The Best Democracy Money Can Buy

[Nbadan]

This shouldn't be news to most of you who frequent this forum regularly, but for you perpetual-doubters here we go...


WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine, paying to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet U.S. leaders and helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's disputed runoff election.

U.S. officials say the activities don't amount to interference in Ukraine's election, as Russian President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) alleges, but are part of the $1 billion the State Department spends each year trying to build democracy worldwide.

No U.S. money was sent directly to Ukrainian political parties, the officials say. In most cases, it was funneled through organizations like the Carnegie Foundation or through groups aligned with Republicans and Democrats that organized election training, with human rights forums or with independent news outlets.

But officials acknowledge some of the money helped train groups and individuals opposed to the Russian-backed government candidate — people who now call themselves part of the Orange revolution.

more.

Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20041210/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_ukraine_election)

God I hate it when Hong-Kong News sources are more truthful than their American counterparts. Strangely enough, this thing reeks of George Soro.

[Clandestino]

you would rather a pro-russian government in place?

[exstatic]

I'd rather let THEM decide what fucking government THEY want. That's democracy, not nation building.

[Jekka]

I'd rather they spend 65 million here.

[violentkitten]

id rather they not spend our money at all

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's disputed runoff election.

When the Kerry camp does it here, it indicates election fraud by Bush. When Bush does it there, we're meddling in someone else's business. :lol

Just kidding, sort of. Dunno where they get the exit poll shit, I'd say that over half the country revolting is probably an indicator that exit polls were right.

[Clandestino]

I'd rather let THEM decide what fucking government THEY want. That's democracy, not nation building.

and that is why we spent the money.. if we hadn't the pro-russian gov would already be in place...

[Clandestino]

I'd rather they spend 65 million here.

yeah, but they wouldn't... get over it...

[MannyIsGod]

yeah, but they wouldn't... get over it...

That's the most flawed thinking EVER. Unlike you, some us believe in change and having things done the right way.

[smeagol]

you would rather a pro-russian government in place?

I thought the cold war was over?

Is Russia still the US' enemy?

[MannyIsGod]

I thought the cold war was over?

Is Russia still the US' enemy?

Honestly? Yes.

[smeagol]

Honestly? Yes.
Manny, are you being sarcastic?

I think Russia is as much the US' enemy as France or Germany (i.e.: not at all).

[MannyIsGod]

Please. Take a closer look at Russian policies. They make the US look awesome. No, Russia right now is a country that I want to have as little influence as possible anywhere.

Russian forgien policy is horrendous.

[smeagol]

Please. Take a closer look at Russian policies. They make the US look awesome. No, Russia right now is a country that I want to have as little influence as possible anywhere.

Russian forgien policy is horrendous.
Not sure I agree.

In any case, that doesn't give the US the right to meddle in other country's affairs. I thought of all posters, you would agree with that.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The only difference between this Russia and the old USSR is that from time to time Moscow actually admits they need help from us (usually when they're looking for justification to go after Chechnya or want to sell us some more oil).

Russia was probably the biggest profiteer from Food for Oil and illegal arms sales to Iraq after the Frenchies, kinda hard to call them an "ally" after that.

[MannyIsGod]

Read above, I don't and never said I did. You asked if Russia was the enemy, and in short I replied with yes.

And if you don't agree, then simply review the medling of Putin in not only the Ukraine affairs but also the Georgian elections.

[MannyIsGod]

The only difference between this Russia and the old USSR is that from time to time Moscow actually admits they need help from us (usually when they're looking for justification to go after Chechnya or want to sell us some more oil).

Russia was probably the biggest profiteer from Food for Oil and illegal arms sales to Iraq after the Frenchies, kinda hard to call them an "ally" after that.


I have to agree that the old style of USSR thinking is still in place. Putin was KGB for crying outloud. You don't shake off that type of thinking very easily.

For me, the same reason I hate to see Rice at such high diplomatic levels in our country are the same for not wanting Putin in power either.

[smeagol]

The only difference between this Russia and the old USSR is that from time to time Moscow actually admits they need help from us (usually when they're looking for justification to go after Chechnya or want to sell us some more oil).
The USSR was a communist regime trying to conquer the World. The new Russia is just another country which, becuase of its size and power, has some influence over smaller neighbouring countries.


Russia was probably the biggest profiteer from Food for Oil and illegal arms sales to Iraq after the Frenchies, kinda hard to call them an "ally" after that.
I never said they are an ally, but they are certainly not the enemy.

[smeagol]

Read above, I don't and never said I did. You asked if Russia was the enemy, and in short I replied with yes.

And if you don't agree, then simply review the medling of Putin in not only the Ukraine affairs but also the Georgian elections.
I don't agree with Putin's meddling; I don't agree with the US' meddling.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Let's be honest, the Russian mafia runs most of that country (hello identity theft here in the US, majority is Russian mafia work).

Putin is former KGB, and still runs that country like he's in charge of the KGB.

And as Manny pointed out, they did the same shit to Georgia last year with elections, although I must admit poisoning Yuschenko is a new low for them.

Like Manny, I feel the less influence Russia has in the world, the better.

[smeagol]

Aggie:

For the US to be using the "evil Russia" excuse to influence the politics of other countries does not sound right to me.

In the past (before 1989) I could understand most of the US' interventions. It is unclear to me why in this day and age, with no communist threat, why the US should be intervening in the affairs of a soveriegn country, unless it's related to terrorists.

[exstatic]

I wonder how Aggie would feel if Russia dropped $65M to "help" with the elections in Canada, thinking it would be a good idea if they were less close to the USA?

[smeagol]

I wonder how Aggie would feel if Russia dropped $65M to "help" with the elections in Canada, thinking it would be a good idea if they were less close to the USA?
Good point EX.

Aggie?

[exstatic]

Well, Hillary/Bill/Gore/Kerry did this bad loosely related thing one time...[/AHF]

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Shit, to be honest I wouldn't really care because Canada is insignificant internationally.

Russia and Moscow already tried this once last year with Georgia (rigging the election), to be honest I'm surprised that Ukraine has gotten this much play in the media, would love to know why.

[Nbadan]

would love to know why.

It's the Caspien Sea. Both countries are after control of the oil and natural gas pipelines through the Ukraine. Potentially worth billions of dollars.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So what. Outside of our invasion of Iraq, when have the media punks ever given a damn about oil potential?