Sizing Up the Suns

[Stump]

None of this is new information, but it's still a nice look at the Suns of next year. (First post!)

http://suns.realgm.com/articles/110/20070724/sizing_up_the_suns.._where_is_it/

The seemingly innocent trade of Kurt Thomas to Seattle shows a lot more of where the Suns are going and what they are planning in the 2007-08 season. Now that Thomas is gone, the Suns currently have, uh, let me check…zero guys over 7-0 and two guys over 6-8. What does that tell us? Read on to find out…

The Size Situation

Let’s get the facts down on paper first. As of now the Suns have Amare Stoudemire at 6-10 and Sean Marks at 6-10 as their bigs. Stoudemire will have to start every single night at center. So what about the PF and SF to fill out the front line? In my estimation the 6-8 Boris Diaw will be the starting PF and the 6-7 Shawn Marion will be the starting SF.

After that, the Suns roster is filled with a bunch of players that fall in the 6-5 to 6-7 area including Raja Bell (6-5), Grant Hill (6-8), Eric Piatkowski (6-7) and rookies Alando Tucker (6-6) and D.J. Strawberry (6-5).

Smaller players include Steve Nash (6-3), Leandro Barbosa (6-3) and Marcus Banks (6-2).

Outside of the height, the only player on the Suns to crack 250 pounds is Sean Marks.

Are the Suns Running Scared?

Clearly the Suns are one of the smallest teams not only in the West, but in the entire NBA. They are sleek, agile and can get up and down the floor faster than any team in the league. The Suns are, flat out, sexy and exciting to watch, but are they putting all their eggs in one basket?

With the Spurs, Dallas, Utah, Denver and Houston possessing bigger front lines, not only in height, but in weight, the Suns management has clearly come to the conclusion that if they are going to beat teams they are going to do it their way, by running.

Maybe the Suns decided this out of choice, out of lack of choice or because they feel the only way they can beat teams is by outrunning them. No matter why, we have to wonder will it work?

Why Running Suns Will Work

Over the past three years the Suns have run more than Forrest Gump, and during those years they have posted regular season win totals of 61 (04-05), 54 (05-06) and 62 (06-07). They clearly can beat any team put in front of them.

Compared to the aforementioned years, this Suns team is even quicker and smaller with a starting line-up of Nash, Bell, Marion, Diaw and Stoudemire and key bench players in Barbosa, Hill, Banks, Tucker and Strawberry.

No other team will be able to match up quickness and speed, except for perhaps the Warriors and Hornets, and players like Yao, Duncan, Dirk, Nene and even Boozer and Brand will have to take oxygen frequently.

With the addition of Tucker and even Strawberry, who I actually like, the Suns defense on the wings becomes even more tenacious. It will be extremely important, if not vital, for the Suns to get their long arms and quick hands in the passing lanes to force turnovers so they can execute their fast breaks.

If they do force the turnovers and get out on the break, they will have easy options with all the finishers on the team. Expect the Suns point total be at or over their 110 ppg average of last year, and expect their point differential (7.30) to increase. The teams that will be able to keep up them or can control the tempo will, and those who can’t will be blown out by 25.

With this arsenal of firepower, quickness and skill the Suns should have no fewer than 55 regular season wins and will be a contender yet again.

Why Running Suns Won’t Work

So why won’t the Suns running more (with a downsizing) work? As mentioned above it should get them 55 plus regular season wins…unless…there are injuries. Just one injury to one of the key bigs would spell doom. If Amare or Diaw go down, something they’ve both done in the past, what will the Suns do? They will get owned in the paint by the very talented bigs of the West. Big guys getting easy points in the paint dooms any hopes of the fast break.

Outside of injury, a few other factors will play big into the Suns’ success. First, Amare and Diaw are foul prone so Suns’ fans better get used to Sean Marks. Having Marks on the floor not only slows the fast break, but the talent drop off is tremendous.

Another major concern is that with running there is more fatigue. Every Suns’ fan knows that Nash, and a lot of the other guys, wore down in the playoffs last year. If they are running more throughout the season, it will take a toll on their bodies. With no back-ups for Amare or Diaw, those two will wear down even more, and Diaw isn’t in the best shape to begin with anyways and Amare is playing a lot this off-season.

Finally, the biggest concern has to just be the size differentials. The Suns are fine at the starter positions, but if one person; Marion, Stoudemire or Diaw get injured or in foul trouble the Suns become thinner than, an even pregnant, Nicole Richie. Suns’ fans know what Duncan, Boozer, Nene and others do to Amare. They get him in foul trouble quick and often. Add in other talented West big men like Brand, Yao, Oden, Garnett and Gasol, and Diaw and Amare will have their hands full all season long.

In the history of the NBA, there have been zero teams who have won an NBA championship running and gunning to the extent the Phoenix Suns will. Most championship teams are opportunistic runners, but have the capability, and prefer, to execute in a half court set. I hear all of you saying, ‘but this is a different NBA.’ But is it really? Go through the last two decades of championships and show me a run and gunner champion. Call me old school, but I think the championship formula will always be the ability to play defense and execute in the half court offense something that the Suns will have to be able to do.

However, there is a first for everything, and this season will prove that the Suns can outrun the competition or run themselves into the ground.

Discuss.

[SequSpur]

The Spurs are going to own them again.

[ducks]

suns have always used a wrong formal
tell they change no title
even with nash

[exstatic]

I can't wait to see Amare guard...check that...attempt to guard Tim Duncan for a whole series. If Tim is healthy next year, he just may flip those 2005 numbers right back in Amare's fucking face. :lol:rollin

[SequSpur]

suns are getting garnett.

[T Park]

IMO the Suns are worse.

Trading Kurt Thomas has taken alot of rebounding, toughness, veteran leadership, and defense away from that front line, that was already thin frontcourt to begin with.

[jay014]

suns are getting garnett.
that's alright Garnett already knows how it feels to be spanked by the Spurs.

[SequSpur]

IMO the Suns are worse.

Trading Kurt Thomas has taken alot of rebounding, toughness, veteran leadership, and defense away from that front line, that was already thin frontcourt to begin with.

exactly... they are up to something...

I hope Seattle trades Kurt Thomas to SA.

[barbacoataco]

I think the Suns will have to add another C/PF to their team before the season starts. If not, they have major match-up problems. How will they defend Duncan, Boozer, Yao? Amare is not a great defender, and could never stay out of foul trouble.

I thought I saw on this website that the Suns had a much better +/- with Thomas in the game in the Spurs-Suns series. He was the only player they had to defend Duncan.

What about a team like the Rockets? With Yao and Scola on the floor at the same time, and T-mac, the Suns will have a hard time defending. Can they force the Rockets to play a fat up-tempo game? If not, they're screwed.

I think the Suns know they have to add a big who can play defense.

[El_Mago]

Suns are attempting to land PJ Brown.

[O-Factor]

How come there are now suns fans posting anything here??? I swear we have Kerr on our payroll!

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

if they don't understand that small, run n gun doesn't work in the playoffs of the league they're in, i have no sympathy....

[justanotherspursfan]

Suns are attempting to land PJ Brown.
Last I heard, he was leaning toward retirement.

[CarefreeAZ]

How come there are now suns fans posting anything here??? I swear we have Kerr on our payroll!

The reason for unloading Kurt Thomas is because the owner(Sarver) is sweating the luxury tax which the Suns were going to exceed this year. Thomas only had one year left with an option. I think he was going to make 8 Million. Basically they were looking to dump salary. They should have just let him play out this year, bite the bullet and give it one more shot. So far Kerr traded away a draft pick and gotten rid of Thomas. It was not a popular move according to the fans, but it sure seems that Sarver's money is winnig out instead of a chance for a championship

[Guajalote]

suns are getting garnett.

I agree with SequSpur. The playoffs last year, among other things, showed the Suns and the league just how thin Phoenix is down low. Then, they get rid of Kurt Thomas, the one guy who does a halfway decent job on Duncan, for trade exceptions.

I'm guessing Minnesota is wanting to "Suns-up" their team in return for giving up Garnett. I think the Suns plan to keep Nash and Amare. They give up Marion and any other 2 SF's, plus the trade exceptions for Garnett. That gives them: Nash, Bell, Jones, Hill, Diaw, Amare, and Garnett. And with the dual bigs, Marks can come off the bench and spell whoever, while you've got the other big still on the floor.

This explains why they would go after Grant Hill, and it also helps the fan base wanting a championship soon for Nash.

[da_suns_fan__]

I agree with SequSpur. The playoffs last year, among other things, showed the Suns and the league just how thin Phoenix is down low. Then, they get rid of Kurt Thomas, the one guy who does a halfway decent job on Duncan, for trade exceptions.

I'm guessing Minnesota is wanting to "Suns-up" their team in return for giving up Garnett. I think the Suns plan to keep Nash and Amare. They give up Marion and any other 2 SF's, plus the trade exceptions for Garnett. That gives them: Nash, Bell, Jones, Hill, Diaw, Amare, and Garnett. And with the dual bigs, Marks can come off the bench and spell whoever, while you've got the other big still on the floor.

This explains why they would go after Grant Hill, and it also helps the fan base wanting a championship soon for Nash.

I believe you can not combine the trade exception with another players salary to acquire a player from another team with a larger salary. Im pretty sure.

The Suns aren't pursuing KG.

[Trainwreck2100]

Their coach blows

[Switchman]

With the Spurs, Dallas, Utah, Denver and Houston possessing bigger front lines, not only in height, but in weight, the Suns management has clearly come to the conclusion that if they are going to beat teams they are going to do it their way, by running.

How's that been going for you guys?

[Shred]

The obsession continues. What's the longest this board has gone without a Spur fan starting a Suns thread?

[THE SIXTH MAN]

The obsession continues. What's the longest this board has gone without a Spur fan starting a Suns thread?
Whats the longest you've stayed away from this board? Your obsession with the Spurs continues. :hat

[Shred]

Whats the longest you've stayed away from this board? Your obsession with the Spurs continues. :hat

Dance! :downspin:

[Obstructed_View]

There's no way they use that trade exception. They bought it so they could keep Marion. There might actually be some folks in that front office that believe that they had a chance against the Spurs. Since D'Antoni wasn't going to use KT enough to actually make a difference against Duncan it certainly didn't make any sense to pay him. I have a feeling the Suns are going to stand pat and pray for injuries to the Spurs.

[itzsoweezee]

the suns are so fun to hate. first the second round knockout, then atlanta gets a top three pick, robbing the suns of what would have been a lottery pick. then, knowing their two biggest deficiencies are defense and short rotation, they trade away their only big man that plays defense and they end up with an even shorter rotation than last year. I LOVE IT! i can't wait to see some more tantrums from dantoni, more excuse making from nash, and more whining from amare, sarver, and the rest of that pathetic organization.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Dance! :downspin:
:blah How fresh. When in doubt pull out your weak "dance" card. It still doesn't change the fact that your obsession with the Spurs brings you to this board every day.

[Obstructed_View]

:blah How fresh. When in doubt pull out your weak "dance" card. It still doesn't change the fact that your obsession with the Spurs brings you to this board every day.
I never quite understood what he was trying to say with that. After all, the rest of us are actually here to talk about basketball. A troll is like a stalker that doesn't have the balls to leave the house.

[Supreme_Being]

Dance! :downspin:


Hah.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6373/74061438rm022phoenixsunqq9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[UV Ray]

I never quite understood what he was trying to say with that. After all, the rest of us are actually here to talk about basketball. A troll is like a stalker that doesn't have the balls to leave the house.

What in the name of God are you talkin' about?

[Leetonidas]

Hah.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6373/74061438rm022phoenixsunqq9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
:lmao

[Mister Sinister]

Owned.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

the suns are so fun to hate. first the second round knockout, then atlanta gets a top three pick, robbing the suns of what would have been a lottery pick. then, knowing their two biggest deficiencies are defense and short rotation, they trade away their only big man that plays defense and they end up with an even shorter rotation than last year. I LOVE IT!

What he said.

You need to rebound to run the break, and that tiny lineup may have a problem there.

People should lay off Nash, he's a warrior no matter who you support.

[phyzik]

suns have always used a wrong formal
tell they change no title
even with nash

classic duck-speak

[lotr1trekkie]

I suspect Kerr has something in mind by getting rid of Thomas for nothing. Amare isn't a center and neither is Garnett. I still think something will happen between Atlanta, Minnesota and Phoenix. Atlanta is overloaded at PF. Minn will lose Granett for nothing after next season & Suns know they need another formula to get past us.

[urunobili]

i bet 100 bucks that the Rockets can handle them in the off season... i want the Mavs on this one (if they can beat the Jazz of course)...

[samikeyp]

Until they start playing games in July....who cares?

[JMarkJohns]

I think the Suns win the Pacific, but I think they are now well behind San Antonio, Dallas, Utah and, maybe, Houston. I think they could finish anywhere from third, at best, to sixth, depending on injury.

That's current. If they manage to sign PJ Brown, Brian Skinner or Melvin Ely, then perhaps better, but not much. They still have issues at backup PG, and now SF is a point of concern with Hill, a potential fatigue/injury risk, and Tucker, a mediocre shooting rookie.

[SAGambler]

People should lay off Nash, he's a warrior no matter who you support.

Pat Tillman was a warrior.

Nash is just another ballplayer.

[confined]

I think the Suns win the Pacific, but I think they are now well behind San Antonio, Dallas, Utah and, maybe, Houston. I think they could finish anywhere from third, at best, to sixth, depending on injury.

That's current. If they manage to sign PJ Brown, Brian Skinner or Melvin Ely, then perhaps better, but not much. They still have issues at backup PG, and now SF is a point of concern with Hill, a potential fatigue/injury risk, and Tucker, a mediocre shooting rookie.

Now watch Stern hand them the championship next season :bang

[JMarkJohns]

Now watch Stern hand them the championship next season :bang

With all the talk of fixing things, I doubt Stern will do anything like it.

[Strike]

Pat Tillman was a warrior.


Really? I thought he was a pro football player who gave up millions of dollars to participate in a pointless war, only to get killed by friendly fire.

[Findog]

exactly... they are up to something...

I hope Seattle trades Kurt Thomas to SA.

I don't think so. KT was a straight salary dump, and SAS, DAL, UTA and the Eastern teams will all be inquiring about his services in February.

Even if he waives his trade kicker, KG still has a cap figure of around $23 million next year. It would be much easier for him to have his cake and eat it too: Pocket $20+ million for another season of 35 wins and missing the playoffs with the wolves, and at the still in his prime age of 32 he can go to any contender next year for the MLE after opting out.

[41times]

Unfortunately the Suns have overlooked the one position that needs the most change........Head Coach.

As long as they continue to employ ThreeFirstNames they will Never win a title. period.

[JMarkJohns]

Really? I thought he was a pro football player who gave up millions of dollars to participate in a pointless war, only to get killed by friendly fire.

The belittling of sacrifice is very, very petty, no matter one's opinions on the war, the party that sent them, or the motives of those lost.

It's hardly Tillman's fault there was confusion from "friends" that led to his death. In many reports, Tillman died saving another soldier who was caught in the same fire. Hardly something to sneer at.

I've had two close friends in the wars, one that returned to his young family, one, by the name of Joseph Knott, who died in combat. I have several other friends serving who've been fortunate enough to not have to serve in the war as of yet.

Point is, you can be against the war, which I increasingly am, and not lessen the sacrifice the soldiers fighting it made. Most of them are good people, some aren't, but those who are deserve our respect, and shouldn't be mocked for any reason, least of which for political bias.

[VinnyTestesVerde]

Unfortunately the Suns have overlooked the one position that needs the most change........Head Coach.

As long as they continue to employ ThreeFirstNames they will Never win a title. period.

Mike Dan Tony

love it :lol

[justanotherspursfan]

Really? I thought he was a pro football player who gave up millions of dollars to participate in a pointless war, only to get killed by friendly fire.
Smug, ignorant cocksuckers like you are the right wing's wet dream.

It's one thing to argue that the administration's war planners don't seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground. It's another thing entirely to mock the sacrifices of the men and women in America's armed forces who don't get to set the policy but are willing to lay their lives on the line for their country anyway.

Fuck you, asswipe.

[lotr1trekkie]

For goodness sake the cheating ref wanted the Suns to win because the gamblers wanted Nash and Dunkcity to be in the finals vs DumbBron. Dunk, dunk, dunk! 120-116 every game. Gansters buying dope gear!!! Yo Bro!!!

[Catharsis]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa213/ladmo09/payoffs-1.jpg

What hurts more, Nash's groin, or the ego of Spurs fans after learning they have a tainted title? At least Nash's groin can heal.

[Phil Hellmuth]

Mike Dan Tony

love it :lol


hahah

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't think so. KT was a straight salary dump, and SAS, DAL, UTA and the Eastern teams will all be inquiring about his services in February.

Even if he waives his trade kicker, KG still has a cap figure of around $23 million next year. It would be much easier for him to have his cake and eat it too: Pocket $20+ million for another season of 35 wins and missing the playoffs with the wolves, and at the still in his prime age of 32 he can go to any contender next year for the MLE after opting out.


Thomas would indeed be a good pickup for the Spurs.

[Findog]

Thomas would indeed be a good pickup for the Spurs.

He'd be a good pickup for a lot of contenders. I wonder if the Spurs will have the inside track in February because of Presti and PJ.

[Strike]

Smug, ignorant cocksuckers like you are the right wing's wet dream.

It's another thing entirely to mock the sacrifices of the men and women in America's armed forces
Fuck you, asswipe.


I neither sneered at nor belittled Pat Tillman's death. Nearly everything I said was fact:

1. Pat Tillman was a professional football player.
2. Pat Tillman could have made millions of dollars by continuing to play
professional football, but instead enlisted in the U.S. Army and served in
Afghanistan & Iraq,
3. Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire.

Did my statement say anything negative about Tillman? Did I call him stupid? Did I say he wasted his life? Did I call him a war monger or anything of the sort?

No, I did not. The only thing I said that was opinion and not fact is that the war in Iraq is pointless. An opinion for which I will not apologize.

So, in response to you I say fuck you, assmouth.

[JMarkJohns]

You certainly belittled him as a soldier. One called him a "warrior" then you spout the "facts" making him look like a chump who turned down millions to die a pointless death.

Anyways... you're certainly entitled to your opinions, just as anyone who reveres Tillman as a "warrior" or "hero".

[Obstructed_View]

Soldier who dies in a war = warrior.
Canadian who flops on the ground holding his nuts when he's kicked in the thigh = NOT warrior.

[Strike]

You certainly belittled him as a soldier. One called him a "warrior" then you spout the "facts" making him look like a chump who turned down millions to die a pointless death.

Anyways... you're certainly entitled to your opinions, just as anyone who reveres Tillman as a "warrior" or "hero".

Who said he died pointlessly? Not me. That was you.
Who called him "chump"? Not me. That was you.

If you want to belittle Pat Tillman, go ahead. But don't claim I said anything close to the insults you spouted out.

[Strike]

Soldier who dies in a war = warrior.
Canadian who flops on the ground holding his nuts when he's kicked in the thigh = NOT warrior.


Comparison between Steve Nash and Pat Tillman = stupid.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Just to get this back on track (we WERE talking about the Phoenix Suns, right? Not Pat Tillman?)

My opinion is that the Suns ownership is doing exactly what they want to do -- create a team to maximize fan interest and revenue, rather than a team to win a championship.

The only other possible explanation is that they are simply seriously stupid. But I doubt that. You don't get that rich and successful by being stupid.

Think about it: run-and-gun is exciting and appeals to the casual ESPN-type fan. You got your "superstars", Amare, Nash, and Marion -- only one of whom has any clue about playing defense, but all of whom can run and pass and shoot and dunk like crazy. You got your up-tempo offense. You got your fiery, in-your-face head coach, who blames everyone but himself and his team for their lack of success in the playoffs. You got a lock on high-50s regular-season wins, because the other teams don't see a team like yours and thus aren't prepared. You got ESPN highlights up the wazoo. You got ESPN "analysts" stroking you like a thousand dollar "massage therapist", because they are in bed with the same program -- regular season wins, exciting fast run-and-gun style, lots of highlights equals good TV ratings as well as good fan revenues.

You think: SO THE FUCK WHAT if I don't win a championship? I'm making money like crazy. I'm staying out of luxury tax. I sell out every home game. I'm playing at least 11 or 12 playoff games every year, the revenue of which is complete gravy to me. What is not to like here? And you never know, maybe I'll get lucky and actually get to the finals one of these years.

You think further: If I go the other way, and try to build a team that contends for the championship every year, how much more money will I make? Probably not that much. What are my chances of success, financially? Probably less, since (a) I'll lose fan interest because I'll have to stress boring, low-ratings stuff like defense and teamwork and character and complete dedication and concentration on the playoffs rather than the regular season, and (b) I'll be lucky if I win a championship 5 years from now, and maybe if I'm really lucky, get a few... but probably not... and if I fail to win championships, I'll probably make less revenue than if I keep going the way I am.

I really think that's where the Suns are right now. They are simply maximizing their revenue and don't really care that much about championships. How else to explain this latest set of moves on their part?

[CubanMustGo]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa213/ladmo09/payoffs-1.jpg

What hurts more, Nash's groin, or the ego of Spurs fans after learning they have a tainted title? At least Nash's groin can heal.

Actually, the joy I get from watching whiners like you squirm greatly outweighs any loss from a supposedly "tainted" title.

And since you needed Donaghy to get past the Lakers in the first round, here's the trophy you REALLY earned:

http://sports.sdpb.org/archive/0102/boys/basketball/b/images/award8th.jpg

Note how "Coach" is even wearing the appropriate colors. Congratulations - you deserved it!!

[samikeyp]

What hurts more, Nash's groin, or the ego of Spurs fans after learning they have a tainted title? At least Nash's groin can heal.

My ego is just fine, thanks.

I am sure you meant some Spurs fans because to lump all Spurs fans together as one mindset would be ignorant and foolish and you're not a fool.

Are you?

[AZSportsFan]

Just to get this back on track (we WERE talking about the Phoenix Suns, right? Not Pat Tillman?)

My opinion is that the Suns ownership is doing exactly what they want to do -- create a team to maximize fan interest and revenue, rather than a team to win a championship.

The only other possible explanation is that they are simply seriously stupid. But I doubt that. You don't get that rich and successful by being stupid.

Think about it: run-and-gun is exciting and appeals to the casual ESPN-type fan. You got your "superstars", Amare, Nash, and Marion -- only one of whom has any clue about playing defense, but all of whom can run and pass and shoot and dunk like crazy. You got your up-tempo offense. You got your fiery, in-your-face head coach, who blames everyone but himself and his team for their lack of success in the playoffs. You got a lock on high-50s regular-season wins, because the other teams don't see a team like yours and thus aren't prepared. You got ESPN highlights up the wazoo. You got ESPN "analysts" stroking you like a thousand dollar "massage therapist", because they are in bed with the same program -- regular season wins, exciting fast run-and-gun style, lots of highlights equals good TV ratings as well as good fan revenues.

You think: SO THE FUCK WHAT if I don't win a championship? I'm making money like crazy. I'm staying out of luxury tax. I sell out every home game. I'm playing at least 11 or 12 playoff games every year, the revenue of which is complete gravy to me. What is not to like here? And you never know, maybe I'll get lucky and actually get to the finals one of these years.

You think further: If I go the other way, and try to build a team that contends for the championship every year, how much more money will I make? Probably not that much. What are my chances of success, financially? Probably less, since (a) I'll lose fan interest because I'll have to stress boring, low-ratings stuff like defense and teamwork and character and complete dedication and concentration on the playoffs rather than the regular season, and (b) I'll be lucky if I win a championship 5 years from now, and maybe if I'm really lucky, get a few... but probably not... and if I fail to win championships, I'll probably make less revenue than if I keep going the way I am.

I really think that's where the Suns are right now. They are simply maximizing their revenue and don't really care that much about championships. How else to explain this latest set of moves on their part?

I completely agree with this take. And actually, as a Suns fan, I am okay with that. Sports is entertainment - nothing more, unless you are in the industry itself and collecting a paycheck because of it (or are betting, legally or otherwise). And the Suns ARE entertaining (my opinion, but it seems to be a popular one). Would I like to see my team get a title? Of course. Will it ruin my life or enjoyment of it if they don't? No. Because it is not something that I can control. I just don't get to have a cool avatar or tell everyone about the past. :tongue

[Shred]

Really? I thought he was a pro football player who gave up millions of dollars to participate in a pointless war, only to get killed by friendly fire.

Afghanistan is a pointless war? Nice....

Stay classy, San Antonio.

[Shred]

:blah How fresh. When in doubt pull out your weak "dance" card. It still doesn't change the fact that your obsession with the Spurs brings you to this board every day.

Even if I weren't here, you all would STILL be talking about the Suns.

[mardigan]

Even if I weren't here, you all would STILL be talking about the Suns.
Dance monkey, dance

[JMarkJohns]

Who said he died pointlessly? Not me. That was you.
Who called him "chump"? Not me. That was you.

If you want to belittle Pat Tillman, go ahead. But don't claim I said anything close to the insults you spouted out.

Whether you meant to, or did outright, you most certainly had a tone about your post, both questioning the claim of Tillman being a warrior ("Really?") and implying that his decision was silly, if not stupid, but bringing in "facts" like him leaving millions on the table to die in a pointless war.

Maybe it was a simple misunderstanding, maybe it was meant as a harmless little stab at the war. Fact is, more people than just I took exception to it, so obviously there was a tone or a blatent line leading to misunderstanding.

I apologize if I read it wrong, or took exception to an innocent post questioning a few details, not questioning the character/standing of Tillman.

I've seen many, many posts bashing the war, some of which directly hate on the soldiers, including ones where Tillman is the example given.

As I said earlier, another soldier is alive today because Tillman jumped in and gave his own life to save his. It doesn't matter one bit who shot whom, only that Tillman, seeing a fellow soldier in danger, risked his own life to help another.

I'd certainly call that a warrior, and I'm sure the saved soldier calls him a hero.

[Strike]

Afghanistan is a pointless war? Nice....

Stay classy, San Antonio.

Said one one of the whinyest, bitchiest, most classless Suns fan ever to post on this board. :lmao

What was the point?

[CarefreeAZ]

Even if I weren't here, you all would STILL be talking about the Suns.

I have to agree - the thread is called "Sizing Up the Suns"

[YoMamaIsCallin]

I completely agree with this take. And actually, as a Suns fan, I am okay with that. Sports is entertainment - nothing more, unless you are in the industry itself and collecting a paycheck because of it (or are betting, legally or otherwise). And the Suns ARE entertaining (my opinion, but it seems to be a popular one). Would I like to see my team get a title? Of course. Will it ruin my life or enjoyment of it if they don't? No. Because it is not something that I can control. I just don't get to have a cool avatar or tell everyone about the past. :tongue

To each his own, I guess. I don't enjoy simply being entertained by a sporting event. I like to see how the team actually has a goal of winning a championship and observe how they go about attaining that goal. I enjoy seeing a plan unfold and be successful, despite all the challenges, obstacles, and doubters. I enjoy seeing a team built and be successful according to their own plan rather than that dictated by the needs of the business or the siren song of the media, or worse, to be simply part of a "game day experience" or "entertainment package".

[dbestpro]

Even if I weren't here, you all would STILL be talking about the Suns.
We're bored. It's kind of like talking about that little dog that keeps nipping at your ankles. The dog thinks he's big and bad but when you turn and face him he goes running whining and crying. Yeah, that's a Sun's fan.

[Obstructed_View]

Why wouldn't Suns fans want to talk about their team? Oh yeah. I guess most of them are just here to complain about the officiating and the rules. Other than the Suns fan pretending to be a Spurs fan that started this thread, that is.

[JMarkJohns]

Why wouldn't Suns fans want to talk about their team? Oh yeah. I guess most of them are just here to complain about the officiating and the rules. Other than the Suns fan pretending to be a Spurs fan that started this thread, that is.


*Ahem* (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1877096&postcount=35) ... :)

Not that you didn't know. Just showing the rest we're not all misreading "whining" and thinking it says "winning"...

[BigBeezie]

The Suns got worse this offseason. There is no other way to summarize it...

[JMarkJohns]

The Suns got worse this offseason. There is no other way to summarize it...

That's the synopsis, for sure, just some of us like to talk, so we include a few details.
:p:

[spursfan09]

Afghanistan is a pointless war? Nice....

Stay classy, San Antonio.

And what does a Sun fan know about class?

[Vash01]

I agree with Yomamaiscalling. The moves made by this new management/owner team of the Suns is geared toward putting more money in Sarver's pockets. He does not care about winning a championship. The Suns were extremely close to winning one- with a little bit of luck (and playoff officiating that was consistent with the regular season) they could have won the trophy this year. Even if they had kept exactly the same team, they would have had a fair shot at the title next year. The addition of Grant Hill was good. The decision to let Kurt Thomas- the only defensive player on the team- was bad. The decision to give up TWO first round draft picks to Seattle (along with the best defensive player) for a conditional second round pick and a TE was absolutely horrible. As a Suns fan I am apalled by what was done last week, but it is tough to give up hope. The season has not even started yet. I do agree that the Suns are extremely thin, with their short rotation and weak bench. They cannot afford to have injury to even one of their starters for any significant length of time. I see this as a HUGE gamble, with the odds stacked against the Suns. However, it does take a certain amount of luck to win the title. With all the years of bad luck, statistically the Suns are ripe for some good luck. Will it happen this year? We don't know.

[yourcheatinheart]

Soldier who dies in a war = warrior.
Canadian who flops on the ground holding his nuts when he's kicked in the thigh = NOT warrior.


no bro manu is argentinian.

[Obstructed_View]

*Ahem* (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1877096&postcount=35) ... :)

Not that you didn't know. Just showing the rest we're not all misreading "whining" and thinking it says "winning"...
Look, it's too much work to have to point the one or two of you out by name every single time I talk about Suns fans. I say "most of you" as often as I can. If you don't like that, then I suggest you start trying to influence some sense into your fellow Suns fans, because you're the only one rowing, and it's a big ass boat. :toast

[Obstructed_View]

no bro manu is argentinian.
Manu does the kicking. Nash does the flopping.

[JMarkJohns]

Look, it's too much work to have to point the one or two of you out by name every single time I talk about Suns fans. I say "most of you" as often as I can. If you don't like that, then I suggest you start trying to influence some sense into your fellow Suns fans, because you're the only one rowing, and it's a big ass boat. :toast

Done such in bunches. AZLouis is in the middle of moving, Xylus isn't posting near as often in the offseason and a few of the others aren't either.

What we have here is failure... to congratulate. Most of the fanatics posting in the name of the Suns are only here for one reason, and it isn't to be a valued member of this site. It's to rile and react to threads about their fandom.

To that point, no amount of sense will be talked into them. It's like trying to tell a lemming that by jumping off the cliff they will die. It's their nature to act the way they do.

I can stand in their way, flapping my arms to get their attention and talking all the sense in the world. They are going to just go right on around me doing their thing.

So, I "ignore" them. I've suggested such as an option in many posts.

I wasn't hatin' on you, nor trying to call attention to myself. Just wanted the rest of those reading that not all Suns fans are the bitch and moan type. Unfortunately, right now, we're in the less-vocal minority.

[Clutch20]

It seems in order to prosper in this league you must have a multifaceted game which will allow you options to dictate tempo and style at any point in the contest. Choosing to make the running game the major sell directs practically all energy into one strategy, energy that could be better utilized through other outlets such as rebounding, blocking out, grinding, physical bodying up not to mention pacing efforts for 4th quarter efficiency and execution.

[Xylus]

I think the Suns win the Pacific, but I think they are now well behind San Antonio, Dallas, Utah and, maybe, Houston. I think they could finish anywhere from third, at best, to sixth, depending on injury.

That's current. If they manage to sign PJ Brown, Brian Skinner or Melvin Ely, then perhaps better, but not much. They still have issues at backup PG, and now SF is a point of concern with Hill, a potential fatigue/injury risk, and Tucker, a mediocre shooting rookie.
I think you're overreacting to the Kurt Thomas trade. The Suns didn't use Kurt much at all last year (which was a sad, sad decision, by the way) until his presence was absolutely necessary--against the Spurs. Against any other foe, the Suns have the tools to win, even against Dallas and Utah.

The Suns will take 1st place in the conference next year, barring a long-term Nash injury. Right now, if the Suns make no move to attain a solid big man, the only team I think has an advantage over us in the playoffs is San Antonio.

[JMarkJohns]

I think you're overreacting to the Kurt Thomas trade. The Suns didn't use Kurt much at all last year (which was a sad, sad decision, by the way) until his presence was absolutely necessary--against the Spurs. Against any other foe, the Suns have the tools to win, even against Dallas and Utah.

The Suns will take 1st place in the conference next year, barring a long-term Nash injury. Right now, if the Suns make no move to attain a solid big man, the only team I think has an advantage over us in the playoffs is San Antonio.

You may be correct, except I'm not just saying the Suns have gotten that much worse, I'm saying the Jazz should be better, and with sustained health - which is never a given - could be a 58+ win team. I'm saying the Rockets now have a plethora of offensive weapons, and the size to sustain dominance on the boards, especially if Wells can come in and dominate from his position.

While true that Thomas never had a great factor in the regular season, in the playoffs he's been invaluable. See Amare's rebounding numbers in the playoffs as compared to the regular season. Alongside Thomas, Amare's average jumped nearly three rebounds per game. That's no coincidence in my book. Thomas will always body up and box-out the opposing team's best rebounder when in, so Amare has a better shot at dominating the boards. The Suns just went from an average rebounding team, to below average, while Dallas, San Antonio, Utah and Houston have all either held firm, or gotten better.

I am worried. As I said, I see them winning the Pacific with no problem. That means I give them around 52-to-58 wins. So short-term, it's not going to matter too much. But in the playoffs they are now at a huge disadvantage unless they bring in a Brian Skinner or PJ Brown. Even then I'm not even sure it gets them back to where they were last season.

Right now, I'd guess...

1. Dallas 61 wins (+3/-2 wins)
2. Utah 59 wins (+2/-4 wins)
3. San Antonio 58 wins (+3/-2 wins)
4. Phoenix 57 wins (+2/-3 wins)
5. Houston 55 wins (+1/-3 wins)
6. Denver 52 wins (+2/-2 wins)
7. Golden State 48 wins (+2/-3 wins)
8. Los Angeles L. 47 wins (+3/-2 wins)
9. Los Angeles C. 45 wins (+3/-3 wins)
10. Memphis 42 wins (+3/-2 wins)
11. New Orleans 41 wins (+5/-1 wins)
12. Minnesota 40 wins (+2/-2 wins)
13. Sacramento 37 wins (+1/-2 wins)
14. Portland 35 wins (+2/-3 wins)
15. Seattle 32 wins (+2/-3 wins)

[ducks]

jazz should be better
be intersting
fisher is gone and he was a leader

[Obstructed_View]

I think you're overreacting to the Kurt Thomas trade. The Suns didn't use Kurt much at all last year (which was a sad, sad decision, by the way) until his presence was absolutely necessary--against the Spurs. Against any other foe, the Suns have the tools to win, even against Dallas and Utah.

The Suns will take 1st place in the conference next year, barring a long-term Nash injury. Right now, if the Suns make no move to attain a solid big man, the only team I think has an advantage over us in the playoffs is San Antonio.
I tend to agree with that take. Grant Hill makes them stronger for the regular season, and maybe helps the Suns stretch a series against the Spurs to five or six games. I don't think he makes up for the loss of Thomas, who was much more effective on both ends against San Antonio than anyone on their coaching staff seems to recognize.

It might be unwise to discount Ivaroni's value to the staff, and they may flail even worse without him there in situations where they actually require coaching.

[Findog]

I think you're overreacting to the Kurt Thomas trade. The Suns didn't use Kurt much at all last year (which was a sad, sad decision, by the way) until his presence was absolutely necessary--against the Spurs. Against any other foe, the Suns have the tools to win, even against Dallas and Utah.

The Suns will take 1st place in the conference next year, barring a long-term Nash injury. Right now, if the Suns make no move to attain a solid big man, the only team I think has an advantage over us in the playoffs is San Antonio.

Right now I have the Suns fourth in the conference, behind the Spurs, Mavs and Rockettes, and a tad ahead of Utah. They can beat any of those teams in a 7-game series except for San Antonio.

[vander]

suns are getting garnett.


I'm still waiting for that to happen too, otherwise the thomas for the trade exception was pointless and stupid

[Shred]

Right now I have the Suns fourth in the conference, behind the Spurs, Mavs and Rockettes, and a tad ahead of Utah. They can beat any of those teams in a 7-game series except for San Antonio.

Has the news media been alerted?

[Obstructed_View]

I'm still waiting for that to happen too, otherwise the thomas for the trade exception was pointless and stupid
The trade exception buys them out of the luxury tax. It's the same logic that resulted in Michael Finley being a Spur.

[Shred]

I tend to agree with that take. Grant Hill makes them stronger for the regular season, and maybe helps the Suns stretch a series against the Spurs to five or six games. I don't think he makes up for the loss of Thomas, who was much more effective on both ends against San Antonio than anyone on their coaching staff seems to recognize.

It might be unwise to discount Ivaroni's value to the staff, and they may flail even worse without him there in situations where they actually require coaching.

I love how once they're gone from the team, Suns players suddenly become effective, and their coaches suddenly become difference makers. As long as they're still with the team, though? No respect from Spur fan.

[O-Factor]

Right now I have the Suns fourth in the conference, behind the Spurs, Mavs and Rockettes, and a tad ahead of Utah. They can beat any of those teams in a 7-game series except for San Antonio.

I even have Denver ahead of Phoenix

[Obstructed_View]

I love how once they're gone from the team, Suns players suddenly become effective, and their coaches suddenly become difference makers. As long as they're still with the team, though? No respect from Spur fan.
I know you don't actually know anything about basketball, but the Suns fans that do tend to agree with me. In fact, are you even a Suns fan? You don't ever come here to talk about basketball. All you seem to want to do is fight, and in a battle of wits, you are unarmed.

[JMarkJohns]

You have no idea how many times I wished Marc Iavaroni was the Suns coach... I do think this is another reason to expect a bit of a setback this year. Also, I'm not convinced Hill will have as big a role as most fans hope. Remember, D'Antoni openly discussed Rose as a rotation player when they were signing him, then never worked him into the rotation. Rose was never the injury-threat that Hill is.

I've got alot of issues and questions that need resolving or answering, and it'll take a while to figure it all out. I need to see that D'Antoni can coach, not just manage. I need to see that the Suns can defend and rebound without Thomas. I need to see that Hill and Tucker get enough PT to develop into quality rotation players. I need to see if Diaw will rebound from a poor year last year. I need to see who grabs ahold of the Suns backup PG spot, and even if someone does, I need to see that D'Antoni won't yield to the temptation to run his horse (Nash) into the ground for a few extra regular season wins.

Lots of issues... Lots of potential, but I'm not confident in D'Antoni at all, and know how much the Suns struggled with rebounding even with Thomas.

[Findog]

Has the news media been alerted?

I have an RSS feed set to alert me when the Suns sign or trade for a quality big man to guard Duncan, or to sign role players for their bench so your starters don't average 46 mpg. So far, nothing is coming in.

[Findog]

The trade exception buys them out of the luxury tax. It's the same logic that resulted in Michael Finley being a Spur.

Finley signed his current contract before the start of the current CBA, correct?

[Johnny RIngo]

S0ns are a second-tier Western Conference team. No defense, no toughness, mediocre coach.

My opinion of next year's elite teams. These are squads that can consistently play both ends of the floor:

1. Spurs(NBA champions)
2. Mavs(60 win team, Spurs main rival)
3. Rockets(great off-season)

Second-tier:

4. Jazz(nice young squad...could be first tier if their D improves)
5. Nuggets(we haven't seen how well this team can play after being together for a whole season...also if KMart comes back healthy that adds more firepower to their excellent front court)
6. S0ns ('83 Nuggets...purely a gimmick team)

[Obstructed_View]

Finley signed his current contract before the start of the current CBA, correct?
Possibly. My point is only that he was released to relieve his team luxury tax dollars. Does when he signed the contract make any difference?

[Supreme_Being]

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7289/phoenixsunsnochipforyouqs2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Does that mean we have to face the Spurs again?

[pjjrfan]

In both th 05 and 07 series with the Suns, by game 5 the Suns looked more tired than the Spurs. In 05 the Spurs not only ran with them but outran them. In 07 they wore them out. As long as Duncan is with the Spurs the Suns will have a helluva a hard time dealing with that monster in the middle. One of the keys this year was that Tony played off what the Defenses gave him, he attacked when he ahd to and it was there, he spread the ball to his shooters when they were open and he ran the half-court offense to perfection, and that more than anything really excites me for this next season. This playoffs were all about Tim and Tony. In every sereis and especially the finals Tony dictated the tempo and style of play giving his team a huge advantage. I just don't see how going smaller will help the Suns against the Spurs.

[CarefreeAZ]

S0ns are a second-tier Western Conference team. No defense, no toughness, mediocre coach.

My opinion of next year's elite teams. These are squads that can consistently play both ends of the floor:

1. Spurs(NBA champions)
2. Mavs(60 win team, Spurs main rival)
3. Rockets(great off-season)

Second-tier:

4. Jazz(nice young squad...could be first tier if their D improves)
5. Nuggets(we haven't seen how well this team can play after being together for a whole season...also if KMart comes back healthy that adds more firepower to their excellent front court)
6. S0ns ('83 Nuggets...purely a gimmick team)


I've seen this tired old opinion before - next

[Xylus]

I don't understand what would make anyone think that the Rockets, Jazz, or Nuggets are going to have a more successful regular season than the Suns.

What have the Suns lost?
-Kurt Thomas, a player who they didn't play much in the regular season, anyway.
-James Jones, 6.4 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 18.1 mpg, no huge loss, though he was a skilled defender

What have the Suns gained?
-Grant Hill
-Amare and Barbosa continue to improve

What do the Suns still have?
-Nash, Amare, Marion
-Barbosa, Diaw, Bell

That's the same core that took them to 62 wins last season, and that included a shaky start with the reintroduction of Amare.

The Suns will win 64 next season.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7289/phoenixsunsnochipforyouqs2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Does that mean we have to face the Spurs again?
:lmao

[JMarkJohns]

I don't understand what would make anyone think that the Rockets, Jazz, or Nuggets are going to have a more successful regular season than the Suns.

What have the Suns lost?
-Kurt Thomas, a player who they didn't play much in the regular season, anyway.
-James Jones, 6.4 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 18.1 mpg, no huge loss, though he was a skilled defender

What have the Suns gained?
-Grant Hill
-Amare and Barbosa continue to improve

What do the Suns still have?
-Nash, Amare, Marion
-Barbosa, Diaw, Bell

That's the same core that took them to 62 wins last season, and that included a shaky start with the reintroduction of Amare.

The Suns will win 64 next season.

Perhaps. I'm not buying into Hill hype just yet. While I know what he could do, I'm not certain D'Antoni's smart or capable enough to put him in the best position to succeed. He failed with Barbosa until his brother got a hold of him. He hasn't done anything with Banks. He underused Thomas. He never used Rose.

Also, I do think teams will start to play Phoenix more physically, since it's obvious they are overly emotional and lack a calming presense. Even Nash got upset after Horry bodychecked him, getting up, screaming and running towards Horry.

You could be right. The well-oiled offensive regular-season machine may be in great shape next season. I just think a lack of frontcourt depth, PG depth and experience within the system at SF are a few too many issues for me to buy into this upcoming Suns team as a 60-win team.

I think Utah has loads of talent and if you expect the Suns to remain because certain players are improving, then what about the Jazz with Williams, Brewer, Millsap and even Kirilenko?

[Switchman]

Denver will be in top 5 imo.

[JMarkJohns]

Maybe. Iverson, Camby and Nene have never been players to count on for a full season. Plus, they lost Blake and relegated Smith to the bench, if not out-right waived him. Not sure.

Still, I'd say Utah is the most likely to overtake Phoenix of the "next three", mainly because they enter with largely the same roster, the same coach and have tons of depth to sustain a high level of play through injury.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

There's no way that Phoenix is going to lose less than sixty games unless Nash goes down for an extended period of time. James Jones is a scrub, and Kurt Thomas had zero impact on the regular season (he was injured for a good portion of it and coach never played him much). Amare is going to be healthy the entire year, so if anything I'd expect improvement for our regular season record.

I don't think you can call Houston a top four seed just because of how injury prone McGrady and Yao are (plus, I don't know how Yao will adjust to Adelman's system, especially with all the ball hogs on that team). Utah is interesting, but they're not really a regular season team.

I think that alot of people forget that Amare and Boris both had subpar seasons (by their standards), and it looks to only get better (especially in Amare's case).

[Xylus]

Perhaps. I'm not buying into Hill hype just yet. While I know what he could do, I'm not certain D'Antoni's smart or capable enough to put him in the best position to succeed. He failed with Barbosa until his brother got a hold of him. He hasn't done anything with Banks. He underused Thomas. He never used Rose.

Also, I do think teams will start to play Phoenix more physically, since it's obvious they are overly emotional and lack a calming presense. Even Nash got upset after Horry bodychecked him, getting up, screaming and running towards Horry.

You could be right. The well-oiled offensive regular-season machine may be in great shape next season. I just think a lack of frontcourt depth, PG depth and experience within the system at SF are a few too many issues for me to buy into this upcoming Suns team as a 60-win team.

I think Utah has loads of talent and if you expect the Suns to remain because certain players are improving, then what about the Jazz with Williams, Brewer, Millsap and even Kirilenko?
It's not so much the Grant Hill hype--I think he'll have a positive effect on the team, but it's not like his presence puts us over the top. It's more the fact that we're virtually the same regular season team that we were last year, and our young guys continue to improve.

Sure, Houston and Utah will be great teams next year, but the Suns will always be one step ahead because of incredible offense. Utah scares me a little more than Houston, though, since the latter has yet to prove they can win a playoff series with their current core.

[JMarkJohns]

Is there no potential account for Nash starting to wear down? He's been ridden into the ground the past three years. His minutes have gone up, up and up...

I do worry, and I have a pretty solid track-record of calling things right. Like I said, I give the Suns a realistic 54-to-58 wins and a third or fourth place finish. Behind Dallas, San Antonio and, maybe, Utah, a team that won 50+ last year with a second-year PG and injury problems.

[Xylus]

There is potential for Nash to start wearing down, but no actual evidence that he is. He's in great shape. His game isn't predicated on athleticism, so even if he does start to slow down, I don't think we'll notice. His shot might start to suffer (again, no evidence of that occurring yet), but he's only getting smarter as a passer and a playmaker.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'll believe it when I see it. It's hard for me to predict that Nash will start to wear down a year after the best 82 games of his career.

[Shred]

There is potential for Nash to start wearing down, but no actual evidence that he is. He's in great shape. His game isn't predicated on athleticism, so even if he does start to slow down, I don't think we'll notice. His shot might start to suffer (again, no evidence of that occurring yet), but he's only getting smarter as a passer and a playmaker.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'll believe it when I see it. It's hard for me to predict that Nash will start to wear down a year after the best 82 games of his career.

I recall every thread on SpursReport.com back in 2004 being about how Nash would "break down" by the end of the season. Result? Two straight (should've been 3) MVP Awards.

[Kindergarten Cop]

There's no way that Phoenix is going to lose less than sixty games unless Nash goes down for an extended period of time.

Now that's a BOLD prediction from a Suns fan! :) You realize that you are stating that the Suns will "lose MORE than 60 games"? That would leave you with a minimum of 21 wins. WOW!!! Who is it in the lottery that you are hoping to get next season? :clap

I'm just teasing because I feel that the Spurs, Mavs, and Suns will still be top three in the NBA next season - although it wouldn't suprise me if the Jazz joined the mix because Sloan is one of the best coaches in the NBA and they have a GREAT young core of players. Houston, I'm not so worried about - at least until Yao and McGrady can prove to stay healthy and get out of the first round of the Playoffs.

[Obstructed_View]

There is potential for Nash to start wearing down, but no actual evidence that he is. He's in great shape. His game isn't predicated on athleticism, so even if he does start to slow down, I don't think we'll notice. His shot might start to suffer (again, no evidence of that occurring yet), but he's only getting smarter as a passer and a playmaker.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'll believe it when I see it. It's hard for me to predict that Nash will start to wear down a year after the best 82 games of his career.
Nash's game isn't predicated on athleticism? He's an outstanding athlete on a running offense, and he's the focal point of the entire outfit. That's a foolish statement.

Here's the situation: Nash has back problems, the team STILL has not developed a remotely capable backup for him, his coach seems determined to ride him as long as he can, his minutes are up sharply as a result, and oh by the way he has attempted to add a modicum of defense to his game in the form of standing in front of people and getting crashed into, which is a bad situation for an aging guy who is incredibly competitive and tough as saddle leather.

Maverick nation's predictions that Nash would soon start to break down may have been premature, but Nash has only played through half of his contract, and it's been brutal on a guy who isn't getting any younger and had legitimate durability concerns three years ago.

[Findog]

Possibly. My point is only that he was released to relieve his team luxury tax dollars. Does when he signed the contract make any difference?

No, not really, when the point is to avoid lux tax. People seem to think that was an irresponsible contract for the Mavs to hand out, but at the time, he was a FA when Dallas was coming off its first postseason in 11 years, he was still the team's best player, we had just gotten waxed by San Antonio and seen just how far we had to go to make it to the elite level, and Finley himself has said that he was interested in signing with the Spurs in the summer of 2001. To the extent that they bid against themselves in the process of giving him that huge contract, I don't know, but it wasn't so strange for a player of Finley's caliber to get that much money then. It was the right move to resign him and then cut him when the amnesty provision became available.

[wildbill2u]

It almost doesn't matter how many games are won/lost or where all these teams finish in the Western Conference. Take any one of them into the playoffs and there is the possiblity of the underdog beating the higher seeded team a la GS v. Mavs last year.

The West is simply loaded with good teams, great players and some entertaining styles for basketball fans to argue over. It should be another dog fight for any of them to get to the WCF championship.

[barbacoataco]

Western Conference- S.A., Dallas, and Phoenix are the top, and each has a good chance to win it all. Then you have Utah and Denver with a lot of talent, and maybe the potential to challenge the top 3 teams. Houston had the 4th best record last year, and just added Scola. That is 6 teams who are solid quality teams.

After these 6 teams you have Golden State, maybe the Hornets. Then you have Seattle and Portland that are loaded with young talent, and who knows? Maybe could develop faster than people expect.

With this much talent, is it possible that the big 3 of S.A., Mavs and Suns will have their hands full next year? And in the East, you don't really see teams getting better. Detroit and Miami seem more likely to get worse and not better. I guess Chicago and Cleveland will compete, but the difference between West-East might get even greater over the next 2-3 years.

[Clutch20]

With this much talent, is it possible that the big 3 of S.A., Mavs and Suns will have their hands full next year?

One of my points on an earlier post. The big 3, I was wondering how much more they have to be on top of things to push the rest of the squad to notch up their game.

Our big 3 have proven in the past to figure things out, where the lapses occur, where the weak points begin to develop by halftime. You want your best players on the floor at certain points in the game for pushes, protecting leads, efficient matchups, etc.

The other teams top 3 players will be hard pressed to match ours but they can do it if they're not distracted or can calm down enough to make good decisions.

[Kindergarten Cop]

One of my points on an earlier post. The big 3, I was wondering how much more they have to be on top of things to push the rest of the squad to notch up their game.

Our big 3 have proven in the past to figure things out, where the lapses occur, where the weak points begin to develop by halftime. You want your best players on the floor at certain points in the game for pushes, protecting leads, efficient matchups, etc.

The other teams top 3 players will be hard pressed to match ours but they can do it if they're not distracted or can calm down enough to make good decisions.

I took it that he/she did not necessarily mean the "big 3" as in three individual players from each team, but the "big 3" in the sense of the three teams atop the West Conference (Spurs, Mavs, Suns).

You do make good points though about our big three matching up well against any top 3 players from any other team in the league.

[Xylus]

Nash's game isn't predicated on athleticism? He's an outstanding athlete on a running offense, and he's the focal point of the entire outfit. That's a foolish statement.
I'm not saying the guy's not an athlete, but he doesn't have athleticism like Amare has athleticism. Nash doesn't jump very high or run particularly fast, but he works himself out so that he has great endurance. He excels in a fast-paced offense because he's a born passer. And he fools faster, stronger defenders by being deceptive.

I can't predict when his back injuries are going to obstruct his game, but the guy has gotten better year after year, with the best year of his career last season. He shows no signs of slowing down, so there's no guarantee that he will in the next couple of years. I don't care what the situation is... people keep saying that D'Antoni is going to wear Nash out, but I haven't seen it.

[exstatic]

I'm not saying the guy's not an athlete, but he doesn't have athleticism like Amare has athleticism. Nash doesn't jump very high or run particularly fast, but he works himself out so that he has great endurance. He excels in a fast-paced offense because he's a born passer. And he fools faster, stronger defenders by being deceptive.

I can't predict when his back injuries are going to obstruct his game, but the guy has gotten better year after year, with the best year of his career last season. He shows no signs of slowing down, so there's no guarantee that he will in the next couple of years. I don't care what the situation is... people keep saying that D'Antoni is going to wear Nash out, but I haven't seen it.
So, he'll be able to play into his fifties?

All NBA players begin to show their age. Unfortunately for PHO, small guards usually do it first. Continue to deny it, but just because you haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. He's 33 fucking years old.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

So, he'll be able to play into his fifties?

All NBA players begin to show their age. Unfortunately for PHO, small guards usually do it first. Continue to deny it, but just because you haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. He's 33 fucking years old.

Yeah, but I'm not sure how many players have a significant drop off in production after they've had the best season of their careers. Barring some sort of freak injury (which is just that: a freak occurence) there should be no considerable harm done to Nash's game. Guys like Nash (and the same applies for Duncan for that matter), who rely heavily on intangibles and not their athleticism and who have comparably less wear on their bodies tend to have a pretty decent shelf life. I expect Nash to continue at roughly the same level until he's about 35-36.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

I don't get this "Steve Nash doesn't have athleticism" take. Steve Nash is incredibly athletic. Running real fast and jumping real high are only some dimensions of athleticism. Where Nash excels is in quickness, dexterity, vision, accuracy, flexibility, and hand-eye coordination. He is like a Wayne Gretzky in hockey, any of the great soccer players, or like a John Stockton (another extremely underrated athlete) before him.

You don't get to his level in the NBA without being an amazingly gifted athlete.

I hesitate to bring this up, but I wonder if there's a racial element to this. I often see people underrate white players' athletic abilities and overrate their "basketball IQ", and the opposite with black players.

I once saw a documentary about race and the NBA. It was pretty interesting, they talked to white players about being minorities and being discriminated against and discounted because of their race. I remember they interviewed Steve Kerr, and he talked about sitting on the Spurs bench with Antonio Daniels (when they were both on the team). They had a running joke -- whenever a white player made a great play, Kerr would say, "That was a really intelligent play!" and when a black player did the same, Daniels would say, "What an athlete he is!"

[Clutch20]

I took it that he/she did not necessarily mean the "big 3" as in three individual players from each team, but the "big 3" in the sense of the three teams atop the West Conference (Spurs, Mavs, Suns).

You do make good points though about our big three matching up well against any top 3 players from any other team in the league.
Yeah, I ran past her statement and in doing so made me take it as the top 3 players of the top teams.
Thanks for the point-out Kindergarten Cop!

[Clutch20]

I hesitate to bring this up, but I wonder if there's a racial element to this.

You make a good point about racism impacting on attitudes and notions expressed by people about atheletes. Now I'm wondering just exactly where Asians, Orientals, and Hispanics fit in the black and white NBA rainbow.

[O-Factor]

I expect Nash to continue at roughly the same level until he's about 35-36.

:lmao Whatever works for you...

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