Marine Backs Asylum Seeker Claim Army Unit Killed Iraqi Civilians

[Nbadan]

TORONTO (AFP) - A former US Marine said his unit killed more than 30 innocent Iraqi civilians in just two days, in graphic testimony to a Canadian tribunal probing an asylum claim by a US army deserter.

Marine Sergeant Jimmy Massey appeared as a witness to bolster claims by fugitive paratrooper Jeremy Hinzman, that he walked out on the 82nd Airborne Division to avoid being ordered to commit war crimes in Iraq.

Hinzman, 26, claims he would face persecution if sent home to the United States, in a politically charged case which could set a precedent for at least two other US deserters seeking asylum in Canada.

Massey told Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB) that men under his command in the 3rd battalion, Seventh Marines, killed "30 plus" civilians within 48 hours while on checkpoint duty in Baghdad.

"I do know that we killed innocent civilians," Massey told the tribunal, relating the chaotic days after the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

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Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041207/pl_afp/canada_us_iraq_deserter&cid=1521&ncid=1478)

60 minutes claimed that there were 5,500 Armed Services personnel hiding out in Canada because of the Iraq war.

[Nbadan]

It's an offense punishable by death in wartime. It's been committed by 5500 soldiers since the war with Iraq began, 60 Minutes will report on Wednesday.

CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/06/60II/main659336.shtml)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Did they get the 5500 number from a Kinko's in West Texas?

[Useruser666]

Oh brother! This must mean Bush lost the election? No, this means the US is evil! Hoorah!!!

[exstatic]

I don't think it means either of those things User, just that it's not all as rosy as the administration paints it in Iraq.

[Useruser666]

I don't think it means either of those things User, just that it's not all as rosy as the administration paints it in Iraq.

I don't think the admin is painting a rosy future. I'm just not sure how much value I would give to the story of a deserter.

[exstatic]

The deserters would be the ones telling something like this if it were happening. Anyone who was still part and party to this certainly wouldn't be telling.

[travis2]

No, the deserters would be talking in such a way as to make themselves look noble and good.

They deserve no respect.

[Clandestino]

they can stay in canada... we'll send them the bill for their training

[Useruser666]

The deserters would be the ones telling something like this if it were happening. Anyone who was still part and party to this certainly wouldn't be telling.

And everyone in prison is innocent. And everyone arrested is abused by the cops. Is that why they deserted? They have to have some excuse not to serve. "They made me do it" is the most classic of reasons now a days.

[Nbadan]

Marine Sergeant Jimmy Massey appeared as a witness to bolster claims by fugitive paratrooper Jeremy Hinzman, that he walked out on the 82nd Airborne Division to avoid being ordered to commit war crimes in Iraq.

It's a former Marine Sergeant testifying about these allegations, not just the deserter. That my friends is what is called a unimpeachable witness unless someone can dig up some dirt on Massey. He was discharged honorably suffering from Post traumatic Stress disorder, or what I call, the silent killer.

[Useruser666]

The whole article below. Dan you act as if this soldier was being ordered to kill civilians. What the Sergeant testified to was that they had killed civilians at a check point when the civilians didn't stop after warnings were given to them. They shot them riding in some cars that were approaching a check point they were at. They were afraid they were more car bombers trying to run at the check point. Unfortunately they were just civilians. This is what happens in warfare. No one is denying that. This soldier feels like he will kill others if forced to serve and can't take that responsibilty. That is why he says he is in Canada. It is tragic, but hardly a war crime. Do you honestly think our troops are over there just shooting civilians for the fun of it?!

TORONTO (AFP) - A former US Marine said his unit killed more than 30 innocent Iraqi civilians in just two days, in graphic testimony to a Canadian tribunal probing an asylum claim by a US army deserter.

Marine Sergeant Jimmy Massey appeared as a witness to bolster claims by fugitive paratrooper Jeremy Hinzman that he walked out on the 82nd Airborne Division to avoid being ordered to commit war crimes in Iraq (news - web sites).

Hinzman, 26, claims he would face persecution if sent home to the United States, in a politically charged case which could set a precedent for at least two other US deserters seeking asylum in Canada.

Massey told Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB) that men under his command in the 3rd battalion, Seventh Marines, killed "30 plus" civilians within 48 hours while on checkpoint duty in Baghdad.

"I do know that we killed innocent civilians," Massey told the tribunal, relating the chaotic days after the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

Massey said that in some incidents, Iraqi civilians were killed by between 200 and 500 rounds pumped into four separate cars which each failed to respond to a single warning shot and respond to hand signals, at a Baghdad checkpoint.

At the time, US soldiers feared suicide bombers would try to ram checkpoints, he said.

Searches found no weapons in the vehicles or evidence that those killed were anything but innocent civilians, said Massey.

He also said marines killed four unarmed demonstrators, and more Iraqis the next day during another spell of checkpoint duty in the occupied Iraqi capital.

"I was never clear on who was the enemy and who was not," said Massey.

"When you don't know who the enemy is, what are you doing there?" asked the 12-year Marine, later honorably discharged from the service with severe depression and post traumatic stress disorder.

Hinzman earlier argued in the tribunal which started on Monday and was due to end Wednesday that he gradually realised after joining the army in 2001 that he could not bring himself to kill another person.

"I was faced with being deployed to Iraq to do what the infantry does, kill people, and I had no justification for doing so," said Hinzman.

Hinzman and his wife and two-year-old son arrived in Canada early this year, after deserting from his unit, an action which carries a maximum five-year term in jail.

The South Dakota-born soldier is claiming refugee status based on his contention that he was right to refuse to fight in a war which he says was illegal and violated human rights and the Geneva Conventions.

He also claims he would face persecution if returned home to face desertion charges.

Hinzman first requested conscientious objector status in 2002 before learning he was to be posted to Afghanistan (news - web sites), where he eventually made 18 combat parachute jumps.



The following year, the request was rejected, and late in 2003 he learned he was to be deployed to Iraq, prompting his flight to Canada.

Odds against him winning the case are slim, as no such verdict has ever been handed to a US soldier here or to a combatant in a non-conscription army.

The IRB was set up to consider the merits of refugee claims at arms length from the Canadian government.

Presiding member Brian Goodman signalled Tuesday he would ask for written submissions from Hinzman's counsel, a government lawyer and a refugee officer, thereby ruling out a judgement on the case on Wednesday.

Goodman will decide whether Hinzman would face persecution if sent back to the United States by dint of political or religious beliefs or his status as an objector to US military action.

The judgement will also question whether Hinzman will face "cruel and unusual" punishment, during what would likely be a long prison term.

[NeoConIV]

What the Sergeant testified to was that they had killed civilians at a check point when the civilians didn't stop after warnings were given to them. They shot them riding in some cars that were approaching a check point they were at. They were afraid they were more car bombers trying to run at the check point.
Exactly. In war, this would be the 'shit' in 'shit happens'. These circumstances justify the means. It's unfortunate, but I back that decision 100%.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Did anyone catch the Canadian deserters on CBS the other night? I'm surprised, CBS made them look like chumps.

[MannyIsGod]

I'd take this with one big grain of salt.

Obviously there are agenda's at work here. The deserter doesn't want to be sent home, therefore he's going to make it look as bad as possible.