Charley Rosen - Top 10 NBA imports [Archive]

View Full Version : Charley Rosen - Top 10 NBA imports

Spurs Brazil

08-04-2007, 06:17 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7085616

Reader Request: Top 10 NBA imports
Charley Rosen
Special to FOXSports.com, Updated 7 hours ago STORY TOOLS:

Hi, Charley. Since you like to come up with various top-10 lists, could you please rate the ten best international players in the NBA now, and also all time?
Thanks.
-- Gio Morato; Manila
It just so happens that the best foreign-born player currently in the league is also the all-time best in this category. That would be Tim Duncan, who was born in St. Croix, in the Virgin Islands.

Of those still active, here are the others who make the cut:

2. Steve Nash (South Africa). Yes, he's a double MVP, but superior big men are more valuable than superior guards.

3. Manu Ginobili (Argentina). He rates this high on the list because he's been a winner at every level of competition.

4. Yao Ming (China). If he stays healthy (and if he ever plays on a championship-caliber ball club), he could wind up being one of the best imports ever.

5. Tony Parker (who was actually born in Belgium). Working on having a championship ring for every finger on his shooting hand.

6. Dirk Nowitzki (Germany). His ineptitude in the clutch almost cancels out his immense talents.

7. Luol Deng (Sudan). A future All-Star.

8. Pau Gasol (Spain). An effective scorer, although putting up big numbers for a stinko team can lead to over-estimating his value.

9. Ben Gordon (born in London). One of the league's most dynamic streak shooters and a reliable performer in clutch situations.

10. Leandro Barbosa (Brazil). The perfect player for an imperfect team.

Almost, but not quite: Peja Stojakovic (Yugoslavia) is even worse in the clutch than Nowitzki. Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Lithuania) gets maximum results out of his minimal skills. Raja Bell (Virgin Islands) is an excellent two-way player. Andre Kirilenko (Russia) just might make the top 10 if he ever grows up.

So as not to duplicate any players on the two lists, all of the currently active players will be excluded from the all-time best category:

1. Hakeem Olajuwon (Nigeria). Not only was he an extraordinary player, he's also an extraordinary human being.

2. Dominique Wilkins (France). A great scorer and the best two-footed jumper ever.

3. Detlef Schrempf (Germany). He could pass, score, rebound and had a genius-level basketball IQ.

4. Dikembe Mutombo (Zaire). Since only his ghost is still active, his defense and shot-blocking prowess grandfathers him onto this list.

5. Toni Kukoc (Croatia). An amazing reliable clutch shooter for three championship teams.

6. Patrick Ewing (Jamaica). Could do everything but pass, defend and win.

7. Rolando Blackman (Panama). A truly great shooter and four-time All-Star whose career average of 18 points per game included three 20-plus seasons.

8. Rik Smits (Netherlands). He was virtually unstoppable whenever he caught the ball with one of his feet planted in the lane.

9. Drazen Petrovic (Croatia). One of the best shooters anywhere at any time, and he also had the quickest shot release ever.

10. Mychal Thompson (Bahamas). Could score, rebound, defend, and play with total unselfishness.

11. Dennis Rodman (Mars).

The just-missed list: Vlade Divac (Yugoslavia) was an awesome passer and accomplished flopper. Sarunas Marciulionis (Lithuania) was a hard-driving scorer, an accurate long-range shooter and a rough-tough competitor. Arvydas Sabonis (Lithuania) was a gifted passer and hook-shooter, who could also bury line-drive one-handers and use his massive bulk to give Shaq a hard time on defense. Dino Radja (Croatia) always liked to score, sometimes liked to rebound and never liked to pass or defend. Rony Siekaly (Lebanon) was an active scorer and rebounder, and above all, an overachiever. Gheorghe Muresan (Romania) was huge, strong and fearless. Manute Bol (Sudan) was a gas.

timvp

08-04-2007, 06:21 PM

Dirk sixth is a joke. Yeah he choked but still, he's damn good.

OldDirtMcGirt

08-04-2007, 06:26 PM

Dirk sixth is a joke. Yeah he choked but still, he's damn good.

Seriously. It should be Duncan-Nash-Dirk.

Obstructed_View

08-04-2007, 06:26 PM

Looking at his body of work, I have to agree. This list places way too much weight on the last six months.

Obstructed_View

08-04-2007, 06:28 PM

Seriously. It should be Duncan-Nash-Dirk.
You might need to peruse Dirk's career stats. Putting Nash above him is a joke. Dirk has better numbers, one more deserved MVP award, and has been deeper in the playoffs.

OldDirtMcGirt

08-04-2007, 06:33 PM

You might need to peruse Dirk's career stats. Putting Nash above him is a joke. Dirk has better numbers, one more deserved MVP award, and has been deeper in the playoffs.

Of course their recent statistics deserve to be much more weighted. It's discussing who is the best foreign born player right now, thus factoring stats from over five years ago doesn't do much good.

And Dirk deserved his MVP by getting butt whooped by a much less talented team, but taking a lottery team to the playoffs and then losing your All NBA teammate to injury and still getting over fifty wins is undeserved? Fuzzy sense of logic there.

MaNuMaNiAc

08-04-2007, 06:39 PM

I agree, Dirk should be at least third, if not second. I love Manu to death, but Dirk is a lot better than Manu, except in the clutch of course

Obstructed_View

08-04-2007, 06:58 PM

Of course their recent statistics deserve to be much more weighted. It's discussing who is the best foreign born player right now, thus factoring stats from over five years ago doesn't do much good.

And Dirk deserved his MVP by getting butt whooped by a much less talented team, but taking a lottery team to the playoffs and then losing your All NBA teammate to injury and still getting over fifty wins is undeserved? Fuzzy sense of logic there.
Hmm. Disingenuous at best, but probably just ignorance on your part. After all, you ARE a Suns fan.

The 2004 season was a train wreck. The Suns had lots of people hurt, a coaching change, and the closest thing they had to a point guard was traded. Since they'd made the playoffs the previous year with the rookie of the year, it's funny how you discount his being out of the lineup only when it's convenient for you or refer to them as a "lottery team" attempting to imply that they were basement dwellers for years, which just isn't true.

I guess I could counter with the fact that the Mavericks have increased their number of wins each season since Nash left, but maybe he deserves his MVP for improving two teams at the same time. Funny how not having a backup that's capable of even keeping the ship afloat can force a guy to play over his head.

And according to most Suns fans and their coach, they got their ass whooped by a less talented team. MVP is a regular season award anyway, so the Mavs' playoff exit doesn't really enter into the conversation. I've never said Nash isn't a great player, but it's a homer pick to say he's better than Dirk. Even your "right now" argument doesn't hold water, considering that Dirk is the reigning MVP.

OldDirtMcGirt

08-04-2007, 07:09 PM

Hmm. Disingenuous at best, but probably just ignorance on your part. After all, you ARE a Suns fan.

The 2004 season was a train wreck. The Suns had lots of people hurt, a coaching change, and the closest thing they had to a point guard was traded. Since they'd made the playoffs the previous year with the rookie of the year, it's funny how you discount his being out of the lineup only when it's convenient for you or refer to them as a "lottery team" attempting to imply that they were basement dwellers for years, which just isn't true.

I guess I could counter with the fact that the Mavericks have increased their number of wins each season since Nash left, but maybe he deserves his MVP for improving two teams at the same time. Funny how not having a backup that's capable of even keeping the ship afloat can force a guy to play over his head.

And according to most Suns fans and their coach, they got their ass whooped by a less talented team. MVP is a regular season award anyway, so the Mavs' playoff exit doesn't really enter into the conversation. I've never said Nash isn't a great player, but it's a homer pick to say he's better than Dirk. Even your "right now" argument doesn't hold water, considering that Dirk is the reigning MVP.

While of course the entire turn around wasn't simply because of Nash, he's definitely alot of it. When he's in the lineup, Phoenix wins, when he isn't we lose. He has a tremendous impact on our game, and it was really demonstrated by that season. And what about the 05-06 season?

And pointing out how his former team is doing is foolish and completely disingenious. It's flawed logic and doesn't take into account other mitigating factors. You judge a player on what they accomplish.

Oh, and we weren't humiliated like Dallas. All of the ESPN guys predicted San Antonio to win in their playoff preview, and it was a hotly contested six game series with a few extenuating circumstances. And the Spurs had more talent, a better star, and even without all of the suspension hoopla they probably would've still won the series, but I wouldn't characterize it as an ass whooping.

I think that Nash is the better player because his game is more valuable to the team (point guard rather than jump shooting big man). He's better in the clutch and at making his teammates better. Both of them are crappy defenders, but it's easier to hide Dirk because of his position and because of the personell and coach around him.

Obstructed_View

08-04-2007, 07:28 PM

While of course the entire turn around wasn't simply because of Nash, he's definitely alot of it. When he's in the lineup, Phoenix wins, when he isn't we lose. He has a tremendous impact on our game, and it was really demonstrated by that season. And what about the 05-06 season?
I've long said that Nash deserves the "I don't have a competent backup so I have to do everything" award. If there were a "I'm a better point guard than Marbury, Hardaway and Joe Johnson" award, I'd be all for him winning that one as well. You tried to make it sound like he single-handedly took a team of scrubs and turned them into a contender. Nice try.

And pointing out how his former team is doing is foolish and completely disingenious. It's flawed logic and doesn't take into account other mitigating factors. You judge a player on what they accomplish.
The statement was intended to be as foolish as your argument. If you blindly throw the increased wins of the team he joined, you could just as easily look at the increased wins of the team he left. There's no difference. They're both stupid. I was pointing that out. Way to re-use my word, by the way.

Oh, and we weren't humiliated like Dallas. All of the ESPN guys predicted San Antonio to win in their playoff preview, and it was a hotly contested six game series with a few extenuating circumstances. And the Spurs had more talent, a better star, and even without all of the suspension hoopla they probably would've still won the series, but I wouldn't characterize it as an ass whooping.
Dallas lost in six games. Phoenix lost in six games. At least the Mavericks maintained their composure, and at least Dirk took the blame for the loss.

I think that Nash is the better player because I'm a Suns fan.
Fixed.

And if you are going to use the "make your teammates better" argument, then Jason Terry and Devin Harris are apparently better at it than Nash.

bdictjames

08-04-2007, 07:39 PM

Nash was born in South Africa? Wow.

I'd put Kirilenko on top of Barbosa though. And wasn't Kobe born outside of the States?

OldDirtMcGirt

08-04-2007, 07:43 PM

So I'm guessing that you don't consider Leandro Barbosa, reigning sixth man of the year award to be a decent player? It seems as if Marcus Banks was also coming off of a career year in Minnesota, yet he couldn't do diddly poo. The Suns backups at point guard aren't scrubs by any stretch of the imagination. But nice job on the ridiculous hyperbole. It's easier to win arguments when you just put words in somebody elses mouth.

In '04-'05, when Nash first led the Suns, they were a better team than Dallas. Then Dallas got a better coach added more players and their superstar continued to develop his game. Hence more wins. At least I was talking about the team that Nash had a direct effect on.

Dallas was a number one seed losing to a number eight seed that everybody thought they would beat. Phoenix lost to a favored and better team in San Antonio in a much more hotly contested series. And really the only player who truly lost his composure during that whole series wasn't in a Phoenix uniform. Sure they were pissed about the other bullshit, but that doesn't mean that they completely broke down.

And apparently you must've missed it. Nash is a better passer, shooter, and more clutch than Dirk.

Melmart1

08-04-2007, 11:41 PM

Dirk should be higher on that list, absolutely.

And I thought Nash was Canadian.

ShoogarBear

08-04-2007, 11:45 PM

Spurminator

08-05-2007, 12:15 AM

I'd like to see one of his overlong, pompous articles explain how the hell Dikembe Mutumbo had a better career than Patrick Ewing.

OldDirtMcGirt

08-05-2007, 12:27 AM

I'd like to see one of his overlong, pompous articles explain how the hell Dikembe Mutumbo had a better career than Patrick Ewing.

Or how Ewing isn't a good defender. This guy is a total dumbass.

ShoogarBear

08-05-2007, 12:34 AM

I'd like to see one of his overlong, pompous articles explain how the hell Dikembe Mutumbo had a better career than Patrick Ewing.He will probably say that Mutumbo came from a better college program.

VaSpursFan

08-05-2007, 03:39 AM

He will probably say that Mutumbo came from a better college program.

that would be hysterical since they both came from g'town :lol :lol

lebomb

08-05-2007, 08:15 AM

Its only an opinon.........no big deal. Everyone on heres list would differ.

jmard5

08-05-2007, 08:30 AM

11. Dennis Rodman (Mars).

:lol

Obstructed_View

08-05-2007, 01:52 PM

So I'm guessing that you don't consider Leandro Barbosa, reigning sixth man of the year award to be a decent player?
Much like Joe Johnson, he's a very very good player, but he's not a point guard. He doesn't make good decisions. That's why the Suns continue to struggle when Nash isn't on the court.

The Suns backups at point guard aren't scrubs by any stretch of the imagination. But nice job on the ridiculous hyperbole. It's easier to win arguments when you just put words in somebody elses mouth.

You tried to make it sound like he single-handedly took a team of scrubs and turned them into a contender.

Hmm. You might learn from your own advice. But since you brought it up, which backup point guard isn't a scrub, the one who averaged two assists for the playoffs, or the one who totalled less than ten minutes in the playoffs?

In '04-'05, when Nash first led the Suns, they were a better team than Dallas. Then Dallas got a better coach added more players and their superstar continued to develop his game. Hence more wins. At least I was talking about the team that Nash had a direct effect on.
The Mavs won 52 games in Nash's final year in Dallas. They won 58 games the first year without him. It don't get more direct than that. Therefore, by your logic, Jason Terry is a better point guard than Steve Nash, right?

Dallas was a number one seed losing to a number eight seed that everybody thought they would beat. Phoenix lost to a favored and better team in San Antonio in a much more hotly contested series.
Dallas lost to the hottest team in basketball playing WAY over their head. Both Dallas and Phoenix lost to teams that they haven't shown any ability to beat. They both lost in six games despite home court advantage.

Dallas would have walked over the Lakers, too.

And really the only player who truly lost his composure during that whole series wasn't in a Phoenix uniform. Sure they were pissed about the other bullshit, but that doesn't mean that they completely broke down.
Hmm. Nash, Amare, Diaw, and Bell all looked like they were in Phoenix uniforms to me. Your team imploded, and it was beautiful to watch.

And apparently you must've missed it. Nash is a better passer, shooter, and more clutch than Dirk. :lol @ your claim that he's a better shooter than Dirk. Tony Parker and Shaq have a higher field goal percentage than Dirk. Are they better shooters, too?

Nash IS really good at hitting threes when his team is down by 20, though. He was good at it when he was here, too. He did it a lot. Fortunately he had Finley and Dirk to help him actually win games when they were down by that much. I guess that's what you mean by clutch.

Again, Dirk has been deeper in the playoffs, he's actually beaten San Antonio, and he's the reigning MVP.

Switchman

08-05-2007, 02:29 PM

I'd take Ginobili over Dirk any day of the week. And that is not homer talk.

MG shows up in the clutch 90% of the time. He can take over games with his heart.

I'd rather pick up MG and put another all star/super star around him.

spursfan09

08-05-2007, 02:45 PM

I dont think its too much of a stretch to put Manu and Tony ahead of Dirk. They have accomplished more in the NBA than Dirk has. Hell Tony Parker even has a Finals MVP. Dirk doesn't have one. Can Dirk even even be considered the best European player now?

Phenomanul

08-05-2007, 09:53 PM

11. Dennis Rodman (Mars)

:lol

I'm surprised it took 20 posts before someone pointed that one out....

SRJ

08-05-2007, 10:26 PM

Switchman

08-05-2007, 10:31 PM

SRJ

08-05-2007, 10:35 PM

But would a team with Manu as its best player even be in a position to choke? I doubt it, and they'd probably finish with, at best, a #6 seed.

Think of Kobe's teams since Shaq left to get a rough idea.

remingtonbo2001

08-06-2007, 01:03 AM

All of you guys picking Manu over Dirk, please perform the following mental exercise:

The NBA is disbanded and a new league has taken its place. You are the GM of one of the new teams, and the two best players available to you are Dirk Nowitzki and Manu Ginobili.

Are you telling me it's easier to build around Manu than Dirk? Dirk has been the centerpiece of one of the best teams in the NBA since 2001. Manu has been a wingman to the Spurs centerpiece, Tim Duncan.

My feeling, and I'm spitballing here, is that it's a lot easier to be the wingman than the alpha dog.

(Please spare me any Olympic references. Manu was heroic in the Olympics, but we're discussing the NBA, not FIBA)

If I am the average fan, I take Dirk. Because, as the AVERAGE FAN, I only look at the stat line. If I am an NBA GM, I take Manu, because I know that he has the amount of HEART and PASSION which it takes to WIN! Court/ Lockeroom Leadership doesn't always show up in the form of points, assists, ect. It comes also from diving for loose balls, inspiring your teamates at the right time. It's having YOUR FUCKING EYE GOUGED OUT, and still remaining in the game. WOULD DIRK DO THAT? It's about playing through injuries such as plantar ficiatus (?), two sprained ankles, yet still having enough in the tank to bring home another CHAMPIONSHIP. It's knowing what the team needs from you, and DOING IT.

SRJ

08-06-2007, 03:08 PM

If I am the average fan, I take Dirk. Because, as the AVERAGE FAN, I only look at the stat line. If I am an NBA GM, I take Manu, because I know that he has the amount of HEART and PASSION which it takes to WIN! Court/ Lockeroom Leadership doesn't always show up in the form of points, assists, ect. It comes also from diving for loose balls, inspiring your teamates at the right time. It's having YOUR FUCKING EYE GOUGED OUT, and still remaining in the game. WOULD DIRK DO THAT? It's about playing through injuries such as plantar ficiatus (?), two sprained ankles, yet still having enough in the tank to bring home another CHAMPIONSHIP. It's knowing what the team needs from you, and DOING IT.

I was comparing Dirk and Manu. Notice anything wrong with the part in bold? Here, let me copy and paste just that part:

It's about playing through injuries such as plantar ficiatus (?), two sprained ankles, yet still having enough in the tank to bring home another CHAMPIONSHIP.

1) That didn't happen to Manu, it happened to Tim.
2) Of course I would pick Tim over Dirk, but that wasn't what was being discussed.
3) So you really think a team that had Manu as its best player would be better than a team that had Dirk as its best player? And please, try to limit your all-caps words in response. Use bold or underline or something else.

ShoogarBear

08-06-2007, 03:15 PM

I'd like to see one of his overlong, pompous articles explain how the hell Dikembe Mutumbo had a better career than Patrick Ewing.HE WANTS TO SEX MUTUMBO!!

(I can't beleive I didn't think of that one at first . . . :bang)

pjjrfan

08-06-2007, 03:45 PM

The key phrase of why Rosen put Manu so high is that Manu has been a winner at every level he has played. Think about that. I personally feel that Manu is one of the most unique players that I have seen in the game, and I'm talking at least 40 years of watching and being a fan of the NBA. A player like Manu comes along once in a generation and I personally feel honored and blessed to have seen him play and especially moreso because he is a Spur. There may be more talented and better players but no one matches Manu's courage on a basketball court, no one.

hater

08-06-2007, 04:28 PM

6. Dirk Nowitzki (Germany). His ineptitude in the clutch almost cancels out his immense talents.

:lmao

so true

hater

08-06-2007, 04:32 PM

I would think twice before spending 20mil a year on a "SuperStar" that continues to choke.

Manu would be cheaper, and has proven himself time and time again. Although past his prime?

great point, you could spend less $ on picking Manu over Dirk, spend what you save on better talent and come out with a better team.

urunobili

08-06-2007, 04:32 PM

Dirk sixth is a joke. Yeah he choked but still, he's damn good.

how many titles at any level does he have?

sandman

08-06-2007, 04:44 PM

As usual, Rosen manages to screw up a perfectly good premise.

Nash is Canadian, but was born in S.A.

Who cares where they were actually born? Ben Gordon and Dominique Wilkins? WTF, those are not international players. And really, the question was asked in a way such that Duncan and Ewing and the like should be excluded, too.

I was born in Japan, but that doesn't make me Japanese. Rosen took some editorial license with compiling his list of "foreign" players.

A simple google search gleaned these facts:

Wilkins was born in France because his dad was in the U.S. Air Force.

Ben Gordon was born in London and his parents moved to America three weeks later. Was raised in NYC.

Rolando Blackman? Raised in NYC, attended KSU, was on the 1980 U.S. Olympic Team.

Mr.Bottomtooth

08-06-2007, 04:55 PM

how many titles at any level does he have?
What do titles have to do with a list based on individual talent?

monosylab1k

08-06-2007, 05:21 PM

wildchild

08-06-2007, 05:39 PM

i'm shocked he didn't put oberto and beno in their above dirk as well. i'm even more shocked he didn't find a way to prove that finley, bowen, barry, bonner, & vaughn were foreign players as well so that he could have the top 10 all Spurs and complete the entire Spurs-suckfest that this article was.

ahahahahahaha...

Duncan= 4 rings
Tony=Mvp finals
Manu=3 rings, Olympics Champion, Euroleague Champion.
Bowen=3 rings, master D,
Oberto: NBA champion, Olympics Champion, SpainLeague Champion
Beno=2 rings

Dirk=O ring = Olympics Champion=...
Dirk=little girl in troubles