Choke Artists

[Ghost Writer]

I had to wait a full 24 hours before posting after last night's disgrace.

I guess we've learned nothing from 0.4.

I suppose Ginobili and Parker can't take pressure off Duncan in 4th quarters yet.

And I guess it's true that offensively-challenged Bruce Bowen can't stop elite players from going for off any better than more well-rounded swingmen.

Finally, Popovich still can't figure out how to hang on to leads late.


I hate to bring it up again, but the Spurs could've prevented McGrady from hitting any of those three 3-pointers by fouling so he couldn't shoot them.

I have to admit that I was almost rooting for McGrady to stick it to the Spurs.

That's how digusted I was in the final 2 minutes of that game.

Awful.

:rolleyes

[timvp]

I knew Ghost would come in talking his "they should have fouled them" take.

Mang, that's not the answer to everything that has ever gone wrong with the Spurs.

[Ghost Writer]

I know that's not the answer to everything, but I play to win games.

I'd rather manipulate the rules that look like a bunch of f'n suckas.

Again.


Foul for krissakes.

Did Derek Fisher teach us nothing?

[timvp]

If the Spurs get in a free-throw shooting contest, they lose 90% of the time.

We're The Spurs.©

[Ghost Writer]

True dat.

But tell me a part of you didn't feel like you were watching a train wreck after McGrady's first 3 down the stretch.

I kept waiting for the other foot to drop.

And where was your stopper Bowen?

I can't remember the last time he held a good shooter in check.

[timvp]

I can't remember the last time he held a good shooter in check.

:lol

Try 95% of Spurs games or the first 47 minutes of that Rockets game.

[Ghost Writer]

No way.

Kobe and Peja and Ray Allen always get their numbers against Bowen.

And Bowen doesn't make them work on the other end.

And if Bowen can't stop T-Mac when it matters, then get him the F' out of the game and off the team.

Barry si being mismanaged like Ward was.

Pop does not have any patience for players who don't "get it" immediately.

And the regular season is meant for getting guys ingrained and not benched.


P.S.

Instead of letting T-Mac rain 3s, how about a foul?

[timvp]

Ray Allen has owned Bruce Bowen this year but other than TMac's miracle shots, point to another game where the other team's big scorer went off.

[Kori Ellis]

Ghost, TMac was something like 8-for-25 up until hitting his last few shots. Bowen was doing a good job on him.

[Ghost Writer]

It would be easier for you to name a top perimeter scorer that Bowen actually held in check.

P.S.

Your boy Brown played well last night until he stupidly passed the ball to Duncan who got fouled down the stretch and then turned the ball over on the critical play.

[Ghost Writer]

Define "good job"?

Most swingmen will yield 25-35 pts. to a top scorer.

That's what Bowen does.

Difference is, even guys like Eric Williams can score 10-20 in return.

Bowen don't.

[timvp]

Most swingmen will yield 25-35 pts. to a top scorer.

That's what Bowen does.

BS.

McGrady was the first opponent to score over 30 points on the Spurs.

Did they not teach you math at Quinnipiac?

[Kori Ellis]

Ghost, you talk so nonsensical. Bowen yielding 25 points on 35% shooting is better than someone else yielding 25 points on 50% shooting.

Also Eric Williams averages 11ppg and Bowen 7 or 8.

[Ghost Writer]

25, 26, 27, 28 and 29 are between 25-35 PPG.

Bowen's +/- scoring differential is lower that most every other starter at his position.

[Ghost Writer]

I don't give a d@mn if a guy scores 50 pts. on 2% shooting.

The bottom line is that Bowen gives up relatively the same amount of points as the average starter at his position, yet scores significantly less.

P.S.

Kori, not too many league leaders in scoring at the SG/SF spots shoot anywhere close to 50%. Be fair.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't give a d@mn if a guy scores 50 pts. on 2% shooting.

The bottom line is that Bowen gives up relatively the same amount of points as the average starter at his position, yet scores significantly less.

That in a nutshell explains your problem. If a guy still gets his points but has to take more shots to get them -- that's good D. If you make a guy take more shots -- that takes more shot opportunities from the rest of his team and thus makes it more likely you'll win. That's why FG% defense is so important.


Kori, not too many league leaders in scoring at the SG/SF spots shoot anywhere close to 50%

Yeah they shoot 40-45% -- but they get a lot of 50%+ nights on guys that aren't good defenders.

[T Park]

Why is it bad

that a guy takes 30 shots to get 25.

THats like what, 11 shots away from other players that could give the team more points??


This isnt worth arguing.


Rooting for the Spurs to loose??

Your officially not a spurs fan I see.

[SequSpur]

Bowen is there as a defensive presence.

Duncan, Manu and Parker are the scoring options. Bowen comes through usually when needed.

He ain't the fucking problem. The problem lies at center and point guard position. Lack of veteranship. Parker goes in the tank and the boy is called upon.

Nice plan.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Ray Allen has owned Bruce Bowen this year but other than TMac's miracle shots, point to another game where the other team's big scorer went off.

I'd judge Bowen's defensive capabilities by whether or not he's holding the opposition to below their scoring average.

Throwing out Ray Ray and Tmac lighting him up (not sure how you can throw them out, they account for 3 of our 4 losses), you've got (season scoring average in parentheses):

11/22 Bonzi Wells 10-17 FG, 2-3 3 pts, 26 points (12.0)
11/30 Josh Howard 7-15 FG, 0-1 3, 17 points (11.0)
11/26 Carmelo Anthony 9-22, 0-1, 24 points (20.5)
11/21 Morriss Peterson 4-7, 3-5, 16 points (7.5)
11/19 Paul Pierce 8-12, 1-3, 25 points (21.4)

I also think it's hard to judge because we haven't exactly played the cream of the crop in the league this year to date.

[timvp]

Wells hit his shots against Barry and Manu and I don't think Bowen played 1 second against Mo Pete. Bowen didn't play in the fourth quarter of that game ... when Peterson was in.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Disclaimer: I'm not taking Ghost's side one way or another. I think Bowen has done a good job in all but about 5-6 games this year on the defensive end (about as well as can be expected in this league).

My beef with Bowen is his continued efforts to try and develop an all-around game at the expense of taking shots from our legit scorers, and that we run more plays for him offensively (via pick and roll mainly) each game than we do for Rasho or Barry.

[timvp]

The Spurs have never called a play for Bowen to run a pick and roll. It's happened a few times with the shot clock running down, but never planned.

In his history with the Spurs, Pop maybe has drawn up five plays for him.

Maybe.

[Jimcs50]

The Spurs did not choke, they hit almost every FT. Tmac just went nuts, is all....nobody could have stopped him without a gun.

[smeagol]

I know that's not the answer to everything, but I play to win games.

I'd rather manipulate the rules that look like a bunch of f'n suckas.

Again.


Foul for krissakes.

Did Derek Fisher teach us nothing?
Again you bring up the Fisher shot.

97% of the people that post here, plus 100% of the media said it would have been a bad idea to foul fisher given the situation and the slim chance he had of hitting that shot versus shooting two FTs. Get over it already!

Nevertheless, I agree with you on the Rockets game. It was pretty obvious that TMac was going hot from beyond the arc. I would've asked every Spur to foul the bastard as soon as he a touches the ball. Furthermore, leave every Rocket open (they weren't hitting shit) and swarm on TMac.

It has already been said but its woth while repeating. We were hitting our FTs!

If you foul TMac, and make the last 30 sec a FT contest, there is no way the Rockets win (it a question of of simple math; we hit two, they hit two, we win by six pts).

[Jimcs50]

Smeagol, you are full of it. Not 97%, more like 99.999999999999%

[ALVAREZ6]

Why did Brown have to screw up so bad on that last inbound,

why did Duncan pussy foul Mcgrady..foul him harder so he doesnt make it( or he could have just rejected that shit)

why couldnt the spurs have just controlled mcgrady and get a hand in his face.

the spurs screwed up in so many ways that it was almost impossible losing the game,
but they did.

This game shouldn't have been that close to begin with. it was the reakin rockets...

[ALVAREZ6]

Smeagol, you are full of it. Not 97%, more like 99.999999999999%


what a difference.

[Gummi]

First of all, Fisher's shot was UNBELIEVABLE. No player in the history of the NBA would've made that shot without luck. But it was a bad idea for Horry to double team Kobe at mid court and not put more presure on the inbounder. But that's done.

Again we witnessed an UNBELIEVABLE performance against the Rockets. What McGrady did was one of the best performance in the history of the NBA. 13 points in 35 secs. That's UNBELIEVABLE.

Why should we foul McGrady and stop the clock? McGrady shoots free throw pretty well, around 75% for his career. I'm sure no one thought that 13 points in 35 secs was possible.

We can't put our players down by saying we choked the game away and forget that McGrady put on a fantasic performance. Sure our players made some mistakes, Duncan's fouling, Duncan not stepping out and contest McGrady's 3, and finally the main blow when Devin started to dribble instead of holding in to that ball.

[GrandeDavid]

^Amen! Damn good point. Hindsight is 20/20 and most fans are aspiring NBA coaches, talent scouts and armchair quarterbacks, anyway. I think that credit needs to go to McGrady and people need to realize that freakish things happen. Now, if LeBron does something similar tonight, then I'll start to really get suspicious of the team's chemistry, drive and conditioning late in games!

[Jimcs50]

Why did Brown have to screw up so bad on that last inbound,

why did Duncan pussy foul Mcgrady..foul him harder so he doesnt make it( or he could have just rejected that shit)

why couldnt the spurs have just controlled mcgrady and get a hand in his face.

the spurs screwed up in so many ways that it was almost impossible losing the game,
but they did.

This game shouldn't have been that close to begin with. it was the reakin rockets...



Enough already!!!

Fuck, it is over...stop your whining for God's sake. :rolleyes

[pjjrfan]

True dat.

But tell me a part of you didn't feel like you were watching a train wreck after McGrady's first 3 down the stretch.

I kept waiting for the other foot to drop.

And where was your stopper Bowen?

I can't remember the last time he held a good shooter in check.

I felt like I was watching a train wreck when Tony threw away the ball to Padgett, for an easy lay-up, which after the made basket by Houston, cut a 10 pt lead to an 6 pt lead with 47 secs. left. That play was big, it changed the whole picture, and made possible all the other miraculous things that happend to lead to a Rocket's win.

But until they go into a series as the no. 1 seed and lose to a no. 8 seed, then I'll think of them as chokers, but not after a regular season game.

[Ghost Writer]

Thanks, Aggie.

So now we know that Bowen never holds his man to under his season average.

Nice chat, timvp.

[Duff McCartney]

I know that's not the answer to everything, but I play to win games.

You play for the Spurs?

[FromWayDowntown]

25, 26, 27, 28 and 29 are between 25-35 PPG.

Bowen's +/- scoring differential is lower that most every other starter at his position.

Well, for what it's worth, Bowen's +/- figure for this season is +193, which is 4th on the Spurs behind Duncan (+266), Ginobili (+226), and Parker (+197).

. . . . and, by the way, Duncan and Ginobili are now #1 and #2 in the NBA in pure plus/minus terms (that is, plus/minus not reduced to a ratio).

[Spurminator]

Box scores are as useful a tool of player evaluation as his Yahoo Fantasy rating. Why people continue to rely on total points scored as the primary indicator of how well an opponent guarded him baffles me... well, except in the case of certain Drama Queens who need material.