Bowen vs. Iceman

[rob5]

Tough call but if they played in the same era, I think the Iceman would still get his 30. Your thoughts?

[Mr. Body]

Maybe ask this when the board isn't having a collective fit.

[SenorSpur]

I believe Bowen would frustrate Ice somewhat, but over the course of a full game - it wouldn't matter. Remember Ice could score on anyone - ANYONE!

[samikeyp]

I think Ice would.

Then again, Bowen might too....Ice wasn't known for his D. :)

[sa_kid20]

Bowen could contain ice for a while but in the end Iceman would probably get his fair share of points

[BigBeezie]

Ice would score...but Bowen would too. Iceman couldn't play defense if his life depended on it.

[whottt]

Great question.


Ice is arguably the best high PCT scoring 2 guard in NBA history...Jordan is probably #1...but Ice actually finished with a higher PCT, and at the time of his retirment he was a freak ranking only behind Wilt in scoring titles.


Bruce is arguably one of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history...and for once, Bruce wouldn't be physically mismatched against the guy he is defending....which he almost always is and is still one of the greatest defenders ever...


That said...

Gervin wasn't really a perimeter scorer...and there's a reason there still hasn't been anyone quite like him...Bruce would play tougher defense than Ice is used too...but always remember...George could finger roll. And they didn't call him Ice because he was easy to piss off and frustrate. Those are the differences...Ice wins the battle.

[RC's Boss]

Ice himself said he'd drop (I think) 40 on bruce.

[mikeanthony21]

I think Ice would.

Then again, Bowen might too....Ice wasn't known for his D. :)

Didn't Ice lead the league's shooting guards in blocked shots one year?

[kris]

Ice 4-27 11 points max.

Nowadays that finger roll BS would get swatted into the 10th row.

[exstatic]

Ice gets his points, but Ice's team loses. That's what Bowen does. He makes you work for everything and focus on your matchup with him.

Kobe almost always gets his 30, but Bowen makes him put up 27-28 shots to do it, when Kobe gets it on 20 shots against other teams. Bowen turns his ball hog tendencies against the Lakers.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Nowadays that finger roll BS would get swatted into the 10th row.
yeh that

ppl tend to underestimate bowen on defense

he could give jordan, gervin misfits.....look at the type of players bowen has contained over the years

[Hemotivo]

Iceman vs. Bowen -> ICEMAN 37 pts.
Iceman vs. Bowen + Duncan -> Iceman 19 pts

[dropstep4421]

ICE would dropstep on Bruce all night and get a easy 30

[jdaveah]

Ice himself said he'd drop (I think) 40 on bruce.


That's true but Ice would also tell you he could go for 50 on Jesus.

[Clutch20]

Gervin><Bowen - game situation

Gervin>Bowen - one-on-one

[SenorSpur]

Remember too that the NBA game was a much more physical brand of basketball back in Ice's day. Defenders were allowed much more leeway than now. Ice ate them all alive.....and he would eat Bruce too.

[dav4463]

Ice would just shoot more. He would get his 30 ! Instead of getting 30 on 22 FGA, he might have to shoot 30 times.

[sa_kid20]

thats what Bowen does to Kobe

[TDMVPDPOY]

you guys tend to overrate these high scoring players

we all know bruce bowen doesnt show his final cards when he is force to :D:D:D ankle breaker

[J.T.]

Remember too that the NBA game was a much more physical brand of basketball back in Ice's day. Defenders were allowed much more leeway than now. Ice ate them all alive.....and he would eat Bruce too.

Oh snap can you imagine Bowen playing with that kind of leeway? Kobe held to 4 pts on 2-25 and 0 FTA.

[Obstructed_View]

Bowen's job is to make scorers work. Ice might score, but his team will have a hard time winning.

[stepmonkey]

Ice 4-27 11 points max.

Nowadays that finger roll BS would get swatted into the 10th row.

Yeah, just like Tony's teardrop is always swatted.... oh, wait, nevermind. The finger roll would still be just as deadly. I wonder how many who are picking Bowen are under 40 years of age or so and never saw Gervin play.

[aggie93]

Ice would get his. Where he would kill Bruce is with the mid range jumper that was just as effective as his finger role. Ice was perfectly happy to knock it down from 14 feet all night long just as much as he was driving for layup/finger rolls or hitting longer jumpers. Remember that the one flaw in the Spurs D is the mid range jumper because the design is to D up on the guy on the outside and force him to drive to the hole against Duncan. The guys that can make that move past Bowen on the outside and just pull up and hit that shot can kill the Spurs. The thing is in the 3 point era there are very few mid range shooters and the ones that do exist typically don't drive to the hole. In Gervin's day you had to be a strong mid range shooter and he absolutely was deadly if you gave him space from inside 20 feet. He would kill you just as much as if you let him drive. Also remember that the finger roll was so great because it was so crafty and hard to block. He knew exactly how to slip it by someone because the release was earlier than a traditional layup and so the blocks were almost always mis-timed. Ice's game was all about finesse, he was so hard to stop because he played so differently than anyone else and was able to hurt you in so many ways. That and he had unshakable confidence to go with an unshakable cool, you just couldn't frustrate or discourage him.

[bdictjames]

In the same era? That means allowed hand-checking right? Ice wouldnt score more than 25 in the game, but 15 points max.

[Brutalis]

Man I hate summer, regardless of the 4th title.

Bowen would hold his own on Iceman, but be edged in the end. Like the above it was more physical then, and Bowen isn't much bigger anyways.

[nkdlunch]

Tough call but if they played in the same era, I think the Iceman would still get his 30. Your thoughts?

depends, who would be officiating and what would the points in vegas be?

[sandman]

I wonder how many who are picking Bowen are under 40 years of age or so and never saw Gervin play.

Probably the same ones who didn't put GG on their all-time Spurs team.

Context 1980's: Bowen is able to be more physical and would "contain" Ice to fewer points, or same points on more attempts. Win for Bowen.

Context 2000's: Bowen is Ice's bitch. See: 4 scoring titles in a much more physical era.

[ShoogarBear]

Ice would get his. Where he would kill Bruce is with the mid range jumper that was just as effective as his finger role. Ice was perfectly happy to knock it down from 14 feet all night long just as much as he was driving for layup/finger rolls or hitting longer jumpers. Remember that the one flaw in the Spurs D is the mid range jumper because the design is to D up on the guy on the outside and force him to drive to the hole against Duncan. The guys that can make that move past Bowen on the outside and just pull up and hit that shot can kill the Spurs. The thing is in the 3 point era there are very few mid range shooters and the ones that do exist typically don't drive to the hole. In Gervin's day you had to be a strong mid range shooter and he absolutely was deadly if you gave him space from inside 20 feet. He would kill you just as much as if you let him drive. Also remember that the finger roll was so great because it was so crafty and hard to block. He knew exactly how to slip it by someone because the release was earlier than a traditional layup and so the blocks were almost always mis-timed. Ice's game was all about finesse, he was so hard to stop because he played so differently than anyone else and was able to hurt you in so many ways. That and he had unshakable confidence to go with an unshakable cool, you just couldn't frustrate or discourage him.I think you're dead on about the midrange game. Gervin had a deceptive first step and he would torture the Popovich Spurs with pullups in the no-man's land between 12 and 18 feet. Ice also took shots from odd angles and at spots on the floor where very few others would shoot. Bruce would eventually learn at least how to make him work, but the first 2-3 times they played he'd get lit up.

[ShoogarBear]

Oh, yeah. This reminds me of the time the Pacers were propping Dudley Bradley as the "Secretary of Defense" before a game against the Spurs in Indy.

Ice went for 55, and Bradley was never the same after that.

[sandman]

Ice also took shots from odd angles and at spots on the floor where very few others would shoot.

That is one of the little things that made him such an effective scorer: he learned to shoot from spots that were created by holes in the defensive schemes. And yeah, he used to shoot from some really odd angles.

Do you remember the 84-85 season when he went over the top of the backboard falling out of bounds in Denver? Not sure if he ever practiced that shot, but you knew that he knew he could hit it.

[wildchild]

Ice would score...but Bowen would too. Iceman couldn't play defense if his life depended on it.

If he plays magic and offensively, he can be smart defensively... :lol

WRONG!

[ShoogarBear]

Do you remember the 84-85 season when he went over the top of the backboard falling out of bounds in Denver? Not sure if he ever practiced that shot, but you knew that he knew he could hit it.Do you mean the night when he set the HemisFair Arena scoring record against the Nuggets? I was at that game, there was a shot where he got cut off on the baseline and threw up a semi hook that went over the backboard and into the net. I'm pretty sure that's an illegal shot, too.

[sandman]

Do you mean the night when he set the HemisFair Arena scoring record against the Nuggets? I was at that game, there was a shot where he got cut off on the baseline and threw up a semi hook that went over the backboard and into the net. I'm pretty sure that's an illegal shot, too.

I think it is now, but may not have been back then. Sort of like playing hard defense.

I could have sworn that game was in Denver, because I worked for the Spurs back in the 84-86 time frame and missed maybe two home games that entire time. I'll defer to your knowledge, as shortly after that I went off to college and relied on Chicago Tribune box scores and SI issues to keep up with them for several years pre-internet.

[ShoogarBear]

I think it is now, but may not have been back then. Sort of like playing hard defense.

I could have sworn that game was in Denver, because I worked for the Spurs back in the 84-86 time frame and missed maybe two home games that entire time. I'll defer to your knowledge, as shortly after that I went off to college and relied on Chicago Tribune box scores and SI issues to keep up with them for several years pre-internet.Well, I wouldn't defer too much, because for years I misremembered that game was against the Clippers (even though I was there).

The only thing I can vouch for:
-I was there the night he set the HemisFair record.
-I saw that one shot.

It wouldn't shock me if he had done that more than once.

[sandman]

Well, I wouldn't defer too much, because for years I misremembered that game was against the Clippers (even though I was there).

The only thing I can vouch for:
-I was there the night he set the HemisFair record.
-I saw that one shot.

It wouldn't shock me if he had done that more than once.

I trolled for game-by-game stats of his career, because I thought it was in Denver and was part of a 40-ish point effort. But again, we are talking one shot in one game over 20 years ago. I just remember Denver, so it was probably the game you referenced.

<muttering about getting close to 40 and feeling old and somewhat senile>

[ShoogarBear]

I trolled for game-by-game stats of his careerYou have a site where you can do this? :hungry:


<muttering about getting close to 40 and feeling old and somewhat senile>"Close to 40?" :flipoff

[sandman]

You have a site where you can do this? :hungry:

"Close to 40?" :flipoff

Trolled but did not find. Best I could find was season by season at basketball reference.

When we have posters on here who never saw Ice play, then yeah, 40 is feeling old. :cry

[samikeyp]

Oh, yeah. This reminds me of the time the Pacers were propping Dudley Bradley as the "Secretary of Defense" before a game against the Spurs in Indy.

Ice went for 55, and Bradley was never the same after that.

No chicken tonight!!!! :lol


"One particular half stuck in his mind. When the Spurs arrived in Indiana for one game, the Pacers had a big promotion going. Gervin remembered the details. "They said if they held the Iceman under 30, everybody in the building would get free chicken," he said. This was a leftover from the old ABA promotions, when the league would do anything to bring in fans. Now in the NBA, the Pacers were still in promotion overdrive. The lure of free chicken had the fans in a frenzy. Indiana did its part, assigning Dudley Bradley, known as the Secretary of Defense, to guard Gervin. This, of course, did not disturb the Iceman. "First half, I scored 25," he said, his eyes dancing at the memory. As he trotted to the dressing room for halftime, Gervin had a message for some courtside fans. "I was yelling at them, `No chicken tonight!' I got 55. It's still the arena record."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_19970608/ai_n10331283

[Jimcs50]

Ice 4-27 11 points max.

Nowadays that finger roll BS would get swatted into the 10th row.


:lol

The finger roll was almost unblockable, even moreso than TP's teardrop. There were great shotblockers when Ice played, some of the greatest shotblockers in the history of the NBA(Eaton, Tree Rollins, Jabbar, McHale, Elvin Hayes) and Ice got his shot over every one of them many many times. Do not speak if you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Ice would score 40 on Bruce, just as as any great scorer can.

[sa_kid20]

No chicken tonight!!!! :lol


:lmao

[Man In Black]

Ice played D. He had multiple seasons of at least 100 blocks and 100 steals.

[sandman]

Ice played D. He had multiple seasons of at least 100 blocks and 100 steals.

Almost every year from '73-'80

[SouthernFried]

ICE grew up playing basketball in the streets of Detroit. You don't think Ice knew something about physical ball play? :)

I had the honor of playing with ICE, and his son G, for a couple of years after he retired, in private league games. He was still amazing then. And the one thing that caught everyone by surprise with Ice was...his strength.

He looks skinny as a rail. But when you put a body on him, you noticed it was like pushing against solid rock. You didn't feel muscles...you felt fucking solid bone. He was scary strong. His confidence was in the stratosphere as well, he never got shook up. I guess that's why he was always smiling. He'd have a ball scoring on Bowen, and Bowen would love every minute of it. He always had a way of making you feel good when he scored on you. That's Ice. Bastard :)

Anyway, as much as I appreciate Bowen...Ice could score on anyone. It wasn't his ovewhelming quickness ;), it was his overwhelming skill. Trickiest sob ever to play the game. And he enjoyed it more than anyone I've ever seen play the game...truely.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

:lol

The finger roll was almost unblockable, even moreso than TP's teardrop. There were great shotblockers when Ice played, some of the greatest shotblockers in the history of the NBA(Eaton, Tree Rollins, Jabbar, McHale, Elvin Hayes) and Ice got his shot over every one of them many many times. Do not speak if you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Ice would score 40 on Bruce, just as as any great scorer can.


People obviously don't remember how dominant Ice was offensively. Kris's age is showing through in his post.

Every team put their best defender on Ice, and Ice still took them all night long. Michael Cooper was a pretty good defender in his own right and I remember Ice dominating him. Back then guys were allowed a lot more contact and Gervin still owned them all.

I love me some Bruce, but Ice would have no trouble scoring 40 on him.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Ice could kill you whatever way he wanted. He'd post you up. He'd take you off the dribble. He'd shoot over you. He'd pull up. He was completely and utterly unstoppable. He learned how to make every shot in the book, and then he wrote his own book. At least once or twice every night he'd make some ridiculous shot and you'd just marvel at how he did it. Bowen is the one of the best perimeter defenders in the history of the league, but don't blaspheme. Ice would kill him.

[ShoogarBear]

That was another good point about Ice's strength. People joke about the ball not being heavy, but it takes physical strength to put up 25 shots every night in the NBA with people hanging all over you.

Having said that, I will give some props to today's game so I don't sound like the typical "it was better back then" geezer. The overall defensive intensity of the game is much higher now. Back then, even the top defenders (Michael Cooper, Dennis Johnson) weren't going full throttle for as much of the game as Bowen does now. They were very good, but they picked their spots a lot more. If you look at game films from the 70s and 80s, the team defense wasn't nearly as sophisticated and the close outs weren't as strong or as often.

Maybe some of that had to do with the game pace (it's harder to sustain the D when everyone is putting up 100 shots a game). But I think the greater athleticism of today's game is most noticeable on the defensive side, even if you could get away with more then.

[ShoogarBear]

One last thing about Ice. I can't ever recall him bitching about not getting a call. Of course, very few players in the league bitched much longer than a few seconds about anything then.

[Da Spurs]

My favorite memory of Ice is when he drove the lane against the Lakers and Kareem came up to meet him and he finger-rolled from about 10 feet out right over Kareem's outstretched hand. Kareem's hand had to be about 12 feet up. An unbelievable shot. He was unstoppable.

The crazy thing is that no one has ever been able to duplicate his finger roll with any consistency.

[dav4463]

Gervin drew an incredible amount of baskets plus the foul. He had a knack for finding contact and bouncing off the defender while putting the ball in the basket. Usually off the glass from an impossible angle.