Why the Spurs dealt Scola for virtually nothing [Archive]

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Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 01:54 PM

Why the Spurs dealt Scola for virtually nothing.

Many of you have asked and talked about the peculiarity of the Spurs basically handing the Rockets an impact power forward and potential star for cash, a second-round pick and a homesick player (Vassilis Spanoulis) who won't be in the NBA again any time soon.

Well, they did do that.

But the Spurs weren't exactly doing it out of the kindness of their collective hearts.

It looks as if this was a deal that got the Spurs virtually nothing. In truth, they got a lot and continued to show why the organization is among the more forward-thinking in the league.

Originally the Spurs had a deal in place to send the talented Argentine, Luis Scola, to Cleveland. And by the way, I must say had they done that the Cavs could well have taken a huge step toward becoming an Eastern Conference dynasty, considering all their other parts.

When that deal fell through, the Spurs turned to their rivals to the west and helped make the Rockets a lot better. Trust me on that. I've seen Scola up close in the Olympics and love his game. He's better than the Spurs' Fabricio Oberto, but that type of player.

But the Spurs are not four-time title winners because they're dumb. In fact, it could be argued that eventually the Spurs will end up with more significant pieces as a result of this deal.

Ultimately, both teams will be happy. Here's why:

The deal began taking shape shortly after the Spurs decided to take Brazilian center (and Scola's current Tau Ceramica teammate) Tiago Splitter. This kid is a phenomenal prospect as well.

Splitter is a physical player who can score inside and from mid-range, measured 6-11 3/4 at the NBA pre-draft camp two years ago, has a 7-4 reach and is just 22, five years younger than Scola.

Splitter won't be able to buy out his contract until after the 2007-2008 season, which is what the Spurs were looking at when they dealt Scola.

The Spurs could have cleared some money to bring over Scola next season, but as they saw it Splitter was younger, better, a better defender and would cost about the same to sign as Scola.

By including Jackie Butler in the deal and putting in cash considerations, the Spurs will not have to pay Butler's $2.9 million salary next season, nor Spanoulis' $1.9 million. That allows the Spurs to clear a roster spot and be able to better afford signing athletic French big man Ian Mahinmi, their 2005 draft pick, and also free agent swingman and athletic Bruce Bowen-type defender Ime Udoka.

The Spurs' "generosity" helped the Rockets, no doubt. This will be a huge pickup.

But ultimately, Spurs fans are going to love this deal as much or more.

It's going to allow them to bring in the next Bruce Bowen, a project in Mahinmi whose athleticism has been compared to David Robinson's and a younger, taller, better Scola.

Posted by John P. Lopez at July 15, 2007 10:01

djohn14

07-15-2007, 01:58 PM

Who is John P. Lopez?

Kori Ellis

07-15-2007, 01:59 PM

http://blogs.chron.com/lopezblog/

Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 02:00 PM

Who is John P. Lopez?

How can you not know who he is????

:rolleyes

Kori Ellis

07-15-2007, 02:01 PM

SpursIndonesia

07-15-2007, 02:02 PM

Sugar coating at its best form. LOL.

Admidave50

07-15-2007, 02:03 PM

Still waiting for the love coming from this trade..

Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 02:05 PM

Sugar coating at its best form. LOL.

Why would a well known and respectd Houston Chronicle columnist sugar coat a deal that seems to favor his team???

:rolleyes

timvp

07-15-2007, 02:05 PM

Dumb article. He has no clue.

He's better than the Spurs' Fabricio Oberto, but that type of player.

The only thing Scola and Oberto share in common is their homeland.

The Spurs could have cleared some money to bring over Scola next season, but as they saw it Splitter was younger, better, a better defender and would cost about the same to sign as Scola.

Nice research.

baseline bum

07-15-2007, 02:05 PM

What do you mean "virtually" ?

They traded them for absolutely nothing... for a guy they know will never play another NBA game again.

ShoogarBear

07-15-2007, 02:06 PM

Calling Splitter a "phenomenal prospect" is clearly going overboard.

Lopez is just showing admirable restraint by not journalistically busting his gut.

Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 02:06 PM

Dumb article. He has no clue.

The only thing Scola and Oberto share in common is their homeland.

He said that Scola was better than Oberto.

ShoogarBear

07-15-2007, 02:08 PM

Dumb article. He has no clue.
No, he's smart. The more he softpedals how bad this was, the more The Mole can infiltrate the Spurs FO and continue his dirty work.

whottt

07-15-2007, 02:08 PM

If Scola and Butler could play D and rebound as well as Oberto and Bonner...they'd be here. And Bonner and Oberto wouldn't.

Spurs had 5 years to look at Scola....I don't think they misjudged him. He's a scoring big who is not score as well in the NBA. His attitude didn't help either...people can not pay attention to this...but it was a factor. Spurs asked this dude to improve his rebounding...and not only did he not do it...he was indignant about it and said he was happy playing in Europe.

Butler had zero trade value on his own merit...other than a scrub exchange...and the Spurs don't want another scrub, they want the slot....for a project whose talents do lie on the defensive/rebounding/shotblocking side of the ball, unlike Scola. They also don't want to be paying doubletime million dollar contracts for players that are going to ride the IR all year. Who also don't play D.

The Spurs are sick of bigmen that can't rebound...and they never going to put a defensive non entity next to Duncan...because it isn't fair to Duncan, and it isn't good for the Spurs title chances.

So everybody is basically coming down on them for not spending on a player they didn't need...or for not letting him go for nothing.

It's not Rocket Science to figure this stuff out...

Spurs did not like Scola's game and they traded him for as much as they could get...

If they could have traded Butler and Scola separately for second round picks and capspace, they would have done so....were any of the teams interested in Butler under the cap? No they weren't...

Were the Spurs ever offered anything more than a second rounder for Scola as far as anyone knows? No they weren't.

And on top of that...I'd much rather them make Houston better than the team with future of the NBA playing on it...who we just happened to meet in the finals.

Spurs fans are pissed because we didn't get more....

What more was there to get?

Spurs fans are pissed for the Spurs not spending stupidly on players that were not going to crack the rotation in a major way...

Why? So we could be as stupid as the freaking Knicks?

Pay for what we don't need just to prove we aren't small market?

That's stupid.

It wasn't there...and Scola would have ridden the bench on the Spurs because he is a defensive and rebounding liabitlity...and Pop isn't going play guyd that don't play D...that's why the Spurs have great D.

Everyone is sickeningly over-rating Scola as well...I read one artice by some douche bag that said Scola is a 20 and 10 guy...

Tek_XX

07-15-2007, 02:08 PM

All we know is that the Spurs wanted to rid themselves of Scola and the other dude like right now. "Doesn't matter to who, just get rid of them" said Peter Holt.

Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 02:10 PM

I is obvious tat the Spurs know what they are doing and you people have no clue.

I can not count how many times you peopl have questioned the organization over moves only to find out that they were right all along.
Leave it to the professionals, and wait a while before jumping off any buildings.

ShoogarBear

07-15-2007, 02:11 PM

I can not count how many times you peopl have questioned the organization over moves only to find out that they were right all along.
Leave it to the professionals, and wait a while before jumping off any buildings.:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 02:12 PM

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Glad I humored you.

ShoogarBear

07-15-2007, 02:13 PM

Well, coming from the guy who pulled the biggest championship-run bailout this side of T Park . . .

Mr. Body

07-15-2007, 02:13 PM

Can't lipstick this pig. It's a bad trade in any way basketball-related. It was done to clear money from a team averse to spending any even in championship territory. They went for a deal most advantageous for them financially at the expense of greatly assisting a rival, which will be far better for years to come. Houston spent money to make themselves significantly better at a spot of great need; San Antonio spent all their good assets to shed the salary of a guy they were overjoyed to sign last summer.

This is one ugly pig.

timvp

07-15-2007, 02:13 PM

Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 02:15 PM

Well, coming from the guy who pulled the biggest championship-run bailout this side of T Park . . .

Are you THAT cluless?

:rolleyes

Tek_XX

07-15-2007, 02:16 PM

Why can't fans question this organization just because they made good decisions with Parker and Ginobili? They are more than capable of fucking up and this trade is very questionable.

Mr. Body

07-15-2007, 02:16 PM

timvp makes a great take on how even to save money this wasn't a creative or smart move, and even clearing Butler's salary in other ways could have netted the Spurs more than a single 2nd round pick, since Scola would have netted that by himself. The Spurs were unprepared, lazy, and for some reason failed to recognize that Houston is an up-and-coming rival suddenly chock full of offensive talent.

This was just bad, bad, bad.

ShoogarBear

07-15-2007, 02:16 PM

Dennis Lindsey settles in to his new digs . . .

http://www.ksr.ku.edu/libres/Mammals_of_Kansas/images/mole.JPG

Tek_XX

07-15-2007, 02:18 PM

Ha "the mole"

I wouldn't have thought about that until this trade was made. I love conspiracy theories.

whottt

07-15-2007, 02:24 PM

Even after being able to digest it for a couple days, it still feels and looks like a horrible trade. You don't give a divisional rival a free gift. There's no excuse for that.

If the Spurs really, really needed to save money, they should have done something like Barry and a first rounder to the Sonics/Bobcats/Warriors for a second rounder. Then you ship Scola to the highest bidder (not the Lakers, Dallas, Phoenix or Houston). Even if that's a second round pick, you'd basically end up trading two second round picks and $8M in savings for a fist round pick.

You don't salary dump a player making 40% of what Barry makes to a divisional rival and include Scola as part of the package. I don't think Scola would have been a great fit on the Spurs, but he's going to be a good scorer. In Europe, he scored more per minute than Ginobili did.

If Adelman almost won a championship with Chris Webber, he can do something with TMac and Yao, with Scola scoring when those two guys start feeling the pressure.

Two years from now, this is going to look like a horrendous trade.

Don't you think if $$$$ was the primary motivation, Barry and Beno would have been the first guys they moved? Who makes more money? Barry does...he makes as almost as much as Butler/Scola and Bonner/Oberto combined.

Don't you think if $$$ was the primary motivation, Butler would be here instead of Bonner?

Don't you think if Scola was better than Oberto, he'd be here and Oberto wouldn't?

Hell I think Scola actually signed for less than Oberto.

Lots of bad takes here built around one underlying premise....people wanted more than the Spurs could get.

Did you really want Scola in Chicago or Cleveland instead of Houston?

I don't...fuck sending him to the Bulls...

You rather Bulter sits here and does shit for a season after Pop doghouses him, instead of brining Ian over?

You rather have Butler riding the IR in our roster slot instead of Ime Udoka?

You are Marcus Bryant are pulling off some of the worst takes about the Spurs FO the last two seasons...I have ever seen you guys have.

Hey...Elson signing? Scorboard. We just won an NBA title...ditto Oberto.

You guys keep calling them out as penny pinchers...except they keep being right, and they are winning titles.

Last offseason disaster was an NBA title...

Scoreboard.

Bad takes.

timvp

07-15-2007, 02:27 PM

If the Spurs go ahead and sign Udoka (which I hope they do), that'll just make this trade look even dumber. What they would have done is made a desperation salary dump ... and then bring in even MORE salary.

So then when it's all said and done, you couldn't even really call it a salary dump :lmao :shootme

Udoka was my number one option of reasonable free agents this summer, but even I would rather have waited it out. This time next year Butler's contract is done, Scola's contract with Tau is done and the Spurs would have the full MLE to sign a Bowen replacement in a much deeper free agent market.

Udoka is good but if the Spurs really made this trade to make room for him, that's even dumber than all the Jason Kidd shenanigans. At least Kidd is a Hall of Famer. Udoka is Devin Brown without as good of an offensive game with the ability to show up for practice on time.

If you wait until next summer, there is no way that you lose anything. Scola was bluffing about signing a long-term contract in Europe. He waited five years ... waiting one more year to become a free agent was nothing. You give Butler more playing time and another year to get in shape and he'd no doubt raise his trade value.

Salary dumping Barry or staying status quo while signing someone like Jumaine Jones were both hugely more logical moves.

Who the hell would ever salary dump a guy making half the MLE for a second round pick, while using arguably the best European prospect as bait? I'm trying to rationalize what the Spurs did but it makes no sense.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 02:28 PM

ploto

07-15-2007, 02:31 PM

I don't trust a writer who does not even know not to split his infinitives.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 02:34 PM

ShoogarBear

07-15-2007, 02:37 PM

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 02:38 PM

We can search for the hidden meanings within this trade, talk of conspiracy and moles, but at the end of the day, when Ian Mahinmi and Tiago Splitter are brought in each will cost one-fourth of what Jackie Butler and Luis Scola each will cost this next season, and that is why Butler and Scola are gone.

whottt

07-15-2007, 02:40 PM

I think the Spurs are going to make at least a token effort to bring Vaginis over and if they can...

Barry(assuming Udoka signs) and Beno are gone.

Barry and Beno are easily movable at any point this season...you guys want to get desperate and throw them away...not only when their value isn't as high as it will be....

But also before you even have a clue if we have suitable replacements waiting in the wings.

Just say for a second Lindsey said...why not let me try to sign Vaginis to replace Beno...if we can we can go ahead and move him for certain...perhaps Barry too, and if we can't, we save money and create a slot for Ian.

Personally I rather Beno than Vaginis...dude is way more of a pussy than Beno is...but he's also more talented from what I have read...everyone automatically assumes the Spurs weren't even going to consider signing him...I disagree, the guys primary problems were with Van Gundy..regardless of what he is saying now...and Lindsay just might know something no one else does...and if now...fine, buy him out and we still got a second round pick and a roster spot.

If the Spurs were just trying to get under the tax Barry and Beno would already be long gone....they are great shooting guards with extensive playoff experience that come out of a great program and are off the books after this season....

And everyone wants to dump them for just anything...without realizing that leaves our guard rotation as Vaughn, Finley and James fucking White.

Spurs aren't going to do that until they at least get another PG and probably until they get a good look at Finley in training camp...not to mention Williams and White.

Just say they get Vaginis and Udoka...

Poof Barry and Beno are gone......

TO me it reads like the Spurs are holding off on moving them..and there is a reason they are holding off.

Kori Ellis

07-15-2007, 02:42 PM

Vaginis, as you so sweetly refer to him, is not an actual point guard. He's a 6'3 shooting guard. So even if the brought him over, they'd still need a point guard if they got rid of Beno.

Russ

07-15-2007, 02:42 PM

Dennis Lindsey settles in to his new digs . . .

http://www.ksr.ku.edu/libres/Mammals_of_Kansas/images/mole.JPG
The only (small) contribution Lindsey may have had to this deal was to tout the Greek kid.

I agree that trading Scola and Butler to a divison rival is somewhat troubling. But, looking at the filp side, it's actually reassuring -- if there were any doubt about this trade, the Spurs woud never have made it with the hated Rockets. In other words, the Spurs may believe that Scola and Butler will fit no better with the Rockets and Yao than with the Spurs and Duncan. They may actually be ahead of the curve on this.

The problem with our analysis of these moves is that we sometimes employ the "fantasy league" analysis. Scola = X points. Butler = X points and X rebounds.

The Spurs know that 3 focal points are plenty and that anyone else on the team must understand that. All indications are that Scola might not understand that and that Butler might not understand much of anything.

Over the long haul Splitter and Mahinmi fit the Spurs current image of bigs better than Scola and Butler -- even if they may not put up the "numbers" of the other two.

Most teams want to seen as brilliant. The Spurs are content to win titles and let the big city boys look at them in amazement -- wondering how they could win with the mundane pieces that they assemble.

timvp

07-15-2007, 02:42 PM

Don't you think if $$$$ was the primary motivation, Barry and Beno would have been the first guys they moved? Who makes more money? Barry does...he makes as almost as much as Butler/Scola and Bonner/Oberto combined.

Don't you think if $$$ was the primary motivation, Butler would be here instead of Bonner? You are the only person on earth who doesn't realize that money was the primary motivation. In whottt's imaginary world, the Spurs traded Scola to the Rockets because they know he's so bad that they wanted Duncan to match up with him four times a year.

NASA wants it space ship back.

Don't you think if Scola was better than Oberto, he'd be here and Oberto wouldn't? Don't you think if Raja Bell were better than Derrick Dial, he'd be here?

Don't you think if the Spurs picked at 33 that they wouldn't have drafted the worst player in the entire draft?

Hell I think Scola actually signed for less than Oberto.

Lots of bad takes here

Classic.

built around one underlying premise....people wanted more than the Spurs could get.

No. It's built around the premise that you don't give a divisional rival something for nothing. Do the same trade with the Bobcats and it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. It'd still be a stupid trade but not horrendous.

It was a desperation move that they could have held out on for another year to see if their assets became more valuable. The were no harm in waiting.

After preaching patients all summer, the Spurs get scared and do a panic move. Unacceptable.

Did you really want Scola in Chicago or Cleveland instead of Houston?

I don't...fuck sending him to the Bulls...

All of a sudden you are scared of Scola? Remember your other takes?

At least try to keep your outlandish takes consistent.

Thanks.

You rather Bulter sits here and does shit for a season after Pop doghouses him, instead of brining Ian over?

The Spurs could have had both. And if Mahinmi was really David Robinson, Jr ... why did the Spurs make their first priority to sign a 20-year-old 6-foot-11 power forward away from Detroit?

Oops.

You rather have Butler riding the IR in our roster slot instead of Ime Udoka?

Could have had both. Salary dump Barry and there you go.

Or if it really comes down to Udoka and giving the Rockets a free gift, just sign someone like Jumaine Jones.

You are Marcus Bryant are pulling off some of the worst takes about the Spurs FO the last two seasons...I have ever seen you guys have.

Hey...Elson signing? Scorboard.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Scoreboard? You mean the guy who got benched during the playoffs and averaged two and two during the postseason?

Scoreboard ... WTF :rollin

We just won an NBA title...ditto Oberto.

I wanted Oberto on the Spurs back before you hopped onto the Spurs bandwagon. And you gave up on Oberto before the playoffs even started.

Fess up.

You guys keep calling them out as penny pinchers...except they keep being right, and they are winning titles.

Last offseason disaster was an NBA title...

What did the Spurs do last year that helped them win the championship? Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Bowen, Oberto, Horry and Finley were already on board. Nothing the Spurs did last summer had any impact in the playoffs.

Scoreboard.

Cavs in 5?

How can you claim scoreboard after a take like that. Cavs in 5. That's the message board equivalent of signing Beno to a max deal.

Congrats.

Bad takes.

Agreed. Horrible and horribly inconsistent takes on your part.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 02:42 PM

Why the fuck are they going to bring Spannnisssoulos over? The $2 mil they received for his contract was a key part of this trade. If he wants to play for anyone else he has to be let out of that contract. No way are the Spurs going to give that up.

Kori Ellis

07-15-2007, 02:44 PM

The only (small) contribution Lindsey may have had to this deal was to tout the Greek kid.

Huh?

He touted the Greek kid who already said he isn't coming to the NBA? The Spurs didn't make this deal because they thought Spanoulis was going to be a contributor.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 02:47 PM

You know, I bet Lindsey had very little to do with this trade.

timvp

07-15-2007, 02:48 PM

VAGINIS IS STAYING IN GREECE. WHAT PART OF THIS DOES WHOTTT NOT UNDERSTAND?

Question.

whottt

07-15-2007, 02:48 PM

You know what, whotttt? I'd rather the Spurs sat on Scola and Butler than gift them both to the Rockets. I'd rather see Scola sign another 10 year deal with Tau than be dumped for a 2nd round pick to someone else in the division.

The Spurs got greedy with this trade.

So you wanted to stand pat?

I know that. I disagree.

I want a SF type....a good one that can help us against the Mavs...and the Rockets.

The slot is important here too...the Spurs wanted Jackie Butler gone...

This guys is 5 fucking years away from being any kind of serious contributor...he's got some offensive game, but he's also got a lot of liabilities...he is a huge fucking project and he doesn't have the skils the Spurs covet at this time.

Butler is not going to do jack shit this season except be a liability...he was not the commodity you guys think he is....

The Spurs would have traded him for nothing just to get him off the roster...becausr they got titles to win...herre and now, not when Duncan is retired.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 02:49 PM

When analyzing Spurs' personnel moves, follow the cost. Rose. Nesterovic. Butler. About the only time I recall them taking back more than they sent out was the Turkoglu/Mercer deal.

Kori Ellis

07-15-2007, 02:50 PM

So you wanted to stand pat?

I know that. I disagree.

I want a SF type....a good one that can help us against the Mavs...and the Rockets.

So did this deal make them closer to getting that SF type?

Because Udoka doesn't seem like that type at 6'5.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 02:50 PM

So you wanted to stand pat?

I know that. I disagree.

I want a SF type....a good one that can help us against the Mavs...and the Rockets.

The slot is important here too...the Spurs wanted Jackie Butler gone...

This guys is 5 fucking years away from being any kind of serious contributor...he's got some offensive game, but he's also got a lot of liabilities...he is a huge fucking project and he doesn't have the skils the Spurs covet at this time.

Butler is not going to do jack shit this season except be a liability...he was not the commodity you guys think he is....

The Spurs would have traded him for nothing just to get him off the roster...becausr they got titles to win...herre and now, not when Duncan is retired.

ROFL. Only in whottt's world would giving up two guys who can play next year for a guy who's too much of a pussy to play in the states and a 2nd round pick in '09 be counted as progress.

timvp

07-15-2007, 02:56 PM

But, looking at the filp side, it's actually reassuring -- if there were any doubt about this trade, the Spurs woud never have made it with the hated Rockets.

The Spurs made the trade with the Rockets because they got desperate. They had other deals out there that fell apart. The only one still on the table was the Rockets one. And with Scola's deadline to buyout his contract being today, the Spurs waited until the last possible second to do the trade.

It was either make the trade when they did or wait until next year. The Rockets were barely able to get everything done in time to buyout the contract. In fact, I'm sure that the Rockets gave the Spurs some sort of deadline to do the deal. The time came and the Spurs panicked.

Even if someone is 100% for the trade, there's no question that the Spurs had their backs against the wall as far as using Scola's rights. Some think that Scola would have actually extended his contract, thus making Scola's rights worthless.

So the Spurs decided to take the safe yet hurried route of giving away Scola to the Rockets so that they get something in return. Same thing happened with Giricek. Giricek said he was going to sign an extension so the Spurs traded him for a second round pick that eventually turned into Mengke Bateer.

This'll likely look just as dumb in the long run, except on a bigger scale.

Jimcs50

07-15-2007, 02:58 PM

ROFL. Only in whottt's world would giving up two guys who can play next year for a guy who's too much of a pussy to play in the states and a 2nd round pick in '09 be counted as progress.

As I said, let the people who know what they are doing have some repect, and give them time to show you why they make money doing this sort of thing, ok?

When you become a GM, then get back to me.

timvp

07-15-2007, 02:59 PM

Butler wouldn't help the Spurs this year so they traded him to make room for Mahinmi, who will spend all year in Austin.

Good take :tu

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:01 PM

The only inconsistency here is on the part of you...

You guys assume teams were lining up to take Butler and Scola off our hands...

Scola wasn't drafted until the 50 something pick...he's underperformed in the clutch in Europe his teams have failed...and on top of that teams knew the Spurs weren't too high on him...or else they'd have signed him and not Oberto and Bonner.

The Spurs did not have the leverage you guys think they did...

You don't if the Bobcats were offering just a second rounder for the both of them they would have done that deal?

And they went after Amir because guess what...he might better than Mahinmi...he's got more NBA experience...he's further along...

The logic is horrible...that's like saying the Spurs shouldn't draft Greg Oden becuase they have Tim Duncan..and if they do draft Oden...they must think Duncan sucks.

Bad logic.

I want you to tell me the better deals the Spurs turned down...period.

And yes...Chicago scares me more with Scola than Houston...saying I should be as scared of Scola on the Rockets is like me saying you should be as scared of him on the
Bobcats...Chicago is better than Houston.

Bottom line is that the Spurs aren't as scared of the Rockets as you guys are...I concur.

I'd much rather develop Mahinmi and get a second round pick for Scola than be scurred of the Rockets.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:02 PM

So MB and Timvp...how many titles are the Rockets going to win?

Say it here and now...

Because that's the only way this wasn't the best deal for the Spurs.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:07 PM

ROFL. Only in whottt's world would giving up two guys who can play next year for a guy who's too much of a pussy to play in the states and a 2nd round pick in '09 be counted as progress.

Butler is not going to do shit...

Butler was a liability...his contract was a liability, his slot was a liability.

He did not have what the Spurs want and need and will want and need for the rest of the Tim Duncan era..

Someday they might build around Forrest Gump with No D...but not the the Duncan era...you douche.

Stop thinking the mofo is a HOF'er...

Figure it the fuck out.

Isiah has owned the Spurs on every trade or release he has made...you think he's wrong on Butler?

It was all about Scola...and what was the max they could get for him...moving Jackie and a second rounder was it.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:08 PM

Butler wouldn't help the Spurs this year so they traded him to make room for Mahinmi, who will spend all year in Austin.

Good take :tu

AT least Mahinimi is elibigle for the D-League...

What's Butler's excuse for being a lump of shit?

Figure it out.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:08 PM

ArgSpursFan

07-15-2007, 03:11 PM

So MB and Timvp...how many titles are the Rockets going to win?

Say it here and now...

Because that's the only way this wasn't the best deal for the Spurs.

Scola aint gonna make the rockets win a championship.But can make them considerably better tham what they were last year.That´s for sure.
I say if the Rockets stay healthy,they can pass the playoffs 1 st.round,but facing the Suns,Spurs or mavs,they have no chance.Not next season.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:11 PM

So did this deal make them closer to getting that SF type?

Because Udoka doesn't seem like that type at 6'5.

He's more of that type than Jackie Butler and Luis Scola...

You have better? That they are blowing off? Who? Where?

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:12 PM

Spurs might as well offer Barry up to the Suns or Mavs.

itzsoweezee

07-15-2007, 03:13 PM

you could've just said, they gave away scola in favor of mahinmi and splitter. two players who are no where near as good as scola.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:16 PM

They made this deal because they saw $7 mil in benefit the first season and then $5 mil or so a season after that with Mahinmi and Splitter instead of Scola and Butler in the rotation. For that they wouldn't care if they had to deal Scola and Butler to the Suns or Mavs.

Figure it out Spurs fans.

What's wrong the financial benfit...why waste money on guys you aren't going to use?

Why waste Scola, on nothing?

There's nothing macho about that...it's stupid, it destroys your future.

Mahinimi and Splitter on paper have the talents they want, moreso than Scola and Butler.

And you assume they would have traded them to the Mavs...that remains to be seen.

The Spurs aren't near as stupid as you think they are...and there is nothing wrong with being smart and financially responsible...

Sincerely, the 2007 NBA Champions.

objective

07-15-2007, 03:16 PM

Originally the Spurs had a deal in place to send the talented Argentine, Luis Scola, to Cleveland. And by the way, I must say had they done that the Cavs could well have taken a huge step toward becoming an Eastern Conference dynasty, considering all their other parts.

When that deal fell through, the Spurs turned to their rivals to the west and helped make the Rockets a lot better.

wait . . .

So Cleveland, who would have been a marginal playoff team in the west and proved it by getting smoked in 4 games, and already had semi-competant players at PF in Gooden with spot minutes by Varajao and Marshall, if the Cavs got Scola they'd be a dynasty . . .

But this guy doesn't think that Scola would have a bigger impact on an arguably better team with worst talent at the PF in an unsigned Chuck Hayes?

If anything, Scola would have a bigger impact on the Rockets than the Cavs.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:18 PM

There is no way the Spurs would have traded Scola to the Suns...under any circumstances...

Not that the Suns were interested in taking on payroll this season anyway...tool.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:19 PM

Shit...Bowen can't score as good as Scola either...

We should have dumped him too.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:22 PM

Scola aint gonna make the rockets win a championship.But can make them considerably better tham what they were last year.That´s for sure.
I say if the Rockets stay healthy,they can pass the playoffs 1 st.round,but facing the Suns,Spurs or mavs,they have no chance.Not next season.

Scola is an offensive player that is going to have to pry the ball out of TMac's dead hands...he's also coming into a league with a whole different level of defensive ability...not to mention a marathon schedule....and he's going to give up as much as he scores...if not more.

drmvp

07-15-2007, 03:23 PM

Same thing happened with Giricek. Giricek said he was going to sign an extension so the Spurs traded him for a second round pick that eventually turned into Mengke Bateer.

Had no idea that was the deal with Giricek. Damn!

I nearly had a nervous breakdown when I mentally exchanged the names Giricek and Ginobili.

In that same contract situation, would these Spurs have traded Manu for Mengke Bateer?

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:26 PM

wait . . .

So Cleveland, who would have been a marginal playoff team in the west and proved it by getting smoked in 4 games, and already had semi-competant players at PF in Gooden with spot minutes by Varajao and Marshall, if the Cavs got Scola they'd be a dynasty . . .

But this guy doesn't think that Scola would have a bigger impact on an arguably better team with worst talent at the PF in an unsigned Chuck Hayes?

If anything, Scola would have a bigger impact on the Rockets than the Cavs.

Stupidest logic ever...

So the Lakers shouild trade Kobe to the Mavs...he'll help them the least.

Stupid.

spurscenter

07-15-2007, 03:26 PM

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73798

Mr.Bottomtooth

07-15-2007, 03:26 PM

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:27 PM

What's wrong the financial benfit...why waste money on guys you aren't going to use?

Why waste Scola, on nothing?

There's nothing macho about that...it's stupid, it destroys your future.

Mahinimi and Splitter on paper have the talents they want, moreso than Scola and Butler.

And you assume they would have traded them to the Mavs...that remains to be seen.

How so? As long as it satisfies the objective to dump them and move on who cares where they end up?

The Spurs aren't near as stupid as you think they are...and there is nothing wrong with being smart and financially responsible...

Sincerely, the 2007 NBA Champions.

There's nothing wrong with a couple suspensions and the greatest playoff upset in NBA history to help you win a title...

Sincerely, the 2007 NBA Champions.

It seems like the Spurs and Spurs fans are overestimating what happened last season. Sure, every title team has a few breaks, but that doesn't mean you can start helping out charity cases like the Rockets.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:27 PM

And that Giricek trade killed us....Jerry West sure did assrape the Spurs on that one :rolleyes

Better we sat him and not have enough money for Manu.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:30 PM

Scola is an offensive player that is going to have to pry the ball out of TMac's dead hands...he's also coming into a league with a whole different level of defensive ability...not to mention a marathon schedule....and he's going to give up as much as he scores...if not more.

Scola can shoulder some of Yao's scoring burden and let Yao focus on the offensive glass as well as playing D. Plus you should know as a student of Rick Adelman that he places an emphasis on sharing the rock.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:31 PM

How in the hell can anyone make the claim we should have traded him to the Bulls or Cavs over the Rockets?

The Cavs and Bulls are good...they are teams missing an essential piece, and they have the talent, and coaching, to cover up Scola's weakness.

Houston...has two injury prone stars, a coach who prefers offense over defense, and one who has never instilled mental toughness into his players.

And as bad as Houston's injuries are now...Adelman has never been the cure for inuries.

Remember when Larry Bird fucked the NBA by letting the Kings get Brad Miller?

And how Miller, under Adelman's tutelage, went from being a soft pouty non defending puss to being a hardass that was so intense he provoked Shaq into throwing down?

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:33 PM

Houston had no starting 4 and their backup 5 was 67 years old. The Spurs' gift took care of that.

stéphane

07-15-2007, 03:34 PM

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:35 PM

So what are the Spurs doing with their savings from this trade? What about from the Rose deal? The Nesterovic deal?

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:36 PM

whottt i think its not even worth trying to "defend" this trade...
most people in here just dreamt about scola and think he's boozer.
guess what he's good in europe sure but interior defenses have nothing to do with nba's D. he's 27 and we just drafted splitter. We have Oberto who is moving/passing/rotating better than scola will ever do... keep complaining if you want people.

So why give Scola away to a divisional rival? That's inexcusable, even if "David Robinson Jr." is on his way (not that Scola's rights had to be moved for Mahinmi to be brought in).

stéphane

07-15-2007, 03:36 PM

So what are the Spurs doing with their savings from this trade? What about from the Rose deal? The Nesterovic deal?
Aren't we close to luxury? and is the free agency over?

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:37 PM

How so? As long as it satisfies the objective to dump them and move on who cares where they end up?

What part of Jackie Butler takes up a roster spot and is not going to get on the court, don't you get?

And why in the hell are you worried about Jackie Fucking Butler?

Scola was gone if the Spurs didn't move him...gone for good, for nothing.

There's nothing wrong with a couple suspensions and the greatest playoff upset in NBA history to help you win a title...

Sincerely, the 2007 NBA Champions.

It seems like the Spurs and Spurs fans are overestimating what happened last season. Sure, every title team has a few breaks, but that doesn't mean you can start helping out charity cases like the Rockets.

You also don't fuck up your own roster by trying to hoarde shitbags you have no intention of playing...because you are worried about a team whose stars annually miss 50 games per season...

ArgSpursFan

07-15-2007, 03:37 PM

whottt i think its not even worth trying to "defend" this trade...
most people in here just dreamt about scola and think he's boozer.
guess what he's good in europe sure but interior defenses have nothing to do with nba's D. he's 27 and we just drafted splitter. We have Oberto who is moving/passing/rotating better than scola will ever do... keep complaining if you want people.

yeah,Coze your French mind tells you Ian will be better tham scola in the NBA,right? :blah

stéphane

07-15-2007, 03:37 PM

So why give Scola away to a divisional rival? That's inexcusable, even if "David Robinson Jr." is on his way (not that Scola's rights had to be moved for Mahinmi to be brought in).
the only angryness i can understand is based upon this rivalry...
but cleveland was a better option for the "winning a title" purpose?

BradLohaus

07-15-2007, 03:37 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ime_Udoka

"Rumors have surfaced, that the San Antonio Spurs have offered him a 3-year, $12 million contract, and he is close to signing."

Those numbers can't be true, right experts?

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:39 PM

So why give Scola away to a divisional rival? That's inexcusable, even if "David Robinson Jr." is on his way (not that Scola's rights had to be moved for Mahinmi to be brought in).

Scola's rights had to be moved to get rid of Butler without getting another shitbag that isn't even eligible for the D-league.

Sloth...you advocate sloth.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:39 PM

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 03:40 PM

Scola's rights had to be moved to get rid of Butler without getting another shitbag that isn't even eligible for the D-league.

Sloth...you advocate sloth.

I advocate not giving a playoff team in your division that took your conference finals opponent to 7 games the gift of a starting power forward and a backup center. Fairly clear, I would think.

stéphane

07-15-2007, 03:40 PM

yeah,Coze your French mind tells you Ian will be better tham scola in the NBA,right? :blah
Yeah sure so because i'm french i think TP<Manu and Mahinmi<Scola...
if this is all you have found you'd prolly have to find an other french, homer.
Ian isn't worth even playing with the toros. If you have time to write such BS. just look at my post history.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:41 PM

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:43 PM

I advocate not giving a playoff team in your division that took your conference finals opponent to 7 games the gift of a starting power forward and a backup center. Fairly clear, I would think.

Jackie Butler is not their freaking back up C...get that through you fucking skull.

Did you watch Butler play?

They gave up Scola...and cleared a roster spot...so they can sign someone to help them defend guys like TMac...

ArgSpursFan

07-15-2007, 03:44 PM

timvp and MB are still hearing Hakeem's footsteps in their sleep...old fears die hard. That's about 70% of their issue here...that, and because the Spurs turned down Nocioni and a #1 pick for Scola and Bulter because they wanted to throw the Rockets the title.

the spurs just dealt with the team that was willing to take the gamble on Butler.plain and simple.
the spurs didn´t want butler,eather the Bulls,cavs,etc.
The rockets took the gamble on Butler,maybe they really believe Scola can make them better,for next season and the near future of their franchise.

stéphane

07-15-2007, 03:46 PM

the spurs just dealt with the team that was willing to take the gamble on Butler.plain and simple.
the spurs didn´t want butler,eather the Bulls,cavs,etc.
The rockets took the gamble on Butler,maybe they really believe Scola can make them better,for next season and the near future of their franchise.
JB will basically never play (hope for Houston) so Scola is basically costing them 6M/year

Ocotillo

07-15-2007, 03:49 PM

John Lopez was the beat writer for the Spurs back in the days of the San Antonio Light. He left and went to the Chronicle at some point before the paper was merged with the Sxpress-News.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:50 PM

IF it's all about the money...and I agree it is to an extent, but it's also about getting guys in that they hope to use...hopefully this season...

Why are Barry and Beno still here?

What are the Spurs waiting on...that's the big salary dump.

Got to be another guard and SF on the horizon...

You guys say Vaginis aint coming...and you probably are right, but have they bought him out yet? Why not? I think they will make a token effort to get him to come over...

It's To save money you say?

I say part of it...it's an option.

The other part is so they can move Beno and Barry....because if he comes, that can also be an option.

I just don't think the Spurs are done yet...

If they are trying to improve, they still have moves to make...

If they are trying to save $$$, they still have moves to make.

And unlike timvp and MB...I believe the Spurs are capable of doing both...that's what makes them the Spurs.

That's why they let two HOF caliber centers go last year and replaced them with scrubs...and were a better team and won a title this season...with a smaller payroll.

whottt

07-15-2007, 03:59 PM

Well it's good that we finally got that settled :smokin

whottt

07-15-2007, 04:01 PM

For all you guys know Magette is wating in the wings for Beno and Barry, if Vaginis somehow changes his tune...and since his problems originally were with Van Gundy...

I'm not saying that's the plan...but it could certainly be an option....I think the Spurs tend to have more than one option on the moves they make.

Mr. Body

07-15-2007, 04:05 PM

whottt - I don't think you understand anything about this trade. This trade gets significantly worse (if possible) if Spanoulis is brought over.

Russ

07-15-2007, 04:12 PM

What effective NBA player does Scola remind anyone of? Maybe a poor man's Shareef Abdur Rahim?

Chickendog

07-15-2007, 04:14 PM

need not worry trust your spurs :hungry:

whottt

07-15-2007, 04:22 PM

whottt - I don't think you understand anything about this trade. This trade gets significantly worse (if possible) if Spanoulis is brought over.

Not if you move Barry and Beno...

And I don't think you understand Pop...

Pop does not like Beno.
Pop does not like Barry.

How often do guys Pop doesn't like stay on his roster? Especially at payroll trimming time?

What kept the Spurs from moving the both of them last season?

Not having another PG.

Figure it out.

I don't care if you think $$$...I don't care if you think improvement...the end result leads you to the same conclusion.

When was the last time two guys on multi year deals that were in Pop's doghouse finished their careers with the Spurs?

Use your own logic...

The Spurs basically gave a title to the Rockets to save money, so they wouldn't be paying guys not to do shit...and so they could get something rather than nothing.

Why wouldn't that same logic apply to Barry Beno? And in particular Barry's big ass contract?

IF the Spurs moved Butler and Scola so they wouldn't be paying guys they didn't use...why stop there? And Pop dislikes Barry and Beno much more than he disliked Butler...

Butler actually was trying to improve and he was cheaper.

I don't know that Vaginis is coming over...I just know Pop wants to dump Barry and Beno...the Spurs financially want to dump them...they probably would like to get something in return for them...and they need a back up PG and SF.

I'm just saying...I don't think the Spurs are done yet. Apply your own logic...you'll reach the same conclusion.

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 04:25 PM

Doesn't matter. If Spanolousususus comes over then the Spurs give up the cash from that trade. And dare I say Barry would be better than him.

whottt

07-15-2007, 04:26 PM

What effective NBA player does Scola remind anyone of? Maybe a poor man's Shareef Abdur Rahim?

Actually he's a lot like Tim Duncan...minus the defense, rebounding, poise, team first attitude, media saavy, and NBA ahtletic ability...

Marcus Bryant

07-15-2007, 04:27 PM

More like a Varejao or Gooden, but with a better post game.

whottt

07-15-2007, 04:32 PM

Doesn't matter. If Spanolousususus comes over then the Spurs give up the cash from that trade. And dare I say Barry would be better than him.

What's the worst case scenario? Pop doesn't play him? And that's different from Beno how?

At least Pop gets a fresh face to break down...and Vaginis will probably be a lot more entertaining to do that too than Beno was.

Chickendog

07-15-2007, 04:35 PM

SCOLA was sent to houston to insure that the mavericks won't get out of the first round AGAIN! :ihit

urunobili

07-15-2007, 04:42 PM

What effective NBA player does Scola remind anyone of? Maybe a poor man's Shareef Abdur Rahim?

it seems you haven't seen this guy... and that you don't know ANYTHING about basketball...

whottt

07-15-2007, 04:44 PM

it seems you haven't seen this guy... and that you don't know ANYTHING about basketball...

Um...if you think Scola is going to be able to hold Shareef's jock as an NBA player...it's you that don't know anything about basketball...

Let me guess? You are from Argentina?

Chickendog

07-15-2007, 04:45 PM

jackie butler was sent to houston for one reason only. the houston ship channel needs dredging.

Mr. Body

07-15-2007, 04:54 PM

:lol at Whootttt wanting to waste a roster space for a Greek guy who is a terrible NBA player. It would also mean losing out on $1.9M. You make no sense, dude.

timvp

07-15-2007, 04:59 PM

What effective NBA player does Scola remind anyone of? Maybe a poor man's Shareef Abdur Rahim?

Luis Scola = Antoine Carr

Not a great player but a guy who in his prime can get you 16 and 6. And not a guy you give to a divisional rival for nothing.

exstatic

07-15-2007, 05:01 PM

Why are Barry and Beno still here?

What are the Spurs waiting on...that's the big salary dump.
The minute the trade is approved, the one year clock starts ticking on the trade exception(s). July 15th doesn't give them much chance next year to fill out the roster to the cap before using the trade exception. I'm thinking you'll see movement on this front sometime in August. That give them time to shop next summer, then use the T.E.

stéphane

07-15-2007, 05:07 PM

Luis Scola = Antoine Carr

Not a great player but a guy who in his prime can get you 16 and 6. And not a guy you give to a divisional rival for nothing.
you seriously think scola would get that much with the spurs???
no way

ArgSpursFan

07-15-2007, 05:13 PM

you seriously think scola would get that much with the spurs???
no way

it all comes down to the coach.Any roockie would average from 0 to 15 MPG with Pop,that´s just the way Pop is.+Remember that Houston don´t have that many other players at the PF spot right now.I keep saying that Luis can be a 15/7 player if He gets the minutes and his coach´s and teammate´s trust.

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:19 PM

:lol at Whootttt wanting to waste a roster space for a Greek guy who is a terrible NBA player.

#1. I don't have a preference one way or the other, in fact if anything I like Beno better...it's just that everyone assumes the Spurs aren't interested in him...

When in fact...what kept them from moving Beno and Barry last year was the lack of a PG, that's the only reason they are still here, that situation has not changed, and Vaginis is a PG you know.

#2. Pop doesn't play Beno and has long since given up on him. Exactly what would be the difference?

#3. Spurs hired a Rockets FO executive...you don't think it's possible he has insight on the Rockets and Vaginis situation?

#4. You're a tard.

It would also mean losing out on $1.9M. You make no sense, dude.

I make plenty of sense...I sat here last year and watched everyone do this same shit and get owned this year by the FO. Including you.

And after your Javtokas stance/FO bashing...I'd never offer an opinion on a foreign player, talent evaluation and what they shoul be paid, again, if I were you.

You need to stick an I miss Javtokas for 3 mil per year, and so will you in your title, and wear it proudly...so you can join ploto in the prominent ST self asskickers club.

stéphane

07-15-2007, 05:19 PM

it all comes down to the coach.Any roockie would average from 0 to 15 MPG with Pop,that´s just the way Pop is.+Remember that Houston don´t have that many other players at the PF spot right now.I keep saying that Luis can be a 15/7 player if He gets the minutes and his coach´s and teammate´s trust.
man I really like watching Luis play with Tau (nearly as much as Papaloukas :p) but he has freaking Yao and T mac on his team. He will be ok I guess but his best asset is that he is a great low post threat with some nice moves. But physically it will be different from Spain/euroleague... w/o talking about the game pace.
His defense is so so. I just dont see him getting that much.

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:26 PM

Luis Scola = Antoine Carr

Not a great player but a guy who in his prime can get you 16 and 6. And not a guy you give to a divisional rival for nothing.

When, where and how is Scola going to get this six of which you speak? That's his Euroleague Max.

And looking a the fact that the Rockets roster is going to have James, Banzi, Head, TMac, Yao and Battier...I wouldn't count on the 16 either.

timvp

07-15-2007, 05:27 PM

whottt hurts his credibility when he's more scared of eastern conference teams who won less games than a western conference team like the Rockets. That's just lunacy. A healthy Rockets team >>>>>>>>>>>> the Bulls or Cavs.

Then again, this is the same guy who predicted Cavs in 5. Perhaps he doesn't understand the gap between the conferences.

The trade was stupid but here is how whottt should be defending the trade:

The Spurs needed a roster spot and wanted that roster spot to be Jackie Butler's roster spot. Barry has too much value. The Spurs haven't given up on Beno Udrih yet because if you chart his career, he's following a similar career path of Steve Nash.

Butler, on the other hand, was a project player who just didn't fit in the system. He still has a chance to have a decent NBA career, but the Spurs didn't like the fit. They shopped him around and the only deals that they got back included a player coming back to the Spurs. Since the Spurs wanted that roster spot, that didn't make much sense. They needed and wanted a way to trade Butler away to a team that could just absorb both his salary and his roster spot.

Scola had decent value around the league. Some of the better teams in the league were probably offering first round picks but with these Spurs, they'd rather have a decent second round pick than a late first round pick due to the guaranteed money first rounders receive.

Instead of dealing Scola away for a pick that could easily be in the late 20's, the Spurs decided to trade Scola with Butler to help achieve the goal of opening up a roster spot. They tried to find a team in the Eastern Conference who would be receptive to such a deal. The Cavs and Bulls were high on Scola but they didn't have the resources to let the Spurs open up a roster spot. There was a three team trade in the works that would have sent Butler to the Kings and Scola to the Cavs which was very close to happening on Thursday, but it fell apart.

By the time that trade fell apart, the Spurs had to act fast. For a team to successfully buyout Scola's contract, they needed to trade him within the next 24 hours. If the Spurs waited longer than that, Scola's value would be zero and the Spurs would be stuck without being able to open up a roster spot.

The Rockets, who had this trade on the table the whole time, were the last team available who could meet all the criteria. They would absorb Butler's contract and would give the Spurs cash on top of it. While the Spurs didn't want to deal with a divisional rival, the deal was too good to pass up if you look at the money aspect.

With Scola's true value being a late first round pick, late first round picks are usually bought and sold for $3M. By including Scola in the trade to Houston, the Spurs were actually saving more than $6M -- which is the equivalent of two late first round picks. On top of that, the Spurs were receiving a second round pick.

So if you convert what the Spurs got into picks, the trade would end up looking like Butler and Scola for two late first rounders and a second rounder. Looking at it like that, the Spurs get nice value for their assets.

Bottomline is the Spurs opened up the roster spot they wanted to open up while using Scola as bait and in return got the equivalent of multiple picks and a roster spot. Now, the Spurs can use that roster spot for a wing who falls through the cracks of free agency (someone like Barnes), a tough defender who could eventually replace Bowen (someone like Udoka) or one of their other Euro prospects (someone like Mahinmi or Sanikidze).

See now, that makes sense. I didn't have to trash Scola as being some sort of Anti-Christ and Butler isn't some handicapped deaf mute with a beard. I absolutely understand what the Spurs were thinking, but it just wasn't the best option. There were many ways to skin this cat ... the Spurs just picked the wrong method.

timvp

07-15-2007, 05:28 PM

The Spurs needed a roster spot and wanted that roster spot to be Jackie Butler's roster spot. Barry has too much value. The Spurs haven't given up on Beno Udrih yet because if you chart his career, he's following a similar career path of Steve Nash.

Butler, on the other hand, was a project player who just didn't fit in the system. He still has a chance to have a decent NBA career, but the Spurs didn't like the fit. They shopped him around and the only deals that they got back included a player coming back to the Spurs. Since the Spurs wanted that roster spot, that didn't make much sense. They needed and wanted a way to trade Butler away to a team that could just absorb both his salary and his roster spot.

Scola had decent value around the league. Some of the better teams in the league were probably offering first round picks but with these Spurs, they'd rather have a decent second round pick than a late first round pick due to the guaranteed money first rounders receive.

Instead of dealing Scola away for a pick that could easily be in the late 20's, the Spurs decided to trade Scola with Butler to help achieve the goal of opening up a roster spot. They tried to find a team in the Eastern Conference who would be receptive to such a deal. The Cavs and Bulls were high on Scola but they didn't have the resources to let the Spurs open up a roster spot. There was a three team trade in the works that would have sent Butler to the Kings and Scola to the Cavs which was very close to happening on Thursday, but it fell apart.

By the time that trade fell apart, the Spurs had to act fast. For a team to successfully buyout Scola's contract, they needed to trade him within the next 24 hours. If the Spurs waited longer than that, Scola's value would be zero and the Spurs would be stuck without being able to open up a roster spot.

The Rockets, who had this trade on the table the whole time, were the last team available who could meet all the criteria. They would absorb Butler's contract and would give the Spurs cash on top of it. While the Spurs didn't want to deal with a divisional rival, the deal was too good to pass up if you look at the money aspect.

With Scola's true value being a late first round pick, late first round picks are usually bought and sold for $3M. By including Scola in the trade to Houston, the Spurs were actually saving more than $6M -- which is the equivalent of two late first round picks. On top of that, the Spurs were receiving a second round pick.

So if you convert what the Spurs got into picks, the trade would end up looking like Butler and Scola for two late first rounders and a second rounder. Looking at it like that, the Spurs get nice value for their assets.

Bottomline is the Spurs opened up the roster spot they wanted to open up while using Scola as bait and in return got the equivalent of multiple picks and a roster spot. Now, the Spurs can use that roster spot for a wing who falls through the cracks of free agency (someone like Barnes), a tough defender who could eventually replace Bowen (someone like Udoka) or one of their other Euro prospects (someone like Mahinmi or Sanikidze).

Damn, I'm better at being whottt than whottt is.

:smokin

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:29 PM

timvp

07-15-2007, 05:30 PM

Wouldn't it have just been easier to type...let me backpedal here maybe Whottt is on to something. Did you read where I said I didn't agree with myself?

And I think the Spurs have absolutely given up on Beno and Barry and want to move them. In fact I think they will.Yeah, we'll see.

timvp acting as whottt > whottt

:hat

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:32 PM

And I have been trashing Scola...his attitude, and his game...forever....why am I going to stop now?

It's got nothing to do with defending this trade...I'd be attacking Scola the same way if he was on the roster...

I'm just glad the Spurs went with my instincts...

timvp

07-15-2007, 05:34 PM

timvp

07-15-2007, 05:37 PM

I liked Butler when the Spurs signed him. I liked him earlier this summer. The Spurs traded him and he became a Special Ed sloth who couldn't form a sentence to save his life.

True.

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:45 PM

True.

I defended Butler's offensive game and his intent...

I still do.

I did not defend his taking plays off, OFFENSIVE PLAYS OFF...offensive plays off? The dude takes offensive plays off...

Jackie Butler takes offensive plays offs...offensive plays...

Am I the only one that saw this?

The team featuring him, and he is taking offensive plays off.

You know why Watson was making like AI? Because he was trying to score 4 on 5 while Butler was getting CPR.

...in fact, the more I saw him do it, the less I liked him, the more I realiazed he could never be a Spur. It's apparent in the game threads...

I defended Butler when everyone said he had no talent...but I also was in flat out shock at the fact that he took offensive plays off.

Offensive plays...

I've never seen an NBA player take offensive plays off before...

Dennis Rodman didn't take offensive plays off.

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:48 PM

I've never seen anyone take offensive plays off in a pick up game before...except me...when I have put down a six pack of beer and smoking a cig in the middle of a game...at the age of 39.

This dude wouldn't get picked in a street game...

timvp

07-15-2007, 05:52 PM

This dude wouldn't get picked in a street game...

Exaggeration taken to whole new levels.

Impressive.

And you don't think that Udonis Haslem took off plays when he weighed 300 pounds? You really think Butler took off plays because he wanted to? It's called being out of shape.

Mr. Body

07-15-2007, 05:52 PM

I've never seen an NBA player take offensive plays off before...

Dennis Rodman didn't take offensive plays off.

Wow. Just wow. All kinds of stuff pulled out of your ass. Stop before you find a battleship or a herd of camels or something.

SAGambler

07-15-2007, 05:52 PM

whottt i think its not even worth trying to "defend" this trade...
most people in here just dreamt about scola and think he's boozer.
guess what he's good in europe sure but interior defenses have nothing to do with nba's D. he's 27 and we just drafted splitter. We have Oberto who is moving/passing/rotating better than scola will ever do... keep complaining if you want people.

Pretty much the way it is. And as I have pointed out before, both Manu and Fabs have actually been teammates with this guy, and if he is as great as perceived, surely they would have lobbied for him to come join the Spurs.

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:55 PM

If we dug Wilt up and put him on the court, he'd miss fewer plays than Butler was...

Offensive plays off...

Unreal.

whottt

07-15-2007, 05:57 PM

Exaggeration taken to whole new levels.

Impressive.

And you don't think that Udonis Haslem took off plays when he weighed 300 pounds? You really think Butler took off plays because he wanted to? It's called being out of shape.

Oh well...hell when you put it like that...sign him up and put him on the court.[/pop]

Mr. Body

07-15-2007, 05:57 PM

Pretty much the way it is. And as I have pointed out before, both Manu and Fabs have actually been teammates with this guy, and if he is as great as perceived, surely they would have lobbied for him to come join the Spurs.

I don't doubt they did.

Money > good character witnesses.

leemajors

07-15-2007, 06:36 PM

More like a Varejao or Gooden, but with a better post game.
and considerably less rebounds.

Russ

07-15-2007, 06:46 PM

Luis Scola = Antoine Carr.

That reminds me of what Carr (an ABA Player) said when the leagues merged in 1976 and he got shipped to the Pistons of the NBA.

Now that I'm in the NBA, you can't call me Antoine Carr -- it's Abdul Automobile.

Thinking about it more, I've concluded two things:

1) The Spurs could have gotten a first round pick for Scola straight up.

True, but they had to get rid of Butler too. And it turns out, rightly or wrongly, Butler's trade value at his salary was a negative.

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:15 PM

True, but they had to get rid of Butler too. And it turns out, rightly or wrongly, Butler's trade value at his salary was a negative.

That's tough to buy if the Kings were willing to take him on. Why did the Kings want him if his value was negative? It's not a coincidence that when the Kings missed out on Butler, they went and signed a center in free agency.

Butler had value ... but the teams that wanted him couldn't absorb his contract without sending someone back. As it turns out, the Spurs valued the roster spot and the cash saved more than the draft picks they could have gotten if they traded the players separately.

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:19 PM

That's tough to buy if the Kings were willing to take him on. Why did the Kings want him if his value was negative? It's not a coincidence that when the Kings missed out on Butler, they went and signed a center in free agency.

Butler had value ... but the teams that wanted him couldn't absorb his contract without sending someone back. As it turns out, the Spurs valued the roster spot and the cash saved more than the draft picks they could have gotten if they traded the players separately.

Yes...the Spurs should have taken other teams crappy contracts for scrubs their non playoff teams have given up on, that they don't want, just to get an extra second rounder..and not have slots to sign players that can help the repeat...and pay the lux tax

Because that would have proved Holt is Mark Cuban, and that's really what the offseason is all about :tu

By the end of this thread timvp will have convinced himself we turned down a #1 pick for Butler as well...

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:23 PM

LMAO...the irony of all this is...

If the Spurs were that high on Scola...he would have wound up in Seattle...or Portland.

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:24 PM

Yes...the Spurs should have taken other teams crappy contracts for scrubs their non playoff teams have given up on, that they don't want, just to get an extra second rounder..and not have slots to sign players that can help the repeat...and pay the lux tax

Because that would have proved Holt is Mark Cuban, and that's really what the offseason is all about :tu

By the end of this thread timvp will have convinced himself we turned down a #1 pick for Butler as well...

Mahinmi is going to help the Spurs win a championship next year? I know you have him pegged as the next David Robinson, but that's taking it too far even for you.

You should return to your takes on how Vaginis is really coming to the Spurs and how it was a CIA Pop move to put Scola in Houston so Duncan could destroy him four times a year. At least those takes were entertaining.

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:25 PM

LMAO...the irony of all this is...

If the Spurs were that high on Scola...he would have wound up in Seattle...or Portland.

Or Cleveland . . .

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:28 PM

Just out of curiosity....

How much does Travis Outlaw make?

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:28 PM

Mahinmi is going to help the Spurs win a championship next year? I know you have him pegged as the next David Robinson, but that's taking it too far even for you.

You should return to your takes on how Vaginis is really coming to the Spurs and how it was a CIA Pop move to put Scola in Houston so Duncan could destroy him four times a year. At least those takes were entertaining.

Mahinimi could help the Spurs this year...

You have way too high of an opinion of Elson.

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:29 PM

Just out of curiosity....

How much does Travis Outlaw make?

As of now, nothing.

T Park

07-15-2007, 07:30 PM

It's not a coincidence that when the Kings missed out on Butler, they went and signed a center in free agency.

How do we know the reason the trade fell apart WASN'T because the Kings signed Moore?

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:35 PM

As of now, nothing.

More than likely Cleveland was doing us a favor by pretending to be interested...that's the kind of help I could see an ex Spur Brass giving us...

I just think it's ironic that not a single one of the Spurs Family, even the non threatening ones...wound up with Scola...or Butler.

If they were as good as you think they were, and the Spurs truly believed that...those guys would have gone after them.

While someone outside of the family did.

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:39 PM

Fact:
Spurs could have kept Scola and Butler instead of Bonner and Oberto...

They didn't...why? It's not because Bonner and Oberto were cheaper.

Seattle could have dumped Damien Wilkins...they have no offensive C, they have no polished and consistent post scorer...

Butler and Scola would have been a perfect fit and it would fit with Presti's desire to clean house...by getting rid of the old school Sonics...

It would have helped them...the pick would have been better...Seattle knows it's rebuilding, and the Spurs are in the last leg of the Duncan era...

The conclusion is escapable...

Scola and Butler suck....and those in the family know it. Figure it out.

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:44 PM

Scola and Butler suck....and those in the family know it. Figure it out.

Did they forget to tell Ferry?

And I don't know if you follow the Sonics, but they already have about 75 centers and two power forwards (Collison and Wilcox) locked into deals.

And there's a decent to good chance they'll end up playing Durant and Green and the 3 and the 4.

mystargtr34

07-15-2007, 07:46 PM

Travis Outlaw is restricted i assume?

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:51 PM

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:52 PM

Did they forget to tell Ferry?

And I don't know if you follow the Sonics, but they already have about 75 centers

All of which suck...just not as bad as Butler.

and two power forwards (Collison and Wilcox) locked into deals.

They've got like two of them locked up for certain beyond this season...

They also have a surplus of SF.

And there's a decent to good chance they'll end up playing Durant and Green and the 3 and the 4.

So let me get this straight...the Sonics don't have room or time for 25 projects...but we do?

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:54 PM

25 projects

Butler or Butler's replacement Mahinmi is a project. That's one. Perhaps Williams, White or Sanikidze. That's maybe two.

Who else is a project?

picnroll

07-15-2007, 07:56 PM

Bottomline is Butler and Scola were given away for a late second round pick in '09. Anybody trying to say that they were highly valued is smoking some great shit. Teams didn't see much collective value in the two. Navarro is an example of what happens when a Euro is valued, teams go after him. Maybe Scola will pan out. Maybe Butler will pan out but not because their is a lot of regard for either. Maybe those claiming that are so smart they should be made GMS. However, an NBDL player Amir Johnson got more action than Scola.

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:56 PM

And for Portland, I'm pretty sure they drafted this center guy. Not sure there. :rolleyes

Three of their best four players either player power forward or center (Oden, Aldridge and Frye). Not to mention having Przybilla locked up in a deal.

Well it's good to see you are starting to realize Scola and Butler's worth...

As in...the both of them combined aren't worth Chuck Hayes, much less any of the guys you mentioned.

whottt

07-15-2007, 07:57 PM

Butler or Butler's replacement Mahinmi is a project. That's one. Perhaps Williams, White or Sanikidze. That's maybe two.

Who else is a project?

I know this going to come as a shock to you since you are quite fond of them...but their first names are Beno and Francisco.

timvp

07-15-2007, 07:58 PM

:lol Now whottt is throwing his boy Francisco under the bus as well. The original next David Robinson who was going to carry this team to a championship in the playoffs. :rollin

:lmao @ a 31-year-old project. Maybe the Spurs should sign Kevin Willis to be the oldest project on record.

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:03 PM

Hey...some guys are bigger projects than others.

I never said Elson didn't need to improve...it's possible to contribute and still be a project.

Elson has a lot of room for improvement.

timvp

07-15-2007, 08:03 PM

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:06 PM

You realize if we do a trade with Seattle and wind up with Wilkins or Gelabale you are going to get owned...

picnroll

07-15-2007, 08:07 PM

You really think the Spurs did the trade for the second round draft pick? That's a new take.

The Spurs did it for the roster spot and the $$.
I don't believe for a second they did it for a second round pick. If you think teams were as high on Butler as you are wouldn't they have more than matched the offer the Spurs got for Scola and Butler from the Rockets? Or do you think the Spurs turned down better offers for those two because they wanted to help the Rockets out?

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:07 PM

You really think the Spurs did the trade for the second round draft pick? That's a new take.

The Spurs did it for the roster spot and the $$.

How come the Bobcats weren't interested?

timvp

07-15-2007, 08:09 PM

I don't believe for a second they did it for a second round pick. If you think teams were as high on Butler as you are wouldn't they have more than matched the offer the Spurs got for Scola and Butler from the Rockets? Or do you think the Spurs turned down better offers for those two because they wanted to help the Rockets out?Any better offers required the Spurs to take back salary. They didn't want to do that. They wanted the $$$. And the $$$ saved with the trade with Houston was more valuable to them than a first rounder, or so they believed.

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:09 PM

I don't believe for a second they did it for a second round pick. If you think teams were as high on Butler as you are wouldn't they have more than matched the offer the Spurs got for Scola and Butler from the Rockets? Or do you think the Spurs turned down better offers for those two because they wanted to help the Rockets out?

timvp isn't high on Butler or Scola, and he hasn't ever been really...he's so full of crap it's not even funny...

He's pissed because A.He hates the Rockets and still sweats 95 and B. He wanted more. and finally...C. GhostWriter no longer posts on the forum.

timvp

07-15-2007, 08:10 PM

You realize if we do a trade with Seattle and wind up with Wilkins or Gelabale you are going to get owned...Huh?

Explain.

picnroll

07-15-2007, 08:12 PM

Any better offers required the Spurs to take back salary. They didn't want to do that. They wanted the $$$. And the $$$ saved with the trade with Houston was more valuable to them than a first rounder, or so they believed.
There were other teams with salary cap, with trade exceptions that could have done the deal. I mean we're talking about Butler, a guy with starting C potential right, and Scola as a throw in.

timvp

07-15-2007, 08:16 PM

timvp isn't high on Butler or Scola, and he hasn't ever been really...he's so full of crap it's not even funny...

He's pissed because A.He hates the Rockets and still sweats 95 and B. He wanted more. and finally...C. GhostWriter no longer posts on the forum.

:lol @ Ghostwriter card.

I've already explained why I disagreed with the trade. It was a combination of panicking and a money grab. My three main reasons why I don't like it:

1) Waiting until next summer and risking getting nothing > Getting nothing now.

2) You don't salary dump a player who is making less than half of the MLE with one year left on his contract. When in the history of the NBA has that happened? I can understand salary dumping Rasho or even Malik ... but a guy making $2.3???? That makes no sense. You don't sell low to the point that you get absolutely nothing in return just to get away from a nothing contract.

3) You don't give a divisional rival a trade in which there is absolutely no downside for them. The Rockets got a zero risk and potentially high reward trade. The Spurs got money that they may or may not use.

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:16 PM

Huh?

Explain.

Because that'll mean the Sonics really weren't interested in Scola..or Butler...which is going to mean neither were the Spurs.

timvp

07-15-2007, 08:19 PM

There were other teams with salary cap, with trade exceptions that could have done the deal. I mean we're talking about Butler, a guy with starting C potential right, and Scola as a throw in.The Kings apparently wanted Butler and were offering something that it looks like the Spurs wanted, but that trade fell apart.

Scola was more difficult to trade (although he had more value) because first of all, the team who they traded him to already had to have a contract worked out with him. The deadline was coming up. Plus you'd have to be confident in your international scouting enough to give him lottery money pick off the boat.

The Rockets paid a big price for Butler and Scola. The thing is that price came in terms of money and not tangible basketball assets.

timvp

07-15-2007, 08:26 PM

Because that'll mean the Sonics really weren't interested in Scola..or Butler...which is going to mean neither were the Spurs.Did you miss the part where I said that Butler and Scola would make no sense for them because they are overloaded in those positions?

Now, yes, someone like Barry makes sense for them.

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:39 PM

Did you miss the part where I said that Butler and Scola would make no sense for them because they are overloaded in those positions?

Now, yes, someone like Barry makes sense for them.

Their C's suck...

Kori Ellis

07-15-2007, 08:41 PM

Their C's suck...
But they don't think their center suck. They think Robert Swift is awesome and that Sene is going to become a beast. The only one they probably think sucks is Petro.

Mr.Bottomtooth

07-15-2007, 08:43 PM

The only one I see with starter's potential is Sene.

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:43 PM

And Petro is the best one...

whottt

07-15-2007, 08:43 PM

I have had everyone of those pieces of crap on my d-league roster...they all suck.

timvp

07-15-2007, 08:52 PM

I have had everyone of those pieces of crap on my d-league roster...they all suck.
All three of them are 21-years-old. Patience, grasshoppah.

Centers don't peak that young. Centers, other than the best ones, can't even walk up the court and chew gum at the same time at that age.

You expect Butler, Swift, Petro and Sene to play like David Robinson. Even David Robinson, Jr. aka Francisco Elson couldn't an NBA rotation until he was 30.

timvp

07-16-2007, 01:13 AM

^^ Damn, that was some hardcore ownage. Four hours later and still now response. I apologize :smokin

What the Jackie Butler experience should teach the Spurs is to stay away from projects. The coaching staff, the front office, the beat writers and the fans of the team won't allow a project to grow. Butler was the age of a rookie. He was the best player by far on the summer league team.

He was chubby and had some youthful indiscretions along the way so what do the Spurs do? The concoct the first salary dump in NBA history that consisted of a player making less than half the MLE with one year left on his contract. That's simply stunning.

I admit that Butler became a less than perfect fit for the Spurs with the continuance of the NBA getting smaller and smaller. We are coming off a year where a team that plays three point guards at the same time (the Bulls) swept a team with Shaquille O'Neal. The NBA got even smaller over the last year and that made Butler less of a long term fit.

When the Spurs signed Butler, the Heat were coming off of a championship. It appeared that perhaps small ball would just be a phase. Last year proved that if you can't defend against small ball, you can't win an NBA championship these days. If the Golden State Warriors would have had success the previous summer, the Spurs never would have signed Butler.

The game changed so Butler's future changed. But that doesn't change the fact that he's a decent to good prospect. And it doesn't change the fact that the Spurs are a poor team at developing talent.

In the Tim Duncan era, the only player the Spurs developed was Tony Parker. And even with him, the front office gave up on him at 21-years-old and wanted to bring in a replacement. They said Parker didn't practice hard enough. They said Parker didn't want it bad enough. They said Parker didn't have a good work ethic. Luckily, Jason Kidd didn't sign and the Spurs were forced to settle for Parker as their point guard.

Everyone other young player the Spurs have ever signed in the Tim Duncan era has been let go. Devin Brown? Bad work ethic. Stephen Jackson? Wasn't committed enough. Even Malik Rose who gave his heart and soul to the team was shipped out with his work ethic being questioned.

The Spurs expect to sign young players and have them act like a 37-year-old Steve Kerr or Danny Ferry. That just isn't the case. A 21-year-old Jackie Butler wasn't going to come in with a Jerome Kersey ruggedness. It's just not how it works.

Not being able to handle young player through the maturation process is a big reason why this team has yet to be able to repeat. Instead of using young player who are getting better and better, the Spurs rely on old vets to win rings. That's great but old gets older.

What developing youth did the 2000, 2004 and 2006 Spurs teams have aboard?

What the Spurs should learn from the Butler fiasco is to either learn how to manage youth throughout the maturation process or to just not even go with youth. While the first option is preferred, I don't think the coaches, front office or fans are built to let a player develop.

The better option is to just forget about young players. Go with the Ime Udoka types ... 30 years old so he's matured but still has some good years left. No use wasting energy on Butlers or Amir Johnsons because the Spurs won't see the potential out.

Plus, this team can't draft domestic talent if their life depended on it. They had the 33rd pick and selected possibly the worst player in the draft. I've watched a lot of summer league and I literally haven't seen a player drafted who was worse than Williams.

Stick with Udokas, Bowens, Obertos and the other ready made veterans who are grown and ready to produce.

Mr. Body

07-16-2007, 01:22 AM

As for youth: I hope they can get Mahinmi and Sanikidze over this summer. Just do it. The Kidze will be cheap enough - hell, they both will - and have the speed and skills to pass the eye test for what the Spurs need.

As for drafting: The Spurs suck at domestic scouting. They suck so bad it's astonishing. I was laughed at by some wiseacres at my response to our draft: "underwhelming." But that was it - Splitter was a good pick, especially since it came out that he has a clear buyout next summer. It was the Marcus Williams pick. There were 4-5 players, at least, I had pegged who were still on the board that I would have been very happy with. Instead, in the noisy bar, I leaned forward to try to make out what was said. Marcus Williams made little sense that high.

Derrick Byars
Josh McRoberts
Dominic McGuire
Glen Davis
Demetrius Nichols

and I probably would have taken Taurean Green, Chris Richards, and Reyshawn Terry above Williams.

Granted, a few of those didn't fit immediate needs (Big Baby, McRoberts), but I felt they were much better ideas.

Hell, Kyrylo Fesenko is an aces interview and may actually turn out to be something. Why not him?

timvp

07-16-2007, 01:26 AM

If the did they draft over right now, Marcus Williams wouldn't be drafted. Even if they extended it to three rounds, I doubt he'd get drafted.

I literally haven't seen a guy who was drafted that I'd take Williams over right now.

Let me try to think of one . . .

spurscenter

07-16-2007, 01:27 AM

I DONT MIND LOSING BUTLER

but for god sakes PAY SCOLA the 3 years for 9 MILLION

and get rid of BARRYS 5 MIL

so now we will pay UDOKA, 3 years for 9

when we could pay SCOLA 3 years for 10 mil?

spurscenter

07-16-2007, 01:27 AM

Hitting the jackpot. Rockets land Scola.

In an arena full of scouts and coaches, executives and media, there was a pretty good little buzz of conversation going around.

Luis Scola was traded. And though that name might not mean much to casual NBA fans, in this room, it's a pretty big chunk of news.

This guy can play. He plays with the intensity typical of those great Argentine teams he shared with Manu Ginobili, Andres Nocioni and Fabricio Oberto. He has a nice shot, a great feel for how to use it, and will defend with all hie's got. And in the five years since the Spurs drafted him, he has become a seasoned pro.

He's not a superstar. The Rockets did not just get an answer to Tim Duncan for a guy that swore he'd never play for them again, and a few add ons they'll never miss.

They got the rights to a guy teams have been trying to get from the Spurs for years.

The trick of course is signing him. But Daryl Morey was permitted to talk to Scola and left those conversations sure that Scola would be playing for the Rockets next season.

If he comes, this is a steal, a something for nothing trade.

He's not an All Star. But he is a terrific fit.

All things considered, this is an even better deal.
• • •

The Rockets might have gotten lucky for more than the obvious reasons.

The Spurs were working on a three-way deal with the Kings and Cavaliers that could have included Scola. When they fell through, they moved to the Rockets deal, dropping the Jackie Butler salary.

They could still get in on that, having moved further from the luxury tax. Or the Cavaliers and Kings could make it work without the Spurs, presumably involving Mike Bibby. But the Rockets got in and out before Scola's deadline with Tau Ceramica. And in a way, it did not cost them anyone that was going to contribute next season.
• • •

Another theory making the rounds -- ok, it's mine -- is that the Rockets are collecting guys named Luis. That makes Luis Scola, Luis Flores and Nelson Luis, the Rockets director of media relations.

Posted by Jonathan Feigen at July 12, 2007 10:11 PM
Comments

Thanks Jonathan for your insight! I never heard of the guy but I'm excited to hear the news...Rockets Fan

Posted by: Rockets Fan at July 12, 2007 10:31 PM

John, Great trade for the Rox. We get rid of "cry me a river, gimme my mommy" Vspan and get a true PF in Scola and backup C in Butler. When we do sign Scola, do we have to use the MLE to sign him? Would this mean we won't be signing a veteran PF like Joe Smith? Also is Morey working on more deals to acquire a veteran PF and trading away sura's contract, JL3, rafer, snyder, justin reed? Any word on Haslem for Rafer/Head? Great trade though and do you think Dennis Lindsey is playing undercover for the rox?

(They will use between $3 million and $3.5 million of the trade exception. I don't think they will use mid-level money on another forward. They can sign Chuck Hayes without using it. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: kevin at July 12, 2007 10:44 PM

I have got to say that Morey dod a very good job.
Jon what do you think our next move will be?
If this trades solves us the starting pf spot and we re-sign Chuck Hayes and Deke , How do you think we will use our trading assets like Snyder or Head , one of them will have to be 3rd stringe and they are too good for that.
Do you think there is a possibility we will trade Rafer and one of Luther or Snyder with fillers for an upgrade point gurad??Another power forward?
What direction are you guessing we will go if we sign Scola?
Thanks Jon.

(I don't know where they go from here after signing Hayes and probably Mutombo. They might look to move a contract or two. There are a lot of guys under contract. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: Shay at July 12, 2007 10:46 PM

Great reporting, Jonathan. Here's my take:

If Scola turns out to be the real deal, Morey might have vindicated himself after drawing the wrath of many Rocket fans who couldn't believe he selected Aaron Brooks and Carl Landry in the draft. No one saw this deal coming. Kudos to Morey for pulling it off.

What's also amazing is that Morey carries very little risk of looking like a bad guy in dealing Spanoulis, who many still believe has great upside in the NBA. As you reported last week, Spanoulis said he wouldn't play in the U.S., even if he were traded to the Spurs and given the starting point guard job. So if he stays true to his word, Spanoulis won't haunt the Rockets in what "could have been."

And if Spanoulis changes his mind and decides to come back to the NBA, he will be a liar in the biggest sense of the word and will take Morey and the Rockets off the hook. Although I like Spanoulis and hated to see him give up so soon on his NBA career, I'm enjoying how Spanoulis and his agent have painted themselves in a corner with that statement about not even wanting to play for the Spurs.

So why would the Spurs do this deal? Probably to create additional cap space after the Spurs let Spanoulis out of his contract (they just signed backup PG Jacques Vaughn today), and the fact the Spurs couldn't offer a starting PF job to Scola like the Rockets because of a guy they already have a PF/Center named Tim Duncan.

Also, the Spurs already have a backup Argentinian PF in Oberto as you mentioned. I could see why Scola wouldn't want to be the third Argentinian on the Spurs (Manu Ginobili being the other one), stay out of their shadows, and make a name for himself on his own. It also probably didn't hurt that former Rockets' assistant GM Dennis Lindsey took an opportunity of a lifetime by accepting the Spurs' assistant GM job a few weeks ago. Lindsey and Morey get along well, so it probably made it easier to for them to communicate to do this deal.

Good job, Morey. It has been an up-and-down off-season. First, how the JVG firing was handled (downer). Then trading for Mike James (good). Then the 'questionable' draft of Brooks and Landry (downer?). Now the Scola-Spanoulis trade (good). I guess he's due for a downer.

Posted by: John at July 12, 2007 10:51 PM

I appreciate you going out on a limb with an emphatic endorsement of this trade. Some fans think it was a dumb move, but they did not know who parker, ginobli, or oberto were before they became famous. The Spurs have Duncan, they do not need Scola. We need him or a 4 like him. Great move! I don't think we are done either. It could be interesting if Stevie will play for the minimum, Rafer or lucas would have to go. I think fans are too hard on Skip. He might flourish in a wide open offense. As a season ticket holder, I am pleased. Go Rockets!

Posted by: astrowoody at July 12, 2007 10:53 PM

This is a big suprise but a nice one considering we get a really good power foward who has been under radar because he played the same spot as Tim Duncan, for someone who is a burden and a garbage for us. Considering that Scola is packaged together with Jackie Butler, 6-10 1/2 22yo c/f, is just like an icing to the cake. We still have bullets on Head, Snyder, JL3, who can be used for another trade.

Jon, a couple of question for you, after Milicic is rejected out of Orlando, where will he be going to? Can Rocket still pursue him? Then, with Scola, is he definitely will be coming to play for Rocket this coming season or not?

(Memphis. And Scola is not definite, but sounds probable. -- Jonathan),/i>

Posted by: BondieBoy at July 12, 2007 10:53 PM

VIVA SCOLA!!! Ole ole ole ole..ole..ole!!!

Posted by: Paul Sensei at July 12, 2007 10:54 PM

Hey, so I saw the "Vegas Jackpot" thread too late to post in it, but I did put this in the "Free Agent Fireworks" thread:

"Jonathan,

Is Luis Scola a possibility?

(I like Scola's game a lot, and he would fit the Rockets well. But the Spurs being the Spurs, what do the Rockets have to offer in a trade that the Spurs could use? -- Jonathan)

Posted by: ham at July 4, 2007 02:00 PM"

So basically, I think that I should get props. Thanks!

(I think we have a winner, unless someone had the other half. . -- Jonathan)

Posted by: ham at July 12, 2007 10:56 PM

I feel like Dennis Lindsey returns the Rockets a favor. The Spurs have options to trade Scola's rights to some eastern teams but they trade Scola to their division rival. Maybe the Rockets give what the Spurs want - immediate cap room. Not a bad trade from both side. It's a win-win situation. If Scola turns out to be 14/8, then the Rockets win even more.

Posted by: andrew at July 12, 2007 10:56 PM

One last thing. This is a great trade even if Billy plays back-up point for the Spurs,but he won't.

Posted by: astrowoody at July 12, 2007 10:57 PM

hey jonathan what type of play is Luis Scola i mean i read ur blog is he like a better Anderson Varejao does he have a shot can he hit jumpers

(Yes, he is a solid shooter. Not great range, but can't be left open to double. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: Rocketman at July 12, 2007 11:02 PM

Looks like people are excited about this....so YIIIIIPPPPPPPIIIIEEEE!

Thanks Morey, you've made me a die hard fan of the Rockets all over again! Vote of confidence.

Posted by: Aaron at July 12, 2007 11:04 PM

hey jonathan do you think the rockets are done looking for deals for a power foward and how much Scola will get paid

(Yes, I do. And I'd think between $3 million and $3.5 million. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: The Champ at July 12, 2007 11:08 PM

This is simply an amazing trade. Very low risk, with a huge reward if Scola comes over and performs like expected.

Jonathan what do you think the Rockets do next, besides moving JL3, and the retirement of Sura.

Posted by: Brad at July 12, 2007 11:13 PM

Great deal. On paper he is a starter now for us.

If we dared, do we trade some of our PG's for another back-up PF and sign Stevie Franchise? He is dribble and penetrate guy we need.

And maybe Rick can fix the ball hog.

Posted by: Cody at July 12, 2007 11:15 PM

John

Would you say that this is the best realistic deal they could have gotten at the PF position. I mean considering all of the possible trades and free agent signings?

(Yes, I can't think of one that brings a as solid a player without taking on age or a bad contract. As far as free agents, I'm not sure because it seems they could not have gotten the better forwards. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: Uriel at July 12, 2007 11:17 PM

Have heard good things about Scola from sites for quite a while. Question is, what would entice the Spurs to trade a player like Scola to a division rival?

(Cost cutting. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: Ian at July 12, 2007 11:24 PM

I like the deal. so what else do we need in order to take out the champs? I think with the new coach were primed an ready to go the distance.

Posted by: Quiet at July 12, 2007 11:25 PM

YES!!!

I love it.

B

Posted by: Brandon at July 12, 2007 11:26 PM

Very true Jonathan, but give this guy some more credit. This guy is a "powerhouse" forward among other forwards. He's aggressive to the basket, has no fear & dunks on people w/raw power. Houston is going to fall in love w/this guy quickly.I was wondering myself why no one has drafted this guy until I heard he was under contract w/ San Antonio. Awesome trade Morey...I feel much better about Vspan now. This was a 2002 article I found on the internet on Espn. Look at what Popovich says about Scola:

Are you ready for the next Manu Ginobili? That's what NBA insiders are talking about the night before the NBA Draft, and it's a name Spurs fans have heard before.

Luis Scola, the stud power forward who played with Manu on Argentina's Olympic team. The Spurs drafted Scola in the second round in 2002.

"Luis Scola almost certainly will be a better NBA player than anyone who will be drafted Tuesday night," said Skip Bayless on ESPN.com. "Think Manu at power forward. Scola attacks the glass the way Manu attacks the rim."

That makes it sound like Scola is a lock to play here next year. But is that accurate? Only we got the inside scoop from Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich.

"We haven't made the final decisions yet. If we did sign him, what he is, is a very, very heady player. He's probably the best forward in Europe right now," Pop told us. "He's more like Malik than he is like Robert Horry. Although, he's a decent mid-range shooter. What he is is a worker, a rebounder, great hands. He can score under the bucket at about 6'9". He's like Manu. He knows how to play. He knows how to win."

Okay, so nothing definite, but it sounds pretty good. Pop also says the Spurs want to try and trade up in the draft.

Posted by: Jay Reeves at July 12, 2007 11:26 PM

Jon,

If he stays in Spain, Morey's going to be the Timmy P of basketball. Why didn't they just draft a PF or big man instead of going for another notch on the depth chart in their deepest position of combo guard? That seemed to be a no brainer to draft Big Baby, Alando Tucker, or someone with size rather than add to the congestion. The only way out of this dilemma is to trade Rafer to someone for a big stiff.

Posted by: Will at July 12, 2007 11:27 PM

Wow what an amazing deal for the Rockets. I inquired about him awhile back before the draft. I am really suprised the Spurs didnt try to sign him. They are getting really long in the tooth at their big positions. Granted he is an undersized PF.

The deal does seem slightly lopsided for the Spurs unless they plan they did not think highly of him recently or are dumping Salary for no apparent reason. They do not have luxury tax concerns, right?

With this deal do you think the Rockets will still try to move Sura's contract with another PG to add depth to the power positions to a team over the luxury tax? What teams over luxury tax do you see as viable trading partners?

Posted by: Bryan at July 12, 2007 11:28 PM

So why would the spurs do this deal at all, do they really need to free up some cap space or do they actually think spanoulis might play for them?
And was it necessary for the rockets to acquire Butler as well, it seems like we're getting quite a bit roster fillers now with guys like Butler and Reed.

(Cost cutting for the Spurs. If the Rockets did not take Butler, the Spurs would not do it. That's how they cut costs -- Jonathan)

Posted by: mick at July 12, 2007 11:28 PM

I guess Morey knew what he was talking about there are 'better value players in trades than in free agency'. His first few moves as GM have been clever and economical. Now we need Francis for bench duty...

Posted by: Mitchell at July 12, 2007 11:30 PM

Jonathan,

Are you sure Luis Scola will play for the Rockets next season? Otherwise it means nothing for the Rockets.

(Morey sounded pretty certain. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: Daniel at July 12, 2007 11:37 PM

Where did this come from!?! Morey pulled this one out of a hat. I live in Ohio and I'm alway's on the web waiting for a smidget of Rockets news, and this is just the kind of news I been waiting for. I've been kind of wanting a player from oversea's to get in there and ruff it up a little and score, and we get on of the best. Kudos!! I've also been watching the Rockets summerleague, and once again I'm impressed! I look forward to scoring more point's than last year and more win's over the top team's! Go Rockets!!!!

Posted by: Chaney at July 12, 2007 11:40 PM

I'd ask for a few more details, like "what would the Spurs want with a so-far-ineffective player that doesn't want to come back to the US?" , but I'm guessing you're probably making an article about the entire situation now.

Anyway, this is fantastic news. Highlight of my day so far. I couldn't think of a better deal that could have realistically been made. Thanks for the heads-up Mr. Feigen.

Posted by: Butch at July 12, 2007 11:41 PM

I've not seen too much of Luis, but recently youtubed a few clips. What player does he remind you of in the NBA? and what role will he play with the rockets?

do you think v-span will play for the spurs?

Posted by: nathan at July 12, 2007 11:44 PM

Wow, I love the way Luis Scola plays.He dunks and blocks and is a very aggresive and high energy guy, love it. Good bye Cry baby Spanoulisa. Daryl Morey is proving quite the man for GM. Do you think we can still land Steve Francis and trade Rafer alston for another high energy guy.

Posted by: David Stoneking at July 12, 2007 11:47 PM

I have seen Scola play a couple of times and in 2004.He is a good player and fits in the offense(Argentina runs a movement and screen offense much like Adelmans). But I must admit he is not the answer at the 4....It is definately a smart move...but Scola is not going to take us to the next level....Why wouldn't webber want to play for his old coach? He knows the offense and had his best years under Adelman....I am still hoping that we land Francis next week.

Posted by: frank at July 12, 2007 11:51 PM

Scola now still has a contract which has a high buyout.that is 3 million bucks,but the league confines the highest buyout only half million.

could Morey deal with this stuff?

(They would likely structure the contract to allow Scola to pay the rest of the buyout from his first-year salary. -- Jonathan)

Posted by: Roe at July 13, 2007 12:03 AM

Jon,

Scola sounds terrific, praise for him seems universal, but I'm curious about his Euro League accomplishments. This guy has won two of the last three MVPs over there, but averages under 30 minutes a game (see link)? In fact, he's never averaged over 30 minutes a game.

Any thoughts on that? Is that a Euro League quirk, like that 6'7" all-world PG coming off the bench?

Thanks,

Michael

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=AJG

timvp

07-16-2007, 01:32 AM

objective

07-16-2007, 01:33 AM

In the Tim Duncan era, the only player the Spurs developed was Tony Parker. And even with him, the front office gave up on him at 21-years-old and wanted to bring in a replacement. They said Parker didn't practice hard enough. They said Parker didn't want it bad enough. They said Parker didn't have a good work ethic. Luckily, Jason Kidd didn't sign and the Spurs were forced to settle for Parker as their point guard.

Everyone other young player the Spurs have ever signed in the Tim Duncan era has been let go. Devin Brown? Bad work ethic. Stephen Jackson? Wasn't committed enough. Even Malik Rose who gave his heart and soul to the team was shipped out with his work ethic being questioned.

I don't have much disagreement, so I will only comment that the Rose example is a poor one, as when he was traded he was already 30 years old and in the midst of his eighth season as a Spur so he can't really qualify as a project/youngster that they gave up on.

Mr. Body

07-16-2007, 01:34 AM

The Spurs got clobbered by Houston. What a laughable deal.

leemajors

07-16-2007, 01:37 AM

i'm getting really sick of seeing timvp and mr body agree.

Mr. Body

07-16-2007, 01:41 AM

i'm getting really sick of seeing timvp and mr body agree.

He hasn't said anything wrong yet. :)

whottt

07-16-2007, 01:48 AM

A kinder gentler timvp? What happened to the one who wanted Jason Kidd?

I agree with what you are saying...but the fact is...Pop doesn't have patience with the old guys either...ask Oberto, or Barry....or Kerr.

BTW...you show me a list of guys that won 4 NBA Championships...and I'll show you a list of guys that were crappy about developing young players and had no patience with them.

Phil Jackson...Pat Riley....

They just don't have the time to do it...because they are expected to win year in and year out. And you and I will be the first ones to rip them when they fail or spend too much time on those young guys.

Larry Brown is generally considered the best basketball mind to step foot on the court...he hates young players. Or at least he does when he's on a championship contender.

Still...you gotta admit...Parker is a bad ass now.

whottt

07-16-2007, 01:49 AM

i'm getting really sick of seeing timvp and mr body agree.

timvp, MB, Mr.Body and ArgSpursFan...

GMTA.

timvp

07-16-2007, 01:53 AM

A kinder gentler timvp? What happened to the one who wanted Jason Kidd?

Huh? I was on the anti-Kidd bandwagon. I believed that Parker was the guy for the team.

Still...you gotta admit...Parker is a bad ass now.

As I said back then he would become.

whottt

07-16-2007, 01:55 AM

All coaches viscerally hate players who are young and who make big money...

I have never seen a coach that didn't hate players that made big money...no matter how good the player is...and even if the coach is the one that gave them the big money. They still hate them for it.

Pop...in addition to hating players that make big money...

Viscerally despises players that can't play D...it doesn't matter if they are trying or not...if they can't play D...Pop hates their guts.

Who does Pop have patience with? Who is his guy?

Duncan doesn't count...it's more a case of Duncan having patience with Pop.

It's Bowen...Bowen plays D like his life depends on it...and he's underpaid. That's Pop's wet dream, his idea of the perfect man...the toughest day Pop is ever going to have as a coach...is the day he has to cut Bowen. He may say it's Duncan...but Bowen is his boy.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:00 AM

Huh? I was on the anti-Kidd bandwagon. I believed that Parker was the guy for the team.

.

The most famous quote in ST history...(after get refuel)

"If you have a chance to get Jason Kidd, you do it, no questions asked."

I wonder who said that...

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:01 AM

if they can't play D...Pop hates their guts.

Which is why I've always wondered why the Spurs just don't target veterans who defend. Pop likes Vaughn more than Vaughn's wife does. Pop would love Udoka. Pop might even be able to deal with Artest because of defense.

That's why I'm for abolishing the idea of young players for the Spurs. If the Trailblazers wanted Mahinmi for Udoka, I'd go help pack Mahinmi's bags. Sanikidze for Posey? Where do I sign?

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:02 AM

The most famous quote in ST history...(after get refuel)

"If you have a chance to get Jason Kidd, you do it, no questions asked."

I wonder who said that...

Link?

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:14 AM

Which is why I've always wondered why the Spurs just don't target veterans who defend. Pop likes Vaughn more than Vaughn's wife does. Pop would love Udoka. Pop might even be able to deal with Artest because of defense.

Speaking of Artest as it relates to Bowen...who is the only player you have ever seen Pop go after in the media in defense of one of his players?

He's always taken the high road except one time...

And that was when the Pacers were sending out those flyers jocking Artest for DPOY...Pop was all over that shit and Artest. He was sneering and full of scorn over it...It's the only time I've seen him dis the ability of an opposing player publicly. He's never done it for Duncan or Drob not even AJ...he gives them credit..but Bowen is the only guy I've seen him go after another player in defense of...Pop even went after the NBA when they were getting on Bowen earlier in the year.

I don't think Pop is an Artest fan...just a hunch. Artest wastes his ability...and he makes a lot of money.

That's not refuting anything you said...just a side note.

That's why I'm for abolishing the idea of young players for the Spurs. If the Trailblazers wanted Mahinmi for Udoka, I'd go help pack Mahinmi's bags. Sanikidze for Posey? Where do I sign?

The mindset of a coach...get talent first, anyway you can, especially if it is sought after by other good teams...then decide if you like it or not. Covet first, even overpay first...ask questions later.

That's exactly what he does...

That's why he gave Malik the contract he hated him for.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:18 AM

Link?

You gotta be freaking kidding me?

Chatroom...draft night, 2003.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:27 AM

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:29 AM

And who was the one player in Pop's history that he went with over Bowen for defensive purposes? Devin Brown. Before Devin was run out of town for not having the maturity of a 37-year-old Jerome Kersey, of course.

Are you talking about Dirk?

Pop never sticks with one guy on Dirk...

Devin was an entirely different thing...more like Tony. Like a son or something.

Bowen's different...he's Pop's soulmate.

You watch...Bowen is the guy that will still be here playing a big role past his time, without Pop trying to first get rid of him.

Not even Drob got that...

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:30 AM

You gotta be freaking kidding me?

Chatroom...draft night, 2003.

You are mixing up my Michael Finley quote. That's what I said about Finley ... even though Devin should have been kept, too.

I was one of the original anti-Kidd activists. Perhaps I said something like "if Kidd wants to talk, you listen to what he has to say" in a backwoods chatroom when I was drunk but I never advocated adding him in place of Parker.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:32 AM

Are you talking about Dirk?

Pop never sticks with one guy on Dirk...

Devin was an entirely different thing...more like Tony. Like a son or something.

Bowen's different...he's Pop's soulmate.

I'm talking about Devin on Kobe in the .4 game.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:34 AM

I'm talking about Devin on Kobe in the .4 game.

Different...the Lakers were beating the crap out of Bowen's 190lb body on picks. That was a physical thing...

If you want to say that...you can say Hedo too...Hedo's year here here Pop went with him on LeBRon and Artest right off the bat.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:36 AM

You are mixing up my Michael Finley quote. That's what I said about Finley ... even though Devin should have been kept, too.

I was one of the original anti-Kidd activists. Perhaps I said something like "if Kidd wants to talk, you listen to what he has to say" in a backwoods chatroom when I was drunk but I never advocated adding him in place of Parker.

Dude...how long have I been saying if you have a chance to draft a guy named Greek Baby Shaq you do it...no questions asked...I stole that quote from you....in chat, that night.

I don't know you were in favor of dumping Parker for him...but I am pretty damn sure you wanted him.

You seem to be pretty fond of him in fantasy leagues too.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:43 AM

Dude...how long have I been saying if you have a chance to draft a guy named Greek Baby Shaq you do it...no questions asked...I stole that quote from you....in chat, that night.

I don't know you were in favor of dumping Parker for him...but I am pretty damn sure you wanted him.

You seem to be pretty fond of him in fantasy leagues too.

I posted for two years how I didn't want Kidd. I wouldn't go into a chatroom and say differently unless I was drunk or joking or both.

Wait, did you even post here in 2003? I thought you came over after getting into an Horry argument in 2004.

Yeah, you did. Tried to play timvp like he crazy, shii--i-iii-i-i--iiyet.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:46 AM

um...we signed Horry in the summer of 03...the same year we passed on Greek Baby Shaq, and that Polish ddude you all wanted, and gave Leandro Barbosa away and Jason Kidd said no to SA.

It was the first draft chat in FSP history...and you wound me.

And I was over here before then...while the playoffs were still on.

You must be drunk now...

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:48 AM

um...we signed Horry in the summer of 03...the same year we passed on Greek Baby Shaq, Leandro Barbosa and Jason Kidd said no to SA.

It was the first chat in FSP history...and you wound me.

Free agency is after the draft. The 2003 draft was June 28th. Horry was signed July 24th. You came to FSP after an argument about the signing of Horry.

Or at least that's what you've always claimed.

Right?

Kori Ellis

07-16-2007, 02:48 AM

You two argue with each other too much.

Is timvp subbing for ChumpDumper?

Or are you two having an affair?

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:49 AM

Whatever happened to ChumpDumper?

Kori Ellis

07-16-2007, 02:50 AM

Whatever happened to ChumpDumper?

Chump went to Vegas and hasn't return yet. Hopefully we get a full ChumpDumper report this week.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:50 AM

You must be drunk now...

timvp doesn't drink and use the computer anymore. I've learned my lesson.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:51 AM

Free agency is after the draft. The 2003 draft was June 28th. Horry was signed July 24th. You came to FSP after an argument about the signing of Horry.

Or at least that's what you've always claimed.

Right?

Um...the thread was made at SR before the playoffs were even over....before FA started etc.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:53 AM

You two argue with each other too much.

Is timvp subbing for ChumpDumper?

Or are you two having an affair?

Was he or was he not in favor of Kidd to SA?

I suppose it could have been someone else that said that...MB for certain was pro kidd.

Luckily I moved all the Kidd threads into the classic forum during my time as mod...I'll have to browse.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:53 AM

Um...the thread was made at SR before the playoffs were even over....before FA started etc.

So SR started a thread about signing Horry during the 2003 playoffs? Damn, they are ahead of the curve.

Kori Ellis

07-16-2007, 02:56 AM

Was he or was he not in favor of Kidd to SA?

I suppose it could have been someone else that said that...MB for certain was pro kidd.

Luckily I moved all the Kidd threads into the classic forum during my time as mod...I'll have to browse.

I am guessing that LJ said something like, "I understand from the front office point of view that if you have a chance to look at Jason Kidd, you look at Jason Kidd."

See, back then he was still sucking up to the front office so he agreed with their every move. :smokin

But he always thought Tony would be very good from way back in the day, so he never really was an advocate of bringing in Kidd (and ruining Tony here).

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:57 AM

So SR started a thread about signing Horry during the 2003 playoffs? Damn, they are ahead of the curve.

Yeah....it was started before the end of the playoffs, after the Laker series and people were speculating on if the Lakers were going to bring him back...I'd link to it...but it got deleted. I was a fulltime FSP'er by draft night.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:57 AM

The two topics that I ever remember Ghost and MB agreeing on where I was on the other side of the fence was Kidd To SA and Free Stephen Jackson. I didn't want Kidd and I thought Stephen Jackson played too wildly too ever be a championship caliber player.

Kidd worked out well for me. Ghost and MB owned 95% of the forum on the Free Stephen Jackson take.

whottt

07-16-2007, 02:59 AM

Remember how GW used to bash the FO? And get owned in the process...I am guessing you don't ;)

timvp

07-16-2007, 03:01 AM

But he always thought Tony would be very good from way back in the day, so he never really was an advocate of bringing in Kidd (and ruining Tony here).

timvp liked Parker since the 2000 Nike Hoops Summit. That was the first time I saw him. I was rooting hard for the Spurs to draft him in 2001. I thought he'd give the Spurs the speed they'd need to transition from an old team to a more athletic team.

I didn't know, however, that'd he'd be a three-time champion, a two-time all-star and have a Finals MVP by the age of 25.

:wow

T Park

07-16-2007, 03:04 AM

I thought Stephen Jackson played too wildly too ever be a championship caliber player.

i think alot of us thought that in the spring of 02.

Especially after that road game in Miami where he was absolutely terrible.

timvp

07-16-2007, 03:06 AM

i think alot of us thought that in the spring of 02.

Especially after that road game in Miami where he was absolutely terrible.

MB and Ghost were the two most steadfast supporters of SJax. SJax was horrible as a Spur until that one Lakers game where he dropped eight threes or whatever that was. I was ready to pull a whottt and give up on the young talent that was SJax around the late preseason of 2002.

drmvp

07-16-2007, 03:13 AM

You two argue with each other too much.

Is timvp subbing for ChumpDumper?

Or are you two having an affair?

Their kiss-and-make-up after the break-up cyber-sex is gonna rock.

T Park

07-16-2007, 03:14 AM

SJax was horrible as a Spur until that one Lakers game where he dropped eight threes or whatever that was

That was a great night.

I think I remember a certain poster winning a big screen that night at that game as well :smokin

whottt

07-16-2007, 03:40 AM

MB and Ghost were the two most steadfast supporters of SJax. SJax was horrible as a Spur until that one Lakers game where he dropped eight threes or whatever that was. I was ready to pull a whottt and give up on the young talent that was SJax around the late preseason of 2002.

Busted:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41997&postcount=170

whottt's own genius stance on the Kidd issue:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2901

Proof that whottt was already a member of FSP full time prior to the end of the finals:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2757

And BTW, You guys have always jobbed me on my join date...if you look at my EZ board join date you will see it preceded the existence of FSP. And whott wasn't my first nic I used either...I used TheGOAT, Anderson'sshoulder, DROB Fan ...a bunch of others from 98 on, I never used them more than once or twice though, I'd sign up say something and then forget the passowrd.

...I was at the board at MYSA years and years ago, I don;t know if it was SR or not...but it was the first non usenet MB for the Spurs I remember...and the WOAI board. I didn't start using whottt until after the Jim Rome boards died. But basically...I wasn't much of a poster, because the quality of posts were so good, I didn't have to post. I also didn't really remember any speciffic posters other than GW and at WOAI F7 and all of those Conan trolls......I just started posting regularly because Dusty forced us to sign up and I had to get in on the Kidd debate. Prior to that I was mainly concerned with smacking Lakerfans at Jim Rome and trolling Wrestling groups on the Usenet.

Incidentally...that douche bag Rocketfan named KingMalakai in that DRob thread just made a reapparance for the first time since 03 in one of these Scola threads.

whottt

07-16-2007, 03:41 AM

To be fair...I did read some of the others...and you were basically an anti-kidd...

Must have been baselinebum who said it, "you do it(sign Kidd), no questions asked".....he's pretty good with a phrase as well..

timvp

07-16-2007, 03:52 AM

Busted:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41997&postcount=170

Parker will eventually be better than Kidd. I wouldn't be surprised if that time is only 3 or 4 years away.

Do the Spurs have time to wait on that? I think they do because he's already a proven winner.

Busted?

How much more right could a person have been on the Parker versus Kidd subject?

I rationalized the acquisition just like I attempted to rationalize the Rockets trade. It doesn't mean I was for either.

timvp

07-16-2007, 03:53 AM

To be fair...I did read some of the others...and you were basically an anti-kidd...

Good. I almost had to go classic thread diving.

whottt

07-16-2007, 04:03 AM

I was ready to pull a whottt and give up on the young talent that was SJax around the late preseason of 2002.

How in the hell did I give up on young talent? I am pulling for Mahinmi...

And how hard was it to want Jack when the alternative was Smitty?

Booharv

07-16-2007, 07:53 AM

We'll see if they actually bring in Udoka, if Mahinmi even makes it to the league, and if Splitter is a "younger, taller, better Scola."

No one will know if this was a good trade for the Spurs for quite a while.

Don't agree with that--even if every thing he said works out, trading both of thos players for a second round pick and cash is like the NBA version of leaving them on the curb for trash pickup.

Nathan Explosion

07-16-2007, 09:20 AM

Everyone keeps saying to salary dump Beno and Barry and move on. You all make it seem like it's that simple to just get rid of those players. If money was the motivation, cutting them won't do you any good. And you'd have to assume that teams wanted them for a trade to happen, which apparently no one did.

Has anyone actually considered that if the Spurs didn't make this move, there would be no trade to make because no other deals would pop up? Not every Spur is a tradeable asset. To me it appears the Spurs made the only deal they could make because no one else wanted to make it.

As far as questioning the Spurs moves and saying that they've only made two good moves, Parker and Gino, I think you're forgetting other contributers to title teams.

There's Stephen Jackson, on the cusp of being out of the league, getting Steve Kerr back, signing Claxton. That's three players who helped in a huge way in 03. Oh, and don't forget some defensive specialist that they signed that no one really applauded at the time, you know Bruce Bowen.

In 05 they fleeced the Knicks for Nazr, who helped the Spurs win the 05 title. Oh, and they picked up some guy the year before who hit some big shots in 05. Have you heard of Robert Horry? Barry was big against the Suns if I'm not mistaken.

This past year, signing Vaughn was a good deal because it provided veteran leadership behind Parker, and while his production doesn't show up in a boxscore, the team ran smoothly with him on the floor, something that didn't always happen with Barry. Oh, and of course, signing Finley the year before was nice too.

And the most overlooked signing that everyone forgets, but had the biggest impact on the Spurs this year, getting Chip Englland. Does Parker come close to sniffing the Finals MVP trophy without the guy?

This FO has put pieces around Duncan that no one seems to want, yet has now provided the team 3 titles in 5 years.

Again, show a little respect for what they're doing. Don't assume you actually know more than them, or what deals can be made, because you don't have the inside info they do.

You can gripe about a trade while still respecting that fact. The thing is, most of you all assume there was a lot more to be made by trading Scola and Butler and a better way to do things, when the fact may be that this really was the only way.

Have any of you all ever considered that for even a moment?

Bruno

07-16-2007, 09:29 AM

My first reaction about this trade was that it was a bad trade.
The more I think as it, the less I dislike it.
I now think that it's a margial trade that won't change something.
Spurs had to trade Butler and Scola, they don't get a great return for them but it's not abig deal : Butler sucks and Scola won't be better than most of MLE bigmen Houston could have signed with the MLE.

Oh, Gee!!

07-16-2007, 09:33 AM

Scola will probably never play in the NBA, so it's not a bad move by the Spurs

Mr. Peabody

07-16-2007, 09:42 AM

The thing I don't think people consider is that we have Ginobili and Oberto on this team. Don't you think that if these two really felt that Scola was a player that could really help the Spurs, they could have convinced management to sign him?

Oh, Gee!!

07-16-2007, 09:43 AM

they probably hate him

nkdlunch

07-16-2007, 09:44 AM

fucking unreal to let scola go for nothing!!!!!

Spurs office will regret this

whottt

07-16-2007, 09:52 AM

they probably hate him

No...the Spurs asked Manu who's better Scola or Oberto...Manu said said Scola, so the Spurs signed Oberto.

Oh, Gee!!

07-16-2007, 10:44 AM

fucking unreal to let scola go for nothing!!!!!

Spurs office will regret this

he woulda never played for the spurs anyhow

SMSpur

07-16-2007, 10:59 AM

Thinking about it more, I've concluded two things:

1) The Spurs could have gotten a first round pick for Scola straight up. Danny Ferry REALLY wanted him. You don't think he'd give up a future first rounder? Of course he would. But $6M > late first rounder ... according to Holt's pocket books.

You are dilusional if you actually think the Spurs could ahve gotten a first round DP for Scola. The spurs have had a lot of offers for Scola as far back as last year even. They were all offering a 2nd round DP. When the Spurs said make it a 1st and you have a deal, EVERY single one of them said no thanks. What makes you think that this year is any different. Ferry has REALLY wanted Scola since he went to Cleveland. But is NOT willing to give up a 1st round DP for him. Heck, not only was he not willing to give up a 1st for him, he wasn't willing to take on both Scola AND Butler for a 2nd round DP.

2) Butler had trade value. In that three-team trade with the Cavs and Kings, Butler was going to the Kings. To make that work, the Spurs had to be getting something back in the deal. The Spurs had to have interest on a player on either the Cavs or Kings. And it's not an accident that after the Kings didn't get Butler, they went out and signed a center.

You are the only one that feels that Butler had value, Butler had so much VALUE that when the Danny Ferry was offered Scola AND Butler for the 2nd round DP, he said no thanks, even though he DESPERATELY wanted Scola. The three way trade with the Cavs and Kings feel apart BECAUSE of Butler.

Timvp, sure in your deluded world where Butler had real trade value, and in a world where Scola could easily have been traded for a first round DP then yes the trade with Houston is a terrible trade. BUT if you get back into reality, the best the Spurs were going to get from ANYONE for Scola was a second round DP. And in reality Butler has ZERO trade value. So instead of trading Scola to Cleveland or Chicago for a #2 and having to keep Butler, the Spurs were able to ship Scola to Houston for a #2 DP, AND also manage to get rid of Butler's salary in the process.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:09 PM

But is NOT willing to give up a 1st round DP for him. Link? Ferry was creaming for Scola. You think it's impossible that he offered a first?

Heck, not only was he not willing to give up a 1st for him, he wasn't willing to take on both Scola AND Butler for a 2nd round DP.He didn't do that trade because he couldn't. He'd have to send salary back.

If you don't know how NBA trades work, you shouldn't be preaching.

You are the only one that feels that Butler had value, Butler had so much VALUE that when the Danny Ferry was offered Scola AND Butler for the 2nd round DP, he said no thanks, even though he DESPERATELY wanted Scola. He declined because he couldn't do the trade. Educate yourself before you try to educate others.

Thanks.

The three way trade with the Cavs and Kings feel apart BECAUSE of Butler.Link?

So far all you've proven is a pretty good ability to make things up.

hater

07-16-2007, 02:16 PM

my theory is that Tony found a pic of shirtless Scola in Eva's purse.

yavozerb

07-16-2007, 02:25 PM

Its funny to see everyone have an inside scoop of why or why not this trade should have happened? I see this as a price we all must pay to be Spurs fans since the organization is so private in business transactions. Yes, it would have been great to have scola play as a spur, but, it will also be great to have extra roster spots available to bring over young foriegn players to develop in the spurs system. Scola and Butler are gone and yes it looks terrible now, but in all honesty this a trade that needs to brought up again in 2-3 yrs to see the progression of the players invovled..

Dartherus

07-16-2007, 02:25 PM

You are dilusional if you actually think the Spurs could ahve gotten a first round DP for Scola. The spurs have had a lot of offers for Scola as far back as last year even. They were all offering a 2nd round DP. When the Spurs said make it a 1st and you have a deal, EVERY single one of them said no thanks. What makes you think that this year is any different. Ferry has REALLY wanted Scola since he went to Cleveland. But is NOT willing to give up a 1st round DP for him. Heck, not only was he not willing to give up a 1st for him, he wasn't willing to take on both Scola AND Butler for a 2nd round DP.

You are the only one that feels that Butler had value, Butler had so much VALUE that when the Danny Ferry was offered Scola AND Butler for the 2nd round DP, he said no thanks, even though he DESPERATELY wanted Scola. The three way trade with the Cavs and Kings feel apart BECAUSE of Butler.

Timvp, sure in your deluded world where Butler had real trade value, and in a world where Scola could easily have been traded for a first round DP then yes the trade with Houston is a terrible trade. BUT if you get back into reality, the best the Spurs were going to get from ANYONE for Scola was a second round DP. And in reality Butler has ZERO trade value. So instead of trading Scola to Cleveland or Chicago for a #2 and having to keep Butler, the Spurs were able to ship Scola to Houston for a #2 DP, AND also manage to get rid of Butler's salary in the process.
SMS is right, Butler trade value was nothing, and perhaps it was even negative....Spurs had been offering him and even for free, no other team took him, so in fact, talking strictly about trade values, Butler was a burden put Houston had to take, in order to get Scola.

Mr. Body

07-16-2007, 02:48 PM

Butler's value was hardly nothing or worse than nothing.

timvp

07-16-2007, 02:55 PM

SMS is right, Butler trade value was nothing, and perhaps it was even negative....Spurs had been offering him and even for free, no other team took him, so in fact, talking strictly about trade values, Butler was a burden put Houston had to take, in order to get Scola.Butler could have been traded. The problem is teams that wanted him had to give something back due to salary cap rules.

The Spurs didn't want anything back.

wildchild

07-16-2007, 03:15 PM

No...the Spurs asked Manu who's better Scola or Oberto...Manu said said Scola, so the Spurs signed Oberto.

I don´t sure. :rolleyes
I think Scola's more athletic than Oberto, but it doesn't a make him a smart player. Oberto's IQ basketball higher than Scola.

However, The Rockets don't see reason to be worried.
Scola/Butler or anybody seems smarts compared with Yao in the paint. :lol :lol :lol

Mr. Body

07-16-2007, 03:16 PM

Scola/Butler or anybody seems smarts compared with Yao in the paint. :lol :lol :lol

:wtf

wildchild

07-16-2007, 03:31 PM

:wtf

:rolleyes

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-16-2007, 03:33 PM

pad300

07-16-2007, 05:43 PM

I literally haven't seen a guy who was drafted that I'd take Williams over right now.

Let me try to think of one . . .

Okay, I'd draft Marcus Williams over Jared Jordan. Jordan has looked horrible when I watched him. He's unathletic compared to WNBA players. He can't get his shot off versus anyone and isn't even that outstanding of a passer.

So that's one person I'd take Williams over. I'm trying to think of a second one . . .

Just to cheer you up, some candidates -
Giorgios Printezis, Milan Rakovic, Brad Newley

However, I would seriously think about taking Jordan off of your list. Jordan has shown he can be competent with the ball and run a team, Assist per game: 4.8 A/TO: 3.0 MPG 24. He may be a lousy athlete, but he does know how to play the game...

BIG z

07-17-2007, 01:06 AM

The only truth to this deal was that the spurs realized that they were paying Jacki Butler alot money for nothinh and the only way to get rid of him was to put Scola in the deal to get rid of his contract, they already new that the Greek dude didn't wanna play in the Nba and with cash consideration and saving alot of money the spurs might just buy out Tiago Splitter's Eurpean Contract.