Late Night Game Thoughts

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

This is long, and goes by half, with an overall perspective at the end...

1st half
--------

The Spurs were killed on pick and roll. LA did this to us in the playoffs last year as well. We constantly switch and the guard ALWAYS shoots, (particularly AD). It needs to be said: Tim sucks on the pick and roll defense. I remember when he first came in the league, he'd switch and guard perimeter players, now he plays two feet off so he doesn't get burned on the dribble. Opposing guards look for their shots coming off that now (and Tim is fast enough to recover and block the shot behind should the guard get to the bucket, so no excuse).


- Why do we run O through Malik in post when Tim's out? The offense bogs down. DISCLAIMER: I think Malik played the best half of basketball tonight in the 2nd half I've seen him play in three years (back when I used to enjoy his play). Keep it up 31, just don't hold the ball so damn long at the offensive end.

- Bbowen sucked on ray ray, shot too much at the other end. At least three different times Bruce looked like he was sleeping on D and was at least 4-5 feet away from Ray. On each of those occassions, Ray hit a three.

- Devin looked hesitant offensively, this changed in the second half, but come on DB - you're the man off the bench.


- Pop was outcoached in the first half. Spurs looked confused against Seattle's defensive looks. Saw a lot of 3-2 zone from the Sonics, and we looked like didn't know how to run a zone offense.

Same shit as LA pulled on us the last 4 games last year - pack the lane, give zone looks to SA, we look lost offensively. Set some cross screens, backside 'oops, run short corner (Malik did it twice that I saw, and that was it) or something, but damnit don't stand around (that's what the zone is supposed to make you fall into the trap of doing).

- Saw Collison HOLDING Tim defensively no call. If the refs aren't going to call it, you've got to do something about it, you're a freakin' two time MVP. Fucking elbow him in the jaw on a spin move, he won't do it again. If you get called for the foul, so what? The refs will start calling it tight again.

- Seattle got away with a lot of moving picks, this continued all game.

- At the half points in the paint: 30-16 (Seattle lead), sad.


2nd half
------------
- We should press more, especially when we are playing lethargic. Even Tim showed some fire.

- Pop, if you're going to get cute taking Tony out, at least give Barry some run against his old team. Beno was getting schooled. Oh, and in case you didn't notice, Seattle ran a LOT of zone. You got Barry to bust the Laker-esque zones, use him.

- We played soft on the front line most of the night. At one point Pop was crying to the refs about physicality of Seattle front line. Whenever teams play physical on our front line, we puss out and try to hide behind officials.

Give me Karl Malone or give me death. Until then, put Massenberg in there. He's good for some blocks and boards, plus he is incredibly physical. And the way Tony plays, either someone from the other side will end up with a broken jaw or the refs will tighten up the officiating (which again, we apparently need).

- Fortson had his 5th foul with 6 minutes to go. Ended the game with 5 fouls. Tim, when a guy's got five, take his ass to the hole and get him out of there. (7 points, 4 boards for Fortson down the stretch) Not once did Tim attack the basket after Danny got his fifth.

Spurs possession at 88-81, both Tim and Malik held the ball for 5-6 seconds each (shot clock violation). Team looked confused again against the zone.

- We had trouble with seattle's big 3 guard set, which means we'll also have problems w/ Phoenix. I'd like to see Devin get more run there, he's long and athletic (only 11 minutes tonight). Oh, and run some plays through him too.


Random Game thoughts
-----------------------

- Not boxing out (outworked on boards by evans, james, fortson)

- For the love of God Tim, don't act like such a puss when teams get physical with you. Fight back damnit. There is absolutely no reason to allow Nick Collison to wrestle you to a draw. None. NONE. Initiate the contact, drive to the bucket every time.


What a frustrating night. Again a team gets physical with us on the front line (Seattle did this to us the first time too) and we go hide behind the skirts of the officials. Fucking nut up, someone, anyone.

As I said, give Massenberg some burn when things get physical. And get Karl Malone on the line, we need someone with some balls on the front line.

[Marcus Bryant]

The Spurs were killed on pick and roll. LA did this to us in the playoffs last year as well. We constantly switch and the guard ALWAYS shoots, (particularly AD). It needs to be said: Tim sucks on the pick and roll defense. I remember when he first came in the league, he'd switch and guard perimeter players, now he plays two feet off so he doesn't get burned on the dribble.

Q: Why?

A: http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpg



Why do we run O through Malik in post when Tim's out?

A: http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpg



- We played soft on the front line most of the night. At one point Pop was crying to the refs about physicality of Seattle front line. Whenever teams play physical on our front line, we puss out and try to hide behind officials.

Give me Karl Malone or give me death. Until then, put Massenberg in there. He's good for some blocks and boards, plus he is incredibly physical. And the way Tony plays, either someone from the other side will end up with a broken jaw or the refs will tighten up the officiating (which again, we apparently need).

- Fortson had his 5th foul with 6 minutes to go. Ended the game with 5 fouls. Tim, when a guy's got five, take his ass to the hole and get him out of there. (7 points, 4 boards for Fortson down the stretch) Not once did Tim attack the basket after Danny got his fifth.

http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpghttp://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpghttp://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpghttp://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpghttp://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpghttp://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3260.jpg
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[T Park]

Yup Marcus, no question, Rasho is the reason for all 4 losses.


Once again Mracus, find an available center thats better...


No answer from marcus cause hes a child.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You really shouldn't be so quick to blame a game's full of softness by the front line on a guy who only saw 11 minutes of run, just a thought.

[Marcus Bryant]

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Rasho is watching where you touch yourself late at night, TPark. He does not approve.

[Marcus Bryant]

There's a reason he saw only 11 minutes. Rinse. Repeat.

[T Park]

But Aggie, dont you know, its ALWAYS Malik's fault.

BTW, Massenburg looked horrible against Detroit so I dont know how good he wouldve looked tonight.

If Malone comes, you flip Massenburg onto the IR so quick his head will spin.


Rasho had 11 minutes??

hmmm, quick 11 minutes, seemed like him and Barry were out there the same aount of time.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

OH, and as for


Why do we run O through Malik in post when Tim's out?

I would answer you with:

http://www.nba.com/media/act_emanuel_ginobili.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/act_tony_parker.jpg

Not to mention
http://www.nba.com/media/act_devin_brown.jpg

And even
http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/barry_140_041026.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/beno_udrih.jpg

[T Park]

Rasho is watching where you touch yourself late at night, TPark. He does not approve.


God would you grow the fuck up already.

Jees, do you still laugh at "uranus" jokes too?

fuck it, to the ban column he goes.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes TPark, we know that there were worse centers than Radosoft available in 2003. But that is not an excuse at this point.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

There's a reason he saw only 11 minutes. Rinse. Repeat.

So Rasho's 11 minutes is to blame for our game long softness up front? That's some good shit. If you Rose is as good as you say, why can't he overcome this 11 minutes of Rasho's softness?

[Marcus Bryant]

You run it through the post because this is still the Sonics. Running the motion O is precisely what they'd like to see the Spurs continue to do, not pound it inside.

[T Park]

This message is hidden because Marcus Bryant is on your ignore list.


Holla holla.


I agree about the offense Aggie, I agree with running some screens for Parker and Ginobili, and I know others disagree, but what the hell, run some pick and rolls for Rasho.

What the hell, lets at least try and make him earn his 6.5 mill.

[whottt]

AHF, decent take...

This question needs to be asked though...how come other teams, when they use weak defensive players, simply go to zone D?

Yet, the Spurs, the defensive giant of the NBA, seem to be unable to grasp the concept of protecting a guy like Barry in a zone D?

In theory, a superior defensive team should be also be a superior zone d team...and in theory, any team that has two excellent shotblockers should be a really superior zone D....

Pop is going to let Barry rot on the bench ala Kerr...and while I am not saying Barry is going to be Kerr...he's pretty much had been destroyed by Pop's handling of him this early in the season... I'm not saying a reduction in minutes...I'm saying a total lack of trust or willingness to try and use his skills. He helps our offense even if his shot isn't falling.

This is like 01-03 all over again...all the sane people are saying...why not try ______, and we are told it isn't an option because of some mythical and overblown defense excuse.

It's horeshit...it was horseshit when it kept Kerr on the bench as we blew upteen 15 point leads...and it's horseshit now.

Pop=Defensive genius(unless he's going up against Seattle)...

Pop also=Offensive retard.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's the fact that Rasho is only worth playing for 11 minutes and that Rose brought what Rasho couldn't against a generally shitty frontcourt.

[T Park]

The only thing with a zone,

it forces the opponent to make outside shots supposedly,
and thats what the Sonics were doing, making outside shots.

maybe thats why they didnt go that road.

But I understand what your saying, and I agree with it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

whott,


This question needs to be asked though...how come other teams, when they use weak defensive players, simply go to zone D?

Yet, the Spurs, the defensive giant of the NBA, seem to be unable to grasp the concept of protecting a guy like Barry in a zone D?

In theory, a superior defensive team should be also be a superior zone d team...and in theory, any team that has two excellent shotblockers should be a really superior zone D....


If you remember, when the league instituted zone defense rules, every team in the league was saying "oh shit, think about the Spurs, there was even GMs opposing the zone rules because they thought they would inherently give us a big advantage.

The answer to your question is that Pop is not flexible. He has his schemes, and that's all you run or you don't play. Our scheme defensively is to force everything baseline and let the bigs clean up.

The irony of that is the whole "force them baseline" thing would be *perfect* for running a 3-2 or 1-2-2 zone with, we'd still have our bigs there to clean up (and I would argue it'd actually make Rasho better defensively as well).

But alas, instead Barry gets benched and we get to watch stupid threads get started blaming him for a loss to Seattle where we gave up 60 in the first half, a tall point *ahem* took advantage of our short points, and Brent played a whole 6 minutes.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The only thing with a zone,

it forces the opponent to make outside shots supposedly,
and thats what the Sonics were doing, making outside shots.

TPark, a 3-2 or hybrid 1-2-2 takes away the three point shot, unless you want a big man shooting it from the corner. Personally I'd rather have Collison and Radmanovic out there jacking shit up then watching Ray Ray, Antonio, and Rashard go postal on us.

The Spurs could be deadly with a 3-2. I'm not saying they need to run it exclusively, but it would be great for instances like whott brought up where you want to cover up a defensive liability. It would also give guys like Devin and Manu whose motors burn every second they're on the court a little breathing room defensively.

[T Park]

I disagree that the Spurs never run zone.

They ran it against Milwaukee and Detroit, quite a bit.

Saying that pop NEVER uses it stretching it.

and,

thank you for making my point that Brent Barry shoudlve been in there against Daniels and would IMO, opened the game up and wouldve been alot closer.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

For the life of me I couldn't figure out why we either didn't give Barry some burn or if you've shackled him to the bench take out Tony/Beno, let Manu bring it up, bring in Devin to play Rashard, and slide Bowen over to the two to guard Ray Ray.

Oh well.

[T Park]

Well radmonovic is a pretty damn good three point shooter,

but, youd have COllison on the inside, and I dont know what, BUT, Radmonovic does play exclusively above the three point line.

3-2 wouldve helped when Duncan wasnt in there.


Tonight what pissed me off was seeing Luke freakin Ridenour drive right around Parker, Udrih and Duncan with ease.

Such horseshit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Pop has stuck with a man to man emphasis for a reason. Zone D sounds great but this isn't college, you have players who can break a defense down. Zone D also is more apt to lead to defensive breakdowns at the pro level, again due to the quality of offensive players.

[T Park]

I think the idea of Manu rbinging it up is dead.

Pop has got it in his head that Barry cant run the point.


Pop, did you forget, he was the StARTING pg for the Sonics last year???

Hellooooo MCFly????

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well here's my thinking on the 3-2. It would be a godsend defensively when we have Horry and Rose back there, and would be particularly effective against teams like Phoenix, Seattle, and Milwaukee who live and die by the three.

It's not like the 3-2 would leave Radmanovic wide open, there'd still be a perimeter man to get a hand in his face. Collison would be a non-issue offensively, regardless of what.

Ridnour was getting open courtesy the screen and roll, something we never have defensed very well.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Zone D sounds great but this isn't college, you have players who can break a defense down. Zone D also is more apt to lead to defensive breakdowns at the pro level, again due to the quality of offensive players.

Well I just watched the zone D that you say doesn't work on this level make chumps out of the Spurs tonight in the first half. No one said you have to run it an entire game, just long enough to get a team out of synch offensively.

Especially when a team is killing you with the pick and roll and outside shooting.

[T Park]

Something for some reason we havent I agree.

I agree with the 3-2. when you dont have Rasho and Duncan or either or in there, let the speed of the 5 in there be to your advantage.

a 3-2 would be great for periods when Duncan aint out there.

Theres no shame in using a 3-2, and Pop uses a 3-2, I just dont understand why he doesnt use it more often.

Damn millitary.

[whottt]

whott,




The answer to your question is that Pop is not flexible. He has his schemes, and that's all you run or you don't play. Our scheme defensively is to force everything baseline and let the bigs clean up.

The irony of that is the whole "force them baseline" thing would be *perfect* for running a 3-2 or 1-2-2 zone with, we'd still have our bigs there to clean up (and I would argue it'd actually make Rasho better defensively as well).
.


And the even bigger irony...Tonight Barry was forcing Rashard to the baseline textbook perfect and no help was coming...Elliott even broke it down at length, in slow motion and with the telestrater, and explained that Barry wasn't at fault on either of those plays....Malik and Duncan were...next thing you know Barry is out of the game for good...I mean you can sit there and see him forcing Rashard to the baseline...

I think we all agree that Sean Elliott knows exactly what a SF is supposed to do in Pop's defensive system...And after seeing that breakdown I have no doubts that Barry is being unfairly maligned and scapegoated by Pop...If it was Hedo Pop would be sucking him off during time outs...yet Barry, a quality guy and not a head case, who wants to be here and wants to take high pressure shots...is getting treated like crap, and it hurt us tonight offensively.

To be fair he did blow a play by trying to help out in the middle...but he didn't screw up any worse than Duncan and Malik did...

[T Park]

I like that me and Aggie are getting along, things are alot nicer, must be the 16-4 record!! :)

I agree, again, what the hell is wrong with using it once in a while, were not talking becoming FliP Saunders being a puss and just saying everytime down the court THREETWO THREETWO.

[T Park]

Eh, I dont think Pop was too fond of Hedo at the end there Whottt.


Chillllll, take a breath, everything will be alright.


yes there are problems, but do you want everything to be perfect and not have things to work on in December??

Come on....

Plus, Pop likes to fuck up once ina while just to jerk Aggie's chain,

am I right aggie?? :)

hehee.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well anytime he wants to unleash the Brent Barry we thought we were getting when we signed the guy, I'd appreciate the jerking to change to a different subject.

[Marcus Bryant]

Seattle is not running a pure zone it's much like every other NBA defense a man to man with some trapping, fronting, and packing the paint as need be.

[T Park]

hehe, come on aggie, lighten up a little.

Barry will get more time, this is the tradition for new guards that come to the Spurs, they go through the "tough stubborn Pop" phase not getting many minutes and not getting to show much.

Ala Manu 03 Devin Brown 04.

[whottt]

hehe, come on aggie, lighten up a little.

Barry will get more time, this is the tradition for new guards that come to the Spurs, they go through the "tough stubborn Pop" phase not getting many minutes and not getting to show much.

Ala Manu 03 Devin Brown 04.


I don't appreciate Pop fucking with my 65 win prediction while he plays head games with his guards.

I need 65 wins to shut Nikos up and prove he doesn't know WTF he is talking about.

[Tek_XX]

I can't remember a time when an opponent didn't score when we run zone, there's a good reason we don't run it becuase it doesn't work and also pop hates it.

Is it possible to overanalyze this game, yes mistakes were made, mostly lack of energy in the first half.

[whottt]

I can't remember a time when an opponent didn't score when we run zone, .

2003 NBA finals.