, didn't I say this on draft night, and everyone starting ripping me to shreds?

Eh, carry on.

No, you were going into congenital heart failure over the front office trading the almost Mr. Irrelevant Giorgis Papawhatever his name was.

[picnroll]

Yes, there are legitimate concerns about his mobility and post defense (needs to stay on the ground....
Staying close to the ground is not a problem for Butler.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Does that mean you think Butler is going to be a real asset in winning a title this next year? I agree he has upside, but as raw as he looks in summer league, that seems like a stretch to me. If you're going to have one guy or the other as a developmental player who isn't going to play, it seems like they should go with whomever they believe in more, whichever player that is.


I think he'd get off the bench, and also do well in a complimentary role to Tim.

10, 6 and 1-2 blocks a game, not to mention clogging the middle, is about what I'd expect out of him and what he would give us.



One nice thing about Ian is that he can get in a lot of playing time in Austin instead of sitting around in a suit. If Butler can't get PT, it's going to be hard for him to keep improving. That's certainly not a deciding factor, but it bears mentioning.

First, I think Ian is going to be a bust. Who tears a muscle going up for a dunk like that? He's going to spend his life on the IR.

I don't think it's much of a reach to see Butler continuing to improve. First, he's already made a lot of progress since last year.

Second, come on - he'd be playing against Tim every day in practice. Hell, he already has been and you can see it in some of his offensive moves.



Agreed. If there are moves we can make that improve the odds of getting past Dallas this year, we should make them. It's not clear to me that keeping Butler is such a move, but if you think he's a major short-term asset, I'd love to hear why.


Think about Dallas and when they clowned on us with Diop and Dampier down low. Now think about them having to deal with Tim and Butler instead of Tim and Finley... or Barry.

I don't see how Ian would get us by them either, but people seem to think that's the way to go.



If they think Ian is a better investment of their resources and they don't figure that either player is ready to get off the bench this year, then it seems like a plausible move. If all they're doing is penny penching and looking to carry an open slot, I agree with you.

The issue here isn't Ian or Jackie, they could have both. The issue here is by all appearances they've made the decision that being under the lux tax > keeping a young developing talent in Butler, and that's just damn stupid.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

AHF we should write a long ass petition to the spurs front office not to deal butler.

[timvp]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73757

Too late

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Fuck Holt Cat :td

[jag]

Now, didn't I say this on draft night, and everyone starting ripping me to shreds?

Eh, carry on.

No, you were acting like a whiney bitch and people got tired of it.

[Marcus Bryant]

Last I checked the Spurs had a fairly good record at roster moves. I think they know more about what players will fit the team than some guys on the internet watching highlight clips

Guess so.