Six guns at high noon?Phoenix-San Antonio rivalry turning into Wild West showdown

[ducks]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/articles/0802p2main0802.html
Bob Young
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 2, 2007 12:00 AM

It seems sort of fitting that the Western Conference title in the WNBA is coming down to a two-team race between San Antonio and Phoenix.

The Silver Stars and the Mercury meet tonight in the Alamo City, and we can only hope that it's a preview of a playoff matchup.


We don't have to tell you the two cities are beginning to form what could be a lasting rivalry.

The Suns and Spurs have met in the playoffs eight times, with the Spurs winning five series, including the past three.

But the Western Conference semifinals this year have taken it to a new level.

Many Suns fans will believe forever that a potential championship was snatched in some sort of a conspiracy, or at least because of a dirty referee.

Many Spurs fans think Suns followers sound an awful lot like Sergio Garcia - blubbering something about bad breaks and having to defeat unseen demon forces on top of the competition.

It's all great stuff for Internet message boards.

Actually, we really like San Antonio. It has a lot of history.

Did you know that Native Americans who originally lived in the area called it Yanaguana, which roughly translated means, "Whew, do you smell that?"

Or maybe it's "refreshing waters." Scholars are equally split.

Anyway, now we have a WNBA version of the rivalry emerging.

And it's bound to get more intense what with two Sun Belt cities battling for supremacy.

Of course, we're winning.

Sporting News just released its annual rankings of the best sports cities, and Phoenix rated eighth.

San Antonio came in a distant 31st, mainly because we have four major sports and they have one.

Here's how the rivalry stacks up:


Major sports teams
Valley: Suns, Diamondbacks, Coyotes, Cardinals.

SA: Spurs.


Other stuff
Valley: We have spring training, the WNBA, National Lacrosse League, Arena Football and Pac-10 sports.

SA: WNBA, minor league hockey (the Rampage is a top minor league affiliate of the Coyotes) and Double-A baseball.

Notre Dame will play a game there in 2009 as part of a new "off-site" program.


Domes
Valley: University of Phoenix Stadium is what they call "state of the art." We also have Chase Field. Both are convertibles.

SA: The Alamodome's a hardtop, but it has UO-Pee outnumbered 88-77 in bathrooms.


Attractions
Valley: The weather. The Arizona Science Center. The Heard Museum. Castles and Coasters. Did we mention the weather?

SA: River Walk, Sea World, the Alamo.


Big events
Valley: Two Super Bowls (assuming we pull off the one in February). Four national-championship football games hosted by the Fiesta Bowl. An NBA All-Star Game and two NBA Finals.

SA: Twice the Alamodome has played host to the Final Four and will again in 2008. The Women's Final Four was there in 2002 and returns in 2010.

The city also has had an NBA All-Star Game and four NBA Finals.


Heat
Valley: Dry.

SA: A swamp thing.


Mexican food
Valley: It's great everywhere, but we favor the Tee Pee because of the chile rellenos.

SA: OK, we happen to love Mi Tierra Café in San Antonio's Market Square district. It's open 24 hours a day and worth the trip at any time.

But, c'mon, what's up with the tortillas down there in Texas? The pancakes at IHOP are thinner.


Speaking of thinner
Valley: Phoenix isn't on Men's Health magazine's 2007 list of "America's 10 Fattest Cities," although those porkers in suburban Mesa made the list at No. 4.

SA: Yep, they're on the list at No. 2, right behind the buffet capital of the world, Las (buuuup) Vegas.


Celebrity couples
Valley: Let's see . . . Bickley and MJ?

SA: Tony and Eva.

That one's a walkover.


Championships
Valley: Well, let's see. There's the 2001 World Series.

SA: Uh, four NBA championships.

So there's that.


Not so fast
Arizona State basketball coach Herb Sendek was close to Skip Prosser, the Wake Forest hoops coach who died last week.

He told USA Today: “Skip didn't coach to wear Armani suits or to appear on SportsCenter. He coached because he loved people and liked to teach.

“He was a coach's coach. He got into it for the right reasons and never lost his bearings.”

He also noted that, “You don't have a name like Skip unless you're a friend to everybody.”

Sendek evidently hasn't heard of Skip Bayless.

[Clutch20]

How......can it be a shootout if SA vs Phx losers of past playoffs keep loading their pistolas with blanks......................

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Arizona weather is overrated. It's too frickin' hot to breath there during the summer. SA has its humidity. I'd say that one's a wash. Slight edge to Phoenix perhaps, but not by much.

[Mark in Austin]

A "rivalry" implies both teams have won. Right now Phoenix is still working on "jealousy" and "envy". Try re-running that column once the Suns actually win a series against the Spurs.

:toast

[boutons_]

Suns are more preoccupied with the Spurs than the Spurs have ever been with the Suns. That should continue as long as Duncan and Pop are here.

A one-way rivalry is a crappy rivalry.

[TDMVPDPOY]

spurs 4 rings > suns who?

gtfo

[CubanMustGo]

Six guns? More like a pop gun (Suns) facing off against a howitzer (Spurs).

[Extra Stout]

The Spurs are the Suns' nemesis, but it doesn't work both ways. The Suns are not a legitimate rival to the Spurs, any more than the Bucks or Hawks were legitimate rivals to the Celtics in the 1980's. The more applicable term is "also-ran."

Plus Phoenicians are whiny, gutless pussies not worthy of the respect that a rivalry would connote.

[j-6]

88 bathrooms. Now that's pimp.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It always struck me as odd that they would call it a rivalry, after all, rivalry implies there are two sides to the conflict. The simple truth here is, Spurs always beat the Suns, and the Suns a bitter pussies, plain and simple.

[FromWayDowntown]

A WNBA regular season matchup as a proxy to run weak NBA smack?

Go Silver Stars!!

[samikeyp]

But, c'mon, what's up with the tortillas down there in Texas? The pancakes at IHOP are thinner.

They like weak, thin tortillas?

Figures. :lol

[Switchman]

I've been to Phoenix twice and their "mexican" food tasted like shit.

I mainly stay on the NorthSide of S.A. but the best mexican food I have ever had is in Rockport, Texas.

AZ has some badass wild west history and it is a shame their fans are a bunch of cry babies.

[Extra Stout]

I've been to Phoenix twice and their "mexican" food tasted like shit.

I mainly stay on the NorthSide of S.A. but the best mexican food I have ever had is in Rockport, Texas.

AZ has some badass wild west history and it is a shame their fans are a bunch of cry babies.
I'm guessing Arizona doesn't specialize in Tex-Mex. What is it there, like a Cali-NM hybrid?

Somehow I'm thinking chilies and cabbage wouldn't go together so well,

[wildbill2u]

The Arizona weather is overrated. It's too frickin' hot to breath there during the summer. SA has its humidity. I'd say that one's a wash. Slight edge to Phoenix perhaps, but not by much.
There aren't many days in SA where you absolutely are in danger from heatstroke due to dehydration when you go outside.

I'll take a few muggy days against living in an oven.

[Switchman]

AZ weather is pretty cool. No humidity, 115* daytime temps, 40* nighttime when we were there.

They have a monsoon season lol.

[ehz33satx]

The Arizona weather is overrated. It's too frickin' hot to breath there during the summer. SA has its humidity. I'd say that one's a wash. Slight edge to Phoenix perhaps, but not by much.

You ever see that news video of Phoenix being engulfed by a massive sandstorm? I hear it happens all the time.

[Shred]

SA's weather kicks Phoenix's a$$ any day. Not only does Phoenix have the insane temps, it is located in a basin with no trees, no shade, just concrete and asphalt.

On a completely different note, it's ridiculous that San Antonio doesn't have D-I college football.

[JMarkJohns]

You ever see that news video of Phoenix being engulfed by a massive sandstorm? I hear it happens all the time.

If by "all the time" you mean once every year or so, then yeah... ALL THE TIME!

As for the article, no real news going on right now. Just Cardinal propoganda, Diamondbacks articles and not much else. I agree with everyone who said this isn't a rivalry yet. It's not. It's heated, and the Suns hate the Spurs, but they'll have to win a series before a rivalry is created.

[Dutch13]

No mention of the horrible pollution as well in Phoenix

[Shred]

And, oh yeah, the obsession continues....

[Shred]

If by "all the time" you mean once every year or so, then yeah... ALL THE TIME!

As for the article, no real news going on right now. Just Cardinal propoganda, Diamondbacks articles and not much else. I agree with everyone who said this isn't a rivalry yet. It's not. It's heated, and the Suns hate the Spurs, but they'll have to win a series before a rivalry is created.

The Red Sox weren't the Yankees' rivals until 2004?

[JMarkJohns]

I'm sure they'd won a series or two, just never the World Series.

[Phenomanul]

The Red Sox weren't the Yankees' rivals until 2004?


Even though they hadn't won the series since like 1918 they had several league Pennants, with some being at the expense of the Yankees....

[Phenomanul]

And, oh yeah, the obsession continues....


Yeah... by Suns Nation .... good point.

[judaspriestess]

Mexican food
Valley: It's great everywhere, but we favor the Tee Pee because of the chile rellenos.

The Mexican food in phoenix is beyond pewtrid disgusting. Its a fucking joke for food there. Their BBQ is worthless too. Tortillas? NO ONE and I mean no one beats SA or South Texas for tortillas or its Mexican food.

sounds like another trained parrot article and incredibly stupid.

Get a life MOR"A"NS.

[samikeyp]

And, oh yeah, the obsession continues....

I agree...you would think Phoenicians would move on by now.

[da_suns_fan__]

How did Young forget THE RODEO!

The one event thats bigger than Spurs games in San Antonio!!

YEE HAW!!!!!!!!

[dbestpro]

This is hilarious. We can't beat your guys so we are gonna beat your gals. What's next? Tiny Tots league? Oh I know, iguana races. Those Arizona iguanas are real fast. Better look out San Antonio!

[samikeyp]

Those Arizona iguanas are real fast. Better look out San Antonio!

Yes but how are they on the power play?

http://www.io.com/~patrick/iggies.gif

:lol

[sandman]

Feel Good About My Town Even Though My Team Sucks Forum

[Shred]

The Mexican food in phoenix is beyond pewtrid disgusting. Its a fucking joke for food there. Their BBQ is worthless too. Tortillas? NO ONE and I mean no one beats SA or South Texas for tortillas or its Mexican food.

sounds like another trained parrot article and incredibly stupid.

Get a life MOR"A"NS.

San Antonio's waistlines prove you're right.

[Shred]

I agree...you would think Phoenicians would move on by now.

I ain't the one starting these threads. You people can't go more than 24 hours without posting about the Suns.

[oligarchy]

I ain't the one starting these threads. You people can't go more than 24 hours without posting about the Suns.

So, the article was written by someone in San Antonio? So what does that say about Phoenix writers and their fans that they can't go more than a few days without writing some article? Pot -> Kettle -> black

[CubanMustGo]

I ain't the one starting these threads. You people can't go more than 24 hours without posting about the Suns.

How long can YOU go without posting on a Spurs board, O Queen of the Obsessed?

[Sense]

Ahh the PHX fans.... :lol

[UV Ray]

All kidding aside, the weight thing sounds like a serious health issue. Maybe you should put Phentermine in the water supply.

[CubanMustGo]

Too bad for Phoenix fans that there's nothing you can add to water to make them smarter.

[UV Ray]

Stomach stapling GTG's might be a good start.

[Shred]

So, the article was written by someone in San Antonio? So what does that say about Phoenix writers and their fans that they can't go more than a few days without writing some article? Pot -> Kettle -> black

Phoenix writers speak for and act on behalf of the fans? That's a first!

[Shred]

How long can YOU go without posting on a Spurs board, O Queen of the Obsessed?

The question should be, how long will the monkeys continue to dance?

[UV Ray]

Cue Johnny Ringo.

[Johnny RIngo]

Spurs are 15-6 against Steve Trash's S0ns and won two championships after eliminating them in the post-season. Rivalry? Sounds more like a beat down to me. At this point, the Nuggets and Rockets are more legit contenders than the S0ns.

The only team that deserves to call themselves our rivals are the Mavs.

[AllSunsRWhiners]

The question should be, how long will the monkeys continue to dance?

I dunno, monkey, considering there were four SunFan responses since the last Spurs fan post, who exactly is the monkey that's dancing?

"Oook, oook." That should be underneath your avatar. Kori, make it so!

[UV Ray]

Spurs are 15-6 against Steve Trash's S0ns and won two championships after eliminating them in the post-season. Rivalry? Sounds more like a beat down to me. At this point, the Nuggets and Rockets are more legit contenders than the S0ns.

The only team that deserves to call themselves our rivals are the Mavs.
Right on time.

[Johnny RIngo]

I dunno, monkey, considering there were four SunFan responses since the last Spurs fan post, who exactly is the monkey that's dancing?

"Oook, oook." That should be underneath your avatar. Kori, make it so!

Stop taking these S0ns fans so seriously. They're only going to be here a short while so humor them while you can. When Houston or Denver eliminates them in the first round this year they'll be busy whining on their forums.

[UV Ray]

Spurs are 15-6 against Steve Trash's S0ns and won two championships after eliminating them in the post-season. Rivalry? Sounds more like a beat down to me. At this point, the Nuggets and Rockets are more legit contenders than the S0ns.

The only team that deserves to call themselves our rivals are the Mavs.

BTW, why do you hate Nash so much?

Humor me.

[Shred]

Damn it, Johnny, you're like clockwork! Why are you playing on the Internets? You're supposed to be mowing my lawn.

[Shred]

BTW, why do you hate Nash so much?

Humor me.

He thinks it makes us angry.

[UV Ray]

He thinks it makes us angry.
He isn't rational enough to provoke anger.

[50 cent]

Phoenix has a raging case of penis envy for all things S.A.

It's pretty sad.

[Shred]

Phoenix has a raging case of penis envy for all things S.A.

It's pretty sad.

"All things San Antonio?" Phoenix has fat chicks, gang shootings, illegal immigrants, and child abuse, too.

[UV Ray]

Phoenix has a raging case of penis envy for all things S.A.


And you're the expert on penis envy?

[oligarchy]

Phoenix writers speak for and act on behalf of the fans? That's a first!

No, but it's an obsession that a Spurs fan posts an ARTICLE WRITTEN by someone in Phoenix? That's a first!

Now, an obsession is a stupid Phoenix fan named Shred, who hangs out on a Spurs board and calls the post of an article by a Phoenix writer obsessive. What a tool you are.

[UV Ray]

No, but it's an obsession that a Spurs fan posts an ARTICLE WRITTEN by someone in Phoenix? That's a first!


So you admit that at least one Spurs fan is obsessed? Make that two if you count Johnny Ringo.

[inconvertible]

Phoenix has all those sports teams cuz there ain't a Dallas or Houston anywhere near those a-holes.

[IceColdBrewski]

Ther is no rivalry. Saying it's a rivalry would actually suggest there's an actual hatred between the two. There is no hatred for Phoenix on San Antonio's end. Only pity for a fan base that has a massive inferiority complex.

[UV Ray]

Only pity for a fan base that has a massive inferiority complex.

If you truly felt that way, you wouldn't make that statement.

[UV Ray]

Phoenix has all those sports teams cuz there ain't a Dallas or Houston anywhere near those a-holes.

And that's pertinent because...?

[RussN]

[QUOTE=JMarkJohns]If by "all the time" you mean once every year or so, then yeah... ALL THE TIME!
QUOTE]

I guess the Spurs win the NBA championship "ALL THE TIME" (once every other year or so), by the way, it's pretty nice.

I sure enjoyed the Humidity when I was watching the 4 O'Brien trophies float by me this summer.

[RussN]

The question should be, how long will the monkeys continue to dance?

I don't know, ask your mascot.

[Johnny RIngo]

BTW, why do you hate Nash so much?

Humor me.

Hate? If anything, Steve Trash disgusts me.

-No defense
-Big-time flopper (one of the top floppers in the league actually). He can't play legit defense so he flops like a fish on the other end of the court.
-whines like a bitch
-stole Shaq and Kobe's MVPs
-tainted and tarnished the MVP award. The award used to mean something before he won it
-gets undeserved credit...he's really an average player in a gimmick offense. Mavs got much better when he left their team.
-John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton were all much better point guards. None of them won two MVPs(let alone one). Why? They didn't have the power of the Phoenix media who made it a point to shove Steve Trash down everyone's throat.

[Johnny RIngo]

No, but it's an obsession that a Spurs fan posts an ARTICLE WRITTEN by someone in Phoenix? That's a first!

Now, an obsession is a stupid Phoenix fan named Shred, who hangs out on a Spurs board and calls the post of an article by a Phoenix writer obsessive. What a tool you are.

Don't bother trying to reason with Arizonans. They are the stupidest state in the nation for a reason. Simple concepts like hypocrisy confuse them.

[UV Ray]

Don't bother trying to reason with Arizonans. They are the stupidest state in the nation for a reason. Simple concepts like hypocrisy confuse them.

Laces out.

[Johnny RIngo]

Laces out.

The obsession continue!

[da_suns_fan__]

Hate? If anything, Steve Trash disgusts me.

-No defense
-Big-time flopper (one of the top floppers in the league actually). He can't play legit defense so he flops like a fish on the other end of the court.
-whines like a bitch
-stole Shaq and Kobe's MVPs
-tainted and tarnished the MVP award. The award used to mean something before he won it
-gets undeserved credit...he's really an average player in a gimmick offense. Mavs got much better when he left their team.
-John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton were all much better point guards. None of them won two MVPs(let alone one). Why? They didn't have the power of the Phoenix media who made it a point to shove Steve Trash down everyone's throat.


:lol

Jason Kidd played for the Suns for years dumbass!

[Johnny RIngo]

:lol

Jason Kidd played for the Suns for years dumbass!

His best years were on the Nets, retard.

No wonder Arizona was ranked the dumbest state in U.S.

[UV Ray]

Hate? If anything, Steve Trash disgusts me.

-John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton were all much better point guards. None of them won two MVPs(let alone one). Why? They didn't have the power of the Phoenix media who made it a point to shove Steve Trash down everyone's throat.

Dude, get real. Phoenix media doesn't have that kind of power.

[da_suns_fan__]

His best years were on the Nets, retard.

No wonder Arizona was ranked the dumbest state in U.S.


You are obviously unaware the first year he was an MVP candidate was back in 98-99. You know...the first asterisk season?

DUMBASS! :lol

[UV Ray]

I'd bet money Ringo is a paranoid schiz and doesn't know it.

[Johnny RIngo]

Dude, get real. Phoenix media doesn't have that kind of power.

2 back-to-back MVPs for a gimmick player with no D? No way was he any better than Shaq/Kobe/Lebron. The Phoenix media heavily influenced the outcome.


You are obviously unaware the first year he was an MVP candidate was back in 98-99. You know...the first asterisk season?

DUMBASS! :lol

Like I said, his best years were in New Jersey...you know when he made it to the Finals. Something Steve Trash will never do.

[UV Ray]

2 back-to-back MVPs for a gimmick player with no D? No way was he any better than Shaq/Kobe/Lebron. The Phoenix media heavily influenced the outcome.



Good God man, both Miami and LA have larger metro pops. For Christ's sake, get a grip.

[da_suns_fan__]

So why did the all-powerful Phoenix media not award Kidd the MVP then?

And its not Nash's fault the league screwed up in 2002.

Didn't Shaq call Kidd "The REAL MVP" during his post-finals speech?

Blame the people who voted for Duncan.

[jdaveah]

I don't want to get into the childish debate that a few people have decided to engage in, but I will just say that after living in both Phoenix and Tucson for the better part of 4 years that anybody who claims any aspect of Mexican food is better in Arizona is on crack.

[oligarchy]

So you admit that at least one Spurs fan is obsessed? Make that two if you count Johnny Ringo.

No. It was a question. Do you know how to read english? <- that character on the end is a question mark. It signifies the sentence is a question.

[Johnny RIngo]

Good God man, both Miami and LA have larger metro pops. For Christ's sake, get a grip.

The LA media(along with most other media markets) turned their back on Kobe after the rape incident. This is exactly why the media has to stop being allowed to vote for MVPs.


Its not Nash's fault the league screwed up in 2002.

Didn't Shaq call Kidd "The REAL MVP" during his post-finals speech?

Blame the people who voted for Duncan.

Shaq On Taint

After the Heat lost to Dallas on Thursday, a reporter engaged Shaq in conversation about Dirk Nowitzki's MVP candidacy. Shaq, sensing the opportunity to get some things off his chest, went off about how the award selection process and said that Steve Nash's last two MVP awards were "tainted."

It's pretty sad that they gave two MVPs to Nash...a guy that doesn't even deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Check it out:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

Stastically, Nash is below players like Antoine Walker, Marbury, Francis, and Shawn Marion. Duncan, on the other hand...

17 Tim Duncan .9994
139 Steve Nash .1175

Now that's a huge gap. :rollin

[UV Ray]

I don't want to get into the childish debate that a few people have decided to engage in, but I will just say that after living in both Phoenix and Tucson for the better part of 4 years that anybody who claims any aspect of Mexican food is better in Arizona is on crack.

Well I won't argue about food with a San Antonion.
:lol

[samikeyp]

I ain't the one starting these threads. You people can't go more than 24 hours without posting about the Suns.

It was a Phoenix newspaper guy who wrote the article. That's who I was referring to. Looks like its not just some (not all, as Shred foolishly and ignorantly believes) Spurs fans who can't let this go.

[exstatic]

A "rivalry" implies both teams have won. Right now Phoenix is still working on "jealousy" and "envy". Try re-running that column once the Suns actually win a series against the Spurs.

:toast
Thank you. With pretty much the same core teams, SA is 12-5 in games and 3-0 in series in a 4 year span from the 2003 playoffs thru the 2007 playoffs. Frank Johnson also got 40% of those 5 wins in one series, so that makes the D'Antoni Suns even more of a joke.

[Johnny RIngo]

Bill Simmons:

Put it this way: Nash was a cute choice last season, mainly because none of the other candidates stood out, and I could see why someone would have been swayed. (It was like ordering one of those fancy foreign beers at a bar, the ones in the heavy green bottles with the 13-letter name that you can't pronounce, only someone else is drinking it, so you say to yourself, "Ah, screw it, I'm tired of the beer I always drink, lemme try one of those.") But this year? I'm not saying he should be ignored, but if you actually end up picking him, either you're not watching enough basketball or you just want to see a white guy win back-to-back MVP's.

[kev]

Well I won't argue about food with a San Antonion.
:lol

then don't argue basketball with a spurs fan :lol

[UV Ray]

then don't argue basketball with a spurs fan :lol
Mine was funnier. :lol

[da_suns_fan__]

Bill Simmons:

Put it this way: Nash was a cute choice last season, mainly because none of the other candidates stood out, and I could see why someone would have been swayed. (It was like ordering one of those fancy foreign beers at a bar, the ones in the heavy green bottles with the 13-letter name that you can't pronounce, only someone else is drinking it, so you say to yourself, "Ah, screw it, I'm tired of the beer I always drink, lemme try one of those.") But this year? I'm not saying he should be ignored, but if you actually end up picking him, either you're not watching enough basketball or you just want to see a white guy win back-to-back MVP's.

Simmons also picked Nash over all other candidates (besides the fans) for THIS years MVP.

Gotta love the respect Nash gets.

[da_suns_fan__]

Mine was funnier. :lol

Yes it was. :toast

[UV Ray]

Bill Simmons:

Put it this way: Nash was a cute choice last season, mainly because none of the other candidates stood out, and I could see why someone would have been swayed. (It was like ordering one of those fancy foreign beers at a bar, the ones in the heavy green bottles with the 13-letter name that you can't pronounce, only someone else is drinking it, so you say to yourself, "Ah, screw it, I'm tired of the beer I always drink, lemme try one of those.") But this year? I'm not saying he should be ignored, but if you actually end up picking him, either you're not watching enough basketball or you just want to see a white guy win back-to-back MVP's.
I can't relate. I always drink American.

[kev]

Mine was funnier. :lol

no, both statements were true. superior mexican food = bigger waistlines, and superior basketball = championships.

you've got us in smog, though. congrats.

[UV Ray]

Yes it was. :toast
:toast

[Johnny RIngo]

It's not that the regular fans make excuses. It's that the whole fanbase, from the people who buy tickets to the media to the owners, think that the Suns have the best team in the league. And they do have three All-NBA talents on their team. And they are led by the ultimate offensive catalyst. But I honestly think that it all started with the Phoenix media. Some of you may have heard Charles Barkely (a former Sun) discuss how rabid and delusional the media members are in that particular region of Arizona.

Nash won two MVPs because of the overwhelming campaign put on by these guys. They kept telling everyone that the Suns had the most talent in the league, and Nash was the one making them realize their potential (despite the fact that Matrix has been doing his thing for years, Amare was destined for a breakout under a new system, and the Mavericks got better). Nash won his first MVP for being the "best player on the best team," an award that should go to the Finals MVP. The next year he won because he "didn't have Amare." Well, neither did LeBron. And he didn't have Shawn Marion, either. But apparently four more wins is enough to give it to a guy getting 18-10 over a guy getting 30-7-7. If you're going to give it to a guy on a 50-win team who plays no defense, look at LeBron, not Nash.

So while we heard these rehashed legitimizations for two years about how Nash and the Suns are the best team in the league that keeps getting jobbed, they start believing it. I've never seen the players fail to take accountability in a press conference, but its clear that everyone else has done exactly that. The organization hasn't stepped up to the plate to supplement the core. That's why they haven't been able to do what it takes to win. That's why Joe Johnson's injury hurt so much. When you play a whole year as a team without Amare, you are still a team. Whatever you do in the postseason is an indication of your merits. Having two All-NBA players should still put you in that class. But losing Raja Bell on top of it is going to kill a team with no depth. This year, the suspensions are what did it. Gee, do you think the organization should take some accountability and make some efforts to increase depth and add a post defender? No, they do exactly the opposite. They nix a chance to get fresh legs be selling their draft picks every year, and then ship out their best post defender in Kurt Thomas. The second such Thomas to leave in two offseasons.

Someone went through a breakdown of what happened with the Suns every season in the playoffs, insinuating that they've improved. Well, they've still never beaten the Spurs, and it was three years ago, with a deeper team, that they managed to dispatch the Mavericks (with a sophomore Josh Howard). The team has gotten thinner and thinner while they're expected to carry the load during the regular season and still have fresh enough legs to run in the playoffs. And they've since stopped making conference Finals, even though this was their opportunity to skip past the Mavericks. This team is regressing, and they never had what it takes.

I have to laugh when people say that there's no chance an Eastern Conference team can take down the Suns. Well, what are the odds that the Suns are going to run into an Eastern Conference team who can slow the pace to a grinding halt? Pretty good. What are the odds that a decently good offensive team can shred the Suns average defense? Pretty good. What are the odds that the Suns will be able to succeed in the half-court against and ECF champ's defense? Probably not that good. What are the odds that the Suns even make the Finals? Not good, the way they're headed.

The organization knows that the media and fans are happy as long as they've got a shot at doing well in the playoffs, and they have the big three. You guys have been making excuses for them for so long that there's no accountability. The players haven't learned to play defense. D'Antoni hasn't made the adjustment to a winning style of basketball. The organization intentionally takes steps back at places which they need to improve. But the media and the fans love it. They know you'll be buying up tickets and the networks will pay bigtime to get the Suns on TV for the maximum number of games. The money's flowing and the fans are happy.

As businessmen they are thriving as a basketball team.

As a basketball team they are not taking care of business.

[da_suns_fan__]

I prefer Simmons:


By Bill Simmons
Page 2

Since I haven't written an NBA column in five weeks, thousands of frustrated basketball fans have been flooding me with e-mails and demanding their hoops fix. All right, maybe it hasn't been thousands, more like hundreds. Or maybe it was just six readers, my buddy House and Marc Stein. But still, it FELT like thousands of readers. That's the important thing.
Greg Oden
Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images
The Sports Guy is forced to watch the college game if he wants to root for the Celtics.

Just know that I haven't been ignoring the NBA. I'm just a little depressed because the Celtics stink again. Fortunately, we stink to the point that we're now the leading contenders for the Kevin Durant-Greg Oden Sweepstakes. (Yeah, I know I put Durant first even though Oden is the consensus No. 1. Just know that I factored in the upcoming March Madness tournament when Durant averages a 35-13 for two straight weeks and nearly wins the national title by himself, followed by three straight months of, "Wait, this guy is a rich man's KG, he might be better than Oden!" stories and features. If you don't believe me, watch Durant for a few games. He's going to be very, VERY famous some day. You can say you knew him when.) Now I'm openly rooting against the Celtics and TiVo-ing every game involving everyone on Chad Ford's top 350.

Anyway, since I'm trapped in Celtics Hell, I needed something to carry me through the dregs of the NBA regular season. And you know what's kept me going?

The Phoenix Suns.

I watch all of their games. I rewind plays to see what they're doing and how they're doing it. I learn about basketball from them. I revel in their splendidry, and I don't even think splendidry is a word. They're the most consistently entertaining basketball team in 20 years. They have a chance to be historically good. You could be bouncing your grandkids on your lap someday and telling them that you watched the 2007 Suns.

Naturally, nobody's talking about them. Everyone's tired of hearing about Nash at this point, and since they don't have the best record in the league, there isn't any urgency to make a fuss about them. But if you care about basketball at all, if the sport has ever meant anything to you, if you remember the Magic-Bird Era fondly in any way, if you're remotely interested in watching a professional sports team peak ... then you need to follow the Suns. They're sniffing at true greatness. I'm not saying it will happen, just that it could. You never imagined that an NBA team could score 111 points a game, shoot 51 percent from the field, shoot 81 percent from the line, make 40 percent of its 3s, double as the best transition team since the Showtime Lakers and still manage to be half-decent defensively, right?

Well, it's happening. And it's an exceedingly relevant development for two reasons:

1. We're in a weird time in sports right now. There isn't a dominant football, baseball, basketball or hockey player. There isn't a dominant boxer. Our two transcendent athletes are a tennis player (Roger Federer) and a golfer (Tiger Woods). We haven't seen a dominant team since the Patriots rolled off 31 of 33 victories during their last two Super Bowl seasons ... and as much I loved that team, there was never a point where you could have definitively said, "That team is playing on a higher plane than everyone else." Ever since MJ retired (the second time) and the Yankees got old, there's been a greatness drought with team sports.

2. The last great basketball teams were the Lakers and Celtics from the mid-'80s. Both were blessed with selfless superduperstars (Bird and Magic), genuine Hall of Famers (McHale and Parish for Boston; Worthy and Kareem for the Lakers) and valuable role players (DJ, Ainge and Walton for Boston; Cooper, Scott and Green for the Lakers). And both teams reached heights that haven't been approached since. They were the last two teams that dominated in a competitive league and routinely submitted those occasional "not only are we winning this game by 25 points, just send the tape to Springfield after it's over" games.

In a related story, the Suns are 26-2 in their last 28 games. Here were their two losses:

Dec. 22: They lose to the Wizards in OT (144-139) in a game that Arenas tied with a 3-point play in regulation, then Nash missed a wide-open 3 that could have ended it.

Dec. 28: They lose in Dallas by two (101-99) when Nowitzki made a jumper with 0.1 seconds left.

With two reasonable breaks (Nash making the 3-pointer, Nowitzki missing the jumper), the Suns could be working on a 28-game winning streak right now. I've mentioned that to three people over the last 48 hours and all of them said the same thing: "Wait a second ... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????"

It's true. You can look it up.

Shawn Marion
Andrew D. Bernstein/Getty Images
Balancing the psyche of Shawn Marion is just one of the tricks up Steve Nash's sleeve.

I didn't see this one coming. When the Suns were limping along to a 1-5 mark in early November, I wrote that Amare Stoudemire's up-and-down comeback was screwing them up. Seeing them in person against the Clippers that week, they looked about as happy as the family from "Little Miss Sunshine." How can you not have fun when you're playing with Steve Nash???? It's almost un-American. Umm, un-North American.

Just when things were looking bleak enough that a major trade seemed possible, four things happened that turned Phoenix's season around. First, the Suns stopped bringing Stoudemire off the bench, started him at center and rolled the dice with his "sore" knee. And guess what? He stopped sulking and started busting his butt on both ends. (Note: Stoudemire even admitted as much in Jack McCallum's story in Sports Illustrated a few weeks ago.) Second, they won a memorable triple-OT game in Jersey that kicked them into another gear. Every season has a defining game that gets a great team going -- for the '86 Celtics, it was the Christmas Day game when they blew a 25-point lead to the Knicks on national TV, spent two days sulking about it, then went on the NBA version of a cross-country killing spree (winning 20 of their next 22, including both Lakers games). The 161-157 game did that for the Suns. Third, Mike D'Antoni buried Marcus Banks (an indefensibly bad free-agent signing) and made Barbosa the backup point, which enabled the Suns to play quality guards at all times. And fourth, Diaw and Marion conceded the high post (and all those high screens with Nash) to Stoudemire and figured out other ways to get their stats.

If there's a potential land mine, it's the Marion-Stoudemire rivalry, an ongoing problem (as McCallum described in his book about the Suns) because of Stoudemire's enormous ego and Marion's insecurities about his underappreciated career (even though his talents are indisputably essential to everything the Suns do). If this were a rock band, Marion would be the drummer -- the guy who's killing himself every night and resigning himself to a couple of solos per concert. In fact, one of the reasons I couldn't endorse Nash's previous MVP candidacies was because no Phoenix star could be more "valuable" than any other Phoenix star; such a premise belittled the contributions of Stoudemire two years ago and Marion last season. Without Marion, the Suns wouldn't be the Suns.

STATS DON'T LIE
According to STATS INC, the Suns rank in the top-3 in the following offensive categories:

Field Goals made (1st)
Three-pointers made (1st)
Free throw percentage (1st)
True shooting percentage (1st)
Two-point field goal percentage (1st)
Three-point percentage (2nd)
Assists (1st)
Assists/turnover ratio (1st)
Points per game (1st)
Fast break points (3rd)

Anyway, the Stoudemire-Marion issue could have killed this team -- hell, it still might -- but something funny happened while they were sorting everything out: Phoenix couldn't stop winning. After the 3-6 start, the Suns won an astonishing 15 straight, dropped two of three, then won another 10 straight (and counting). Once they started rolling over everybody, Marion accepted his new role as the drummer. For now. Let's see how he feels in five months. But as long as he's happy, Phoenix's top six players surpass anything we've seen since Magic-Kareem-Worthy-Cooper-Scott-Thompson/Green or Bird-Parish-McHale-Johnson-Ainge-Walton. Just look at these guys. It's insane.

Barbosa: He'd be the best guard on more than half the teams in the league right now ... unstoppable off the dribble and a first-team member of the Streak Scorer All-Stars ... learned to run the offense just competently enough that they could bury Banks ... they'll even run plays for him in crunch time (like the 3 that beat the Bulls) ... I think he's one of the best 40 players in the league, a slightly more efficient version of Ben Gordon ... by the way, he's their sixth man.

Diaw: Killed them in the first few weeks by showing up out of shape, now he's fine ... plays three positions and guards the best opposing low-post player, doubles as the second-best passer on the team (5.5 assists a game!), doesn't care about shots, moved to the wing for Stoudemire's sake and remained just as effective ... one of the most underrated back-to-the-basket guys in either conference, although the Suns rarely go to him in the low post ... also one of the only people I've ever liked from France ... shooting an eye-opening 54 percent this season ... I think he's one of the best 45-50 players in the league ... somewhere, Steve Belkin is reading this and saying to himself, "See, I told you Diaw and two No. 1s was too much!"

Bell: Doesn't care about shots, nails open 3s (42 percent) and covers the best opposing scorer every game (although his defense is slightly overrated -- quicker guys like Gordon give him problems) ... he's also their fiercest competitor ... if they don't need his defense in crunch time, they'll play Barbosa over him and he won't complain about it ... I once wrote that he played like Bruce Bowen after four drinks -- I'd like to revise that to "Bowen after two shots of tequila and a slap to the face" ... and if that's not enough, he clearly aggravates Kobe, which counts for something.

Marion: If you had to pick one forward in the NBA to run the floor with Nash, this would be the guy ... as long as he's happy, playing hard and feeling even mildly appreciated, the 2007 Suns are unstoppable ... I think he's one of the best 20 players in the league ... by the way, did you ever think that Shawn Marion would go down as the greatest UNLV player in NBA history?
Amare Stoudemire
Barry Gossage/Getty Images
Looks like huge egos and microfracture surgery can't keep the Suns down.

Stoudemire: I'd say he's about 87 percent back, which makes him the second-best center alive (behind Yao and tied with Dwight Howard) and a top-20 player ... totally attuned with Nash on those pick-and-rolls ... improved his team defense and became an asset as a shot-blocker ... averaging a 20-10 over the past six weeks and starting to show "force of nature" signs again ... living proof that you CAN come back from microfracture surgery (although I still wouldn't recommend it).

Nash: I wouldn't have voted him MVP the past two years (when he did win), but I'd absolutely vote for him this year (when he won't win because nobody's prepared for a world where Steve Nash is a three-time NBA MVP). Here's the case for Nash in three parts:

A. When the Suns were threatening to implode early in the season, by all accounts, he kept them together almost singlehandedly (on and off the court). There isn't a more authentic leader in the league. He's the anti-Zach Randolph.

B. The more he plays with the same teammates, the better he gets. Now he's starting to resemble Gretzky during his Edmonton days -- not only does he keep finding guys for layups, dunks and wide-open 3s, he's finding them at consistently impossible angles. I have never, ever, EVER seen anyone run the point guard position like this on a day-to-day basis. Not even Magic and Isiah. If we ever kept track of assists that directly created a layup or dunk for a teammate, he'd be heading toward an all-time record.

C. Two months ago, I joked that Deron Williams looked like he went to John Stockton Summer Camp ... then it turned out that he actually DID spend the summer being tutored by Stockton. Now I'm wondering if Nash went as well. He rarely smiles and he barks at the refs more than he ever did. He gets testy with opposing players and teammates. Just like Stockton, he sets moving picks and trips defenders coming off screens (most famously to set up Barbosa's 3 that won the Chicago game). I don't want to say he's going to the dark side like Danny LaRusso during the Terry Silva Era, but there's definitely a nasty edge to his game that I can't remember seeing before.

Here's what happened: When Dallas eliminated Phoenix last spring, Nash probably spent a few weeks mulling over his career and everything that happened. He thought about the two MVP awards, realized he couldn't accomplish anything more other than winning a title, then thought long and hard about how to do it, ultimately cutting off his hair (feel the symbolism, baby!) and getting in the best shape of his life (remember, he wore down the last two springs). Then he showed up for training camp, realized the Marion-Stoudemire soap opera would be an ongoing problem, realized Diaw was woefully out of shape, realized Banks wasn't going to help at all ... and something snapped inside him. Exit, nice Steve Nash. Enter, icy Steve Nash. And he's been playing pissed off ever since. Eventually, everyone else fell in line.

Well, guess what? THAT'S AN MVP! That's what I'm looking for! Finally!
Steve Nash
Barry Gossage/Getty Images
Losing to the Mavs last year did make Nash sad, it got him angry.

It's been a virtuoso season for him. Borrowing the same tactic that once worked so well for Magic, Isiah and Stockton, Nash uses the first 40-42 minutes to get everyone else going, then takes over in crunch time and looks for his own offense if the Suns need it. Sometimes he'll defer to a scorching-hot Barbosa, sometimes he'll feed Amare on those high screens, sometimes he'll post Diaw if there's a mismatch to be exploited, sometimes he'll slash-and-kick to Bell or Marion, but if he can get his own shot, and it's a good one, he's taking it. Over anything else, that subtle change in Nash's mind-set -- basically, a complete refusal to accept anything less than a championship, even if it means some occasional selfishness -- kicked this Phoenix team into another gear. Remember when Nash scored 48 in the playoff loss to Dallas two years ago? He was horrified and even a little embarrassed afterward, right?

Now, he'd probably be pissed that he didn't get 50.

That's the biggest difference between the 2006 Suns and the 2007 Suns, with Nash's haircut symbolizing everything -- they play with a chip on their shoulder. They want to run teams off the floor. They want to break their will. For instance, Cleveland came to Phoenix last Thursday for a nationally televised game, and since the Cavs had been playing well and showing signs of running away with the East, it looked like a good test for the cruising Suns. Instead, it turned into a nonstop layup line. By the end of the first half, Phoenix was winning by 26. And I learned three things from that game:

1. The Suns dismantled Cleveland effortlessly, like they were plucking wings off a butterfly or something. I don't even think they shifted past third gear the entire game. That was truly scary -- not for me but for everyone else in the league.

2. The Cavs were demolished to the degree that they can't be taken seriously for the rest of the season. This game was more one-sided than the Awvee Storey-Martynas Andriuskevicius fight.

3. There was one moment when everything kicked into a higher gear for the Suns and they started rolling off easy basket after easy basket -- really, it was breathtaking to watch -- and eventually, their fans stood up and just kept cheering and cheering, even during a break in the action, just to profusely thank the players for what was happening. And I was sitting on my sofa thinking, "During the Bird Era, this happened ALL THE TIME. They'd get it going, great things would happen, and we'd stand up and cheer and cheer because we couldn't think of another way to adequately express how fortunate we were other than to just start throwing money on the court. And now, it's happening in Phoenix and I'm jealous as hell."

Which brings me to my main point ...

It's nearly impossible to compare players and teams from different eras because the game continues to evolve in ways that nobody ever imagined. Tuesday night, I watched a triple-OT game between Texas and Oklahoma State where a 6-foot-11, 190-pound forward (the outrageously talented Durant, my current basketball obsession other than the Suns) scored 37 points on an eclectic mix of 25-footers, spin moves, jump hooks and drives to either side. He did everything facing the basket. He looked like a 6-foot-11 Tracy McGrady. Trust me when I tell you this: We've never seen anyone remotely resembling Kevin Durant on a basketball court before. If you stuck him in a time machine and transported him back to the Russell-Chamberlain Era, he'd probably average 55 points a game. Just the mere thought of his putting on a Celtics jersey makes me want to start sobbing with joy.
Shawn Marion, Raja Bell, Boris Diaw
Barry Gossage/Getty Images
No one will be able to ignore the Suns this spring.

Anyway, because the game keeps evolving and improving, you can only compare the impact of players and teams relative to the time in which they played. Would the '86 Celtics have beaten the '96 Bulls in a seven-game series? Too difficult to say. For instance, Pippen would have guarded Bird in that series, and there wasn't anyone remotely resembling Scottie Pippen in 1986. So how could you know? Compare their relative impacts and it's a different story. The '86 Celtics were greater than the '96 Bulls because they excelled against tougher competition, they were invincible at home (50-1 at home if you include playoff games) and their top-six was better than Chicago's top-six. You will never convince me otherwise. But the one thing that separated those mid-'80s Celtics and Lakers teams from everyone after them was that sixth gear: You never knew when they would throw together one of those four-minute stretches, turn the game into a layup line and blow somebody off the court.

(In fact, that Celtics team was so loaded that they screwed around during games, almost like musicians jamming near the end of a song. During a recent NBA TV interview with Bird for the Legend's 50th birthday, Bill Walton and Bird reminisced about the time Bird set goals for their West Coast trip, decided he would average 42 points a game for the trip, then got bored midway through and decided to shoot all left-handed shots in Portland. And he did just that. This actually happened.)

Now the Suns are approaching that hallowed level and I never thought we'd see something like that again -- not with 30 teams, not with a salary cap, not with the lottery system, not when teams are so much smarter about not giving away future lottery picks for the likes of Don Ford and Gerald Henderson. If the Suns stay healthy, they should win 67-70 games and nobody should touch them in the playoffs except for Dallas, the one contender that can dictate a specific tempo and force its opponents to abide by it. Still, I can't imagine the Suns blowing a seven-game series -- not with their style of play (impossible to stop), not with the way they shoot free throws (everyone in the top six is over 80 percent except for Diaw), not with everyone they can throw at Nowitzki, not with Nash's new and improved killer instinct. Even their team defense has improved to the point that Barkley doesn't dismiss them anymore. They're a juggernaut with a terrific coach and no real holes other than a thin bench.

Of course, the Suns can guarantee immortality with one move: Thanks to the Diaw-Johnson trade, they own Atlanta's 2007 No. 1 pick unless it falls in the top three. Say they packaged that pick with Kurt Thomas' expiring contract and/or Banks' contract for one more blue-chipper. What would happen if they added Rashard Lewis or Mike Miller, gave one of them James Jones' minutes (20-25 a game), then went seven-deep the rest of the way? Starting Nash, Stoudemire, Diaw, Bell and Marion, with Miller/Lewis and Barbosa coming off the bench, nobody would play more than 38 minutes or less than 25, and there wouldn't be a bad shooter or a bad all-around player in the bunch. Five of the seven players would be shooting over 40 percent from 3-pointers. They could go small, they could go big, they could play fast or slow, they could do anything they wanted. They'd be the Dirk Diggler of NBA teams.

Look, my NBA life is in complete shambles. My beloved Celtics might be the worst team in the league and I spend far too much time thinking about an 18-year-old kid in Austin who could save them some day. The Clippers are playing such uninspired, mediocre basketball that it's not even fun to attend their games, even as an unbiased observer. My favorite commissioner has endured some rare misfires and was recently pulled over for being drunk with power. The whole season has been a disaster. Other than Gilbert Arenas screaming "Hibachi!" and Isiah making one last boneheaded trade, all I have to look forward until next June's draft are the Suns and their quest for greatness.

So for my sake, make one more move, Phoenix. You owe it to Nash, you owe it to D'Antoni and the Suns fans, you owe it to me, and you owe it to every other diehard basketball fan who loves this game and never imagined we would see another invincible team. All 19 of us.


I actually went to the game in bold....it was amazing. Spurs fans have literally no idea what basketball can be like.

[CarefreeAZ]

His best years were on the Nets, retard.

No wonder Arizona was ranked the dumbest state in U.S.

If were talking about retarded - than were talking about most of your post's I've seen on this forum DINGO.

Steve Nash = Good flopper. Manu Ginobli = most retarded flopper. Even if you get shot by a bullet, you can't recreate the shit that Ginobli does.

Whinniest Bitches = Popovich and Duncan. No other team in the league rides the officials like these two do. Every play, Every whistle. Just give the ref 100 bucks before the game and get it over with so we don't have to watch that display.

By the way - Was at Oregon State when Gary Payton played. Although defensively he is one of the toughest and Nash does not even compare. Gary Payton is no where near Steve when it comes to shooting accuracy. Steve also wins hands-down for his ridiculous way of passing and making everyone on the team better.

[Kermit]

I'm looking forward to the day when I can lurk and not see one thread with the word Phoenix or Suns in it started by a Spur. We're border-line obsessed.

[lotr1trekkie]

RACK Mark in Austin! Suns fans are like a virgins who has never scored. Without Nash they never will. Cuban should trade Dirt for Nash headsup and he would have a better chance of winning a title. Nash for Dirt? Would you do it????????

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

I went to the bank today to deposit Matthew's phat check to yours truly and asked the teller the date. She cheerily reported that it was July 23rd.

July 23rd? Really?

And people are still whining about the God forsaken Phoenix Suns? What's the problem here? Nobody in America cares about baseball anymore or something? Is everyone trying really hard to ignore the fact that Barry Bonds is about to pass that ol' curmudgeon Hank Aaron for the all time home run record? Is the Mike Vick situation too sticky to think about and debate without delving into all kinds of racial stereotypes and cannonballing ourselves into murky social waters?

What is the dealio, yo?

Yeah, so apparently the league has (had) a dirty ref. At least that means he had a reason to suck. That leaves twenty or thirty more of them who are just flat out incompetent. What's their excuse?

Me, I don't think this is the end of the world. He wasn't a premier zebra and didn't work that many important games. His last playoff game worked in 06-07 was Game 3 of our Western Conference semi-final. Not exactly a high-status gig. Obviously his superiors were so thrilled with his performance in the contest that they informed him that his season was over afterward.

Like Anne Frank, I like to think that people are basically good until they give me a reason not to. So for now, until I get more evidence to the contrary, I will choose to believe this was just one scumbag, acting alone. He has in all likelihood committed a serious crime here, but in all seriousness, none of his deeds altered the scope of history all that much.

To this day I can tell you with a straight face and total conviction that Joey Crawford had more of an influence on the Suns/Spurs series than Tim Donaghy did because if it wasn't for Crawford acting like a total hothead in the April 15th game at Dallas and ejecting Duncan, the Spurs might very well have had the two seed and home court advantage in the second round.

One fellow who is predictably making a huuuuuuuge mountain about this (most likely because he's afraid to jinx his beloved Red Sox by writing a column about them) mole hill is Bill Simmons. He wrote a scathing article about the whole affair, focusing largely on Game 3, and basically took a huge steaming dump on our team and the legitimacy of our fourth title. If you're keeping track at home, the Spurs have only won two championships since neither the 1999 nor 2007 seasons in actuality ever "happened."

That's still two more than Dallas or Phoenix, of course, but I don't need to tell you that.

Personally, I think the NBA should conduct two separate banner/ring/trophy ceremonies every season. One, as per custom, will still be given to the team that wins the NBA Finals, and the other will be awarded to the squad Bill Simmons, President of the Sports Universe, deems worthy.

For this season the Bill Simmons Championship would obviously go to the Suns, last year's would have gone to the Mavs, and in 1999 we'd give one to, I dunno, the Celtics I guess. Because we all feel terrible about Len Bias and Reggie Lewis, really. Their premature deaths were the biggest tragedy in the history of the world you know. Well, outside of Boston not getting the 1st or 2nd pick in this lottery, that is.

Anyway, if Steve Nash and co. want to use the Donaghy thing as an excuse for losing, that's fine with me. Excuses are for losers. I watched every minute of that series and as I remember it, the Spurs prevailed mainly because Amare still sucks on defense, Shawn Marion always comes up small when it counts, Tony dominated Barbosa on both ends of the court, and Raja Bell couldn't guard Manu at all in Games 5 or 6. Oh, and Mike D'Antoni killed them the whole series. Anyone here remember it differently?

Simmons made excuse after excuse for the Suns, covering up for all their failures and conveniently ignoring all the tiny details that hurt his argument. Let's take them one by one.

He says the Suns would've won game 1 if Nash didn't get hurt. I hate to break it to you Bill, but not only were the Spurs winning the game at the time of Nash's injury, (self-inflicted by the way) but he was out for only 45 seconds total and those crooked NBA refs you're so low on made every allowance they could to get him back in the game, blatantly delaying action like umpires stopping to sweep home plate so a catcher can recover from a foul ball to the groin. No matter how much time they gave him, Nash and the trainer couldn't stop the bleeding.

Whose fault is that?

And you know what? As far as Game 1 goes, having Nash on the bench wasn't exactly a handicap for Phoenix. He sucked that game and finished with a -12 while his backup, Barbosa was +4.

Going into the series, most of the experts picked the Spurs to win because they were the tougher, more defensive minded, more experienced team (kinda like your old Celtics, eh Bill?). Game 1 was a chance for the Suns to make a statement on their home floor and they, and particularly their leader, came out flat and laid an egg. The Spurs stomped on them easily without Manu even playing all that well.

Game 2 was a legitamate beatdown for the Suns, and they did what they had to do, salvaging one home game. The Spurs never looked very crisp or into it and one got the impression that they were satisfied with themselves getting the one road win.

That brings us to Game 3, and Simmons' apopylectic shitfit. Yes, there were a few bad calls in the game, as there are in every game. But looking at the supposed Zapruder film on Youtube, nothing strikes me as that egregious besides the one Ginobili play. And even in that one, the issue wasn't that a foul was called, (Manu certainly thought there was, judging by his reaction) but the timing of it, with Donaghy blowing the whistle well after the shot attempt.

What's funny about the rest of the plays though is that A) they're mostly no-calls on 50/50 plays against the Spurs defense and B) Donaghy isn't the one making the calls, it's Eddie F. Rush. I guess he was in on it too.

People are making a big deal that Amare Stoudemire played only 21 minutes in this game because of foul trouble, but nobody brings up the fact that Amare was second in all of the NBA in fouls committed last season. Also, he's the bright individual that got himself suspended in Game 4.

Here's my crazy conspiracy theory, ready? Maybe, just maybe, Amare only played 21 minutes because Amare is really fucking stupid.

Whoa.

You know what's really hilarious? The worst non-call of the game wasn't even mentioned by Simmons or the Youtube clip. Raja Bell raked Manu across the face and practically gouged out his eye (remember the cut?) in the 3rd quarter. Nobody called a foul even though the evidence was pretty hard to refute afterward. Funny how nobody is bringing that play up, huh? In fact, what happened in the aftermath of that non-call is what won the game for the Spurs, not a crooked ref. Gino was so pissed off that he exploded for like 8 points in 40 seconds or something at the end of the 3rd quarter and the Spurs turned a tight game into a relatively routine playoff win.

Still, Simmons' rationalization for why "the bad refs" were sent to work Game 3 is ridiculous. Despite their Game 2 loss, the Spurs weren't the team that had anything to prove, Phoenix was. They were the wimps and chokers without the rings, not us. Show me one person, TSG included, who thought the Suns were still going to win that series after Game 1. The way Bill makes it sound, the league was afraid of Phoenix blowing past the Spurs 4-1 and sent the pro-home refs to give the feeble Spurs a chance to prolong the series before eventually succumbing to their mighty nectarine-and-plum clad conquerors in Game 6 or 7. Gimme a break. If the NBA was interested in a long series, they would have assigned road-friendly refs, if there even is such a thing, to Game 3. All the pressure to win in that situation is on the team that lost home court advantage. You give them Game 3 so they can relax and make the underdog play their tails off in Game 4 to send the series back 2-2.

Anyway, nward we go to Game 4. TSG makes it sound like that the Suns, finally given proper refs to work with, boatraced us in this game since they were the clearly superior team. Is he smoking crack? We were winning the whole game, and up by double digits for a huge chunk of it. We totally collapsed in the last eight minutes (you want to talk about some bad calls, go watch this one again, good lord) and the Suns outright stole the game.

Does anyone remember the actual game? No. All people talk about is the Nash/Robert Horry play, otherwise known as, "THE DIRTIEST, HARDEST, AND MOST FLAGRANT FOUL EVER COMMITTED."

What started as a simple hard foul became a month-long news story for three reasons, all having to do with the Suns. 1) Nash totally embellished the foul and pretended to be in a lot of pain, even though he got up pretty damn quickly when 2) Bell went after Horry after the play, turning it into an altercation leading to 3) Amare and Diaw stupidly leaving the bench and getting themselves suspended.

What's ironic to me about the suspensions is that with everyone questioning the integrity of the NBA in general and David Stern in particular, it took a lot of guts and ethics to do what he did. Think about it, why would this guy purposefully pull the strings for the Spurs? What's in it for him? Our team gets NO ratings. We play a slowdown style, our players don't say or do anything outrageous, and our coach shuns the media like a plague. ESPN can't stand us, and the public won't watch us. Our players are known as either shameless and balding floppers, dirty thugs, whiners, or emotionless automatons. Our point guard is only "NOW" because he's married to a woman everyone wants to sleep with.

Somebody give me one selfish or business-driven reason why Stern would want the Spurs in the NBA Finals. Go ahead, I've got all day.

He suspended Amare and Boris not because there's a conspiracy or because he wanted the Spurs to win. He suspended them because they broke a rule. David Stern isn't stupid. He knew that 90% of the people watching that series were rooting for the Suns. But rules are rules and the leaving the bench rule is a good one for the league; a concept that Bill Simmons and most of the gang at ESPN just can't seem to swallow because it - GASP! - happened in a playoff game and it was a spur of the moment thing.

Because you know, most brawls and fights like the Knicks/Nuggets thing or the Malice in the Palace are choreographed and planned well in advance.

I commend Stern for having the stones to suspend Amare, knowing the heat he would face for it and going through with it anyway. It's disingenuous of Simmons to bring up the suspension when it has nothing to do with the Donaghy controversy and laughable for him to group Diaw in with Stoudemire as "one of the Suns main guys." Mind you that this is the same Boris Diaw that Bill made fat jokes about the whole season and whom the Suns were desperately trying to unload during the offseason. For God sakes, I think Horry was more valuable to us than Diaw was to them, and the only reason he got a two game suspension (the Warriors alone committed a half dozen fouls in their five game series with the Jazz that were more egregious than Horry's by the way) was to make the thing look more palatable.

All you need to know about the Game 5 suspensions was that the NBA board of governors had a chance this past month to change or alter the rule and they decided not to. All of the whining and complaining was sound and fury, signifying nothing.

As for Game 5 itself, the culprits weren't Stern or the refs. The guy who blew that game was D'Antoni, plain and simple. He only played six guys (his main three of Nash, Marion and Bell all played 46+ mins) and his guys were completely tapped out in the second half. In the 2nd quarter with a 15 to 20 point lead, there was no reason for D'Antoni to not give Pat Burke and Jalen Rose a few spot minutes. No matter how poorly they did, it's not like they were in a position to kill the team right then. D'Antoni's lack of trust in his bench has crippled the Suns for three years running now and it boggles my mind that nobody took him to task for how he totally mismanaged such a critical, winnable game. A coach can't react to two rotation players being out by simply doling out their minutes to the other six. You have a 12 man roster for a reason and if you can't trust over a third of your guys for even a couple of minutes with a huge lead, then perhaps someone else should be brought in to do the GM job.

Oh right, that happened.

Simmons' assertion that the Suns would've cruised in Game 5 is asinine given how easily the Spurs won Games 1, 3, and 6 and how they were winning most of Game 4. The only contest, out of six, that the Suns won undisputed was Game 2. They got Amare back and all that changed was both teams scored a lot more points. You didn't need to have a ref on the inside to predict that one.

The better team won the series, and I wish ESPN and all the Suns bandwagoners could just accept it already. If y'all want rings, then perhaps you should tell your superduperstars to play a little defense and tell your coach to act like a leader of men instead of Yosemite Sam on speed.

It's sad how brainwashed Simmons has become by the worldwide leader and the LA lifestyle. He claims to be a Celtics fan, but he roots for Showtime basketball, style over substance. The Spurs can get stops when they have to have them and they can score when it matters most, from inside or outside, from their bigs or their smalls, from their stars to their role players. No other NBA team can claim such a thing.

How someone brought up rooting for Bird's Celtics and currently enjoying the Belichick Patriots run can engage in such a blatent, fraudulent crusade to shit on the Spurs run is beyond me.

Simmons' trademark line, for years, has been, "As always, I'm an idiot."

No kidding.

Simmons slobs sons knobs (http://www.poundingtherock.com/)

[SRJ]

I went to the bank today to deposit Matthew's phat check to yours truly and asked the teller the date. She cheerily reported that it was July 23rd.

July 23rd? Really?

And people are still whining about the God forsaken Phoenix Suns? What's the problem here? Nobody in America cares about baseball anymore or something? Is everyone trying really hard to ignore the fact that Barry Bonds is about to pass that ol' curmudgeon Hank Aaron for the all time home run record? Is the Mike Vick situation too sticky to think about and debate without delving into all kinds of racial stereotypes and cannonballing ourselves into murky social waters?

What is the dealio, yo?

Yeah, so apparently the league has (had) a dirty ref. At least that means he had a reason to suck. That leaves twenty or thirty more of them who are just flat out incompetent. What's their excuse?

Me, I don't think this is the end of the world. He wasn't a premier zebra and didn't work that many important games. His last playoff game worked in 06-07 was Game 3 of our Western Conference semi-final. Not exactly a high-status gig. Obviously his superiors were so thrilled with his performance in the contest that they informed him that his season was over afterward.

Like Anne Frank, I like to think that people are basically good until they give me a reason not to. So for now, until I get more evidence to the contrary, I will choose to believe this was just one scumbag, acting alone. He has in all likelihood committed a serious crime here, but in all seriousness, none of his deeds altered the scope of history all that much.

To this day I can tell you with a straight face and total conviction that Joey Crawford had more of an influence on the Suns/Spurs series than Tim Donaghy did because if it wasn't for Crawford acting like a total hothead in the April 15th game at Dallas and ejecting Duncan, the Spurs might very well have had the two seed and home court advantage in the second round.

One fellow who is predictably making a huuuuuuuge mountain about this (most likely because he's afraid to jinx his beloved Red Sox by writing a column about them) mole hill is Bill Simmons. He wrote a scathing article about the whole affair, focusing largely on Game 3, and basically took a huge steaming dump on our team and the legitimacy of our fourth title. If you're keeping track at home, the Spurs have only won two championships since neither the 1999 nor 2007 seasons in actuality ever "happened."

That's still two more than Dallas or Phoenix, of course, but I don't need to tell you that.

Personally, I think the NBA should conduct two separate banner/ring/trophy ceremonies every season. One, as per custom, will still be given to the team that wins the NBA Finals, and the other will be awarded to the squad Bill Simmons, President of the Sports Universe, deems worthy.

For this season the Bill Simmons Championship would obviously go to the Suns, last year's would have gone to the Mavs, and in 1999 we'd give one to, I dunno, the Celtics I guess. Because we all feel terrible about Len Bias and Reggie Lewis, really. Their premature deaths were the biggest tragedy in the history of the world you know. Well, outside of Boston not getting the 1st or 2nd pick in this lottery, that is.

Anyway, if Steve Nash and co. want to use the Donaghy thing as an excuse for losing, that's fine with me. Excuses are for losers. I watched every minute of that series and as I remember it, the Spurs prevailed mainly because Amare still sucks on defense, Shawn Marion always comes up small when it counts, Tony dominated Barbosa on both ends of the court, and Raja Bell couldn't guard Manu at all in Games 5 or 6. Oh, and Mike D'Antoni killed them the whole series. Anyone here remember it differently?

Simmons made excuse after excuse for the Suns, covering up for all their failures and conveniently ignoring all the tiny details that hurt his argument. Let's take them one by one.

He says the Suns would've won game 1 if Nash didn't get hurt. I hate to break it to you Bill, but not only were the Spurs winning the game at the time of Nash's injury, (self-inflicted by the way) but he was out for only 45 seconds total and those crooked NBA refs you're so low on made every allowance they could to get him back in the game, blatantly delaying action like umpires stopping to sweep home plate so a catcher can recover from a foul ball to the groin. No matter how much time they gave him, Nash and the trainer couldn't stop the bleeding.

Whose fault is that?

And you know what? As far as Game 1 goes, having Nash on the bench wasn't exactly a handicap for Phoenix. He sucked that game and finished with a -12 while his backup, Barbosa was +4.

Going into the series, most of the experts picked the Spurs to win because they were the tougher, more defensive minded, more experienced team (kinda like your old Celtics, eh Bill?). Game 1 was a chance for the Suns to make a statement on their home floor and they, and particularly their leader, came out flat and laid an egg. The Spurs stomped on them easily without Manu even playing all that well.

Game 2 was a legitamate beatdown for the Suns, and they did what they had to do, salvaging one home game. The Spurs never looked very crisp or into it and one got the impression that they were satisfied with themselves getting the one road win.

That brings us to Game 3, and Simmons' apopylectic shitfit. Yes, there were a few bad calls in the game, as there are in every game. But looking at the supposed Zapruder film on Youtube, nothing strikes me as that egregious besides the one Ginobili play. And even in that one, the issue wasn't that a foul was called, (Manu certainly thought there was, judging by his reaction) but the timing of it, with Donaghy blowing the whistle well after the shot attempt.

What's funny about the rest of the plays though is that A) they're mostly no-calls on 50/50 plays against the Spurs defense and B) Donaghy isn't the one making the calls, it's Eddie F. Rush. I guess he was in on it too.

People are making a big deal that Amare Stoudemire played only 21 minutes in this game because of foul trouble, but nobody brings up the fact that Amare was second in all of the NBA in fouls committed last season. Also, he's the bright individual that got himself suspended in Game 4.

Here's my crazy conspiracy theory, ready? Maybe, just maybe, Amare only played 21 minutes because Amare is really fucking stupid.

Whoa.

You know what's really hilarious? The worst non-call of the game wasn't even mentioned by Simmons or the Youtube clip. Raja Bell raked Manu across the face and practically gouged out his eye (remember the cut?) in the 3rd quarter. Nobody called a foul even though the evidence was pretty hard to refute afterward. Funny how nobody is bringing that play up, huh? In fact, what happened in the aftermath of that non-call is what won the game for the Spurs, not a crooked ref. Gino was so pissed off that he exploded for like 8 points in 40 seconds or something at the end of the 3rd quarter and the Spurs turned a tight game into a relatively routine playoff win.

Still, Simmons' rationalization for why "the bad refs" were sent to work Game 3 is ridiculous. Despite their Game 2 loss, the Spurs weren't the team that had anything to prove, Phoenix was. They were the wimps and chokers without the rings, not us. Show me one person, TSG included, who thought the Suns were still going to win that series after Game 1. The way Bill makes it sound, the league was afraid of Phoenix blowing past the Spurs 4-1 and sent the pro-home refs to give the feeble Spurs a chance to prolong the series before eventually succumbing to their mighty nectarine-and-plum clad conquerors in Game 6 or 7. Gimme a break. If the NBA was interested in a long series, they would have assigned road-friendly refs, if there even is such a thing, to Game 3. All the pressure to win in that situation is on the team that lost home court advantage. You give them Game 3 so they can relax and make the underdog play their tails off in Game 4 to send the series back 2-2.

Anyway, nward we go to Game 4. TSG makes it sound like that the Suns, finally given proper refs to work with, boatraced us in this game since they were the clearly superior team. Is he smoking crack? We were winning the whole game, and up by double digits for a huge chunk of it. We totally collapsed in the last eight minutes (you want to talk about some bad calls, go watch this one again, good lord) and the Suns outright stole the game.

Does anyone remember the actual game? No. All people talk about is the Nash/Robert Horry play, otherwise known as, "THE DIRTIEST, HARDEST, AND MOST FLAGRANT FOUL EVER COMMITTED."

What started as a simple hard foul became a month-long news story for three reasons, all having to do with the Suns. 1) Nash totally embellished the foul and pretended to be in a lot of pain, even though he got up pretty damn quickly when 2) Bell went after Horry after the play, turning it into an altercation leading to 3) Amare and Diaw stupidly leaving the bench and getting themselves suspended.

What's ironic to me about the suspensions is that with everyone questioning the integrity of the NBA in general and David Stern in particular, it took a lot of guts and ethics to do what he did. Think about it, why would this guy purposefully pull the strings for the Spurs? What's in it for him? Our team gets NO ratings. We play a slowdown style, our players don't say or do anything outrageous, and our coach shuns the media like a plague. ESPN can't stand us, and the public won't watch us. Our players are known as either shameless and balding floppers, dirty thugs, whiners, or emotionless automatons. Our point guard is only "NOW" because he's married to a woman everyone wants to sleep with.

Somebody give me one selfish or business-driven reason why Stern would want the Spurs in the NBA Finals. Go ahead, I've got all day.

He suspended Amare and Boris not because there's a conspiracy or because he wanted the Spurs to win. He suspended them because they broke a rule. David Stern isn't stupid. He knew that 90% of the people watching that series were rooting for the Suns. But rules are rules and the leaving the bench rule is a good one for the league; a concept that Bill Simmons and most of the gang at ESPN just can't seem to swallow because it - GASP! - happened in a playoff game and it was a spur of the moment thing.

Because you know, most brawls and fights like the Knicks/Nuggets thing or the Malice in the Palace are choreographed and planned well in advance.

I commend Stern for having the stones to suspend Amare, knowing the heat he would face for it and going through with it anyway. It's disingenuous of Simmons to bring up the suspension when it has nothing to do with the Donaghy controversy and laughable for him to group Diaw in with Stoudemire as "one of the Suns main guys." Mind you that this is the same Boris Diaw that Bill made fat jokes about the whole season and whom the Suns were desperately trying to unload during the offseason. For God sakes, I think Horry was more valuable to us than Diaw was to them, and the only reason he got a two game suspension (the Warriors alone committed a half dozen fouls in their five game series with the Jazz that were more egregious than Horry's by the way) was to make the thing look more palatable.

All you need to know about the Game 5 suspensions was that the NBA board of governors had a chance this past month to change or alter the rule and they decided not to. All of the whining and complaining was sound and fury, signifying nothing.

As for Game 5 itself, the culprits weren't Stern or the refs. The guy who blew that game was D'Antoni, plain and simple. He only played six guys (his main three of Nash, Marion and Bell all played 46+ mins) and his guys were completely tapped out in the second half. In the 2nd quarter with a 15 to 20 point lead, there was no reason for D'Antoni to not give Pat Burke and Jalen Rose a few spot minutes. No matter how poorly they did, it's not like they were in a position to kill the team right then. D'Antoni's lack of trust in his bench has crippled the Suns for three years running now and it boggles my mind that nobody took him to task for how he totally mismanaged such a critical, winnable game. A coach can't react to two rotation players being out by simply doling out their minutes to the other six. You have a 12 man roster for a reason and if you can't trust over a third of your guys for even a couple of minutes with a huge lead, then perhaps someone else should be brought in to do the GM job.

Oh right, that happened.

Simmons' assertion that the Suns would've cruised in Game 5 is asinine given how easily the Spurs won Games 1, 3, and 6 and how they were winning most of Game 4. The only contest, out of six, that the Suns won undisputed was Game 2. They got Amare back and all that changed was both teams scored a lot more points. You didn't need to have a ref on the inside to predict that one.

The better team won the series, and I wish ESPN and all the Suns bandwagoners could just accept it already. If y'all want rings, then perhaps you should tell your superduperstars to play a little defense and tell your coach to act like a leader of men instead of Yosemite Sam on speed.

It's sad how brainwashed Simmons has become by the worldwide leader and the LA lifestyle. He claims to be a Celtics fan, but he roots for Showtime basketball, style over substance. The Spurs can get stops when they have to have them and they can score when it matters most, from inside or outside, from their bigs or their smalls, from their stars to their role players. No other NBA team can claim such a thing.

How someone brought up rooting for Bird's Celtics and currently enjoying the Belichick Patriots run can engage in such a blatent, fraudulent crusade to shit on the Spurs run is beyond me.

Simmons' trademark line, for years, has been, "As always, I'm an idiot."

No kidding.

This was a perfect post from PTR.

[UV Ray]

I'm looking forward to the day when I can lurk and not see one thread with the word Phoenix or Suns in it started by a Spur. We're border-line obsessed.

That's pretty funny. :lol

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

Now will you suns girls just stfu and come back when you win 4 NBA championships. Strike that, your pissant organization ain't got the mettle. Come back if you ever win one. Until then bow to your daddy.

I'll take substance over style any day. Wise choice grasshopper. Nash and any of you wannabees are welcomed to stop by our beautiful city and enjoy our San Antonio Spur's throphies any day.

[baseline bum]

The Spurs are the Suns' nemesis, but it doesn't work both ways. The Suns are not a legitimate rival to the Spurs, any more than the Bucks or Hawks were legitimate rivals to the Celtics in the 1980's. The more applicable term is "also-ran."

Plus Phoenicians are whiny, gutless pussies not worthy of the respect that a rivalry would connote.

The Bucks swept Bird and the Celtics in 83. The Bucks were more Boston's rival than Phoenix is the Spurs' :lol

[leemajors]

I can't relate. I always drink American.
the best foreign beer is rarely found in green bottles anyway.

[yourcheatinheart]

I went to the bank today to deposit Matthew's phat check to yours truly and asked the teller the date. She cheerily reported that it was July 23rd.

July 23rd? Really?

And people are still whining about the God forsaken Phoenix Suns? What's the problem here? Nobody in America cares about baseball anymore or something? Is everyone trying really hard to ignore the fact that Barry Bonds is about to pass that ol' curmudgeon Hank Aaron for the all time home run record? Is the Mike Vick situation too sticky to think about and debate without delving into all kinds of racial stereotypes and cannonballing ourselves into murky social waters?

What is the dealio, yo?

Yeah, so apparently the league has (had) a dirty ref. At least that means he had a reason to suck. That leaves twenty or thirty more of them who are just flat out incompetent. What's their excuse?

Me, I don't think this is the end of the world. He wasn't a premier zebra and didn't work that many important games. His last playoff game worked in 06-07 was Game 3 of our Western Conference semi-final. Not exactly a high-status gig. Obviously his superiors were so thrilled with his performance in the contest that they informed him that his season was over afterward.

Like Anne Frank, I like to think that people are basically good until they give me a reason not to. So for now, until I get more evidence to the contrary, I will choose to believe this was just one scumbag, acting alone. He has in all likelihood committed a serious crime here, but in all seriousness, none of his deeds altered the scope of history all that much.

To this day I can tell you with a straight face and total conviction that Joey Crawford had more of an influence on the Suns/Spurs series than Tim Donaghy did because if it wasn't for Crawford acting like a total hothead in the April 15th game at Dallas and ejecting Duncan, the Spurs might very well have had the two seed and home court advantage in the second round.

One fellow who is predictably making a huuuuuuuge mountain about this (most likely because he's afraid to jinx his beloved Red Sox by writing a column about them) mole hill is Bill Simmons. He wrote a scathing article about the whole affair, focusing largely on Game 3, and basically took a huge steaming dump on our team and the legitimacy of our fourth title. If you're keeping track at home, the Spurs have only won two championships since neither the 1999 nor 2007 seasons in actuality ever "happened."

That's still two more than Dallas or Phoenix, of course, but I don't need to tell you that.

Personally, I think the NBA should conduct two separate banner/ring/trophy ceremonies every season. One, as per custom, will still be given to the team that wins the NBA Finals, and the other will be awarded to the squad Bill Simmons, President of the Sports Universe, deems worthy.

For this season the Bill Simmons Championship would obviously go to the Suns, last year's would have gone to the Mavs, and in 1999 we'd give one to, I dunno, the Celtics I guess. Because we all feel terrible about Len Bias and Reggie Lewis, really. Their premature deaths were the biggest tragedy in the history of the world you know. Well, outside of Boston not getting the 1st or 2nd pick in this lottery, that is.

Anyway, if Steve Nash and co. want to use the Donaghy thing as an excuse for losing, that's fine with me. Excuses are for losers. I watched every minute of that series and as I remember it, the Spurs prevailed mainly because Amare still sucks on defense, Shawn Marion always comes up small when it counts, Tony dominated Barbosa on both ends of the court, and Raja Bell couldn't guard Manu at all in Games 5 or 6. Oh, and Mike D'Antoni killed them the whole series. Anyone here remember it differently?

Simmons made excuse after excuse for the Suns, covering up for all their failures and conveniently ignoring all the tiny details that hurt his argument. Let's take them one by one.

He says the Suns would've won game 1 if Nash didn't get hurt. I hate to break it to you Bill, but not only were the Spurs winning the game at the time of Nash's injury, (self-inflicted by the way) but he was out for only 45 seconds total and those crooked NBA refs you're so low on made every allowance they could to get him back in the game, blatantly delaying action like umpires stopping to sweep home plate so a catcher can recover from a foul ball to the groin. No matter how much time they gave him, Nash and the trainer couldn't stop the bleeding.

Whose fault is that?

And you know what? As far as Game 1 goes, having Nash on the bench wasn't exactly a handicap for Phoenix. He sucked that game and finished with a -12 while his backup, Barbosa was +4.

Going into the series, most of the experts picked the Spurs to win because they were the tougher, more defensive minded, more experienced team (kinda like your old Celtics, eh Bill?). Game 1 was a chance for the Suns to make a statement on their home floor and they, and particularly their leader, came out flat and laid an egg. The Spurs stomped on them easily without Manu even playing all that well.

Game 2 was a legitamate beatdown for the Suns, and they did what they had to do, salvaging one home game. The Spurs never looked very crisp or into it and one got the impression that they were satisfied with themselves getting the one road win.

That brings us to Game 3, and Simmons' apopylectic shitfit. Yes, there were a few bad calls in the game, as there are in every game. But looking at the supposed Zapruder film on Youtube, nothing strikes me as that egregious besides the one Ginobili play. And even in that one, the issue wasn't that a foul was called, (Manu certainly thought there was, judging by his reaction) but the timing of it, with Donaghy blowing the whistle well after the shot attempt.

What's funny about the rest of the plays though is that A) they're mostly no-calls on 50/50 plays against the Spurs defense and B) Donaghy isn't the one making the calls, it's Eddie F. Rush. I guess he was in on it too.

People are making a big deal that Amare Stoudemire played only 21 minutes in this game because of foul trouble, but nobody brings up the fact that Amare was second in all of the NBA in fouls committed last season. Also, he's the bright individual that got himself suspended in Game 4.

Here's my crazy conspiracy theory, ready? Maybe, just maybe, Amare only played 21 minutes because Amare is really fucking stupid.

Whoa.

You know what's really hilarious? The worst non-call of the game wasn't even mentioned by Simmons or the Youtube clip. Raja Bell raked Manu across the face and practically gouged out his eye (remember the cut?) in the 3rd quarter. Nobody called a foul even though the evidence was pretty hard to refute afterward. Funny how nobody is bringing that play up, huh? In fact, what happened in the aftermath of that non-call is what won the game for the Spurs, not a crooked ref. Gino was so pissed off that he exploded for like 8 points in 40 seconds or something at the end of the 3rd quarter and the Spurs turned a tight game into a relatively routine playoff win.

Still, Simmons' rationalization for why "the bad refs" were sent to work Game 3 is ridiculous. Despite their Game 2 loss, the Spurs weren't the team that had anything to prove, Phoenix was. They were the wimps and chokers without the rings, not us. Show me one person, TSG included, who thought the Suns were still going to win that series after Game 1. The way Bill makes it sound, the league was afraid of Phoenix blowing past the Spurs 4-1 and sent the pro-home refs to give the feeble Spurs a chance to prolong the series before eventually succumbing to their mighty nectarine-and-plum clad conquerors in Game 6 or 7. Gimme a break. If the NBA was interested in a long series, they would have assigned road-friendly refs, if there even is such a thing, to Game 3. All the pressure to win in that situation is on the team that lost home court advantage. You give them Game 3 so they can relax and make the underdog play their tails off in Game 4 to send the series back 2-2.

Anyway, nward we go to Game 4. TSG makes it sound like that the Suns, finally given proper refs to work with, boatraced us in this game since they were the clearly superior team. Is he smoking crack? We were winning the whole game, and up by double digits for a huge chunk of it. We totally collapsed in the last eight minutes (you want to talk about some bad calls, go watch this one again, good lord) and the Suns outright stole the game.

Does anyone remember the actual game? No. All people talk about is the Nash/Robert Horry play, otherwise known as, "THE DIRTIEST, HARDEST, AND MOST FLAGRANT FOUL EVER COMMITTED."

What started as a simple hard foul became a month-long news story for three reasons, all having to do with the Suns. 1) Nash totally embellished the foul and pretended to be in a lot of pain, even though he got up pretty damn quickly when 2) Bell went after Horry after the play, turning it into an altercation leading to 3) Amare and Diaw stupidly leaving the bench and getting themselves suspended.

What's ironic to me about the suspensions is that with everyone questioning the integrity of the NBA in general and David Stern in particular, it took a lot of guts and ethics to do what he did. Think about it, why would this guy purposefully pull the strings for the Spurs? What's in it for him? Our team gets NO ratings. We play a slowdown style, our players don't say or do anything outrageous, and our coach shuns the media like a plague. ESPN can't stand us, and the public won't watch us. Our players are known as either shameless and balding floppers, dirty thugs, whiners, or emotionless automatons. Our point guard is only "NOW" because he's married to a woman everyone wants to sleep with.

Somebody give me one selfish or business-driven reason why Stern would want the Spurs in the NBA Finals. Go ahead, I've got all day.

He suspended Amare and Boris not because there's a conspiracy or because he wanted the Spurs to win. He suspended them because they broke a rule. David Stern isn't stupid. He knew that 90% of the people watching that series were rooting for the Suns. But rules are rules and the leaving the bench rule is a good one for the league; a concept that Bill Simmons and most of the gang at ESPN just can't seem to swallow because it - GASP! - happened in a playoff game and it was a spur of the moment thing.

Because you know, most brawls and fights like the Knicks/Nuggets thing or the Malice in the Palace are choreographed and planned well in advance.

I commend Stern for having the stones to suspend Amare, knowing the heat he would face for it and going through with it anyway. It's disingenuous of Simmons to bring up the suspension when it has nothing to do with the Donaghy controversy and laughable for him to group Diaw in with Stoudemire as "one of the Suns main guys." Mind you that this is the same Boris Diaw that Bill made fat jokes about the whole season and whom the Suns were desperately trying to unload during the offseason. For God sakes, I think Horry was more valuable to us than Diaw was to them, and the only reason he got a two game suspension (the Warriors alone committed a half dozen fouls in their five game series with the Jazz that were more egregious than Horry's by the way) was to make the thing look more palatable.

All you need to know about the Game 5 suspensions was that the NBA board of governors had a chance this past month to change or alter the rule and they decided not to. All of the whining and complaining was sound and fury, signifying nothing.

As for Game 5 itself, the culprits weren't Stern or the refs. The guy who blew that game was D'Antoni, plain and simple. He only played six guys (his main three of Nash, Marion and Bell all played 46+ mins) and his guys were completely tapped out in the second half. In the 2nd quarter with a 15 to 20 point lead, there was no reason for D'Antoni to not give Pat Burke and Jalen Rose a few spot minutes. No matter how poorly they did, it's not like they were in a position to kill the team right then. D'Antoni's lack of trust in his bench has crippled the Suns for three years running now and it boggles my mind that nobody took him to task for how he totally mismanaged such a critical, winnable game. A coach can't react to two rotation players being out by simply doling out their minutes to the other six. You have a 12 man roster for a reason and if you can't trust over a third of your guys for even a couple of minutes with a huge lead, then perhaps someone else should be brought in to do the GM job.

Oh right, that happened.

Simmons' assertion that the Suns would've cruised in Game 5 is asinine given how easily the Spurs won Games 1, 3, and 6 and how they were winning most of Game 4. The only contest, out of six, that the Suns won undisputed was Game 2. They got Amare back and all that changed was both teams scored a lot more points. You didn't need to have a ref on the inside to predict that one.

The better team won the series, and I wish ESPN and all the Suns bandwagoners could just accept it already. If y'all want rings, then perhaps you should tell your superduperstars to play a little defense and tell your coach to act like a leader of men instead of Yosemite Sam on speed.

It's sad how brainwashed Simmons has become by the worldwide leader and the LA lifestyle. He claims to be a Celtics fan, but he roots for Showtime basketball, style over substance. The Spurs can get stops when they have to have them and they can score when it matters most, from inside or outside, from their bigs or their smalls, from their stars to their role players. No other NBA team can claim such a thing.

How someone brought up rooting for Bird's Celtics and currently enjoying the Belichick Patriots run can engage in such a blatent, fraudulent crusade to shit on the Spurs run is beyond me.

Simmons' trademark line, for years, has been, "As always, I'm an idiot."

No kidding.

Simmons slobs sons knobs (http://www.poundingtherock.com/)


that post was as useless as bill simmons. go suns.

[remingtonbo2001]

They like weak, thin tortillas?

Figures. :lol

Their dentures cannot handle our thickness!

[Shred]

No, but it's an obsession that a Spurs fan posts an ARTICLE WRITTEN by someone in Phoenix? That's a first!

Now, an obsession is a stupid Phoenix fan named Shred, who hangs out on a Spurs board and calls the post of an article by a Phoenix writer obsessive. What a tool you are.

We have another contestant for the Internet Tough Guy Award.

[Shred]

I don't want to get into the childish debate that a few people have decided to engage in, but I will just say that after living in both Phoenix and Tucson for the better part of 4 years that anybody who claims any aspect of Mexican food is better in Arizona is on crack.

Actually, the Sonoran-style Mexican food is far better there, and Phoenix also has La Parilla Suiza (Mexico-city style). But, if you're like me, you prefer the Tex-Mex, so in that case you take San Antonio.

[Shred]

I'm looking forward to the day when I can lurk and not see one thread with the word Phoenix or Suns in it started by a Spur. We're border-line obsessed.

Ding-ding-ding!

[Shred]

Now will you suns girls just stfu and come back when you win 4 NBA championships. Strike that, your pissant organization ain't got the mettle. Come back if you ever win one. Until then bow to your daddy.

I'll take substance over style any day. Wise choice grasshopper. Nash and any of you wannabees are welcomed to stop by our beautiful city and enjoy our San Antonio Spur's throphies any day.

I live in S.A. I was on my way over to the AT&T Center to check them out, but had to turn back because a gang firefight broke out on East Houston. I heard the arena is surrounded by sand bags and National Guardsmen.

[oligarchy]

We have another contestant for the Internet Tough Guy Award.

Yeah, that was a threat. :rolleyes
You're an idiot and should not procreate. That is, when you pass the age of puberty. Now, go play in the street and stop posting on a SPURS board; your obsession continues! Ignore for the retard who doesn't understand English.

[Shred]

Yeah, that was a threat. :rolleyes
You're an idiot and should not procreate. That is, when you pass the age of puberty. Now, go play in the street and stop posting on a SPURS board; your obsession continues! Ignore for the retard who doesn't understand English.

Pulling into the lead is "oligarchy." Will ShagiaFrost respond to being passed? Stay tuned....

[RollingBlackOut]

I prefer Simmons:

I actually went to the game in bold....it was amazing. Spurs fans have literally no idea what basketball can be like.

Spurs fans of course don't have any idea what basketball can be behind these four golden trophies blocking our view at the SBC Center.....

But of course Suns fans only know one type of basketball.....and thats Non-Championship basketball, and that type of basketball Spurs fans will never come to know.

[SRJ]

What's ironic to me about the suspensions is that with everyone questioning the integrity of the NBA in general and David Stern in particular, it took a lot of guts and ethics to do what he did. Think about it, why would this guy purposefully pull the strings for the Spurs? What's in it for him? Our team gets NO ratings. We play a slowdown style, our players don't say or do anything outrageous, and our coach shuns the media like a plague. ESPN can't stand us, and the public won't watch us. Our players are known as either shameless and balding floppers, dirty thugs, whiners, or emotionless automatons. Our point guard is only "NOW" because he's married to a woman everyone wants to sleep with.

Somebody give me one selfish or business-driven reason why Stern would want the Spurs in the NBA Finals. Go ahead, I've got all day.

And in that perfect PTR post, this particular excerpt is the most on-point. It's the elephant in the room Suns fans will never acknowledge.

[Shred]

And in that perfect PTR post, this particular excerpt is the most on-point. It's the elephant in the room Suns fans will never acknowledge.

Never said he did.

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

I live in S.A. I was on my way over to the AT&T Center to check them out, but had to turn back because a gang firefight broke out on East Houston. I heard the arena is surrounded by sand bags and National Guardsmen.

Link? Because I'm sure you'd never embellish or post an out right lie.

[Johnny RIngo]

If were talking about retarded - than were talking about most of your post's I've seen on this forum DINGO.

Sounds like another butt-hurt S0ns fan. I bring facts to the table and expose their shitty team as pretenders and they get angry.


Steve Nash = Good flopper. Manu Ginobli = most retarded flopper. Even if you get shot by a bullet, you can't recreate the shit that Ginobli does.

Steve Trash = plays no defense so he flops like a fish on the defensive end. Steve Trash and Raja Bell are right up there with the other top floppers:

http://82games.com/charges0607.htm

Ginobli, on the other hand, is a great defender:

http://82games.com/nichols2.htm

Manu has a score of 56.3 while Steve Trash is a pathetic -0.4. It's pretty sad when the NBA starts giving out MVPs to one-dimensional gimmick players with no defense. So let's sum up Steve Trash:

-He was an average player on the Mavs. Dallas gets rid of him and they turn into a great team.
-He joins the S0ns and, thanks to the Phoenix media, wins two undeserved MVPs. He still can't play defense, still can't make the Finals, whines everytime he gets eliminated from the playoffs, and flops like a bitch.


Whinniest Bitches = Popovich and Duncan. No other team in the league rides the officials like these two do. Every play, Every whistle. Just give the ref 100 bucks before the game and get it over with so we don't have to watch that display.

A S0ns fan whining about the other team's whining. :lol

Besides, D'Antoni and Amare take the cake in the whining department. Neither of these two earned their reps.


By the way - Was at Oregon State when Gary Payton played. Although defensively he is one of the toughest and Nash does not even compare. Gary Payton is no where near Steve when it comes to shooting accuracy. Steve also wins hands-down for his ridiculous way of passing and making everyone on the team better.

Wow. Another dumbass S0ns homer that would take a gimmick player like Steve Trash over a prime Payton. Fucking ridiculous. Replace Steve Trash with a young Payton and the S0ns would be a first tier contender for the championship. With Nash the S0ns are, at best, a second-tier team along with the likes of the Jazz, Rockets, and Nuggets.

[CarefreeAZ]

[QUOTE=Johnny RIngo]Sounds like another butt-hurt S0ns fan. I bring facts to the table and expose their shitty team as pretenders and they get angry.


"I bring facts to the table" - It sounds like the same crap you pulled out from a previous post when you called the suns a second tier team. I Believe you had the Nuggets and Rockets ahead of the Suns, but the "facts" state that the Suns have owned the Nuggets and the Rockets. I know, these are your pulled from my ass-stats.

Regarding Payton/Nash - Payton hands down defense, but assists and points definitely Nash - check your facts. Wether you like it or not, Nash will be going to the Hall of Fame.

I'm not an angry Suns fan, although you would like to think that, I'm just calling out the real pretender on this board(Dingo) when it comes to knowing basketball.

Adios

[Johnny RIngo]

"I bring facts to the table" - It sounds like the same crap you pulled out from a previous post when you called the suns a second tier team. I Believe you had the Nuggets and Rockets ahead of the Suns, but the "facts" state that the Suns have owned the Nuggets and the Rockets. I know, these are your pulled from my ass-stats.

The S0ns are a second-tier team. First-tier teams like the Spurs and Mavs play championship calibre basketball on both ends of the court. The S0ns don't even rank in the top 10 in defensive efficiency. How the hell can they be a top tier team when they don't even play adequate defense? Also, for all the undeserved hype the Steve Trash S0ns get they've never come close to sniffing a Finals appearance. They're looking more and more like the Don Nelson Mavs/'82 Nuggets. The S0ns really are nothing more than a tired gimmick with a window that's closing fast(Nash getting older, trading away their only decent post-defender and future picks).


Regarding Payton/Nash - Payton hands down defense, but assists and points definitely Nash - check your facts.

More garbage from a deluded S0ns homer. Payton was a complete player and carried the Sonics to the Finals(something Nash has never done...even though Nash has much better teammates in Marion, Amare, Bell, Barbosa, etc). Every knowledgeable basketball fan would take a prime GP over Nash.


Wether you like it or not, Nash will be going to the Hall of Fame.

Only because he stole 2 MVPs. Otherwise, his career stats are unimpressive. When you take his whole career into account, Nash is really just an above average point guard. That's why he ranks so low here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

3 good years of BBall should not get you into the Hall of Fame. Thanks to those undeserved MVPs he's going to get a free trip into a place he doesn't belong.

Nash=overrated and overhyped.


I'm not an angry Suns fan, although you would like to think that, I'm just calling out the real pretender on this board(Dingo) when it comes to knowing basketball.

The only pretenders are the Phoenix S0ns. 3 years of hype and they still can't win a conference title. Pathetic IMO.

[CarefreeAZ]

More garbage from a deluded S0ns homer. Payton was a complete player and carried the Sonics to the Finals(something Nash has never done...even though Nash has much better teammates in Marion, Amare, Bell, Barbosa, etc). Every knowledgeable basketball fan would take a prime GP over Nash.


OK - Let's call it a wash - Both players are/were excellent in what they contributed to their team. To say that Nash has much better teammates than Payton - You do remember Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins. Both teams had numerous all-stars(any knowledgeable fan would know this). What gets me is Hall of Famers Like, Magic, Bill Russell, Larry Bird all have Nash as one of the top ten players of all time.

#2 you give Dallas way to much credit. Just because they beat your Spurs a year ago in the Western Semifinals. We knocked Dallas off in the Western Semis in 2005 and they beat us in 2006 (without Amare)

This leads us into MVP - Do you know what that stands for? In 2006 Nash carried the Suns to the Pacific divsion Title and led them into the Western Conference Finals - with Amare out for the Season and Kurt Thomas out From January until the second round of the playoffs. Most Valuable Player because without him, they were screwed. Hell, you guys complain and moan that you would of beat Dallas if Duncan did not have his Plantar Fasciatis. Try not having him all year.

[Johnny RIngo]

OK - Let's call it a wash - Both players are/were excellent in what they contributed to their team. To say that Nash has much better teammates than Payton - You do remember Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins. Both teams had numerous all-stars(any knowledgeable fan would know this). .

No way can you compare Payton's supporting cast to Nash's. Nash has two other All stars(one of 'em All-NBA first team), a defensive first team player, and the 6th man. Payton led the Sonics past the Rockets and Jazz and into the Finals. Nash has played about a million playoff games and still hasn't led any of his teams to the Finals. Also, who the hell has Nash beaten with the S0ns? The Lakers and Clippers :lol


What gets me is Hall of Famers Like, Magic, Bill Russell, Larry Bird all have Nash as one of the top ten players of all time.

Nash a top ten player of all-time? :rollin

Damn, and I thought he was already way overrated before you told me that. There's no way he's a top 10 player. He can't even crack the top 50 of this list:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/PER_career.html

IIRC, Magic said the Nuggets were going to eliminate the Spurs this year. Amazing player but I'd hardly trust his opinion when it comes to analyzing BBall.


#2 you give Dallas way to much credit. Just because they beat your Spurs a year ago in the Western Semifinals. We knocked Dallas off in the Western Semis in 2005 and they beat us in 2006 (without Amare)

Dallas made it to the Finals after beating the Spurs in 7. They played great offensive and defensive basketball in '06. Steve Trash's S0ns have yet to challenge the Spurs or even make a Finals appearance. Maybe if D'Antoni and Nash tried to play some defense for a change but I don't see that ever happening. Hell, Duncan thought the Nuggets were harder to beat than the S0ns this year. Kinda gives you an idea of how soft Phoenix is.


This leads us into MVP - Do you know what that stands for? In 2006 Nash carried the Suns to the Pacific divsion Title and led them into the Western Conference Finals - with Amare out for the Season and Kurt Thomas out From January until the second round of the playoffs. Most Valuable Player because without him, they were screwed. Hell, you guys complain and moan that you would of beat Dallas if Duncan did not have his Plantar Fasciatis. Try not having him all year.

Gimme a break. Kobe and Lebron did a hell of a lot more for their teams in '06 than Nash. Nash still has an all-star in Marion playing next to him. Who does Lebron/Kobe have?

[Shred]

Link? Because I'm sure you'd never embellish or post an out right lie.

My mistake. They had East Houston shut down so the cops could have some "alone time" with a tranny hooker.

[CarefreeAZ]

[QUOTE=Johnny RIngo]No way can you compare Payton's supporting cast to Nash's. Nash has two other All stars(one of 'em All-NBA first team), a defensive first team player, and the 6th man. Payton led the Sonics past the Rockets and Jazz and into the Finals. Nash has played about a million playoff games and still hasn't led any of his teams to the Finals. Also, who the hell has Nash beaten with the S0ns? The Lakers and Clippers :lol


Ringo - I've grown tired of this as we could go back and forth for quite some time. Payton also had two all stars on that team, Kemp, Detlef and supporting cast of McMillan, Askew, Perkins. The sonics beat a rockets team that was on the decline after winning two championships with aging vetrans tagging along to win a championship, hardly a milestone. Our 6th man came about this year through hard work and effort. Look at his numbers/stats of the 05/06 season and you will see a dramatic difference.

The two oldest cliche's, the spurs are boring and the suns play no defense. I think the last few minutes of game 4 when Phoenix came back from seven down to win, they pretty much kept the spurs in check defensively. If we play no defense than you should have had 120 points a game. yet all the games were close except for game 2 and game 6. Parker had a great Game 1 yet never put up that many points again in any of the other games.

We can't play defense according to you, yet you like to use the fact that we have a defensive first team player gem for our supporting cast.

[Johnny RIngo]

Ringo - I've grown tired of this as we could go back and forth for quite some time. Payton also had two all stars on that team, Kemp, Detlef and supporting cast of McMillan, Askew, Perkins. The sonics beat a rockets team that was on the decline after winning two championships with aging vetrans tagging along to win a championship, hardly a milestone. Our 6th man came about this year through hard work and effort. Look at his numbers/stats of the 05/06 season and you will see a dramatic difference.

Beating an aging Rockets team and the Stockton/Malone Jazz is a hell of a lot more impressive than beating a shitty one-man Lakers and the freaking Clippers.

Put Payton or any good point guard on the S0ns and they'll put up similar, if not better, numbers than Nash who benefits greatly from an offensive system that highlights his strengths. Not only can Payton score and assist like Nash but he'd also bring the necessary defense to shut down the opposing team's guards. Nash is a liability that usually guards the other team's worst offensive player and has Marion and Bell do all the dirty work for him.


The two oldest cliche's, the spurs are boring and the suns play no defense. I think the last few minutes of game 4 when Phoenix came back from seven down to win, they pretty much kept the spurs in check defensively. If we play no defense than you should have had 120 points a game. yet all the games were close except for game 2 and game 6. Parker had a great Game 1 yet never put up that many points again in any of the other games.

We can't play defense according to you, yet you like to use the fact that we have a defensive first team player gem for our supporting cast.

The S0ns can't/don't play defense. According to this list (http://82games.com/nichols2.htm) the S0ns don't have a single excellent defender while 4 of the Spurs starting 5 are excellent defenders.

Also, the S0ns can't even crack the top 10 teams list in defensive efficiency. Why is this relevant? Almost every NBA champion was a top 10 defensive team when they won the title.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Beating an aging Rockets team and the Stockton/Malone Jazz is a hell of a lot more impressive than beating a shitty one-man Lakers and the freaking Clippers.

Put Payton or any good point guard on the S0ns and they'll put up similar, if not better, numbers than Nash who benefits greatly from an offensive system that highlights his strengths. Not only can Payton score and assist like Nash but he'd also bring the necessary defense to shut down the opposing team's guards. Nash is a liability that usually guards the other team's worst offensive player and has Marion and Bell do all the dirty work for him.

I know you enjoy making shit up, but seriously this is laughable. Payton is a career 31% three point shooter who has never averaged over 9 APG. It's pretty much blatantly obvious that Nash is a better playmaker and shooter.

And don't give me the "gimmicky system". I wouldn't necessarily consider a full court fast paced style of basketball to be gimmicky, espeically because it was the style of ball the NBA was founded upon and was the prevelant style for a long time. If anything the more defensive based teams like San Antoinio are a newer style.


The S0ns can't/don't play defense. According to this list (http://82games.com/nichols2.htm) the S0ns don't have a single excellent defender while 4 of the Spurs starting 5 are excellent defenders.

Also, the S0ns can't even crack the top 10 teams list in defensive efficiency. Why is this relevant? Almost every NBA champion was a top 10 defensive team when they won the title.

That is a very poorly done list. In the previous listing Shawn Marion was one of the highest ranked defenders, and 82games also had a statistical analysis on why Matrix should've won DPOY.

[Mister Sinister]

Pulling into the lead is "oligarchy." Will ShagiaFrost respond to being passed? Stay tuned....
Breaking news, Shred is both A) Full of an absolutely epic amount of failure, B) The real winner of the Internet Tough Guy Award, and C) The front-runner for the coveted Internet Badass Award!

[CarefreeAZ]

I know you enjoy making shit up, but seriously this is laughable. Payton is a career 31% three point shooter who has never averaged over 9 APG. It's pretty much blatantly obvious that Nash is a better playmaker and shooter.

And don't give me the "gimmicky system". I wouldn't necessarily consider a full court fast paced style of basketball to be gimmicky, espeically because it was the style of ball the NBA was founded upon and was the prevelant style for a long time. If anything the more defensive based teams like San Antoinio are a newer style.



That is a very poorly done list. In the previous listing Shawn Marion was one of the highest ranked defenders, and 82games also had a statistical analysis on why Matrix should've won DPOY.

Now that OldDirtMcGrit said it, he is right. Ringo - Quit making this crap up and replace that old 25watt bulb in your brain to a 100watt. Payton is a career 31% shooter and he really worked hard at gettting those numbers because in college his shooting was sometimes suspect.

Nash happens to be a distributor first(hence all the assists) but can be a stone cold killer with his jumpshot when needed. And please get a clue about this so-called gimmicky system. I'd even say you can put Parker in this system and there is no way they even come close to putting up the same numbers. Reason - Parker drive and shoot first before handing out the assist.
End of Story!

[SRJ]

And don't give me the "gimmicky system". I wouldn't necessarily consider a full court fast paced style of basketball to be gimmicky, espeically because it was the style of ball the NBA was founded upon and was the prevelant style for a long time.

Not so fast.

NBA basketball didn't start with Red Auerbach's Boston Celtics. They showed the world what the value of the transition game was, but we already had one dynasty (The Mikan Lakers) before Bill Russell came into the league.

Furthermore, we have only had two decades, the 60's and the '80's, where most of the league was playing uptempo.

I don't think fast-break basketball is gimmicky, but it wasn't the foundation of the NBA game.

[Johnny RIngo]

Now that OldDirtMcGrit said it, he is right. Ringo - Quit making this crap up and replace that old 25watt bulb in your brain to a 100watt.

:lol You couldn't keep up with the argument so you had to fall back on someone else's idiotic rants. Bravo, dim-bulb.


Payton is a career 31% shooter and he really worked hard at gettting those numbers because in college his shooting was sometimes suspect.

What the fuck are you talking about? Payton's a career 46% shooter.

Keep deluding yourself into thinking Nash is better than Payton. Payton's career numbers are far superior to Nash. Add in his top-notch defense and his trip to the Finals and there's no way you can compare Steve Trash to him.


Nash happens to be a distributor first(hence all the assists) but can be a stone cold killer with his jumpshot when needed. And please get a clue about this so-called gimmicky system. I'd even say you can put Parker in this system and there is no way they even come close to putting up the same numbers. Reason - Parker drive and shoot first before handing out the assist.
End of Story!

Nash benefits greatly from D'Antoni's up-tempo system. Replace Stevie boy with players like Deron Williams or Baron Davis and the S0ns become a MUCH better team.

[CarefreeAZ]

[QUOTE=Johnny RIngo]:lol You couldn't keep up with the argument so you had to fall back on someone else's idiotic rants. Bravo, dim-bulb.


No, Iv'e grown tired of your dillusional idea's and someone else has also called you out on it. We will talk again some day when the season is in full swing and things get more interesting.

[Johnny RIngo]

[QUOTE=Johnny RIngo]:lol You couldn't keep up with the argument so you had to fall back on someone else's idiotic rants. Bravo, dim-bulb.


No, Iv'e grown tired of your dillusional idea's and someone else has also called you out on it. We will talk again some day when the season is in full swing and things get more interesting.

Haha. I'm the delusional one? You S0ns fans still think your team's a legit contender despite getting owned in the playoffs year after year. Who the hell have the S0ns beaten the past two years?

The Lakers? LOL:lol

The Clippers? LMAO:rollin

Even the Jazz accomplished a whole lot more this year than Phoenix has the past three years. Beating the Rockets and Warriors is a hell of a lot more impressive than beating a one-man Lakers and the damn Clippers.

The S0ns are really just a 3rd-tier Western Conference team. The Phoenix media has tricked all of you into believing your team's something it's really not. In reality, the S0ns have never been anything more than 2nd round fodder for the real contenders of the Western Conference(Spurs, Mavs). The Jazz, Rockets, and Nuggets are more of a concern for the Spurs than Phoenix ever will be.