Bill Simmons Finally Weighs In

[monosylab1k]

no spurs ball-licking here, so i'm sure Spur Fan will hate this :rolleyes

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070722&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

One man out, one league in trouble
By Bill Simmons


On Friday afternoon in southern California, you could hear the cacophony of frustrated screenwriters pounding their desks in disgust. The Tim Donaghy scandal doubled as the easiest movie pitch ever.

Imagine how simple it would have been to sell that script. A white NBA referee with a gambling problem (Matt Damon) loses too much money to a bookie (Timothy Olyphant) who's connected with a dangerous family of mobsters (led by head boss Alec Baldwin). One of their muscle guys (Turtle from "Entourage") threatens to beat up the ref unless he gives them inside information. Which he does. Now they have him. They tell him to start throwing a couple of games or they'll go after his wife (Evangeline Lilly) and daughter (the little girl from "Little Miss Sunshine"). He agrees to affect the over/under of games by whistling more fouls than usual, which should drive the scores above the over/under because everyone will be shooting more free throws. For a couple of games, it works. Eventually, they want more. Fearing for his life, he crosses the line and helps fix a few outcomes without realizing the mobsters will never say, "All right, we're good, nice working with you."

Meanwhile, a renegade FBI agent (Ryan Gosling) overhears the ref discussing one of the games on a tapped phone line, then gets tipped off by a mob informant (Joe Pantoliano) that they turned an NBA referee. They track the weasel for a solid year, gather all the evidence they need, then break the news to the NBA commissioner (Ron Silver) and his staff that their league has been compromised. It's too late. Too much damage has been done. The referee resigns, the feds swoop in and that's that. The movie ends with a sobbing Damon going to jail, Gosling getting promoted and Silver glumly watching the tape of a pivotal playoff game from the previous spring, a horribly officiated game that could have potentially affected the championship ... and the sight of that same compromised referee jogging down the court, ready to blow the whistle at a key moment.

The end.

That should have been a movie. Now, it allegedly looks to have happened in real life. If true, it's the rarest of sports scandals, a shocker that shocked absolutely nobody but might end up becoming more significant than anyone imagines. After the most damaging NBA season in three decades, after a series of deep-rooted problems -- almost entirely self-inflicted -- that already had everyone concerned about the league's immediate future, we reached the tipping point with Tim Donaghy.

Guilty or innocent, we will never watch an NBA game the same way. He's going to hang over everything -- every referee, every shaky outcome, every bad call -- in ways the average fan doesn't fully realize yet. Maybe they'll throw Donaghy in jail, maybe they won't, but he'll linger over every court like a black cloud. You'll hear his name more than you think. You and your buddies will make "that guy looks like he's pulling a Donaghy!" jokes every time a referee is making calls against your favorite team. Hecklers will gleefully play the Donaghy card after every bad call against the home team. For honest referees still working games, it doesn't matter what happens from this point on -- their collective integrity will always be questioned, their collective track record won't matter, and that will be that.

So that's one problem. The second problem is more complex. When news of the scandal broke on Friday, as J.A. Adande pointed out in his column that day, every diehard NBA fan had the same reaction. They weren't thinking, "I can't believe it!" or "Oh my God, how could this happen?" They were thinking, "Which one was it?" This was like finding out that your grandfather who smoked three packs a day for 50 years just came down with lung cancer. It was sad but inevitable. It was only a matter of time. These guys never made enough money (as we learned from the airplane ticket scandal) and struggled at their jobs consistently enough that there was no way to tell the difference between blowing a call and intentionally blowing a call.

More than any other professional league, an NBA referee can directly affect the outcome of every game. We've seen it happen time and time again, only we always assumed that the refs in question were working for the best interests of the league, that they were following orders like Luca Brasi (even if there was no definitive proof) -- like the guys who worked Game 6 of the Kings-Lakers series in 2002, or Game 7 of the Suns-Sonics series in 1993, or the infamous Hubert Davis Game in 1994. After Dwyane Wade and Miami received some Vince McMahon-level assistance in Games 3 and 4 of the 2006 Finals, I wrote an angry column about the "officiating crisis" (my words) that prompted Mavs owner Mark Cuban (tired of being fined) to post the link on his blog along with the sentence, "I never have to say a word again." After Dallas squandered that series, Cuban was so traumatized by the officiating that he nearly sold the Mavericks before family and friends talked him out of it.

For anyone who loves the NBA, the officiating has always been the proverbial "elephant in the room." No league has endured more jokes along the lines of "I'm not sure where the NBA ends and the WWE begins." Whether it's because of bad luck, poor training, measly pay or the thanklessness of the profession itself -- maybe it's all of those things -- the NBA employs a handful of good referees and an astonishing number of bad ones. In the playoffs, there never seems to be enough quality officials to go around. If that wasn't bad enough, the league displayed a nasty "habit" (note: I'm using quotation marks because you could never prove anything more than a series of coincidences) of assigning better referees if they needed road teams to prevail (like a marquee team trailing 2-1 and playing Game 4 on the road) and weaker referees if they needed home teams to prevail (because weak referees are more likely to have their calls prejudiced by a raucous home crowd). This "habit" was miraculously cured this past spring, one year after the fallout of the 2006 Finals, when the officiating assignments became noticeably more haphazard and we ended up with just one Game 7 in four rounds. Maybe it was a coincidence, maybe not.

And that's before factoring in the public's perception (well-earned, by the way) that superstars receive more favorable calls than non-superstars. It's like Chris Rock's bit about dad getting the biggest chicken leg at the dinner table -- once you reach a certain level in the NBA, the whistles will come. This perpetual leeway allows gifted athletes like Wade, Gilbert Arenas and LeBron James to drive recklessly into traffic in crunch time, knowing they can either score or draw a foul. (Even when Michael Jordan won the '98 Finals on what everyone believed was his final shot ever, he famously shoved Utah's Bryon Russell to the ground before launching that jumper. No whistle.) If anything, LeBron's pre-2007 game depended on this leeway so much that he was completely ineffective in the 2006 World Championships; he kept bowling his way into the paint and waiting for calls that never came. The international refs almost seemed amused by him. The NBA refs would have been bailing him out.

So when news of the Donaghy scandal broke, everyone's reaction was the same: "Which one?"

That's why I had one group of friends frantically organizing a "Who was the crooked ref?" office pool on Friday morning instead of wondering, "How could this happen?" That's why Stern ignored the FBI's advice and used such harsh language in his official statement on Friday; nobody understands the gravity of this crisis more than someone who grew up in New York in the '50s during CCNY's famous point-shaving scandal. This was his worst nightmare, worse than a repeat of the Artest Melee, worse than a repeat of Kermit Washington's punch, worse than anything except a terrorist act during an NBA game. Over everything else, David Stern always wanted his fans to feel completely safe when they're attending games, and he always wanted them to believe that the integrity of the game was intact. Now, they don't feel that way. At all.

So that's two significant problems. Problem No. 1 will fade away over time, although it will never completely disappear. Problem No. 2 can be fixed, although it will take some major work. But Problem No. 3 can't be fixed. If the allegations are true, Tim Donaghy didn't just violate the integrity of the league and rig some games. There's a good chance he altered the course of the 2007 championship. Only three teams had a chance last year: Dallas, Phoenix and San Antonio. When Dallas choked against Golden State in the opening round, the NBA's refusal to fix a broken playoff system came back to haunt it in Round 2, thanks to a Spurs-Suns matchup that suddenly doubled as the NBA Finals. In Game 1, San Antonio stole home-court advantage with a convincing win that everyone remembers because Steve Nash busted his nose open. The Suns rallied back with a blowout win in Game 2. Here's what I wrote after the third game -- the Spurs were favored by four, with an over/under of 200.5 -- after San Antonio prevailed, 108-101, thanks to Amare Stoudemire playing just 21 minutes because of foul trouble:


Congratulations to Greg Willard, Tim Donaghy and Eddie F. Rush for giving us the most atrociously officiated game of the playoffs so far: Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series. Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington and Violet Palmer must have been outraged that they weren't involved in this mess. Good golly. Most of the calls favored the Spurs, but I don't even think the refs were biased -- they were so incompetent that there was no rhyme or reason to anything that was happening. Other than the latest call in NBA history (a shooting foul for Manu Ginobili whistled three seconds after the play, when everyone was already running in the other direction), my favorite moment happened near the end, when the game was already over and they called a cheap bump on Bruce Bowen against Nash, so the cameras caught Mike D'Antoni (the most entertaining coach in the league if he's not getting calls) screaming sarcastically, "Why start now? Why bother?" What a travesty. Not since the cocaine era from 1978-1986 has the league faced a bigger ongoing issue than crappy officiating.

Now ...

Before the Donaghy scandal broke, if you told me there was a compromised official working a 2007 playoff game and made me guess the game, I would have selected Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns series. There were some jaw-dropping calls throughout, specifically, the aforementioned Ginobili call and Bowen hacking Nash on a no-call drive that ABC replayed from its basket camera (leading to a technical from D'Antoni). Both times, Mike Breen felt obligated to break the unwritten code that play-by-play announcers -- don't challenge calls and openly questioned what had happened. The whole game was strange. Something seemed off about it.

At the time, I assumed the league had given us another "coincidence" where three subpar refs (and calling that crew "subpar" is being kind) were assigned to a Game 3 in which, for the interest of a long series, everyone was better off having the home team prevail ... just like I anticipated another "coincidence" in which one of the best referees would work Game 4 to give Phoenix a fair shake in a game that, statistically, they were more likely to win. After all, it's easier to win Game 4 on the road than Game 3, when the fans are pumped up and the home team is happy to be home.(Which is exactly how it played out. Steve Javie worked Game 4, a guy who Jeff Van Gundy deemed "the best ref in the league" during the Finals. Hmmmm.) Look, this could have been an elaborate series of connected flukes. I'm just telling you that none of it surprised me. Which is part of the problem.

But here's what I didn't expect: That a potentially crooked ref was working that game.

Imagine being a Suns fan right now. You just spent the past two months believing that your team got screwed by the Stoudemire/Diaw suspensions, that you would have won Game 1 if Nash didn't get hurt, that you would have taken Game 3 if you hadn't been screwed by the officials, that you would have cruised in Game 5 if two of your best guys weren't suspended for running towards their best player as he lay in a crumpled heap. Now it looks like an allegedly compromised referee worked Game 3.

Well, how much did Donaghy affect the game? How many calls did he whistle on Stoudemire? How many of Bowen's potential fouls did he not call? Was he the seemingly incompetent schmuck who made that three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili? Did Tim Donaghy cost you that game?

If David Stern wants to do right by the fans, then he should order NBA TV to rerun the tape of Game 3. We need answers. We need to know for sure. Hell, they can start a series called "NBA Hardwood Classics: The Tim Donaghy Collection" and we'll spend the rest of the summer combing through games and figuring out how many Donaghy could have fixed. Like Game 6 of the Raptors-Nets series, which New Jersey won by a point in the final seconds. Did he swing that one? What about Game 2 of the Orlando-Detroit series, when the Magic rallied for a late cover in the final seconds with Donaghy jogging around? What about the Heat-Knicks game from last February in which the Knicks were given a 39-8 free-throw advantage and covered a 4.5-point spread by 1.5 points? Did Donaghy call those two technical fouls on the Miami coaches? Is there footage of Pat Riley screaming at him?

Stern promised us that "we would like to assure our fans that no amount of effort, time or personnel is being spared to assist in this investigation." And really, that's great. Thank you. But I'd rather see tapes of those games. I want to see all five playoff games that Donaghy worked last spring, as well as that Heat-Knicks game and any other contest that's relevant. Before we worry about justice, let's get some answers. Especially for Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns series. I left that series believing that the Spurs were better, that their offensive execution was unparalleled, that Tim Duncan was the best player on the court, that they would have figured out a way to win that series whether the suspensions happened or not. Now? I'm not so sure. What if an allegedly crooked referee hadn't been working Game 3? What if the Suns won that game? What then?

If you're a diehard Suns fan, this now becomes the toughest playoff loss in NBA history. You have a legitimate case that you were screwed.

If you're a diehard NBA fan, you're horrified but strangely hopeful, because we needed a tipping point to change a stagnant league that was headed in the wrong direction ... and maybe this was it.

Look, we already knew the officiating needed to be improved. We knew the NBA needed to solve the problem of non-playoff teams tanking down the stretch and shelving stars who could have played (and yet continuing to charge fans full price for these games). We knew the NBA needed to solve a lottery system that hasn't quite worked for 20 years. We knew the NBA needed to solve a screwed-up playoff system that only works when the conferences are perfectly balanced, and more importantly, we knew the league needed to start taking some chances. This is a league that hasn't swung for the fences with a major change since 1979, when it brought in the 3-point line from the old ABA. For nearly three decades, it has been making minor cosmetic changes here and there -- the draft lottery, zone defenses, hand-checks, the charging semicircle, improved rating systems for officials, flagrant fouls, the leaving-the-bench rule, the dress code -- while continually ignoring the bigger picture.

What's the big picture? Well, the regular season is effectively meaningless. Contenders can only improve to a point because of the luxury tax, so everyone searches for that same half-assed "we want to contend for a title, but we don't want to lose $20 million this season" competitive zone that leads to deals like Kurt Thomas and two first-round picks for a second-round pick and a 2006 trade deadline in which the biggest move involved Anthony Johnson. Fan interest peaks at three points -- at the start of the season, at the start of the first round of the playoffs, and right before the draft -- and dips at every other point. For seven of the past 10 seasons, the best two teams in the league played before the Finals -- which seems so incredibly shortsighted, I can't even begin to fathom how it's allowed to continue. And worst of all, when an NBA official was accused of fixing games, the prevailing reaction was "Which one?"

So yeah, they could make a movie about Tim Donaghy's story. And they probably will. Let's just hope we're not watching a documentary about the death of the NBA some day, because we're headed that way. Wake up, fellas. Rome is burning.

Bill Simmons is a columnist for Page 2 and ESPN The Magazine. His book "Now I Can Die In Peace" is available in paperback.




THE ZAPRUDER FILM
Follow-up note: A few hours after this column was posted on Sunday morning, an NBA fan posted "highlights" from Game 3 on YouTube that reveal Donaghy making a number of questionable calls during that Spurs-Suns game, including the three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili that I mentioned in my column (and two months ago as well).

After the call is made, play-by-play announcer Mike Breen calls it a "late whistle" three different times, then a replay of the play shows that there was no contact, followed by Breen saying "doesn't look like there was much there" and partner Jon Barry adding, "I don't know what he saw!"

Collectively, it's a damning collection of anti-Phoenix calls, although not all of them were made by Donaghy. Expect the highlights of this game to eventually become the Zapruder Film of the Donaghy Scandal. Sorry, Phoenix fans.

[Phil Hellmuth]

i like bill simmons, but i don't like this one. this article seems to overhype the game 3 officiating.

[Spurminator]

Pretty melodramatic...

[FromWayDowntown]

THE ZAPRUDER FILM
Follow-up note: A few hours after this column was posted on Sunday morning, an NBA fan posted "highlights" from Game 3 on YouTube that reveal Donaghy making a number of questionable calls during that Spurs-Suns game, including the three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili that I mentioned in my column (and two months ago as well).

After the call is made, play-by-play announcer Mike Breen calls it a "late whistle" three different times, then a replay of the play shows that there was no contact, followed by Breen saying "doesn't look like there was much there" and partner Jon Barry adding, "I don't know what he saw!"

Collectively, it's a damning collection of anti-Phoenix calls, although not all of them were made by Donaghy. Expect the highlights of this game to eventually become the Zapruder Film of the Donaghy Scandal. Sorry, Phoenix fans.

Just for the record -- Simmons didn't watch that video very closely. The video only shows two calls made by Donaghy (without regard to the quality of the calls) -- it does not "reveal Donaghy making a number of questionable calls during that Spurs-Suns game," unless "a number" contemplates a grand total of two. The only two calls in Donaghy's sphere on that video are the questionable call favoring Ginobili and a no-call on Duncan contesting a Stoudemire shot in the last 3 minutes of the game. All of the other calls (many of which are admittedly bad) were made by either Eddie F. Rush or Greg Willard. Neither of those guys is Tim Donaghy.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1872529&postcount=87

[monosylab1k]

i like bill simmons, but i don't like this one.
that's a shocker

[Phenomanul]

If Phoenix was clearly better why didn't they win Game 6? With a full roster, no less?

Also why does Simmons fail to even mention that the biggest 'anomaly' in the Spurs-Suns Game 3 was Steve Nash's shocking 0 for 12 start to the game? This stretch included two air balls and 2 missed free-throws... Wouldn't you think that Nash's offensive woes had something to do with that loss - instead of just pinning the whole thing on Donaghy?

That entire series was tarnished the moment Stoudemire opened his ignorant mouth to complain and start the whole 'war of words'... If anyone flopped in that series, it was Bell, and Nash, followed by Oberto and Ginobili.... Last I remember, the Suns were equally physical with the Spurs before Horry's infamous hip-check in Game 4. Steve inflicted his own cut nose, Marion undercut Parker, Barbosa undercut Parker, Marion poked Ginobili in the eye and raked his face (incidental of course). Plus I distinctly remember that Thomas kept pulling and tugging Duncan out of his uniform throughout the series. I also distinctly remember Bell plowing into Oberto during the second half of Game 4 and unwisely escalating the Horry-Nash incident to the point where it garnered suspensions for two of his teammates... It was Stoudemire who pushed Ginobili down to his knees before Ginobili held on to STAT's leg preventing his cut towards the basket (a move I would consider crafty moreso than dirty)... Yet somehow instead of admitting that playoff basketball is physical, and that regular season ball doesn't work as efficiently in this environment all Phoenix fans can whine about is, how the 'Spurs were dirty... blah blah blah'. Such hypocrisy is why they can't be taken seriously.

I

[Phenomanul]

Having said that however... any change in how NBA refs are held accountable for their decisions would be a good one.

[tlongII]

It's no surprise that Spurs fans would immediately discount this particular Simmons article. :rolleyes

[velik_m]

It's no surprise that Spurs fans would immediately discount this particular Simmons article. :rolleyes

tlong go back to browsing the web (http://www.adultsheepfinder.com)

[monosylab1k]

No surprise that non-Spurs fans would discount the fact that Simmons has hated the Spurs ever since his beloved Celtics lost the Duncan lottery, and can hardly be considered an unbiased reporter based on the body of his work since then.

yeah, that explains this article - http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070607

guess again, spur fan

[Shred]

The ref was crooked. Everything he touched is tainted. Quit pretending otherwise.

[monosylab1k]

The ref was crooked. Everything he touched is tainted. Quit pretending otherwise.
i dunno if i'd go quite that far, but this definitely raises some more interesting questions about that series.

[Testing]

If people were to go by biased refereeing or analyze every bad call made in the playoffs throughout the NBA history, I guarantee you that every champion would have an asterick next to their year. It's easy to say that this call went bad, and if it hadn't happen maybe the team wouldnt' have advanced etc.

In the end though, it always balances out in the NBA, which many people are forgetting. In a 7 game series, the BEST team always wins. You can't honestly tell me that the Suns were better than the Spurs last year?

And all you Mavs fans agreeing with this....you were pretty adament that the calls were fair and square when it involved your own team 2 seasons ago against the Spurs. Fan and "Analyst" biasness such as Bill Simmons is often taken for fact, when it's just the opinion of one single person.

[Shred]

If people were to go by biased refereeing or analyze every bad call made in the playoffs throughout the NBA history, I guarantee you that every champion would have an asterick next to their year. It's easy to say that this call went bad, and if it hadn't happen maybe the team wouldnt' have advanced etc.

In the end though, it always balances out in the NBA, which many people are forgetting. In a 7 game series, the BEST team always wins. You can't honestly tell me that the Suns were better than the Spurs last year?

And all you Mavs fans agreeing with this....you were pretty adament that the calls were fair and square when it involved your own team 2 seasons ago against the Spurs. Fan and "Analyst" biasness such as Bill Simmons is often taken for fact, when it's just the opinion of one single person.

You can't rationalize what Donaghy did. It strikes at the core of the integrity of the game.

[Phenomanul]

You can't rationalize what Donaghy did. It strikes at the core of the integrity of the game.


Just like you can't claim that Donaghy alone was the reason the Suns lost the series. That strikes the core of integrity itself.

[Shred]

Just like you can't claim that Donaghy alone was the reason the Suns lost the series. That strikes the core of integrity itself.

???

Just like YOU can't claim Donaghy is the reason for high gas prices.

[monosylab1k]

Just like you can't claim that Donaghy alone was the reason the Suns lost the series. That strikes the core of integrity itself.
the fuck?

[tlongII]

If people were to go by biased refereeing or analyze every bad call made in the playoffs throughout the NBA history, I guarantee you that every champion would have an asterick next to their year. It's easy to say that this call went bad, and if it hadn't happen maybe the team wouldnt' have advanced etc.

In the end though, it always balances out in the NBA, which many people are forgetting. In a 7 game series, the BEST team always wins. You can't honestly tell me that the Suns were better than the Spurs last year?

And all you Mavs fans agreeing with this....you were pretty adament that the calls were fair and square when it involved your own team 2 seasons ago against the Spurs. Fan and "Analyst" biasness such as Bill Simmons is often taken for fact, when it's just the opinion of one single person.


Oh really?! How did Golden State beat Dallas then? You don't honestly believe that Golden State had a better team than Dallas do you?

[monosylab1k]

Suns were probably never gonna win that series anyway....but this definitely makes you wonder about game 3.

[monosylab1k]

and this is in the New York Post, so take it with a huge grain of salt.......but Donaghy is expected to give up names of other officials, coaches, and players that were also involved in this scandal.

[Phenomanul]

???

Just like YOU can't claim Donaghy is the reason for high gas prices.


One game....

The Series was a best of seven...

Do the math and deal with it.

[td4mvp3]

The ref was crooked. Everything he touched is tainted. Quit pretending otherwise.
because the suns definitely shouldn't have won that game against the lakers that this ref called.

[Phenomanul]

the fuck?



One game....

The Series was a best of seven...

Do the math and deal with it.

[Mister Sinister]

If Phoenix was clearly better why didn't they win Game 6? With a full roster?

Also why does Simmons fail to even mention that the biggest 'anomaly' in the Spurs-Suns Game 3 was Steve Nash's 0 for 12 start to the game? This stretch included two air balls and 2 missed free-throws... Wouldn't you think that Nash's offensive woes had something to do with that loss - instead of just pinning the whole thing on Donaghy?

That entire series was tarnished the moment Stoudemire opened his ignorant mouth to start the whole 'war of words'... If anyone flopped in that series, it was Bell, and Nash, followed by Oberto and Ginobili.... Last I remember, the Suns were equally physical with the Spurs before Horry's infamous hip-check in Game 4. Steve inflicted his own cut nose, Marion undercut Parker, Barbosa undercut Parker, Marion poked Ginobili in the eye and raked his face, Thomas kept pulling Duncan out of his uniform, Bell plowed into Oberto and it was Stoudemire who pushed Ginobili down to his knees before Ginobili held on to Stat's leg (a move I would consider crafty - not necessarily dirty)... Yet somehow instead of admitting that playoff basketball is physical, and that regular season ball doesn't work in this environment all Phoenix fans can whine about is, how the 'Spurs were dirty'. Such hypocrisy is why they can't be taken seriously.
You may want to dumb that down. You know, so the little baby-bitch Suns fans can understand it. Big words make their heads hurt.

[Phenomanul]

Any other wise cracks???

[Mister Sinister]

Any other wise cracks???
Lemme get back to you on that. I'm thinkin'.

[monosylab1k]

One game....

The Series was a best of seven...

Do the math and deal with it.
every game counts

[monosylab1k]

Any other wise cracks???
only about your mother

[td4mvp3]

every game counts
yeah. every game counts exactly as much as every other game in a 7-game series. unless the suns are saying each of the spurs' wins was fixed, then the game 3 loss, however questionable, remained very correctable by winning game 6 with a full roster and much like the pistons did in 05, and then winning game 7 at phoenix. the idea that the series was compromised, based on what is known so far, is asinine.

[Phenomanul]

Lemme get back to you on that. I'm thinkin'.


I was asking Shred and monosylab1k... who feel compelled to convice me that Donaghy was the reason the Suns lost their series against the Spurs.

[monosylab1k]

yeah. every game counts exactly as much as every other game in a 7-game series. unless the suns are saying each of the spurs' wins was fixed, then the game 3 loss, however questionable, remained very correctable by winning game 6 with a full roster and much like the pistons did in 05, and then winning game 7 at phoenix. the idea that the series was compromised, based on what is known so far, is asinine.
i never said anything except that there are serious questions raised regarding game 3....that's all....i'm not even a fucking Suns fan.

[Mister Sinister]

Ohhh. My bad.

[monosylab1k]

I was asking Shred and monosylab1k... who feel compelled to convice me that Donaghy was the reason the Suns lost their series against the Spurs.
read what I said again dumbass, I said nothing of the sort

[Phenomanul]

only about your mother


Typical...


Can't come back with substance and so you resort to childish antics...

I rest my case.

[Phenomanul]

read what I said again dumbass, I said nothing of the sort

Then why argue?

[Mister Sinister]

Hey, I don't mind other people's childish antics. They're funny. In a, morbidly amusing, kind of depressingly pathetic sort of way.

[monosylab1k]

Typical...


Can't come back with substance and so you resort to childish antics...

I rest my case.
I won't elevate my language when you aren't even interested in reading what I actually said. so fuck off.

[monosylab1k]

Then why argue?
when did I argue?

[Phenomanul]

every game counts

Too bad Game 1 and Game 6 don't help the conspiracists' cause....


I won't elevate my language when you aren't even interested in reading what I actually said. so fuck off.

Good... So I see you are staying true to yourself.... :tu

[da_suns_fan__]

Why do Spurs fans keep pointing to game six?

The Suns shouldn't have to make up for the refs and leagues actions by winning a single game in San Antonio.

[da_suns_fan__]

Too bad Game 1 and Game 6 don't help the conspiracists' cause....

Gotta win four games. Not two.

Suns won games two and four.

[Mister Sinister]

Why do Spurs fans keep pointing to game six?

The Suns shouldn't have to make up for the refs and leagues actions by winning a single game in San Antonio.
Probably for the same reason y'all keep bitching about the league enforcing a rule that's been on the books for years, and one that has been routinely enforced.

[Phenomanul]

when did I argue?


What was post #17 about then???

Did you not understand the word play involved in rerarranging Shred's dismissal of Testing's Post #13 on Post #15?

[Phenomanul]

Gotta win four games. Not two.

Suns won games two and four.


By that logic Game 3 alone can't decide the series.....


Zing!

[td4mvp3]

Why do Spurs fans keep pointing to game six?

The Suns shouldn't have to make up for the refs and leagues actions by winning a single game in San Antonio.
:lmao
because, even had they won game 3, they would still have needed to win game 6 in order to keep it from going 7. and, as pointed out, for all the crying about game 3, the fact that they lost game 6 with a full roster makes it harder to believe that game 3 should be held to some different standard considering the spurs beat the suns 3 other times.

[monosylab1k]

What was post #17 about then???

Did you not understand the word play involved in rerarranging Shred's dismissal on post #15?
i just didn't understand what the fuck you meant by it striking the core of integrity itself or whatever the hell you said. i have a sneaky suspicion that you really don't know what the hell that means either.

[Phil Hellmuth]

damn suns fans are having a real boring, slow, sad, depressing summer.

*points and laughs*

[da_suns_fan__]

By that logic Game 3 alone can't decide the series.....


Zing!

Game 3 AND Game 5 can.

Spurs were the lesser team. I think the recent news just proves what everyone already knew.

[Mister Sinister]

Game 3 AND Game 5 can.

Spurs were the lesser team. I think the recent news just proves what everyone already knew.
Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Oh, *dear.* That brought much lulz to my heart.

[td4mvp3]

i never said anything except that there are serious questions raised regarding game 3....that's all....i'm not even a fucking Suns fan.
i give you that, i suppose i was answering the other poster who called the entire series in question, which simmons' article also intimates, and really, that's what really gets spurs fans upset. but even on the game 3 note, i bet we can find calls against the spurs that were equally as dubious to show that things offset each other.

[da_suns_fan__]

:lmao
because, even had they won game 3, they would still have needed to win game 6 in order to keep it from going 7. and, as pointed out, for all the crying about game 3, the fact that they lost game 6 with a full roster makes it harder to believe that game 3 should be held to some different standard considering the spurs beat the suns 3 other times.

I would love the Suns chances in a game seven at home.

If the league didn't suspend Amare and Boris, you could argue Suns would have won it in five.

[monosylab1k]

because, even had they won game 3, they would still have needed to win game 6 in order to keep it from going 7.
not that i'm defending Sun fan, but even if they lost game 6 and it went to 7, are you assuming the Spurs would have won that game?

i, for one, wouldn't immediately assume that the Spurs will automatically win a game 7 in the WCSF...

[da_suns_fan__]

not that i'm defending Sun fan, but even if they lost game 6 and it went to 7, are you assuming the Spurs would have won that game?

i, for one, wouldn't immediately assume that the Spurs will automatically win a game 7 in the WCSF...

He's definately got a point Spurs fans.

[td4mvp3]

I would love the Suns chances in a game seven at home.

If the league didn't suspend Amare and Boris, you could argue Suns would have won it in five.
but that is exactly why folks bring up game 6. there were no excuses, no broken noses, kneed groins, crooked refs (that we know of), or banned participants (aside for horry). would the suns have won game 5? based on game 4, maybe, based on game 1,3 and 6, maybe not. everyone would have loved to have seen it go seven, but the suns whiffed in game 6.

[td4mvp3]

not that i'm defending Sun fan, but even if they lost game 6 and it went to 7, are you assuming the Spurs would have won that game?

i, for one, wouldn't immediately assume that the Spurs will automatically win a game 7 in the WCSF...
what i said to the other guy. had the pattern been kept during that series, then the spurs had a good shot (win 1, loss 2, win 3, loss 4, win 5, loss 6, win 7).

[Phenomanul]

not that i'm defending Sun fan, but even if they lost game 6 and it went to 7, are you assuming the Spurs would have won that game?

i, for one, wouldn't immediately assume that the Spurs will automatically win a game 7 in the WCSF...


I could care less whether or not you feel compelled to bond with Suns fans and jock all over this story when bigger officiating screw-ups tarnished the Mavs-Spurs 2006 series and the Mavs-Heat Finals last season.

The Suns had nothing, before the Donaghy story. Nothing.... So somehow now they feel entitled to claim that their Suns were robbed, because of one game??? If they hadn't been crying like chicken little before this story surfaced I would probably have given their arguements a little more merit. The fact of the matter, however is that they've been complaining the whole time. That's why now their sudden screams of 'WOLF!!!!" don't carry much weight....

[Phenomanul]

i just didn't understand what the fuck you meant by it striking the core of integrity itself or whatever the hell you said. i have a sneaky suspicion that you really don't know what the hell that means either.


I know what I said... and I meant it.

[Phenomanul]

Game 3 AND Game 5 can.

Spurs were the lesser team. I think the recent news just proves what everyone already knew.


So tell us again how Tim Donaghy influenced the outcome of Game 5????

[da_suns_fan__]

but that is exactly why folks bring up game 6. there were no excuses, no broken noses, kneed groins, crooked refs (that we know of), or banned participants (aside for horry). would the suns have won game 5? based on game 4, maybe, based on game 1,3 and 6, maybe not. everyone would have loved to have seen it go seven, but the suns whiffed in game 6.

NBA Champions don't win EVERY SINGLE GAME!

The Spurs lost games two and four (with a full roster), therefore, by your logic they "whiffed"?

There's no getting around the fact that this series was completely tainted.

End of story.

[Phenomanul]

NBA Champions don't win EVERY SINGLE GAME!

The Spurs lost games two and four (with a full roster), therefore, by your logic they "whiffed"?

There's no getting around the fact that this series was completely tainted.

End of story.

Didn't the Suns have a 19 point lead in the 2nd half of Game 5? They should have won that game even without STAT and Diaw... Don't excuse them for that choke job.

[Sec24Row7]

I would love the Suns chances in a game seven at home.

If the league didn't suspend Amare and Boris, you could argue Suns would have won it in five.


AHAHAHAHAAHAHHA

Spurs won in 6 and you think Suns would have won in 5 had Amare and Boris not been suspended?

ROFL

[Leetonidas]

I would love the Suns chances in a game seven at home.

If the league didn't suspend Amare and Boris, you could argue Suns would have won it in five.
:lmao

The Series was tied at 2-2 when Diaw and Stoudemire were suspended, meaning your team would had to win in at least 6 games you fucking idiot. :lmao

[Leetonidas]

Let's not forget that the Spurs beat the Suns in Game 6 missing their first big off the bench too. :rolleyes

[O-Factor]

i bet we can find calls against the spurs that were equally as dubious to show that things offset each other.


Like Kurt Thomas holding Duncan on just about every offensive possesion the Spurs have, that TNT clearly showed. Thats a FOUL every time for any suns fan who doesn't know that. Did Tim get those calls? Hardly.

[da_suns_fan__]

:lmao

The Series was tied at 2-2 when Diaw and Stoudemire were suspended, meaning your team would had to win in at least 6 games you fucking idiot. :lmao

Hey DUMBASS,

This thread is about how the Suns were robbed in game 3.

So, like i said, if the league didn't suspend Amare and Boris, that would be four wins (games 2,3,4 and 5) for the Suns.

The irony.

[Leetonidas]

I'm going to laugh my nutsack off if Tim Donaghy comes at and says the Spurs-Suns series wasn't one he fixed.

[Mister Sinister]

Didn't the Suns have a 19 point lead in the 2nd half of Game 5? They should have won that game even without STAT and Diaw... Don't excuse them for that choke job.
Bowen did it!

[Leetonidas]

DUMBASS!

This thread is about how the Suns were robbed in game 3.

So, like i said, if the league didn't suspend Amare and Boris, that would be four wins (games 2,3,4 and 5) for the Suns.
You're fucking pathetic. :lmao

[Shred]

I was asking Shred and monosylab1k... who feel compelled to convice me that Donaghy was the reason the Suns lost their series against the Spurs.

When the hell did I ever say that?

[da_suns_fan__]

You're fucking pathetic. :lmao

Uh okay.

But my team is the best in the world. These recent events prove it.

[O-Factor]

but that is exactly why folks bring up game 6. there were no excuses, no broken noses, kneed groins, crooked refs (that we know of), or banned participants (aside for horry). would the suns have won game 5? based on game 4, maybe, based on game 1,3 and 6, maybe not. everyone would have loved to have seen it go seven, but the suns whiffed in game 6.

In 9 games the Spurs/suns played last season the suns only won 3. They went 3 of 9 against the Spurs. Oh, AND we won the title.

[Shred]

Crooked ref = tainted series. 'Nuff said.

[Leetonidas]

Enjoy your countless posts of bitching and whining, Sun Fan, because it's not going to change the fact that the Spurs have 4 rings and the Suns have, and will continue to have, none.

[Mister Sinister]

Uh okay.

But my team is the best in the world. These recent events prove it.
What's it like? Having your head as far up your ass as it seems to be?

[O-Factor]

4

[da_suns_fan__]

Crooked ref = tainted series. 'Nuff said.

I agree. Thats all there is to it.

But its fun to watch the Spurs fans spin it.

[Leetonidas]

Uh okay.

But my team is the best in the world. These recent events prove it.
The "best team in the world" would've been able to take a Spurs team missing their first big off the bench in Robert Horry in Game 6 you piece of shit. You guys like to downplay his significance to the Spurs because he's old, but he is the Spurs' best big man outside of Tim Duncan.

[monosylab1k]

I know what I said... and I meant it.
so let's hear an explanation of what "striking the core of integrity itself" fucking means

[O-Factor]

I agree. Thats all there is to it.

But its fun to watch the Spurs fans spin it.

Its more fun to have the rings and watch suns fan whine about it.

[Mister Sinister]

I agree.

[da_suns_fan__]

The "best team in the world" would've been able to take a Spurs team missing their first big off the bench in Robert Horry in Game 6 you piece of shit. You guys like to downplay his significance to the Spurs because he's old, but he is the Spurs' best big man outside of Tim Duncan.

Under what extraordinary circumstances would you admit that the Suns were the better team and that the series was tainted.

Is there any other way to possibly tarnish this series more?

There was a freaking referee calling games in your favor.

The Suns had their key players suspended for a game five when the series was tied (despite the Spurs officiating advantage).

[Mister Sinister]

Under what extraordinary circumstances would you admit that the Suns were the better team and that the series was tainted.

Is there any other way to possibly tarnish this series more?

There was a freaking referee calling games in your favor.

The Suns had their key players suspended for a game five when the series was tied (despite the Spurs officiating advantage).
We're not going to admit it because IT ISN'T FUCKING TRUE!!!!! you biased p.o.s!

[da_suns_fan__]

We're not going to admit it because IT ISN'T FUCKING TRUE!!!!! you biased p.o.s!

EVERYTHING i said is true.

Thank God for the FBI. We finally have the truth.

[Mister Sinister]

EVERYTHING i said is true.

Thank God for the FBI. We finally have the truth.
http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/epic_failure_seal.gif

[Oh, Gee!!]

Under what extraordinary circumstances would you admit that the Suns were the better team and that the series was tainted.

Is there any other way to possibly tarnish this series more?

There was a freaking referee calling games in your favor.

The Suns had their key players suspended for a game five when the series was tied (despite the Spurs officiating advantage).


at least the mob likes the Spurs.

[Leetonidas]

Under what extraordinary circumstances would you admit that the Suns were the better team and that the series was tainted.

Is there any other way to possibly tarnish this series more?

There was a freaking referee calling games in your favor.

The Suns had their key players suspended for a game five when the series was tied (despite the Spurs officiating advantage).
The series may have been tainted, however, the Spurs would've whipped the Suns' asses in 7 games either way so shut the fuck up and quit bitching about it. Like I said, if the Suns were the best team in the world, they'd have been able to win Game 6.

And for what it's worth, had the Mavericks not lost to GS and the Spurs lost to Phoenix instead, Dallas would've kicked Phoenix's ass.

[td4mvp3]

NBA Champions don't win EVERY SINGLE GAME!

The Spurs lost games two and four (with a full roster), therefore, by your logic they "whiffed"?

There's no getting around the fact that this series was completely tainted.

End of story.
losing by 20 after keeping the suns down in the first half of game 2? yeah, they whiffed it.

tanking in game 4 after leading by double digits in the fourth? yep, another whiff.

but regardless of how we categorize the losses, the point is that they were not beaten for the series in that one game. no, every game didn't need to be won, but the idea that this one game somehow counts more than the other three is silly. so far, one ref is implicated in shaving games, but no one knows which games and which teams. on top of that, this one game loss didn't decide the series because the suns had games 5 and 6 to get it back, and game 6 had no excuses for the loss.

[Extra Stout]

EVERYTHING i said is true.

Thank God for the FBI. We finally have the truth.
My cousin Rino is going to have you whacked if you don't stop squealing. We gots connections.

[leemajors]

Game 3 AND Game 5 can.

Spurs were the lesser team. I think the recent news just proves what everyone already knew.
the "lesser" team sure got double digit leads in nearly every game consistently.

[Johnny RIngo]

The Spurs should have been playing the Lakers in the Conference Semis. Donaghy fixed the S0ns-Lakers series and gave Phoenix an unfair advantage(not surprising considering Mike D'Antoni and Colangelo's ties with the Italian mob)

[Testing]

You could go on and on with the what if's of the series. Move on people...even if the Suns had magically gotten past the Spurs, you know for sure they could have beaten the Cavs and Jazz.......two far superior defensive teams than the Suns?

Defense always wins championships, ALWAYS. And the Suns don't play enough of it to win a series. Marion and Bell are slightly above average defenders, that's about all you have on that team. You can score as many points as you want, but you have to be able to stop the other team from catching up....this has been the downfall of the Suns for the past 3 seasons~! Don't blame it on circumstances, blame it on your coach and his system.

Either way, if Suns fans thinks the calls against them in that series were "biased" I guarantee you every Jazz fan from the 90's, every Pacers fan from the 90's, every Net's team from 2000 on felt the same way. Every series, there is dubious calls against the losing team which can be said looking back well if that call hadn't been made...they could have won. Point is they didn't. Spurs got clouded by the Mavs and refs the year before...........but they came back and took it to 7 games despite this. Did the Suns?

If the Suns were clearly the better team as you beleive, wouldn't they have been able to put all their anger/frustration aside...after all this is the playoffs, and go to SA and win Game 6 with their entire roster in tact? No bloody noses, no suspensions, etc?

[Phenomanul]

so let's hear an explanation of what "striking the core of integrity itself" fucking means

Slang version: "Don't kid yourself" :reading

[monosylab1k]

Slang version: "Don't kid yourself" :reading
more believable version: you had no clue what the fuck you were saying, because nobody could say something as ridiculous as "striking the core of integrity itself" and have any idea what the hell they mean by it.

[Phenomanul]

more believable version: you had no clue what the fuck you were saying, because nobody could say something as ridiculous as "striking the core of integrity itself" and have any idea what the hell they mean by it.


OK... you want to drag this further? Fine by me.... just don't go crying with your tail between your legs after I'm done with you. :toast

Post #13


If people were to go by biased refereeing or analyze every bad call made in the playoffs throughout the NBA history, I guarantee you that every champion would have an asterick next to their year. It's easy to say that this call went bad, and if it hadn't happen maybe the team wouldnt' have advanced etc.

In the end though, it always balances out in the NBA, which many people are forgetting. In a 7 game series, the BEST team always wins. You can't honestly tell me that the Suns were better than the Spurs last year?

And all you Mavs fans agreeing with this....you were pretty adament that the calls were fair and square when it involved your own team 2 seasons ago against the Spurs. Fan and "Analyst" biasness such as Bill Simmons is often taken for fact, when it's just the opinion of one single person.

Shred's remark: Post #14



You can't rationalize what Donaghy did. It strikes at the core of the integrity of the game.

My rearrangement of Shred's comment: Post #15

Just like you can't claim that Donaghy alone was the reason the Suns lost the series. That strikes the core of integrity itself.

If Shred claimed that:

The ref was crooked. Everything he touched is tainted. Quit pretending otherwise.

Which even you agreed was an exaggeration in Post #12, why then would my comment not be relevant?

Here it goes....

You ready....

His comment strikes at truth itself... as in, his comment is a slap in the face to veracity (i.e. truth). He would have to be lying to himself in order for him to believe it. The rearrangement of the words was needed to convey a sense of parallelism... Understand now?

Geeesh... seriously... people need to stop pickin' battles they're not entirely equipped to engage.

I refuse to and will not discuss this aspect of the argument any further.

[monosylab1k]

"striking at the core of the integrity of the game" makes perfect sense. "striking at the core of integrity itself" makes no fucking sense at all. bottom line.

integrity of what? what integrity is being challenged by you? he said the integrity of the game.....you said "integrity itself".

you basically said that the integrity of integrity was being challenged.....so, again, how the fuck can integrity have integrity? Explain that one to me, genius. Or do I need to provide a 4th grade grammar lesson as well?


He would have to be lying to himself in order for him to believe it. The rearrangement of the words was needed to convey a sense of parallelism... Understand now?

No, the rearrangement of words was your attempt to be clever. Unfortunately since you had no grasp of the words you were using you were clueless that you just said something incredibly stupid.


Geeesh... seriously... people need to stop pickin' battles they're not entirely equipped to engage.

Good advice, I hope you start following it.


I refuse to and will not discuss this aspect of the argument any further.

Sounds to me like you realize that you've got nothing. Good idea. No need to dig your own hole any deeper.

[monosylab1k]

everbody!

say "it strkes at the very core of integrity itself" in your best George W. Bush voice. fucking hilarious! and it sounds exactly like something that Dubya would say!

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'm wondering what the hell kind of point Simmons is trying to make. Immediately after game 3 he writes:

Congratulations to Greg Willard, Tim Donaghy and Eddie F. Rush for giving us the most atrociously officiated game of the playoffs so far: Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series. Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington and Violet Palmer must have been outraged that they weren't involved in this mess. Good golly. Most of the calls favored the Spurs, but I don't even think the refs were biased -- they were so incompetent that there was no rhyme or reason to anything that was happening. Other than the latest call in NBA history (a shooting foul for Manu Ginobili whistled three seconds after the play, when everyone was already running in the other direction), my favorite moment happened near the end, when the game was already over and they called a cheap bump on Bruce Bowen against Nash, so the cameras caught Mike D'Antoni (the most entertaining coach in the league if he's not getting calls) screaming sarcastically, "Why start now? Why bother?" What a travesty. Not since the cocaine era from 1978-1986 has the league faced a bigger ongoing issue than crappy officiating.

So back in May, right after game 3, he felt that the outcome of the game was influenced by sub par refs. But when all the dust had settled, he felt like the Spurs were the better team. I know that because he goes on to write:



I left that series believing that the Spurs were better, that their offensive execution was unparalleled, that Tim Duncan was the best player on the court, that they would have figured out a way to win that series whether the suspensions happened or not. Now? I'm not so sure. What if an allegedly crooked referee hadn't been working Game 3? What if the Suns won that game? What then?

So now, because a suspect ref may have influenced the game, the Spurs might not be the better team? Regardless of why the calls were bad, why does that suddenly change whether or not the Spurs were the better team? The Spurs are better if they are aided by general incompetence but if a shady ref was making calls for them they aren't better?

[td4mvp3]

"striking at the core of the integrity of the game" makes perfect sense. "striking at the core of integrity itself" makes no fucking sense at all. bottom line.

integrity of what? what integrity is being challenged by you? he said the integrity of the game.....you said "integrity itself".

you basically said that the integrity of integrity was being challenged.....so, again, how the fuck can integrity have integrity? Explain that one to me, genius. Or do I need to provide a 4th grade grammar lesson as well?



No, the rearrangement of words was your attempt to be clever. Unfortunately since you had no grasp of the words you were using you were clueless that you just said something incredibly stupid.



Good advice, I hope you start following it.



Sounds to me like you realize that you've got nothing. Good idea. No need to dig your own hole any deeper.
actually, there's nothing really wrong with saying striking at the core of integrity. the idea of "integrity" is a thing in much the same way honor, courage and truth are. to strike at the core of integrity, then, would mean to question the very foundations and definition of the concept in and of itself, not necessarily the integrity of a thing. that is to say, when you mention the "integrity" of the game, you are speaking of the basic values and assumptions of fair play that fans and spectators expect when watching or participating in the sport. but "integrity" obviously can be applied to more than just sport: the integrity of politicians, the integrity of parents, etc. that core idea of "integrity," not as a description or characteristic of some other thing, is, i believe, what he is getting at, that is to say, that following your logic would be a blow to the very definition of integrity regardless of its context. my 2 cents, i'd like my change and shall not speak more to the subject. i'm also not giving you gruff or being glib, just saying he is not in the wrong for his usage of "integrity" in the manner that he did.

[monosylab1k]

actually, there's nothing really wrong with saying striking at the core of integrity. the idea of "integrity" is a thing in much the same way honor, courage and truth are. to strike at the core of integrity, then, would mean to question the very foundations and definition of the concept in and of itself, not necessarily the integrity of a thing. that is to say, when you mention the "integrity" of the game, you are speaking of the basic values and assumptions of fair play that fans and spectators expect when watching or participating in the sport. but "integrity" obviously can be applied to more than just sport: the integrity of politicians, the integrity of parents, etc. that core idea of "integrity," not as a description or characteristic of some other thing, is, i believe, what he is getting at, that is to say, that following your logic would be a blow to the very definition of integrity regardless of its context. my 2 cents, i'd like my change and shall not speak more to the subject. i'm also not giving you gruff or being glib, just saying he is not in the wrong for his usage of "integrity" in the manner that he did.

let's all discus the integrity of integrity then. makes perfect sense.

[monosylab1k]

that following your logic would be a blow to the very definition of integrity regardless of its context

how could do anything to the definition of integrity? it would be YOUR integrity that's being challenged, not the "integrity of integrity". it makes no sense, end of story.

[StylisticS]

And all you Mavs fans agreeing with this....you were pretty adament that the calls were fair and square when it involved your own team 2 seasons ago against the Spurs. Fan and "Analyst" biasness such as Bill Simmons is often taken for fact, when it's just the opinion of one single person.
I hate to say it. But. Good point. The Spurs got fucked in that series.

[Phenomanul]

let's all discus the integrity of integrity then. makes perfect sense.



how could do anything to the definition of integrity? it would be YOUR integrity that's being challenged, not the "integrity of integrity". it makes no sense, end of story.


Obviously you still don't get it...

I need not say more... your utter refusal to accept the explanation given on grounds that your lack of comprehension would be exposed, was understandable and yet quite predictable.

Nothing personal...

[td4mvp3]

how could do anything to the definition of integrity? it would be YOUR integrity that's being challenged, not the "integrity of integrity". it makes no sense, end of story.

ok, let's try an analogy (and yes, i lied about not saying anything else on the subject, i just didn't feel like my explaination was plain enough).

if i say i'm going to run slower than mud by running 300 miles per hour, i've obviously screwed up the concept of "slower." by definition, slower means a certain something that NORMALLY means going less than 300 miles per hour. if you accept my logic in the first sentence, however, then you have to change the basic notion, the very definition, of "slower." similarly, he's saying that HE thinks that accepting your rationale would thus force someone to change the very definition of "integrity."

so, when it was stated





You can't rationalize what Donaghy did. It strikes at the core of the integrity of the game.




Just like you can't claim that Donaghy alone was the reason the Suns lost the series. That strikes the core of integrity itself.


the guy is saying that to claim the ref alone caused the series loss is as baseless as rationalizing away the ref's actions and that, to allow the former but not the latter, can only occur by changing the definition of what "integrity" means. and there's nothing wrong with saying it.

[Shred]

the guy is saying that to claim the ref alone caused the series loss is as baseless as rationalizing away the ref's actions and that, to allow the former but not the latter, can only occur by changing the definition of what "integrity" means. and there's nothing wrong with saying it.

When did I ever make such a claim?

[Marcus Bryant]

If it was the C's instead of the Spurs Simmons would be singing a different tune. Oh well, he needed to channel that hate somewhere.

[Switchman]

The sky is falling.

[SpursWoman]

and this is in the New York Post, so take it with a huge grain of salt.......but Donaghy is expected to give up names of other officials, coaches, and players that were also involved in this scandal.


I'll bet it was all 18 that worked the Suns/Spurs series. You in? :eyebrows :lol

[justanotherspursfan]

Hey DUMBASS,

This thread is about how the Suns were robbed in game 3.

So, like i said, if the league didn't suspend Amare and Boris, that would be four wins (games 2,3,4 and 5) for the Suns.

The irony.
Hey, rocket scientist. You guys won two games.

There's no clear evidence that Game 3 was tampered with yet. Even If it was tampered with (which has NOT been demonstrated), the line was Spurs by 4 and we won by 7. If the line had swung the other way, we might have won by 2 for all anyone knows. For that matter, maybe he was tampering with the O/u instead -- for all we know, he may have helped the Suns more than the Spurs, and the Suns were just too incompetent to take advantage of it.

Whatever comes out, no one will ever know what would have happened if the game had been officiated fairly. To say that it's just a fact that you would have won is just idiocy.

Likewise, you guys lost your dumbass players for Game 5 according to the rules of the NBA. If it hadn't happened, who the hell knows who would have won? It's certainly not a lock that the Suns walk away with that one, either.

If it turns out that Game 3 was tampered with -- which, again, is still WAY too early to determine -- then it fucking sucks, because we'll never know what would have happened if we'd played straight up. But it certainly doesn't mean that the Suns would have won either the series or the title. It just means that we were all robbed of the opportunity to find out for sure.

I'd say that we'll have to settle things in next year's playoffs, except that moron Suns fans like you will probably make excuses again next year when you get your asses kicked about how it's not fair because your fucking moron owner is selling off the team out from under you, player by player. So I guess the teams will have to settle it next year, but the whining will go on eternally.

[E20]

If Phoenix was clearly better why didn't they win Game 6? With a full roster, no less?

Also why does Simmons fail to even mention that the biggest 'anomaly' in the Spurs-Suns Game 3 was Steve Nash's shocking 0 for 12 start to the game? This stretch included two air balls and 2 missed free-throws... Wouldn't you think that Nash's offensive woes had something to do with that loss - instead of just pinning the whole thing on Donaghy?

That entire series was tarnished the moment Stoudemire opened his ignorant mouth to complain and start the whole 'war of words'... If anyone flopped in that series, it was Bell, and Nash, followed by Oberto and Ginobili.... Last I remember, the Suns were equally physical with the Spurs before Horry's infamous hip-check in Game 4. Steve inflicted his own cut nose, Marion undercut Parker, Barbosa undercut Parker, Marion poked Ginobili in the eye and raked his face (incidental of course). Plus I distinctly remember that Thomas kept pulling and tugging Duncan out of his uniform throughout the series. I also distinctly remember Bell plowing into Oberto during the second half of Game 4 and unwisely escalating the Horry-Nash incident to the point where it garnered suspensions for two of his teammates... It was Stoudemire who pushed Ginobili down to his knees before Ginobili held on to STAT's leg preventing his cut towards the basket (a move I would consider crafty moreso than dirty)... Yet somehow instead of admitting that playoff basketball is physical, and that regular season ball doesn't work as efficiently in this environment all Phoenix fans can whine about is, how the 'Spurs were dirty... blah blah blah'. Such hypocrisy is why they can't be taken seriously.

I
:tu PWN3D

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

:rollin

Another asterisk?

SpurFan just can't win.

[td4mvp3]

When did I ever make such a claim?
i meant who ever said "Just like you can't claim that Donaghy alone was the reason the Suns lost the series. That strikes the core of integrity itself"

[slayermin]

:rollin

Another asterisk?

SpurFan just can't win.

ET tu, Brute? Et tu?

Over the years, the Spurs have been screwed over by the refs as much as any team. Donagy worked a couple of playoff games we lost in the '06. But like Bill Walton said, if you didn't hear the Spurs complain after games three and four in Dallas from 2006, you will never hear them complain.

I've lost a lot of respect for Steve Nash. His whining is becoming Kobeish. I wish he would show some class and stfu.

I hope we archive some of these threads so we can call out the people who are dead wrong when all the facts are revealed. I have been a huge critic of referees for years and the Donagy situation didn't surprise me.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

If he altered just one call in any playoff game, the entire playoff season is tainted, hence the *.

Doesn't matter if it was for the Spurs, Magic, Pistons, Warriors, Mavs, Suns, to go O/U, etc.

It's that simple.

[td4mvp3]

If he altered just one call in any playoff game, the entire playoff season is tainted, hence the *.

Doesn't matter if it was for the Spurs, Magic, Pistons, Warriors, Mavs, Suns, to go O/U, etc.

It's that simple.
because the pistons had no business sweeping the magic?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

because the pistons had no business sweeping the magic?


The teams do not matter. Having games, totals or spreads that are predetermined to go a certain way do...

[td4mvp3]

The teams do not matter. Having games, totals or spreads that are predetermined to go a certain way do...
yes, it matters to those games affected, not the entire playoff. if the fix affects one game, i don't see how that affects everything else so long as no other fixes occur. the rest of the east, if things stay as they are, wasn't affected at all by the spurs-suns. the cavs had little chance against the spurs, jazz, phoenix or golden state.

[Booharv]

Seriously, I could give a shit less about Simmons. He is so overrated.

[td4mvp21]

:rollin

Another asterisk?

SpurFan just can't win.

Oh, we've already won 4 times and planning for more. I don't know what you're talking about :wtf

[jmard5]

Crooked ref = tainted series. 'Nuff said.

Crooked ref = possibly tainted ONE game where the Spurs were expected to win.

[SRJ]

God, someone contract the fucking Phoenix Suns already. They got punked in the 1969 draft, the 1987 draft, the 1976 Finals, and the 1993 Finals. They can't win, and they can't handle it when they lose. Who needs them?

[Shaolin-Style]

Too bad they won't let the Suns have a rematch with the Spurs.

Because the Spurs would STILL win, but I'm sure their diehard fans such as Simmons would still find someway to justify their whining.

[FromWayDowntown]

In light of threads like this one, I would actually laugh out loud if we learn later that Donaghy had bet on Game 3, but had taken the Suns.

In any event, threads like this one are perfect evidence of just how disruptive a scandal like this one is and will be to the NBA. It's about the worst thing that could ever happen.

other than, maybe, making the world spend a summer listening to Suns fans. . . . :D

[cherylsteele]

Oh really?! How did Golden State beat Dallas then?
The same way the Nuggets beat the Sonics in 1994.
Their were those who predicted an upset before the playoffs started this year.

[justanotherspursfan]

The same way the Nuggets beat the Sonics in 1994.
Their were those who predicted an upset before the playoffs started this year.
Definitely. I visited some Mav fan relatives in early April who were flatly afraid of meeting the Warriors in the playoffs because the Mavs had sucked against them all year.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Sun fan wants every rule in the rulebook to be perfectly enforced, except possibly the clearest fucking one of them all...

[Shred]

Sun fan wants every rule in the rulebook to be perfectly enforced, except possibly the clearest fucking one of them all...

It really is outrageous, the way Suns fans (and the rest of the world) expect the refs to be on the up & up. Naive!

[Shred]

i meant who ever said "Just like you can't claim that Donaghy alone was the reason the Suns lost the series. That strikes the core of integrity itself"

Never said that either, but keep trying.

[Mister Sinister]

It really is outrageous, the way Suns fans (and the rest of the world) expect the refs to be on the up & up. Naive!
Y'know, I bet your fingers were hitting the keys, but all I can see in this post is you whining like the bitch you are.

[Shred]

Y'know, I bet your fingers were hitting the keys, but all I can see in this post is you whining like the bitch you are.

Check your private messages. I want to deliver your Internet Tough Guy award.

[Mister Sinister]

Check your private messages. I want to deliver your Internet Tough Guy award.
How the hell does giving you shit qualify as being an "Internet Tough Guy?"

[Mister Sinister]

General Concepts of an Internet Badass
Usually rather young- 12-16 or so.
Avid gamer, usually considering himself "hardcore" or a "hacker", though not always.
Someone who, to make himself feel superior, will start Internet Wars and always claim victory, even if he has been decimated.
Usually someone who kisses all female poster's asses hoping for an Internet Girlfriend
A Dumbass.
Generally a troll of some mega popular website- YTMND, Newgrounds, Gaia Online, or some other faggot center of commerce.
Claims to be a hacker, only using the basic Sub-7 tools he found a long time ago, or just using old-ass .bat files
Usually also claims to be a member of some hacking/harassment organization- GNAA, for example.
Possibly someone who fags off on IRC

You know, Shred-chan, this sounds A LOT like you.

[Shred]

General Concepts of an Internet Badass
Usually rather young- 12-16 or so.
Avid gamer, usually considering himself "hardcore" or a "hacker", though not always.
Someone who, to make himself feel superior, will start Internet Wars and always claim victory, even if he has been decimated.
Usually someone who kisses all female poster's asses hoping for an Internet Girlfriend
A Dumbass.
Generally a troll of some mega popular website- YTMND, Newgrounds, Gaia Online, or some other faggot center of commerce.
Claims to be a hacker, only using the basic Sub-7 tools he found a long time ago, or just using old-ass .bat files
Usually also claims to be a member of some hacking/harassment organization- GNAA, for example.
Possibly someone who fags off on IRC

You know, Shred-chan, this sounds A LOT like you.

I thought as much. What a pussy.

[Mister Sinister]

I'd rather be a pussy, who happens to be right, than you.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

I think the lakers were cheated. The Suns had no business in the second round.