US Citizens choosing mexican health care over US

[nsrammstein]

When Carrollton resident Brian Woods needed laser eye surgery last year, he scrutinized options in North Texas for the best deal.

McAllen resident Cesar Vega was concerned about the long wait he faced to treat his broken leg after a motorcycle accident during the weekend leading into the July 4 holiday.

Both ended up in Monterrey, Mexico. Traditionally, the city affluent residents have traveled to Dallas, Houston or San Antonio for their medical needs.

"All around I was very impressed, and the experience surpassed any expectation I had," Mr. Woods said. "I could have been in Zurich, Switzerland, but it was Mexico. I found the care to be top quality, what you would expect at a U.S. hospital and more."

Like vacations in sparkling Cancún or Cabo San Lucas, health care in Mexico is becoming high-quality, cheap and convenient, advocates say. As more Americans go without heath insurance or feel the pinch of managed care, some are making a run for the border for treatment ranging from routine care to live-saving procedures.

Two North Texas-based hospital chains, Christus Health of Irving and International Hospital Corp. of Dallas, are tapping into a need and an opportunity by providing in their hospitals in Mexico what their executives say are the best of both worlds – U.S.-quality health care and relatively low Mexican prices.

"Our goal is to have the safest hospitals in the international market," said Cliff Orme, CEO of International Hospital Corp. "We're implementing U.S. standards into these hospitals so you won't notice the difference going to a hospital in Dallas than one in a Latin American country."

Some experts, including Peter Maddox of Christus Health, see Mexico as an answer to the complex question of how to treat aging and underinsured Americans at a time when the retirement of baby boomers will further tax the U.S. health care system. An estimated 43 million Americans, about 15 percent of the population, are uninsured, according to a Census Bureau study.

"Our country will go broke unless we find a health care alternative," said Mr. Maddox, Christus' senior vice president for business, strategy and corporate development. "Mexico is a wonderful alternative with incredible potential."


A new kind of tourist

Indeed, Mexico is becoming a top destination for the multibillion-dollar "medical tourism" industry, joining countries including India, Thailand, Singapore and Malaysia. Experts estimate as many as 150,000 Americans travel abroad every year for lower-cost medical care.

Although care in Mexico may not be as inexpensive as care in some Asian nations, the proximity to the U.S. is a big advantage to patients. Some U.S. companies are now sending employees to Mexico for their annual checkups.

Underscoring the trend, Mexican state governments are spending money to refurbish communities near these hospitals, hoping visiting patients will stay there while receiving medical care or even move there permanently. Such is the case in Santa Eulalia, Chihuahua, and Villa de Santiago, near Monterrey.

"We think that Villa de Santiago could also be an area for the retirees from the United States," said Alejandro Paez Aragón, secretary of economic development for the state of Nuevo León. "Our aim is to turn Monterrey into one of the world's medical tourism leaders in the next five to 10 years, and we're well on our way."

David Warner, a health researcher at the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin, said the hospitals run by U.S. companies are primarily for Mexicans, but they also hope to attract medical tourism, Americans without insurance and Mexicans living in the U.S. "And they'd like to get some U.S. insurers to cover them," he added.

But Mexico faces serious challenges in trying to become a world leader in the medical tourism industry. A turf war among drug traffickers is keeping some tourists away. Monterrey, in particular, has seen a surge of drug-related killings in recent months.

"Their plans aren't worth a thing if it's not safe to come here," said Luis Moreno, U.S. consul general in Monterrey.

And Dr. Warner, the UT health researcher, said that surveys done by his students show that many Americans are pleased with the "tender loving care" they received in Mexico, but others have found services to be substandard.

Nonetheless, over the next 10 years, Christus Muguerza, a partnership of Christus Health and Monterrey-based Muguerza, has identified 40 communities along the U.S.-Mexico border where it plans to expand. And International Hospital Corp. is finishing a new hospital in Puebla, near Mexico City.

"I have patients coming here from Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio," said Michael Tarabay, director International Hospital Corp.'s Santa Engracia hospital in Monterrey. "Whether you leave from Dallas, San Antonio, Houston or Austin, it's about an hour plane ride, a 20-minute taxi ride, and you're here."


Cheaper care

Mr. Orme, International's CEO, said that his company's hospitals served "several hundred" American clients last year and that Santa Engracia has served about 300 so far this year.

Mexico is on average 40 percent cheaper for basic surgical procedures, Mr. Warner and officials for both hospital companies said.

A bill in the Texas Legislature sponsored this year by Sen. Eddie Lucio Jr., D-Brownsville, would have allowed U.S.-based insurers to cover health services in Mexico with the goal of making policies affordable for uninsured groups like the working poor. There was also a House version of the bill.

Coverage would have been limited to Texans who live within 75 miles of the border. The bill did not get out of committee.

"We have a crisis right now," Mr. Lucio said in an e-mail. "There are simply too many residents in Texas lacking health care coverage. Cross-border health plans present an opportunity to increase our rates of private health insurance coverage, particularly in an area of high poverty and greatest need."

Cross-border health insurance plans typically cost 40 percent less than traditional policies, he said.

"Cross-border health plans have been effective in California, and the primary concern for me is how we can address the lack of health care coverage along the border," he said.

For now, most Americans coming to Mexico for health care are considered "medical refugees," as in the case of Mr. Woods, 43, a network engineer. He visited a Christus Muguerza hospital in Monterrey last Christmas and stayed with his wife's relatives there. He had looked into getting laser eye surgery close to home, but the cost made that impossible, he said. U.S. doctors wanted to charge him $4,000, Mr. Woods said, but he paid $1,500 in Mexico.

"People were very cordial, warm," Mr. Woods said of the experience. "They treated me very well, and I wouldn't hesitate returning for other medical procedures."

Mr. Vega's wife, Adriana, said the couple had a similar experience.

She frantically checked South Texas hospitals after her husband's motorcycle accident, but was told hospitals were short-staffed before the holiday weekend. When Mr. Vega was examined, he was told he would have to wait more than 72 hours for treatment for his broken leg, she said.

The exam alone cost $1,000, she said.

Furious, Ms. Vega told her husband, "We're going to Monterrey."

Once there, he was immediately admitted and operated on, she said. "I drove back to Texas two days later."

The couple paid about $4,000 – one-third of what she was told the treatment would cost in Texas.

"I thought the quality was the same as any U.S. hospital," she said. "What really stood apart, however, was the service. The Mexicans were much more cordial, warmer. Here in the U.S., everyone is worried about being sued, especially doctors. No one seems to smile."


Impossible in the U.S.

Christus Murguerza's specialties include cardiology, orthopedics, oncology, transplants and plastic surgery. Its hospitals in Monterrey boast state-of-the-art telemedicine systems, which allow doctors to monitor and follow up with patients anywhere in the world in hospitals that share this technology.

International Hospital Corp.'s Santa Engracia hospital is in an upscale neighborhood, near hotels that give a preferential rate to hospital patients.

In the hospital itself, a private room looks more like a hotel suite, with a separate living room, two televisions and space for an entire family for $300 per night – something unthinkable in the United States, said hospital director Mr. Tarabay, who has managed U.S. hospitals.

About 90 percent of Santa Engracia patients are well-off or well-insured Mexicans, many of whom used to go to Texas for top-notch health care. Mr. Moreno, the U.S. consul in Monterrey, said he bought a home for retirement in San Antonio, in part to be close to the medical facilities in Monterrey, a four-hour drive away.

"They have a cultural thing here in Mexico where you're not treated like a number," said Mr. Moreno. "Without a doubt, these are the best medical facilities that I've ever seen in my foreign-service career."

[boutons_]

Medical tourism is pretty big business. Many websites offering packages to India, central/south America. Quite a few Americans w/o dental coverage but need major dental are driving over to MX. The doctors have mostly been trained in US and are using the same equipment found in US hospitals.

Of course, (US) drugs are a lot cheaper in Canada. US citzens, aka suckers, subsidize Big Pharma that turns around and charges lower prices for the same drugs to "single buyer" national health orgs in Canada, Europe, Japan.

[johnsmith]

I knew a lady that went to Mexico to get her stomach stapled (the bypass thing), because it's cheaper there.

She fucking died.

[Extra Stout]

Monterrey is rapidly approaching first-world status as a city. Its per capita income (purchasing power parity) is nearly 75% that of San Antonio's, its poverty rate of 17% is exactly the same as San Antonio's, and the dollar-peso exchange rate means that your dollar goes 50-60% further there. After years of regiomontanos making the trip up to San Antonio and points beyond for tourism and shopping, perhaps now is the time to return the favor.

It does have drug-related crime, though lower than levels in major Texas cities. The crime rate is being exaggerated by the U.S. government in order to further its own purposes, one being to avoid having Americans from places like Detroit and New Orleans visit there and say, "How the f*** is it that the crime rate, standard of living, and quality of services in f***ing Mexico are better than where I live??!!"

Of greater dissuasion are the oppressive, Houston-like climate and mountain-trapped air pollution.

[Extra Stout]

I knew a lady that went to Mexico to get her stomach stapled (the bypass thing), because it's cheaper there.

She fucking died.
The death rate in the U.S. from that surgery is 5%.

[johnsmith]

The death rate in the U.S. from that surgery is 5%.


Wow.

And I mean that in a "holy shit" type of way.

I can't believe how many people opt for that then.

[ploto]

No thank you.

[nsrammstein]

I've been to a hospital in Monterrey because I was down there for vacation with a couple of friends and I fractured my arm in 2 places, they took me to the hopital and we didn't have to wait more than 5 minutes! they just asked me what was wrong and they told me to go in and they attended me. The hospital I went to made me feel like I was in a swiss hospital, they are really nice.

[peewee's lovechild]

Monterrey is rapidly approaching first-world status as a city. Its per capita income (purchasing power parity) is nearly 75% that of San Antonio's, its poverty rate of 17% is exactly the same as San Antonio's, and the dollar-peso exchange rate means that your dollar goes 50-60% further there. After years of regiomontanos making the trip up to San Antonio and points beyond for tourism and shopping, perhaps now is the time to return the favor.

It does have drug-related crime, though lower than levels in major Texas cities. The crime rate is being exaggerated by the U.S. government in order to further its own purposes, one being to avoid having Americans from places like Detroit and New Orleans visit there and say, "How the f*** is it that the crime rate, standard of living, and quality of services in f***ing Mexico are better than where I live??!!"

Of greater dissuasion are the oppressive, Houston-like climate and mountain-trapped air pollution.

Dude, have you ever been to Monterrey??

The fucking crime there is unbelievable.
I've seen the inside of a cell there because a cop set us up with a cocaine charge. $120 later, I was out.

I go there all the time. I have friends and family there. It's a great city, but it's far from being less violent than the major cities in Texas.

I'd say it's pretty much on par with Houston.

[exstatic]

Wow.

And I mean that in a "holy shit" type of way.

I can't believe how many people opt for that then.
They only do it as a last resort. Chances are that someone who is that morbidly obese has a death percentage way higher than 5% over the next 2-3 years anyway. They don't do this surgery of you are 50-75 lbs overweight. You have to be like multiples of your normal body weight.

[ObiwanGinobili]

just about everyone i know will ONLY go to Mexico when it comes to dental work etc.
And I know a woman who went for some reconstructive surgery.. came out great.

[Extra Stout]

Dude, have you ever been to Monterrey??

The fucking crime there is unbelievable.
I've seen the inside of a cell there because a cop set us up with a cocaine charge. $120 later, I was out.

I go there all the time. I have friends and family there. It's a great city, but it's far from being less violent than the major cities in Texas.

I'd say it's pretty much on par with Houston.
My information was about five years out of date. Monterrey currently is in the middle of an enormous drug war with judges and police chiefs getting killed. The Mexican drug lords get their weapons at U.S. gun shows.

[TDMVPDPOY]

with money everything is fast :D

[peewee's lovechild]

My information was about five years out of date. Monterrey currently is in the middle of an enormous drug war with judges and police chiefs getting killed. The Mexican drug lords get their weapons at U.S. gun shows.

Gotta love the good ole U.S. of A.

We supply the drug addicts to help their business, and we supply the weapons to keep them nice and safe.

Then we bitch that our borders aren't safe.

[AlamoSpursFan]

I've been to a hospital in Monterrey because I was down there for vacation with a couple of friends and I fractured my arm in 2 places, they took me to the hopital and we didn't have to wait more than 5 minutes!

Ok, if nobody else will do it, I will...

If the Mexicans currently clogging up our emergency rooms here were back home where they belong, you'd no doubt have had to wait longer than 5 minutes...

:lol

[peewee's lovechild]

Ok, if nobody else will do it, I will...

If the Mexicans currently clogging up our emergency rooms here were back home where they belong, you'd no doubt have had to wait longer than 5 minutes...

:lol

You're a fucking idiot.

First of all, I've been to several hospitals where it's chock full of white people. And, they clog up the ERs because they have a rash or the fucking cold.

WTF???

Secondly, okay . . . send all the Mexicans back. You think that will provide a solution?? It will only get filled with another minority for you to bitch at!!!

Fuck you.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Truth hurts, eh load of Reubens?

Visit an emergency room, ANY emergency room and get back to me, moron.

Go sit for 4 hours in a waiting room full of no insurance having sniffling illegal immigrants with a fully insured 7 year old American fucking citizen with a 103 degree fever and tell me what a fucking idiot I am.

Suck my dick, fuckwad.

[peewee's lovechild]

Truth hurts, eh load of Reubens?

Visit an emergency room, ANY emergency room and get back to me, moron.

Go sit for 4 hours in a waiting room full of no insurance having sniffling illegal immigrants with a fully insured 7 year old American fucking citizen with a 103 degree fever and tell me what a fucking idiot I am.

Suck my dick, fuckwad.

Try eating any fruit sold in this country with out the thought that the majority of these "mexicans" picked them for you while getting paid $1 an hour.

Fuck you.

If you have insurance, what the fuck are you crying about??

Besides, you want to bitch about them over taking American ERs??
How about the fact that America over took their lands because of a piece of shit philosophy called "Manifest Destiny".

Shut the fuck up with your bitchy whining!!

If you don't like the fact that there's "Mexicans", move to an all white city and bitch about the white-trash filling up the ERs.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Try eating any fruit sold in this country with out the thought that the majority of these "mexicans" picked them for you while getting paid $1 an hour.

Not my problem.


Fuck you.

Not even on your birthday.


If you have insurance, what the fuck are you crying about??

The fact that I sat in the AMERICAN ER of an AMERICAN hospital for FOUR FUCKING AMERICAN HOURS on an AMERICAN Saturday evening with my suffering, crying, burning up AMERICAN daughter after giving the AMERICAN lady behind the AMERICAN GODDAMN check in desk my AMERICAN insurance information (read: they knew they were actually going to get paid for helping my AMERICAN daughter get over her sickness) while a seemingly endless stream of Spanish speaking people in no apparent immediate distress were called back to see the doctors. Go fuck yourself and every Julio who looks like you if that is a problem for you, jerky.


Besides, you want to bitch about them over taking American ERs??
How about the fact that America over took their lands because of a piece of shit philosophy called "Manifest Destiny".

To the victors go the spoils, prick.


Shut the fuck up with your bitchy whining!!

If you don't like the fact that there's "Mexicans", move to an all white city and bitch about the white-trash filling up the ERs.

Eat me.

[T Park]

ah gotta love the guilty america hating pricks.

[AlamoSpursFan]

And what's with quotating the word Mexican? Are you doubting the fact that these people come from Mexico?

I don't have a problem with them personally, just the fact that when I went with my payment to a for-profit hospital seeking professional help, they were mooching up the process and keeping my daughter from getting the treatment I pay every week for.

Sounds to me like some vato has a guilty conscience about something...

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The bright side of this seemingly interesting news thread turning into a flamewar is that we seem to have a new rivalry brewing on ST, one that involves a relatively new poster and a longtime poster, but who has never really been pushed into the proverbial ring that much.

Congrats, guys. There's some sandwiches and beer in the back of the clubhouse.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Cervezas y tortas? Donde?

:lol

[peewee's lovechild]

Not my problem.



You're right.
Yet, you do a good job bitching about your problems to us.




The fact that I sat in the AMERICAN ER of an AMERICAN hospital for FOUR FUCKING AMERICAN HOURS on an AMERICAN Saturday evening with my suffering, crying, burning up AMERICAN daughter after giving the AMERICAN lady behind the AMERICAN GODDAMN check in desk my AMERICAN insurance information (read: they knew they were actually going to get paid for helping my AMERICAN daughter get over her sickness) while a seemingly endless stream of Spanish speaking people in no apparent immediate distress were called back to see the doctors. Go fuck yourself and every Julio who looks like you if that is a problem for you, jerky.



Not my problem.
(sound familiar)

(jerky??)



To the victors go the spoils, prick.


Yea, you would say something like that.
But, it doesn't matter because it seems that they're taking back what was once theirs.

And, that scares you, doesn't it.



Eat me.

Nah, that's okay . . . I'm not a fag.
But, I'm sure you can find a couple that post here.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Repeat after me:

"I got nothing, jerky."

:lol

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/34/200px-Jerky_Boys-Jerky_Boys.jpg

(Editor's note: I'm assuming they don't have quality prank call humor in your native Mexico...)

:lmao

[peewee's lovechild]

And what's with quotating the word Mexican? Are you doubting the fact that these people come from Mexico?

I don't have a problem with them personally, just the fact that when I went with my payment to a for-profit hospital seeking professional help, they were mooching up the process and keeping my daughter from getting the treatment I pay every week for.

Sounds to me like some vato has a guilty conscience about something...

No, of course you don't have a problem with them, as long as they cut your grass for $5, take care of your kids for $10 a week, or harvest your food for $1 a day.

No, you don't have a single problem with that.
It's just that when they need help that your ass gets tighter than before you first started having anal sex.

And, this Vato has no guilty conscience whatsoever . . . I sleep well at night. However, you probably need to go to confession to talk to that priest that's ass fucking you about the hatred you have for "the little brown people."

[peewee's lovechild]

Repeat after me:

"I got nothing, jerky."


:lol

Sure.

That was deep and philisophical on so many levels . . .

[J.T.]

Gotta love the good ole U.S. of A.

We supply the drug addicts to help their business, and we supply the weapons to keep them nice and safe.

Then we bitch that our borders aren't safe.

Or the government could drop weed and coke to lower schedules so purchasing, distributing and possessing them wouldn't put you in the slammer...

Seriously, the government is so fucking whack here I'm surprised they haven't legalized half of the drugs on schedule I and II just so they can fucking monopolize the industry and tax the fuck out of everyone.

And all of you losers who get on people's case about criticizing the government need to go get fucking laid or some shit. If you can't see that America has gone from a country founded to get away from taxation and oppressive government only to 200+ years later be a fucking mirror image of what they went to war to escape from, then you need to get your head checked.

We're a $1.50 gas spike away from another civil war.

[AlamoSpursFan]

No, of course you don't have a problem with them, as long as they cut your grass for $5, take care of your kids for $10 a week, or harvest your food for $1 a day.

No, you don't have a single problem with that.
It's just that when they need help that your ass gets tighter than before you first started having anal sex.

And, this Vato has no guilty conscience whatsoever . . . I sleep well at night. However, you probably need to go to confession to talk to that priest that's ass fucking you about the hatred you have for "the little brown people."

I mow my own grass, I take care of my own kid, and I don't eat shitty $1 a day food.

And that's some anal fixation you have there. I'm not Catholic, but aren't most Mexicans? Just wondering...

:lol

[J.T.]

I'm glad I support the drug market with my excessive pot use.

Fuck me sideways if some old, fat, rich ass white man wipes his ass with my money.

[peewee's lovechild]

I mow my own grass, I take care of my own kid, and I don't eat shitty $1 a day food.

You're a credit to your race.



And that's some anal fixation you have there. I'm not Catholic, but aren't most Mexicans? Just wondering...

:lol

You're the one who wants me to bite you.

So, I guess your the giver not the taker in your gay relationships?

[peewee's lovechild]

Or the government could drop weed and coke to lower schedules so purchasing, distributing and possessing them wouldn't put you in the slammer...

Seriously, the government is so fucking whack here I'm surprised they haven't legalized half of the drugs on schedule I and II just so they can fucking monopolize the industry and tax the fuck out of everyone.

And all of you losers who get on people's case about criticizing the government need to go get fucking laid or some shit. If you can't see that America has gone from a country founded to get away from taxation and oppressive government only to 200+ years later be a fucking mirror image of what they went to war to escape from, then you need to get your head checked.

We're a $1.50 gas spike away from another civil war.

No shit, we're being taxed up the ass for every little thing. And, once they figure out that they could make a shit load of money taxing pot . . . they're going to legalize the mother fucker.

Gas is a mother fucking joke!! I can't believe people are not making a bigger fuss about this.

Ohhh, but get some Mexicans in an ER and all hell breaks loose.

[peewee's lovechild]

I'm glad I support the drug market with my excessive pot use.

Fuck me sideways if some old, fat, rich ass white man wipes his ass with my money.

Amen to that.

[AlamoSpursFan]

:lmao

I'm more man than you'll ever be, and more woman than you'll ever have, puto.

:lmao

[AlamoSpursFan]

This is too much fun, but I'm outta beer.

Time for a b-double e-double r-u-n.

Out.

[Extra Stout]

Besides, you want to bitch about them over taking American ERs??
How about the fact that America over took their lands because of a piece of shit philosophy called "Manifest Destiny".

Shut the fuck up with your bitchy whining!!
I know Hispanics love to bring that up, except that Mexico never successfully settled its claims in most of that territory. This is why the Mexican government invited Anglos to settle Texas in the first place. Mexican farmers were not interested in venturing to the arid north amidst hostile Indian tribes.

If somebody has the right to be pissed off about what transpired, it would be the Navajos, the Pueblos, the Apaches, and the Utes.

[peewee's lovechild]

:lmao

I'm more man than you'll ever be, and more woman than you'll ever have, puto.

:lmao

So, you're a hermaphodite.

Interesting.

**In case you don't know what a hermaphodite is (because of the lack of an actual education) it would be a she-male**

You should really go into porn as a she-male star. You could make a shit load of money. There are all sorts of she-male loving fags in the country. You'll be a hit in San Fransico.

I can see it now: AlamoSpursFan: She-Male PornStar.

You'll be famous, and you'll never have to worry about Mexicans ever again.

[peewee's lovechild]

I know Hispanics love to bring that up, except that Mexico never successfully settled its claims in most of that territory. This is why the Mexican government invited Anglos to settle Texas in the first place. Mexican farmers were not interested in venturing to the arid north amidst hostile Indian tribes.

If somebody has the right to be pissed off about what transpired, it would be the Navajos, the Pueblos, the Apaches, and the Utes.

I absolutely agree.
The Natives are the only people who have a REAL reason to bitch.

But, your previous point about Mexico never successfully settling claims in their territory. How do you think that even makes sense??

So, using your rationale, all territories owned by the U.S. that are not currently settled are open for the taking??

I can claim territory for myself as long as the territory is not settled??

[Extra Stout]

If they ever took all the Mexicans out of Houston, I don't know who would do the work. One Mexican does the work of two rednecks.

I am thankful for San Antonio and the Valley, I must admit. They serve as an immigrant filter. All the lazy people just looking to get on the government dole stop there, while further north we get all the freaking entrepreneurs.

[J.T.]

No shit, we're being taxed up the ass for every little thing. And, once they figure out that they could make a shit load of money taxing pot . . . they're going to legalize the mother fucker.

Gas is a mother fucking joke!! I can't believe people are not making a bigger fuss about this.

Ohhh, but get some Mexicans in an ER and all hell breaks loose.

Taxation in the US is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen. I don't go to other countries, don't know about their tax situations, and obviously don't give a shit otherwise I'd live in another country and not here, but we're really close to people killing each other for gas...or at least robbing people for their money to buy gas.

I give it another year before local stores can't sell cigarettes because when I go to buy an ounce from my pot dealer, I'm going to be buying black market smokes from him too.

MP3 sharing was just the beginning. Then downloading movies. I love how iTunes tries to act like they're doing the recording industry a favor. I haven't bought a legit CD since I was 12. I've bought a few DVDs since DVD burning became affordable, but my 4 binders full of copied DVDs far outweighs the shelf of DVDs in my living room that isn't even fucking filled yet.

I don't see why anyone is surprised about people going to Mexico for healthcare. America is just out to rob you. Old, fat, rich guys wanting to wipe their ass with your money. Welcome to America, where we shit on you and take your money.

[Extra Stout]

I absolutely agree.
The Natives are the only people who have a REAL reason to bitch.

But, your previous point about Mexico never successfully settling claims in their territory. How do you think that even makes sense??

So, using your rationale, all territories owned by the U.S. that are not currently settled are open for the taking??

I claim territory for myself as long as the territory is not settled??
The United States controls all of the territory it claims. If you tried to set up the Republic of My Brown Ass somewhere in the Chihuahuan desert northwest of Del Rio, you would not get very far.

The same could not be said of the Mexican government with regard to its northern territories. Their control was tenuous to the degree it existed at all. They could not get many towns established north of the tropics. San Antonio was a tiny village of Franciscan missions. Monterrey was an outpost. Santa Fe was a lonely colonial town that survived only because the Pueblo were peaceful. Alta California was a collection of missions running along the coast. They could not defend their settlers effectively against Indian incursions. The native tribes controlled the territory. The idea that it really was Mexican territory was just lines on a map.

You can contrast that with Anglo settlement of the same lands. Within two years of the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, settlers were pouring westward.

[Extra Stout]

Taxation in the US is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen. I don't go to other countries, don't know about their tax situations, and obviously don't give a shit otherwise I'd live in another country and not here, but we're really close to people killing each other for gas...or at least robbing people for their money to buy gas.

I give it another year before local stores can't sell cigarettes because when I go to buy an ounce from my pot dealer, I'm going to be buying black market smokes from him too.

MP3 sharing was just the beginning. Then downloading movies. I love how iTunes tries to act like they're doing the recording industry a favor. I haven't bought a legit CD since I was 12. I've bought a few DVDs since DVD burning became affordable, but my 4 binders full of copied DVDs far outweighs the shelf of DVDs in my living room that isn't even fucking filled yet.

I don't see why anyone is surprised about people going to Mexico for healthcare. America is just out to rob you. Old, fat, rich guys wanting to wipe their ass with your money. Welcome to America, where we shit on you and take your money.
Gas in other countries runs between 5 and 8 dollars a gallon. They drive smaller cars. Of course, they can fit in smaller cars because unlike Americans they aren't all 300-lb tubs of lard.

But I get your point about the rich in this country. The old-money fat cats have abandoned all pretense of even appearing to play above-board. They are in straight bend-the-middle-class-over-and-rape-them-for-all-you-can-get mode. Take Governor Perry. He basically is running state government on behalf of Cintas. This is now a country of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.

The last time this happened was in the late 1800's. It kept on happening until people were working 100-hour weeks, their kids were being forced to work 100-hour weeks, and they made barely enough income to eat. They lived in filthy company tenements, and the company swindled them into debt so far they basically became indentured servants.

That regime ended when workers began killing wealthy people. One even killed President McKinley. Then the wealthy classes got scared into reforms. When the Depression happened, the wealthy families thought they could get their revenge on the middle and working classes, but then FDR got elected. The wealthy folks tried to overthrow FDR and institute a fascist state, but their coup failed.

Obviously, we aren't as bad off as the working classes were 100 years ago, but I think we'll start shedding blood again long before it gets to that point.

[peewee's lovechild]

The United States controls all of the territory it claims. If you tried to set up the Republic of My Brown Ass somewhere in the Chihuahuan desert northwest of Del Rio, you would not get very far.

The same could not be said of the Mexican government with regard to its northern territories. Their control was tenuous to the degree it existed at all. They could not get many towns established north of the tropics. San Antonio was a tiny village of Franciscan missions. Monterrey was an outpost. Santa Fe was a lonely colonial town that survived only because the Pueblo were peaceful. Alta California was a collection of missions running along the coast. They could not defend their settlers effectively against Indian incursions. The native tribes controlled the territory. The idea that it really was Mexican territory was just lines on a map.

You can contrast that with Anglo settlement of the same lands. Within two years of the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, settlers were pouring westward.

San Antonio a tiny village of Franciscan missions????
What are you talking about???

San Antonio was the capital city of Coahuila y Tejas, a Mexican state that had a range of modern day Texas to the modern day state of Coahuila in Mexico. It also included part of modern day Nuevo Leon.

San Antonio was integral for Mexico, everything above that was a buffer zone.

As for Monterrey just being an outpost, you are very wrong. As a matter of fact, that's where the American forces had the most trouble during the Mexican-American War.

But, going back to lines on a map . . . what you're saying is that since Mexico couldn't defend it's borders, that was justification enough to take their territories?

And, it's never just lines on a map. Never. Nations have fought to the death over lines on a map.

That holds no water.

[Extra Stout]

San Antonio a tiny village of Franciscan missions????
What are you talking about???

San Antonio was the capital city of Coahuila y Tejas, a Mexican state that had a range of modern day Texas to the modern day state of Coahuila in Mexico. It also included part of modern day Nuevo Leon.

San Antonio was integral for Mexico, everything above that was a buffer zone.

As for Monterrey just being an outpost, you are very wrong. As a matter of fact, that's where the American forces had the most trouble during the Mexican-American War.

But, going back to lines on a map . . . what you're saying is that since Mexico couldn't defend it's borders, that was justification enough to take their territories?

And, it's never just lines on a map. Never. Nations have fought to the death over lines on a map.

That holds no water.
San Antonio had a population of 600 in 1835. It was a frontier village. It was important because it was the northernmost settlement that was secure enough to maintain trade with the United States.

It was never the capital of Coahuila y Tejas. That state had capitals at Saltillo and Monclova. San Antonio was the capital of the Bexar district.

While the Mexican Army fought admirably at Monterrey, the city itself only had a population of hundreds, and even then was subject to devastating Indian raids, never mind the Americans.

Overall, a few thousand people lived in Mexico's northern reaches, as opposed to seven or eight million in the central part of the country.

What I am saying is not that the U.S. was justified in conquering what are now its southwestern territories, but that your indignation over Mexico's being deprived of its unsettled northern claims is quite silly and a bit hypocritical, since the land was occupied primarily by the native tribes, who had lived there continuously for centuries, rather than Mexican citizens. The Mexican claims were as unjustifiable, colonialist, and racist as the American ones.

So unless your family happens to be one of few hundred dispossessed landowner families who got screwed over when the Americans came to town, then your ancestors had no legitimate claim to Texas, and your point about these Mexican immigrants allegedly taking over something that rightfully belongs to them is a load of crap, unless you are loyal to the government of Mexico.

Mexican immigrants are welcomed because they are good people who work their asses off to get ahead (I grew up in San Antonio, and am well aware it is the exception to that rule), not because they have some "claim" to the land.

[Peter]

The death rate in the U.S. from that surgery is 5%.

I'm assuming that's due to surgical errors? Otherwise, its not that surprising given that a certain number of patients will be a in a fragile enough state that they can't make it through surgery.

[Extra Stout]

I'm assuming that's due to surgical errors? Otherwise, its not that surprising given that a certain number of patients will be a in a fragile enough state that they can't make it through surgery.
It is a very dangerous surgery with high risk of infection.

[Sec24Row7]

Wow lots of angry people on this thread.

[J.T.]

Wow lots of angry people on this thread.

Well, the world is an angry place. The problem with the world is that theres no way to please every single person.

[J.T.]

But I get your point about the rich in this country. The old-money fat cats have abandoned all pretense of even appearing to play above-board. They are in straight bend-the-middle-class-over-and-rape-them-for-all-you-can-get mode. Take Governor Perry. He basically is running state government on behalf of Cintas. This is now a country of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.

I like your take on this, it's a little more sane than mine. But that's exactly how it is. One thing that's pretty current is the new min wage "hike" that began last week. I believe it just bumped up to $5.85 from $5.15. Min wage earners will enjoy that increase on their first paycheck. Until they realize they probably aren't even earning $50 more per check. The failure of minimum wage is that, when it first was passed, it wasn't passed with relation to the value of a dollar increasing. Min wage should be between $9 and $11 right now in order for the people who earn it to have a fair standard of living.

The rich get richer, and the poor stay poor. America hates the little guy.

[Peter]

Gas in other countries runs between 5 and 8 dollars a gallon. They drive smaller cars. Of course, they can fit in smaller cars because unlike Americans they aren't all 300-lb tubs of lard.

But I get your point about the rich in this country. The old-money fat cats have abandoned all pretense of even appearing to play above-board. They are in straight bend-the-middle-class-over-and-rape-them-for-all-you-can-get mode. Take Governor Perry. He basically is running state government on behalf of Cintas. This is now a country of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.

The last time this happened was in the late 1800's. It kept on happening until people were working 100-hour weeks, their kids were being forced to work 100-hour weeks, and they made barely enough income to eat. They lived in filthy company tenements, and the company swindled them into debt so far they basically became indentured servants.

That regime ended when workers began killing wealthy people. One even killed President McKinley. Then the wealthy classes got scared into reforms. When the Depression happened, the wealthy families thought they could get their revenge on the middle and working classes, but then FDR got elected. The wealthy folks tried to overthrow FDR and institute a fascist state, but their coup failed.

Obviously, we aren't as bad off as the working classes were 100 years ago, but I think we'll start shedding blood again long before it gets to that point.

One problem is that the American dream has morphed into the American entitlement, that is, the guarantee that every year you are able to afford more shit than last year. Restraint is unheard of. Americans expect that they will succeed economically. And they spend like it.

When they don't get what they want, they expect their representatives to take care of it for them. Need more? We'll cut the tax rates on the middle class and jack up spending on their favorite handouts. Is it any surprise that the federal government currently spends beyond its means seemingly without concern about how tomorrow's bills will be paid when so many households do likewise?

I'm not ready to lay blame for this at the feet of the politicians. In the end, they give the masses what they want. Of course you will have to work longer and harder to tread economic water when you can't reign in your own spending.

And working longer and harder is a requisite for most Americans, especially those professionals pulling down $100K+.

[nsrammstein]

So I guess that every person that is not white, non-catholic, is an illegal alien clogging up the emergency rooms, nice generalization dick.