I thought these people didn't exist?

[George Gervin's Afro]

HANAHAN, South Carolina (AP) -- Sametta Heyward was in a bind. The single mother was scheduled to start a double shift at 3 p.m., and her baby sitter had just canceled.


Attorney Andy Savage talks with Sametta Heyward before her bail hearing Tuesday in Hanahan, South Carolina.

1 of 2 "She was either told to come to work or be fired, or she was afraid to call in sick -- one of those things," said police Lt. Michael Fowler.

She made it to her job at a county-run group home July 29, a typically warm summer day. After eight hours, she called a supervisor and said she had to leave because of child-care issues.

According to her employer, she didn't tell the supervisor or a co-worker that for all that time, she had left her 1-year-old daughter and 4-year-old son in her Chevy Cavalier hatchback, parked on a residential street.

She had left Triniti and Shawn with battery-powered fans, food and drinks, but it was not nearly enough to combat the sweltering conditions inside. She later told relatives that when she got to the car at 11:30 p.m., the children were unconscious and had weak pulses.

A day later, police found her at her apartment wailing, "Oh, my babies!"

Officers said in a police report that she tried to kick and bite them and asked them to kill her. The bodies of the children, bathed and dressed, were found wrapped in trash bags and stuffed under the sink.

Heyward, 27, was charged with two counts of homicide by child abuse. A funeral for the children was held Saturday.

Lab tests are pending that could help determine whether the children died in the stifling car or sometime after their mother rushed their limp bodies back to their tiny apartment.

A host of other questions remain unanswered: Why didn't she take the children inside the group home? Did she ever check on them? Why didn't she tell her supervisor that the baby sitter had canceled? If the children were alive when she got to them, why didn't she seek medical help?

People who know her say they considered her a loving mother, despite a life that turned tough long before she moved into the 252-square-foot efficiency apartment.

"She and her kids were always happy, smiling and joking," said Tony Smith, who lived a few doors down and often shared meals with the family.

Smith's wife, Sheryce Robertson, would sometimes baby-sit, but Robertson was sick when Heyward asked her to care for the kids that Sunday.

It was an average summer day by South Carolina standards: 88 degrees. But the inside of the car would have been like an oven, according to experts, who say the children may not have had much of a chance even if the windows were cracked.

"If it's in direct sunlight, you can easily get temperatures of 130 or 140 degrees in a car in 10 or 15 minutes," said Dr. Keith Borg, an emergency room physician at the Medical University of South Carolina. "At that kind of temperature, it could kill an infant or a small child in minutes."

Her friends and her bosses -- and even the officers who arrested her -- say Heyward had been trying her best: working long hours and providing for her children.

In May, she and her children had moved into the $185-a-week apartment in Hanahan, a bedroom community of about 14,000 people some 15 miles from Charleston. She told the apartment complex manager they wouldn't be there long, that she was already looking for another place.

She had been arrested twice in the past three years, but she was not prosecuted on a charge of hindering an officer and was found not guilty of first-degree criminal domestic violence in February 2006.

A few months before the move, she put a newborn up for adoption. A 12-year-old son lives with his father in Maryland.

If those things affected her, it didn't show on the job. In a recent statement, the Disabilities Board of Charleston County said Heyward "was a valued employee who received good evaluations of her work" and was well-regarded by staff and clients.

Her lawyer, Andy Savage, said he hopes a mental evaluation will shed light on what happened.

"Neighbors see her as a great mother. This isn't a woman who beat her kids," he said. "Suppose she went to work that night and left them at home. Would that have been better?" E-mail to a friend


I just wanted to pass long an interesting story. This is a perfect example of what many people on the right refuse to acknowledge exist. Everyday issues that many in the political arena just don't understand. This example shows how the notion of tax credits for healthcare etc is foolish and impractictal. I get tired of people on the right not excepting that there are poor people who do want o make things right and work hard. Yet in the end it's still not enough. There are 2 America's whether you like it or not..

[TheAuthority]

I'm guessing she wasn't white.

[boutons_]

Probably not, but does it matter?

Due to discrimination, a higher percentage of blacks and hispanics live like that.

Europeans know that you can hit it really big in the US, but they also know that you can also be really fucked over in the USA.

A fundamental difference between the USA and Europe is while both continents realize that the poor always have been and always will be there, the Europeans have more compassion and build safety nets, while the US lets people go to hell. The Europeans agree with biological Darwinism and laugh at technically advanced USA being full of creationists, while the more "religious", anti-scientific USA is quite happy with, even enthusiastic for social/economic Darwinism.

[TheAuthority]

It does matter. Why do you think they get discriminated against? For situations just like this. I find it very hard to believe someone white would do this. That might be racist, but it's also truth. If minorities don't want whites to continue to look down on them, this isn't the way to go about earning their respect. And let's not kid ourselves, racism is still everywhere you look.

[xrayzebra]

Probably not, but does it matter?

Due to discrimination, a higher percentage of blacks and hispanics live like that.

Europeans know that you can hit it really big in the US, but they also know that you can also be really fucked over in the USA.

A fundamental difference between the USA and Europe is while both continents realize that the poor always have been and always will be there, the Europeans have more compassion and build safety nets, while the US lets people go to hell. The Europeans agree with biological Darwinism and laugh at technically advanced USA being full of creationists, while the more "religious", anti-scientific USA is quite happy with, even enthusiastic for social/economic Darwinism.

Taxpayers money. Over three trillion and counting.
And you say we have no safety nets. Guess she had
no family or friends to call or another baby sitter.
You cannot legislate to correct bad judgement. But
you have them try.

[SRJ]

Well, two less of them exist now.

[Wild Cobra]

Funny thing how things like that happen with all the social programs available.

You can always find that one in a million example, but it does not justify increasing the social welfare system. I see her as an example of no matter how much social welfare is available, people still do stupid things.

The war on poverty has not helped us as a whole, it has hurt us. We are gaining no ground, and removing the need for a larger number of people to find work.

[Nesterofish]

Dumb monkee cant bread in jail. Two ded blackj kids is an emproovmint.

[TLWisfoine]

It does matter. Why do you think they get discriminated against? For situations just like this. I find it very hard to believe someone white would do this. That might be racist, but it's also truth. If minorities don't want whites to continue to look down on them, this isn't the way to go about earning their respect. And let's not kid ourselves, racism is still everywhere you look

No shit Adolf. All you have to do is look in the mirror.

[fyatuk]

That's very sad.

I firmly believe all the entitlement programs, etc, hurt more than they help, though. Get rid of those and everyone who makes below 130k a year gets about a 15% raise, plus business's would pay less taxes and prices would drop as well (theoretically. I wouldn't have an issue with leaving the business paid portion of payroll taxes since I doubt they'd drop their prices enough to compensate anyway).

Of course, my biggest problem with the "entitlement" programs is they should be state level, not federal. Not neccessarily because of constitutional issues like most people claim (they could fit under "general welfare" ideal), but because the states know better what their citizens need and there would be less processing time, etc.

[TLWisfoine]

It does matter. Why do you think they get discriminated against? For situations just like this. I find it very hard to believe someone white would do this. That might be racist, but it's also truth. If minorities don't want whites to continue to look down on them, this isn't the way to go about earning their respect. And let's not kid ourselves, racism is still everywhere you look.

That's because they are too busy drowning there children!!!

[Extra Stout]

That's because they are too busy drowning there children!!!
Andrea Yates clearly was just "passing" for white.

[jochhejaam]

This is a perfect example of what many people on the right refuse to acknowledge exist. Everyday issues that many in the political arena just don't understand. This example shows how the notion of tax credits for healthcare etc is foolish and impractictal. I get tired of people on the right not excepting that there are poor people who do want o make things right and work hard. Yet in the end it's still not enough.

Great disconnect between the elements of the story and your conclusions.
Amateurish soapboxing.

Other than a personal opinion, do you have any proof that would support your assertion that "many" on the "right" don't accept that there are good, hard working poor who have trouble making ends meet?

[TheAuthority]

No shit Adolf. All you have to do is look in the mirror.

I believe that everyone is racist, just some more than others. I guarantee every white person on earth that's capable of independent thinking has said the word ###### before, in a hateful manner. On the flip side, I also believe all blacks have done the same, and believe they are entitled to things, because of being slaves over a century ago. In my eyes, they should be lucky to be where they are at. Wake up, do you see chains around your arms and legs? No. Stop complaining. They have the opportunity to thrive and flourish in a country like America. As shitty as the state of America is, it's still the land of opportunity... for everyone. All races. Yet, most of them will leech off of the system for the good portion of their pathetic lives. They act like they're being held back by white people. If you're intelligent enough and you're competent, you can get any job you want in America. "The white man" isn't holding you back. Stop using that as a crutch. It's disgusting.

[smeagol]

Nice to see people showing their true colors on this thread.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Great disconnect between the elements of the story and your conclusions.
Amateurish soapboxing.

Other than a personal opinion, do you have any proof that would support your assertion that "many" on the "right" don't accept that there are good, hard working poor who have trouble making ends meet?



Where have you been the last 12 years? The GOP has legislated as if most poor folks are just lazy and looking for a handout. They have done their best to gut social programs and entitlements for the better part of the last decade. Would you care to guess their reasoning? I posted this story to prove that not all poor people are looking for a handout and doing their best to survive. There are people everyday having to make very difficult decisions like this lady did. Any post about defending cutting social/entitlement programs always comes with a caveat such as " maybe people shouldn't buy nice tennis shoes or a plasma TVs". Come on man don't play dumb.


Now with that being said, I will admit that there are lazy people looking for a handouts and doing everything they can to get out of working. However the majority are people trying to make ends meet and could use a little healp periodically so they can achieve economic independence.

[smeagol]

How can rightwing hardliners call themselves Christians?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=George Gervin's Afro] Where have you been the last 12 years? The GOP has legislated as if most poor folks are just lazy and looking for a handout. They have done their best to gut social programs and entitlements for the better part of the last decade. Would you care to guess their reasoning? I posted this story to prove that not all poor people are looking for a handout and doing their best to survive. There are people everyday having to make very difficult decisions like this lady did.


I'm not surprised that you didn't/couldn't back up your charge that many on the right don't believe that there are honest, hard working poor . Only the most ignorant of people believe that, and for the most part they aren't in a position to affect Government's social expenditures to the extent that the poor are forgotten.
In essence you've posted nothing that would be enlightening to anyone on this board, and on top of that you've made a couple of accusations that you haven't substantiated.




Any post about defending cutting social/entitlement programs always comes with a caveat such as " maybe people shouldn't buy nice tennis shoes or a plasma TVs". Come on man don't play dumb.
Not sure why you added this? It's nothing more than another ridiculous over generalization, and certainly doesn't remotely qualify as a point that would support any of your arguements.


If you really want to see the poor helped, focus on why they aren't being properly educated and come up with a plan to ensure a good education (more money per student hasn't helped). In large part it's because of a breakdown in the traditional two parent family, with at least one of them working. They're being raised in extremely dysfunctional households, where the primary caregiver is a single uneducated mother. For far too many, fathering a child has become nothing more that a by-product of sex with the biological fathers offering no other form of accountability or responsibility beyond cleaning their genitals after the orgasm. (And before you go off on another of your tangents GGA, yes, there are many good, hard working poor. I've worked at a Government subsidized Housing Authority for almost 25 years, so I'm in the know)
It's a morality problem that leads to almost certain poverty, and it's assinine to place the blame on the "right".

This moral vacuum plays a huge role in the poverty of many, but as we all know, it's not the Government's role to fill that vacuum. Thankfully we have plenty of righteous politicians who would have us believe that in lieu of morality, accoutability and responsibility, we have an antidote for poverty through massive entitlements and social expenditures...


Anyone up for doubling the present tax burden as an answer to alleviating the poverty that results from a lack of education and morality?
Makes perfect sense to me...
While were at it I'd like to exhibit how a simple box of toothpicks can be stragecially engineered in such of way as to dam up the Mississippi River.

[clambake]

How can rightwing hardliners call themselves Christians?

When it's convenient to play the god card. Bring up the lord, and you've just duped millions of believers. You don't even have to have an authentic expression of faith. A very effective tool.

[TLWisfoine]

I believe that everyone is racist, just some more than others. I guarantee every white person on earth that's capable of independent thinking has said the word ###### before, in a hateful manner. On the flip side, I also believe all blacks have done the same, and believe they are entitled to things, because of being slaves over a century ago. In my eyes, they should be lucky to be where they are at. Wake up, do you see chains around your arms and legs? No. Stop complaining. They have the opportunity to thrive and flourish in a country like America. As shitty as the state of America is, it's still the land of opportunity... for everyone. All races. Yet, most of them will leech off of the system for the good portion of their pathetic lives. They act like they're being held back by white people. If you're intelligent enough and you're competent, you can get any job you want in America. "The white man" isn't holding you back. Stop using that as a crutch. It's disgusting.

It's racist pieces of shit like you that make a good number of black people distrusting of whites. Fact of the matter is many well educated hard working black people have been held back from being successful because of racism be it blatent or overt and you alluded to the fact that racism still exists today so what is it to say that people such as yourself who think blacks are inferior don't hold positions in power and deny these people an opportunity.

Also what the hell is it with people saying that the majority of black people are leeching off the system. Just because you may have encountered a few blacks in your life who do this doesn't mean the majority are doing it. Were you taught this at the david duke convention. You do know that it is single white female mothers who are the primary benificiaries of welfare don't you, and white females have been the primary benificiaries of Affirmative Action as well.

Now go back to your little Klan meeting!!!


http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm not surprised that you didn't/couldn't back up your charge that many on the right don't believe that there are honest, hard working poor .
In essence you've posted nothing that would be enlightening to anyone on this board, and on top of that you've made a couple of accusations that you haven't substantiated.

So I was wrong to assume that the GOP, as a whole, doesn't include many people? The same party that has tried to end entitlements and social programs? Why is that? What is the reasoning behind ending programs that help the poor? These programs aren't the answer, rather they are a portion of the remedies to help people out of poverty. Since you seem to know what 'many' is. Will you quantify it for me?



Only the most ignorant of people believe that, and for the most part they aren't in a position to affect Government's social expenditures to the extent that the poor are forgotten.

Don't affect Govt.s' expenditures? They keep voting for the GOP! The party that stand for ending entitlement and social programs. What are the major reasons why ? Because they think those people on these programs are lazy and looking for handouts!


If you really want to see the poor helped, focus on why they aren't being properly educated and come up with a plan to ensure a good education (more money per student hasn't helped). In large part it's because of a breakdown in the traditional two parent family, with at least one of them working. They're being raised in extremely dysfunctional households, where the primary caregiver is a single uneducated mother. For far too many, fathering a child has become nothing more that a by-product of sex with the biological fathers offering no other form of accountability or responsibility beyond cleaning their genitals after the orgasm. (And before you go off on another of your tangents GGA, yes, there are many good, hard working poor. I've worked at a Government subsidized Housing Authority for almost 25 years, so I'm in the know)
It's a morality problem that leads to almost certain poverty, and it's assinine to place the blame on the "right".

This moral vacuum plays a huge role in the poverty of many, but as we all know, it's not the Government's role to fill that vacuum. Thankfully we have plenty of righteous politicians who would have us believe that in lieu of morality, accoutability and responsibility, we have an antidote for poverty through massive entitlements and social expenditures...


None of this puts food on the table for those who need it. I think you have repeated well known issues regarding the overall 'problem of the poverty but this is the real world, today issue we are dealing with. Everyday people have to make decisions like this lady did. There is a need for a TEMPORARY support network for people who are doing their best to get out of poverty. I am all for having 2 parents in a home with one parent staying at home to raise junior but in today's society if you want to live in a good school distrct it ain't cheap. So as a parent do you work to make the money needed to move? Or do you stay home and live in a crappy school district? Which is the better solution? You say there is no govt role to fill the morals vaccum for which I agree however there are still going to be hard working people who fall through the cracks. What about them? Are they just out of luck ? What about a parent who abandons their family? Is that family out of luck? My girlfriend who has taught for 12 years hates the fcat that people take advantage of the free lunch program and she sees it first hand. You know what? She says that there are too many kids who do need it so ending the program is not an option. I certainly don't think these programs are the answer, rather they are a net that hepls people who want to help themselves.



Anyone up for doubling the present tax burden as an answer to alleviating the poverty that results from a lack of education and morality?
Makes perfect sense to me...


Please find me an example of any politician who wants to double the tax burden. I guess since you have determined that making generalizations casues a need to back them up. Please back this statement up..

[Jamtas#2]

I just wanted to pass long an interesting story. This is a perfect example of what many people on the right refuse to acknowledge exist. Everyday issues that many in the political arena just don't understand. This example shows how the notion of tax credits for healthcare etc is foolish and impractictal. I get tired of people on the right not excepting that there are poor people who do want o make things right and work hard. Yet in the end it's still not enough. There are 2 America's whether you like it or not..

I don't understand where you got the connection between a mother leaving her children in a hot car due to the baby-sitter canceling with tax credits for healthcare being foolish?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I don't understand where you got the connection between a mother leaving her children in a hot car due to the baby-sitter canceling with tax credits for healthcare being foolish?


My point was that a she had to make choice between going to work or getting fired. She is an example of today's working poor that some seem to think don't exist. The primary response to the working poor by our bretheren on the right is tax credits for people like her. tax credits for healthcare, childcare, etc.. it's not practical for someone like this mother. Her babysitter reneged and she had to choose between her children's safety and being homeless. There should be some sort of safety net..

[Jamtas#2]

My point was that a she had to make choice between going to work or getting fired. She is an example of today's working poor that some seem to think don't exist. The primary response to the working poor by our bretheren on the right is tax credits for people like her. tax credits for healthcare, childcare, etc.. it's not practical for someone like this mother. Her babysitter reneged and she had to choose between her children's safety and being homeless. There should be some sort of safety net..

Well, if the tax credits could be used to place the child in a day care and not have to just depend on one individual baby sitting, that would have worked in this example correct? If not, what would be your solution that would solve a problem like this?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=George Gervin's Afro]So I was wrong to assume that the GOP, as a whole, doesn't include many people? The same party that has tried to end entitlements and social programs? Why is that? What is the reasoning behind ending programs that help the poor? These programs aren't the answer, rather they are a portion of the remedies to help people out of poverty. Since you seem to know what 'many' is. Will you quantify it for me?
You stated that “many” on the “right” don’t believe that there are good, hard working poor that are unable to make ends meet, a point that you have yet to substantiate. (That was a weak attempt on your part to dodge the apparent fact that you aren’t able to back up your claim).



Don't affect Govt.s' expenditures? They keep voting for the GOP! The party that stand for ending entitlement and social programs. What are the major reasons why ? Because they think those people on these programs are lazy and looking for handouts!

I’m sure you can provide that the GOP’s platform clearly states that entitlements and social programs should be eliminated because the recipients are lazy people…
Seriously GGA, have you ever considered pursuing a career in filling hot air balloons?





None of this puts food on the table for those who need it.

Other than for the reasons of parental neglect and ignorance I'm not aware of any epidemic in America where people are starving to death.



I think you have repeated well known issues regarding the overall 'problem of the poverty but this is the real world, today issue we are dealing with. Everyday people have to make decisions like this lady did. There is a need for a TEMPORARY support network for people who are doing their best to get out of poverty. I am all for having 2 parents in a home with one parent staying at home to raise junior but in today's society if you want to live in a good school distrct it ain't cheap So as a parent do you work to make the money needed to move? Or do you stay home and live in a crappy school district? Which is the better solution?.
If you don't have the support of a parent it matters little what school district you live in. Rarely will a child succeed when there's no encouragement or participation from a parent.





You say there is no govt role to fill the morals vaccum for which I agree however there are still going to be hard working people who fall through the cracks. What about them? Are they just out of luck ?
By falling through the cracks you mean what? IMO, if you have bread on the table and a roof over your head you haven't fallen through a crack.
There are few hard working educated people who fall through the cracks, and we've already gone over why, in large part, they aren't receiving an education. No amount of entitlements or social programs can fix that. It's a moral dilemma, and that's not a problem that's going to fixed by multi-billion dollar social welfare programs.





Please find me an example of any politician who wants to double the tax burden. I guess since you have determined that making generalizations casues a need to back them up. Please back this statement up..
I posed a question, you made a statement as if were fact. A question begs for an answer, a statement, if there's truth to it, begs for facts.

[Frank Brickowski]

^ Low income single mothers have access to subsidized child care. I know I have three that currently work for me. The help for these people is there, WIC, CHIP, SSI, Lonestar etc. However, there is no help for someone stupid enough to leave to leave babies in a vehicle for eight hours. Yet, some on this board think that the Federal government is the answer.

[clambake]

The question might be how employers can make someone choose between their job or the welfare of a their children. One of many abuses of the poor. Many act this way without conscience. Employers don't face the daily struggles that their minimum wage(or worse) employees do.

[DarkReign]

TLWisfoine, where the hell was the attitude you portray in this thread in the Mike Vick thread?

Jesus, its like night and day.

[George Gervin's Afro]

^ Low income single mothers have access to subsidized child care. I know I have three that currently work for me. The help for these people is there, WIC, CHIP, SSI, Lonestar etc. However, there is no help for someone stupid enough to leave to leave babies in a vehicle for eight hours. Yet, some on this board think that the Federal government is the answer.


In this specific case I don't think govt is the answer. in fact overall i don't think govt. is the answer, rather govt should at least provide temporary safety nets for low incomce families. Do any of those prgrams you mention help with childcare?

[George Gervin's Afro]

[QUOTE]
You stated that “many” on the “right” don’t believe that there are good, hard working poor that are unable to make ends meet, a point that you have yet to substantiate. (That was a weak attempt on your part to dodge the apparent fact that you aren’t able to back up your claim).




I’m sure you can provide that the GOP’s platform clearly states that entitlements and social programs should be eliminated because the recipients are lazy people…
Seriously GGA, have you ever considered pursuing a career in filling hot air balloons?






Other than for the reasons of parental neglect and ignorance I'm not aware of any epidemic in America where people are starving to death.



If you don't have the support of a parent it matters little what school district you live in. Rarely will a child succeed when there's no encouragement or participation from a parent.





By falling through the cracks you mean what? IMO, if you have bread on the table and a roof over your head you haven't fallen through a crack.
There are few hard working educated people who fall through the cracks, and we've already gone over why, in large part, they aren't receiving an education. No amount of entitlements or social programs can fix that. It's a moral dilemma, and that's not a problem that's going to fixed by multi-billion dollar social welfare programs.





I posed a question, you made a statement as if were fact. A question begs for an answer, a statement, if there's truth to it, begs for facts.


You have yet to quantify many. You have doged that several times as well. There are many on this board who feel like this and are die hard righties. Without interviewing and polling the entire population on the right can we at least accept a small sampling and attribute it proportionally to the entire population right wingers? I would be happy to back my statement when you let me know what will satisfy you. To me that's a weak argument because you continually reflect that question. I am willing to back my statement up as long I know what your definition of of many is. So I wait for an answer ..again.. The reason I ask is because I could provide polling etc.., but since you could continually move the goal post I would never succeed in verifying my statement. Quantify many? or run away and hide again.

[Jamtas#2]

The question might be how employers can make someone choose between their job or the welfare of a their children. One of many abuses of the poor. Many act this way without conscience. Employers don't face the daily struggles that their minimum wage(or worse) employees do.

Well, this is more a result of what they do and the work environment. I used to manage hourly workers in a union environment. This was in the serivce industry so that meant that if someone missed work, it didn't just wait for them the next day, the people there had to cover that person's assignment for the day. Union rules in the contract set a strict guideline on all issues including attendance. All employees (the best on down to the worst) had to be treated equally in regards to missing work, coming in late, etc regardless of performance. When exceptions were made, the union would file grievances with management on why employee "a" got the exception when employee "b" was written up, terminated etc.
When you work in the service industries, attendance to your job is very crucial. Its an unfortunate fact of life. As I'm sure that you wouldn't hire a baby sitter to look after your children who kept cancelling all the time regardless of the reason and leaving you in a hole, businesses have to run that way. (There are ways such as the Family Medical Leave Act which can help and provide authroized leave for employees in specific circumstances, regardless of how the employer feels.)

[George Gervin's Afro]

Just for you jochhejaam

http://www.savecalifornia.com/getinformed/latestupdate.php

So what's the bottom line? Today, 20 years after the federal welfare reform law, California government has stubbornly refused to give "tough love" to nearly half a million lazy, able-bodied adults. With Democrats in charge, the bums have been handed fish! But now that Republicans control the budget if they hold firm for a few more weeks, people who have been on welfare for five years could actually be forced to get a job...and set a much better example for their children. Forty-eight states are following the federal welfare reform law; so should California. The Senate Republicans' position on this is consistent with the Bible. The Apostle Paul taught, "If a man will not work, he shall not eat" (2 Thess 3:10). And younger widows who were idle were prohibited from receiving church financial aid (1 Tim 5:11-13).


http://pewforum.org/publications/reports/poll2002.pdf

Addressing Poverty
Americans are stronglysupportive of helping those in need.
Eight-in-ten (79%) say people should do more to help the needy, even if that
entails some personal sacrifice, while 67% favor more generous government
assistance to the poor. Majorities of all political groups – except conservative Republicans – support more generous government aid.Fully two-thirds would be willing to forgo tax cuts to do more to help the needy and 57% would accept cuts in government programs to achieve this goal. Race, ideology and partisanship are more important than religious affiliation in influencing these views. For instance, 85% of African-
Americans are in favor of holding back on tax cuts to provide more help to the needy, compared with 62% of whites.
While a majority of conservative Republicans (57%) disagree with the idea of making cuts in government programs to fund more aid to the needy, they are much more evenly divided over reducing tax cuts to fulfill this objective – 44% agree with that idea, while 47% disagree.



So again how many examples do I need to find. I could go on all night finding message boards and surveys to prove my point.



Jill Bergfeld from Sherrill, IA
2004-04-28

I dont think I should have to pay for someone elses mistakes or judgement calls on not working. I work very hard for my money and I just barley make it by and if I did not have to support all those lazy people out there I would be comfortable with my pay checks. I think that if someone gets pregnant of quit there job I should not have to work harder just to pay for them.

michael from scranton, pa
2004-02-20

I dont think its fair that the people who work their asses off for people on welfare can just sit around they should be held to same standards as people on unemployment.Also child support should also be a tax deduction for the payee,seeming that it is an out of pocket expense on the most part,some pay thousands a year with nothing to show for it.

[clambake]

Well, this is more a result of what they do and the work environment. I used to manage hourly workers in a union environment. This was in the serivce industry so that meant that if someone missed work, it didn't just wait for them the next day, the people there had to cover that person's assignment for the day. Union rules in the contract set a strict guideline on all issues including attendance. All employees (the best on down to the worst) had to be treated equally in regards to missing work, coming in late, etc regardless of performance. When exceptions were made, the union would file grievances with management on why employee "a" got the exception when employee "b" was written up, terminated etc.
When you work in the service industries, attendance to your job is very crucial. Its an unfortunate fact of life. As I'm sure that you wouldn't hire a baby sitter to look after your children who kept cancelling all the time regardless of the reason and leaving you in a hole, businesses have to run that way. (There are ways such as the Family Medical Leave Act which can help and provide authroized leave for employees in specific circumstances, regardless of how the employer feels.)

people who manage union employees aren't usually tied to the union, they're part of the management team. Still, I get your point. The grocery union here in cali takes union dues from minimum wage members.(Can you believe that shit?) A union that makes their minimum wage members pay dues? That's some of the craziest shit i've ever heard.

[Jamtas#2]

people who manage union employees aren't usually tied to the union, they're part of the management team. Still, I get your point. The grocery union here in cali takes union dues from minimum wage members.(Can you believe that shit?) A union that makes their minimum wage members pay dues? That's some of the craziest shit i've ever heard.

Management isn't tied to the union, but they are tied to the union contract that exists between the labor and management. When I was managing, I was California as well. It really sickened me to see how much the union takes from employees and how little they provide in return. In fact, where I worked, the union was only beneficial to the "bad" employees. The good employees hated the union and wated to get rid of them, but didn't know how. I as management could be sued if I had told them how to go about it. From my experience with unions, they are not at all what they were created to be. They care less about protecting their members than they do about pulling in income and playing politics.

[lebomb]

.

[TLWisfoine]

TLWisfoine, where the hell was the attitude you portray in this thread in the Mike Vick thread?

I was just trying to be nice then!!!

[jochhejaam]

Just for you jochhejaam

http://www.savecalifornia.com/getinformed/latestupdate.php


http://pewforum.org/publications/reports/poll2002.pdf

So again how many examples do I need to find. I could go on all night finding message boards and surveys to prove my point.

I have no idea what point you believe you've proven with these articles, and attempting to support your position with quotes from anonymous posts on message boards is laughable.

I believe it to be an effort in futility, but once again I'll post your quotes that you haven't come close to backing up, with the hope that you will either provide adequate support for them, or back down from them.

Here are the quotes:


1. "This is a perfect example of what many people on the right refuse to acknowledge exist."

2. "I get tired of people on the right not excepting that there are poor people who do want o make things right and work hard. Yet in the end it's still not enough"

You have not supported your ridiculous premise that the article you posted is a "perfect example of what many people on the right refuse to acknowledge exists" nor have you provided support for your generalization that "people on the right don't accept that there are poor people who do want to make things right and work hard".

Now have at it GGA.





p.s. Any more attempts on your part to foist off unrelated articles as support for your misguided charges will be considered nothing less than an affront to rational, reasonable thinking and may well result in the issuance of a Cease and Desist order.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I have no idea what point you believe you've proven with these articles, and attempting to support your position with quotes from anonymous posts on message boards is laughable.

I believe it to be an effort in futility, but once again I'll post your quotes that you haven't come close to backing up, with the hope that you will either provide adequate support for them, or back down from them.

Here are the quotes:


You have not supported your ridiculous premise that the article you posted is a "perfect example of what many people on the right refuse to acknowledge exists" nor have you provided support for your generalization that "people on the right don't accept that there are poor people who do want to make things right and work hard".

Now have at it GGA.



p.s. Any more attempts on your part to foist off unrelated articles as support for your misguided charges will be considered nothing less than an affront to rational, reasonable thinking and may well result in the issuance of a Cease and Desist order.



I am assuming now you want verbatum information? Let's tally what you have said that I can't use. Polling data, conservtaive websites, conservative message baords, state republican websites, etc... oh and you want proof..

[desflood]

I believe that everyone is racist, just some more than others. I guarantee every white person on earth that's capable of independent thinking has said the word ###### before, in a hateful manner. On the flip side, I also believe all blacks have done the same.
I have to ask this: Seriously? Don't throw your nasty little racist attributes over to the rest of us to feel less guilt about what you may have said or done.

I'll go crawling back into the sports forum now :lol

[Oh, Gee!!]

I find it very hard to believe someone white would do this. That might be racist, but it's also truth.

they usually just drown their kids

[Yonivore]

I just wanted to pass long an interesting story. This is a perfect example of what many people on the right refuse to acknowledge exist.
What? A life full to bad choices resulting in the deaths of two innocent children?

Happens all the time.


Everyday issues that many in the political arena just don't understand.
What's to understand? This woman set herself up for failure. Your story doesn't cover the details very well but, considering she had just put up a newborn for adoption and had a 12 year old living with his father, I'm thinking this is one irresponsible woman. Leaving your kids in a car, in the sun, then -- instead of seeking medical help -- taking them home to die?

Sorry, I don't care how nice she is -- she killed her kids. Now, in this case, living with that is probably punishment enough but, that people think she's a wonderful mom and are feeling all sorry for her, doesn't mitigate the fact that she made poor choices that led to this eventuality.


This example shows how the notion of tax credits for healthcare etc is foolish and impractictal.
No it doesn't.


I get tired of people on the right not excepting that there are poor people who do want o make things right and work hard. Yet in the end it's still not enough. There are 2 America's whether you like it or not..
I get tired of people like you excusing behavior that is completely avoidable and deaths that are completely preventable -- no matter how poor you are.

[TheAuthority]

they usually just drown their kids

Well, at least some calculated thinking goes into it when white people are the parties involved.

[TheAuthority]

I have to ask this: Seriously? Don't throw your nasty little racist attributes over to the rest of us to feel less guilt about what you may have said or done.

I'll go crawling back into the sports forum now :lol

Why would I feel guilty? I'm a realist. And I'm not sure what you mean by "done". Did you think I lynch blacks on the weekends? Or...?

[TLWisfoine]

^^^ Minorities also don't go drowning their children either!!! I'm not saying this out of hate and its not like I go out attacking white people because of their race, I'm just being a realist!!!

[Oh, Gee!!]

Well, at least some calculated thinking goes into it when white people are the parties involved.

Yes, intentionally killing one's children is a tad bit more evil than accidentally killing them. I'm not saying one race is more evil, I'm just saying.

[Oh, Gee!!]

.

[DarkReign]

Hitler = white dude
Ghengis Khan = asian dude
Napolean = white dude

So obviously, white people and asian people are fucking xenophobic nutbags hellbent on world domination.

Or, its just because a black person never had the opportunity to run the world. That needs some Affirmative Action like yesterday!

[TheAuthority]

Hitler = white dude
Ghengis Khan = asian dude
Napolean = white dude

So obviously, white people and asian people are fucking xenophobic nutbags hellbent on world domination.

Or, its just because a black person never had the opportunity to run the world. That needs some Affirmative Action like yesterday!

I'm going to go with the latter.

[smeagol]

Well, at least some calculated thinking goes into it when white people are the parties involved.
Did you take your white pointy hood and your white robe to write that or where you simply sporting your white epidermis and underpants?

[TheAuthority]

Did you take your white pointy hood and your white robe to write that or where you simply sporting your white epidermis and underpants?

WTB English class

[smeagol]

WTB English class
WTB?

My English is fine.

Worry about yourself.