82 Games Defensive Ratings

[pad300]

82Games.com has put together a set of statistical defensive rankings for players:

http://www.82games.com/nichols1.htm

It's an interesting technique. The results for the Spurs (including positional rank which I added, based off the final DCS Rating) are:

Player Team Pos Box Def.
Rank +/-

barry,brent san SG 82 5.8
bonner,matt san PF 195 5.7
bowen,bruce san SF 197 -9.6
duncan,tim san C 30 -6.5
elson,francisco san C 134 0.3
finley,michael san SG 214 7.3
ginobili,manu san SG 16 -4.7
horry,robert san PF 11 -4
oberto,fabricio san C 288 3
parker,tony san PG 164 -1.2
udrih,beno san PG 285 5.2
vaughn,jacque san PG 273 -3.3

Player +/- Drtg Drtg DCS Positional Rank
Rank Rank Rating
barry,brent 314 102 36 60 21
bonner,matt 313 100 21 42 50
bowen,bruce 1 103 57 84 8
duncan,tim 13 94 2 100 1
elson,francisco 167 97 5 78 23
finley,michael 321 103 57 29 40
ginobili,manu 27 98 7 99 1
horry,robert 43 98 7 98 4
oberto,fabricio 268 100 21 33 46
parker,tony 109 102 36 77 9
udrih,beno 304 103 57 20 58
vaughn,jacque 64 102 36 66 17


The system says we have the best defensive C in the game, using TD as C. We also have the best defensive SG with Manu. Horry is the 4th best defensive PF in the game, Bruce is the 8th best defensive SF in the game, and Tony is 9th of the PGs. Beno is the worst defender on the team, both by overall score, and relative to his position... It also produces some interesting results, like Barry being a better defender than Finley.

It's also interesting to note, that we only have 4 players who are below average relative to the league (DCS rating < 50), Matt Bonner, Beno Udrih, Micheal Finley and Fabricio Oberto.

[spursfaninla]

oberto's d came alive in the playoffs. hopefully he is more consistent during the regular season this year.

I am surprised that Manu placed so well. He is good but not GREAT. I think this rewards players for the team defense that might happen while they are on the court, which is not really fair.

I'm wondering how we did as a team then...

[td4mvp3]

82Games.com has put together a set of statistical defensive rankings for players:

http://www.82games.com/nichols1.htm

It's an interesting technique. The results for the Spurs (including positional rank which I added, based off the final DCS Rating) are:

Player Team Pos Box Def.
Rank +/-

barry,brent san SG 82 5.8
bonner,matt san PF 195 5.7
bowen,bruce san SF 197 -9.6
duncan,tim san C 30 -6.5
elson,francisco san C 134 0.3
finley,michael san SG 214 7.3
ginobili,manu san SG 16 -4.7
horry,robert san PF 11 -4
oberto,fabricio san C 288 3
parker,tony san PG 164 -1.2
udrih,beno san PG 285 5.2
vaughn,jacque san PG 273 -3.3

Player +/- Drtg Drtg DCS Positional Rank
Rank Rank Rating
barry,brent 314 102 36 60 21
bonner,matt 313 100 21 42 50
bowen,bruce 1 103 57 84 8
duncan,tim 13 94 2 100 1
elson,francisco 167 97 5 78 23
finley,michael 321 103 57 29 40
ginobili,manu 27 98 7 99 1
horry,robert 43 98 7 98 4
oberto,fabricio 268 100 21 33 46
parker,tony 109 102 36 77 9
udrih,beno 304 103 57 20 58
vaughn,jacque 64 102 36 66 17


The system says we have the best defensive C in the game, using TD as C. We also have the best defensive SG with Manu. Horry is the 4th best defensive PF in the game, Bruce is the 8th best defensive SF in the game, and Tony is 9th of the PGs. Beno is the worst defender on the team, both by overall score, and relative to his position... It also produces some interesting results, like Barry being a better defender than Finley.

It's also interesting to note, that we only have 4 players who are below average relative to the league (DCS rating < 50), Matt Bonner, Beno Udrih, Micheal Finley and Fabricio Oberto.
did it factor in dirtiness? :spin

[bdictjames]

Maybe because Manu is an SG, he defends the team's SG. But that's not the case, since Bowen is the one defending Kobe, Allen, Carter, and A.I. who are all shooting guards.

[Darkwaters]

Maybe because Manu is an SG, he defends the team's SG. But that's not the case, since Bowen is the one defending Kobe, Allen, Carter, and A.I. who are all shooting guards.

Thats true. A lot of Manu's success in the stats is probably intended for Bowen. Manu tends to guard the guy that Bowen doesn't. So if Manu is guarding an inferior player but getting credit for guarding Kobe Bryant well then hes getting undue props. That probably also indicates why Bowen is only 9th.

[ShoogarBear]

As has been noted before, these ranking are an interesting piece of data, but they don't normalize for the quality of the opposition.

Bruce always plays against the toughest opposing scorer, so this type of rating will actually underestimate his effect.

I'm not discounting the number entirely, just saying tthat there are always secondary and tertiary effects that you have to factor.

And no way is Manu the best defensive SG in the league.

[pad300]

And no way is Manu the best defensive SG in the league.

Just for curiosity, who do you think is better? There's not a lot of great defenders at the SG spot (assuming Bruce is an SF). Raja Bell? Deshawn Stevenson?

[Solid D]

Brent Barry is listed first and that's all whottt REALLY cares about on that list....or maybe nottt.

[Supergirl]

I would argue that defensively, Manu is EASILY one of the top 3 SGs in the league.

Kobe Bryant is probably #1 (both offensively and defensively). I could easily put Manu #2...perhaps Richard Hamilton would edge him out and he'd slip to #3.

[pad300]

Brent Barry is listed first and that's all whottt REALLY cares about on that list....or maybe nottt.

No, it's that Barry is rated as better defensively than Finley, is what will make whottt cream his jeans... And then go into a rant about Finley being a choker, and how Barry is hated by Pop...

[ShoogarBear]

Just for curiosity, who do you think is better? There's not a lot of great defenders at the SG spot (assuming Bruce is an SF). Raja Bell? Deshawn Stevenson?Fair question. Bell definitely. Trenton Hassell. Kobe is overrated these days but is still a better defender, especially when he wants to be. I guess Udoka is considered a forward, but defensively he's really a 2.

Stevenson is hard to tell, because anyone who plays a little bit a defense on the Wiz looks like a star compared to the rest of the team (the Larry Hughes Effect).

Hughes when healthy is similar to Manu in that he'd rather play the passing lanes than play his man straight up.

[waly.mg]

Maybe because Manu is an SG, he defends the team's SG. But that's not the case, since Bowen is the one defending Kobe, Allen, Carter, and A.I. who are all shooting guards.

Not necessary, sometimes is Lebron James, sometimes Nowitzki

The real thing here is what underrated is the Defense

Look this numbers:


The League´s MVP DSC Rating is 64
The League´s 2005 and 2006 MVP DSC Rating is 14 ¡¡¡¡¡¡
The League DPY is 86
The multiple DPY Ben Wallace is 85

And Tim Duncan the best in that List never won the DPY

I can accept that Nash or Dirk can be the MVP, but Wallace or Camby over TD in Defense is a Joke

Probably TD scores too much for that award

[timvp]

That 82Games stat is tough to judge because it doesn't really give you much of the equation. It breaks it into three sections: Stats, Def. +/-, and Defensive Ratings.

For stats, the guy says he used steals, blocks and fouls (less fouls being better). Right there, you already have a problem. It goes back to the old myth that getting steals and/or blocks means you are a good defender. You can be a horrible defender and get a lot of steals, just like you can get a lot of blocks and be a horrible defender.

In fact, I think almost all players who get a lot of steals are sub par defenders. To average a good amount of steals, you have to play the passing lanes and take a lot of chances. Those two things mean that you are out of position defensively. Some players, like Gary Payton in his prime, would generate most of his steals in one-on-one situations, which in that case steals can be used as a plus instead of a negative.

And as for blocks, it's pretty much the same. Someone like Andrei Kirilenko blocks a lot of shots but he's an overrated defender (even according to Sloan). Camby blocks shots but I don't think he's that good of a defender. He rarely guarded Duncan in the series and in late game situations, he let Horry get wide open.

Looking at how using steals, blocks and fouls turned out, it's pretty laughable actually. Dwyane Wade and Shawn Marion were first and second. I don't think anyone would confuse Wade for being the best defender in the league.

Now if you look at the Def. +/- stat that was used as part of the equation, that one was much better. What that stat calculates is the difference in what the opponent scores when a player is on the court compared to when a player is off the court. In that stat, Bowen ranked first in the league.

Per 100 possessions, teams averaged 97 points against the Spurs with Bowen on the court. With Bowen off the court, teams averaged 107 points. That's doubly as impressive since when Bowen is off the court, that usually means the other team's best player is off the court. That shows you how vital Bowen is to the Spurs' defense. It also shows that if Bowen has lost a step, he's still one of the top two or three defenders in the league.

The bad part about using Def. +/- is that you can get some funky numbers for guys who don't play many minutes or guys who play behind horrible defenders. For example in 2005-06, Jackie Butler led the league in this stat. Playing limited minutes behind Eddy Curry (probably the worst defender in the league), made him look like David Robinson when he'd go out there and actually try defensively.

The third thing this 82Games stat used was the mystery meat that is "Defensive Rankings" invented by Dean Oliver. It doesn't say how this stat is calculated ... but it's safe to say the inventor needs to throw it away. Whatever equation it used, it calculated Bowen as the worst defender on the Spurs :lol. It also calculated Tyrus Thomas as the best defender in the NBA ... when Thomas isn't even a top three defender on his own team in real life.

Overall, it was a decent attempt but it had a huge amount of holes. Not much I can take away from it, actually.

I really think the only way you can truly judge defense is sitting down and watching games. Numbers won't and can't do that job for you.

[timvp]

As far as Manu, he's a very good team defender. He's great at coming over and helping. He knows exactly where and when the help should come. He's gotten better and better at his team defense and is probably a top ten to fifteen help defender in the league.

That said, he's a poor to below average one-on-one defender. Luckily he doesn't have to guard a lot of isolation plays because he's paired with Bowen, but when he does the outcome usually isn't good for the Spurs.

And as noted earlier, Manu doesn't guard too many shooting guards in the league, so a lot of defensive stats will be skewed in regards to the Spurs. Bowen defends anything from point guards to power forwards (but mostly shooting guards), so it's tough to keep tabs on him with stats.

Luckily, where Manu falls short as a one-on-one defender, the Spurs can often not only cover that with Bowen but also now Parker has upped his one-on-one defensive abilities to where he can be a very good one-on-one defender at times. For example against the Nuggets, Bowen would guard Carmelo, Parker would guard AI, while Manu guarded whoever else was playing a swingman position whether it be a point guard (Steve Blake) or a small forward (Linas Kleiza).

While Parker has upped his one-on-one defensive abilities, he's still a sub par to average team defender. He was a better team defender in the playoffs but during the regular season, sometimes Parker just doesn't play team defense at all.

All in all, the Spurs' defensive strengths and shortcomings fit together pretty well. Where a couple players are weak, other players can help make up for it. And when it's all clicking, the Spurs are by far the best defensive team in the league.

[Phenomanul]

Excellent breakdown timvp :tu

[justanotherspursfan]

According to this stat, Elson is a much better defender than Oberto. Discuss.

[manustarting2gd]

I don't think anyone would confuse Wade for being the best defender in the league.

Except maybe Tony.. lol... (think back to the multiple swats in a row... )

[ploto]

DCS Rating

Elson 78
Bonner 42
Oberto 33

Rasho 93 :D

[aaronstampler]

As far as Manu, he's a very good team defender. He's great at coming over and helping. He knows exactly where and when the help should come. He's gotten better and better at his team defense and is probably a top ten to fifteen help defender in the league.

That said, he's a poor to below average one-on-one defender. Luckily he doesn't have to guard a lot of isolation plays because he's paired with Bowen, but when he does the outcome usually isn't good for the Spurs.

And as noted earlier, Manu doesn't guard too many shooting guards in the league, so a lot of defensive stats will be skewed in regards to the Spurs. Bowen defends anything from point guards to power forwards (but mostly shooting guards), so it's tough to keep tabs on him with stats.

Luckily, where Manu falls short as a one-on-one defender, the Spurs can often not only cover that with Bowen but also now Parker has upped his one-on-one defensive abilities to where he can be a very good one-on-one defender at times. For example against the Nuggets, Bowen would guard Carmelo, Parker would guard AI, while Manu guarded whoever else was playing a swingman position whether it be a point guard (Steve Blake) or a small forward (Linas Kleiza).

While Parker has upped his one-on-one defensive abilities, he's still a sub par to average team defender. He was a better team defender in the playoffs but during the regular season, sometimes Parker just doesn't play team defense at all.

All in all, the Spurs' defensive strengths and shortcomings fit together pretty well. Where a couple players are weak, other players can help make up for it. And when it's all clicking, the Spurs are by far the best defensive team in the league.

You're horseshit. I keep hearing from you over and over again how Manu is such a poor one-on-one defender, but you never show any examples of it. He had a rough game 1 and game 5 vs the Nuggets, but outside of those two games, I can't remember any where his guy ever scored more than a bucket or two on him. Manu either forces his guy to take a jumper or forces him to drive to his weak hand. I don't know what else you would want from a defender. Bowen does the same shit (albeit against tougher competition usually, and you praise him for it.)

I absolutely knew when the 82games rankings came out you would bash the formula because they ranked Manu so high. You're so predictable. If you think Tony is a better one-on-one defender than Manu, you're insane.

[timvp]

You're horseshit. I keep hearing from you over and over again how Manu is such a poor one-on-one defender, but you never show any examples of it. He had a rough game 1 and game 5 vs the Nuggets, but outside of those two games, I can't remember any where his guy ever scored more than a bucket or two on him. Manu either forces his guy to take a jumper or forces him to drive to his weak hand. I don't know what else you would want from a defender. Bowen does the same shit (albeit against tougher competition usually, and you praise him for it.)

I absolutely knew when the 82games rankings came out you would bash the formula because they ranked Manu so high. You're so predictable. If you think Tony is a better one-on-one defender than Manu, you're insane.
First, put down your teddy bear you dressed up in a Manu jersey. Secondly, take your thumb out of your mouth.

Do you seriously want to compare Manu and Parker's one-on-one defense in last year's playoffs? Seriously?

Let's take a gander, shall we.

In the playoffs, Manu was matched up most with Steve Blake versus Denver, Raja Bell versus Phoenix, Andrei Kirilenko versus Utah and Sasha Pavlovic versus Cleveland.

Steve Blake
In the regular season, he averaged 6.4 points on 41.1% shooting. In the playoffs against the Spurs, he averaged 7.2 points on 45.2% shooting.

Raja Bell
In the first round, Bell averaged 7.4 points on 39.3% shooting from the field against the Lakers. In the second round against the Spurs, he averaged 12.5 points on 50% shooting (also 50% shooting on three-pointers).

Andrei Kirilenko
Against Houston in the playoffs, Kirilenko averaged 5.3 points, compared to 9.2 points against the Spurs.

Sasha Pavlovic
Against Detroit in the playoffs, Pavlovic averaged 9.2 points, compared to 9.8 points against the Spurs.

Do you not see a pattern here? Are you really that dumb?

In the playoffs, Parker was matched up most with Allen Iverson versus Denver, Leandro Barbosa versus Phoenix, Derek Fisher versus Utah and whoever started at point guard versus Cleveland.

Allen Iverson
In the regular season, he averaged 26.3 points on 44.2% shooting. In the playoffs against the Spurs, he averaged 22.8 points on 36.8% shooting.

Leandro Barbosa
In the first round, Barbosa averaged 21.2 points on 45.1% shooting from the field against the Lakers. In the second round against the Spurs, he averaged 11.3 points on 35.5% shooting (also 11.8% shooting on three-pointers).

Derek Fisher
Against the Spurs, Fisher averaged 6.2 points on 25% shooting, including 12.5% shooting on threes. Against Houston, he averaged 9.4 points on 42.6% shooting. Against Golden State, averaged 13.8 points on 53.6% shooting, including 63.6% on threes.

Point Guards
Adding together the two games Larry Hughes started and the two games Daniel Gibson started, they combined to shoot 6-for-30 from the field (20%) on 3.5 points per game in 31 minutes per game.

Look at this, take off your Manu diaper and explain to me how Manu is the better one-on-one defender. As I said, Manu >>>>>>>> Parker in terms of a team defender. But when you are looking at straight matchups, it's no contest.

Well, for everyone other than the world's biggest Manu homer.

[timvp]

And further, what part of my breakdown of how the stat was conceived did you disagree with? And why would I go out and try to disprove a stat that ranks three Spurs in the top five, including Duncan as the best?

Not all of us revolve every thought on the Spurs around Manu.

[anakha]

And further, what part of my breakdown of how the stat was conceived did you disagree with? And why would I go out and try to disprove a stat that ranks three Spurs in the top five, including Duncan as the best?

Not all of us revolve every thought on the Spurs around Manu.

Damn, you didn't have to smack him that hard... :lol

[hsxvvd]

huh?

[aaronstampler]

I think that, just like in baseball, the methodology for coming up with defensive stats in basketball are way behind the methodology for the offensive stats. Instead of shitting all over 82games' formula I think you should commend them for actually trying to come up with something. At least they're putting forth an effort.

Can a stat or formula for a stat be improved? Of course it can. But these things take time and trial and error. I think the fact that they've come up with something where so many Spurs rank high is a point in favor of the stat, not something to frown on. We were the best defensive team after all. I don't understand what prompted you to be such a harsh critic of the system in the first place. What was the impetus of it if not to bash Manu?

You say I start arguments on here and I'm antagonistic, but face it, this is an example where you could have easily left well enough alone and you chose to stick your nose in, knowing full well what the response would be. Anytime somebody finds a stat saying Manu's good at whatever, you're the one who chimes in with the "yes, but...."

I think there's a flaw in your argument for the playoffs because all you're going by is the averages of the players and not accounting at all for how/when they got their points. Manu plays 28-32 mins a night. Are you telling me Raja and Blake and Kirilenko got all their points vs him and not against Fin or Brent or whoever? Gimme a break.
Also, there's transition points to think about too. Do those count against Manu's one-on-one defense? I think not.

What I wrote was that outside of Games 1 and 5 against Denver, I think Ginobili played pretty damn good half court defense in the playoffs. You watch the tapes and see for yourself.

As for the Manu/Tony argument, I'm just going by history. Manu's been regarded as one of the best defenders at his position pretty much since he came into the league. Tony has mostly had a reputation of being a mediocre, disinterested defender.

Has Tony improved? Absolutely, no question. But I don't think his improvement has overshot Manu's level just yet. The numbers don't bear that out anyway. Remember, even if Bruce guards the best perimeter player, the guys Manu winds up guarding on most nights aren't exactly stiffs. The average NBA starting SF/SG is still a better scorer than the average NBA PG and Manu still does the job against his guy, despite often being at a height/size disadvantage.

Furthermore, I think the man defense/team defense split of yours is pretty absurd. All the Spurs play is team defense. That's all that matters. Bruce's job is to contest shots and funnel his guy just the same as it's Manu's job or Tony's job or Brent's job. The name of the game is still no open 3s and no easy lay-ups. The reason Manu gets more credit than Tony is because he's more of a defensive playmaker. He gets more steals, more blocks and draws more charges. He gets the Spurs points off his defense, not just stops. He gambles a bit, but it pays off more often than not. Don't forget, he gets more rebounds too, and a possession doesn't end until the defensive rebound.

Anyway, like I said, you'd have more credibility in this argument if you hadn't already bashed Manu's defense all year. When you make asinine comments like LeBron James and Mike Finley (MIKE FINLEY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD) are better defenders than Manu, I don't understand how anyone can take you seriously.

[timvp]

I think that, just like in baseball, the methodology for coming up with defensive stats in basketball are way behind the methodology for the offensive stats. Instead of shitting all over 82games' formula I think you should commend them for actually trying to come up with something. At least they're putting forth an effort.So they whip something up and we should all just go with it because they put in the effort? That makes no sense.

When I went into breaking down the formula, I went in with an open mind. But as I looked at what exactly the formula consisted of, I realized it has plenty of holes.

Again, what part of my analysis did you disagree with? Do you think that steals, blocks and fouls is a fair way to measure whether someone is a good defender? Do you not agree with the limitations of the Def. +/-? Do you not want to know what goes into "Defensive Rankings" that somehow made Bowen the worst defender on the team?

I don't see what you are arguing with me about other than you got mad when I didn't just blindly praise the formula and by extension Manu.


Can a stat or formula for a stat be improved? Of course it can. But these things take time and trial and error. I think the fact that they've come up with something where so many Spurs rank high is a point in favor of the stat, not something to frown on. We were the best defensive team after all. I don't understand what prompted you to be such a harsh critic of the system in the first place. What was the impetus of it if not to bash Manu?

:lol You think I seriously go around trying to bash Manu? There are more players on the team than just him. He's probably my favorite player on the team but that doesn't mean I'm not going to take a closer look into a formula just because it graded him high.

It also graded Horry high and I've been one of the biggest Horry backers on the forum while you have been one of the biggest Horry haters. If you think I spent time trying to pick fights with aaronstampler, don't you think I could have just ran with that fact?

The truth is nothing prompted me to become a harsh critic other than breaking down the formula. And again, what part of my analysis do you disagree with?


You say I start arguments on here and I'm antagonistic, but face it, this is an example where you could have easily left well enough alone and you chose to stick your nose in, knowing full well what the response would be. Anytime somebody finds a stat saying Manu's good at whatever, you're the one who chimes in with the "yes, but...."

First of all, I'm not a homer. Even if a formula showed the top five defenders in the league were all on the Spurs, I'm still going to look into it. I chose to stick my nose in because I was curious. After I saw the holes in the formula, I reported my findings.

And that's BS that I try to take shots at Manu. I've been supporting Manu before you even knew who he was. And this past season, I was the person going on a tirade because I thought Manu got hosed in the Sixth Man of the Year voting. Barbosa over him was a joke and I was one of the few Spurs fans trying to fight that fight. As a matter of fact, you were nowhere to be found.

And this stat isn't even about Manu. It lists Tim Duncan as the best player in the league. You think I'd shoot down glory for Duncan just to get at Manu?


I think there's a flaw in your argument for the playoffs because all you're going by is the averages of the players and not accounting at all for how/when they got their points. Manu plays 28-32 mins a night. Are you telling me Raja and Blake and Kirilenko got all their points vs him and not against Fin or Brent or whoever? Gimme a break.
Also, there's transition points to think about too. Do those count against Manu's one-on-one defense? I think not. The players Parker's were going up against scored when they were being guarded by other and they scored in transition. It all breaks pretty close to even.

You really think it's a coincidence that almost every player had their best series against Manu and their worst series against Parker? And again, Manu makes up for his shortcomings in one-on-one situations in the team defense aspect.


What I wrote was that outside of Games 1 and 5 against Denver, I think Ginobili played pretty damn good half court defense in the playoffs. You watch the tapes and see for yourself. He got better as the playoffs went along but he was poor against Denver and poor for the first half of the series against Phoenix.


As for the Manu/Tony argument, I'm just going by history. Manu's been regarded as one of the best defenders at his position pretty much since he came into the league. Tony has mostly had a reputation of being a mediocre, disinterested defender.:lol

So you are going with the media's view of the players? The same media that voted Marcus Camby as the best defender in the league?

And if you go back a little further, once upon a time the Spurs almost traded their rights to Ginobili because they said his defense was too horrible. He worked to get better defensive and has improved greatly since around the time the Spurs drafted him.

You can parrot what the media says. I'll stick to watching the games.


Has Tony improved? Absolutely, no question. But I don't think his improvement has overshot Manu's level just yet. The numbers don't bear that out anyway. Players play well against Manu and poorly against Parker and the numbers don't bear that out? Huh?


Remember, even if Bruce guards the best perimeter player, the guys Manu winds up guarding on most nights aren't exactly stiffs. The average NBA starting SF/SG is still a better scorer than the average NBA PG and Manu still does the job against his guy, despite often being at a height/size disadvantage. Manu usually defends whoever is the weakest offensive player at the point guard, shooting guard and small forward position. There are times that isn't the case due to a size mismatch, but that's generally the case.

And no, the player Ginobili guards on a nightly basis isn't as good as the player Parker guards on a nightly basis. Rare is the team who has two offensive weapons at both small forward and shooting guard.


Furthermore, I think the man defense/team defense split of yours is pretty absurd. All the Spurs play is team defense. That's all that matters. Bruce's job is to contest shots and funnel his guy just the same as it's Manu's job or Tony's job or Brent's job. The name of the game is still no open 3s and no easy lay-ups. The reason Manu gets more credit than Tony is because he's more of a defensive playmaker. He gets more steals, more blocks and draws more charges. He gets the Spurs points off his defense, not just stops. He gambles a bit, but it pays off more often than not. Don't forget, he gets more rebounds too, and a possession doesn't end until the defensive rebound. I think we might have found your problem if you can't tell the difference between individual and team defense in the Spurs system. Those are two things are entirely different.

For example, Nazr Mohammed was a very good individual defender. He was a horrible team defender. Danny Ferry was a horrible individual defender, but a very good team defender. If you can't recognize these differences, you might have isolated your problem in comprehension.

And yes, the media gives Manu a lot of credit for steals, blocks, charges and whatever else. That doesn't mean he's a good one-on-one defender. And again, he usually causes havoc in the TEAM defensive setting.

Then again, if you can't tell the difference, I don't know what to tell you other than to watch more basketball.


Anyway, like I said, you'd have more credibility in this argument if you hadn't already bashed Manu's defense all year. When you make asinine comments like LeBron James and Mike Finley (MIKE FINLEY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD) are better defenders than Manu, I don't understand how anyone can take you seriously.First of all, I gave credit when credit was due for Ginobili defensively. In the Finals, I thought he was playing his best defense of the season. There were other times in the playoffs when I said he was playing good defense.

But yes, there were times when he wasn't playing one-on-one defensive as well as he could have been playing. And if you don't think Pop wasn't also pointing out the same things I was pointing out, you're crazy. Pop's life is dissecting defense and pointing out poor defensive play.

And yes, for the 20,000th time, LeBron and Finley are better one-on-one defenders. LeBron scored a 93 on this DCS thing, so shouldn't you be apologizing for saying he's a bad defender? :lol

But seriously, when Finley and Ginobili are on the court at the same time, how come Finley gets the tougher assignment defensively? Do you not watch the Spurs and notice for example in the first round that there were times when Finley was on Carmelo while Ginobili was on Kleiza? Do you not notice that Parker was guarding Iverson (the shooting guard) when Ginobili was guarding Blake (the point guard)? If you think Manu is the Bruce Bowen-lite you paint him as, don't you think Pop would have caught on to this by now and put him against tougher opponents to shut them down? Who was the toughest player Pop had Manu guard in the playoffs? Raja Bell?

Really, think with some common sense. This team is coached by perhaps the best defensive coach of all-time. He recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of his defenders. There are reasons why Manu is almost always placed against the other team's weakest player. 1) Manu's not a very good one-on-one defender 2) Manu is a very good bordering on great team defender.

You can opt to see the obvious or continue to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Ginobili is the first player in sporting history without a flaw.

And speaking of credibility, anyone who has read my takes over the years knows that all I care about is the Spurs winning championships. I have takes on every aspect of this team from Tim Duncan to Sergei Karaulov.

On the other hand, you usually only come out of hiding when the topic concerns Manu Ginobili. I'm not the one with a credibility issue.

[timvp]

What's classic is aaronstampler melted down after I said Manu played poor defense in Game 1 of the Nuggets series:
Also, I'm sick and tired of reading how bad he was on defense this game. Who did he guard most of the time? Blake and Klieza or whatever his name is. He guarded Melo a little bit in the second, but that's about it. He hardly ever was on AI.

I don't know why either of you expecting him to all of a sudden guard Melo no problem. If Bowen can't guard him, I don't know what Manu is gonna do. Melo burnt every single guy on him, whether it was Bowen, Finley or Manu.

The problem was in the second half we totally let AI go off, and I don't think you can blame Manu's defense for that.

You want to rip his offense, go ahead. He was only 4-15. He shot poorly. But don't say he didn't attempt lay ups and don't say his defense was garbage, because both are false.

All of a sudden, aaronstampler points to Game 1 of the Nuggets series as a time when Manu's defense wasn't good:
You're horseshit. I keep hearing from you over and over again how Manu is such a poor one-on-one defender, but you never show any examples of it. He had a rough game 1 and game 5 vs the Nuggets

Classic.

:hat

[stéphane]

aaronstampler way of arguing looks like manu's defense...
when he's assisting other posters he "sometimes" have quite interesting takes but on one on one against Timvp it's a no fight.
Man just let it go or you'll keep losing credibility (if it's possible after this topic).

[polandprzem]

Hmm interesting

how I found time to read this first page I do not know ...

But all in all I always consdered Manu the best defender in swing position for spurs (not counting Bowen ofcourse). And it's either team defence in which Manu is great (which comes from being smart and taking chances). Plus Manu is pesky defender and likes to take a chalange. Why Manu was not cvering Carmelo for excample is that he has not the body of LeBron (as an excample).

I do not know where is argue all about. Is it about stampler hating on timvp that he is not giving that much of a credit to Manu or it's stampler hating on timvp that timvp is using 'not acurate' words on manu's defense?

btw. I hate stats when you have to compare two palyers, and more complicated stats won't give you an insight of who is really better. Never!

Senks ;)

[ShoogarBear]

If Manu is regarded as "one of the top defenders in the league", why is it he almost never guards any of the top offensive threats on the opposition?

[polandprzem]

If Manu is regarded as "one of the top defenders in the league", why is it he almost never guards any of the top offensive threats on the opposition?

Cause he almost always loosing in a competition with Bruce Bowen

:toast

[ploto]

If Manu is regarded as "one of the top defenders in the league", why is it he almost never guards any of the top offensive threats on the opposition?
The same could be said of Duncan.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Holy shit you guys get up early to argue. And this is the postseason. Damn.

[waly.mg]

If Manu is regarded as "one of the top defenders in the league", why is it he almost never guards any of the top offensive threats on the opposition?

Probably POP don´t want Manu or TD in Foul Troubles

[aaronstampler]

To LJ...

Despite how he fared in the defensive rankings, Bowen still managed to finish 8th overall at his position, and that's without the huge block/steal numbers you frown on, so the formula couldn't be that bad. I think the lasting image we have of Bruce is him pretty much dominating LeBron in the Finals, but don't forget that in the regular season he had his ups and downs defensively. The usual suspects like T-Mac/Kobe/Wade (and even Adam Morrison) had good nights against him and even in the playoffs Melo had his way with him for a while.

Bruce deserves credit for stepping up his game in the playoffs, but I don't think his regular season ranking is that far off, except obviously I agree with you that he should get bonus points for always guarding the top guy.

As for Horry, if you look back you'll see most of my criticism of him has to do with his shot. Basically, outside of Vaughn, I'd rather see any of our other 8 rotation players shoot the ball before Horry. But defensively, on most nights he's still pretty good. Not the best rebounder, but he has enough veteran savvy to handle his own end most nights. His +/- numbers reflect that Horry, despite my protests, was still an asset to the Spurs last season. But I've pretty much lost confidence in him as a scorer.

The Manu/Tony argument, I'll just put it to you this way... if they were cornerbacks on the Philadelphia Eagles, Tony would be Sheldon Brown. Solid, reliable. He'll give you the occasional 12 yard completion on the sidelines, but he won't get beat deep and he's a solid tackler. Manu is more in the Lito Shepphard mold. He'll gamble more and give up the occasional bomb, but he'll also wind up with way more picks and take a couple back to the house. Also, he plays his best in 4th quarters.

You might prefer a Brown type corner. I'm more of a Lito guy.

As for your statement that you don't go out of your way to pick on Manu, I'll refer you to this from the Buck Harvey thread...

Nice breakdown by Buck. I've rewatched the game and the ironic thing is that Donaghy was the best official on the floor. He had that one blown call on the Manu foul ... but then again, how many times has Manu begged his way into a call? It happens almost every game.

I'm telling you, you take potshots when there is no need. That's the only thing that pisses me off. Do I in my heart of hearts think Manu is the best defensive shooting guard? No. But he's probably in the top three or four, so the formula isn't that crazy.

And I find really annoying your assertion that I think Manu is like some basketball god. I've never said he's the best NBA player or the best Spur or the best shooting guard or anything crazy like that, and you repeatedly accuse me of this. I can't win with you on this board. When I defend Tim Duncan, you say I'm just bashing Tony. When I defend Manu, it's because I'm a Manu lover. I'm basically waiting for you to ever point out or acknowledge that I state on the record, all the time, that Duncan is the best player in the league and should have been both regular season and Finals MVP.

Also, I post plenty about things outside of Manu/Tony, and you ignore all those too. You just read what you want to read and your arrogance is off the charts because of all the brown-nosers your have on this board.

You've brainwashed the people into going along with you that Finley is a good defender. Good lord. Brent is better than him.

Whatever. If people on here aren't smart or rational enough to figure out you're wrong about things as much as everyone else on here, I don't know what to tell them. I'm waiting with bated breath for the Marcus Williams Era.

[perejil]

This team is coached by perhaps the best defensive coach of all-time. He recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of his defenders. There are reasons why Manu is almost always placed against the other team's weakest player. 1) Manu's not a very good one-on-one defender 2) Manu is a very good bordering on great team defender.


1) Manu is a good bordering on great team defender.

2) Manu is a good one-on-one defender... BUT Finley/Barry/Tony are not a very good team defenders.

IMHO

[ShoogarBear]

The same could be said of Duncan.You can't see the difference between Duncan's role on defense and Manu's?

[urunobili]

Thats true. A lot of Manu's success in the stats is probably intended for Bowen. Manu tends to guard the guy that Bowen doesn't. So if Manu is guarding an inferior player but getting credit for guarding Kobe Bryant well then hes getting undue props. That probably also indicates why Bowen is only 9th.

bullshit... Manu's defense is the third best in the Spurs... that's why he played ALL fourth quarters on the playoffs and FInals in his rookie season...

[SRJ]

If Manu is regarded as "one of the top defenders in the league", why is it he almost never guards any of the top offensive threats on the opposition?


The same could be said of Duncan.

Sure, it could be said of Manu or Duncan. But let's face it - guarding a top offensive threat means that there will be more opportunities to commit fouls. I'd rather sacrifice a little bit of defense to keep Tim and Manu on the floor longer. Let Tim guard some scrub for a while to keep out of foul trouble.

[chasky]

First, put down your teddy bear you dressed up in a Manu jersey. Secondly, take your thumb out of your mouth.

Do you seriously want to compare Manu and Parker's one-on-one defense in last year's playoffs? Seriously?

Let's take a gander, shall we.

In the playoffs, Manu was matched up most with Steve Blake versus Denver, Raja Bell versus Phoenix, Andrei Kirilenko versus Utah and Sasha Pavlovic versus Cleveland.

Steve Blake
In the regular season, he averaged 6.4 points on 41.1% shooting. In the playoffs against the Spurs, he averaged 7.2 points on 45.2% shooting.

Raja Bell
In the first round, Bell averaged 7.4 points on 39.3% shooting from the field against the Lakers. In the second round against the Spurs, he averaged 12.5 points on 50% shooting (also 50% shooting on three-pointers).

Andrei Kirilenko
Against Houston in the playoffs, Kirilenko averaged 5.3 points, compared to 9.2 points against the Spurs.

Sasha Pavlovic
Against Detroit in the playoffs, Pavlovic averaged 9.2 points, compared to 9.8 points against the Spurs.

Do you not see a pattern here? Are you really that dumb?

In the playoffs, Parker was matched up most with Allen Iverson versus Denver, Leandro Barbosa versus Phoenix, Derek Fisher versus Utah and whoever started at point guard versus Cleveland.

Allen Iverson
In the regular season, he averaged 26.3 points on 44.2% shooting. In the playoffs against the Spurs, he averaged 22.8 points on 36.8% shooting.

Leandro Barbosa
In the first round, Barbosa averaged 21.2 points on 45.1% shooting from the field against the Lakers. In the second round against the Spurs, he averaged 11.3 points on 35.5% shooting (also 11.8% shooting on three-pointers).

Derek Fisher
Against the Spurs, Fisher averaged 6.2 points on 25% shooting, including 12.5% shooting on threes. Against Houston, he averaged 9.4 points on 42.6% shooting. Against Golden State, averaged 13.8 points on 53.6% shooting, including 63.6% on threes.

Point Guards
Adding together the two games Larry Hughes started and the two games Daniel Gibson started, they combined to shoot 6-for-30 from the field (20%) on 3.5 points per game in 31 minutes per game.

Look at this, take off your Manu diaper and explain to me how Manu is the better one-on-one defender. As I said, Manu >>>>>>>> Parker in terms of a team defender. But when you are looking at straight matchups, it's no contest.

Well, for everyone other than the world's biggest Manu homer.

Are you kidding!!

Manu defend Barbosa (both are six-man), and Marion in ceveral times.
Manu go with lebron and Carmelo, in bowen rest.
And Parker with Deron (he kill us)

The defense of Parker it's bad, manu it's over average, but the spurs are team defense they help with the best man of the other team, and rotate to help the helper. And manu, tony, fabricio, tim, bruce, are excelent in this.

the spurs play team defense focus in the stars of the agaist, because of this the role player's score more that as usual, and this is the reason of dallas make us really dificult, they have role player that score!

Sorry for my english

cheers

Carlos

[perejil]

But seriously, when Finley and Ginobili are on the court at the same time, how come Finley gets the tougher assignment defensively? Do you not watch the Spurs and notice for example in the first round that there were times when Finley was on Carmelo while Ginobili was on Kleiza?

Because Manu can help Finley.

Finley can't help.

Team defense.

[urunobili]

Manu takes care of Bruce's Man when he is on the bench.. that means.. he is the second best perimeter defender in the Spurs...

[kskonn]

To LJ...

As for your statement that you don't go out of your way to pick on Manu, I'll refer you to this from the Buck Harvey thread...

Nice breakdown by Buck. I've rewatched the game and the ironic thing is that Donaghy was the best official on the floor. He had that one blown call on the Manu foul ... but then again, how many times has Manu begged his way into a call? It happens almost every game.

I'm telling you, you take potshots when there is no need. That's the only thing that pisses me off. .


But this is True!! I personally thought it was a compliment not a "potshot", Manu has the ability to draw fouls when fouls don't exist. You seem to take anything Timvp says about Manu rather personally. if you can't admit that Manu is a great flopper then the Homer goggles are on to tight.

[timvp]

To LJ...

Despite how he fared in the defensive rankings, Bowen still managed to finish 8th overall at his position, and that's without the huge block/steal numbers you frown on, so the formula couldn't be that bad.Do you know why it is that he's even that high? I've because he was first overall in the league in Def. +/-. In that steals, blocks and foul category, he was way down the list. In that "Defensive Ratings" category, he was last on the team.

For the third time, what part of my analysis of the formula did you disagree with?

Are you complaining just to complain or do you have an actual beef with my breakdown of the equation?


I think the lasting image we have of Bruce is him pretty much dominating LeBron in the Finals, but don't forget that in the regular season he had his ups and downs defensively. The usual suspects like T-Mac/Kobe/Wade (and even Adam Morrison) had good nights against him and even in the playoffs Melo had his way with him for a while.

Bruce deserves credit for stepping up his game in the playoffs, but I don't think his regular season ranking is that far off, except obviously I agree with you that he should get bonus points for always guarding the top guy. :lol

This is gold. You think Bowen's rating isn't that far off while you also are defending Ginobili's rating. So not only do you think Ginobili is a better defender than Manu, you obviously think Bowen is a highly overrated defender. At least the truth is starting to come out.

And yes, some scorers had good games against Bowen. When you have the job of stopping the other team's best scorer 82 games a year, you are going to have some slip ups. He didn't have anymore slip ups this year than any other year. And if you look at his Def. +/-, you can argue he's coming off the best regular season of his career.

On top of that, a couple games he gets blamed for were actually *gasp* Manu's fault defensively. When TMac went crazy against the Spurs, he got rolling against Manu. Another time the same thing happened when Pop put Manu on Kobe.

But yeah, at least you are starting to reveal some of your own opinions. Bowen is overrated and Manu is a top five defender in the league. Anything else?


As for Horry, if you look back you'll see most of my criticism of him has to do with his shot. Basically, outside of Vaughn, I'd rather see any of our other 8 rotation players shoot the ball before Horry. But defensively, on most nights he's still pretty good. Not the best rebounder, but he has enough veteran savvy to handle his own end most nights. His +/- numbers reflect that Horry, despite my protests, was still an asset to the Spurs last season. But I've pretty much lost confidence in him as a scorer. So all your whining about Horry was wrong? Okay, got it.


The Manu/Tony argument, I'll just put it to you this way... if they were cornerbacks on the Philadelphia Eagles, Tony would be Sheldon Brown. Solid, reliable. He'll give you the occasional 12 yard completion on the sidelines, but he won't get beat deep and he's a solid tackler. Manu is more in the Lito Shepphard mold. He'll gamble more and give up the occasional bomb, but he'll also wind up with way more picks and take a couple back to the house. Also, he plays his best in 4th quarters.

You might prefer a Brown type corner. I'm more of a Lito guy. First of all, this isn't even a "Manu/Tony" argument. Second of all, that little comparison doesn't work because it doesn't account for Bowen.

If you want to go with a football comparison, Bowen is the shutdown cornerback, Parker is a smallish shutdown cornerback who can't cover the big wide receivers or come up to help stop the run, while Manu is the free safety who you don't want matched up one-on-one with a star wide receiver but is capable of making big plays all over the field.


As for your statement that you don't go out of your way to pick on Manu, I'll refer you to this from the Buck Harvey thread...

Nice breakdown by Buck. I've rewatched the game and the ironic thing is that Donaghy was the best official on the floor. He had that one blown call on the Manu foul ... but then again, how many times has Manu begged his way into a call? It happens almost every game.:huh

Uh, that's called a compliment. Manu is a great flopper and great at baiting refs into calling fouls in his favor. How the hell could that be a Manu "bash"? I wish all the Spurs were as good at getting calls to go their way as Manu is. Manu is probably a top three player in the league at that.

And do you even know the play I'm talking about? If that's not begging for a call, I don't know what is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U -- 1:25 mark


I'm telling you, you take potshots when there is no need. That's the only thing that pisses me off. Do I in my heart of hearts think Manu is the best defensive shooting guard? No. But he's probably in the top three or four, so the formula isn't that crazy. What potshots? So far you have this thread where if I was taking a potshot at anyone, it'd be Tim Duncan for debunking the formula that ranked him first in the league. And you have a post where I was giving Manu props for the ability to bait refs.

And I don't see how you can put Manu as a top three or four overall defender at shooting guard when he rarely guards anyone of consequence. Top three or four at his position as far as a team defender? Sure, I can buy that. Top three or four at his position overall or just as a one-on-one defender? No way. Even if in some fairy land he was the shutdown defender that you claim him to be, he rarely guards anyone that good so you can't rank him that high for guarding the Linas Kleizas of the world.

After Bowen retires maybe then you won't see Bowen as some overrated scrub and Manu as the real defensive ace of the team.


And I find really annoying your assertion that I think Manu is like some basketball god. I've never said he's the best NBA player or the best Spur or the best shooting guard or anything crazy like that, and you repeatedly accuse me of this. I can't win with you on this board. When I defend Tim Duncan, you say I'm just bashing Tony. When I defend Manu, it's because I'm a Manu lover. I'm basically waiting for you to ever point out or acknowledge that I state on the record, all the time, that Duncan is the best player in the league and should have been both regular season and Finals MVP. :lmao

Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said shouldn't have gotten the 2005 Finals MVP because *gasp* Manu Ginobili should have gotten it? Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said wasn't even as good as Robert Horry in the 2005 Finals?

And yes when you post in a thread, it's usually: 1) to run to Manu's defense 2) to run in to bash Parker, Horry or Bowen 3) to run in and bash anyone who might pose a threat to Manu

Point me to some of your posts that prove me wrong. I'd love to read some of the posts of this well-rounded aaronstampler you talk about.


Also, I post plenty about things outside of Manu/Tony, and you ignore all those too. You just read what you want to read and your arrogance is off the charts because of all the brown-nosers your have on this board. Where are the supposed "brown-nosers" in this thread? Call them out.

The only arrogance I have is because I know I'm right and I know you're mostly wrong in your takes in this thread.


You've brainwashed the people into going along with you that Finley is a good defender. Good lord. Brent is better than him. Link to where I said he was a good defender? For the 20,001 time, I said that Finley is a better one-on-one defender. If you have an issue with that, take it up with Pop because he obviously agrees with me. Overall, Manu is the better defender ... but not in one-on-one situations.


Whatever. If people on here aren't smart or rational enough to figure out you're wrong about things as much as everyone else on here, I don't know what to tell them. I'm waiting with bated breath for the Marcus Williams Era.Link to where I'm wrong?

:smokin

You just get in your little hissy fits when someone points out a potential flaw in Manu's game. And what's funny is I readily admit that Manu is a good overall defender. But you get all cry baby when I point out that he's not good in one-on-one situations. And he's not.

But yeah, keep your Supermanu cape handy because I'm sure you'll be rushing to his defense before long.

Oh and if you followed anything outside of Manu, you'd know that I've been Marcus Williams' biggest critic since summer league began. And I was never that excited with the pick to begin with. You just saw me say something about Williams when you came to the defense of Manu in yet another thread and didn't even understand what I saying.

[timvp]

Are you kidding!!

Manu defend Barbosa (both are six-man), and Marion in ceveral times.
Manu go with lebron and Carmelo, in bowen rest.
And Parker with Deron (he kill us)

The defense of Parker it's bad, manu it's over average, but the spurs are team defense they help with the best man of the other team, and rotate to help the helper. And manu, tony, fabricio, tim, bruce, are excelent in this.

the spurs play team defense focus in the stars of the agaist, because of this the role player's score more that as usual, and this is the reason of dallas make us really dificult, they have role player that score!

Sorry for my english

cheers

CarlosManu rarely guarded Barbosa, Marion or Carmelo. And when he did, the result was rarely positive.

Parker rarely guarded Deron Williams. Bowen guarded him almost the whole series. When Parker did have the chance to guard him, he usually defended him pretty well.


Manu takes care of Bruce's Man when he is on the bench.. that means.. he is the second best perimeter defender in the Spurs...Sometimes true, but usually not.

Against Denver, Manu wasn't the backup defender for Carmelo or AI. Against Phoenix, Manu wasn't the backup defender against Nash. Against Utah, Manu wasn't the backup defender against DWilliams. He did spend some time on LeBron, which is why I gave him props then and give him props now for stepping up his defense in the Finals.

[barbacoataco]

Very good thread. Some of these posts make me question my own opinions. I have always considered Manu a better defender than parker, but timvp make some good points. Ginobili does make big defensive plays at crucial moments. (and mistakes) Overall, I thought the ratings were better than other statistical attempts to rated defense. But the only way to really judge defense is to watch the games.

Another aspect of Parker's "defense" is that whoever is guarding Parker expends a lot of energy running up and down the court with him. This has a "defensive" value of a kind. In the Finals Lebron had to chase him around the court, and I think it took it's toll. Being the fastest player on the court has advantages.

[polandprzem]

This is gold. You think Bowen's rating isn't that far off while you also are defending Ginobili's rating. So not only do you think Ginobili is a better defender than Manu, you obviously think Bowen is a highly overrated defender. At least the truth is starting to come out.

:lol

[Testing]

Ginobili's great defense cost you guys 2 championships.........See .4 shot against Derrick Fisher in 2004 and his "defensive block" which led to an And 1 and win on Dirk in 2006. :lol Great defender he is.

[aaronstampler]

Do you know why it is that he's even that high? I've because he was first overall in the league in Def. +/-. In that steals, blocks and foul category, he was way down the list. In that "Defensive Ratings" category, he was last on the team.

For the third time, what part of my analysis of the formula did you disagree with?

Are you complaining just to complain or do you have an actual beef with my breakdown of the equation?

:lol

This is gold. You think Bowen's rating isn't that far off while you also are defending Ginobili's rating. So not only do you think Ginobili is a better defender than Manu, you obviously think Bowen is a highly overrated defender. At least the truth is starting to come out.

And yes, some scorers had good games against Bowen. When you have the job of stopping the other team's best scorer 82 games a year, you are going to have some slip ups. He didn't have anymore slip ups this year than any other year. And if you look at his Def. +/-, you can argue he's coming off the best regular season of his career.

On top of that, a couple games he gets blamed for were actually *gasp* Manu's fault defensively. When TMac went crazy against the Spurs, he got rolling against Manu. Another time the same thing happened when Pop put Manu on Kobe.

But yeah, at least you are starting to reveal some of your own opinions. Bowen is overrated and Manu is a top five defender in the league. Anything else?

So all your whining about Horry was wrong? Okay, got it.

First of all, this isn't even a "Manu/Tony" argument. Second of all, that little comparison doesn't work because it doesn't account for Bowen.

If you want to go with a football comparison, Bowen is the shutdown cornerback, Parker is a smallish shutdown cornerback who can't cover the big wide receivers or come up to help stop the run, while Manu is the free safety who you don't want matched up one-on-one with a star wide receiver but is capable of making big plays all over the field.

:huh

Uh, that's called a compliment. Manu is a great flopper and great at baiting refs into calling fouls in his favor. How the hell could that be a Manu "bash"? I wish all the Spurs were as good at getting calls to go their way as Manu is. Manu is probably a top three player in the league at that.

And do you even know the play I'm talking about? If that's not begging for a call, I don't know what is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U -- 1:25 mark

What potshots? So far you have this thread where if I was taking a potshot at anyone, it'd be Tim Duncan for debunking the formula that ranked him first in the league. And you have a post where I was giving Manu props for the ability to bait refs.

And I don't see how you can put Manu as a top three or four overall defender at shooting guard when he rarely guards anyone of consequence. Top three or four at his position as far as a team defender? Sure, I can buy that. Top three or four at his position overall or just as a one-on-one defender? No way. Even if in some fairy land he was the shutdown defender that you claim him to be, he rarely guards anyone that good so you can't rank him that high for guarding the Linas Kleizas of the world.

After Bowen retires maybe then you won't see Bowen as some overrated scrub and Manu as the real defensive ace of the team.

:lmao

Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said shouldn't have gotten the 2005 Finals MVP because *gasp* Manu Ginobili should have gotten it? Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said wasn't even as good as Robert Horry in the 2005 Finals?

And yes when you post in a thread, it's usually: 1) to run to Manu's defense 2) to run in to bash Parker, Horry or Bowen 3) to run in and bash anyone who might pose a threat to Manu

Point me to some of your posts that prove me wrong. I'd love to read some of the posts of this well-rounded aaronstampler you talk about.

Where are the supposed "brown-nosers" in this thread? Call them out.

The only arrogance I have is because I know I'm right and I know you're mostly wrong in your takes in this thread.

Link to where I said he was a good defender? For the 20,001 time, I said that Finley is a better one-on-one defender. If you have an issue with that, take it up with Pop because he obviously agrees with me. Overall, Manu is the better defender ... but not in one-on-one situations.

Link to where I'm wrong?

:smokin

You just get in your little hissy fits when someone points out a potential flaw in Manu's game. And what's funny is I readily admit that Manu is a good overall defender. But you get all cry baby when I point out that he's not good in one-on-one situations. And he's not.

But yeah, keep your Supermanu cape handy because I'm sure you'll be rushing to his defense before long.

Oh and if you followed anything outside of Manu, you'd know that I've been Marcus Williams' biggest critic since summer league began. And I was never that excited with the pick to begin with. You just saw me say something about Williams when you came to the defense of Manu in yet another thread and didn't even understand what I saying.

1. For the third time, if a formula comes up with Duncan, Horry, Bruce, Manu, and Tony ranked as high defensively for their positions as this one did, then it stands to reason that it's not that bad of a formula. Either invent a better one where Tony and Bruce finish 1st each at SF and PG and Manu 20th at SG, or shut the fuck up about it already. It's just like your criticisms of +/-. You say it doesn't mean a whole lot, but look who finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd: Duncan, Dirk, and Nash, only the three MVP candidates in the league.

2. Oh my god. When have I ever said that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce? You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm aware that Bruce's contributions to the team are much higher than his stats would suggest. All I said was that he had his small defensive slumps in the regular season so I can see where the 8th place ranking was coming from. I'd still rather have him guarding a guy if my life depended on it than anyone else in the league.

I think where you are confused is that you think I agree with all the rankings in the formula. I don't. Bruce is too low and Manu is too high. I've already said this. I'm just saying I don't disagree with them as much as you do, primarily, because as I've written before, as a whole they're pretty much in the ballpark and I appreciate that at least someone is trying. That's the difference between you and me. I appreciate the effort of this and you just slag it.

3. It's getting annoying, having to repeatedly read your argument that Manu isn't a good one-on-one defender because Bruce takes the top guy. Bruce takes the top guy because he is the best defender in the league. Even if Manu was the second best defender in the NBA, (which he isn't) nothing would change because Bruce would still take the top guy. I mean, this logic is so twisted it's insane. It's like saying that if Kevin Garnett were on the team he'd only be the 2nd best power forward on the Spurs. While technically the statement is true, it has no context at all. Manu would be the best perimeter defender on most of the teams in the NBA. Just not the one he plays on. Also, as numerous posters have pointed out to you, his work on the other end is pretty damn valuable, so Pop and co. in the suits probably don't want to tire or foul him out on defense. For the same reason, Tim rarely guards the opponents best big man. Bruce doesn't need much energy to stand in the corners every offensive possession.

4. Wait, the best scorer in the NBA got hot on Manu? Holy shit, Manu must suck then. Once again, no context. I guess you forget that the only reason we even beat the Lakers once the whole season is because Manu blocked Kobe's jumper at the end of regulation in Los Angeles. Show me another Spur who can make that play.

5. Btw, your repeated insistence on splitting up one-on-one defense and team defense is getting tiresome. One-on-one defense doesn't mean anything. If you think in an empty gym that Tony can ever stop Nash or Bruce can stop Carmelo, you're crazy. David Robinson is the authority on this, and he said in an interview in SI long ago that for a good player, it's not really hard to score one-on-one against anybody. If you're a top 30, top 40 player, you have too many moves, too many weapons, the advantage of knowing what you're gonna do where the defender can only guess or react. To go back to the football analogy, even the best NFL shutdown corner is only expected to stay with his guy for 3 or 4 seconds. After that, anybody, even Champ Bailey, will get beat. So really, it doesn't matter if you're talking about Bruce or Tony or Manu or whoever. They all have the same job on defense, force their guy to take contested jumpers, funnel them toward their weak hand, help out a beat en teammate, and communicate with Tim (who makes the whole thing work).

6. I'm not wrong about Horry. I don't want him to shoot the ball, ever. And I'm not too thrilled about having a guy on the team who clearly doesn't want to be on the court for most of the regular season games. He's like the posterchild for regular season apathy. His comment that he'd rather be a superstar who had Barkley's career rather than the role player with all the rings left me very cold. If that's what he really wanted for himself, than perhaps he should have stuck his nose in there and tried to score and rebound like a 6'11 guy instead of spending his whole career camped behind the three point line like a big wuss.

7. A great flopper who begs for calls and a poor one-on-one defender. Yup, you're clearly a charter member of the Manu Ginobili fan club. As the saying goes, "With friends like you..." Maybe it'd be better if you didn't ever write about him.

8. Saying Tim Duncan is the best player in the league but that he didn't deserve the 2005 Finals MVP are not contradictory statements. He was playing with two bad ankles that year so he clearly wasn't at his best. If you couldn't tell the difference between '05 postseason Duncan and '07 postseason Duncan, I don't know what to tell you. It boggles my mind that he won the award vs the Pistons but not Cleveland when he was clearly better in this series than that one. He got the MVP in '05 because he had some decent scoring games in blowout losses (with awful - for him - shooting percentages though) and because Manu wasn't engaged to some ABC star.

Tim is one of the top ten players to ever play, but to suggest, rationally, that he played better in the '05 Finals than Ginobili is absurd. Manu was the best player on the floor in 3 of the 4 wins, and Horry was in the other. To me, if you want to give Duncan the award in '05, fine, you give it to him because of defense/rebounding/leadership/team's best player. Well how did any of those things change in '07? Either Manu should have won it in '05 or Tim should have in '07. You even agree with me on the latter part of that, so I don't understand why we're arguing. All I'm asking for is some consistency from the voters.

9. I'm perfectly aware you jumped off the Marcus Williams bandwagon very quickly. But I'm also aware that you were the one who started the Marcus Williams bandwagon. Great athlete, good scorer, yadda, yadda, yadda. We should have drafted a backup point guard, but this FO clearly is not interested in playing anyone under 30 except for Tony.

10. I'm done with this thread. You're an arrogant bastard and everyone knows it. Furthermore, you're a phony. You can fool everyone on here, with your insults and macho posturing, but I remember our IM chat, very, very clearly. And no matter how much you insult me or patronize me on here, we both know who kissed who's ass that day.

[timvp]

10. I'm done with this thread. You're an arrogant bastard and everyone knows it. Furthermore, you're a phony. You can fool everyone on here, with your insults and macho posturing, but I remember our IM chat, very, very clearly. And no matter how much you insult me or patronize me on here, we both know who kissed who's ass that day.I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post right now. But don't worry, I will later.

As far as the IM chat, who backed down like a ho after I called them out? That'd be you. I confronted you about something you wrote that was way out of line. You ended up deleting it. And I kissed your ass?

If you really want to go there, let's go there. People can see what kind of low life coward you really are.

[Rick Von Braun]

1. For the third time, if a formula comes up with Duncan, Horry, Bruce, Manu, and Tony ranked as high defensively for their positions as this one did, then it stands to reason that it's not that bad of a formula. Either invent a better one where Tony and Bruce finish 1st each at SF and PG and Manu 20th at SG, or shut the fuck up about it already. It's just like your criticisms of +/-. You say it doesn't mean a whole lot, but look who finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd: Duncan, Dirk, and Nash, only the three MVP candidates in the league.

2. Oh my god. When have I ever said that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce? You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm aware that Bruce's contributions to the team are much higher than his stats would suggest. All I said was that he had his small defensive slumps in the regular season so I can see where the 8th place ranking was coming from. I'd still rather have him guarding a guy if my life depended on it than anyone else in the league.

I think where you are confused is that you think I agree with all the rankings in the formula. I don't. Bruce is too low and Manu is too high. I've already said this. I'm just saying I don't disagree with them as much as you do, primarily, because as I've written before, as a whole they're pretty much in the ballpark and I appreciate that at least someone is trying. That's the difference between you and me. I appreciate the effort of this and you just slag it.

3. It's getting annoying, having to repeatedly read your argument that Manu isn't a good one-on-one defender because Bruce takes the top guy. Bruce takes the top guy because he is the best defender in the league. Even if Manu was the second best defender in the NBA, (which he isn't) nothing would change because Bruce would still take the top guy. I mean, this logic is so twisted it's insane. It's like saying that if Kevin Garnett were on the team he'd only be the 2nd best power forward on the Spurs. While technically the statement is true, it has no context at all. Manu would be the best perimeter defender on most of the teams in the NBA. Just not the one he plays on. Also, as numerous posters have pointed out to you, his work on the other end is pretty damn valuable, so Pop and co. in the suits probably don't want to tire or foul him out on defense. For the same reason, Tim rarely guards the opponents best big man. Bruce doesn't need much energy to stand in the corners every offensive possession.

4. Wait, the best scorer in the NBA got hot on Manu? Holy shit, Manu must suck then. Once again, no context. I guess you forget that the only reason we even beat the Lakers once the whole season is because Manu blocked Kobe's jumper at the end of regulation in Los Angeles. Show me another Spur who can make that play.

5. Btw, your repeated insistence on splitting up one-on-one defense and team defense is getting tiresome. One-on-one defense doesn't mean anything. If you think in an empty gym that Tony can ever stop Nash or Bruce can stop Carmelo, you're crazy. David Robinson is the authority on this, and he said in an interview in SI long ago that for a good player, it's not really hard to score one-on-one against anybody. If you're a top 30, top 40 player, you have too many moves, too many weapons, the advantage of knowing what you're gonna do where the defender can only guess or react. To go back to the football analogy, even the best NFL shutdown corner is only expected to stay with his guy for 3 or 4 seconds. After that, anybody, even Champ Bailey, will get beat. So really, it doesn't matter if you're talking about Bruce or Tony or Manu or whoever. They all have the same job on defense, force their guy to take contested jumpers, funnel them toward their weak hand, help out a beat en teammate, and communicate with Tim (who makes the whole thing work).

6. I'm not wrong about Horry. I don't want him to shoot the ball, ever. And I'm not too thrilled about having a guy on the team who clearly doesn't want to be on the court for most of the regular season games. He's like the posterchild for regular season apathy. His comment that he'd rather be a superstar who had Barkley's career rather than the role player with all the rings left me very cold. If that's what he really wanted for himself, than perhaps he should have stuck his nose in there and tried to score and rebound like a 6'11 guy instead of spending his whole career camped behind the three point line like a big wuss.

7. A great flopper who begs for calls and a poor one-on-one defender. Yup, you're clearly a charter member of the Manu Ginobili fan club. As the saying goes, "With friends like you..." Maybe it'd be better if you didn't ever write about him.

8. Saying Tim Duncan is the best player in the league but that he didn't deserve the 2005 Finals MVP are not contradictory statements. He was playing with two bad ankles that year so he clearly wasn't at his best. If you couldn't tell the difference between '05 postseason Duncan and '07 postseason Duncan, I don't know what to tell you. It boggles my mind that he won the award vs the Pistons but not Cleveland when he was clearly better in this series than that one. He got the MVP in '05 because he had some decent scoring games in blowout losses (with awful - for him - shooting percentages though) and because Manu wasn't engaged to some ABC star.

Tim is one of the top ten players to ever play, but to suggest, rationally, that he played better in the '05 Finals than Ginobili is absurd. Manu was the best player on the floor in 3 of the 4 wins, and Horry was in the other. To me, if you want to give Duncan the award in '05, fine, you give it to him because of defense/rebounding/leadership/team's best player. Well how did any of those things change in '07? Either Manu should have won it in '05 or Tim should have in '07. You even agree with me on the latter part of that, so I don't understand why we're arguing. All I'm asking for is some consistency from the voters.

9. I'm perfectly aware you jumped off the Marcus Williams bandwagon very quickly. But I'm also aware that you were the one who started the Marcus Williams bandwagon. Great athlete, good scorer, yadda, yadda, yadda. We should have drafted a backup point guard, but this FO clearly is not interested in playing anyone under 30 except for Tony.

10. I'm done with this thread. You're an arrogant bastard and everyone knows it. Furthermore, you're a phony. You can fool everyone on here, with your insults and macho posturing, but I remember our IM chat, very, very clearly. And no matter how much you insult me or patronize me on here, we both know who kissed who's ass that day.

The best post I've read in while in this site.

[sabar]

timvp is a damn good debater, he could run for public office.

[diego]

my 2 cents:

manu and bowen play opposite defensive styles. manu plays the risky anticpication game, and he does it extremely well (see how many post entry passes manu deflects every game- i rarely see other guards bother to defend this pass). of course, charges, steals, blocks, rebounds are easier to keep track of in stats so manu is ranked high.

bruce on the other hand hardly gambles because he can stay with anyone and herd them away from comfort zones. he is rarely boxing out because hes covering the shooter, so he doesnt get many rebounds either. his style is harder, and its effect is much bigger even though it doesnt come out in stats.

no doubt manu is getting credit for bruce's work in the ranking, also for duncan's work. no doubt tony and horry are getting credit for bruce and duncan, and the coaching staff for that matter. in the end defense is about a system and we have a good one.

as far as tony, his style is more similar to bruce, but he isnt as good at it (mostly because hes smaller than most players in the league) and he isnt as tenacious on the defensive end as bruce or manu.

so i can see why timvp would prefer tony since hes in the bruce mold, but i think manu pulls off the risky style well enough to be more valuable than tony on the defensive end.

[SRJ]

5. Btw, your repeated insistence on splitting up one-on-one defense and team defense is getting tiresome. One-on-one defense doesn't mean anything. If you think in an empty gym that Tony can ever stop Nash or Bruce can stop Carmelo, you're crazy. David Robinson is the authority on this, and he said in an interview in SI long ago that for a good player, it's not really hard to score one-on-one against anybody. If you're a top 30, top 40 player, you have too many moves, too many weapons, the advantage of knowing what you're gonna do where the defender can only guess or react. To go back to the football analogy, even the best NFL shutdown corner is only expected to stay with his guy for 3 or 4 seconds. After that, anybody, even Champ Bailey, will get beat. So really, it doesn't matter if you're talking about Bruce or Tony or Manu or whoever. They all have the same job on defense, force their guy to take contested jumpers, funnel them toward their weak hand, help out a beat en teammate, and communicate with Tim (who makes the whole thing work).

I've always wanted to make this same point, but I never could do it as succinctly as you have done here, aaronstampler. Well done.

I won't say that one-on-one defense means nothing, but it's overrated.

[anakha]

I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post right now. But don't worry, I will later.

As far as the IM chat, who backed down like a ho after I called them out? That'd be you. I confronted you about something you wrote that was way out of line. You ended up deleting it. And I kissed your ass?

If you really want to go there, let's go there. People can see what kind of low life coward you really are.

A catfight picture on this thread would just about make my day. :lol

[timvp]

1. For the third time, if a formula comes up with Duncan, Horry, Bruce, Manu, and Tony ranked as high defensively for their positions as this one did, then it stands to reason that it's not that bad of a formula. Either invent a better one where Tony and Bruce finish 1st each at SF and PG and Manu 20th at SG, or shut the fuck up about it already. It's just like your criticisms of +/-. You say it doesn't mean a whole lot, but look who finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd: Duncan, Dirk, and Nash, only the three MVP candidates in the league. Your Manu homerness is off the charts. A formula ranks him high so the formula is good? That's what you are basically telling me. You don't care that you have no idea what 1/3rd of the formula even consists of, but it's alright with you regardless.

And where have I criticized +/-? I'm the biggest and one of the original proponents of +/- on the board.


2. Oh my god. When have I ever said that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce? You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm aware that Bruce's contributions to the team are much higher than his stats would suggest. All I said was that he had his small defensive slumps in the regular season so I can see where the 8th place ranking was coming from. I'd still rather have him guarding a guy if my life depended on it than anyone else in the league. Do I have to piece together all your thoughts? You say you can "understand" Bowen's placement, while Ginobili is a little too high. There's a bigger disparity between the two in that formula than those comments indicate.


I think where you are confused is that you think I agree with all the rankings in the formula. I don't. Bruce is too low and Manu is too high. I've already said this. I'm just saying I don't disagree with them as much as you do, primarily, because as I've written before, as a whole they're pretty much in the ballpark and I appreciate that at least someone is trying. That's the difference between you and me. I appreciate the effort of this and you just slag it. No, the difference is I breakdown the formula to figure out how it came about. You see Manu near the top and blindly think it's great.


3. It's getting annoying, having to repeatedly read your argument that Manu isn't a good one-on-one defender because Bruce takes the top guy. Bruce takes the top guy because he is the best defender in the league. Even if Manu was the second best defender in the NBA, (which he isn't) nothing would change because Bruce would still take the top guy. I mean, this logic is so twisted it's insane. It's like saying that if Kevin Garnett were on the team he'd only be the 2nd best power forward on the Spurs. While technically the statement is true, it has no context at all. Manu would be the best perimeter defender on most of the teams in the NBA. Just not the one he plays on. Also, as numerous posters have pointed out to you, his work on the other end is pretty damn valuable, so Pop and co. in the suits probably don't want to tire or foul him out on defense. For the same reason, Tim rarely guards the opponents best big man. Bruce doesn't need much energy to stand in the corners every offensive possession. Again, if Manu were the top five shooting guard one-on-one defenders, why does he never guard anyone of consequence unless he absolutely has to? Other players who have played next to Bowen have been able to cut into some of the assignments. Hedo was many times the primary defender against players like LeBron and Artest. Parker has been put on players like Iverson and Wade. Devin Brown even became the primary defender on Kobe in a couple playoff games. Just show me one instance where Pop has decided to put Manu on a star player in a situation other than when Bowen is getting his customary rest on the bench.

And again, this isn't even saying Manu isn't a good defender. Despite all of the players he primarily guarded in the playoffs scoring more against him and all the players Parker guarded scoring less, I still rank them as around the same level of overall defender. It's just that you are so blind to Manu flaw that you can't even admit something that is plain as day.


4. Wait, the best scorer in the NBA got hot on Manu? Holy shit, Manu must suck then. Once again, no context. I guess you forget that the only reason we even beat the Lakers once the whole season is because Manu blocked Kobe's jumper at the end of regulation in Los Angeles. Show me another Spur who can make that play. Manu is the only Spur who can make that play?

Classic.


5. Btw, your repeated insistence on splitting up one-on-one defense and team defense is getting tiresome. One-on-one defense doesn't mean anything. If you think in an empty gym that Tony can ever stop Nash or Bruce can stop Carmelo, you're crazy. David Robinson is the authority on this, and he said in an interview in SI long ago that for a good player, it's not really hard to score one-on-one against anybody. If you're a top 30, top 40 player, you have too many moves, too many weapons, the advantage of knowing what you're gonna do where the defender can only guess or react. To go back to the football analogy, even the best NFL shutdown corner is only expected to stay with his guy for 3 or 4 seconds. After that, anybody, even Champ Bailey, will get beat. So really, it doesn't matter if you're talking about Bruce or Tony or Manu or whoever. They all have the same job on defense, force their guy to take contested jumpers, funnel them toward their weak hand, help out a beat en teammate, and communicate with Tim (who makes the whole thing work).This is like the third grader take on the Spurs defense. You seriously think that when Bowen is playing against a star player that has the same defensive responsibilities when Manu is guarding a lesser player?

There's is a huge difference between their responsibilities in the team defense concept. Ginobili, since he's matched up against a sub par player usually, has much more freedom to leave his man. He can rotate early. He can go double early. Even if he's on the strong side, Ginobili has a lot of freedom.

Bowen, on the other hand, has to stay much more keyed in on his opponent. He can rotate in the team defensive setting, but only if he's coming from the weakside and there is a player close enough to him to rotate to his man. Bowen doesn't rotate from the strong side no matter who he is guarding.

It's two entirely different roles. You seem to be under the impression that Bowen, Ginobili and Parker have interchangeable roles and rules on the defensive end and that's far from the truth.


6. I'm not wrong about Horry. I don't want him to shoot the ball, ever. And I'm not too thrilled about having a guy on the team who clearly doesn't want to be on the court for most of the regular season games. He's like the posterchild for regular season apathy. His comment that he'd rather be a superstar who had Barkley's career rather than the role player with all the rings left me very cold. If that's what he really wanted for himself, than perhaps he should have stuck his nose in there and tried to score and rebound like a 6'11 guy instead of spending his whole career camped behind the three point line like a big wuss.A big wuss with seven championship rings, hater.

You can go around bashing other players on the Spurs. Yet if I point out half of a flaw Manu might have, you go ballistic.


7. A great flopper who begs for calls and a poor one-on-one defender. Yup, you're clearly a charter member of the Manu Ginobili fan club. As the saying goes, "With friends like you..." Maybe it'd be better if you didn't ever write about him. Holy crap. Are you denying that Manu flops? Even the most hardcore Manu homer can admit that Manu is a great flopper.

And again, that's a compliment. I wish everyone on the Spurs could flop like Manu. Parker is one of the worst floppers I've ever seen ... and it's a big reason why he doesn't find himself on the line more often. Duncan is also a pretty bad flopper.

This is Manu homerism to a new level.


8. Saying Tim Duncan is the best player in the league but that he didn't deserve the 2005 Finals MVP are not contradictory statements. He was playing with two bad ankles that year so he clearly wasn't at his best. If you couldn't tell the difference between '05 postseason Duncan and '07 postseason Duncan, I don't know what to tell you. It boggles my mind that he won the award vs the Pistons but not Cleveland when he was clearly better in this series than that one. He got the MVP in '05 because he had some decent scoring games in blowout losses (with awful - for him - shooting percentages though) and because Manu wasn't engaged to some ABC star.

Tim is one of the top ten players to ever play, but to suggest, rationally, that he played better in the '05 Finals than Ginobili is absurd. Manu was the best player on the floor in 3 of the 4 wins, and Horry was in the other. To me, if you want to give Duncan the award in '05, fine, you give it to him because of defense/rebounding/leadership/team's best player. Well how did any of those things change in '07? Either Manu should have won it in '05 or Tim should have in '07. You even agree with me on the latter part of that, so I don't understand why we're arguing. All I'm asking for is some consistency from the voters. I'm the one who pointed out his defense and rebounding in 2005 as a being a big reason why he won. You scoffed at it. Now all of a sudden it's "fine"? I guess since The Antichrist won Finals MVP, your position has changed.

And fess up to your take that Horry was better than Duncan in the 2005 Finals. That was one of your more embarrassing takes. Don't back off of it now.


9. I'm perfectly aware you jumped off the Marcus Williams bandwagon very quickly. But I'm also aware that you were the one who started the Marcus Williams bandwagon. Great athlete, good scorer, yadda, yadda, yadda. We should have drafted a backup point guard, but this FO clearly is not interested in playing anyone under 30 except for Tony. Link to where I started the Marcus Williams bandwagon. You got mad because you though I was comparing him to Manu, remember?



A post-Bowen swingman rotation of Ginobili, Nocioni, White and Williams would cover just about ever possible attribute. You'd have the heart (Ginobili), the toughness (Nocioni), the athlete (White) and the playmaker (Williams).


More like the guy who's really good (Ginobili), the guy who's pretty good (Nocioni), the guy who's decent (White), and the guy who'll suck out loud (Williams).

Relax. Everyone on earth knows Manu is by far the best of that foursome. He doesn't need to be put on a pedestal every time his name is mentioned. It's a given he's great.

How was that starting the Williams bandwagon? You can to Manu's rescue again like you always do and saw the word "Williams". That's the end of that story.

Bottomline is I've said repeatedly that Manu is a good overall defender. When he's playing like he was playing against the Cavs, he's the second best perimeter defender on the Spurs. Repeat, second best perimeter defender on the Spurs.

But, again, his strong suit isn't one-on-one defense. If he's matched up against a scorer, the other team attacks that matchup instantly. For that reason, Pop rarely puts him against an elite scorer unless he absolutely has to. If you want to argue that Manu is a good one-on-one defender, you aren't only arguing against me, you're arguing against Pop.

Manu is a great player. He's my favorite player on the team to watch. His will to win and the fact that he does whatever it takes for the team to improve makes him my favorite player on the team. I think he tries harder than anyone on the team and he'd put his life on the line to try to win a game. I respect Ginobili as a player as much as anyone can be respected.

That said, he isn't flawless. One of the few areas in which he isn't perfect is one-on-one defense. But that's fine because the Spurs have other players who can fill that void. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a void to be filled.

Stop being the ultimate Manu homer for a second and accept for once that Manu isn't the world's first flawless sportsman.




P.S.

And you can stop with your insistence that I turned people on this board against you. You are a huge Manu homer and there are a number of other huge Manu homers who will gladly stand next to you in battle. You aren't the first and you won't be the last ultimate Manu homer who thinks that Manu is God's gift to basketball. You'll always have plenty of support on your homeristic takes.

[timvp]

The best post I've read in while in this site.:lol

I remember when I could debate regarding Manu with Rick Von Braun without the person I'm arguing with melting down into some hissy fit. Rick Von Braun always kept it about basketball and it didn't get personal :tu

Although, I have to claim scoreboard on our epic conversations whether the Spurs are better with Manu in the starting lineup or coming off the bench.

:stirpot: :smokin

[timvp]

my 2 cents:

manu and bowen play opposite defensive styles. manu plays the risky anticpication game, and he does it extremely well (see how many post entry passes manu deflects every game- i rarely see other guards bother to defend this pass). of course, charges, steals, blocks, rebounds are easier to keep track of in stats so manu is ranked high.

bruce on the other hand hardly gambles because he can stay with anyone and herd them away from comfort zones. he is rarely boxing out because hes covering the shooter, so he doesnt get many rebounds either. his style is harder, and its effect is much bigger even though it doesnt come out in stats.

no doubt manu is getting credit for bruce's work in the ranking, also for duncan's work. no doubt tony and horry are getting credit for bruce and duncan, and the coaching staff for that matter. in the end defense is about a system and we have a good one.

as far as tony, his style is more similar to bruce, but he isnt as good at it (mostly because hes smaller than most players in the league) and he isnt as tenacious on the defensive end as bruce or manu. Well said. I can agree with most of that.


so i can see why timvp would prefer tony since hes in the bruce mold, but i think manu pulls off the risky style well enough to be more valuable than tony on the defensive end.The thing is I never said I prefer Tony's defense. Again, I rate them as about the same level of effectiveness defensively. stampler tries to twist it into a Ginobili vs. Parker thing when I'm on record as saying they are very close in terms of overall defensive ability.

But yeah, thanks for being able to tell the difference between the defense that Bowen plays and the defense that Manu plays. stampler is under the impression that they play the same type of defense :rolleyes

[aaronstampler]

I never said Manu doesn't have weaknesses. You just accuse me of thinking that way, LJ.

You want a list of weaknesses, here you go...

1. Crappy mid-range jumper, especially off his dribble. (Tony too, they both shoot perimeter shots a lot better off a pass and catch than when they're pulling up.)

2. Will take the occasional game off, mentally (especially a road Eastern game or a home contest against some crap no-chance team).

3. Doesn't play aggressively all the time offensively, sometimes falls in love with the 3 pointer.

4. Too unselfish at times, doesn't have a "pass me the fucking ball" personality. If that side ever comes out, it's usually in the 4th quarter of a tight game.

5. Low endurance, usually maxes out at 32 mins a night.

6. Doesn't take it upon himself to have a big scoring night unless Tim or Tony are having off nights.

7. Prone to the occasional dumb turnover.

8. Less disciplined and more individualistic on defense than offense, for good and bad.

9. Takes at least 3 shots a game that have no chance whatsoever, which can be a problem when you only get 6 or 8 shots some games.

10. "Only" the third best defender on the team.

11. Repeatedly denies LJ's request to wife swap for a weekend, and by the 4th time TimVP asked, he stopped being polite about it.

12. He's too damn dreamy.

13. Refuses to release rap album.

14. Doesn't like baseball or football.

15. He could update his website more often, especially the English parts.

16. A couple of his Gatorade commercials are wicked queer.

17. Sometimes, in his interviews, he's too charming. Stop trying so hard. You're not Brent Barry, you can actually play.

18. Where does he get off not being an American?

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

20. His autograph is impossible to make out.

[polandprzem]

So is manu a better defender then Ginobili or not?

[stéphane]

I never said Manu doesn't have weaknesses. You just accuse me of thinking that way, LJ.

You want a list of weaknesses, here you go...

1. Crappy mid-range jumper, especially off his dribble. (Tony too, they both shoot perimeter shots a lot better off a pass and catch than when they're pulling up.)

2. Will take the occasional game off, mentally (especially a road Eastern game or a home contest against some crap no-chance team).

3. Doesn't play aggressively all the time offensively, sometimes falls in love with the 3 pointer.

4. Too unselfish at times, doesn't have a "pass me the fucking ball" personality. If that side ever comes out, it's usually in the 4th quarter of a tight game.

5. Low endurance, usually maxes out at 32 mins a night.

6. Doesn't take it upon himself to have a big scoring night unless Tim or Tony are having off nights.

7. Prone to the occasional dumb turnover.

8. Less disciplined and more individualistic on defense than offense, for good and bad.

9. Takes at least 3 shots a game that have no chance whatsoever, which can be a problem when you only get 6 or 8 shots some games.

10. "Only" the third best defender on the team.

11. Repeatedly denies LJ's request to wife swap for a weekend, and by the 4th time TimVP asked, he stopped being polite about it.

12. He's too damn dreamy.

13. Refuses to release rap album.

14. Doesn't like baseball or football.

15. He could update his website more often, especially the English parts.

16. A couple of his Gatorade commercials are wicked queer.

17. Sometimes, in his interviews, he's too charming. Stop trying so hard. You're not Brent Barry, you can actually play.

18. Where does he get off not being an American?

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

20. His autograph is impossible to make out.

man STFU already
you're such a weak ass...

[stéphane]

oh and by the way, I love manu and it's very sad for him to have such unknowledgeable fans. And keep hating horry, but first tell me the last player you've seen put a performance like he did at the end of regulation and OT in game 5 of the 2005 finals. I was so shocked it was really jordanesque.
You're really one of the worst poster at ST.
sincerely yours :)

[thousandth]

So is manu a better defender then Ginobili or not?

:lmao


Bottomline is I've said repeatedly that Manu is a good overall defender. When he's playing like he was playing against the Cavs, he's the second best perimeter defender on the Spurs. Repeat, second best perimeter defender on the Spurs.

But, again, his strong suit isn't one-on-one defense. If he's matched up against a scorer, the other team attacks that matchup instantly. For that reason, Pop rarely puts him against an elite scorer unless he absolutely has to. If you want to argue that Manu is a good one-on-one defender, you aren't only arguing against me, you're arguing against Pop.

Manu is a great player. He's my favorite player on the team to watch. His will to win and the fact that he does whatever it takes for the team to improve makes him my favorite player on the team. I think he tries harder than anyone on the team and he'd put his life on the line to try to win a game. I respect Ginobili as a player as much as anyone can be respected.

I agree.
Nobody needs say more words. Thanks, timvp, to teach us.:D
I like a lot your game's grades and your lesson about bsk. But, are you (and aaronstampler and...) have a life out the forum? have a lovely summer?
Kidding, bro, I kidding.:D

[diego]

The thing is I never said I prefer Tony's defense.

oops. i didnt bother to read the 2nd half of page 1, just the replies in page 2. from aaron's posts i thought that was where the argument originated

[waly.mg]

I have a couple of comments

I remeber one Press Conference of Michael Jordan

Q - How you can score more than 30 Points a game?

A - Is too easy, 3 FGM and 2 FTM each Quarter

Tony every season score more and in every season Shoot more

In the PO Tony took 329 2 Points shots and Manu 148, TD 334

If you shoot more times always you are going to score more

In the Past we always play 4 Down, now with TP in the field we generally call the Play 9

Play 9:

1 - The PG takes the ball and tries to penetrate when coming out of a Pick and roll

2 - If he cannot come back to look for another pick and roll

3 - When coming out of the P&R tries to penetrate again

4 - Repeat steps 2 and 3, until they lack 10 seconds, this time if you can´t tries to shoot from outside

5 - If the PG doesn´t have the shot, looks for a teammate so that he is not the one who takes a difficult shot

6 - If the PG can take the shot, no one Teammate touch the ball in the Play

[thousandth]

I have a couple of comments

I remeber one Press Conference of Michael Jordan

Q - How you can score more than 30 Points a game?

A - Is too easy, 3 FGM and 2 FTM each Quarter

Tony every season score more and in every season Shoot more

In the PO Tony took 329 2 Points shots and Manu 148, TD 334

If you shoot more times always you are going to score more

In the Past we always play 4 Down, now with TP in the field we generally call the Play 9

Play 9:

1 - The PG takes the ball and tries to penetrate when coming out of a Pick and roll

2 - If he cannot come back to look for another pick and roll

3 - When coming out of the P&R tries to penetrate again

4 - Repeat steps 2 and 3, until they lack 10 seconds, this time if you can´t tries to shoot from outside

5 - If the PG doesn´t have the shot, looks for a teammate so that he is not the one who takes a difficult shot

6 - If the PG can take the shot, no one Teammate touch the ball in the Play

And? :rolleyes 9 isn´t a defensive play :D and the thread say Defensive Ratings.


I have a couple of comments

I'm sorry. I don't read... off comments :D

[waly.mg]

in Argentinean there is a saying

THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD ATTACK

The Best deffense play of Tony is the Play 9

[thousandth]

in Argentinean there is a saying

THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD ATTACK

The Best deffense play of Tony is the Play 9

Easy, bro. Easy. I get it.

[ShoogarBear]

WTF is it about Manu that generated this fan base that feels the need to, if not hate other Spurs, at least denegrate them in order to make Manu look better?

In 30+ years of Spur Fandom there's never been anything like it.

Nobody argued about Silas vs. Gervin, or Gervin vs. Mitchell.

Kenon himself had some issues abut his stats, but the fans were never divided on it.

And there was plenty of credit for both Robinson and Duncan to go around.

It wasn't until the Church of Manu showed up that objective analysis of a player strengths and weaknesses became the Inquisition.

[diego]

i dont know whottt you are talking about shoogar bear
...

[polandprzem]

i dont know whottt you are talking about shoogar bear
...

Frankly speaking me too.

Where is this hate? I saw some comparisons (one player to another) but all in all the hate for the 'other' spurs player is not much seen.

Maybe Shoog got different insight on that one or I do not look carefull enough.

[ShoogarBear]

13. Refuses to release rap album.

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

[SRJ]

I have seen the Manu v. Parker fans in action...on two different Spurs sites. It's very real.

[polandprzem]

13. Refuses to release rap album.

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

Irony?
Bit of sarcasm?

[diego]

i dont know whottt you are talking about shoogar bear
...

drob v duncan
barry v finley
aj v tp
etc

[ShoogarBear]

Irony?
Bit of sarcasm?Not from that source.

[ShoogarBear]

drob v duncan
barry v finley
aj v tp
etcYou forgot:
Drob vs. Coyote
Wrestling vs. Sports
Shane Heal vs. The World

That's whottt's schtick. Waay different from the near-paranoia about Manu.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'll echo Shoog -- I don't understand why it's so important to some that Manu or Tony is recognized as the clear #2 dog on this team; frankly, I don't think that anyone associated with the Spurs ever considers that question.

As for the question at hand, I see the rating itself as creating a metric that gives a credible result merely by happenstance. The Spurs' players do well in the metric because they have great +/- numbers -- half of the roster is in the Top 110 in that category. That's true because those players are better-than-average or better defenders on a league-wide basis. But it's also amplified, I think, because the Spurs have a whole bunch of those kinds of players. More importantly, though, I think that for the Spurs front line players, the defensive +/- that 82games uses (as I understand it), tends to get skewed a bit because there are enough games with lots of garbage time during a season to inflate those numbers for all of the guys who tend to sit a lot in the late stages of blowouts.

The Spurs blow teams out, but rarely get blown out. By a rough count, the Spurs were 15-0 in 2006-07 in games decided by 20+ points and were 25-3 in games decided by 15 points or more. In 2005-06, the Spurs were 13-0 in games decided by 20+ points and 18-4 in games decided by 15 points or more. That means that the Spurs are playing lots of garbage time -- and that doesn't include the handful of instances in which the Spurs starters built big leads only for those leads to be surrendered late.

The point of all of that is to say that so much garbage time will, in some cases at least, inflate the defensive numbers of the starters as the end of the benchers and the usual garbage time performers are surrendering points to an opponents starters for some portion of garbage time. I'm not saying that it completely nullifies the observation; but with 1/3 of the weighted score being derived from that metric, I question the conclusion at least a bit.

[polandprzem]

Not from that source.

hehe

I understand your pointview (if this word does not exsist it definately should)

[stéphane]

Seriously, I can understand someone being member of a "church" because you like his style on the court or the personnality off the court. But I dont get the bash to promote some are applying on some spurs players to praise Manu. Manu doesn't need his teammates to be worse than him to be a really skilled fun to watched dude.
But how can't you agree with Shoog and FWD when you read the kind of post aaron is writing. He's just a manu fan not a spurs fan. For his info it's SpursTalk here not ManuTalk.

[wildchild]

Seriously...But how can't you agree with Shoog and FWD when you read the kind of post aaron is writing. He's just a manu fan not a spurs fan. For his info it's SpursTalk here not ManuTalk.

For your info it's Spurs Talk here, not Tony Talk! :lmao



I have seen the Manu v. Parker fans in action...on two different Spurs sites. It's very real.

I don't sure...:lmao

[stéphane]

For your info it's Spurs Talk here, not Tony Talk! :lmao


ah "you don't sure" That's your 2nd day at ST and based upon my nationality you think all i can talk about is tp LOL
at least you were honest enough to include child in your pseudo :rolleyes

[mathbzh]

I used to be upset by the Manu vs. TP debate...
But it is finally a good entertainment.

Tim Cena MVP vs. Bobby Aaron Lashley
:corn:

[wildchild]

ah "you don't sure" That's your 2nd day at ST and based upon my nationality you think all i can talk about is tp LOL
at least you were honest enough to include child in your pseudo :rolleyes

child, and WILD. :p:

Seriously, where it is your sense of humor? I respect your nationality and if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
And it can be, that is my second day in spursforum but still I maintain my good humor.

If you are long time in ST, you lose the good humor? :lol

[mathbzh]

child, and WILD. :p:

Seriously, where it is your sense of humor? I respect your nationality and if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
And it can be, that is my second day in spursforum but still I maintain my good humor.

If you are long time in ST, you lose the good humor? :lol

You will soon realize that Parker vs. Gino is a very touchy subject
:blah

[wildchild]

You will soon realize that Parker vs. Gino is a very touchy subject
:blah

seems that :spin

[YamaSama]

The same guy who devised the original defensive ratings decided to come out with a revised version:

http://82games.com/nichols2.htm

Bruce gets his props in this version.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

good to see that little whiny bitch aaronstampler get timvp'd.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

WTF is it about Manu that generated this fan base that feels the need to, if not hate other Spurs, at least denegrate them in order to make Manu look better?

In 30+ years of Spur Fandom there's never been anything like it.

Nobody argued about Silas vs. Gervin, or Gervin vs. Mitchell.

Kenon himself had some issues abut his stats, but the fans were never divided on it.

And there was plenty of credit for both Robinson and Duncan to go around.

It wasn't until the Church of Manu showed up that objective analysis of a player strengths and weaknesses became the Inquisition.


I think the spurs big three in this recent time are in an echelon together that three spurs stars previous never reached together at the same time. The stakes are higher. But basically the manu church homers are just bitching to justify their own existence.

[timvp]

The same guy who devised the original defensive ratings decided to come out with a revised version:

http://82games.com/nichols2.htm

Bruce gets his props in this version.This is so classic. The guy adjusted his formula almost exactly how I said it should be adjusted. Anyone who was arguing against me just got owned by the writer of the article :lmao

I was pointing out the weaknesses in the formula and I get the freakin' Manu Mob carrying pitchforks trying to shout me down. They could have read what I was typing instead of trying to justify the formula just because their man was highly ranked. But then again, that'd be asking a lot from the worst sect of supposed Spurs fans in Spurs history.


As I mentioned when I first released the stat I have developed called Defensive Composite Score, it was very much a work in progress. I’m not one to assume that my ideas are better than others, so, after listening to e-mails from readers and ideas from the good people at the APBRmetrics message board (see http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/index.php), I made a few changes to the statistic. In my opinion, it’s better than it’s ever beenBut, but I thought we were supposed to just except whatever it is the last article said.

:lol


Another major change was the removal of the box score stats completely. The three stats used were blocks, steals, and foul efficiency. Unfortunately, those stats don’t tell us much and can be very deceiving.That's almost exactly what I said on page one of this thread. You can't judge how well a player plays defense by looking at blocks, steals and fouls. As I said earlier in the thread, some of the worst defenders in the league get a lot of steals or block a lot of shots.

Taking out that category completely was a good move.


Finally, I received a bunch of e-mails explaining how it’s not fair for Player X to get a certain score because said player either plays only in garbage time or said player has to guard the other team’s best scorer every night. I tried to adjust for that by using a statistic developed at the APBRmetrics board called %St. This statistic estimates how much of a player’s minutes were against starter-quality opponents. Again, almost word for word from what I said earlier in the thread.


The new rankings are much better overall. Still a work in progress but it's a whole lot better than his first attempt. Taking out the box score stats is a huge plus. Counterpart plus/minus in its place is a huge upgrade.

There are still some holes, however. He doesn't say how the Defensive Ranking stat is derived. He combined the counterpart plus/minus so now if you are a swingman, you get an even bigger boost by playing next to a great defender. He talks about "%St" but didn't list the actual numbers and didn't say how it was used. But overall, this is a step in the right direction and he eliminated some of the major flaws I noted with his first attempt.

I'll be interested in how the Manu Mob responds to this update. Bowen is now listed as the better defender than Manu. Manu and Parker are virtually tied in the ranking. And now that counterpart +/- is used, it's impossible for a Manu homer to argue that Bowen didn't boost Manu's placement.

Parker ranks out as the best defensive starting point guard in the NBA. He tops them all in counterpart +/-, which is pretty impressive because Parker almost always guards the opposing point guard in the regular season. Pop only start putting Bowen on point guards in the playoffs.

But no doubt, Parker and Manu are both overrated in this ranking. Both are ranked as the best defender at their position. Neither one is the best at their position. However, I do agree with how close they are ranked and I'd even agree that Manu was the better defender in the regular season last year.

Duncan came away as by far the best defensive player in the league. And while he struggled at times last year defensively in the regular season, I believe he's a top two or three defender when he's trying. At his best, he's easily the best defender in the game. In this ranking, the difference between Duncan and second place is the same difference between second place and ninth place.

Bowen at number three overall makes this formula much more believable. Other than the Manu Mob, I don't think anyone could agree with Bowen not even being one of the best defenders on his own team. (Of course the Manu Mob could point to a couple games in which Bowen struggled to justify his lowered ranking in the first article.)

Bowen's defense is even more impressive when you look at the counterpart +/-. He turns players around him into very good defenders. The top two rated defenders on the Spurs according to counterpart +/- are Ginobili and Barry -- and we know that those numbers are heavily influenced by Bowen's ability to guard either shooting guards or small forwards ... unless a Manu homer wants to fight the fight that Barry is some sort of lockdown defender :rollin

If I were to rate the best defenders on the Spurs last regular season, I would have ranked them Bowen, Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and Horry. The result of this formula ranked them Duncan, Bowen, Ginobili, Parker and Horry ... so overall the formula did a nice job. Duncan and Bowen are close and when he's at his best, Duncan is the best defender in the league, so I can't argue with the top two spots being flip flopped.

Looking around the league, the results are a lot better than last time. I'll give this attempt a thumbs up. However, it can still be improved upon and the writer can do a better job of explaining how each part of the formula is used to calculate the findings.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm not even going to get into the Manu vs. Tony thing again, but there are still too many bizarre outcomes about the DCS to take it very seriously. The fact that he has black-boxed it so that you can't argue about his formula, only the results, is completely bogus.

-Joel Przybilla is the #2 defensive player in the league?
-Ilgauskas is #7?
-So, timvp, Elson is a better defender than Oberto? And Barry is better than Jacque Vaughn?

[timvp]

I'm not even going to get into the Manu vs. Tony thing again, but there are still too many bizarre outcomes about the DCS to take it very seriously.Comparing it to his first attempt, this one is much better. The first one was a joke. Comparatively, this one is leaps and bounds better.

That said, I still don't think you can accurately find the best defenders in the league solely depending on stats. My thumbs up was more in regards of this second version being less of a joke.


The fact that he has black-boxed it so that you can't argue about his formula, only the results, is completely bogus.


Exactly. He goes out of his way to keep his method a secret. That is absurdly lame, especially when his latest formula was basically re-written by the posters on the apbrmetric forum.

He's never explained how the hell "Defensive Rating" is derived and seeing as that still lists Bowen as the worst defender on the Spurs, that part of the formula has to be explained for the overall formula to mean anything.


-Joel Przybilla is the #2 defensive player in the league?Good defender. But of course not the second best defender in the league. What I'm guessing happened is now that he's using the amount of time players play against starters in his formula, a player like Przybilla who started but played few minutes would rank high in that category. Thus that'd inflate his stats.

Of course, he doesn't give the St% numbers or tell how it's used. :rolleyes

-Ilgauskas is #7? That's probably the worst one. I'm guessing it's just a product of Mike Brown's system ... and the fact that this formula still sucks for the most part.


-So, timvp, Elson is a better defender than Oberto? And Barry is better than Jacque Vaughn?Oberto was a horrible defender in the regular season. So horrible in fact that it's pretty likely that Elson was the better defender. In the playoffs, Oberto picked it up and was worlds better defensively than Elson.

Barry over Vaughn just shows how good of a defender Bowen is. Barry, much like Manu, defends the other team's worst perimeter player when he's in the game while Bowen guards the best. If that player happens to be listed as a shooting guard (which is usually the case), Barry (and Manu) get credit for the job Bowen is doing defensively.

Add to that Vaughn being an overrated defender and I can understand why that outcome occurred given what the formula consists of. And though I view Vaughn as an overrated defender, the drastic difference between his counterpart plus/minus and Parker's counterpart plus/minus points to Parker perhaps being a better defender than most want to give him credit for.

[ShoogarBear]

That said, I still don't think you can accurately find the best defenders in the league solely depending on stats. And that's the key.

There actually is a hypothetical "perfect" way of rating defensive players. It's impossible to do, but it's worth going through the mental exercise:

Step 1. Take Bruce Bowen off the Spurs and replace him with, say Ron Artest. Then have the Spurs play their normal regular season schedule and evaluate the difference in team defensive efficiency with Artest vs. with Bowen. Then go through that for the Spurs with every other swingman in the league.

Step 2. Now take Bowen and have him replace the 3 (or 2) on every other team in the league, play their schedule, and evaluate the difference in defensive efficiency with and without Bowen.

Step 3: Repeat step 2 for Artest and every other swingman in the league.

What you end up with is a matrix which will show for each team in the league, which players play the best defense for their system. So if you take the guys who rank highest across the board for all teams, you have accounted for differences in teammates, coaching styles, rotations, etc. to the maximum extent possible.

Of course, that's impossible to do (although it might be interesting to see what they can do with some of the 5-man comb stats they have now), but THAT should be the true goal of any defensive rating scheme. The use of St% is somewhat a step in that direction. The use of counterpart PER is not, nor is the use of the magical mystical defensive rating as far as I can tell.

Until somebody comes close to doing that, though, I'm just going to trust these lying eyes.

[aaronstampler]

If you want to perpetuate the myth that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce, go ahead LJ, but both of us know I don't believe that. The only point I've ever made to you is that all having Bruce guard the better scorer means is that Bruce is a better one-on-one defender than Manu, period. It doesn't mean that Manu is a poor one-on-one defender, though.

Since Bruce is probably the best one-on-one perimeter defender in the league, he'd be guarding the other team's best player, regardless of who our team's shooting guard is. Conversely, Manu would be guarding the top guy if he was on 2/3 of the other team's in the league. Thankfully, he's on Bruce's team so he doesn't have to.

Overall though, I still think you're missing one important thing. Pop let's both Tim and Manu take a bit of a breather on defense because they actually have jobs to do on the other end. Bruce gets to spend 95% of his energy on defense because all he has to do on offense is stand in the corners with a thumb up his butt.

At the end of the day the team can afford to get zero offense from Bruce, but it sure can't afford to have Tim or Manu produce nothing. The team can afford Bruce to be in foul trouble. It can't afford Tim or Manu to.

If you want to give credit to anyone, give it to Tony. He's the only guy really who has to guard decent people most nights and still bring it on the other end. I'd rather you give him the praise than all the incessant slurping over Bruce.

Yeah, Bruce is good at his job. But it's his ONLY responsibility. If he wasn't good at it, he wouldn't be in the league. Giving Bruce props for his defense is like giving Steve Kerr credit for nailing threes or giving a lefty reliever like Mike Myers credit for getting Big Papi out. It's their jobs! It's the only reason they're employed! Don't you get this?

At the end of the day, I think our most valuable defender is still Tim. The ratings got it right with him. He's the foundation that makes everything else possible. He blocks the shots, he alters the shots, and he gets the rebounds. When Bruce and Manu and Tony get beaten, he's still the guy that has to save the day back there.

[Manudona]

I have the perfect name to be a Manu homer, so I will give it a try!


Manu and Parker are virtually tied in the ranking.

Manu 56.3 6th
Tony 40.0 21st

# Scores of 40+: Excellent defender
# 20 to 40: Very good defender

Virtually tied? You were talking about their shoes in EA NBA 2007? :P



Parker ranks out as the best defensive starting point guard in the NBA. He tops them all in counterpart +/-, which is pretty impressive because Parker almost always guards the opposing point guard in the regular season. Pop only start putting Bowen on point guards in the playoffs.


Devin Harris has a much better def +/- and a much better DCS Rating (although for you 47.6 vs 40.0 is virtually tied, right? as long as it pushes your argument, of course) :P. So you used the only stat that he has better and then transform him in the best PG? Even though they are virtually tied at 13.7 vs 15 :P :P


Other than the Manu Mob, I don't think anyone could agree with Bowen not even being one of the best defenders on his own team. (Of course the Manu Mob could point to a couple games in which Bowen struggled to justify his lowered ranking in the first article.)


Sorry TimVP but I do not remember reading not even one poster saying or implying this, other than you constantly accusing Aaron of doing it.

[QUOTE=timvp]Bowen's defense is even more impressive when you look at the counterpart +/-. He turns players around him into very good defenders. The top two rated defenders on the Spurs according to counterpart +/- are Ginobili and Barry -- and we know that those numbers are heavily influenced by Bowen's ability to guard either shooting guards or small forwards ... unless a Manu homer wants to fight the fight that Barry is some sort of lockdown defender :rollin
[quote]

Manu played, in the regular season, 2057:45 minutes, of those 1140:59 he was in the floor with Bowen, Barry played 1630:08, of those 856:04 with Bowen, so, if they depend so much on Bowen as you imply, how do you account for almost half their playing time? They just suck without Bowen but Bowen makes them into incredible defensive machines that they boost their defensive game in that half they are playing with him? It smells like you are playing with stats to show, yet again, what helps your argument.


Anyways, I think stats suck, they are a useful to managers and coaches as an information tool, but they do not show nothing else, all this attempts to rank players using them do not show much about a player's real game or value, as anything taken in a snapshot. For example, Manu's fault to Dirk in game 7 2006 po, just counts as one fault in the stats sheet, but taking it as the only play in the game to blame him also ignores that the Spurs were in that position thanks to in great part to his heart

[timvp]

I have the perfect name to be a Manu homer, so I will give it a try!Welcome.


Manu 56.3 6th
Tony 40.0 21st

# Scores of 40+: Excellent defender
# 20 to 40: Very good defender

Virtually tied? You were talking about their shoes in EA NBA 2007? :POne is in the 98th percentile. One is in the 94th percentile. Both graded out as excellent defenders the best starters at their position. That's virtually tied or very close or however you want to put it.


Devin Harris has a much better def +/- and a much better DCS Rating (although for you 47.6 vs 40.0 is virtually tied, right? as long as it pushes your argument, of course) :P. So you used the only stat that he has better and then transform him in the best PG? Even though they are virtually tied at 13.7 vs 15 :P :PDevin Harris is no doubt a good defender but first of all, is he even the point guard of the Mavs? Terry averages more assists and brings up the ball as much or more than Harris. Harris also played a pretty good portion of his minutes from off the bench. And to top it off, Harris is a versatile defender who AJ puts on shooting guards a lot of the time.

Even if you want to overlook all that and count Harris is the best starting point guard defender, then I guess could survive with number two.



Sorry TimVP but I do not remember reading not even one poster saying or implying this, other than you constantly accusing Aaron of doing it.

You must have missed this post:
Don't forget that in the regular season Bowen had his ups and downs defensively. The usual suspects like T-Mac/Kobe/Wade (and even Adam Morrison) had good nights against him and even in the playoffs Melo had his way with him for a while.

Bruce deserves credit for stepping up his game in the playoffs, but I don't think his regular season ranking is that far offCare to rephrase? :)


Manu played, in the regular season, 2057:45 minutes, of those 1140:59 he was in the floor with Bowen, Barry played 1630:08, of those 856:04 with Bowen, so, if they depend so much on Bowen as you imply, how do you account for almost half their playing time? They just suck without Bowen but Bowen makes them into incredible defensive machines that they boost their defensive game in that half they are playing with him? It smells like you are playing with stats to show, yet again, what helps your argument.When Bowen is off the floor, that means the other team's best player on the wing is usually off the floor. So either way, Ginobili and Barry avoid matching up with the other team's best player.

Ginobili is a much better defender than Barry, but you won't find either one guarding a superstar scorer for longer than a couple possessions.

If you want to argue that Barry is a great defender ... well, then I guess I'll have to concede that point to you.


Anyways, I think stats suck, they are a useful to managers and coaches as an information tool, but they do not show nothing else, all this attempts to rank players using them do not show much about a player's real game or value, as anything taken in a snapshot. For example, Manu's fault to Dirk in game 7 2006 po, just counts as one fault in the stats sheet, but taking it as the only play in the game to blame him also ignores that the Spurs were in that position thanks to in great part to his heartExactly.

[timvp]

If you want to perpetuate the myth that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce, go ahead LJ, but both of us know I don't believe that. The only point I've ever made to you is that all having Bruce guard the better scorer means is that Bruce is a better one-on-one defender than Manu, period. It doesn't mean that Manu is a poor one-on-one defender, though.

Since Bruce is probably the best one-on-one perimeter defender in the league, he'd be guarding the other team's best player, regardless of who our team's shooting guard is. Conversely, Manu would be guarding the top guy if he was on 2/3 of the other team's in the league. Thankfully, he's on Bruce's team so he doesn't have to.So when Bowen was out of the game against Denver, why didn't Manu guard either Carmelo or AI? Finley guarded Carmelo while Parker guarded AI. Ginobili would guard whoever else was on the court (usually either Blake or Kleiza). If Ginobili were a top flight one-on-one defender as you say, wouldn't he have been next in line to guard at least one of those two players?


Overall though, I still think you're missing one important thing. Pop let's both Tim and Manu take a bit of a breather on defense because they actually have jobs to do on the other end. You really think Tim and Manu take a breather on the defensive end of the court? Tim is the anchor of the defense and is the last line of defense. Manu is always alert playing team defense.

What you consider a breather is actually playing to each player's strength. Duncan has become a great weakside shotblocker and is great at rotating off his man and clogging the lane. Manu is a great team defender who can cause havoc no matter who he is guarding. Keeping Duncan off the other team's best post player until it matters saves Duncan from getting in foul trouble. Manu isn't asked to guard good to great perimeter scorers because that's his weaknesses defensively ... and it'd neutralize his strength in the help defense department.


Bruce gets to spend 95% of his energy on defense because all he has to do on offense is stand in the corners with a thumb up his butt.

At the end of the day the team can afford to get zero offense from Bruce, but it sure can't afford to have Tim or Manu produce nothing. The team can afford Bruce to be in foul trouble. It can't afford Tim or Manu to.

If you want to give credit to anyone, give it to Tony. He's the only guy really who has to guard decent people most nights and still bring it on the other end. I'd rather you give him the praise than all the incessant slurping over Bruce.

Yeah, Bruce is good at his job. But it's his ONLY responsibility. If he wasn't good at it, he wouldn't be in the league. Giving Bruce props for his defense is like giving Steve Kerr credit for nailing threes or giving a lefty reliever like Mike Myers credit for getting Big Papi out. It's their jobs! It's the only reason they're employed! Don't you get this? You act like playing defense is a specialty on the level of being a good three-point shooter or being a left handed relief pitcher. What you are missing out on is defense is half the game in basketball. It's not a specialty, it's actually the Spurs' bread and butter.

The Spurs have won three out of the last five championships because of their defense. Bowen is the leader of the defensive unit. That's not a one-trick pony -- that's a pony that excels in half the tricks.

[anakha]

The Spurs have won three out of the last five championships because of their defense. Bowen is the leader of the defensive unit. That's not a one-trick pony -- that's a pony that excels in half the tricks.

That pretty much sums up Bruce's value to the team, and why replacing him is going to be that damn hard.

[Manudona]

Welcome.

Thanks!


One is in the 98th percentile. One is in the 94th percentile. Both graded out as excellent defenders the best starters at their position. That's virtually tied or very close or however you want to put it.

Not that I care too much, but the author of the ranking posted a scale, and while one was on the top of the scale, the other was one step below; so I disagree with your point of view, which does not mean I can not understand your perspective.


Devin Harris is no doubt a good defender but first of all, is he even the point guard of the Mavs? Terry averages more assists and brings up the ball as much or more than Harris. Harris also played a pretty good portion of his minutes from off the bench. And to top it off, Harris is a versatile defender who AJ puts on shooting guards a lot of the time.

Even if you want to overlook all that and count Harris is the best starting point guard defender, then I guess could survive with number two.

Yep #2 (on that ranking of course sounds much better, I am a easy to please :D



You must have missed this post:Care to rephrase? :)


I read that completely different than you, for me he is not saying that Manu is better than Bowen, he is trying (unsuccesfully it seems :)) to justify the reason why the formula might have worked out that way, and He is not using arguments too different than yours, that Bowen is always playing against the very best players of the opponents, paying dearly in the stats and rankings for every good night this stars had. I understand again your pov, specially for I think Aaron last sentence was very fortunate, saying he stepped up his game might look as saying he was not playing as good.




When Bowen is off the floor, that means the other team's best player on the wing is usually off the floor. So either way, Ginobili and Barry avoid matching up with the other team's best player.

Ginobili is a much better defender than Barry, but you won't find either one guarding a superstar scorer for longer than a couple possessions.

If you want to argue that Barry is a great defender ... well, then I guess I'll have to concede that point to you.

Exactly.


I am not sure TimVP, what about Finley, where is he in this picture? why does he not have his defensive stats boosted? after all he started many many games with Bowen on the floor, right? Finley and Bowen made the second worst two man unit of the RO in a little less than 800 minutes (+/-, not defensive, point here is really the minutes played), a similar number of minutes of the Bowen - Barry duo, yet Finley is buried as the last Spur in DCS rating AND Def +/-, and in the worst half of the Counter part, so, why can't Finley feed of Bowen's game? By the way, if you look at Def +/-, Manu is the 3rd best Spur and Barry and Finley the two worst and Manu smokes past Barry in the DCS, so your Barry/Manu argument is only comparable in one of the defensive stats, so I can say Barry feeds of Bowen much better than Manu :smokin.

Anyways, I think I am lost, I no longer remember what was what I was arguing , I think I am just arguing for the sake of arguing :blah , as I said, I do not like stats! By the way, you know who is an statistician? A guy who has his head in the oven and his feet in the freezer and proclaims "On average, I feel great" (roughly and quickly translated, wording might vary) :D

[MaNuMaNiAc]

wow... glad I stumbled upon this thread 3 days late :lol Now I know to stay the fuck out. Another Tp vs Manu thread... after a championship no less... I guess its alright, with the Spurs having done squat this offseason, I'd imagine people here are starving for some controvercy

[TheAuthority]

I've just been skimming through this horse shit, and anyone who thinks Manu is a better defender than Bowen is a Manu fan boy. Plain and simple. When's the last time Manu was up for defensive player of the year? Try um... never. He showed his great ability to play defense when he took Nowitzki's arm off, in one of the most boneheaded defensive plays in NBA history, that cost the Spurs a championship. So no, please don't even put him in the same sentence with Bowen.

[wildchild]

Oberto was a horrible defender in the regular season. So horrible in fact that it's pretty likely that Elson was the better defender. In the playoffs, Oberto picked it up and was worlds better defensively than Elson.

Nevertheless the Oberto stats of playoffs wasn't good either. And Oberto was better defender than Elson in the playoffs. He did a great job playing D against Amare, Boozer and Z. How is explained that?.

I think that the stats aren´t everything.