Re: Kobe, Ray Allen can say, " I told you so!"

[LakeShow]

Thursday, October 14, 2004

Sonics' Allen offers appraisal of Bryant in post-Shaq/Phil era

By DANNY O'NEIL
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

PORTLAND -- Ray Allen was suited up for the Sonics' preseason game against the Trail Blazers last night. He just wasn't in uniform, instead watching in a sports jacket as he sat out the game.

Allen suffered from a migraine headache and gastrointestinal disorder.

Because of the illness, Allen wasn't around to answer questions after the Sonics beat the Lakers 87-80 on Tuesday, but he was asked for a day-after assessment of Kobe Bryant's performance in his first game after Shaquille O'Neal was traded and coach Phil Jackson retired.

"He's going to be very selfish," Allen said of Bryant, who scored 15 of his team's first 20 points and had 35 points in Tuesday's loss. "And he feels like he needs to show this league and the people in this country that he is better without Shaq. He can win championships without Shaq. So offensively, he's going to jump out and say, 'I can average 30 points. I can still carry the load on this team.'

"I think the point production is not going to be so much what people are going to look at because (Tracy) McGrady did it in Orlando, Allen (Iverson) did it in Philly. Can you win a championship? I think that's the question. Carrying guys on your back and making everybody better."

Can Bryant do that?

"He has the talent, he can do it," Allen said. "But is his attitude going to allow him to take a back seat and let Lamar Odom shine and let Caron Butler have his nights and bring those big guys along with him?"

Allen said Bryant's ability and willingness to incorporate others will be the gauge for the Lakers' success. Bryant was re-signed for seven years at more than $130 million this summer.

"If Kobe doesn't see he needs two and a half good players to be a legitimate playoff contender or win a championship in about a year or two he'll be calling out to Jerry Buss that 'We need some help in here,' or 'Trade me,' " Allen said. "And we'll all be saying, 'I told you so,' when he says that."

Butler, who like Allen attended UConn, is in his third year in the league.

"His successes now is going to be based on if Kobe allows him to eat," Allen said of Butler. "If Kobe allows him to sit at the dinner table with him."

Allen was asked about the personal part of his game against Bryant. At different times, Bryant bumped into Allen and talked trash. After blocking a fast-break layin attempt by Allen, Bryant stared down at Allen, who had fallen to the floor, allowing Luke Ridnour to grab the loose ball and pass to Rashard Lewis for a dunk.

"I think he talks because he feels like he has to talk," Allen said. "He's out there playing, and if he does something good I feel like he needs to pat himself on the back because to me, it seems like he's isolated out there. As much as it's five-on-five, I don't see much camaraderie going on out there with his teammates."

Allen and Bryant were drafted the same year, 1996. Allen said that's one reason he thinks Bryant tries to turn any head-to-head meeting into a one-on-one battle. Bryant scored 15 of his team's 20 points in the first quarter and finished with 35. Allen scored 18 of his team-high 25 points in the second half.

"He thinks -- in his mind -- that he's going to shoot and try to show me up at any point in time on the floor," Allen said. "But his mentality and mine are different. I've got to do what it takes to help the team win."

One exchange captured what Allen was talking about. In the third quarter, Bryant made a 3-pointer over Allen and on Seattle's ensuing possession Allen made a 3-pointer over Bryant. Bryant answered with a 3-pointer, bumped into Allen at halfcourt and started talking.

"It was typical of the way he approaches the game and the way I approach it," Allen said. "I know it was set up for me to take that shot, no matter what situation I was in because that's what he did. And I wasn't going to fall into that trap because we were winning and he put himself in the situation where he has to come from behind."

P-I reporter Danny O'Neil can be reached at 206-448-8209 or dannyo'[email protected]

[Findog]

Kobe's got some massive insecurity issues despite being the best guard/wing in the game. There's a passage in Paul Shirley's book where he writes about going to training camp with the Lakers. During a scrimmage, Kobe blocked his shot so hard that Shirley fell to the floor and Kobe was standing over him and barked "Don't ever bring that weak shit in here, bitch!"

God, 3 championships, he's the best player in the game, and he feels the need to talk smack to a non-roster invitee?

[gaKNOW!blee]

Kobe's got some massive insecurity issues despite being the best guard/wing in the game. There's a passage in Paul Shirley's book where he writes about going to training camp with the Lakers. During a scrimmage, Kobe blocked his shot so hard that Shirley fell to the floor and Kobe was standing over him and barked "Don't ever bring that weak shit in here, bitch!"

God, 3 championships, he's the best player in the game, and he feels the need to talk smack to a non-roster invitee?
MJ was not always exactly humble either.

[Findog]

MJ was not always exactly humble either.

Yeah, he could be a jerk too.

[monosylab1k]

MJ was not always exactly humble either.
MJ has six rings, and he didn't have to piggyback on a top-5 all time Center to get any of them.

[DarkReign]

calling scottie pippen a top-5 anything is a gross overstatement of his abilities. pippen without jordan is a forgotten man who never accomplishes anything and is probably out of the league within 5 years.

Define ignorance.

[monosylab1k]

yet he had a top five small forward who was perhaps the most versatile defender ever
first off, pippen ain't a top 5 small forward. not by a fuckin longshot.

second, top 5 center >>>>>>>>>> top 5 small forward. it's pretty comical to even compare the two like they have equal footing. although pippen isn't a top 5 small forward anyways.

third, pippen MIGHT be a top 5 defender. and he might not. his defense fed off of jordan's defense, and vice versa. pippen has never been a singular shut-down defender like bowen. as soon as he didn't have jordan around his defense looked quite a bit more ordinary.

[Pero]

"But his mentality and mine are different. I've got to do what it takes to help the team win."

Meaning Allen is more of a whiner.
Kobe has 3 rings, how many does Allen have?



MJ has six rings, and he didn't have to piggyback on a top-5 all time Center to get any of them.

Umm, Shaq would have ZERO rings if he hadn`t played with Kobe and Wade.

[monosylab1k]

Umm, Shaq would have ZERO rings if he hadn`t played with Kobe and Wade.
hilarious

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

They both suck anyways...

[Pero]

Oh really? Like the Mavs loss in the first round against the Warriors? Or like the Mavs loss against the Heat where Wade destroyed them? Hilarious but true. If you had Kobe on your team, I`m sure none of this would happen. But then you would say, oh sure, Kobe piggybacked on the greatest European player ever in the NBA.

And it IS really funny that Allen is talking about what it takes to win a championship when he won none.

[monosylab1k]

Oh really? Like the Mavs loss in the first round against the Warriors? Or like the Mavs loss against the Heat where Wade destroyed them? Hilarious but true. If you had Kobe on your team, I`m sure none of this would happen. But then you would say, oh sure, Kobe piggybacked on the greatest European player ever in the NBA.

And it IS really funny that Allen is talking about what it takes to win a championship when he won none.
the fuck?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Oh really? Like the Mavs loss in the first round against the Warriors? Or like the Mavs loss against the Heat where Wade destroyed them? Hilarious but true. If you had Kobe on your team, I`m sure none of this would happen. But then you would say, oh sure, Kobe piggybacked on the greatest European player ever in the NBA.

And it IS really funny that Allen is talking about what it takes to win a championship when he won none.
:wtf

[Pero]

Meh, nevermind... :lol

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Okay.

[Findog]

:wtf

Is there an "incoherent" icon?

[nkdlunch]

kobe needs a team of psychiatrists

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Is there an "incoherent" icon?
I just don't think he knows what's going on in this topic.

[peskypesky]

kobe needs a team of psychiatrists

What Kobe needed was for Shaq to slap the bitch outta him a few years back.

:dizzy

[BacktoBasics]

I didn't even know Kobe won rings.

[LakeShow]

Ray allen is the biggest crybaby in the league but he was right on with his appraisal of Kobe.

I think Kobe is the best player in the league. No one works harder than he and I would not pick any player in the league over him at this point, but we have created a monster. Kobe > NBA!

I always had a hunch that the league was picking on him last season for some other reason than what was being reported and I found the suspension for hitting Ginobili a little over the top for a superstar. I now believe that it was more about the league and Stern making a statement to kobe that he will not be bigger than the NBA.(which i still believe was wrong) Suspending him for the Knick game cost kobe millions and the witch hunt did a lot to affect his season last year.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Mr. Allen has the last laugh and ye who laughs last, laughs best.

[cornbread]

Kobe's got some massive insecurity issues despite being the best guard/wing in the game. There's a passage in Paul Shirley's book where he writes about going to training camp with the Lakers. During a scrimmage, Kobe blocked his shot so hard that Shirley fell to the floor and Kobe was standing over him and barked "Don't ever bring that weak shit in here, bitch!"

God, 3 championships, he's the best player in the game, and he feels the need to talk smack to a non-roster invitee?
Typical Paul Shirley bullshit. Gets his shot sent by a guy six inches shorter than him, never forgets it, and then uses it as an opportunity to make the other guy look like the bad guy in his book. I would read more of his "work" if it was less about what's wrong with the succesful players in the league and more about why he, Paul Shirley that is, sucks so much at basketball.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Typical Paul Shirley bullshit. Gets his shot sent by a guy six inches shorter than him, never forgets it, and then uses it as an opportunity to make the other guy look like the bad guy in his book. I would read more of his "work" if it was less about what's wrong with the succesful players in the league and more about why he, Paul Shirley that is, sucks so much at basketball.
He could try to tackle that subject but most publishers shy away from publishing 1200 page books.

And Ray Allen, as well as 99% of the people who were paying attention in 2004, were right.

[Findog]

Typical Paul Shirley bullshit. Gets his shot sent by a guy six inches shorter than him, never forgets it, and then uses it as an opportunity to make the other guy look like the bad guy in his book. I would read more of his "work" if it was less about what's wrong with the succesful players in the league and more about why he, Paul Shirley that is, sucks so much at basketball.

The point is, Kobe is one of the League's alpha dogs. I could understand it if some scrub trying to make the team picked a fight with him, but Kobe is MASSIVELY insecure. Say what you want about Shirley, but if the incident happened the way Shirley says it did, Kobe is a d-bag.

[TheNextGen]

Maybe Shirley shouldnt take that weakshit in there..hence why he is writing books instead of playing in the NBA

[cornbread]

The point is, Kobe is one of the League's alpha dogs. I could understand it if some scrub trying to make the team picked a fight with him, but Kobe is MASSIVELY insecure. Say what you want about Shirley, but if the incident happened the way Shirley says it did, Kobe is a d-bag.
I agree with the bolded 100%.

I just find it more striking that some scrub who couldn't make it in the NBA is trying to cash in on the story by going after one of the games best players. It seems like every time I hear Shirley talk or read something of his, he's attacking those who are succesful or making excuses for why they're succesful. That's why I take this story with a grain of salt. It just seems like more sour grapes from the guy who didn't get picked.

[greens]

Yeah, he could be a jerk too.


I've always been a fan of MJ since I was little...my brother was huge Bulls fan. But I don't know much about his personality. Recently, I've read posts about how rude he was to his teammates...

Is that true? What kind of personality off the court did MJ have?

Just curious...

(p.s. Before everyone expresses their shock of me not knowing what is obvious to others, I'm a girl...therefore, I don't know too much about specific players...lol. So be nice.)

[TheNextGen]

I've always been a fan of MJ since I was little...my brother was huge Bulls fan. But I don't know much about his personality. Recently, I've read posts about how rude he was to his teammates...

Is that true? What kind of personality off the court did MJ have?

Just curious...

(p.s. Before everyone expresses their shock of me not knowing what is obvious to others, I'm a girl...therefore, I don't know too much about specific players...lol. So be nice.)

all great ones are jerks...kobe, kj, tyson, bonds etc

[Dalhoop]

Kobe is a victum of his own actions.

"I think he talks because he feels like he has to talk," Allen said. "He's out there playing, and if he does something good I feel like he needs to pat himself on the back because to me, it seems like he's isolated out there. As much as it's five-on-five, I don't see much camaraderie going on out there with his teammates."

I read that and said to myself, he brought that on himself. When he got caught a few years ago, his first exuse was "Shaq does it all the time".

The first thing he did when he got caught cheating was to throw a teammate under the bus. There are some things that guys can get over, this is not one of them. That is a MAJOR VIOLATION of the guy code.

He needs teammates to be successful, the media are telling him he needs to teammates, but the truth is he doesn't care about his teammates and when his chips are down he has no problem throwing one of them under the bus after airing their dirty laundry, they all know this.

Kobe has brought this on himself. I feel absolutly nothing for him, he could die and I wouldn't care, he could win Titals and I would not care. I am a Laker fan having grown up in Newport beach during the Showtime days, but right now I can not watch the Lakers, they made the wrong choice ... Every one knew it was the wrong choice and did it anyway ...
Its a sore spot with me .. Sorry.

[TheNextGen]

Kobe is a victum of his own actions.

"I think he talks because he feels like he has to talk," Allen said. "He's out there playing, and if he does something good I feel like he needs to pat himself on the back because to me, it seems like he's isolated out there. As much as it's five-on-five, I don't see much camaraderie going on out there with his teammates."

I read that and said to myself, he brought that on himself. When he got caught a few years ago, his first exuse was "Shaq does it all the time".

The first thing he did when he got caught cheating was to throw a teammate under the bus. There are some things that guys can get over, this is not one of them. That is a MAJOR VIOLATION of the guy code.

He needs teammates to be successful, the media are telling him he needs to teammates, but the truth is he doesn't care about his teammates and when his chips are down he has no problem throwing one of them under the bus after airing their dirty laundry, they all know this.

Kobe has brought this on himself. I feel absolutly nothing for him, he could die and I wouldn't care, he could win Titals and I would not care. I am a Laker fan having grown up in Newport beach during the Showtime days, but right now I can not watch the Lakers, they made the wrong choice ... Every one knew it was the wrong choice and did it anyway ...
Its a sore spot with me .. Sorry.

I guess you forgot the part that they lost 2 years in a row before they traded Shaq. well..everyone forgot that part for some reason. Lakers fans forget that they NEEDED to make a change cuz they were failing miserably and when contracts are coming to end, decisions needed to be made. Was keeping Kobe the right chioce..i think so

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I've always been a fan of MJ since I was little...my brother was huge Bulls fan. But I don't know much about his personality. Recently, I've read posts about how rude he was to his teammates...

Is that true? What kind of personality off the court did MJ have?

Just curious...

(p.s. Before everyone expresses their shock of me not knowing what is obvious to others, I'm a girl...therefore, I don't know too much about specific players...lol. So be nice.)
I never really knew much about him off the court until I started hanging around this board a bit. Just from what I've read (mostly from here) he's cheated on his wife, had a major gambling problem (a few here have hinted that might have been connected to his father's death), and punched Steve Kerr. Also on ESPN Classic's "Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jerry Kraus for the Bulls Downfall" they talked about how much of a dick MJ was to Kraus and basically turned the team against the management to make it 'his' team.

Also, he drafted Kwame Brown.

[Dalhoop]

a faker then a _allas fan?

No, a Laker fan then a Dallas fan. You should learn to spell.

Unless your trying to say that the Showtime Lakers were "fakers" or that the Mavs, dispite their Coach and improved defensive play that puts them in the 10 in the league actually plays no defense. Was that what you were trying to say?

I am also a fan of the Card's, Blue's and Ram's ... of all my fav teams, I think that only the Blues warrent some :oops thoughts

[J.T.]

You can be an asshole when you win six rings.

You have less leverage when you only win half that many and piss off the man who helped you win those three so much that he leaves town and wins another one with someone else.

[monosylab1k]

I've always been a fan of MJ since I was little...my brother was huge Bulls fan. But I don't know much about his personality. Recently, I've read posts about how rude he was to his teammates...

Is that true? What kind of personality off the court did MJ have?

Just curious...

(p.s. Before everyone expresses their shock of me not knowing what is obvious to others, I'm a girl...therefore, I don't know too much about specific players...lol. So be nice.)
it's not necessarily that Jordan was a jerk, it's that he is ultra-competitive and could never accept losing. On the court and towards his teammates he could be a major jerk and bully, but it was all due to his desire to win. Off the court, from what I've seen, he was an incredibly generous and nice person.

if you're interested, I'd recommend two books.

One is The Jordan Rules by Sam Smith. This one exposes alot of Jordan's "other side" that he doesn't show to the public. This one focuses alot more on the negative aspects of Jordan but it isn't completely biased against him, it shows him in a good light as well.

The other is Playing For Keeps by David Halberstam. This is another book that shows every side of Jordan, but this one portrays him in a little more positive light.

[ambchang]

first off, pippen ain't a top 5 small forward. not by a fuckin longshot.

second, top 5 center >>>>>>>>>> top 5 small forward. it's pretty comical to even compare the two like they have equal footing. although pippen isn't a top 5 small forward anyways.

third, pippen MIGHT be a top 5 defender. and he might not. his defense fed off of jordan's defense, and vice versa. pippen has never been a singular shut-down defender like bowen. as soon as he didn't have jordan around his defense looked quite a bit more ordinary.

I would rank the top 5 SF in NBA history:
1) Larry Bird
2) Elgin Baylor
3) Julius Erving
4) George Gervin
5) Nique

But Pippen isn’t all that far off the top 5, you can argue that he is #5 in place of Nique, as can Rick Barry. In my eyes, he is > Worthy, Alex English and Dave Debusschere.

Pippen is better than any of the top SFs in the history of league defensively, and he directs the offense better than most (other than Bird of course). He is not a traditional SF and much more of a point forward.

Pippen’s defense was stellar in 94 and 95 when Jordan had that famous 2 year break from the hardwood, and single-handedly change the series against the Lakers in 91 with his defense on Magic from Game 2 to 5 (The Lakers squeaked out a win in Game 1 on the road with Worthy and Scott struggling, largely because Magic destroyed Jordan on the low blocks.) Age caught up with him, and Kobe Bryant used him when the Lakers faced off the Rockets in the playoffs (was it 98?)

[bdictjames]

Paul Shirley is the same guy who says the Suns play incredible defense, second to only the Spurs.

[monosylab1k]

Paul Shirley is the same guy who says the Suns play incredible defense, second to only the Spurs.
did he really say that? or was that a tongue in cheek remark? i hope it was.

[monosylab1k]

Pippen’s defense was stellar in 94 and 95 when Jordan had that famous 2 year break from the hardwood
during Jordan's 2 year suspension from the league for gambling, Pippen proved himself to be a very very nice player, but not a superstar by any stretch. Certainly not a top 50 player or a top 5 SF. This was the time period of the infamous "Kukoc incident" where he refused to play the final seconds of a game b/c he wasn't going to get the final shot. That tells me alot more about where Pippen belongs in the history of the association than anything else he did.

[ambchang]

during Jordan's 2 year suspension from the league for gambling, Pippen proved himself to be a very very nice player, but not a superstar by any stretch. Certainly not a top 50 player or a top 5 SF. This was the time period of the infamous "Kukoc incident" where he refused to play the final seconds of a game b/c he wasn't going to get the final shot. That tells me alot more about where Pippen belongs in the history of the association than anything else he did.
:lol at the suspension comment.
During those 2 years, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and the 2nd round of the playoffs. While not a championship contender, the Bulls did nicely without one of the top 5 players in the history of the league.
On an individual level, he was 1st team defense, All-Star MVP, and if I remember correctly, finished in the top 3 in MVP voting (maybe it was top 5). There was absolutely no doubt that he was a bona fide superstar those two years.
As for the Kukoc incident, his way of handling the situation was destructive to the team, and it speaks to his enormous ego, BUT it doesn't discount him as a top SF based on 1 play in a 15 year career.

[Findog]

:lol at the suspension comment.
During those 2 years, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and the 2nd round of the playoffs. While not a championship contender, the Bulls did nicely without one of the top 5 players in the history of the league.
On an individual level, he was 1st team defense, All-Star MVP, and if I remember correctly, finished in the top 3 in MVP voting (maybe it was top 5). There was absolutely no doubt that he was a bona fide superstar those two years.
As for the Kukoc incident, his way of handling the situation was destructive to the team, and it speaks to his enormous ego, BUT it doesn't discount him as a top SF based on 1 play in a 15 year career.

Well said, I agree. At his peak, Pippen was one of the top-10 players, hell top-five players in the League, and he's certainly one of the top-50 players in League history. The Bulls never won a title without Jordan, but they never won a title without Pippen either. I doubt very much that Pippen as your #1 guy could take you to a title, let alone six, but there's no doubt that he could carry a team to 50+ wins and deep into the playoffs in the top dog role -- he proved that when Jordan was out.

[monosylab1k]

there's probably 100 or more players in NBA history i'd rather have on my team than Pippen. Jordan is the sole reason people lick his balls this much. Without Jordan, Pippen never blossoms like he did. It's nice that he played so well without Mike around, but again, his team was never a serious contender for the title, and they never would have been.

He's the greatest Tonto in NBA History. That's about as much as can be said about him. Give me a second-tier Lone Ranger over the greatest Tonto any day.

[ambchang]

Pippen plays a great complimentary role, and he is not meant to be a leader. His mentality doesn't allow it. He is like TMac, Garnett, or maybe even Dirk in this regard. Amazing talent, but just not meant to be a leader.
I agree that Pippen probably would never have been a top 10 SF if it wasn't for Jordan, and the main reason is because he would be forced into a leadership role in which he is not the best at, he would probably be another Shawn Marion or Bob McAdoo, but the fact is he did blossom under Jordan and played great even without him.

[TheNextGen]

i thought this was a Kobe/Allen thread. =P