755

[FromWayDowntown]

Bonds yanked one to make Clay Hensley an immortal, too.

[florige]

Hurry up and break it so we can stop hearing about this guy already...

[midgetonadonkey]

I wish cancer on Barry Bonds. I pray he never breaks the record.

[midgetonadonkey]

Cheating mother fucker.

[chode_regulator]

im still up in air on what to think about him
i find ithard to believe roids are as rampant as they want you to believe but i do thinik it was/is fairly common so.....if you cant beat em join em kind of applies here

[DOMINATOR]

*

[greenroom]

*

Unless you can prove who did and did not use. Or who knew and did not know who was using steroids you have to enjoy seeing history.

Congrats Bonds

[midgetonadonkey]

Every record broken from 1985-present deserves an *.

[tsb2000]

and so it is...

[florige]

One thing I will give the guy is that he does have a set of balls. I really thought that he was going to wait and try and break the record in SF and not in hostile territory amid all the cheating crap. I guess he showed me. That is the only thing I give this guy right now. :smokin

[florige]

So I'm going to go ahead and assume the the crowd was probably booing him loudly...

[FromWayDowntown]

One thing I will give the guy is that he does have a set of balls. I really thought that he was going to wait and try and break the record in SF and not in hostile territory amid all the cheating crap. I guess he showed me. That is the only thing I give this guy right now. :smokin

He hasn't broken a record; he's tied it.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Fuck Bonds.

[John Patrick]

What do I think of bonds..........

well I say wait till they whether or not prove he really did take that shit....


but the numbers dont lie.....

he had something like 200-350, around those kinda homers in i think 90's...then he just started to really jack them out..

idk..

for now, congrats i guess.

[Melmart1]

I used to have angry reactions to the whole Bonds thing, too. Over time, I have come to accept that no matter how shitty you think it is, the man will be on the top of the home run list, until A-Rod (barring a career-ending injury anytime soon) beats him. And eventually, others will beat him as well.

Bonds' time atop the list will not last long. And, if you are like me, it will be non-existant. He may be listed on paper, but for most of the baseball fans I know, Henry Aaron will always be the HR king, so does it really matter what Bonds does? Records are only credible if people accept them.

[King]

I don't see why there's the witch hunt for Bonds - when steroids have been around for a long time in pro sports, and I'm sure there are plenty of 'aided' records in books across the board.

And to the poster above - records are credible when they're listed as records. It doesn't matter who you or your friends believe to be the HR king. When Bonds's name is above Aaron's on the all-time list, he's the HR king. Being in denial about it is ridiculous, because it doesn't accomplish anything. He's going to be the HR king until somebody (ARod) comes along, and sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU!' is nothing more than a complete waste of time.

[DOMINATOR]

funny thing is Hensley (who was the pitcher) was busted for steroids in 2005.

[BUMP]

the peak of Bonds' career was in his late 30's-40, not to mention he doubled in size at the same time. his HEAD double in size as well.

if anyone can name another athlete (who is clean) that had the same stuff happen to him, then i will applaud Bonds.

until then....

http://www.masterpiecepumpkins.com/Graphics/gho-Boo%20(1)__________.JPG

[Melmart1]

I don't see why there's the witch hunt for Bonds - when steroids have been around for a long time in pro sports, and I'm sure there are plenty of 'aided' records in books across the board.

And to the poster above - records are credible when they're listed as records. It doesn't matter who you or your friends believe to be the HR king. When Bonds's name is above Aaron's on the all-time list, he's the HR king. Being in denial about it is ridiculous, because it doesn't accomplish anything. He's going to be the HR king until somebody (ARod) comes along, and sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU!' is nothing more than a complete waste of time.
Another complete waste of time is arguing with people regarding what is a complete waste of time.

I know Bonds is tied and will soon be atop the list. That doesn't mean that I see Aaron or anyone else as having their place removed. What it means is that as far as I can tell, Aaron never used steroids and to me, his record is more credible. However, this stems from my confliction with the entire steroids era as a baseball fan who grew up watching and cheering for guys like Palmeiro.

My opinion regarding Bonds has come a long way, believe it or not. Read the first part of my previous post. It may eventually come along more, but even if it doesn't, it doesn't make my opinion on the matter "ridiculous." It makes it mine, and I am not trying to tell you or anyone else what to think in regards to it.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think that Bonds is the greatest baseball player of this generation. I'll think that whether he holds the record forever or never passes Aaron.

The home runs aren't the dispositive factor for me. Nobody could do the things that Bonds did in his prime. About 2 guys in the history of the game -- Mantle and Mays -- could have done those things. His career numbers, without the home runs, are flat out sick. I'm not sure how someone could truly be a baseball fan and not appreciate the enormity of Barry Bonds' talent.

The guy's surly personality has done him few favors and won him fewer fans. It's also, I think, cost him greatly in terms of the benefit of the doubt he's accorded in the court of public opinion.

[FromWayDowntown]

the peak of Bonds' career was in his late 30's-40, not to mention he doubled in size at the same time. his HEAD double in size as well.

if anyone can name another athlete (who is clean) that had the same stuff happen to him, then i will applaud Bonds.

until then....



Roger Clemens?

[ducks]

a-rod will break hank's record in 5-6 years

[ducks]

the big knock I got on bonds is he can not even run hard to first anymore ever

[FromWayDowntown]

a-rod will break hank's record in 5-6 years

I don't think it will be Hank's record in 5 or 6 years.

[ducks]

I think they will take the record from bonds by then


:cooldevil

[resistanze]

He's coming up second, 756 bitches!

[Flight3107]

Hank Aaron ADMITTED to taking fucking greenies before games, why the fuck does Aaron not have an * beore his name? If he does not have an * before his name, then Bonds does not deserve one either.


Congrats Bonds !!!

[K-State Spur]

Well, use any reasoning you want (steroids, juiced balls, smaller parks), but every stat shows that it is clearly easier to hit HRs in the Bonds era than it has been in any previous time.

[TLWisfoine]

I don't know why the media and the rest of the haters are all of a sudden kissing Hank Aaron's ass now calling him a superstar and great player, when a for years they could hardly be bothered by him or the record. All Ruth all the time, only time Aaron's name was mentioned was either on the anniversary of the record or as the answer to a trivia game.

[TLWisfoine]

Every record broken from 1985-present deserves an *.

And any record from before 1947 deserve an *!!!

[NorCal510]

I wish cancer on Barry Bonds. I pray he never breaks the record.
fuck you midge. go to fucking hell. stupid ignorant pandejo motherfucker. anybody on this board could kick your pathetic ass.

[TLWisfoine]

It seemed to me that people cheered more than they booed when he hit the homer.

[Erect as a Bull]

Every record broken from 1985-present deserves an *.

A Spurs fan knows all about a *

So I take your word for it :lol

[greenroom]

So I'm going to go ahead and assume the the crowd was probably booing him loudly...

Actually they cheered him and gave him a standing O. there were some Boos, but for the most part it was a positive crowd

[TLWisfoine]

Actually they cheered him and gave him a standing O. there were some Boos, but for the most part it was a positive crowd

:clap :clap :clap :clap

[resistanze]

I don't know why the media and the rest of the haters are all of a sudden kissing Hank Aaron's ass now calling him a superstar and great player, when a for years they could hardly be bothered by him or the record. All Ruth all the time, only time Aaron's name was mentioned was either on the anniversary of the record or as the answer to a trivia game.
:lol So true, as if Hank Aaron wasn't getting sent 100s of death threats when he approached Ruth's record.

[K-State Spur]

I don't know why the media and the rest of the haters are all of a sudden kissing Hank Aaron's ass now calling him a superstar and great player, when a for years they could hardly be bothered by him or the record. All Ruth all the time, only time Aaron's name was mentioned was either on the anniversary of the record or as the answer to a trivia game.

I don't know if I agree with that. I've never heard anybody try to say that Ruth was still the homerun king and I've certainly seen the clip of Aaron's 715 countless times more than Ruth's 'called shot.'

On the other hand, if Ruth is still held higher in baseball lore, there may be a few reasons for that. First, there is not much visual evidence from Ruth's time, so his feats are more of legend than of sportscenter highlights. Second, he was the first great HR hitter in baseball history, sometimes being first leads to more acclaim than being best. Third, he was a dominant HR hitter. He held the career record for about 40 years and the single season record for about 30 years. Aaron was more a spectacular model of consistency. He never popped 50 HRs in a season, let alone 60. (For example, even before he tested positive for steroids, many sportswriters were saying that Palmeiro was not a hall-of-famer because he was a compiler, never peaking as high as other great players). And finally, the Babe did hit 714 in only 67% of the ABs that Aaron used to get 755 (and in only 80% of the ABs that Barry has had).

Now, we all know that Ruth didn't have to play night games, travel to the west coast, compete with black players, or face late inning left-handed specialists. But there are clearly valid arguments in his favor beyond simple prejudice if someone still were to consider him the all-time HR king, despite the numbers.

It's one of the all-time great baseball debates.

[TheAuthority]

This record will be forever tainted(until A. Rod passes him).

[K-State Spur]

I don't know about tainted so much as having a good portion of its meaning taken away. Baseball was the one sport where the numbers meant something, but while baseball's owners were counting the $ as homeruns flew out of the park, none of them seemed to notice that they might be cutting open the golden goose.

I expect that 30 years from now, baseball's homerun record will invoke the same hollow feeling that Marino's career TD pass record has in football or Kareem's points do in basketball. They are nice records, but nobody really cares.

[BeerIsGood!]

Time has a way of taking the circumstances out of things and leaving the stats to stand alone. In '61 people were jeering Maris left and right because he was breaking a legend's record, and because he was doing it in more games played than Ruth. They wanted an * there, but in 1998 nobody cared about that anymore. Bonds has taken performances enhancers, and he has also persevered through more shit than any player of recent history. He's been villified and has continued to pound home runs and perform through it all, which is damn impressive.

[BeerIsGood!]

I doubt A-Rod will break the record unless he is taking HGH, which I am almost certain he is at this point. Look at him now compared to when he was with the Rangers or Mariners - big difference. He's getting a bigger head and getting that caveman type rigid brow that are signs of HGH use. Since MLB doesn't test blood A-Rod can be using without fear of being caught. I definitely think he's using.

[K-State Spur]

Bonds has taken performances enhancers, and he has also persevered through more shit than any player of recent history.

That's the catch though. When you use performance enhancing drugs, you lose any right to complain about the media or fans calling you out, you've opened that door all on your own.

In addition, I'd say that plenty of guys (i.e. Eric Davis - cancer, B.J. Surhoff - child with autism, Preston Wilson - lost a child, and even the diva that is Curt Schilling - wife had cancer), have had to persevere through significantly more than Bonds has ever had to deal with on his worst day in baseball.

[greenroom]

That's the catch though. When you use performance enhancing drugs, you lose any right to complain about the media or fans calling you out, you've opened that door all on your own.

In addition, I'd say that plenty of guys (i.e. Eric Davis - cancer, B.J. Surhoff - child with autism, Preston Wilson - lost a child, and even the diva that is Curt Schilling - wife had cancer), have had to persevere through significantly more than Bonds has ever had to deal with on his worst day in baseball.


No offence but yes those personal things are brought public buy the player it self. Bonds issue and his perception is thru the media. Yes he is not very friendly to them, but lets be honest the media has dragged Bonds thru the mud even before the steroids era.

[mikejones99]

Bonds is the greatest and most of the haters are just jealous. Just like when all the hate comes to the Spurs from most NBA cities. If Bonds were on your team you'd be happy and almost all you morons would be happy to cash in on that baseball that will be worth millions soon.

[TLWisfoine]

So true, as if Hank Aaron wasn't getting sent 100s of death threats when he approached Ruth's record

The only time people talked about that was when the anniversary of his record breaking home run was approaching.

[K-State Spur]

No offence but yes those personal things are brought public buy the player it self. Bonds issue and his perception is thru the media. Yes he is not very friendly to them, but lets be honest the media has dragged Bonds thru the mud even before the steroids era.

No doubt, but being drug through the mud by the media is a far cry from losing a child in terms of difficulty to persevere.

And, in the steroids era, it's not like it's a false accusation. He's admitted to using them.

[mikejones99]

Who cares about fucking steroids? If he did them then he will probly die faster witch will make more fools happier.

[TLWisfoine]

Now, we all know that Ruth didn't have to play night games, travel to the west coast, compete with black players, or face late inning left-handed specialists. But there are clearly valid arguments in his favor beyond simple prejudice if someone still were to consider him the all-time HR king, despite the numbers.

Please, I'd like to hear this argument!!!

[TLWisfoine]

And, in the steroids era, it's not like it's a false accusation. He's admitted to using them.

I don't follow baseball much anymore, so when did he do this?

[SRJ]

I'm tired of people acting like lawyers about this issue.

"Innocent until proven guilty!!"

This is true. And in accordance with this legal principle, we are not sending him to jail, we're just refusing to accept the legitimacy of his accomplishments of the last ten years or so. He's still a free man, and a total asshole. "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't mean anything in the Court of Public Opinion.

[TheSanityAnnex]

As much as I can't stand Bonds, more so because of his attitude than his possible steroid use, I was pleased to see my fellow San Diegans take the advice of Ron Burgandy and "stay classy". My parents and brother were at the game and said there were many more cheers than boos. I'm really pleased Bonds homer meant nothing and the Padres swept the Giants.

[DNS Error]

Bonds' response.....

"Go fuck yourself San Diego!"

it's hard to feel sorry for a guy that brings it upon himself with the way Bonds does..

eh, i dont follow baseball that much anyways...

[K-State Spur]

Please, I'd like to hear this argument!!!

Re-read my post, I already pointed them out. Aaron was an incredible model of consistency, but:

Ruth had greater peaks. He hit 60 HRs in a single season (in 154 games). Aaron never hit 50. Babe held two records (career HRs and single season HRs) for 3 decades. Aaron never even challenged one of those records.

Ruth hit more HRs than entire teams.

Ruth hit 714 HRs in roughly only 2/3 of the ABs that Aaron needed to hit 755 (as well as only 80% of the ABs that Bonds has needed).

Now, let me add the disclaimer that I consider Aaron the HR king. But if someone wants to use a compilation of statistics and not a single stat (career HRs), it's not that outlandish or necessarily racist for them to put Ruth at the top. It's debates like these that make baseball great.

[K-State Spur]

I don't follow baseball much anymore, so when did he do this?

to the grand jury. for all the crap that the media gives him (often undeserved), they seem to accept his 'not knowingly using roids' excuse and you'll still hear talking heads say that there is no proof that he used banned substances...for some reason ignoring his own leaked sworn statements.

[DOMINATOR]

Re-read my post, I already pointed them out. Aaron was an incredible model of consistency, but:

Ruth had greater peaks. He hit 60 HRs in a single season (in 154 games). Aaron never hit 50. Babe held two records (career HRs and single season HRs) for 3 decades. Aaron never even challenged one of those records.

Ruth hit more HRs than entire teams.

Ruth hit 714 HRs in roughly only 2/3 of the ABs that Aaron needed to hit 755 (as well as only 80% of the ABs that Bonds has needed).

Now, let me add the disclaimer that I consider Aaron the HR king. But if someone wants to use a compilation of statistics and not a single stat (career HRs), it's not that outlandish or necessarily racist for them to put Ruth at the top. It's debates like these that make baseball great.
plus weren't the parks bigger then than when aaron played.
i remember reading someone did a study of the parks and how many pop ups would have been homeruns now. they estimated babe ruth would have had over 1000 homeruns in the parks today... now of course thats not considering the much better overall pitching today.

[whottt]

Why do people always assume if steroids had been around back in the old days, players wouldn't have used them to get an edge, same as they do now?

They cheated as much, if not more, back then...they threw world series, they doctored balls, they conspired to rig batting titles. They were racist....they drank, they slept around, they fought, they gambled.

They wanted as much money as they could get back then too.

Now this is not to say I think Bonds should get a free pass or anything...he deserves the derision he is getting...the same as anyone who cheated to break a record deserves...I just get tired of everyone acting like people shit gold 30 years ago and beyond and had never even heard of cheating or considered it....

The good old days weren't so good...they just didn't have a huge and all pervasive mass media to drag their dirty laundry out world wide instantaneously.

[whottt]

To the guy wondering about Ruth...

Ruth holds a shit load of pitching records as well...he's got one of the best winning PCT's ever by a pitcher, he won 114 games or something like that....he held the scoreless inning streaks records in the World series...he was undefeated as a pitcher in the world series. That's a whole different aspect of the game that Bonds, Aaron, Mays and Mantle never touched upon...Ted Williams and Ty Cobb either.


As for what Ruth would have done in todays era...he wouldn't have hit 340 for his career...but I'd say his power would still be close to unmatched...

500 feet is 500 feet in any era...and if anything, all the guys with 95+mph fast balls make it easier to hit the balls further now...

And you don't have to hit the ball 490 feet every time you want to hit a home run nowdays...

He might have hit more than 60 homers in todays era.

Ruth would have still had one of a kind power, he was a freak then, he'd be a freak now, freaks are like that...Nolan Ryan was still pitching no hitters and k'ing them up like a freak after the pitching era was over...Freaks are freaks.


Ruth? He hit undeniably hit the ball far, and he did it often. He grew up in a menial existence, he built his power by chopping wood...and young Ruth was not a fat man but a guy that supposedly had a physique chiseled from granite(check out photos of him with the Red Sox for proof of this)

60 homers? Yes...more probably, and probably more than 714...But doing it while batting 340 for a career? No way....the outfieders are just too quick now....that's why you don't see guys hitting 400 anymore...

or doing stuff like hitting 35 triples in a season...

[whottt]

The only other thing I'd criticize Bonds for...this dude plays the race card every chance he gets...yet he's the biggest silver spoon richboy spoiled brat child of privlege to ever step foot on the baseball diamond...he didn't grow up some povertry stricken opressed minority...he grew up with a Dad that was a world famous ball player who made good money and spoiled his son rotten...he always went to good schools, he got to spend his summers in dugouts hanging out with major league baseball players...and he got star treatment every where he went.

He's a spoiled brat fratboy...even the way he talks...he talks like a snobbish boor. Yet any time he gets criticized he almost instaneously pulls the race card...

That's what I don't like about him.


Hey Barry...pull the race card on Hank Aaron you spoiled brat.


On the diamond...he's a HOF'er whether he ever did steroids or not...I don't agree with FWDT's take that Barry is the best player of his generation though, Pre Steroids he was a 30 30, maybe even 40-40, or possibly even a 50-40, type guy that was a prett good fielder(although severely over-rated defensively), he was basically Ron Gant with a better eye at the plate, his PCT's are over inflated(and this he is over-rated) because he took so many damn walks...

It isn't lost on me that two of the guys with the most over-inflated stats ever due to BB, never won a WS...because they'd allow themself to be pitched around and leave the job of actually winning the game to the guys behind them.

While Pete Rose, who was a true master of the bat, won 4...not to mention so many games...and he never left it up to the guy behind him...or just stood by passively and let himself be pitched around, when it was time to win the game.

There are players I'd take over Bonds from his generation...

Griffey Jr was a better fielder and hitter in his peak...Arod is just as good of a basestealer and power hitter, plus he plays the infield(and is the best SS on the NY Roster). I mean Arod was arguably the best defensive SS in the game prior to the move to third...he damn sure had the best arm. Pujols is a freak. Guys like Molitor and Brett were better leaders and competitors.


If I am building a fantasy team I probably take Barry...but not if my goal is to win a WS. That'd be like chosing Shawn Marion #1 to win an NBA title.


Edit: Rickey Henderson deserves a mention as the greatest of Barry's generation...Rickey at his peak was a force...and if not for the Roid years, Barry's career wouldn't look as good as Rickey's. And Rickey undoubtedly loves the game, media savvy or not, just for the sake of playing it, without fame or fortune...he proved it at the end of his career.

[TheAuthority]

Bonds is the greatest and most of the haters are just jealous. Just like when all the hate comes to the Spurs from most NBA cities. If Bonds were on your team you'd be happy and almost all you morons would be happy to cash in on that baseball that will be worth millions soon.

Bonds is the greatest? Bonds isn't even the best player of his generation. Griffey is. Griffey would have been breaking this record, clean, if it wasn't for his injuries. Bonds played LEFT FIELD. Griffey played CENTER FIELD. Big difference there. Hands down, Junior owns Bonds.

[K-State Spur]

If not for injuries, Griffey may have ended up hitting HRs. And Griffey is the superior defender. But nobody KNOWS that he has been clean.

but better? nay...

Griffey has posted 4 seasons in his entire career of 1.000+ OPS (and ZERO since 1996). Bonds has done that 15 times in the past 16 years. Griffey's career high OPS is 1.076 - an excellent mark in 1994. Barry has exceeded that number 8 times.

[whottt]

If not for injuries, Griffey may have ended up hitting HRs. And Griffey is the superior defender. But nobody KNOWS that he has been clean.

but better? nay...

Griffey has posted 4 seasons in his entire career of 1.000+ OPS (and ZERO since 1996). Bonds has done that 15 times in the past 16 years. Griffey's career high OPS is 1.076 - an excellent mark in 1994. Barry has exceeded that number 8 times.



You sure did use a lot of words to say you love BB inflated stats.


Pete Rose had a shitty OPS...yet won more games than any player in history...including 4 WS...including leading the Phillies to the only WS win in their 150 year history.


Griffy Jr was a CF originally, a true GG CF that made spectacular defensive plays, ...and he was a much better power hitter. Much much better....


I agree that we'll never know if Griffey did steroids...and the injuries he went through seem to indicate he might have...at the same time...most of Griffey's major injuries were sustained on defense....true defensive players do usually have their careers cut short to injuries...running into walls and diving around in the outfield destroys your body.

I don't think I've ever seen Barry dive for a ball in the outfield...he had a great arm(but not good enough to beat Sid Bream) and didn't make stupid errors and that's about it.

Junior would run up walls and catch the ball...he made one catch that was 2 or 3 feet over the wall...in CF.

He was a much much better fielder than Bonds...and prior to Bonds roid binge Griffey Jr was the more highly regarded player. If not for 73 and the BB creating fear the number induced....Griffey Jr would get it.


When MLB had their All Century Team, Griffey was on it...Bonds wasn't. Then all of a sudden Barry jacked 30+ more HR in a season than he ever had before.

[Spurminator]

You know what pisses me off about Bonds more than steroids? The fact that you had to throw it through the eye of a needle to get a called strike on him from 2000-2004.

[K-State Spur]

if you want to discount what bonds did because of the steroids, i'm perfectly fine with that. but nobody can say that griffey has been the superior player if you ignore the steroids aspect. griffey did/does have a better all-around game, but bonds has put up astronomical numbers that nobody in recent history has compared to.

as for Pete Rose having a shitty OPS? He posted a greater than 100 OPS+ a whopping 16 times in his career, including 14 years in a row. Now, his OPS doesn't put him amongst baseball's all-time greats, but in my ever so humble opinion, Rose himself is not amongst baseball's all-time greats. A very good player for a very very long time (and a hall of famer if not for the gambling), but also maybe the most overrated player in baseball history.

[K-State Spur]

You know what pisses me off about Bonds more than steroids? The fact that you had to throw it through the eye of a needle to get a called strike on him from 2000-2004.

agreed. he's got that Paul O'Neill thing going where if he doesn't swing, it's not a strike.

[J.T.]

WGAF if he cheated?

I'd like to see any of you fuckers look me in the eye and say you never cheated in your life.

[Flight3107]

If Bonds gets an * next to his name, then so does Aaron.

Aaron admitted to taking greenies before playing games as far back as 1968

[whottt]

WGAF if he cheated?

I'd like to see any of you fuckers look me in the eye and say you never cheated in your life.


Fine then...he's a cheater with a major record, and that's all he is...he's not some heroic figure to be celebrated by generations to come...he's a self centered brat...with a big ass record.

Fair enough?

[Spurminator]

Maybe this will cause baseball fans to pay more attention to what actually happens on the field instead of obsessing over numbers as they have for far too long. Maybe now future Craig Biggios won't be overlooked while we fawn over .260 hitters with 50 homeruns.

[K-State Spur]

If Bonds gets an * next to his name, then so does Aaron.

Aaron admitted to taking greenies before playing games as far back as 1968

While I agree somewhat with the tone of your post, there is a difference that greenies were not a banned substance when Aaron played.

The biggest myth in the whole steroid scandal is that they were not against baseball rules. This is 100% false, steroids have been banned in baseball since the early 90s, there was just no testing/enforcement of the policy until recently.

[K-State Spur]

Maybe this will cause baseball fans to pay more attention to what actually happens on the field instead of obsessing over numbers as they have for far too long. Maybe now future Craig Biggios won't be overlooked while we fawn over .260 hitters with 50 homeruns.

I don't see how anybody can say without a doubt that Biggio was clean. He's a little guy who had some pop. But after Raffy (big-time power in college, arguably the perfect left-handed power stroke, flabby body, swore to congress that he was clean...PERIOD), I don't see how anybody can trust anybody 100% anymore. Now, I'm in no way accusing Biggio, just saying...

[K-State Spur]

WGAF if he cheated?

I'd like to see any of you fuckers look me in the eye and say you never cheated in your life.

actually a better question would be how many people have made millions dollars by cheating and have the greatest achievements of their professional lives based on a lie? i haven't, have you?

don't give me that whole 'if you do 65 in a 55, you have no right to criticize bonds' argument.

[greenroom]

Probably one of the best writing that I have seen Buck do.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/stories/MYSA080607.01D..BuckHarvey.Bonds.en.34a679f.html
Buck Harvey: A milestone - When Bonds gets a break

Web Posted: 08/06/2007 05:01 PM CDT

Buck Harvey
San Antonio Express-News

Bud Selig didn't know what to do Saturday night. The baseball rose toward left field, and Selig froze as if he had been, well, injected with something.
Cameras were on him, and he knew that. But Selig didn't clap, he didn't smile, he didn't nod. With an awkward pose, Selig reacted as if Barry Bonds had done something for the first time instead of the 755th.

Selig didn't have a plan, which is fitting. Selig and baseball didn't have one when it came to steroids, either. The sport let this happen, when track and field had a bead on illegal drugs two decades ago, and that's why Bonds isn't the villain so many say he is.

Bonds simply did what baseball players have done for generations. He used an available edge.

Make no mistake. It's almost certain Bonds took a series of enhancements stronger than flaxseed oil, and it's obvious without a lab test that he's been a jerk. Some athletes try to hide the sour side; Bonds sometimes flaunts his.

It's this combination that has made it so easy to turn him into pure evil. He "pierces the soul of baseball," as one sportswriter put it recently, and others use more common words. "Cheat" and "liar" are among them, and they are not inaccurate.

But somewhere in this morality play a few things get lost. One is Bonds the ballplayer. Right or wrong, just or unjust, he is one of the best dozen players in the game's history.

These last few weeks only add to that. He didn't have to endure the raw prejudice that Hank Aaron faced. But to play under these conditions — with Selig, Aaron and so many cool to him — says something about his own mental toughness.

He's the premier player of this era, as tainted as this era may be. And that's why the San Diego crowd got it right Saturday. The fans acknowledged something special had happened.

Should Bonds be one swing from the record? No one thinks that, given the visual and statistical evidence. Still, every era comes with an asterisk.

Few hit homers in the dead-ball era, and no black man hit home runs in the Babe Ruth era. Night games changed the sport, as did greenies used to get up the next day. The slider is a modern invention, as is the middle reliever, set-up man and closer.

Aaron had something else on his side. He played about half of his career in an Atlanta ballpark nicknamed "The Launching Pad." He didn't cause this, but he used the edge nonetheless.

How much? In 1971, Aaron hit the most homers of his career, and 31 came at home and only 16 on the road.

Just as telling was 1973. Then, four National League players hit 40 or more home runs. Three of them were Braves. Aaron, in his final season of high home-run productivity, was only third on his team.

The Atlanta leader was Davey Johnson, a future manager with San Antonio roots. He hit 43 home runs and set a major-league record for second basemen. In his previous eight seasons with another team, Johnson had hit a combined 66.

Bonds, in contrast, plays in a ballpark that works against him. But few point this out because no one wants to give Bonds a break right now.

Bonds absorbs all negativity, and Alex Rodriguez proves that. He's been targeted in the tabloids for everything from infidelity to screaming behind opposing infielders on pop-ups. Yet now, after hitting 500 home runs faster than anyone in history, he gets a pass.

Is it coincidence he's on pace to pass Bonds when it took someone 33 years to catch Aaron? Most just want A-Rod to do it.

A-Rod may be clean, no matter what Jose Canseco suggests, but the era isn't. After all, the pitcher who gave up No. 755 to Bonds was suspended for using performance-enhancing substances while in the minor leagues in 2005.

Yet Bonds is still singled out, as if he's the only one, when he's just the best one. And if he hits 756 tonight, those outside of San Francisco will turn away and not acknowledge his greatness.

Selig, ever unsure, won't try to correct that. It's easier than admitting the truth.

[BUMP]

the outfieders are just too quick now....that's why you don't see guys hitting 400 anymore...

thats something to consider too, as the dimensions were much bigger back then.

I always thought it was due to the fact that you would face about three pitchers a night and you couldn't get a feel for them, but in complete games were obviously much more common back then.

[Spurminator]

I don't see how anybody can say without a doubt that Biggio was clean. He's a little guy who had some pop. But after Raffy (big-time power in college, arguably the perfect left-handed power stroke, flabby body, swore to congress that he was clean...PERIOD), I don't see how anybody can trust anybody 100% anymore. Now, I'm in no way accusing Biggio, just saying...

I didn't mean to suggest Biggio couldn't have possibly used performance-enhancing drugs, but his type of game on the field didn't really necessitate unnatural strength. My point is that I think in the last 20 years or so, we've too often measured a player's greatness by his HR numbers.

[FromWayDowntown]

I didn't mean to suggest Biggio couldn't have possibly used performance-enhancing drugs, but his type of game on the field didn't really necessitate unnatural strength. My point is that I think in the last 20 years or so, we've too often measured a player's greatness by his HR numbers.

That's undoubtedly true. Mark McGwire was a fairly mediocre major league hitter, but (for whatever reason) an exceptional power hitter. In his famous 70 HR season, McGwire had a total of 61 singles and more strikeouts than hits. I'm not sure why a batter would be deemed successful if he struck out more frequently than he reached base by hit. For that reason, I've argued with friends that I don't think McGwire ever should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer, regardless of the suspicions heaped on him. To me, McGwire is a somewhat more prolific version of Dave Kingman, without the surliness. I don't find either to have been a particularly great player.

[K-State Spur]

That's undoubtedly true. Mark McGwire was a fairly mediocre major league hitter, but (for whatever reason) an exceptional power hitter. In his famous 70 HR season, McGwire had a total of 61 singles and more strikeouts than hits. I'm not sure why a batter would be deemed successful if he struck out more frequently than he reached base by hit. For that reason, I've argued with friends that I don't think McGwire ever should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer, regardless of the suspicions heaped on him. To me, McGwire is a somewhat more prolific version of Dave Kingman, without the surliness. I don't find either to have been a particularly great player.

whoa, whoa, whoa. in that season, he may have only hit 61 singles - but he walked 162(!!!) times - for an OBP of .470! You don't have to be a moneyball nut to know that an on-base percentage that high is extremely valuable to any offense. Add in a .750 slugging percentage, and you are getting extraordinary production in any era. (albeit by juicing)

For reference, Dave Kingman had a career OBP of just .302 (which is awful in any era), and was only above .330 twice in his entire career.