Fox Sports: "Did Donaghy fix Game 3 of Suns-Spurs?"

[Fast Dunk]

Very interesting article and a good read.

Hope you don't get your feelings hurt.


Did Donaghy fix Game 3 of Suns-Spurs?

Kevin Hench
FOXSports.com, Updated 3 hours ago

There aren't many dark days in the Valley of the Sun in mid-summer, but Friday must have been pretty gloomy.

Just when Phoenix Suns fans were moving through the acceptance phase of their grief over last year's unjust playoff exit comes another knee to the groin.
As if the playoff suspensions of Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw (in exchange for instigator Robery Horry) hadn't been a big enough miscarriage of justice, now comes news that NBA referee Tim Donaghy is under FBI investigation for betting on basketball. There are even allegations of mob ties.

While those charges have yet to be proven, there is very little debate among the basketball cognoscenti as to what was the most dubiously officiated game in this spring's playoffs. It was Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs Western Conference semifinals on May 12.

It was a bewildering carnival of bad calls, bad non-calls and egregiously late calls.

Who did that game? Eddie F. Rush, Greg Willard and Tim Donaghy.

The Suns' gut-wrenching six-game loss to the Spurs had already plunged their fans into the grief cycle, only then it was due largely to David Stern's failure to insert a measure of mitigating sanity to his zero-tolerance bench-leaving policy.

The pain played out like this:


Denial — This can't be happening. Robert Horry didn't just hip-check Steve Nash into the scorer's table with the result being the suspensions of our only low-post scorer and best low-post passer. This cannot be happening.

Anger — We hate you, David Stern! We'd like to see Charles Barkley throw you through a plate glass window at Dan Majerle's bar!

Bargaining — Please, please, let us squeak out Game 5. Let the series go seven games. We'll forget all about the unjust suspensions.

Depression — We lost. We're doomed. It's over. Our window of opportunity is closing. Nash is 33. That was our shot.

Acceptance — We're down, but not out. We just signed Grant Hill. Stoudemire will be another year away from microfracture surgery. Leandro Barbosa is getting better by the minute.
And then whammo! It looks like the NBA has a dirty ref and he called a pivotal playoff game that the Suns lost. So, for beleaguered Suns fans, the stages of grieving begin anew.


Denial — There is simply no way an official in a major American sport would do this. This isn't Italian soccer, dammit.

Anger — Was Game 3 the game when Bruce Bowen essentially assaulted Nash from start to finish? Was Bowen really whistled for only two fouls? Did Nash really shoot only three free throws? Was that the game where the Suns were in the midst of a run-out when they were interrupted by a foul call so late it just had to be an inadvertent whistle?

Bargaining — Okay. Please, Federal Bureau of Investigation, just tell us Donaghy hadn't bet on that game. Please just tell us that a pile of mob money didn't come down on the Spurs in Game 3.

Depression — Ah, what's the difference? It's not like Stern is going to give us a do-over.

Acceptance — Probably never.
First, Game 3 will have to be put under a microscope. Hard to believe it will look any better under a jeweler's loupe than it did on TV.

Off the top of my head, the worst non-call — after Bowen forced a turnover by chopping down on Nash's off hand as the point guard was crossing over — came right in front of Rush, not Donaghy.

One other critical officiating error was a whistle on a clean block by Stoudemire, who played only 21 minutes due to foul trouble.

And then there was the whistle delivered from Shangri-La. The Suns had forced a miss, secured the ball and were pushing it up court when a foul was called, retroactive to the shot attempt. If it turns out that Donaghy made this particular call — after having a couple of seconds to think about it — it will look very bad.

The Spurs were favored by four in Game 3 and won by seven, 108-101. They shot nine more free throws than the Suns, a perfectly reasonable gap between an interior-scoring team and a jump-shooting team. While the risk of fixing a playoff game is increased by the closer scrutiny of the game, it is easier to place large bets without setting off red flags because there's much more money being wagered on a playoff game than a regular season game.

If Donaghy is convicted of fixing any games over the last two seasons — during which the FBI was monitoring his games — how will Stern, who must have precious little credibility in Phoenix, ever convince Suns fans that they weren't the victims of a fix? I mean, besides the one he himself sanctioned after Game 4. (And if it turns out Donaghy did conspire to fix Game 3, how happy will Suns fans be with the FBI for allowing their team to be an unwitting victim in a two-year-old sting operation?)

For years Stern has been dismissing the cries of conspiracy theorists and fining anyone who dared open his mouth about the officiating. He even went so far as to threaten to throw Jeff Van Gundy out of the league.


If during a criminal court proceeding it comes to light that Donaghy was influencing the outcome of games, is Stern prepared to return any fine money levied against a player, coach or owner who criticized what turned out to be crooked officiating?

Former Orlando Magic coach Brian Hill was fined $25,000 after complaining bitterly about the officiating in a game Donaghy did on March 6, 2006.

Stern could conceivably return that fine money if it turns out Donaghy was in the bag. But what if evidence emerges that Donaghy had money on the Spurs in Game 3?

If that's the case, Stern's refusal to adjudicate the Horry-Stoudemire-Diaw non-fight fairly will have compounded a criminal act. How could he ever make things right in Phoenix?

He might start by awarding Phoenix, one of the finalists, the 2009 All-Star Game. But would he dare show up?

Suns fans may still be grieving.



http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7045572?MSNHPHMA

[Switchman]

God I hope we meet the Suns in the playoffs next year.

[Beno Udrih]

Didn't you post this already under your other user name?

[Fast Dunk]

Didn't you post this already under your other user name?


Whatever dude!!

Are you a conspiracy theorist as well?

[zrinkill]

No ..... but he is the reason the Suns were there in the first place .....


Donaghy was the ref in more games that they won than they lost.

[Beno Udrih]

Whatever dude!!

Are you a conspiracy theorist as well?
:lol You're such a hater. How does your butt feel when you see pictures like this?

http://www.nba.com/media/cel6_ADB_070614.jpg

[BigBeezie]

Hmmm

I don't think the Suns were favored in that game. Not sure...

[Fast Dunk]

Hmmm

I don't think the Suns were favored in that game. Not sure...

"The Spurs were favored by four in Game 3 and won by seven, 108-101."

[zrinkill]

Donaghy was the ref in more games that the Suns won than games that they lost. He helped them win all year long.

[Gino20]

Did his other buddies help him out in game 4 of the series as well???

[FromWayDowntown]

This was a non-interesting thread when it was posted 12 hours ago.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74444

[Fast Dunk]

I didn't notice it was posted already...

But I see it was closed!!!

Bitter mods???

[FromWayDowntown]

I didn't notice it was posted already...

But I see it was closed!!!

Bitter mods???

Bitter Suns fans rehashing a stupid discussion.

[spursrule32]

wait a second - let me get this straight; he helped the favorite cover the spread? Doesn't sound like a very good bet. If anything it would be the other way around. Let it go - you root for a team that will always be a runner up (if that.)

[Beno Udrih]

I didn't notice it was posted already...

But I see it was closed!!!

Bitter mods???
:spin You're the Spurs hater on a Spurs forum 24/7 and you're calling mods haters?

[Kriz-Maxima]

when will people get over the fact that the spurs had to beat the suns 4 times to advance.

[Sweetey]

"The Spurs were favored by four in Game 3 and won by seven, 108-101."

And ???
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/jlo49/lebronsweep.gif

[judaspriestess]

well lets just say hypothetically he did SO instead of the suns losing by maybe 2 points he is guilty of a few questionable calls so the Spurs could beat the spread and he could collect his money. :lol

No matter what the suns of bitches would have lost.

[phyzik]

Arinkill's Signature covers this topic perfectly...



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/cartman_tears.gif




END FUCKING THREAD!

[RC's Boss]

wait a second - let me get this straight; he helped the favorite cover the spread? Doesn't sound like a very good bet. If anything it would be the other way around. Let it go - you root for a team that will always be a runner up (if that.)
Nice observation... You are the fucking shit. :toast Witness that shit broom boy :lol

[spurscenter]

GREAT ARTICLE

THANKS FOR POSTING IT


I love it.


I think Stern needs to return all FINE money he got.

You cant go back and change games that were played.

Just like you cant take away Bonds HR's now.

I love that this finally is getting exposed.

NBA Refs control games if they want to and this proves it.

I think Stern has known about this for 6 months now at least.

What a nightmare for league

[tmtcsc]

Remember when Donaghy got the Suns to jump off the bench in Game 4 ? That was classic.

[Fast Dunk]

And there's more:

This is from ESPN:

The Unofficial Word on Donaghy:

"The feeling among many referees was that Garretson and Donaghy, the two senior referees, could have been much more assertive in calming things down before the incident hit its flash point when a fan threw a cup of ice at Artest as he lay prone on the scorer’s table." (Chris Sheridan’s ESPN blog)

"Donaghy also was involved in another controversy a few years back when he engaged in a shouting match with Rasheed Wallace on the loading dock of The Rose Garden in Portland, an incident that led to a seven-game suspension for Wallace, who was then with the Portland Trail Blazers. Donaghy and the two other referees who had worked that game passed by Wallace as they walked to their cars, and Wallace was said to have threatened Donaghy, who had assessed him a technical foul earlier that night during a Grizzlies-Blazers game." (Chris Sheridan’s ESPN blog)

I don’t know what to make about most of this information. One number stands out to me: the fifteen playoff games he officiated. This is where the stakes were highest and Donaghy could have done the most damage to the game.

For example, Donaghy officiated game three of the Phoenix-San Antonio playoff series. The Spurs won this game by a score of 108-101. But did they really win? What about those two questionable foul calls on Amare Stoudemire early in game three?

Yes, outside influences could have altered the outcome of the Western Conference semi-finals. There’s no evidence of wrongdoing. Bu the presence of Donaghy is enough to throw everything in doubt. I’m not trying to take anything away from Spur fans, but, for me, an unknown factor has overshadowed and clouded this result.

In fact, the San Antonio faithful should be furious because a ref, whose presence is supposed to protect the game, has done the exact opposite and compromised their win. It doesn’t matter that there’s no evidence. Donaghy’s presence suddenly makes everything murky.

This incident should send a cold shiver up the spine of NBA head office. As more evidence is uncovered, their shivers will only get worse. And the integrity of the sport may be called into question in a very ugly scandal.

[spursreport]

Fastdunk=louis=louis2=mermaidtime :)

[spursrule32]

yeah again - where's the benefit of a favorite's spread - the odds are not as good if you were betting for them to not cover. This guy's an idiot and what's even more pathetic is that you're grasping for straws just like the suns defense in trying to guard Duncan. What about all the missed calls on Duncan. What about Amare picking up cheap fouls in the other games b/c of his immaturity? Was Donaghy reffing those games? Just post all of the phoenix sports writers comments after the Horry foul - just as legitmate as this moron.

[Fast Dunk]

Sure !! Whatever!! hahaha

<Kori Ellis>

[UV Ray]

Breaking News: Vince McMahon to replace NBA Commissioner David Stern.

[RC's Boss]

Sure !! Whatever!! hahaha

<Kori Ellis>
Did you read the post above. Logic can't be fought my son... It is futile.

[spursrule32]

sad thing is that it really doesn't matter in regards to the cavs - any of the 8 teams in the western confernce playoffs probably could've beaten the over hyped cavs. Just be glad that you played an injured wizards team and a pistons team that was in a funk. Your team was an embarrassment to the eastern conference.

[Fast Dunk]

sad thing is that it really doesn't matter in regards to the cavs - any of the 8 teams in the western confernce playoffs probably could've beaten the over hyped cavs. Just be glad that you played an injured wizards team and a pistons team that was in a funk. Your team was an embarrassment to the eastern conference.

Games are fixed in the NBA and I'm pretty sure, Donaghy is not the only crooked ref in the league.

Just watching the last seconds of Game 3 of the Finals (Yet again another Game 3) when LBJ was clearly and blatanly fouled in a 3-point shot attempt makes me puke!!!

[tophy7]

For example, Donaghy officiated game three of the Phoenix-San Antonio playoff series. The Spurs won this game by a score of 108-101. But did they really win? What about those two questionable foul calls on Amare Stoudemire early in game three?

You mean the one where he jumped on top of Finley's back as he was going for a layup or the one where he fouled Horry on a layup (where even the commentators said it was a silly foul).
It might help if you actually watch the games yourself.
Funny they don't mention Duncan's bogus fouls in the same game.

[tophy7]

Games are fixed in the NBA and I'm pretty sure, Donaghy is not the only crooked ref in the league.

Just watching the last seconds of Game 3 of the Finals (Yet again another Game 3) when LBJ was clearly and blatanly fouled in a 3-point shot attempt makes me puke!!!

Yeah let's give Lebron 3 free throws and watch him miss 2 of them
:lol

[spursrule32]

you should have puked the whole series when overly hyped lebron failed to show up - wow you're an idiot

[Shred]

Remember when Donaghy got the Suns to jump off the bench in Game 4 ? That was classic.

Finally...we're getting somewhere. Spur fans admitting at long last the unfair suspensions cost the Suns the series. For the longest time, they kept insisting the suspensions--like the crooked ref--didn't affect the outcome.

[td4mvp3]

Finally...we're getting somewhere. Spur fans admitting at long last the unfair suspensions cost the Suns the series. For the longest time, they kept insisting the suspensions--like the crooked ref--didn't affect the outcome.
yeah, i couldn't believe they suspended them for the next two games and retroactively did it so that they had to change the score and allow the spurs to win game one. just over the top on the league's part.

[greywheel]

yeah again - where's the benefit of a favorite's spread - the odds are not as good if you were betting for them to not cover.

From my understanding, he was doing this for the mob. The benefit is not dying.
The mob has their own bookies, so they could have been fixing the outcome for that reason, not just Vegas bets.

Disclaimer: Everything I know about the mob, I learned from watching movies.

[SpurYank]

Your children and their children's children will be asking that the Spurs give up the NBA championship for 2007.

We'll tell them the same thing: Championship teams rise to the occasion, overcome obstacles, and come through at the final bell. This was a four-game series. The Suns had two FULL games to make their championship caliber shine.

They didn't have any.

[UV Ray]

Did Rose Kennedy own a black dress?

Is a pig's pecker pork?

Are a bull's balls beef?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Finally...we're getting somewhere. Spur fans admitting at long last the unfair suspensions cost the Suns the series. For the longest time, they kept insisting the suspensions--like the crooked ref--didn't affect the outcome.





get over it..losers commiserate.. live in the past.. never let things go. your team got it's ass handed to them in the most important game of the year..game 6. please explain that one? did you have your whole team for that game?

[Russ]

The Spurs are 8-3 vs Phoenix in the playoffs in the Nash era. One ref can't shave that many points.

[Shred]

Obsess much? No amount of rationalization will cover up the fact this championship was tainted.

[CubanMustGo]

Obsessed? Who keeps posting crap about Phoneyix losing here?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Obsess much? No amount of rationalization will cover up the fact this championship was tainted.



Tainted? Thta's freagin ilarious. Ok man once we beat you guys AGAIN next year we will another off season of your conspiarcy theories.... nice move by your new gm..letting the only guy on your team that has shown that he can make TD work for his shots.. great move..

[HJNTX]

God I hope we meet the Suns in the playoffs next year.

...in order to kick their whiney asses again .... I am sick of their titty baby crap .. it's really gotten old ..


yuck!!! :vomit:

[T Park]

Just watching the last seconds of Game 3 of the Finals (Yet again another Game 3) when LBJ was clearly and blatanly fouled in a 3-point shot attempt makes me puke!!!

yeah because the NBA didn't want Lesweep to win.

WTF?

Fucking trolls.

[tophy7]

Obsess much? No amount of rationalization will cover up the fact this championship was tainted.

Only thing tainted is Nash's "MVPs"

[dbestpro]

Games are fixed in the NBA and I'm pretty sure, Donaghy is not the only crooked ref in the league.

Just watching the last seconds of Game 3 of the Finals (Yet again another Game 3) when LBJ was clearly and blatanly fouled in a 3-point shot attempt makes me puke!!!

Then puke. Just don't puke in Texas.

[Shred]

Dance, my monkeys!!! :downspin:

[dbestpro]

Obsess much? No amount of rationalization will cover up the fact this championship was tainted.
Okay, in Pheonix you can consider out championship tainted. In fact why don't you make believe that you've won the last 20 championships if that will make you feel better. The rest of known world will recognize that the Spurs won the championship and all the intelligent people know that you don't fix games to go with the spread. Duh!

[ploto]

All fans should realize that any game he reffed will be scrutinized and that was the biggest game he reffed this play-offs, IIRC.

Also to note- you can impact games by affecting the over and under easier than the point spread. Give a lot of free throws- get some defenders in foul trouble and the point totals probably go up.

Bill Simmons thoughts on that game and others. I did not see this in this forum. Sorry, if it is elsewhere.


When news of the scandal broke on Friday, as J.A. Adande pointed out in his column that day, every diehard NBA fan had the same reaction. They weren't thinking, "I can't believe it!" or "Oh my God, how could this happen?" They were thinking, "Which one was it?"


If the allegations are true, Tim Donaghy didn't just violate the integrity of the league and rig some games. There's a good chance he altered the course of the 2007 championship. Only three teams had a chance last year: Dallas, Phoenix and San Antonio. When Dallas choked against Golden State in the opening round, the NBA's refusal to fix a broken playoff system came back to haunt them in Round 2, thanks to a Spurs-Suns matchup that suddenly doubled as the NBA Finals. In Game 1, San Antonio stole homecourt advantage with a convincing win that everyone remembers because Steve Nash busted his nose open. The Suns rallied back with a blowout win in Game 2. Here's what I wrote after the third game -- the Spurs were favored by four, with an over/under of 200.5 -- after San Antonio prevailed, 108-101, thanks to Amare Stoudemire playing just 21 minutes because of foul trouble:


Congratulations to Greg Willard, Tim Donaghy and Eddie F. Rush for giving us the most atrociously officiated game of the playoffs so far: Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series. Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington and Violet Palmer must have been outraged that they weren't involved in this mess. Good golly. Most of the calls favored the Spurs, but I don't even think the refs were biased -- they were so incompetent that there was no rhyme or reason to anything that was happening. Other than the latest call in NBA history (a shooting foul for Ginobili whistled three seconds after the play, when everyone was already running in the other direction), my favorite moment happened near the end, when the game was already over and they called a cheap bump on Bruce Bowen against Nash, so the cameras caught Mike D'Antoni (the most entertaining coach in the league if he's not getting calls) screaming sarcastically, "Why start now? Why bother?" What a travesty. Not since the cocaine era from 1978-1986 has the league faced a bigger ongoing issue than crappy officiating.

Now ...

Before the Donaghy scandal broke, if you told me there was a compromised official working a 2007 playoff game and made me guess the game, I would have selected Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns series. There were some jaw-dropping calls throughout, specifically, the aforementioned Ginobili call and Bowen hacking Nash on a no-call drive that ABC replayed from its basket camera (leading to a technical from D'Antoni). Both times, Mike Breen felt obligated to break the unwritten code that play-by-play announcers don't challenge calls and openly questioned what had happened. The whole game was strange. Something seemed off about it.

At the time, I assumed the league had given us another "coincidence" where three subpar refs (and calling that crew "subpar" is being kind) were assigned to a Game 3 in which, for the interest of a long series, everyone was better off having the home team prevail ... just like I anticipated another "coincidence" in which one of the best referees would work Game 4 to give Phoenix a fair shake in a game that, statistically, they were more likely to win. After all, it's easier to win Game 4 on the road than Game 3, when the fans are pumped up and the home team is happy to be home.(Which is exactly how it played out. Steve Javie worked Game 4, a guy who Jeff Van Gundy deemed "the best ref in the league" during the Finals. Hmmmm.) Look, this could have been an elaborate series of connected flukes. I'm just telling you that none of it surprised me. Which is part of the problem.

But here's what I didn't expect: That a potentially crooked ref was working that game.

Imagine being a Suns fan right now. You just spent the last two months believing that your team got screwed by the Stoudemire/Diaw suspensions, that you would have won Game 1 if Nash didn't get hurt, that you would have taken Game 3 if you hadn't been screwed by the officials, that you would have cruised in Game 5 if two of your best guys weren't suspended for running towards their best player as he lay in a crumpled heap. Now it looks like an allegedly compromised referee worked Game 3.

Well, how much did Donaghy affect the game? How many calls did he whistle on Stoudemire? How many of Bowen's potential fouls did he not call? Was he the seemingly incompetent schmuck who made that three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili? Did Tim Donaghy cost you that game?

If David Stern want to do right by the fans, then he should order NBA TV to re-run the tape of Game 3. We need answers. We need to know for sure. Hell, they can start a series called "NBA Hardwood Classics: The Tim Donaghy Collection" and we'll spend the rest of the summer combing through games and figuring out how many Donaghy could have fixed. Like Game 6 of the Raptors-Nets series, which New Jersey won by a point in the final seconds. Did he swing that one? What about Game 2 of the Orlando-Detroit series, when the Magic rallied for a late cover in the final seconds with Donaghy jogging around? What about the Heat-Knicks game from last February in which the Knicks were given a 39-8 free throw advantage and covered a 4.5-point spread by 1.5 points? Did Donaghy call those two technical fouls on the Miami coaches? Is there footage of Pat Riley screaming at him?


I want to see all five playoff games that Donaghy worked last spring, as well as that Heat-Knicks game and any other contest that's relevant. Before we worry about justice, let's get some answers first. Especially for Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns series. I left that series believing that the Spurs were better, that their offensive execution was unparalleled, that Tim Duncan was the best player on the court, that they would have figured out a way to win that series whether the suspensions happened or not. Now? I'm not so sure. What if an allegedly crooked referee hadn't been working Game 3? What if the Suns won that game? What then?

The rest of the article is here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070722

[J.T.]

The Suns still got owned in an elimination game, and if that doesn't prove that they shouldn't have been on the same court as the Spurs, I don't know what does.

[td4mvp3]

All fans should realize that any game he reffed will be scrutinized and that was the biggest game he reffed this play-offs, IIRC.

Also to note- you can impact games by affecting the over and under easier than the point spread. Give a lot of free throws- get some defenders in foul trouble and the point totals probably go up.

Bill Simmons thoughts on that game and others. I did not see this in this forum. Sorry, if it is elsewhere.







The rest of the article is here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070722
to answer his last question, they should have won game 6, a la the pistons, and taken game 7 at home or just not dropped the first game of the series. all of this stuff about a tainted series is bull because this is not college. one game does not decide everything. everyone saw the heat win straight after dropping the first two final games; the suns should have done the same.

[exstatic]

:lmao The Suns don't continue to lose playoff series because they drop games on our court. They lose because they can't hold serve on their own court. The Suns are 0-3 in series in 2003, 2005, and 2007 because they let us waltz in and lay a 7-2 record on their court.

Loser pussies.

[exstatic]

Dance, Phoenix monkeys, dance!!

[HJNTX]

Dance, my monkeys!!! :downspin:


It's the Sun's fans that are dancin' ...BIG LOSERS--------- again ... :rolleyes

[Shaolin-Style]

Why does anything associated with Fox come off as terrible "look at me I'm controversial" crap?

Amare Stoudemire got in foul trouble in games besides game 3 too, and it wasn't because of a crooked ref, it's because the guy is a bad and sloppy defender.

[exstatic]

Stoudemire committed the second most fouls per game (3.7) and overall fouls (295) in the NBA last year. He's basically a stupid defender who gets caught out of position on most plays. Phoenix will miss Thomas SO MUCH next year.

[Fast Dunk]

Sure whatever!!

[Shred]

Stoudemire committed the second most fouls per game (3.7) and overall fouls (295) in the NBA last year. He's basically a stupid defender who gets caught out of position on most plays. Phoenix will miss Thomas SO MUCH next year.

The obsession continues....

[Clutch20]

And there's more:

For example, Donaghy officiated game three of the Phoenix-San Antonio playoff series. The Spurs won this game by a score of 108-101. But did they really win? What about those two questionable foul calls on Amare Stoudemire early in game three?................


Didn't D'Antoni get chastised for pulling Amare out and not letting him play early on in the game with those two fouls because "these are the playoffs?"

[zrinkill]

The obsession continues....

You are on a Spurs board talking about obsession .....

:lol thats funny

[td4mvp21]

You are on a Spurs board talking about obsession .....

:lol thats funny

[angel_luv]

Just when Phoenix Suns fans were moving through the acceptance phase of their grief over last year's unjust playoff exit comes another knee to the groin.

:rolleyes

Win or go home. Seems pretty clean cut and fair to me.

What part of Arizona does the article author hail from?

[UV Ray]

:rolleyes

What part of Arizona does the article author hail from?

Wishful thinking.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's interesting to me how some Suns fans can throw rhetorical grenades around, whining about their team's loss to the Spurs and insinuating that things somehow weren't on the up-and-up, only to castigate any Spurs fan who responds as being the party who is unwilling to let that series go.

The obvious solution for Spurs fans is to ignore the posts and let those Suns fans who wish to pout and whine do just that. The silence -- the lack of any responses to their belligerence -- might actually cause them to leave.

[UV Ray]

It's interesting to me how some Suns fans can throw rhetorical grenades around, whining about their team's loss to the Spurs and insinuating that things somehow weren't on the up-and-up, only to castigate any Spurs fan who responds as being the party who is unwilling to let that series go.

The obvious solution for Spurs fans is to ignore the posts and let those Suns fans who wish to pout and whine do just that. The silence -- the lack of any responses to their belligerence -- might actually cause them to leave.

Again, wishful thinking.

[bdictjames]

Its already done, nobody will remember this 50-something years from now. We got the trophy and they didn't, the media just wants to hope to put an asterisk to our ring.

[Shred]

Simmons - ESPN Page 2 (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070722&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1)

So that's two significant problems. Problem No. 1 will fade away over time, although it will never completely disappear. Problem No. 2 can be fixed, although it will take some major work. But Problem No. 3 can't be fixed. If the allegations are true, Tim Donaghy didn't just violate the integrity of the league and rig some games. There's a good chance he altered the course of the 2007 championship. Only three teams had a chance last year: Dallas, Phoenix and San Antonio. When Dallas choked against Golden State in the opening round, the NBA's refusal to fix a broken playoff system came back to haunt it in Round 2, thanks to a Spurs-Suns matchup that suddenly doubled as the NBA Finals. In Game 1, San Antonio stole home-court advantage with a convincing win that everyone remembers because Steve Nash busted his nose open. The Suns rallied back with a blowout win in Game 2. Here's what I wrote after the third game -- the Spurs were favored by four, with an over/under of 200.5 -- after San Antonio prevailed, 108-101, thanks to Amare Stoudemire playing just 21 minutes because of foul trouble:


Congratulations to Greg Willard, Tim Donaghy and Eddie F. Rush for giving us the most atrociously officiated game of the playoffs so far: Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series. Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington and Violet Palmer must have been outraged that they weren't involved in this mess. Good golly. Most of the calls favored the Spurs, but I don't even think the refs were biased -- they were so incompetent that there was no rhyme or reason to anything that was happening. Other than the latest call in NBA history (a shooting foul for Manu Ginobili whistled three seconds after the play, when everyone was already running in the other direction), my favorite moment happened near the end, when the game was already over and they called a cheap bump on Bruce Bowen against Nash, so the cameras caught Mike D'Antoni (the most entertaining coach in the league if he's not getting calls) screaming sarcastically, "Why start now? Why bother?" What a travesty. Not since the cocaine era from 1978-1986 has the league faced a bigger ongoing issue than crappy officiating.

Now ...



THE ZAPRUDER FILM
Follow-up note: A few hours after this column was posted on Sunday morning, an NBA fan posted "highlights" from Game 3 on YouTube that reveal Donaghy making a number of questionable calls during that Spurs-Suns game, including the three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili that I mentioned in my column (and two months ago as well).

After the call is made, play-by-play announcer Mike Breen calls it a "late whistle" three different times, then a replay of the play shows that there was no contact, followed by Breen saying "doesn't look like there was much there" and partner Jon Barry adding, "I don't know what he saw!"

Collectively, it's a damning collection of anti-Phoenix calls, although not all of them were made by Donaghy. Expect the highlights of this game to eventually become the Zapruder Film of the Donaghy Scandal. Sorry, Phoenix fans.

Before the Donaghy scandal broke, if you told me there was a compromised official working a 2007 playoff game and made me guess the game, I would have selected Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns series. There were some jaw-dropping calls throughout, specifically, the aforementioned Ginobili call and Bowen hacking Nash on a no-call drive that ABC replayed from its basket camera (leading to a technical from D'Antoni). Both times, Mike Breen felt obligated to break the unwritten code that play-by-play announcers -- don't challenge calls and openly questioned what had happened. The whole game was strange. Something seemed off about it.

At the time, I assumed the league had given us another "coincidence" where three subpar refs (and calling that crew "subpar" is being kind) were assigned to a Game 3 in which, for the interest of a long series, everyone was better off having the home team prevail ... just like I anticipated another "coincidence" in which one of the best referees would work Game 4 to give Phoenix a fair shake in a game that, statistically, they were more likely to win. After all, it's easier to win Game 4 on the road than Game 3, when the fans are pumped up and the home team is happy to be home.(Which is exactly how it played out. Steve Javie worked Game 4, a guy who Jeff Van Gundy deemed "the best ref in the league" during the Finals. Hmmmm.) Look, this could have been an elaborate series of connected flukes. I'm just telling you that none of it surprised me. Which is part of the problem.

But here's what I didn't expect: That a potentially crooked ref was working that game.

Imagine being a Suns fan right now. You just spent the past two months believing that your team got screwed by the Stoudemire/Diaw suspensions, that you would have won Game 1 if Nash didn't get hurt, that you would have taken Game 3 if you hadn't been screwed by the officials, that you would have cruised in Game 5 if two of your best guys weren't suspended for running towards their best player as he lay in a crumpled heap. Now it looks like an allegedly compromised referee worked Game 3.

Well, how much did Donaghy affect the game? How many calls did he whistle on Stoudemire? How many of Bowen's potential fouls did he not call? Was he the seemingly incompetent schmuck who made that three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili? Did Tim Donaghy cost you that game?

If David Stern wants to do right by the fans, then he should order NBA TV to rerun the tape of Game 3. We need answers. We need to know for sure. Hell, they can start a series called "NBA Hardwood Classics: The Tim Donaghy Collection" and we'll spend the rest of the summer combing through games and figuring out how many Donaghy could have fixed. Like Game 6 of the Raptors-Nets series, which New Jersey won by a point in the final seconds. Did he swing that one? What about Game 2 of the Orlando-Detroit series, when the Magic rallied for a late cover in the final seconds with Donaghy jogging around? What about the Heat-Knicks game from last February in which the Knicks were given a 39-8 free-throw advantage and covered a 4.5-point spread by 1.5 points? Did Donaghy call those two technical fouls on the Miami coaches? Is there footage of Pat Riley screaming at him?

The Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U)

[UV Ray]

Its already done, nobody will remember this 50-something years from now. We got the trophy and they didn't, the media just wants to hope to put an asterisk to our ring.


Enjoy those 50 years.

[UV Ray]

You're right LJ. Being on All Ignore is underrated.

[Mister Sinister]

Finally...we're getting somewhere. Spur fans admitting at long last the unfair suspensions cost the Suns the series. For the longest time, they kept insisting the suspensions--like the crooked ref--didn't affect the outcome.
And I can't believe the NBA enforced a rule that's been on the books for a while now, a rule that's also been strictly enforced. They *TOTALLY* wanted the flashy, run-and-gun, No-D, all-offense, big-market Spurs to win another title!

[UV Ray]

And I can't believe the NBA enforced a rule that's been on the books for a while now, a rule that's also been strictly enforced. They *TOTALLY* wanted the flashy, run-and-gun, No-D, all-offense, big-market Spurs to win another title!

Maybe they really wanted the good guy image of TD. Maybe Stern thought the image of the unassuming TD would play better in Peoria than the Black Jesus tattoos and perceived arrogance and ignorance of Amare.

[Switchman]

Christ.

Why are there so many fucking haters that can't accept that the Spurs win every other year. They have arguably the best PF of all time. A frenchman who can score in the paint at will, an Argentinean who is fearless, League veterans who step up in the clutch, and role players who know their role and do work son.

But no, everyone wants the Suns to win because they have a little white Canadian baller and Black jesus on their team.

I'm getting fucking sick of everyone and their god damn mother trying to find any flaw they can about the Spurs gold.

I can't wait to see us repeat and then hear what people will say next.

[td4mvp3]

all the hubbub about the ref fixing the game got me to re-watch it. the ref crap is bs. among the highlights:

-- amare missed a dunk late in the 4th

-- any question about his early foul trouble can't be blamed on the accused ref because he didn't make those calls. what's more, the first was amare knocking down finley and the other was amare sliding underneath horry. on top of that, the only questionable foul of his 5 that night was when oberto stopped in front of amare and amare knocked him down away from the action, thus an offensive foul.

-- raja bell hit 4-4 in the first half but didn't get the ball or take a shot in the second half

-- no one complained about bowen holding nash until the fourth quarter, mostly because parker and ginobili guarded nash for much of the night up until then. on top of that, after the infamous d'antoni crap fit of "why call it now?!" nonsense (overlooking the fact that there was no problem up until the fourth quarter, and thus nothing to call until then), the refs started calling it.

-- bowen's knee to the groin, often sited as evidence of the spurs getting away with stuff, was actually called as an offensive foul. plus, he did the exact same move the next time the spurs had the ball, except nash wasn't crowding him this time

-- no foul called when marion raked gino's eye

-- the spurs had a double-digit lead for a good part of the fourth, and were up 9 at the 2:35 mark.

[Shred]

AT LEAST 1 ref from that crew was on the take. If you don't think that calls the entire series--the entire playoffs--into question, you're fooling yourself.

[UV Ray]

Christ.

But no, everyone wants the Suns to win because they have a little white Canadian baller and Black jesus on their team.


Dude, read the post above yours.

[mikejones99]

This will just make the Spurs play even better next year to prove all the stupid doubter wrong, AGAIN. Look for 70+ wins from the Spurs to make these morons shut up.

[Mister Sinister]

AT LEAST 1 ref from that crew was on the take. If you don't think that calls the entire series--the entire playoffs--into question, you're fooling yourself.
You want some moldy old cheese to go with that bitter whine of yours?

[td4mvp3]

AT LEAST 1 ref from that crew was on the take. If you don't think that calls the entire series--the entire playoffs--into question, you're fooling yourself.
because the depleted wizards were heavy favorites against the cavs. :rolleyes

[mikejones99]

Wait till the NFL fools get caught, then you will see some real crazy shit.

[UV Ray]

This will just make the Spurs play even better next year to prove all the stupid doubter wrong, AGAIN. Look for 70+ wins from the Spurs to make these morons shut up.

Will never happen. Book it.

[FromWayDowntown]

-- any question about his early foul trouble can't be blamed on the accused ref because he didn't make those calls. what's more, the first was amare knocking down finley and the other was amare sliding underneath horry. on top of that, the only questionable foul of his 5 that night was when oberto stopped in front of amare and amare knocked him down away from the action, thus an offensive foul.

I haven't re-watched all of Game 3, but I did watch the early stages of the game this morning. Your statement about who called the first two fouls on Amare is incorrect. Donaghy did, in fact, call both of those fouls. But your descriptions of the fouls is correct and there was no doubt with the broadcasters that each was a legitimate call.

I'll also note that on one of the Suns' first 5 possessions, Nash took Parker down to the block and appeared to shove off. Donaghy was the official closest to that play -- one that could have easily been called an offensive foul on Nash -- and didn't make a call.


-- bowen's knee to the groin, often sited as evidence of the spurs getting away with stuff, was actually called as an offensive foul. plus, he did the exact same move the next time the spurs had the ball, except nash wasn't crowding him this time

Even that play wasn't a Donaghy call. Ed Rush made that call -- so, Ed Rush is the official who refused to give Bowen a technical or a flagrant on that play.

[Fillmoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We need to start a whiny loser bitch forum for all these pissant fans from other teams trying to take the huge jump in logic from point shaving here and there by one referee to an outright conspiracy by the NBA to help a small market team in a small TV market win a title.

[Fillmoe]

*

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

My team sucks, and all I have to live my life for is weak trolling of forums of other NBA teams

[FromWayDowntown]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U

That video is ridiculous if you're trying to prove that Donaghy was affecting the score of that game.

I'll give you that the Manu foul is suspicious now, but it's not THAT unusual for the outside official to make that call, particularly where the offensive player complains the way Ginobili did at the end of that play. Also, Donaghy is the baseline official who refuses to make the call on Amare's drive at 2:50 of the 4th, but officials blow that call all the time too.

In the best case scenario for Suns whiners, that's two calls that might implicate Donaghy. The video should have ended there and saved me the next 4:10 of my life.

As for the rest:

1. Amare's 4th foul -- the offensive foul with Oberto flopping -- at 10:35 of the 4th (2:40 on the video) was called (clearly) by Eddie F. Rush. I'm not sure what that has to do with Donaghy.

2. The Duncan/Nash block-charge call at 6:15 of the 3rd quarter (about 3:15 or so in the video) is a call made by Greg Willard, not Tim Donaghy. The replay also shows that Nash is bailing out before contact, which makes the block call against him correct.

3. The call on Diaw at 6:46 of the 3rd quarter (about 3:55 on the video) is also made by Eddie F. Rush.

4. The offensive foul on Bowen at the 11:00 mark of the 3rd (about 4:25 on the video) is also made by Eddie F. Rush.

5. The technical foul on D'Antoni at 7:29 of the 4th (about 5:20 on the video) is called by Greg Willard. On the previous play, Nash thinks he got fouled; regardless of the merits of his complaint, the two officials on that side of the floor are Willard and Rush. On both the Nash play and the technical foul, Donaghy is across the floor and near midcourt.

6. The no-call at 6:09 of the 4th on Nash (about 6:11 on the video) is made by Eddie F. Rush.

If the point of the video is to complain that NBA officiating can be inconsistent, it does show that. If the point of the video is to suggest that Donaghy affected the outcome of that game by the fact that he officiated the game, it's a long way from doing that.

[picnroll]

The rigged game was game four where the bogus fouls on Duncan allowed the Suns a chance to get back in the game.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't think it was fixed for the spurs to win, but nobody really knows what the hell went on. Now they're saying they are expecting more arrests to be made and it might be a bigger deal than we first thought. Say whatever you want but something definately wasn't right about last years game 5 of the finals, when Wade shoved Dirk and Dirk was called for the foul and Wade won the game fromt he line. I have never seen any shit like that in all my years of watching sports.

[td4mvp3]

I don't think it was fixed for the spurs to win, but nobody really knows what the hell went on. Now they're saying they are expecting more arrests to be made and it might be a bigger deal than we first thought. Say whatever you want but something definately wasn't right about last years game 5 of the finals, when Wade shoved Dirk and Dirk was called for the foul and Wade won the game fromt he line. I have never seen any shit like that in all my years of watching sports.
i agree, if more refs get implicated, this becomes a much bigger deal. but as it stands, it's one guy and, in particular, one game between the suns and spurs. none of us are saying it's not a bad thing, but i am surprised anyone would say an entire series or playoffs is called into question based on what's been reported so far.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Say whatever you want but something definately wasn't right about last years game 5 of the finals, when Wade shoved Dirk and Dirk was called for the foul and Wade won the game fromt he line. I have never seen any shit like that in all my years of watching sports.


You must have missed the game earlier in the playoffs where Dirk ran over Duncan (after TD was set for a good 2 seconds) and they called it on Tim (and that was an end of game situation too).

[xmas1997]

On KENS TV Sports news they reported that not only was Donaghy cooperating with the Feds and implicating more Refs, but also players as well.
And ESPN said basically the same thing.

[CarefreeAZ]

You mean the one where he jumped on top of Finley's back as he was going for a layup or the one where he fouled Horry on a layup (where even the commentators said it was a silly foul).
It might help if you actually watch the games yourself.
Funny they don't mention Duncan's bogus fouls in the same game.

Wait, according to that bug-eyed expression on his face every time the whistle blows, I thought Duncan never committed a foul in his entire NBA career.

[FromWayDowntown]

You must have missed the game earlier in the playoffs where Dirk ran over Duncan (after TD was set for a good 2 seconds) and they called it on Tim (and that was an end of game situation too).

You mean the famous Dirk steps on Tim's foot and Tim is called for the block call?

I maintain my position that officials don't affect the outcomes of games because there are too many things that players can do to determine the outcome. But, if you want to get into odd calls, how about 2 calls in Game 4 of the Spurs/Mavs 2006 playoff series: (1) Bavetta's phantom technical on Finley in the 2nd quarter; and (2) Jim Clark's ruling against Duncan on a block/charge situation in the 4th quarter with the Spurs up by 5 -- Clark called the block claiming that Duncan's foot was in the circle, but replays showed that Duncan was both set and outside of the circle. Dirk makes 3 free throws, including a delay of game technical, and what could have been Spurs +5 and the ball became Spurs +2. The game was decided in overtime. Each of those calls was wrong, but the Spurs had plenty of opportunities to overcome the officiating; they simply failed.

[td4mvp21]

Wait, according to that bug-eyed expression on his face every time the whistle blows, I thought Duncan never committed a foul in his entire NBA career.

I don't know why other fans throw out TD's famous "I didn't do it" look as if it insults us. We don't give a fuck what his facial expressions are :lol.

[UV Ray]

On KENS TV Sports news they reported that not only was Donaghy cooperating with the Feds and implicating more Refs, but also players as well.
And ESPN said basically the same thing.

Tip of the iceberg. Serves Stern right for his moronic judgment.

[UV Ray]

For all you Stern lovers, he won't survive through the end of the year.

[td4mvp3]

maybe the spurs actually overcame this ref


Those studying Donaghy's games might have noticed some trends.

When the home team was favored by 0-4½ points, it went 5-12 in games officiated by Donaghy this season, according to Covers.com, a Web site that tracks referee trends. Home underdogs were 1-7 when the spread was 5-9.5 points.

Donaghy was part of a crew working the Heat-Knicks game in New York in February when the Knicks shot 39 free throws to the Heat's eight, technical fouls were called on Heat coach Pat Riley and assistant Ron Rothstein, and the Knicks won by six. New York was favored by 4½.

[UV Ray]

maybe the spurs actually overcame this ref
The self destruction of the NBA is at hand and all you concern yourself with is your lousy little Spurs?

[spurster]

This whole thing is disgusting. Game 3 is tainted, pure and simple. But NBA refs in general are disgusting. I can only hope that the NBA cleans it up.

[UV Ray]

This whole thing is disgusting. Game 3 is tainted, pure and simple. But NBA refs in general are disgusting. I can only hope that the NBA cleans it up.

A voice of reason.

[smrattler]

I don't think it was fixed for the spurs to win, but nobody really knows what the hell went on. Now they're saying they are expecting more arrests to be made and it might be a bigger deal than we first thought. Say whatever you want but something definately wasn't right about last years game 5 of the finals, when Wade shoved Dirk and Dirk was called for the foul and Wade won the game fromt he line. I have never seen any shit like that in all my years of watching sports.

How do you win money if you're a gambler? Bet small against the odds and win big. Bet the underdog. You don't pick a toss up series or game and bet the house with no odds. That's stupid. Spurs were favored by 4 and they cover. What was he betting????? How much do you have to bet to make anything?????

Tell me he ref'd the whole Mavs/Heat series and he's the one blowing whistles that don't make sense and sending Wade to the line, and I'm listening a little more. Tell me he ref'd the Warriors/Mavs series and called sorry calls that got the underdog the win, I'm listening.

But a team with our resume? Against a team that's never won jack shit? Who's the favorite? Us? By game 3, for sure. Them? No way, if anyone's the underdog, it was the Suns. And by game 3? With us already winning game one, going home... we had to be favorite's on anyone's books.

[leemajors]

UV Ray on all ignore?

[UV Ray]

How do you win money if you're a gambler? Bet small against the odds and win big. Bet the underdog. You don't pick a toss up series or game and bet the house with no odds. That's stupid. Spurs were favored by 4 and they cover. What was he betting????? How much do you have to bet to make anything?????

Tell me he ref'd the whole Mavs/Heat series and he's the one blowing whistles that don't make sense and sending Wade to the line, and I'm listening a little more. Tell me he ref'd the Warriors/Mavs series and called sorry calls that got the underdog the win, I'm listening.

But a team with our resume? Against a team that's never won jack shit? Who's the favorite? Us? By game 3, for sure. Them? No way, if anyone's the underdog, it was the Suns. And by game 3? With us already winning game one, going home... we had to be favorite's on anyone's books.


NBA IN A 'FIX'
FEDS PROBING REF IN MAFIA BET SCAM

By MURRAY WEISS
... Having a referee in their pockets provides a two-fold bonanza to game fixers.

Gamblers would be able to directly cash in by betting on games where they knew the point spread was compromised.

But having a ref in their pocket could prove even more lucrative to crooks in a bookmaking syndicate.

Bookmakers hope to encourage an equal amount of betting on each team and make their money on the "vigorish," which is typically 10 percent of a losing bet.

[mavs>spurs2]

UV Ray on all ignore?

yup

[UV Ray]

UV Ray on all ignore?

Yup

[jag]

i guess i wont be reading his post anytime soon...

[UV Ray]

i guess i wont be reading his post anytime soon...
Nope

[exstatic]

UV Ray on all ignore?

Yeah, AKA Kori's death sentence to assholes. The only bug is that you can see the poor bastards as "last responder" in a thread on the front page. Otherwise, no trace remains. Couldn't have happened to a bigger shit head. :lmao

[exstatic]

What? I can't hear you, Ray. Speak up!!!

:lol:rollin:lol:rollin
http://members.shaw.ca/tjmcq/matrixneo2.jpg

[UV Ray]

What? I can't hear you, Ray. Speak up!!!


Nice avatar joto boy!

[td4mvp3]

What? I can't hear you, Ray. Speak up!!!

:lol:rollin:lol:rollin
http://members.shaw.ca/tjmcq/matrixneo2.jpg
what happened to him? what did he do?

[exstatic]

what happened to him? what did he do?
You never find out the specifics, but to piss Kori off like that, it must have been bad. He was pretty much an asshole from day 1. She doesn't even do that to product spammers. I only know of two posters who've ever gotten this, although admittedly that is by personal visual evidence only...seeing them as last responder, and nothing is there when you open the thread.

[UV Ray]

You never find out the specifics, but to piss Kori off like that, it must have been bad.

In other words you're full of shit.

[timvp]

In other words you're full of shit.

Suns lost. Deal with it. :smokin

[xmas1997]

KSAT TV sports is now getting ready to talk about the NBA scandal expanding to more Refs and players.

[UV Ray]

Suns lost. Deal with it. :smokin
Who's talking about the Suns?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I have only one thing to say - wanna talk about atrocious officiating, watch the 4th Q of game 4 which led to the Horry-Nash incident and count the number of pitiful calls that go against the Spurs and lead to us losing the game.

It all evens out in the end.

[Obstructed_View]

Wake me when the league comes to take away the trophy and the banner...

[Gino20]

I find it so funny that Phoenix fans find an excuse to blame everyone but their team. Going back toward the end of game 3, Amare fumbled away a pass from Nash, someone left Finley wide open behind the arc, etc. It was mental mistakes that cost them the game combined by great play by the Spurs, not the refs. The refs can influence a game, but they cant win a game for another team. The refs cant score points for a team. Anyway, keep crying because it makes this championship run that much better. Now, let the drive for 5ive begin!!!

[UV Ray]

I find it so funny that Phoenix fans find an excuse to blame everyone but their team. Going back toward the end of game 3, Amare fumbled away a pass from Nash, someone left Finley wide open behind the arc, etc. It was mental mistakes that cost them the game combined by great play by the Spurs, not the refs. The refs can influence a game, but they cant win a game for another team. The refs cant score points for a team. Anyway, keep crying because it makes this championship run that much better. Now, let the drive for 5ive begin!!!

Spurs won. Deal with it.

[timvp]

Spurs won. Deal with it.

Exactly.

[spurspf]

I don't think it was fixed for the spurs to win, but nobody really knows what the hell went on. Now they're saying they are expecting more arrests to be made and it might be a bigger deal than we first thought. Say whatever you want but something definately wasn't right about last years game 5 of the finals, when Wade shoved Dirk and Dirk was called for the foul and Wade won the game fromt he line. I have never seen any shit like that in all my years of watching sports.


Sort of like when Irk stepped on Duncan and it was a Duncan foul?

[UV Ray]

Exactly.


As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer.

[J.T.]

Sort of like when Irk stepped on Duncan and it was a Duncan foul?

Or the Duncan outside restricted circle but called for charge anyway 5th foul in that game.

Or the Manu Ginobili swiping at the airspace directly above Jason Terry, yet curiously not touching Terry AT ALL and sent to the bench, fouled out.

NBA has the worst officials of any sport. They're probably better off training monkeys to call games. And they wouldn't have to pay the monkeys, so the NBA retains the same level of "competent" officiating and saves tons of cash. Win win situation.

[bobbyjoe]

That video is ridiculous if you're trying to prove that Donaghy was affecting the score of that game.

I'll give you that the Manu foul is suspicious now, but it's not THAT unusual for the outside official to make that call, particularly where the offensive player complains the way Ginobili did at the end of that play. Also, Donaghy is the baseline official who refuses to make the call on Amare's drive at 2:50 of the 4th, but officials blow that call all the time too.

In the best case scenario for Suns whiners, that's two calls that might implicate Donaghy. The video should have ended there and saved me the next 4:10 of my life.

As for the rest:

1. Amare's 4th foul -- the offensive foul with Oberto flopping -- at 10:35 of the 4th (2:40 on the video) was called (clearly) by Eddie F. Rush. I'm not sure what that has to do with Donaghy.

2. The Duncan/Nash block-charge call at 6:15 of the 3rd quarter (about 3:15 or so in the video) is a call made by Greg Willard, not Tim Donaghy. The replay also shows that Nash is bailing out before contact, which makes the block call against him correct.

3. The call on Diaw at 6:46 of the 3rd quarter (about 3:55 on the video) is also made by Eddie F. Rush.

4. The offensive foul on Bowen at the 11:00 mark of the 3rd (about 4:25 on the video) is also made by Eddie F. Rush.

5. The technical foul on D'Antoni at 7:29 of the 4th (about 5:20 on the video) is called by Greg Willard. On the previous play, Nash thinks he got fouled; regardless of the merits of his complaint, the two officials on that side of the floor are Willard and Rush. On both the Nash play and the technical foul, Donaghy is across the floor and near midcourt.

6. The no-call at 6:09 of the 4th on Nash (about 6:11 on the video) is made by Eddie F. Rush.

If the point of the video is to complain that NBA officiating can be inconsistent, it does show that. If the point of the video is to suggest that Donaghy affected the outcome of that game by the fact that he officiated the game, it's a long way from doing that.

How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.

Yet it did happen in Spurs Suns Game 3. If you want to influence the outcome of a game as a ref, the easiest way to do it is to get the other team's best player in foul trouble so he's relegated to the bench.

2 of the fouls on Stoudemire on that game were simply horrible. A clean block on Duncan called a foul, then a blatant flop by Oberto. The Horry foul on Stoudemire was iffy at best as well. Horry throws himself into Amare, purely to draw the foul. You don't see superstars getting the short end of calls with the likes of 3rd tier players like Oberto and Horry.

Watch that video and you can see 2 awful calls and 1 borderline one (one awful actually) involving Duncan that all go his way, what you'd expect for a superstar. The play when Nash slides under him to draw the charge is one that can go either way. It goes Duncan's way. The next play Duncan is setting a screen on Diaw. Duncan blatantly sticks his hip out (pretty dirty play actually) to initiate the contact with Diaw and then takes a dive. Foul called on Diaw. Horrible call. Probably the worst call in this video. A very clear offensive foul.

Next play Duncan clubs Stoudemire's arm. No foul called.

In Duncan's case, he gets every call in this video basically and we see Oberto's ridiculous flop on Amare.

I think it goes without say that as a ref if you are trying to manipulate a game, you can't do it as effectively on your own. The easiest way to do it is to setup a kickback with fellow refs doing the game (as ESPN is reporting, other refs have been reported to be involved as well). Why would the mob pay off one ref only when they know they are 3 refs total and paying off one ref doesn't insure you of much of advantage unless the other refs are in play as well? They are only buying a marginal advantage with one ref on the books.

BTW, that Donaghy call on Ginobili was not only the worst, but most bizarre of the playoffs. Not only is he at midcourt, but he calls it a solid 3-4 seconds after the play is occurred. If any call screams of foul play, that would be the one.

Acting like it's only Suns whiners who think there's some fire here is crazy. These guys at Fox Sports, Bill Simmons, etc aren't Suns fans. They just hate that a series was decided by factors other than on court play (dirty cheap shot by Horry, suspensions benefitting the perpetrating team, ref paid off by the mob, etc).

If something like what happened to the Suns happened to the Spurs, you wouldnt hear the end of it in SA for the next 50 yrs. They were completely raped by Stern, Stu Jackson, a cheapshot, and possibly now a conspiracy involving the mob. It's pretty unbelievable.

[J.T.]

If something like what happened to the Suns happened to the Spurs, you wouldnt hear the end of it in SA for the next 50 yrs. They were completely raped by Stern, Stu Jackson, a cheapshot, and possibly now a conspiracy involving the mob. It's pretty unbelievable.


The piss poor officiating is really what's to blame for everything in the Spurs-Suns series that went horribly wrong. The Suns were bailed out and won FT disparity on the road in what can arguably be called the swing game of that series. Horry was letting the free world know that something wasn't right via taking it out on Nash. I don't think he was counting on the Suns young star basically proving to the world that giving up college for the NBA is a mistake. Honestly I doubt Amare could file his own tax return after seeing that shit.

The only conspiracy here is that whottt very curiously said the Spurs would have a better shot against Phoenix if they could somehow bait Raja Bell into doing something stupid similar to his WWE foul on Kobe that got him suspended the previous season. Amare and Diaw getting suspended instead of Bell was a huge bonus. Now if only I wasn't too lazy to search for that post...

[exstatic]

How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.
You might have a case if this were somehow an aberration from the regular season. It wasn't. Amare is a clueless fucktard who has no idea how to play defense and NOT pick up fouls, as witnesses by the fact that he had the second highest amount of raw fouls (295) and second highest fouls per game (3.7) in the NBA last season.

[OsakaSpurs]

You could just see the smirk on Robert's face if asked if he wanted to play the Sun's again to prove it. You could feel Nash's headache coming back too.

Har har har!

[Armando]

It could have not have happen to a better commissioner! BTW I thought it was Violet Palmer when I first heard about the investigation.

[Armando]

I will still watch the NBA regardless.

[FromWayDowntown]

How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.

Just one? Okay -- here's one -- Game 3 of the 1999 Western Conference Finals. In that game, Tim Duncan (who was already the Spurs superstar) played 20 minutes at Portland in a game in which he ended up with 5 fouls.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/playoffs/western/news/1999/06/04/spurs_blazers_game3/

Don't tell me that Stoudemire now is a bigger star than Duncan was in 1999. Duncan was First Team All-NBA that season, First Team All-Defense, and 3rd in the MVP voting.

In any event, it's good to know that you're on record as supporting the star system and believing that officials should look the other way when superstars commit fouls.


Yet it did happen in Spurs Suns Game 3. If you want to influence the outcome of a game as a ref, the easiest way to do it is to get the other team's best player in foul trouble so he's relegated to the bench.

Unless, of course, you call two early fouls because said player actually commits two early fouls. Here's what I don't get about this whole argument -- the two calls that Donaghy put on Stoudemire early were both clearly fouls. There would have been screams of conspiracy had he chosen NOT to make those calls -- to say nothing of the fact that either of his comrades may have chosen to make those calls anyway. The calls that got Stoudemire in trouble in Game 3 weren't calls that were made by Donaghy.


I think it goes without say that as a ref if you are trying to manipulate a game, you can't do it as effectively on your own. The easiest way to do it is to setup a kickback with fellow refs doing the game (as ESPN is reporting, other refs have been reported to be involved as well). Why would the mob pay off one ref only when they know they are 3 refs total and paying off one ref doesn't insure you of much of advantage unless the other refs are in play as well? They are only buying a marginal advantage with one ref on the books.

In the first place, you have no evidence whatsoever that bad calls by Willard and Rush were anything other than incompetence. At this point, there's no proof that Donaghy or anyone else was giving money to any other officials. In fact, the evidence to this point makes it seem pretty evident that even Donaghy wasn't getting paid by the mob -- he was fixing games to protect himself and his family, but was making money only by placing bets on those games.


BTW, that Donaghy call on Ginobili was not only the worst, but most bizarre of the playoffs. Not only is he at midcourt, but he calls it a solid 3-4 seconds after the play is occurred. If any call screams of foul play, that would be the one.

I don't disagree with that.


Acting like it's only Suns whiners who think there's some fire here is crazy. These guys at Fox Sports, Bill Simmons, etc aren't Suns fans. They just hate that a series was decided by factors other than on court play (dirty cheap shot by Horry, suspensions benefitting the perpetrating team, ref paid off by the mob, etc).

If something like what happened to the Suns happened to the Spurs, you wouldnt hear the end of it in SA for the next 50 yrs. They were completely raped by Stern, Stu Jackson, a cheapshot, and possibly now a conspiracy involving the mob. It's pretty unbelievable.

This is still the argument I don't understand -- how exactly were the Suns raped by Stern and Stu Jackson when those guys did nothing other than apply a rule in precisely the same way that it's always been applied? There was an altercation. Two Suns players left the bench area -- clearly left the bench area. The rule provides that if players leave the bench area during an altercation, they must be (not can be, not possibly) suspended for at least one game starting with the next game that team plays. It's been noted here forever, but had Stern chosen not to suspend Stoudemire and Diaw, he would have been making a first-time exception. There was no justification for that exception (other than the sense of some fans that the interests of the game are better served by making such exceptions in that single circumstance), particularly because just the night before, a very similar play occurred in Oakland when Derek Fisher got decked by Baron Davis. Somehow the Jazz players managed to stay on their bench during that altercation. Giving Stoudemire and Diaw a free pass would have, in some ways, been punishing the Jazz for sitting around and doing nothing during their situation. Besides, all of the other Suns were able to maintain their poise and stay on the bench. I don't get wanting to bail out the two fools who couldn't do that. They broke the rule, a single consequence has always applied to just that sort of breach, and the league imposed that consequence. Where's the "rape" in that? Oh, yeah -- I forgot that entertainment is more important than consistent application of a hard-and-fast rule.

The Donaghy thing is something else entirely. It's intellectually dishonest to lump that together with the consequences arising from the foolishness of Stoudemire and Diaw and to draw some broader picture.

[Extra Stout]

On KENS TV Sports news they reported that not only was Donaghy cooperating with the Feds and implicating more Refs, but also players as well.
And ESPN said basically the same thing.
In all the arguing about Game 3, this point has been overlooked.

If this scandal involves a number of referees and also players, you can start making plans to shut down the NBA, because it is through.

[nkdlunch]

he probably did fix it. So what? even if we give back game 3 to Suns. Spurs still won the series because they were the better team

[Slinkyman]

How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.


WCF game 3, tim duncan only played 26 minutes against the jazz.

[UV Ray]

The only bug is that you can see the poor bastards as "last responder" in a thread on the front page. Otherwise, no trace remains. Couldn't have happened to a bigger shit head. :lmao

May your father acquire an STD from John Amaechi.

[da_suns_fan__]

I think this scandal proves the Suns were the best team.

[J.T.]

I think this scandal proves the Suns were the best team.

Because Tim Donaghy made Nash's nose bleed for 30 minutes, made Stoudemire leave the bench, and made the Suns get ass rammed in the clincher too?

[dbestpro]

Phx -Spurs
Game 1 Suns fouls 23 Spurs 27
Game 2 Suns fouls 14 Spurs 18
Game 3 Suns fouls 24 Spurs 22
Game 4 Suns fouls 16 Spurs 26
Game 5 Suns fouls 19 Spurs 23
Game 6 Suns fouls 22 Spurs 21
Total Fouls Suns 118 Spurs 141
Almost 20% more fouls were called on the Spurs than the Suns and the Suns are a jump shooting team. Yes, there probably was a fix, except the Suns where so incompetent they couldn't even win with the fix in their favor.

[da_suns_fan__]

Phoneix radio is playing the clip of the "late call".

Suns were up by nine (despite the two early fouls called on Stoudemire both called by Donaghey) and starting to blow the game open.....

You should hear the national announcers react to the call. They're in shock.

[cornbread]

I think this scandal proves the Suns were the best team.
:lmao And they'll finally prove it next season!

[Shred]

Because Tim Donaghy made Nash's nose bleed for 30 minutes, made Stoudemire leave the bench, and made the Suns get ass rammed in the clincher too?

Damn it, you're straying from the official party line--the suspensions had nothing to do with the Spurs' win, remember!!!

[da_suns_fan__]

Damn it, you're straying from the official party line--the suspensions had nothing to do with the Spurs' win, remember!!!



:lol

[AllSunsRWhiners]

:lol

Why don't you fuck buddies go get a room already? You've been circle jerking for the last couple of days anyway.

[spursfan09]

YOu know what? I will admit it. This scandals proves it. I've know this for a while but its so true now.

That Sun fans, coach and players are nothing but whiny up the ass little bitches.

The sun fans keep making videos of sun players having calls go against them. But a Spur fan can do the same thing with with our team and make it look like the game is being called in favor of the Suns. I can't believe that its been months and the Sun fans are still grasping for straws here.

[JPB]

Just one? Okay -- here's one -- Game 3 of the 1999 Western Conference Finals. In that game, Tim Duncan (who was already the Spurs superstar) played 20 minutes at Portland in a game in which he ended up with 5 fouls.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/playoffs/western/news/1999/06/04/spurs_blazers_game3/

Don't tell me that Stoudemire now is a bigger star than Duncan was in 1999. Duncan was First Team All-NBA that season, First Team All-Defense, and 3rd in the MVP voting.

In any event, it's good to know that you're on record as supporting the star system and believing that officials should look the other way when superstars commit fouls.



Unless, of course, you call two early fouls because said player actually commits two early fouls. Here's what I don't get about this whole argument -- the two calls that Donaghy put on Stoudemire early were both clearly fouls. There would have been screams of conspiracy had he chosen NOT to make those calls -- to say nothing of the fact that either of his comrades may have chosen to make those calls anyway. The calls that got Stoudemire in trouble in Game 3 weren't calls that were made by Donaghy.



In the first place, you have no evidence whatsoever that bad calls by Willard and Rush were anything other than incompetence. At this point, there's no proof that Donaghy or anyone else was giving money to any other officials. In fact, the evidence to this point makes it seem pretty evident that even Donaghy wasn't getting paid by the mob -- he was fixing games to protect himself and his family, but was making money only by placing bets on those games.



I don't disagree with that.



This is still the argument I don't understand -- how exactly were the Suns raped by Stern and Stu Jackson when those guys did nothing other than apply a rule in precisely the same way that it's always been applied? There was an altercation. Two Suns players left the bench area -- clearly left the bench area. The rule provides that if players leave the bench area during an altercation, they must be (not can be, not possibly) suspended for at least one game starting with the next game that team plays. It's been noted here forever, but had Stern chosen not to suspend Stoudemire and Diaw, he would have been making a first-time exception. There was no justification for that exception (other than the sense of some fans that the interests of the game are better served by making such exceptions in that single circumstance), particularly because just the night before, a very similar play occurred in Oakland when Derek Fisher got decked by Baron Davis. Somehow the Jazz players managed to stay on their bench during that altercation. Giving Stoudemire and Diaw a free pass would have, in some ways, been punishing the Jazz for sitting around and doing nothing during their situation. Besides, all of the other Suns were able to maintain their poise and stay on the bench. I don't get wanting to bail out the two fools who couldn't do that. They broke the rule, a single consequence has always applied to just that sort of breach, and the league imposed that consequence. Where's the "rape" in that? Oh, yeah -- I forgot that entertainment is more important than consistent application of a hard-and-fast rule.

The Donaghy thing is something else entirely. It's intellectually dishonest to lump that together with the consequences arising from the foolishness of Stoudemire and Diaw and to draw some broader picture.


Great post.

[LilMissSPURfect]

here i thought, with all the time passing....they'd get over it...seems suns fans think they woulda been crowned champs of the second round....and they would dismantle cleveland and utah as easily as we did....


stop the madness suns ans suns fans and come back next season with a new set of excuses....

[JPB]

Phx -Spurs
Game 1 Suns fouls 23 Spurs 27
Game 2 Suns fouls 14 Spurs 18
Game 3 Suns fouls 24 Spurs 22
Game 4 Suns fouls 16 Spurs 26
Game 5 Suns fouls 19 Spurs 23
Game 6 Suns fouls 22 Spurs 21
Total Fouls Suns 118 Spurs 141
Almost 20% more fouls were called on the Spurs than the Suns and the Suns are a jump shooting team. Yes, there probably was a fix, except the Suns where so incompetent they couldn't even win with the fix in their favor.

No response from suns fans ? How curious !

I can't believe some of them are summing up the series to one or two hypothetical bad calls on one game. It was only game 3.
Besides suns coaches and players admitted chemistry issues after the series.

[Mister Sinister]

^ Yeah, because Suns fans can't understand a foul discrepancy in their favor. It'd hurt their brains.

[Johnny RIngo]

Phx -Spurs
Game 1 Suns fouls 23 Spurs 27
Game 2 Suns fouls 14 Spurs 18
Game 3 Suns fouls 24 Spurs 22
Game 4 Suns fouls 16 Spurs 26
Game 5 Suns fouls 19 Spurs 23
Game 6 Suns fouls 22 Spurs 21
Total Fouls Suns 118 Spurs 141
Almost 20% more fouls were called on the Spurs than the Suns and the Suns are a jump shooting team. Yes, there probably was a fix, except the Suns where so incompetent they couldn't even win with the fix in their favor.

It's cause the S0ns don't play defense. Every team the Spurs played in the playoffs this year had better defense than the S0ns. Duncan even admitted the Nuggets were a much tougher team than Phoenix. If Ginobili hadn't played so bad in Games 2 and 4 it would have been an easy sweep or, at most, a five game series. The series wasn't even close to begin with...but then again how can you expect a close series when the Spurs have made a habit of beating the S0ns(15-6 against Nash and the S0ns over the past three years).

It's pretty embarrassing that the S0ns needed Donaghy's help to put away the Lakers this year...Though this comes as no surprise since the S0ns have never been a championship calibre team. They fall into the second tier of the Western Conference. They can beat one-man teams like the Lakers but seem to crumble when faced with superior opposition like the Spurs. Hell, even the Jazz would have put them away in 6 games(Jazz were 3-1 vs the S0ns this year).

The S0ns fans will continue to blame the refs and suspensions when the real problem lies in their gimmick offense, their lack of defense, and that joke of coach Mike D'Antoni.

[da_suns_fan__]

It's cause the S0ns don't play defense. Every team the Spurs played in the playoffs this year had better defense than the S0ns. Duncan even admitted the Nuggets were a much tougher team than Phoenix. If Ginobili hadn't played so bad in Games 2 and 4 it would have been an easy sweep or, at most, a five game series. The series wasn't even close to begin with...but then again how can you expect a close series when the Spurs have made a habit of beating the S0ns(15-6 against Nash and the S0ns over the past three years).

It's pretty embarrassing that the S0ns needed Donaghy's help to put away the Lakers this year...Though this comes as no surprise since the S0ns have never been a championship calibre team. They fall into the second tier of the Western Conference. They can beat one-man teams like the Lakers but seem to crumble when faced with superior opposition like the Spurs. Hell, even the Jazz would have put them away in 6 games(Jazz were 3-1 vs the S0ns this year).

The S0ns fans will continue to blame the refs and suspensions when the real problem lies in their gimmick offense, their lack of defense, and that joke of coach Mike D'Antoni.

I feel like I've seen this post before.

:lol

The truth is out Johnny Ringo. The Spurs have been exposed.

[Mister Sinister]

I feel like I've seen this post before.

:lol

The truth is out Johnny Ringo. The Spurs have been exposed.
http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/Fail_2.png

[Johnny RIngo]

I'm obsessed with Johnny Ringo. Every time he makes fun of my S0ns I feel all butt-hurt and frustrated. Maybe I'll go and make another topic about how much he makes me angry

[da_suns_fan__]

Johnny Johnny Johnny.

So how do you feel about the double asterisks on this series?

[Johnny RIngo]

I am S0ns fan. My team can't play defense so I'll blame every loss on the refs.

[td4mvp21]

So, 141 personal fouls on the Spurs, 118 on the Suns. No Suns fan has even touched that stat. I'd say the Spurs got the short end of the stick. Not to mention in Game 4, when the Suns shot way more free throws than the Spurs ON THE ROAD. So according to the Suns fans' logic, the Suns didn't deserve to win that game :rolleyes

[da_suns_fan__]

So, 141 personal fouls on the Spurs, 118 on the Suns. No Suns fan has even touched that stat. I'd say the Spurs got the short end of the stick. Not to mention in Game 4, when the Suns shot way more free throws than the Spurs ON THE ROAD. So according to the Suns fans' logic, the Suns didn't deserve to win that game :rolleyes

Why would we "touch" that stat? Did Donaghy ref all six games?

Then why would you want to look at data from any games he didn't referee to prove he didn't tilt game 3 in the Spurs favor?

Your a little short on logic.

[Reggie Miller]

I think this scandal proves that Amare Stoudemire is developmentally disabled.

Stoudemire is one of the dumbest players, if not the dumbest player, in the league. He commits offensive fouls on almost every FGA (lowering shoulder). He picks up stupid defensive fouls. He has been in the league for four years, and his skill set is exactly the same today as in 2003.

[yourcheatinheart]

Stoudemire is one of the dumbest players, if not the dumbest player, in the league. He commits offensive fouls on almost every FGA (lowering shoulder). He picks up stupid defensive fouls. He has been in the league for four years, and his skill set is exactly the same today as in 2003.

1st team all nba

[SAGambler]

Why would we "touch" that stat? Did Donaghy ref all six games?

Then why would you want to look at data from any games he didn't referee to prove he didn't tilt game 3 in the Spurs favor?

Your a little short on logic.

Because now there are murmurings about that more than one official and some players may also have been involved.

Fact is, Suns shot way more FTs in that series than they should have. Jump shooting teams like the Suns should not draw a lot of shooting fouls. Yet they drew way more than the Spurs.

So who is to say that one of the refs in that game wasn't involved in point shaving?

But no one is going to present the trophy to the Suns. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation. The fact remains that the Spurs own the Suns asses. Especially at playoff time.

[SAGambler]

1st team all nba

Still doesn't make him the brightest bulb in the package.

[slimjoe]

Does anyone know if Tim Donaghy officiated any of the Mavs Vs. Spurs games from last seasons playoffs?

[nkdlunch]

Does anyone know if Tim Donaghy officiated any of the Mavs Vs. Spurs games from last seasons playoffs?

he didn't but maybe some of his 'goodfellas' did. and I am not whining

[Johnny RIngo]

The Spurs should have been playing the Lakers in the Conference Semis this year. Donaghy fixed the S0ns-Lakers series in Phoenix's favor.

[UV Ray]

The Spurs should have been playing the Lakers in the Conference Semis this year. Donaghy fixed the S0ns-Lakers series in Phoenix's favor.

I sense that there was lot of pain in your childhood.

[da_suns_fan__]

The Spurs should have been playing the Lakers in the Conference Semis this year. Donaghy fixed the S0ns-Lakers series in Phoenix's favor.

Sorry Johnny. Its not going to work.

Nobody in their right mind (not even Laker fans) believed the Lakers were on the same level as the Suns when that series was over.

But most of the nation not only believed that the Suns were on the same level as the Spurs, but that they were truly BETTER than the Spurs.

This information just proves it!

You can still be a Spurs fan though. Its not their fault.

[BacktoBasics]

Sorry Johnny. Its not going to work.

Nobody in their right mind (not even Laker fans) believed the Lakers were on the same level as the Suns when that series was over.

But most of the nation not only believed that the Suns were on the same level as the Spurs, but that they were truly BETTER than the Spurs.

This information just proves it!

You can still be a Spurs fan though. Its not their fault.Your team had every opportunity to get back in the series with a full roster but couldn't.

When you die I'm sticking a Suns flag up your ass while I piss on your head.

[da_suns_fan__]

Your team had every opportunity to get back in the series with a full roster but couldn't.

When you die I'm sticking a Suns flag up your ass while I piss on your head.

Wheres the hate coming from? I didn't rig the series for the Spurs.

I didn't even report it.

Why are Spurs fans having so much trouble with the TRUTH??!!!!

[UV Ray]

Wheres the hate coming from? I didn't rig the series for the Spurs.

I didn't even report it.

Why are Spurs fans having so much trouble with the TRUTH??!!!!

You think its bad for you, try being invisible for awhile.

[FromWayDowntown]

Why are Spurs fans having so much trouble with the TRUTH??!!!!

Your speculation and hope is now the truth?

[hsxvvd]

Wow, Jack Magruder if the East Valley Tribune "Metro Pheonix's East Valley Region" think game 3 was fixed... Reliable source don't you think.

"And, oh yes, the Spurs were favored by four."

I'm sorry but would he have better to put his money on the Suns and get better value!

And, if the favorite win, don't the Mobsters have to pay out more to winners?

Maybe Ludden should take a look at game 4? After all he has no bias either...

[Obstructed_View]

Then why would you want to look at data from any games he didn't referee to prove he didn't tilt game 3 in the Spurs favor?
Maybe the same reason you point to calls that Donaghy didn't make to support your case that his corruption was the deciding factor in the series.

BTW, Manu was fouled twice on that layup attempt. Donaghy got it right. The only reason the whistle was late is because the other officials missed it at the time.

[Obstructed_View]

Why are Spurs fans having so much trouble with the TRUTH??!!!!
The truth is that the Spurs won the series. I have no trouble with that whatsoever. How about you?

[td4mvp21]

The truth is that the Spurs won the series. I have no trouble with that whatsoever. How about you?

[jmard5]

Sorry Johnny. Its not going to work.

But most of the nation not only believed that the Suns were on the same level as the Spurs, but that they were truly BETTER than the Spurs.



:lol If that will also help you sleep better at night and feel good about yourself, then by all means!

But don't mind us laughing, huh? :lol

[zrinkill]

I never thought any group of fans could beat out Mav fans as crybaby sore losers ...... but the Sun Fans have done it ....


I am loving every minute of their Misery ..... I hope this never stops. :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

Until it is known what interest Donaghy or his associates had in said game nothing is known. An over/under bet hardly damns the Spurs' series win. And, as pointed out above, the Suns enjoyed the benefit of the whistle the entire series.

[Cry Havoc]

Sorry Johnny. Its not going to work.

Nobody in their right mind (not even Laker fans) believed the Lakers were on the same level as the Suns when that series was over.

But most of the nation not only believed that the Suns were on the same level as the Spurs, but that they were truly BETTER than the Spurs.

This information just proves it!

You can still be a Spurs fan though. Its not their fault.

Keep telling yourself that the trophy-less, finals-less Suns team is anything less than a stepping stone for the truly elite.

It makes polishing our Finals trophy all the sweeter.

See you next season, when we kick your Kurt Thomas-less ass. Again. Only this time it probably won't go 6 games.

[td4mvp3]

Maybe the same reason you point to calls that Donaghy didn't make to support your case that his corruption was the deciding factor in the series.

BTW, Manu was fouled twice on that layup attempt. Donaghy got it right. The only reason the whistle was late is because the other officials missed it at the time.
amen. he got hit by barbosa, i believe, on the right arm and then marion, i think, got his leg/ankle. the touch was slight, but i remember mark jackson making a big deal during the cavs series of how any contact can affect a shot. on a different note, fort worth guy on the radio was saying that if 10 refs are found to be involved, they should shut down the league for a year.

[Shred]

Spurs fans have Suns on the brain....They redefine "inferiority complex."

[FromWayDowntown]

Spurs fans have Suns on the brain....They redefine "inferiority complex."

That's rich, since Spurs fans aren't the ones in here bitching two months later about a playoff series.

[zrinkill]

Spurs fans have Suns on the brain....They redefine "inferiority complex."

Yea we are all on a Suns forum ...... oh wait!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Spurs fans have Suns on the brain....They redefine "inferiority complex."

Yep, we have an inferiority complex. That's why we're posting here on Sunstalk.com.

Oh wait...

[zrinkill]

Shred lives and breathes the Spurs ...... and tries to say we are the ones obsessed .....I am loving his Misery most of all ..... and hope it never stops. :lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Shred lives and breathes the Spurs ...... and tries to say we are the ones obsessed .....I am loving his Misery most of all ..... and hope it never stops. :lol

Yeah, it's pretty comical hearing Suns trolls lecture Spurs fans about being obsessed when you can't open a thread on this board without one of them crying like a little bitch in it.

[Extra Stout]

I swear... Suns fans are the gift that keeps on giving.

[timvp]

I can't wait until it's exposed that the Suns trainer who tried to fix Nash's open wound with a bandaid in Game 1 was really a Spurs employee in disguise.

:hungry:

[1SUNSFAN]

I KNEW IT! Spurs are dirty and so are the refs that helped them... I think I remember you guys saying that nobody will be talking about this next year. But guess what??? They will talk about it EVERYTIME the Suns and Spurs meet for years to come. And the general concensus will be that the Suns should have/would have/could have won the series. Spurs fans have a bunch of dirty thugs... but go ahead and enjoy your tainted victory.

[justanotherspursfan]

I swear... Suns fans are the gift that keeps on giving.
What, like herpes?

[timvp]

They will talk about it EVERYTIME the Suns and Spurs meet for years to come. And the general concensus will be that the Suns should have/would have/could have won the series.What about 2003 and 2005? 2007 was just following the pattern.


go ahead and enjoy your tainted victory.We will.

[CarefreeAZ]

I find it so funny that Phoenix fans find an excuse to blame everyone but their team. Going back toward the end of game 3, Amare fumbled away a pass from Nash, someone left Finley wide open behind the arc, etc. It was mental mistakes that cost them the game combined by great play by the Spurs, not the refs. The refs can influence a game, but they cant win a game for another team. The refs cant score points for a team. Anyway, keep crying because it makes this championship run that much better. Now, let the drive for 5ive begin!!!

You are right about other factors toward the end of game that is probably the decider. However, Game 3 Amare only played a total of 15-18 minutes(comparaed with a normal 30-35) due to two phantom calls in the first quarter which put him on the bench for the second quarter and did not play much after that due to foul trouble. "The refs can influence a game" - your right about that.

[kartalkalkar]

their duty to sell more dont believe news. forza spurs

[Extra Stout]

What, like herpes?
I don't think a team and its fans ever have been owned like the Suns are by the Spurs. Two months later, and still all they can do is make woulda-shoulda-coulda excuses. They can't even look forward to next season because the team already salary-dumped the only guy who could guard Tim Duncan. 2007 was their chance and they blew it. Now Suns fans can only scurry around and puff up their chests to Spurs fans because they can't bear to deal with the fact that the door is already closed and they will never see the Suns win a championship in their lifetimes.

They try to take solace in knowing their team is popular because of its pace, but that doesn't really satisfy. They know their arena is devoid of banners.

So they come here and thrash about, and we pretend to have pity on them.

[exstatic]

They will talk about it EVERYTIME the Suns and Spurs meet for years to come. And the general concensus will be that the Suns should have/would have/could have won the series.
That is just the height of arrogance and excuse making. Hey bucko...we're 7-2 on your floor over the last 3 series. Look it up. Had there been a game 7, Amare would have committed a lot of fouls, D'Antoni would have cried, and the Spurs would have won. The problem is, your pussy team couldn't push the series that far.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't think a team and its fans ever have been owned like the Suns are by the Spurs. Two months later, and still all they can do is make woulda-shoulda-coulda excuses. They can't even look forward to next season because the team already salary-dumped the only guy who could guard Tim Duncan. 2007 was their chance and they blew it. Now Suns fans can only scurry around and puff up their chests to Spurs fans because they can't bear to deal with the fact that the door is already closed and they will never see the Suns win a championship in their lifetimes.

They try to take solace in knowing their team is popular because of its pace, but that doesn't really satisfy. They know their arena is devoid of banners.

So they come here and thrash about, and we pretend to have pity on them.

A bandwagon fan only gives a team so many chances. The Suns and Mavs are yesterday's news.

[Marcus Bryant]

I KNEW IT! Spurs are dirty and so are the refs that helped them... I think I remember you guys saying that nobody will be talking about this next year. But guess what??? They will talk about it EVERYTIME the Suns and Spurs meet for years to come. And the general concensus will be that the Suns should have/would have/could have won the series. Spurs fans have a bunch of dirty thugs... but go ahead and enjoy your tainted victory.

Nobody will give a shit 1 month from now.

Before I forget, enjoy your 41st season or whatever of non-victories.

-MB

[CarefreeAZ]

Nobody will give a shit 1 month from now.

Before I forget, enjoy your 41st season or whatever of non-victories.

-MB

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.

[timvp]

I was watching Suns vs. Blazers Game 4 of the 1992 playoffs the other day. It's amazing how the Suns are still the same team. In place of Nash leading the way, they had KJ. In place of an undersized Leandro Barbosa at shooting guard, they had Hornacek. In place of a defender who likes to shoot threes in Raja Bell, they had Majerle. In place of an undersized power forward who likes to score with a quick release around the basket in Marion, they had Ceballos. In place of an undersized power forward playing center in Amare Stoudemire, they had Tom Chambers.

Maybe one day the Suns will realize that formula doesn't work.

[td4mvp3]

You are right about other factors toward the end of game that is probably the decider. However, Game 3 Amare only played a total of 15-18 minutes(comparaed with a normal 30-35) due to two phantom calls in the first quarter which put him on the bench for the second quarter and did not play much after that due to foul trouble. "The refs can influence a game" - your right about that.
c'mon, ad naseum folks have pointed out that amare smashing his tush into finley's back was a foul, and he was sliding when horry went by him, thus a foul.

[justanotherspursfan]

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.
Wow. Congratulations, I guess. When's the parade?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.

Playstation doesn't count, rook.

[exstatic]

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.
:lmao B2B smack from a fan of the ringless wonders.

[Obstructed_View]

And the general concensus will be that the Suns should have/would have/could have won the series.
That's the three statistics the Suns consistenly lead the league in.

[justanotherspursfan]

:lmao B2B smack from a fan of the ringless wonders.
You'd think he'd at least get himself a Laker alternate account before throwing that around. Geez... don't people have standards anymore?

[Extra Stout]

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.
I guess when all you have is wishful thinking you might as well wish big.

[Playoffs>>Reg.Season]

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.

The only thing the Suns will ever achieve back-to-back is excuses as to why they didn't win a championship.

Oh, wait, it's already
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-
back-to-back-to-back-to-back, isn't it?

And you just got rid of the only guy who could sort of guard Duncan, not to mention two first round draft choices. The future will not be kind to the Suns.

Good times. I can't wait until we wipe the floor with your whining asses. The entire offseason of bulletin board material by your classless organization will translate to pain, great pain, for the Suns and their fans.

[Gino20]

You are right about other factors toward the end of game that is probably the decider. However, Game 3 Amare only played a total of 15-18 minutes(comparaed with a normal 30-35) due to two phantom calls in the first quarter which put him on the bench for the second quarter and did not play much after that due to foul trouble. "The refs can influence a game" - your right about that.

Umm...don't forget that Amare picked up the most fouls in the entire leage during this past season and is known for picking up silly fouls. If this were not the case, I would say you have a point. However, its not...sorry bud!
Drive for 5ive!!!

[td4mvp21]

I KNEW IT! Spurs are dirty and so are the refs that helped them... I think I remember you guys saying that nobody will be talking about this next year. But guess what??? They will talk about it EVERYTIME the Suns and Spurs meet for years to come. And the general concensus will be that the Suns should have/would have/could have won the series. Spurs fans have a bunch of dirty thugs... but go ahead and enjoy your tainted victory.

We will, along with our three others. Enjoy fucking nothing, since you have absolutely nothing :lol

[xmas1997]

Look, the Spurs-Suns series, games, whatever, are small potatos, when you consider that now fans of every team in the league are having these same type of debates about their own teams games and seasons!
This is much, much bigger than just the Spurs-Suns game 3 or series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if what I fear happens, and other Refs and players are also implicated, which IMHO will be the case here, then all hell is going to break loose!
And it may well stretch back many, many years, giving all NBA champions an *!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CarefreeAZ]

c'mon, ad naseum folks have pointed out that amare smashing his tush into finley's back was a foul, and he was sliding when horry went by him, thus a foul.

No, those sound like fouls, I was talking about early in the first few minutes of the game when he was rang up with two quick ones. One of the fouls he was not even close to the play. What you mentioned - definitely fouls.

Bruce bowen clipping Amare in the achilles tendon area when he was going up for a dunk - wait I know Bruce had a leg cramp and was just trying to work it out by fully extending it. Makes perfect sense.

[td4mvp21]

No, those sound like fouls, I was talking about early in the first few minutes of the game when he was rang up with two quick ones. One of the fouls he was not even close to the play. What you mentioned - definitely fouls.

Bruce bowen clipping Amare in the achilles tendon area when he was going up for a dunk - wait I know Bruce had a leg cramp and was just trying to work it out by fully extending it. Makes perfect sense.

I saw that play-you could barely even tell Bowen's ankle clipped Amare's. The only reason you dumbasses constantly bring it up is because Amare bitched about it after the Spurs won. No one would have even known had not Amare bitched about something that was barely even there in the first place.

[CarefreeAZ]

I guess when all you have is wishful thinking you might as well wish big.

You got that right. Just a little humor to see what kind of response I would get. Seriously all in good fun. I still think a suns/spurs series in 2008 makes for great basketball.

[Supreme_Being]

Yes. I would love to see the Spurs shutdown the Suns.

[703 Spurz]

I KNEW IT! Spurs are dirty and so are the refs that helped them... I think I remember you guys saying that nobody will be talking about this next year. But guess what??? They will talk about it EVERYTIME the Suns and Spurs meet for years to come. And the general concensus will be that the Suns should have/would have/could have won the series. Spurs fans have a bunch of dirty thugs... but go ahead and enjoy your tainted victory.

What makes you believe Phoenix should have won the series?
What makes you believe Phoenix would have won the series?
What makes you believe Phoenix could have won the series?

They've never done any of those things. Why do Suns fans seem to think they know for a fact that they were meant to win it all when they in fact did not?

[703 Spurz]

Wheres the hate coming from? I didn't rig the series for the Spurs.

I didn't even report it.

Why are Spurs fans having so much trouble with the TRUTH??!!!!

Where are the facts asswipe? Has anyone come out and specifically said a certain game was rigged?

:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

[Shred]

Why was Game 3 the last game Donaghy reffed?

[Marcus Bryant]

Why was Game 3 the last game Donaghy reffed?

Because Stern didn't need him any more?

[Johnny RIngo]

Sorry Johnny. Its not going to work.

Nobody in their right mind (not even Laker fans) believed the Lakers were on the same level as the Suns when that series was over.

But most of the nation not only believed that the Suns were on the same level as the Spurs, but that they were truly BETTER than the Spurs.

This information just proves it!

You can still be a Spurs fan though. Its not their fault.

Sounds like denial to me. Almost every Western Conference playoff team is better than the S0ns.

Spurs: 15-6 vs Steve Trash and the S0ns the past 3 years
Mavs: Too deep and actually know how to play defense
Jazz: They were 3-1 vs the S0ns this year. Probably would have eliminated Phoenix in 6.
Nuggets: Better frontcourt. Better backcourt. Better defense. Much tougher(Duncan said they were harder to beat than the S0ns)
Rockets: Defensive teams=S0ns kyrptonite
Warriors: Much more impressive run and gun team than the S0ns. At least they can beat the Mavs.

The S0ns needed 7 games to beat the Lakers last year and a crooked ref like Donaghy to beat 'em this year.

Like I said Sons are not a 1st tier playoff team. Because they can't play defense they'll never be a championship calibre team. 2nd tier teams like the S0ns end up being the whipping boy for the real contenders(3 years with the S0ns and Steve Trash still can't make the Finals)

[da_suns_fan__]

Sounds like denial to me. Almost every Western Conference playoff team is better than the S0ns.

Spurs: 15-6 vs Steve Trash and the S0ns the past 3 years
Mavs: Too deep and actually know how to play defense
Jazz: They were 3-1 vs the S0ns this year. Probably would have eliminated Phoenix in 6.
Nuggets: Better frontcourt. Better backcourt. Better defense. Much tougher(Duncan said they were harder to beat than the S0ns)
Rockets: Defensive teams=S0ns kyrptonite
Warriors: Much more impressive run and gun team than the S0ns. At least they can beat the Mavs.

The S0ns needed 7 games to beat the Lakers last year and a crooked ref like Donaghy to beat 'em this year.

Like I said Sons are not a 1st tier playoff team. Because they can't play defense they'll never be a championship calibre team. 2nd tier teams like the S0ns end up being the whipping boy for the real contenders(3 years with the S0ns and Steve Trash still can't make the Finals)


Yet the Suns get so much respect. Why is that?

Jealous Johnny?

[Mister Sinister]

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.
It's called winning a title. Ever heard of it?

[Trainwreck2100]

Yet the Suns get so much respect. Why is that?



Cause you run around score a bunch of points and don't play defense for shit.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yet the Suns get so much respect. Why is that?



It's not respect. People like a good trainwreck. There's not a better team in pro sports when it comes to that than Phoenix.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's our 40th JackAss and we will be winning it all next year and than the year after that. It's called back to back, something you might want to try and accomplish.

What's the over/under for Game 1 of the '08 Finals, Nostradamus?

[wizfan1234]

I'm a wizards fan (depressing I know), and I got to this thread from a google search. I've been reading, and most of it seems like typical home team forum stuff.

The issue seems to be mainly about game 3. As a third party, my opinion on the matter really isn't all that biased. I'm pretty much about the better team winning. I like both Nash and Duncan, and even though the Suns are more exciting to watch, I'd still rather see the better team win.

With that preface, I think that no one will know what would have happened if the game was officiated correctly. Speculating about what would happen is pure madness. The Spurs won, and that's that. HOWEVER, know that if the Spurs had lost in the same fashion as the Suns, that you guys would be bitching to no end. It's really sad to see you Spurs fans completely denying that anything happened.

Whether you believe it or not, the Suns played as well as the Spurs did in that series. The games were very even on average. Game 5 looked to be won by the Spurs because the Suns just ran out of gas, which was a product of not having enough regular players (speculation yeah, but pretty reasonable I think). The other games were pretty damn close. Did the Spurs play better than the Suns? I mean, I guess. There are just too many factors to look at: with the suspensions, the prospect that the games were tainted by officiating, and (oh yeah) THE ACTUAL PLAY ON THE COURT.

With all of the circumstances taken into account, the Spurs ended up on top. They won, and that is that. But don't act like they won because they were surely the better team. From this fans perspective, they seemed evenly matched. Just be thankful that you guys won and don't have to bitch about it for the rest of eternity.

[UV Ray]

...don't act like they won because they were surely the better team...
Spurs won and they were without a doubt, the better team. The Spurs were so much better than the Suns that the series was the least competitive and most boring of the entire playoffs. Deal with it.

[td4mvp3]

No, those sound like fouls, I was talking about early in the first few minutes of the game when he was rang up with two quick ones. One of the fouls he was not even close to the play. What you mentioned - definitely fouls.

Bruce bowen clipping Amare in the achilles tendon area when he was going up for a dunk - wait I know Bruce had a leg cramp and was just trying to work it out by fully extending it. Makes perfect sense.
those two fouls were his first two fouls, there was no others "early in the first few minutes" on amare. i can't recall his third, but his fourth was running into oberto away from the ball, which was a foul but could have been overlooked. his fifth was slapping duncan on a dunk attempt.

[jmard5]

With that preface, I think that no one will know what would have happened if the game was officiated correctly. Speculating about what would happen is pure madness. The Spurs won, and that's that. HOWEVER, know that if the Spurs had lost in the same fashion as the Suns, that you guys would be bitching to no end. It's really sad to see you Spurs fans completely denying that anything happened.

Whether you believe it or not, the Suns played as well as the Spurs did in that series. The games were very even on average.

Just be thankful that you guys won and don't have to bitch about it for the rest of eternity.

We won and we are very thankful for it. Haven't you noticed that it is the Suns fans in this forum that are sourgraping?

And no, Suns are not at par with the Spurs, not even close. The series not even at all. Hell, even the 6th man decided not to show at all. It was the Suns themselves that brought their downfall. Not the Spurs.

[ancestron]

Funny how when a Suns fan is proven wrong and they clearly have no rebuttal they go right to the "obsessed much?"

[sandman]

Yet the Suns get so much respect. Why is that?

Jealous Johnny?

Suns = Girls at Treasures

Great to look at and put on a great show, but at the end of the night she ain't gonna take you to the Promised Land...

[CarefreeAZ]

Sounds like denial to me. Almost every Western Conference playoff team is better than the S0ns.

Spurs: 15-6 vs Steve Trash and the S0ns the past 3 years
Mavs: Too deep and actually know how to play defense
Jazz: They were 3-1 vs the S0ns this year. Probably would have eliminated Phoenix in 6.
Nuggets: Better frontcourt. Better backcourt. Better defense. Much tougher(Duncan said they were harder to beat than the S0ns)
Rockets: Defensive teams=S0ns kyrptonite
Warriors: Much more impressive run and gun team than the S0ns. At least they can beat the Mavs.

The S0ns needed 7 games to beat the Lakers last year and a crooked ref like Donaghy to beat 'em this year.

Like I said Sons are not a 1st tier playoff team. Because they can't play defense they'll never be a championship calibre team. 2nd tier teams like the S0ns end up being the whipping boy for the real contenders(3 years with the S0ns and Steve Trash still can't make the Finals)

Hey Johnny Dingo!

Suns have owned the nuggets, rockets and warriors - check the numbers over the past few years.

Yes it took 7 games to beat the Lakers without our so called center (Amare). It's like not having Duncan and I am sure the Lakers would have pushed your team to seven. Actually if you have Oberto fill in the spot they probably would have beat you.

And finally - We beat the Mavs in the season series this year. They got by us in 2006 and we eliminated them in 2005. So yes, they do not scare us.

Advice for you - think before you type

[sandman]

Hey Johnny Dingo!

Suns have owned the nuggets, rockets and warriors - check the numbers over the past few years.

Yes it took 7 games to beat the Lakers without our so called center (Amare). It's like not having Duncan and I am sure the Lakers would have pushed your team to seven. Actually if you have Oberto fill in the spot they probably would have beat you.

And finally - We beat the Mavs in the season series this year. They got by us in 2006 and we eliminated them in 2005. So yes, they do not scare us.

Advice for you - think before you type

The only hope for Sun Fan is that his team is following the model of the Indianapolis Colts (potent offense and lots of gaudy stats), and Peyton finally got over after 8 years...

after Dungy got the defense to play decently. D'Antoni may have missed that chapter in the book.

[Trainwreck2100]

The only hope for Sun Fan is that his team is following the model of the Indianapolis Colts (potent offense and lots of gaudy stats), and Peyton finally got over after 8 years...

after Dungy got the defense to play decently. D'Antoni may have missed that chapter in the book.


The Colts stopped bitching about the mean ol' Pats as well.

[spurster]

I'm a wizards fan (depressing I know), and I got to this thread from a google search. I've been reading, and most of it seems like typical home team forum stuff.

The issue seems to be mainly about game 3. As a third party, my opinion on the matter really isn't all that biased. I'm pretty much about the better team winning. I like both Nash and Duncan, and even though the Suns are more exciting to watch, I'd still rather see the better team win.

With that preface, I think that no one will know what would have happened if the game was officiated correctly. Speculating about what would happen is pure madness. The Spurs won, and that's that. HOWEVER, know that if the Spurs had lost in the same fashion as the Suns, that you guys would be bitching to no end. It's really sad to see you Spurs fans completely denying that anything happened.

Whether you believe it or not, the Suns played as well as the Spurs did in that series. The games were very even on average. Game 5 looked to be won by the Spurs because the Suns just ran out of gas, which was a product of not having enough regular players (speculation yeah, but pretty reasonable I think). The other games were pretty damn close. Did the Spurs play better than the Suns? I mean, I guess. There are just too many factors to look at: with the suspensions, the prospect that the games were tainted by officiating, and (oh yeah) THE ACTUAL PLAY ON THE COURT.

With all of the circumstances taken into account, the Spurs ended up on top. They won, and that is that. But don't act like they won because they were surely the better team. From this fans perspective, they seemed evenly matched. Just be thankful that you guys won and don't have to bitch about it for the rest of eternity.
That's a great take! Many posters here are simply trash-talking, but they should remember that little things under control by the refs can have a big effect: the .4 shot by Fisher, Manu's foul on Dirk in Game 7 (that was a foul, but could have been overlooked), the Mavs had the Heat on the ropes until Wade got a lot of foul calls. Horry's body check on Nash was part in frustration at the refs.

With NBA refs, we have to live with the good with the bad and a lot of iffy calls. Now that one was crooked and reffed a critical game, the trash talking is childish, and a little humility would be nice.

[Obstructed_View]

the .4 shot by Fisher, Manu's foul on Dirk in Game 7 (that was a foul...
So you are citing two good calls? I can't wait to hear what you think your point is...

[LakerLanny]

All NBA games are tainted from the last 20 years just as all baseball games are tainted in the steroid era.

You can whine about it all you want, but clearly the NBA isn't taking it very seriously if they are actually brining back a corrupt official like Joey Crawford, he is ten times worse than Donaghy as far as manipulating games.

I would not be surprised if over half the officials in the league are on the take. It is simply impossible to be as consistently incompetent as many of them are without some ulterior motive (money) in the picture.

[Obstructed_View]

Yet they are still better than NFL, NCAA, NHL, MLB, and FIBA officials. I'll take them any day of the week.

[LakerLanny]

Yet they are still better than NFL, NCAA, NHL, MLB, and FIBA officials. I'll take them any day of the week.

As a San Antonio fan, I bet you would.

As a sports fan though, any of the other organizations you mentioned have better officials/umpires/refs than the NBA. It isn't even close.

The NBA is about the same level as Roller Derby, Wrestling or Boxing. It is rigged.

[Reggie Miller]

Dear Suns Fans:

This talk of "phantom calls" on Stoudemire is some of the most self-serving, delusional bullshit I have ever encountered, period.

You do understand that Stoudemire may be the most overrated player in the game, right? You do understand that he has no basketball I.Q., right? You do understand that he commits an offensive foul (lowering shoulder) on nearly every FGA, right?

By definition, there cannot be a "phantom call" on Stoudemire. He commits so many uncalled offensive fouls that any so-called "phantom call" is really a "make-up call." If the NBA officiated by the letter of the rule book, Stoudemire would foul out of every game. His basketball skill set is little better than an affinity for bowling people over and dunking. Clearly, this will "save" the NBA.

Suns' fans need a support group. Perhaps Cubs' fans will adopt one each. You see, Cubs' fans finally figured it out. When your team sucks or chokes year after year, that's not a coincidence, bad luck, or officiating. It's called delusions of adequacy. As in, "This team is not anywhere near as good as some of its more ignorant fans seem to believe that it is. This team cannot compete with the elite teams."

Wake up and smell reality. Your team isn't really that good.

[Trainwreck2100]

Yet they are still better than NFL, NCAA, NHL, MLB, and FIBA officials. I'll take them any day of the week.


FIBA officials suck ass.

[sandman]

As a San Antonio fan, I bet you would.

As a sports fan though, any of the other organizations you mentioned have better officials/umpires/refs than the NBA. It isn't even close.

The NBA is about the same level as Roller Derby, Wrestling or Boxing. It is rigged.

Wow, like I didn't expect Laker Fan to have a "rigged" take. :rolleyes

[IceColdBrewski]

Wow, like I didn't expect Laker Fan to have a "rigged" take. :rolleyes

The funniest part is that Lakers fans used to endlessly rag on Kings fans about their conspiracy theories early in the decade when the Lakers were beating them. Now it's Lakers fans who're always crying like babies.

[Reggie Miller]

Yet they are still better than NFL, NCAA, NHL, MLB, and FIBA officials. I'll take them any day of the week.


NFL = Instant replay gives you some lattitude with crappy officiating. Many bad calls have no effect on the outcome, due to challenges. Still, some bad or questionable calls do effect outcomes. I'd say officiating in the NFL is comparable to the NBA.

NCAA = Depends on the conference. IMHO, Big Ten and SEC officials are pretty good, but then again, that is the "standard" to which I am accustomed. MVC officials are pretty awful; they call too many fouls, allow the home crowds dictate to them, and do not let the games flow. Overall, officiating is better in the NBA (especially from a consistency standpoint) if you look at all of Div 1 basketball. I suspect a few conferences do a better job than the NBA, however.

NHL = I have never really heard of hockey fans complaining. As far as I know, there are no "historically bad" calls that have decided championships, as in some other sports. I don't follow the NHL enough to be qualified to say.

MLB = There are a few umpires in MLB, such as Froemming, who are basically perfect. I have never known Foremming to make a bad call or eject someone who didn't deserve it. (Traditionally, you really had to try pretty hard to get tossed from a baseball game.) Some of the younger umpires seem to lack the maturity and gravitas that the position requires, and they are too quick to toss players for arguing balls and strikes. (The rule is automatic ejection. Custom dictates that you can complain to the ump, so long as you don't turn around or otherwise show them up.) Overall, I would say that MLB has the best overall officiating. Strike zones are not identical from ump to ump, but they are usually consistent to themselves. To be brutally frank, a 162 game schedule allows for a lot of mistakes, anyway.

FIBA = FIBA officials are sort of like East German figure skating judges. Or is it more like Italian parliamentary cabinets? At any rate, it seems like the FIBA officials see international competition as some sort of demented World's Fair, in which each official's role is to highlight his nation's bizzare or idiosyncratic rules emphases. FIBA has actually gotten better, but it has nowhere to go but up.

[41times]

As a Mavs fan i feel somewhat vindicated. We have known for some time that the games were fixed and some of the officials had agenda's. Now proof is coming out. Don't be surprised if it is more than just this 1 guy. Where there is smoke there is fire and where there is fire,it spreads.

You can hate Mark Cuban all you want but bottom line he has been right more times than not about the officiating and he is one of the few who had enough guts to speak out about it to David Sperm. And speaking of Sperm this might be the end of him too if this gets too bad. If he knew anything about this guys gambling problem prior to now and let him continue to officiate then Sperm is toast!

"It looked like those games were rigged man." -- Tracy McGrady on the 2006 NBA Finals

[sandman]

The funniest part is that Lakers fans used to endlessly rag on Kings fans about their conspiracy theories early in the decade when the Lakers were beating them. Now it's Lakers fans who're always crying like babies.

Call bullshit on me if needed, but I just don't remember Spur Fan saying that we should have rightfully been Champs during the laker three-peat and/or the odd years. Not that we didn't play the "if" game with certain plays/games/series, but I simply do not recall having the attitude that whomever won that particular year had a "tainted" championship because we had gotten screwed in some way, shape or form. That we had the better team and through some conspiracy with Lucifer were denied what was rightfully ours.

I think the closest that it came was the Dallas series when every Mav Fan and Spur Fan was bitching about the officiating.

[RonMexico]

I used to say the Suns got screwed... now, they just got Donaghy'd

[sandman]

As a Mavs fan i feel somewhat vindicated. We have known for some time that the games were fixed and some of the officials had agenda's. Now proof is coming out. Don't be surprised if it is more than just this 1 guy. Where there is smoke there is fire and where there is fire,it spreads.

You can hate Mark Cuban all you want but bottom line he has been right more times than not about the officiating and he is one of the few who had enough guts to speak out about it to David Sperm. And speaking of Sperm this might be the end of him too if this gets too bad. If he knew anything about this guys gambling problem prior to now and let him continue to officiate then Sperm is toast!

"It looked like those games were rigged man." -- Tracy McGrady on the 2006 NBA Finals

So how many titles do you feel that your team is entitled to based on this situation? Remember, the man has been officiating in the NBA for 12 years, and you clearly stated that fixing and agendas is bigger than this one ref. So how many titles should the NBA retroactively award your team?

[Findog]

So how many titles do you feel that your team is entitled to based on this situation? Remember, the man has been officiating in the NBA for 12 years, and you clearly stated that fixing and agendas is bigger than this one ref. So how many titles should the NBA retroactively award your team?

The answer should be 0. Wade got too many FTAs, but the Mavericks still had an excellent chance to pull those games out. Until it emerges that Tony Soprano had a lot of money riding on Miami, nothing has changed.

[sandman]

I used to say the Suns got screwed... now, they just got Donaghy'd

Amazing how the most popular team in the league with a two-time MVP kept getting screwed over... er, Donaghy'd in the last three years.

btw, based on resident gambling expert Shoog, if you bet on the Suns in the 6 games that Donaghy officated this year, you would have only lost once.

That is one conspiracy theory that cannot come to a logical conclusion.

[tlongII]

San Antonio Spurs **

[sandman]

The answer should be 0. Wade got too many FTAs, but the Mavericks still had an excellent chance to pull those games out. Until it emerges that Tony Soprano had a lot of money riding on Miami, nothing has changed.

Funny thing is that Miami was 1-6 this last year in games that Donaghy officiated. The Mob must not be Heat fans...