Marcus Williams Draft Choice, WHY?

[spurscenter]

I know this has been talked about in the past

bUt whats your take on drafting Marcus Williams out of nowhere.

Is he suppose to be groomed to be the next what?

He was mediocre in college and its so UN SPURS like to draft someone like that when they can just pick up a Amir Johnson, Speedy claxton, jacque vaughn, etc to plug in. They always find someone like Anthony Carter to come in.

Why Marcus Williams?

I still dont get it.

Marcus Williams is a Summer League type Invite player who goes undrafted and gets invited to try out, like CJ Watson was but CJ is actually better!

No OTHER team had Marcus Williams on their draft radar.

Big Baby was there, so were many others better.

On draft day, I was like WHY?????????

Im still puzzled. He is not even going to make the team I bet and if the Spurs cut him, I doubt anyone else will sign him. Who will sign him??? no one.

But really, Why marcus williams when you already have

BENO, JACQUE and PARKER signed.

and then again, its the first USA born draft player for the spurs in many years.

Did he workout for the Spurs before the draft and score 80 on Budholdzer?
Did Sean Elliot hype him up? lol

Did Pop check him out? I cant believe Pop would ok , getting Marcus Williams at #33 of 60 ----- whatever.

Still puzzled on this pick.

Makes no fucking sense at all.

No one has given me an argument as to his purpose or what you see in him.

I can understand if he has some unique talent like Amazing Speed or amazing passing but lacks in other places that can be worked on BUT Marcus Just plain lacks in ALL categories with no strengths at all.

He is just a common player and not even the star in Arizona.

Mustafa Shakur was better at Arizona and he didnt get drafted this year.

To me, Marcus Williams is the next coming of Mateen Cleaves for god sakes.

http://www.augusta.k12.wi.us/extracurr/web/altaco/mateendance.jpg

Hopefully Im wrong

[Gros Membres!]

He was supposed to be the next Sean Elliot.

[whottt]

Elliot


Oh no you didn't

[Bruno]

But really, Why marcus williams when you already have

BENO, JACQUE and PARKER signed.


:lmao

Williams isn't a PG.

[fyatuk]

Just because it's annoying me you keep mentioning point guards...

http://www.nba.com/draft2007/profiles/MarcusWilliams.html

He's a wing, so Udrih, Vaughn, and Parker are irrelevant.

And the answer is he's supposed to be an athletic wing with a good mid-range game, capable of taking people off the dribble and shoot threes, and play decent defense. He was drafted because the Spurs are getting to be in desperate need of youth at the wings. Other than James White and Marcus WIlliams, the youngest Spur wing is Manu, who turns 30 later this month.

[wildbill2u]

Supposed to be the best defensive SF at that spot (33). They worked him out.

When you figure in that they had probably decided that they were going to stay with the Championship roster--for the first time in Duncan's career by the way--maybe they figured the 33 pick was a throw-away anyway since they have an athletic young wing in White who's got a year in the system.

If he didn't shine in summer league and at camp, then who's gonna argue when he gets cut. Deep and mysterious are the ways of the Spurs FO at draft time.

[JMarkJohns]

I'm looking more and more like an idiot every time I talk of the kid, but if you'll be patient with him, I think you got yourselves a winner.

He's 20 years old, and has had his head screwed on backwards by friends, family and agents about the League. And while he has truly been terrible in summer league, again, his Arizona squad was 9-2 when Marcus scored 20 points or more.

I can't say why he's this bad right now. I'm certain it's mental. Which is why you have to stick with him for a year. sign him and ship him to the NBDL and see if he can't get straightened out.

Just about any Arizona fan will tell you this kid has been the best pure scorer to pass through UA since Arenas. Just give him some time.

Or cut your losses and ax his ass now. It's not like some draft picks don't require a little more developing than others.

[Hemotivo]

Oh no you didn't
:lol :lol :lol tt

[BacktoBasics]

He was supposed to be the next Sean Elliot.TWO MOTHERFUCKING T'S ON ELLIOTT. FOR FUCKS SAKE GET IT RIGHT

[Darkwaters]

Having been able to watch him on some better TV broadcasts recently that actually allow me to see the action I'm feeling a bit better about Williams. He clearly has shown very little in SL but has some nice raw skills. He looks like he could be a quality defender and if somebody would teach him how to properly shoot a basketball he might just pan out. He cocks that ball way to far back and has a slooooow release. But hopefully that can be resolved.

[Darkwaters]

TWO MOTHERFUCKING T'S ON ELLIOTT. FOR FUCKS SAKE GET IT RIGHT

I agree. I hate it when stupid people can't spell Shawn Elliott's name right.






:rolleyes

[Twisted_Dawg]

I know this has been talked about in the past

bUt whats your take on drafting Marcus Williams out of nowhere.

No OTHER team had Marcus Williams on their draft radar.

Big Baby was there, so were many others better.



Williams was on every single mock draft as a late first or early second round pick. After Rudy Fernadez was drafted at #23 and Morris Almond at #24, the talent level dropped off considerably and was pretty much a crap shoot after that.

[wildbill2u]

Even late first round from 21-30 is always a crap shoot with only about 15-20% ever making it as solid NBA talent. By the time you get to the second round, the odds are even higher that the pick won't work out.

Since he was pretty much a consensus first round pick at SF, albeit in the lower third, you'd have had second guessers going crazy if the Spurs hadn't taken him.

[Da Spurs]

I'd have taken Big Baby. But then again, they probably didn't know at the time they were going to dump the other Big Baby, JButt.

[Slinkyman]

spurscenter starting threads, WHY?

[The Truth #6]

From others analysis of the Summer league games, apparently he shows a lot of defensive skill. Something like 4 or 5 blocks in one game. Assuming this assessment is true, they might be grooming him for a "Dirk stopper" type of role player. I'm not saying that's the case, but that seems like a good guess. But again, he might not even make the team this year...

[Kori Ellis]

When you try to bring such a strong opinion about a player, at least google it and find out what position he plays.

[BacktoBasics]

I agree. I hate it when stupid people can't spell Shawn Elliott's name right.






:rolleyesHahahaha I needed that laugh thanks. :toast

[jdaveah]

Just about any Arizona fan will tell you this kid has been the best pure scorer to pass through UA since Arenas. Just give him some time.




Um....no. Everyone in Tucson is thrilled that he's gone. Also, this statement implies that he's a better scorer than Salim was which would be a gross overstatement. I don't know what Arizona fans you're talking about that like him so much and love his scoring abilities, but the ones who are here in Tucson and attended all the games are really excited to stop watching Marcus shoot 4 of 14 from the field and stagnating the offense.

[Darkwaters]

From others analysis of the Summer league games, apparently he shows a lot of defensive skill. Something like 4 or 5 blocks in one game. Assuming this assessment is true, they might be grooming him for a "Dirk stopper" type of role player. I'm not saying that's the case, but that seems like a good guess. But again, he might not even make the team this year...

That was my assessment. And he really did impress me. His shooting stroke is obviously flawed, but he showed some impressive defensive ability. He was blocking shots that whole game...on Thaddeus Young, the number 12 pick. While most of his games in the SL were horrible he looked downright impressive that night. Even though he shot like 4-14 he contributed a lot in other areas. I think he had like 4 assists that game too (and that wasn't by my count, that was the official stat sheet).

[misterx91578]

.

Mustafa Shakur was better at Arizona and he didnt get drafted this year.

To me, Marcus Williams is the next coming of Mateen Cleaves for god sakes.

http://www.augusta.k12.wi.us/extracurr/web/altaco/mateendance.jpg

Hopefully Im wrong

are you serious shakur was better then williams did you watch any uofa games

[jdaveah]

are you serious shakur was better then williams did you watch any uofa games


I wouldn't say Shakur was better at U of A this season, but he certainly has had a much stronger summer showing for the Kings SL than Marcus has for us and would have fit what I feel is a more pressing need for the Spurs. If we had tabbed Staf at 58 he could have easily been the #3 point and come at a significantly cheaper rate than Beno.

[Gros Membres!]

TWO MOTHERFUCKING T'S ON ELLIOTT. FOR FUCKS SAKE GET IT RIGHT
Fuck you, you fuckin' fuck. There's no spellcheck. And who really gives a shit about Sean Elliott (!) anyway - great color guy, hit one shot to put the team over the top in the 90s, and sucked away the mid-90s with TC. Get off your fuckin' high horse.

[jdaveah]

Fuck you, you fuckin' fuck. There's no spellcheck. And who really gives a shit about Sean Elliott (!) anyway - great color guy, hit one shot to put the team over the top in the 90s, and sucked away the mid-90s with TC. Get off your fuckin' high horse.



uh oh

[Kori Ellis]

Fuck you, you fuckin' fuck. There's no spellcheck. And who really gives a shit about Sean Elliott (!) anyway - great color guy, hit one shot to put the team over the top in the 90s, and sucked away the mid-90s with TC. Get off your fuckin' high horse.

Wow, can you get any lamer?

The original poster was trying to be funny because we always bring up here that no one spells Elliott right.

And as for who gives a fuck about Sean Elliott - you should! He gave a couple million dollars out of his pocket as a loan to the organization to build a state of the art practice facility. A practice facility that helps keep the Spurs players healthy, in shape and bonded as a team.

And even if you want to discount everything he's done on the court and in the San Antonio community, he's about as diehard of a Spurs fan as you can get.

[spurscenter]

I'm looking more and more like an idiot every time I talk of the kid, but if you'll be patient with him, I think you got yourselves a winner.

He's 20 years old, and has had his head screwed on backwards by friends, family and agents about the League. And while he has truly been terrible in summer league, again, his Arizona squad was 9-2 when Marcus scored 20 points or more.

I can't say why he's this bad right now. I'm certain it's mental. Which is why you have to stick with him for a year. sign him and ship him to the NBDL and see if he can't get straightened out.

Just about any Arizona fan will tell you this kid has been the best pure scorer to pass through UA since Arenas. Just give him some time.

Or cut your losses and ax his ass now. It's not like some draft picks don't require a little more developing than others.


Great answer. Thanks.

[spurscenter]

Even late first round from 21-30 is always a crap shoot with only about 15-20% ever making it as solid NBA talent. By the time you get to the second round, the odds are even higher that the pick won't work out.

Since he was pretty much a consensus first round pick at SF, albeit in the lower third, you'd have had second guessers going crazy if the Spurs hadn't taken him.

Yea true. but you have to be surprised when the spurs took him over Big Baby. Even Sam Presti saw Big Baby raw talents

we could of gotten a Marcus Williams that wasnt drafted (i.e. C.J> Watson)

[spurscenter]

spurscenter starting threads, WHY?

Because its a free country, asshole

[spurscenter]

When you try to bring such a strong opinion about a player, at least google it and find out what position he plays.


REFS FIX GAMES, ban me.

[Kori Ellis]

we could of gotten a Marcus Williams that wasnt drafted (i.e. C.J> Watson)

Why do you keep comparing him to point guards when he's a small forward?

[Kori Ellis]

REFS FIX GAMES, ban me.

Okay.

[SenorSpur]

As bad as the Spurs need an infusion of youth at the wing spot, they need to give this kid a loooonng look. Just as they've done with White. Hell, invest a year in him and see how he pans out in the NBDL. It's way to soon for them to start throwing away young players at this juncture.

Give him some time to develop and then decide. If he doens't pan out, go back into the draft and try again next June. By that time, hopefully White will have already started making some sort of contribution.

That's one of the reasons, I'm personally hoping the Spurs land Udoka. He would be a nice, experienced transitional wing player to bridge the gap between Bowen and White or whoever the supposed future wing player(s) are supposed to be.

[Beno Udrih]

:lmao

[timvp]

REFS FIX GAMES, ban me.

:shootme

[spurscenter]

YO GUYS

I was confusing Marcus Williams position because of Marcus Williams from UCONN

So i was reading a bunch of articles on Marcus Williams and some were of the other Marcus Williams of Uconn. So in the end, my mind was thinking PG all along.

I fucked up like always. lol

So sorry to Kori and co. for saying PG and BENO and all that. Which makes no sense now.

BUT either way, I was looking for the reasons for drafting our Marcus Williams and what exactly do we see in him, or his future with the spurs to draft him so high when his partna' Tupac didnt get drafted.

Just wanted your takes on why we drafted him regardless of his position.


--

This is the other Marcus Williams, I put a picture of him next to my screen so that I remember him for the rest of my life. LOL

He is kinda cute ....

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/AllStories/MBasketball/2006/06/28/uconn_30600481.jpg

Stern that is.

[BIG z]

He is a good defender thoug..

[Mr. Body]

To me, Marcus Williams is the next coming of Mateen Cleaves for god sakes.

http://www.augusta.k12.wi.us/extracurr/web/altaco/mateendance.jpg

Hopefully Im wrong

Come on, man! Mateen Cleaves was a far better college player than Marcus Williams ever was.

Anyway, I wonder how long the legend of Williams being a good defender will take to die.

[PhxDog]

Um....no. Everyone in Tucson is thrilled that he's gone. Also, this statement implies that he's a better scorer than Salim was which would be a gross overstatement. I don't know what Arizona fans you're talking about that like him so much and love his scoring abilities, but the ones who are here in Tucson and attended all the games are really excited to stop watching Marcus shoot 4 of 14 from the field and stagnating the offense.
Pretty much how I felt about him. I definitely didn't want the Suns to take him at #29.

The other thing about Williams is, he was making mental breakdowns on defense in this year's NCAA tourney game and not even trying to recover.

[SequSpur]

dude. bonner got 3 mill.. wtf r u complaining about? williams is free.

[BradLohaus]

Oden wasn't exactly destroying the summer league competition either. And as for drafting a big like Davis - we had just taken one in the 1st round. We need to get younger at the 2/3 spots ASAP. I don't have a problem with taking a chance on the kid for a couple of years.

If we can get Udoka and either one of White/Williams eventually develops into a contributing wing over the next couple of years, then that's all you can ask for.

[spurscenter]

Oden wasn't exactly destroying the summer league competition either. And as for drafting a big like Davis - we had just taken one in the 1st round. We need to get younger at the 2/3 spots ASAP. I don't have a problem with taking a chance on the kid for a couple of years.

If we can get Udoka and either one of White/Williams eventually develops into a contributing wing over the next couple of years, then that's all you can ask for.

true dat. u made me agree with you but Oden will for sure be ok, he has size and will develop.
hopefully M.W. Defense is great and thats his true asset.

[JMarkJohns]

Um....no. Everyone in Tucson is thrilled that he's gone. Also, this statement implies that he's a better scorer than Salim was which would be a gross overstatement. I don't know what Arizona fans you're talking about that like him so much and love his scoring abilities, but the ones who are here in Tucson and attended all the games are really excited to stop watching Marcus shoot 4 of 14 from the field and stagnating the offense.

You overstate to the point where any valid concern you may present is undercut by your own obvious bias.

Again, you can't make a case against Marcus being a detriment when the Wildcats this past season were 9-2 when he scored 20+ points.

Marcus was also one of the most consistant shooters on the team. Sure, he had his bad games, but those 4-for-14 performances weren't as commonplace as you make it seem.

As for the fans in Tucson, I'm a moderator of one of Arizona's top fan sites. I've got contacts and sources, as well as the casual fan's opinion on the topic.

Yeah, some disliked Marcus Williams the player, but it was only because they needed a scapegoat for their season. Ivan was too soft a guy, so you couldn't blame him, Mustafa was the team's highest rated PG prospect ever, so he had legions of fans before he ever stepped foot on campus, Chase is the poster-child of the future, so he's not going to catch any flack, and McClellan is quite the sympathethic figure, having lost his father, had a season ending injury, and a microfracture procedure that he attempted to come back from too early, so you can't blame him.

That left Marcus or role players.

You can dislike him, and still acknowledge that he, as an 19/20 year old was a phenominal scorer. Most freshmen/sophomores don't score that many points, while shooting as good a percentage for a team that wins 20 games and makes the NCAA Tournament the two years he's on campus. Not when said player is a 50-to-80 range prospect.

As for Salim, he was never the scorer Marcus was. Much better shooter, but even he was disliked for a team or two's failings. He redeemed himself with a fantastic senior season, but he had a lot of speed bumps along the way. Like I said, Salim was dominantly a spot-up shooter, who occasionally took his player off the dribble before pulling up from mid-range. He isn't anywhere near the slasher/cutter/post player Marcus is.

If you care to rehash this further, you can search the topic and find statistics I gave backing up my claims of above.

I know how passionate college fans are. Note I said passionate, not objective. That's precisely how I'd describe your posts on the topic.

Marcus has his flaws. But if a coach can get through, get him to keep his head up when things aren't going well for him, then he could be a value to a team that takes the time to develop his talent.

Stephen Jackson was an incredably flawed talent who finally got "it" here in San Antonio. I'd like to see Marcus get that same treatment. Williams isn't near the headcase Jackson was/is, so any investment could potentially yield a quicker, if not greater return.

[misterx91578]

You overstate to the point where any valid concern you may present is undercut by your own obvious bias.

Again, you can't make a case against Marcus being a detriment when the Wildcats this past season were 9-2 when he scored 20+ points.

Marcus was also one of the most consistant shooters on the team. Sure, he had his bad games, but those 4-for-14 performances weren't as commonplace as you make it seem.

As for the fans in Tucson, I'm a moderator of one of Arizona's top fan sites. I've got contacts and sources, as well as the casual fan's opinion on the topic.

Yeah, some disliked Marcus Williams the player, but it was only because they needed a scapegoat for their season. Ivan was too soft a guy, so you couldn't blame him, Mustafa was the team's highest rated PG prospect ever, so he had legions of fans before he ever stepped foot on campus, Chase is the poster-child of the future, so he's not going to catch any flack, and McClellan is quite the sympathethic figure, having lost his father, had a season ending injury, and a microfracture procedure that he attempted to come back from too early, so you can't blame him.

That left Marcus or role players.

You can dislike him, and still acknowledge that he, as an 19/20 year old was a phenominal scorer. Most freshmen/sophomores don't score that many points, while shooting as good a percentage for a team that wins 20 games and makes the NCAA Tournament the two years he's on campus. Not when said player is a 50-to-80 range prospect.

As for Salim, he was never the scorer Marcus was. Much better shooter, but even he was disliked for a team or two's failings. He redeemed himself with a fantastic senior season, but he had a lot of speed bumps along the way. Like I said, Salim was dominantly a spot-up shooter, who occasionally took his player off the dribble before pulling up from mid-range. He isn't anywhere near the slasher/cutter/post player Marcus is.

If you care to rehash this further, you can search the topic and find statistics I gave backing up my claims of above.

I know how passionate college fans are. Note I said passionate, not objective. That's precisely how I'd describe your posts on the topic.

Marcus has his flaws. But if a coach can get through, get him to keep his head up when things aren't going well for him, then he could be a value to a team that takes the time to develop his talent.

Stephen Jackson was an incredably flawed talent who finally got "it" here in San Antonio. I'd like to see Marcus get that same treatment. Williams isn't near the headcase Jackson was/is, so any investment could potentially yield a quicker, if not greater return.

i agree

[JMarkJohns]

Pre-emptive...


In the teams non-conference schedule, when they won the majority of their games...

Marcus averaged 15 ppg on 13 FG attempts per game and 45% from the field.
Chase averaged 16.7 ppg on 12 FG attepts per game and 55% from the field.

In the teams conference schedule, when everything went to hell, largely because of injury (McClellan) and PG play (Shakur)...

Marcus averaged 16.8 ppg on 14 FG attempts per game and 52% from the field.
Chase averaged 14.8 ppg on 12 FG attempts per game and 45% from the field.

So on basically the same amount of shots, give or take percentage points, Chase's PPG and FG% dropped, while Marcus, on roughly the same attempts per, scored a little better but that can be better explained by shooting better from the field.

I'm telling you, the #1 issue with Arizona was the failings of Shakur. When he ran the show effectively, the team scored in bunches with everyone getting theirs with no issue. When his game went in the crapper, Marcus took it upon himself to become the leader and creator of the offense, upping his as a leader should, but with Budinger mired in a slump of inconsistancy, Shakur playing like a freshman, McClellan injured and with Ivan's limitations, there was only so much Marcus could do.

Fact is, Arizona was 9-2 when Marcus was the offensive leader and scoring 20 or more points. NINE & TWO!

I watched every game, and let me tell you, it was mighty hard at times, and I can tell you that Budinger hit a wall during conference play that had little to do with Marcus. For about a 10-game stretch, Budinger relied heavily on his jumper/3-point shot, which abandoned him, as he shot roughly 40% from the field and 30% from range. Compare to roughly 55% from the field and 40% from range in every other game.

Sorry for the book, and I'm sure there were feelings of hostility between Marcus and the others, but it was largely because Marcus had stepped up his game when things went south and every other player would rathe go down with the ship than fight to save it.

Also...


His TO numbers were basically identical...

2.6 turnovers per game during their 12-1 start...
2.8 turnovers per game in every game thereafter...

So, obviously, that was not the issue.

True, he had a few terrible games. But when your team is getting blown out and you have to press the issue in attempts to make something happen, sometimes turnovers happen.

Manu has his share of 3/4 turnover games. No reason to throw him out because of it.

Fact is, the Shakur averaged 8 apg to just 3.2 TO during their 12-1 stretch and just 6 apg to 4 TO during their 8-10 finish.

Shakur also shot 48.5% to start during the 12-1 stretch, then just 38% the rest of the way.

You can lay all the blame on the player trying to do something about it. And sure, I'll give you that he did his own thing on occasion, but his own thing won them games. Note the 9-2 when he scored 20 or more points...

He wasn't selfish. He just forced the issue. Whether some shots, which weren't that many if you look at the stats and percentages, and some passes. Yes, he broke plays, but said plays weren't working with Shakur playing like crap.

Someone had to attempt to save the season. Marcus stood up and took it upon himself.

I've never seen so much made over a player trying to do right by his team.

Oh wait, yes I have...

enter Kobe...

Not comparing the player, merely situation.

Again, statistically there's little difference between Marcus when Arizona was winning and Marcus when Arizona was losing. Everyone else, big falls.

Yeah, he took over a bit too much. Get him some teammates who can make an open shot, or make a post entry pass and you don't see that Marcus. You'll see the content and happy Marcus who was a leader for the 12-1 streak to start the season.

I'm not saying Marcus is innocent. I'm saying some things are way overblown, and that Marcus is not the only problem. Probably just the most outspoken of them.

Like I said, it's fine to cast some blame. And I completely understanding not liking a player, but let's not allow personal bias to skew the facts.

It was a total and complete meltdown on Arizona's part. While Marcus' ever-faltering shot, which the percentage don't bear out, by the way, played a part, I'm sick of hearing he's the lone reason for the Wildcats dismal play down the stretch. He wasn't even the biggest reason.

What more can a sophomore player do but score 17 ppg, on better than 50% shooting when his senior teammates won't pull their own heads out of their asses to help right the wrongs...

[jdaveah]

You overstate to the point where any valid concern you may present is undercut by your own obvious bias.

Again, you can't make a case against Marcus being a detriment when the Wildcats this past season were 9-2 when he scored 20+ points.

Marcus was also one of the most consistant shooters on the team. Sure, he had his bad games, but those 4-for-14 performances weren't as commonplace as you make it seem.

I've seen you trot out this statistic a few times in the threads about Marcus, and it is certainly a valid point. However, how many of these 9 wins were against quality opponents? These statistics can be very self serving in the college game because many top programs begin non conference schedules against teams that are incredibly overmatched. This isn't to say that Marcus played horrifically all season and I know there were games where his offensive game pushed UA to the win, but I think the 9-2 stat that you've been trotting out is a bit misleading. Just taking a quick glance at the games Arizona won where Marcus scored above 20 you see names like New Mexico State, Illinois (on 6-15 shooting), San Diego State, Cal twice, and Stanford. These are games that Arizona absolutely SHOULD be winning. The reason these games were won is not because Marcus played so well offensively, but because, as a team, Arizona was far far superior this season. To give Marcus credit for this is a misappropriation, and those listed serve as 7 of those 9 wins you mention.


As for the fans in Tucson, I'm a moderator of one of Arizona's top fan sites. I've got contacts and sources, as well as the casual fan's opinion on the topic.

Goazcats? pointguardu? I don't frequent the sites as I live on campus and feel that I get a fairly solid impression of the Arizona fanbase without going online, but it'd be cool to see you over there too.



You can dislike him, and still acknowledge that he, as an 19/20 year old was a phenominal scorer. Most freshmen/sophomores don't score that many points, while shooting as good a percentage for a team that wins 20 games and makes the NCAA Tournament the two years he's on campus. Not when said player is a 50-to-80 range prospect.

As for Salim, he was never the scorer Marcus was. Much better shooter, but even he was disliked for a team or two's failings. He redeemed himself with a fantastic senior season, but he had a lot of speed bumps along the way. Like I said, Salim was dominantly a spot-up shooter, who occasionally took his player off the dribble before pulling up from mid-range. He isn't anywhere near the slasher/cutter/post player Marcus is.

If you care to rehash this further, you can search the topic and find statistics I gave backing up my claims of above.

I know how passionate college fans are. Note I said passionate, not objective. That's precisely how I'd describe your posts on the topic.

Marcus has his flaws. But if a coach can get through, get him to keep his head up when things aren't going well for him, then he could be a value to a team that takes the time to develop his talent.

Stephen Jackson was an incredably flawed talent who finally got "it" here in San Antonio. I'd like to see Marcus get that same treatment. Williams isn't near the headcase Jackson was/is, so any investment could potentially yield a quicker, if not greater return.

I think calling him a phenominal scorer is a bit over the top. He was certainly an above average scorer, but he wasn't even the most talented scorer on his own team this year. And just because someone performs at a level higher than where he was slated recruiting wise doesn't make him phenominal. Marcus was a nice surprise as a recruit considering his ranking coming in, but lets not overstate how important that is to his worth now.

If you think I'm passionate and biased about this particular topic, you're right. I hate that the last game I got to root for my school my senior year of college will be remembered in my mind as Marcus and the rest of the guys not playing team defense, getting beat by their less talented man and then not even trying to recover, not fighting for rebounds, and playing individual basketball on the offensive end. I don't blame this all on Marcus, but he looked less upset and seemed to give less effort in that game than any of the players on the floor.

If you'd like a more objective argument then that's fine. I've got plenty of numbers I can show that would prove my point. How about 29% from college 3 point range this season? The 1.1-1 assist to turnover ratio when he is supposed to be more than capable of solid point guard play when needed? 1 rebound in the first round of the NCAA tourney when he was taller than his man in every matchup he had?

You've said that I overstate how often Marcus had the "4 of 14" type games, so lets look at some of the most important games of the season since I really don't think how Marcus played against the Northern Arizona, Samford, New Mexico, and Houston's of the world have much relevance to how he will perform in the NBA.
UCLA 7-17
UNC 2-4, but he got hurt so I don't thihnk it's fair to talk to much about this one
Oregon during the Pac 10 Tourney 6-20
@ Stanford in a game that some poeple said we needed to assure a tourney birth 6-16
Wazzu 4-11
@USC 7-17
@Wazzu 8-19
@Oregon 6-15
Purdue 4-10

These were most of the biggest games the team played this year, so I apologize if it sticks out in my mind that these are the games where Marcus mailed it in. It's easy to pull your averages back up against clearly inferior opponents, so I tend to put less weight in NCAA averages. My prevailing feelings about Marcus is based on issues you don't need a stat sheet to see: poor shooting mechanics, quitting on plays, not bringing it in big games, not being coachable, and the inability to play team ball.

And I know that this argument is not particularly germane to the Williams in the NBA discussion we're having, but saying that Marcus is a better scorer than Salim is crazy. When we needed a bucket, we gave the ball to Salim and he would get us the bucket. You can talk about all the different kinds of ways Marcus can score that Salim didn't use, but when it comes down to it Marcus isn't a guy you can give the ball to and ask for 2 points in a tough spot.

Hopefully these arguments don't come off as hostile in any way, I'm just genuinely enjoying having this argument with another Cats fan.
:toast

[JMarkJohns]

Two 41% shooting and another 42%. Those aren't that terrible. I could trot out some stats that show several top players having consistant nights like that.

That leaves about 5/6 "bad" performances. Like I said, I'll give them to you. I'll also give you that some of them came in some big games, like the Pac-10 Tourney game vs. Oregon. Again, I've never contested that Marcus was a player without much to work on. I've said he unfairly gets painted as the lone reason for a great team's failings. Like I said, I may not have been at the games, but I've been a statistician for years, and understand how to breakdown video, and generally deem Marcus to be one of the few players who cared about winning or losing. He wasn't selfish, as evidensed by the 12-1 start. When the ship started to sink, he was one of the few who attempted to do anything about it.

Yes, sometimes he forced shots, but it was he or someone else. Chase wasn't the consistant force many remember him to be, Shakur was well into his "deer in headlights" phase, Ivan couldn't remember how to assert himself, McClellan was hit or miss in even playing, Wise was a freshman, Hill was raw on offense, and nobody else really mattered on offense.

Again, I've never been a "Marcus" guy. But for a bottom-100 prospect to come in and put up the numbers he did as a freshman and sophomore is very impressive. Not many can waltz on to campus and as a starter put up 16/17 ppg, 5/6 rebounds as a wing-forward.

Again, we don't necessarily disagree. Only agree to varying extents.

BTW, what were the lines of every other Wildcat in those games you listed for Marcus?

Given that several were blowouts, I'm guessing pretty poor.

I'd also venture to guess that many of the shots missed were threes. Open threes. His jumper was a bit streaky, but was fairly consistant, and was money when on.

I can't criticize you for being upset with Marcus for leaving Tucson last summer, messing with his shot, then returning with a goofed up form that affected his distance shooting percentages. That's a valid critique and one I share. But we need to remember he was a sophomore, and share some of the blame for the much more experienced seniors who've failed Arizona two year's straight. As for the assist/turnover ratio, that's fair, but how many more assists could he have had if a teammate or two were able to hit a jumper or a three? Chase went cold, McClellan was out, and nobody else was a consistant threat.

I've never blamed the 200 pound SG for having a poor rebounding game. He's not a forward, not a rebounding forward anyways, and even if taller, he's so slight of frame that he's easily nudged out of position buy someone with a few more pounds and fundamentals of boxing out.

As for Salim, I'm talking about scorer as an all-around role, not how many points one puts up. If you look back at Arenas' teams, he never stood out statistically, but you knew if he was made the focal point, he'd average 20-per. I got that same feeling with Marcus. Salim was the focal point and never averaged 20.

BTW, since that 2001 team, Salim is by far my favorite Wildcat. I'm a fan of good shooting players. Always have been. Some like dunks. Some like slashers. I like jumpers. So, for me to be saying this of Marcus means something.

Maybe I'm a bit too touchy with the Marcus criticism. A lot of people hated watching Florida play. I loved them. They always hustled. They did whatever it took. Sometimes they had some rough shooting spells, but because they understood shooting wasn't the only way to win, they overcame. At times this year I got the sense that Marcus was the only player on offense who gave a damn. Hill started to show some fire, but wasn't developed enough to be the force he wished to be. Maybe Marcus didn't give a damn late in the loss to Purdue. He probably had the NBA on his mind, so for that, I don't blame you for holding a grudge.

I'm just as disgusted with Arizona's last two seasons as the next fan, but I won't lay blame for it solely on one player when nobody around him stepped up.

In all, I can't be mad at a 6-7, 200 pound SG for playing two seasons out of position at PF, learning the ins and outs on the fly for a team who apsires to a top-10 team season after season. He was asked a lot, in my opinion, maybe more than he could give consistantly. Very few others have been as poorly utilized by Olson, though it was certainly out of need. Still, if he struggles down low against UCLA and Staford, I don't blame him. They have great defensive frontlines.

BTW, I don't know what is with us Arizona fans, but we just can't write short posts when in engaged in discussion :)

As for moderator, I'll PM ya with the info...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Wow, can you get any lamer?

The original poster was trying to be funny because we always bring up here that no one spells Elliott right.

And as for who gives a fuck about Sean Elliott - you should! He gave a couple million dollars out of his pocket as a loan to the organization to build a state of the art practice facility. A practice facility that helps keep the Spurs players healthy, in shape and bonded as a team.

And even if you want to discount everything he's done on the court and in the San Antonio community, he's about as diehard of a Spurs fan as you can get.

PWNED.

Next.

Dayum, I'm still getting over the fact that a supposed Spurs fan just dissed Sean Elliott... :dizzy