No wonder Liberals are opposed to...

[Yonivore]

...requiring photo identification at the voting booth.

Remember this (http://www.columbian.com/news/state/APStories/AP07262007news173953.cfm) next time you hear liberals oppose the idea of making voters show ID to vote:


King County prosecutors filed felony charges Thursday against seven people in what a top official described as the worst case of voter-registration fraud in state history, while the organization they worked for agreed to keep a better eye on its employees and pay $25,000 to defray costs of the investigation.

The seven submitted about 1,800 registration cards last fall on behalf of the liberal Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, which had hired them at $8 an hour to sign people up to vote, according to charging documents filed in Superior Court.
[…]
Election officials feared that tossing all of the registrations could inadvertently disenfranchise any potentially legitimate voters in the batch. So they allowed the names to appear on the rolls for subsequent elections, including an advisory vote on replacing Seattle’s Alaskan Way Viaduct in March.

But they flagged those names and tried to verify them using other state databases. Only six turned out to be legitimate voters, Satterberg said. The King County canvassing board agreed to remove many of the rest - 1,762 - from the rolls Thursday, satisfied they were fraudulent
Six out of 1,800 were legitimate voters. In a state where, in 2004, the Democrat governor won, after 3 questionable recounts, by a margin of only 129 votes.

Of course, ACORN is claiming to be a victim. I guess they were a victim in Missouri (http://news.yahoo.com/s/kmbc/20061102/lo_kmbc/10214492), too. And Ohio (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/02/politics/main2056802.shtml). And Pennsylvania (http://www.pottstownmercury.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13098474&BRD=1674&PAG=461&dept_id=18041&rfi=6). And Florida (http://www.news4jax.com/politics/3841393/detail.html). And Colorado (http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=8ac173fd-0abe-421a-011e-5ce7dfcf561e&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf).

Once again, it’s clear why they oppose measures aimed at making voters prove their identity.

ACORN claims to be a nonpartisan community organizing group. But in reality (http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009189):


Acorn is a union-backed, multimillion-dollar outfit that uses intimidation and other tactics to push for higher minimum wage mandates and to trash Wal-Mart and other non-union companies.

Operating in at least 38 states (as well as Canada and Mexico), Acorn pushes a highly partisan agenda, and its organizers are best understood as shock troops for the AFL-CIO and even the Democratic Party. As part of the Fannie Mae reform bill, House Democrats pushed an “affordable housing trust fund” designed to use Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac profits to subsidize Acorn, among other groups.

Which reminds us just how “nonpartisan” ACORN is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUbCW6krrXI

(I really wish someone would tell me how to embed YouTube video or, if we're unable, upgrade the forum to where we can.)

[George Gervin's Afro]

...requiring photo identification at the voting booth.

Remember this (http://www.columbian.com/news/state/APStories/AP07262007news173953.cfm) next time you hear liberals oppose the idea of making voters show ID to vote:


Six out of 1,800 were legitimate voters. In a state where, in 2004, the Democrat governor won, after 3 questionable recounts, by a margin of only 129 votes.

Of course, ACORN is claiming to be a victim. I guess they were a victim in Missouri (http://news.yahoo.com/s/kmbc/20061102/lo_kmbc/10214492), too. And Ohio (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/02/politics/main2056802.shtml). And Pennsylvania (http://www.pottstownmercury.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13098474&BRD=1674&PAG=461&dept_id=18041&rfi=6). And Florida (http://www.news4jax.com/politics/3841393/detail.html). And Colorado (http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=8ac173fd-0abe-421a-011e-5ce7dfcf561e&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf).

Once again, it’s clear why they oppose measures aimed at making voters prove their identity.

ACORN claims to be a nonpartisan community organizing group. But in reality (http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009189):



Which reminds us just how “nonpartisan” ACORN is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUbCW6krrXI

(I really wish someone would tell me how to embed YouTube video or, if we're unable, upgrade the forum to where we can.)


yet Yoni is silent when republicans are accused of voter fraud across the country... I guess that's just a coincedence.. I guess I will have to rememebr this as well.. to keep the hypocrite..I mean Yoni honest..

[Yonivore]

yet Yoni is silent when republicans are accused of voter fraud across the country... I guess that's just a coincedence.. I guess I will have to rememebr this as well.. to keep the hypocrite..I mean Yoni honest..
Really, when was I silent on voter fraud by Republicans? Let's go back and look at the threads.

[boutons_]

Editor's Note: A full examination of this issue will be the topic for this week's program, "Voter Caging" on "NOW" airing Friday, July 27 on PBS (Check local listings at http://www.pbs.org/now/sched.html.). TO/vh

Also see:
Truthout's interview with former US attorney for New Mexico David Iglesias •

View exhibit three here.
View exhibit sixteen here.
View RNC emails here.

Exclusive | Emails Detail RNC Voter Suppression in Five States
By Jason Leopold and Matt Renner
t r u t h o u t | Report

Thursday 26 July 2007



Truthout has obtained previously undisclosed GOP campaign emails from the 2004 presidential race that reveal and detail strategies to disenfranchise voters in crucial swing states.

Previously undisclosed documents detail how Republican operatives, with the knowledge of several White House officials, engaged in an illegal, racially-motivated effort to suppress tens of thousands of votes during the 2004 presidential campaign in a state where George W. Bush was trailing his Democratic challenger, Senator John Kerry.

The documents also contain details describing how Bush-Cheney 2004 campaign officials, and at least one individual who worked for White House political adviser Karl Rove, planned to stop minorities residing in Cuyahoga County from voting on election day.

The efforts to purge voters from registration rolls was spearheaded by Tim Griffin, a former Republican National Committee opposition researcher. Griffin recently resigned from his post as interim US attorney for Little Rock Arkansas. His predecessor, Bud Cummins, was forced out to make way for Griffin.

Another set of documents, 43 pages of emails, provided to Truthout by the PBS news program "NOW," contains blueprints for a massive effort undertaken by RNC operatives in 2004, to challenge the eligibility of voters expected to support Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry in states such as Nevada, New Mexico, Florida and Pennsylvania.

One email, dated September 30, 2004, and sent to a dozen or so staffers on the Bush-Cheney campaign and the RNC, under the subject line "voter reg fraud strategy conference call," describes how campaign staffers planned to challenge the veracity of votes in a handful of battleground states in the event of a Democratic victory.

Furthermore, the emails show the Bush-Cheney campaign and RNC staffers compiled voter-challenge lists that targeted probable Democratic voters in at least five states: New Mexico, Ohio, Florida, Nevada and Pennsylvania. Voting rights lawyers have made allegations of so called "vote caging," against Republicans previously. These emails provide more evidence. One Republican operative involved in the planning wrote "we can do this in NV, FL, PA and NM because we have a list to run against the Absentee Ballot requests, and should."

Vote caging is an illegal tactic to suppress minorities from voting by having their names purged from voter rolls when they fail to respond to registered mail sent to their homes. The Republican National Committee signed a consent decree in 1986 stating they would not engage in the practice after they were caught suppressing votes in 1981 and 1986.

In a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Senators Sheldon Whitehouse (D-Rhode Island) and Edward Kennedy (D-Massachusetts) said "[c]aging is a reprehensible voter suppression tactic, and it may also violate federal law and the terms of applicable judicially enforceable consent decrees." Senators Rockefeller (D-West Virginia) and Whitehouse have called for a Justice Department probe into the practice.

One of the individuals connected to the White House who was the recipient of dozens of emails discussing the strategy to suppress votes was Coddy Johnson, the national field director of Bush's 2004 campaign and former associate director of political affairs, working under Karl Rove. Johnson's father was Bush's college roommate at Yale. Another person who was asked to participate in the so-called "voter reg fraud strategy" conference call was Jennifer Millerwise, a former deputy communications director for the Bush-Cheney 2004 re-election campaign and a former spokesperson for Vice President Cheney. Millerwise was interviewed by Patrick Fitzgerald during the federal investigation into the leak of covert CIA operative Valerie Plame Wilson.

Other participants for the conference call included Mark "Thor" Hearne. Hearne is closely aligned with Karl Rove and the RNC and has been accused of pushing for the firings of some US attorneys by at least one of the fired attorneys. Some of the attorneys believe they were fired based on their refusal to prosecute alleged cases of voter fraud.

Emails among Ohio Republican Party official Michael Magan, Coddy Johnson, then national field director of the Bush-Cheney 2004 campaign, and Timothy Griffin, reveal the men were given documents that could be used as evidence to justify widespread voter challenges if the Bush campaign needed to contest the election results. Johnson referred to the documents as a "goldmine".

The valuable documents were lists of registered voters who did not return address confirmation forms to the Ohio Board of Elections. The Republican operatives compared this list with lists of voters who requested absentee ballots. In the opinion of one of the strategists, the fact that many names appeared on both lists was evidence of voter fraud. "A bad registration card can be an accident or fraud. A bad card AND an Absentee Ballot request is a clear case of fraud," according to former Bush-Cheney campaign staffer Robert Paduchik.

Another Republican operative saw the value of the Ohio list from a media strategy perspective. According to the emails, Christopher McInerney, a RNC researcher said "... I have already tasked our IT [information technology] person with creating a match list between the Board of Elections return mail list and the Absentee Ballot request list. Jack [Christopher] thought this would be a good idea to have - to reference as part of the larger DenHerder press strategy." It is not known what the "DenHerder press strategy" refers to, but Dave DenHerder served as regional political director for the 2004 Bush campaign.

McInerney's email continues, "I can't speak to other states, but if they don't have flagged voter rolls, we run the risk of having GOP fingerprints."

Strategist Christopher Guith responded by saying "I would think we are less worried about "fingerprints" if we have decent evidence that fraudulent ballots are being cast. I think the intent is to take the Board of Elections' list and challenge absentee ballots? At that point, isn't it more important to stop absentee ballots that we have a high certainty of fraud than avoid the hit?"

McInerney's and Guith's emails have been previously disclosed.

Griffin responded, "I guess we have to make sure we have bodies. It seems like it always comes down to bodies. Why don't you ask your peeps in each state at issue if they have the resources to do this. Then, I might/can put some resources in the states that are lacking."

The emails seem to show the Republican operatives were preparing for a confrontation reminiscent of the Florida recount affair that followed the 2000 Presidential election. This exchange took place less than one month prior to the November 2004 election.

The list of questionable voters that was compiled by the Ohio Board of Elections was quite similar to the vote caging lists used by the Republican campaigners. The Board of Elections sent out voter confirmation letters to targeted registered voters. The letters required the voter to return a confirmation request or have their name removed from the voter rolls. Because the confirmation letter gave the voter 60 days to respond, a voter who failed to respond to the confirmation request would still be on the voter rolls for the primary election, but would be purged prior to the general election.

The list was apparently checked by two people identified only as "Ted" and "Evan who" made handwritten notes in one of the columns. According to their notes, they described certain parts of Cleveland where low-income and minority voters were targeted as containing "mixed use buildings" and "single family apartments." Another section said, "looks like a parking lot ... doesn't look residential."

In an interview with Truthout in May, David Iglesias, the former US attorney for New Mexico, said Pat Rogers, one of Hearne's colleagues, alleged there was widespread voter fraud in New Mexico and pressured Iglesias to bring criminal charges against some individuals. Iglesias said he had investigated those allegations tirelessly and found zero evidence to back it up. He added that, based on evidence that had surfaced thus far and "Karl Rove's obsession with voter fraud issues throughout the country," he now believes GOP operatives had wanted him to go after Democratic-funded organizations in an attempt to swing the 2006 midterm elections to Republicans.

Jason Leopold is a former Los Angeles bureau chief for Dow Jones Newswire. He has written over 2,000 stories on the California energy crisis and received the Dow Jones Journalist of the Year Award in 2001 for his coverage on the issue as well as a Project Censored award in 2004. Leopold also reported extensively on Enron's downfall and was the first journalist to land an interview with former Enron president Jeffrey Skilling following Enron's bankruptcy filing in December 2001. Leopold has appeared on CNBC and National Public Radio as an expert on energy policy and has also been the keynote speaker at more than two dozen energy industry conferences around the country.

Matt Renner is a reporter for Truthout.
============

Rove is/has been obsesed with stopping massive voter fraud, for which there is little evidence and few convictions. Repug US Attorneys' primary job/political marching order from Rove were was to go after this mythic voter fraud. If you instead went after and convicted as Repug Congressman (San Diego), you were fired.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Happened-Ohio-Documentary-Election/dp/1595580697/ref=sr_1_1/002-3404172-8517632?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185560017&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Was-2004-Presidential-Election-Stolen/dp/1583226877/ref=sr_1_2/002-3404172-8517632?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185560017&sr=8-2

[Wild Cobra]

Yep, unless we get a handle on election fraud, the democrats will win 2008 also. They know how to cheat real good.

[sabar]

Pointless thread, extrapolating on a large scale, so many people cheat for both parties that it is evened out. Everyone knows evil and lying is correlated to both parties, not one.

[Wild Cobra]

Pointless thread, extrapolating on a large scale, so many people cheat for both parties that it is evened out. Everyone knows evil and lying is correlated to both parties, not one.
I disagree. Indictments and convictions for voter fraud have democrats leading the way in cheating.

[Wild Cobra]

yet Yoni is silent when republicans are accused of voter fraud across the country... I guess that's just a coincedence.. I guess I will have to rememebr this as well.. to keep the hypocrite..I mean Yoni honest..
How many incidents of election fraud and harassment can be linked to republicans? I think the ratio is about 10 to 1 convictions. That's how bad the liberal pundits are.

Accusations are flying everywhere against republican. Have any been substantiated?

[xrayzebra]

Ah, hell, you all know photo ID is just a way to disinfranchise all
those minorities. Of course, the cash checking places don't see
it that way, do they. And if you want to fly, I don't give a damn
if you are black and white striped you better have a photo ID.
But voting is not a priority item, it only picks our leaders.

[Wild Cobra]

Ah, hell, you all know photo ID is just a way to disinfranchise all
those minorities. Of course, the cash checking places don't see
it that way, do they. And if you want to fly, I don't give a damn
if you are black and white striped you better have a photo ID.
But voting is not a priority item, it only picks our leaders.
Silly me. Here I thought they were trying ti disenfranchise the illegal voters.

[Nbadan]

Many people have military ID's, and some have ID's with incorrect info. and such. Requiring everyone to have a valid ID amounts to a poll-tax on the poor. We want more people to vote, not put up more hurdles not to vote...

[fyatuk]

Many people have military ID's, and some have ID's with incorrect info. and such. Requiring everyone to have a valid ID amounts to a poll-tax on the poor. We want more people to vote, not put up more hurdles not to vote...

The point with the IDs is just to make sure the person voting is the person registered, so the information isn't necessarily important except for the ID# and the photo and name. A good chunk of the population, like me, is only registered to vote because DPS does it for me, at least here in TX.

Would it be okay to require photo IDs with you if the states waived the fee for an ID card (what is that, like $20?)? That would eliminate the argument about it being a poll tax. The states would probably have to significantly raise the fees for drivers licenses though.

[Nbadan]

Don't you need a voter card in TX to vote? Isn't that documentation? However, I agree that there should be a more efficient way to renewing out-dated and expired ID cards....

[fyatuk]

Currently you need the voter registration card or state/military ID. The problem is that apparently it is quite easy to get a voter regisration card with faulty information. The reason people want to require a photo ID is just to be able to match the face with the voter registration card. That way voter registrations that are fradulent couldn't be used unless you get a good fradulent photo ID as well (and I believe most states have moved to tamper proof designs making them harder to forge).

I'm all for making it harder to commit voter fraud. But I can see the argument about requiring photo ID could be construed as an illegal poll tax, hence the question about getting rid of state ID processing fees and providing free photo IDs.

[Wild Cobra]

Don't you need a voter card in TX to vote? Isn't that documentation? However, I agree that there should be a more efficient way to renewing out-dated and expired ID cards....
The problem is you have liberal scum who register to vote in multiple precincts and cast multiple votes. Nobody is safeguarding the system from this happening. The democrats have more unethical people voting for them than republicans do. These unethical people take advantage of the system and cheat for their party.

Yoni mentioned the Washington state governors election. It was clearly a stolen election from everything being reported on talk radio in my area. One thing witnessed, I think in the King county office was absolutely atrocious. There were ballots found after the deadline. OK, not a big deal. However, they were found in two groups. The first group found was missing last names starting with, I think, C-D. C-D entries were later found. Where these were found was no place that they should have been sorted. The theory is a group of people got together, made up ballots for those who were registered and didn't vote. Each person took and scanned the computer records. Whoever did the C-D entries didn't get theirs in the main pot before being discovered. This should have raised all kinds of warning flags, but it didn't because the county was primarily run by democrats, who closed their eyes too all election issues that favored them.

The system needs to be protected. Liberals don’t care right now because the cheating favorites them. What happens when a different group learns how to cheat better, and disposes of the democrats?

I contend that the democrats raised such a stink in 2000 and 2004 because the were assured that they would win by groups cheating for them. Notice how they didn’t call out election fraud for the 2006 election?

One more thing I just remembered. We has a Multnomah county income tax passed by voters a few years back. The deduction was small, but really pissed off the liberals even because they ended up paying taxes to the county when getting refunds from state and federal. When it came time to vote to renew the tax, polls before the election showed overwhelming disapproval and that it would go down. Election time, it passed! We have a vote by mail system, and election workers were allowed to open the ballots I think a week early. I winder what type of hanky-panky went on?

[xrayzebra]

Currently you need the voter registration card or state/military ID. The problem is that apparently it is quite easy to get a voter regisration card with faulty information. The reason people want to require a photo ID is just to be able to match the face with the voter registration card. That way voter registrations that are fradulent couldn't be used unless you get a good fradulent photo ID as well (and I believe most states have moved to tamper proof designs making them harder to forge).

I'm all for making it harder to commit voter fraud. But I can see the argument about requiring photo ID could be construed as an illegal poll tax, hence the question about getting rid of state ID processing fees and providing free photo IDs.


I don't know what part of Texas you live in but here in
San Antonio you can pick up the phone call the voter
registration people and request a form, they will send it.
you fill it in, mail it back and whamo you get your
voter registration in the mail. No photo ID anywhere in
the process. When you vote all that is required is your
voter registration card. You do not have to produce
any other ID. The only time other ID is required is if
you do not have you voter registration card, then you
must have some other form of ID.

Now DPS requires some sort of ID before it will issue you
a license. I am not up-to-date on what type, but at one
time it could be as simple as a payroll stub if I remember
correctly.

[Yonivore]

We can argue this until the cow come home. What I'm wondering is how Democrats propose you counter the disenfranchisement caused by the type of voter fraud perpetrated in King County, Washington and Palm Beach County, Florida?

Illegal votes disenfranchise legal voters. It's a much more prevalent problem than is the types of disenfranchisement of which the Republicans are accused.

So, what's the answer, Libs?

How 'bout a FREE photo identification card? A FREE Voter ID? Would you favor that?

[boutons_]

"It's a much more prevalent problem than is the types of disenfranchisement of which the Republicans are accused."

proof?

yes, an absolutely free, national ID/photo card would solve a lot of problems. DL and passports are already effective state/federal ID cards. I don't see what the problem is with an national ID card. The Repugs and corps have already violated every last corner of personal privacy, with NO oversight. It's a myth to believe any of us have any privacy left, or that a national ID card would be invasive.

The Europeans are much less oppressed by corps and their governments are much more sensitive about protecting private info.

[fyatuk]

I don't know what part of Texas you live in but here in
San Antonio you can pick up the phone call the voter
registration people and request a form, they will send it.
you fill it in, mail it back and whamo you get your
voter registration in the mail. No photo ID anywhere in
the process. When you vote all that is required is your
voter registration card. You do not have to produce
any other ID. The only time other ID is required is if
you do not have you voter registration card, then you
must have some other form of ID.

Now DPS requires some sort of ID before it will issue you
a license. I am not up-to-date on what type, but at one
time it could be as simple as a payroll stub if I remember
correctly.

What part of this contradicts my post. Hrmm, lessee...

I said it was easy to get a VRC, even with faulty information. You agreed.

I said to vote you needed either a VRC or state or military issued photo ID. You agreed.

So exactly what is your problem with my post?

PS, I'm from San Antonio, born and raised. When I got my first ID when I was 17, a birth certificate was required. I believe they want a birth certificate and SS card now, but I'm not sure since I haven't had to worry about it.

[fyatuk]

"It's a much more prevalent problem than is the types of disenfranchisement of which the Republicans are accused."

proof?

yes, an absolutely free, national ID/photo card would solve a lot of problems. DL and passports are already effective state/federal ID cards. I don't see what the problem is with an national ID card. The Repugs and corps have already violated every last corner of personal privacy, with NO oversight. It's a myth to believe any of us have any privacy left, or that a national ID card would be invasive.

The Europeans are much less oppressed by corps and their governments are much more sensitive about protecting private info.

My problem with a national ID card is that it'd just be another in a long line of 10th amendment violations. It's idiotic to believe that a national ID would invade your privacy any more than having just about everything linked to your SS#.

[boutons_]

Quit dreaming. None of us have ANY privacy left.

[fyatuk]

Quit dreaming. None of us have ANY privacy left.

Overstatement.

But as I said to xray, what part of this contradicts my post? I didn't actually claim there was any privacy, I just said it was stupid to think a national ID card would violate privacy any further then the de facto national ID that is our SSN.

[boutons_]

"Overstatement."

the best working assumption, even before the cyber criminals crack into private and govt databases.

[fyatuk]

"Overstatement."

the best working assumption, even before the cyber criminals crack into private and govt databases.

Hey, I'm just saying there's some privacy in that the vast majority of people are not monitored in their own homes if they are not doing anything that involves outside the home. My own thoughts are private since there is no technology that can read minds.

Denying the existence of privacy in regards to us is an overstatement, even if not by much.

But yes, you have to assume you have no privacy when you are on the internet, talking on the phone, watching cable or satellite TV, etc. At the very least, whoever is at the other end of the connection is monitoring and recording at least some information about the interaction.

[boutons_]

"if they are not doing anything that involves outside the home"

Essentially nobody lives without bank accounts, without paying locate/state/federal taxes, without cash/credit cards, without driving licenses, without utility/phone bills, and an increasing majority of people surf Internet, where your searches, sites visited, time of connecion, etc, are all logged.

[fyatuk]

"if they are not doing anything that involves outside the home"

Essentially nobody lives without bank accounts, without paying locate/state/federal taxes, without cash/credit cards, without driving licenses, without utility/phone bills, and an increasing majority of people surf Internet, where your searches, sites visited, time of connecion, etc, are all logged.

Exactly right. But that is not all the information there is to us. Like I said, proclaiming ZERO privacy is an overstatement.

I've seen you complain about the Bush administration lying and exaggerating information to trigger alarmist responses in order to manipulate people into doing what they want (not in those words, but that's what you say).

However, you do the EXACT same thing on different issues. This seems to be one of them.

Banks have the information on our bank accounts, the various governments our tax information, the various utilities their information, the ISP's our surfing information (well, and the websites we visit). Everything that's not in the government's hands, and can be identified to us, the government has to file a court approved request for (for the most part). No one else can ever get access to all the information. So while all that information is indeed logged, most of it is not in a useful format.

And this is quite a bit off topic ;)

[boutons_]

The amount of information on anybody held in commercial and govt databases EFFECTIVELY means you have ZERO privacy.

That your thoughts are private is a silly counter-point.

Just where am I exaggerating?

My point is that people who claim a federal photo ID would be a violation of privacy are naive.

[fyatuk]

It's not a silly counterpoint, and I did not restrict it to thoughts. You said I have no privacy, yet I do. By definition that makes you wrong. You can say I have almost no privacy, and I won't argue with you because that is a valid argument. If you truly believe that my thoughts and what I do in my house when I shun the outside world (such as reading, cooking, eating, talking with friends and family) are "silly" or unimportant, then I truly feel sorry for you since you have obviously lost sight of what IS important.

Like I said, most of the information that is recorded is done so in a rudimentary fashion, and is divided into so many different databases it's completely useless unless the information is put together under a court order. The information is ineffective in truly violating my privacy under any other circumstances.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's not a silly counterpoint, and I did not restrict it to thoughts. You said I have no privacy, yet I do. By definition that makes you wrong. You can say I have almost no privacy, and I won't argue with you because that is a valid argument. If you truly believe that my thoughts and what I do in my house when I shun the outside world (such as reading, cooking, eating, talking with friends and family) are "silly" or unimportant, then I truly feel sorry for you since you have obviously lost sight of what IS important.

Like I said, most of the information that is recorded is done so in a rudimentary fashion, and is divided into so many different databases it's completely useless unless the information is put together under a court order. The information is ineffective in truly violating my privacy under any other circumstances.


I don't trust any administration with the ability to spy on it's own citizens without any oversight. Most of the programs that deal with data mining are a necessary evil however some type of oversight is mandatory. Most of the apologists think that the criticism of this administration's unchecked powers explosion is a 'Bush' problem. It's not. If these same folks would just take Bush out of the equation I would hope they would see it like the majority of America does. My biggest , and there are many, problem with Bush is his need to proceed without any oversight. Someone needs to know what you are doing and making sure that it is done in an ethical and legal manner.

[spurster]

I am for photo IDs, provided that they are free (so no poll tax) and that there are no irrevelant barriers. For example, getting anything done at a license bureau in Bexar County is a major hassle especially compared to any neighboring county. I think Georgia tried to put in an ID requirement in place, but made it much for difficult for urban citizens.

[fyatuk]

I don't trust any administration with the ability to spy on it's own citizens without any oversight. Most of the programs that deal with data mining are a necessary evil however some type of oversight is mandatory. Most of the apologists think that the criticism of this administration's unchecked powers explosion is a 'Bush' problem. It's not. If these same folks would just take Bush out of the equation I would hope they would see it like the majority of America does. My biggest , and there are many, problem with Bush is his need to proceed without any oversight. Someone needs to know what you are doing and making sure that it is done in an ethical and legal manner.

Well, you can blame Congress for the domestic wiretapping program, since it actually was authorized within the PATRIOT Act that was overwhelmingly passed that first time. Oversight is usually a good thing, but the current Democrat congress is witch hunting, not trying to provide oversight.

But yeah, this administration definitely has gone way overboard. I liked a great deal of Bush's first term, and some of his goals for his second term, but this second term has turned into an abyssal disaster. Both Democrats and Republicans in the government have gone extremely overboard with the "I'm right, you're wrong" rhetoric, so I don't really expect it to get any better over the next 6 years. Especially when both parties seem to be on the verge of collapse due to severe infighting.


I am for photo IDs, provided that they are free (so no poll tax) and that there are no irrevelant barriers. For example, getting anything done at a license bureau in Bexar County is a major hassle especially compared to any neighboring county. I think Georgia tried to put in an ID requirement in place, but made it much for difficult for urban citizens.

No doubt that would seriously need to be improved for urban areas if free ID cards were to be issued and required to cast ballots. Especially if they are going to make people show up to take driving tests regularly to keep their DLs.