The Demonizing of Illegal Immigrants

[nsrammstein]

The great majority of immigrants who enter the United States lawfully qualify for visas because of family ties: They are lucky enough to be related to a US citizen. For them, there is indeed a line -- the waiting time for a family-based visa can take upward of 10 years. A smaller number of legal immigrants are granted visas because they have advanced degrees or specialized skills and a job is waiting for them.

For most illegal immigrants, a legal option simply doesn't exist. Under current law, a young Mexican or Salvadoran who wants to improve his life by moving to America and working hard at a useful job generally has just two options: (a) Enter illegally, or (b) stay out forever. Several hundred thousand a year choose option (a).

The Pat Buchanans, the Lou Dobbses, the conservative talk-show hosts and their riled listeners the illegal entry is all that matters. They don't ask whether it makes sense to bar industrious and productive go-getters who value America as a land of opportunity and who supply labor for which there is a yawning demand. As far as they're concerned, illegal aliens are "immigration criminals," and the only issue on the agenda is how to keep them out.

"Put up a giant fence," demands radio talkmaster Glenn Beck. "You stop the people who are coming here because they're criminals or they want to do us harm."

The demonizing of illegal aliens keeps us from having a rational discussion about US immigration policy.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

it's not just about keeping them out. first of all you don't know who's coming in. this aint a "wetback" situation, this is a non-american situation. people have to start there. these aliens pay no taxes on anything. you're paying for them to be here. i can't remember the city, but a city in pennsylvania has grown more than 50%, but the tax dollars coming remains the same. does this make sense to you. do you feel like paying for someone else's tax because they're illegal? i'm behind on my electric bill. would you kindly get me up to date. i'll be glad to let you know my account info. the last time i checked illegal meant illegal. let the flames commence.

[CubanMustGo]

Politics forum. Use it.

[spursfan09]

Immigrants do the work that Americans themselves wouldn't want to do. Plus they would do the work for cheaper than Americans would want.

[Fillmoe]

Do any of you do drywall?

[nsrammstein]

Do any of you do drywall?

What is that?

[T Park]

theres no demonizing.

Its fact.

They are entering ILLEGALY.

AGAINST THE LAW.


Its not that hard to friggen understand.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yeah until TFat uses mexicans in the company he owns that he built from the ground up.

[TDMVPDPOY]

you know whats wrong about those entering illegally?

when are caught and ppl processing there documents and find that they have a valid situation that grants them a green pass compared to some clown doing it legally waiting for his papers to be process in a couple of years.

money talks

[v2freak]

Immigration presents an opportunity cost. People are constantly complaining that foreigners are taking away Americans' jobs and I believe this to be true.

spursfan09 - You said "Immigrants do the work that Americans themselves wouldn't want to do. Plus they would do the work for cheaper than Americans would want." Are you telling me that in this gigantic country with a hefty population, you can't find people that will want to do those jobs? I know quite a few people who would do what white collar workers would consider "degrading" because it is a job, it is money and it does pay the bills. Heck, the thread starter picked a good forum to post this in. The NBA is a fine example of this. I'm willing to bet there are more than enough aspiring ball players in the US, but not all of them make it. Is it because they're not as skilled? Perhaps, but it probably also has something to do with marketing like the kind Yi got. (and yes, I understand a lot of this has to do with the NBA's policies and how they value money more than anything else).

Like you said, a person may come here and make money the "hard-working, honest way." And then he'll probably send that money overseas to fetch the rest of his family, because his ties with his home country never really die. There's nothing wrong with remembering your roots, but I think you've perhaps intentionally left this out of your argument.

Also consider that the US is cracking down at this point because it does not have the funds to have a large portion of the populace not pay taxes. How can the US be the land of opportunity and also be hated by quite a few other countries at the same time? With the war in Iraq and a debt in the trillions, it's safe to say that a person, government or country cannot help others until it helps itself.

[to21]

Immigration presents an opportunity cost. People are constantly complaining that foreigners are taking away Americans' jobs and I believe this to be true.

spursfan09 - You said "Immigrants do the work that Americans themselves wouldn't want to do. Plus they would do the work for cheaper than Americans would want." Are you telling me that in this gigantic country with a hefty population, you can't find people that will want to do those jobs? I know quite a few people who would do what white collar workers would consider "degrading" because it is a job, it is money and it does pay the bills. Heck, the thread starter picked a good forum to post this in. The NBA is a fine example of this. I'm willing to bet there are more than enough aspiring ball players in the US, but not all of them make it. Is it because they're not as skilled? Perhaps, but it probably also has something to do with marketing like the kind Yi got. (and yes, I understand a lot of this has to do with the NBA's policies and how they value money more than anything else).

Like you said, a person may come here and make money the "hard-working, honest way." And then he'll probably send that money overseas to fetch the rest of his family, because his ties with his home country never really die. There's nothing wrong with remembering your roots, but I think you've perhaps intentionally left this out of your argument.

Also consider that the US is cracking down at this point because it does not have the funds to have a large portion of the populace not pay taxes. How can the US be the land of opportunity and also be hated by quite a few other countries at the same time? With the war in Iraq and a debt in the trillions, it's safe to say that a person, government or country cannot help others until it helps itself.

I agree with this statement.

It's more like Eastern Indians are taking Dell jobs from Americans!

[maxpower]

these aliens pay no taxes on anything. .

Last I checked, sales taxes were a tax. If you want something to look into, check the stats on how much money is put into IRS coffers that will never be claimed.

Illegal is illegal is the what the article is trying to break down.
Saying it over and over does not address the underlying meaning of the article.

[johnsmith]

Politics forum. Use it.


Your mouse. Don't click it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

They are lucky enough to be related to a US citizen. For them, there is indeed a line -- the waiting time for a family-based visa can take upward of 10 years. A smaller number of legal immigrants are granted visas because they have advanced degrees or specialized skills and a job is waiting for them.

My mother waited ten years to come over. She didn't have any family ties here, nor advanced degrees. She did let due process run its course. Your statement is simply ignorant.



For most illegal immigrants, a legal option simply doesn't exist. Under current law, a young Mexican or Salvadoran who wants to improve his life by moving to America and working hard at a useful job generally has just two options: (a) Enter illegally, or (b) stay out forever. Several hundred thousand a year choose option (a).

This is such a lie too. The process works if you let it. The problem is there is no motivation to wait a couple of years to emigrate legally when you can just hike across the border and be working a job in two weeks time.

It's funny how you leave out the problems of illegals using stolen social security numbers and identities so they can get a job, or of them not paying income taxes and sending their money back to family still in Mexico, or the problem of the significant health care burden they place on everyone here in America that are picking up the tab for them in the way of bloated premiums and deductions.

I know a girl who had her identity and social security number stolen and it was being used by an illegal. She couldn't get approved for a mortgage for a home, and after some digging the whole illegal using the SSN thing was figured out. They actually tracked it back to the person using it, and the extent of their response was 'sorry about that.' No one would prosecute because it'd tick off LULAC and the ACLU (persecution of an illegal - the horror!), and my friend went through hell for over two years to get it straightened out.

But go ahead and keep polishing that turd about illegals that you are trying to do in the first post, the hell with everyone here legally and picking up the tab and having their lives and credit ruined just for the little ol' illegals :rolleyes

[peewee's lovechild]

It's illegal only if you are Mexican.

If you are Canadian, then you're okay.
If you are Cuban, you get political amnesty.

It's fucking bullshit.

[peewee's lovechild]

it's not just about keeping them out. first of all you don't know who's coming in. this aint a "wetback" situation, this is a non-american situation. people have to start there. these aliens pay no taxes on anything. you're paying for them to be here. i can't remember the city, but a city in pennsylvania has grown more than 50%, but the tax dollars coming remains the same. does this make sense to you. do you feel like paying for someone else's tax because they're illegal? i'm behind on my electric bill. would you kindly get me up to date. i'll be glad to let you know my account info. the last time i checked illegal meant illegal. let the flames commence.


So, you're pissed at illegals because you're behind on your electric bill??
That's fucking retarded.

What dumb ass point were you trying to make there?

[peewee's lovechild]

Immigration presents an opportunity cost. People are constantly complaining that foreigners are taking away Americans' jobs and I believe this to be true.

spursfan09 - You said "Immigrants do the work that Americans themselves wouldn't want to do. Plus they would do the work for cheaper than Americans would want." Are you telling me that in this gigantic country with a hefty population, you can't find people that will want to do those jobs? I know quite a few people who would do what white collar workers would consider "degrading" because it is a job, it is money and it does pay the bills. Heck, the thread starter picked a good forum to post this in. The NBA is a fine example of this. I'm willing to bet there are more than enough aspiring ball players in the US, but not all of them make it. Is it because they're not as skilled? Perhaps, but it probably also has something to do with marketing like the kind Yi got. (and yes, I understand a lot of this has to do with the NBA's policies and how they value money more than anything else).

Like you said, a person may come here and make money the "hard-working, honest way." And then he'll probably send that money overseas to fetch the rest of his family, because his ties with his home country never really die. There's nothing wrong with remembering your roots, but I think you've perhaps intentionally left this out of your argument.

Also consider that the US is cracking down at this point because it does not have the funds to have a large portion of the populace not pay taxes. How can the US be the land of opportunity and also be hated by quite a few other countries at the same time? With the war in Iraq and a debt in the trillions, it's safe to say that a person, government or country cannot help others until it helps itself.

Interesting point.

But consider this:

Unemployment rates are at their highest in the big cities. The inner cities are chock-full of people that are unemployed. If it's true that regular Americans are willing to work the type of jobs that illegal immigrants are doing, why aren't these people trying to take these jobs?

The truth is that illegals are working jobs that Americans just don't want to work. Take any unemployed American and ask them if they want to work cutting bunches of grapes, picking tomatoes, picking up garbage, etc.

They would tell you to fuck off.
You know it, I know it, everybody knows that is true.

Maybe what we really need to change is the welfare system. Then maybe, just maybe, Americans will really feel the need to work some of these jobs.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's illegal only if you are Mexican.

If you are Canadian, then you're okay.
If you are Cuban, you get political amnesty.

It's fucking bullshit.

Canadians don't feel the need to come here illegally, they use the system in place.

Cuba is a different situation that you can't compare due to the political situation there (though we do send those caught in the ocean back, much like any illegals caught attempting to cross the Rio Grande or any of our southern borders).

I agree with the spirit of your idea though, it should be the same treatment for everyone across the board.

I also agree with the welfare comment. You've got women who pop out 6-8 kids so they can stay on welfare and get benes. They don't want to work, so go out and get knocked up as soon as they have one kid so they can continue to live on the government dime. Lame.

[dougp]

I agree with a few others - the underlying issue of American's "not wanting the jobs illegal's will work" is because Uncle Sam will pay them to be lazy.

Also - illegals aren't just Mexican's - they're all kind of nationalities.

[MoSpur]

Anyone who says that Americans do want the jobs most illegals have is kidding themselves. A lot of Americans are fine living off of Government checks. I think that's one of America's biggest problems. Too many lazy people. The Government makes it too easy for Americans. Its what is bad about this country and what's good about it.

If it were possible for the Government to kick out all illegal immigrants from the U.S, this country would be in deep trouble. We all know it, but some hate to admit it.

[spursfan09]

Interesting point.

But consider this:

Unemployment rates are at their highest in the big cities. The inner cities are chock-full of people that are unemployed. If it's true that regular Americans are willing to work the type of jobs that illegal immigrants are doing, why aren't these people trying to take these jobs?

The truth is that illegals are working jobs that Americans just don't want to work. Take any unemployed American and ask them if they want to work cutting bunches of grapes, picking tomatoes, picking up garbage, etc.

They would tell you to fuck off.
You know it, I know it, everybody knows that is true.

Maybe what we really need to change is the welfare system. Then maybe, just maybe, Americans will really feel the need to work some of these jobs.


I totally agree. Why would Americans want to work, when they can just work the system. I know people who get 700 dollars in food stamps pay 8 bucks a month for rent, and they do not even have jobs. Thats where your tax money is going.

And I know its been said before but it makes a good point. When we build that "wall" between the US and Mexican border who do ya think is gonna build it?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

So, you're pissed at illegals because you're behind on your electric bill??
That's fucking retarded.

What dumb ass point were you trying to make there?are you that dense? I don't want anybody to help me with my debt. I'm just using that as an example of my point. I'm just saying tax paying people--and i'm not talking about sales tax. come on know. even a 5 year old legal or illegal pays sales tax--pay for civil services, schools, etc. and illegals reap the benefits of 1040EZ taxpayers money. that's my "dumb ass" point

[j-6]

And I know its been said before but it makes a good point. When we build that "wall" between the US and Mexican border who do ya think is gonna build it?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8y13DzxfrjY

[ObiwanGinobili]

I sure as hell ain't picking fruit/veggies in the RGV heat 12 hrs a day for jack diddly squat. Never mind the incredibly low pay (and yet HEB still wants like $6 for a watermelon I can get 2/$5 on the side of the road) but bending over all day hauling a bushel or a bag in 90+ degree weather?

ehm. no.
fuck I think homeless people would decline that as well.

[Medvedenko]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart



Oops! You're racist.

I was listening to Alan Colmes' radio show the other night because it's the only thing on between Phil Hendrie and Tom Leykis. Colmes was out for the evening, so a guest host was conducting an interview with the lawyer filing a class action law suit against WalMart--the world's largest retailer--alleging that WalMart cheated thousands of immigrant janitors out of wages. The host argued that the janitors didn't deserve to get paid the same wage as Americans because they were illegal immigrants and shouldn't have been in America in the first place.

My bullshit detector went off, so I called into the show to slam him in the face with the sledge hammer of fallacy. The conversation went something like this:


Host "Hello, you're on the air."
Me "Yes, I'm calling to side with the lawyer."
Host "Why?"
Me "Because saying that an illegal immigrant doesn't deserve to be paid the same wages as an American because he doesn't belong here in the first place is like saying that a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place."
Host (pause)
"Yeah... that's a good point."


He then hung up on me and proceeded to repeat his argument verbatim, even though I handed him a plate full of his ass with all the trimmings, only this time he added something to the effect of "well these immigrants are coming to America and taking jobs away from Americans." What?

News flash: immigrants aren't taking anything from Americans. Companies like WalMart are giving jobs to them illegally. If WalMart paid a company to hire immigrants to do the job over Americans then there's probably a good reason for it. I'm sick and tired of lazy gluttonous Americans bitching about immigrants "taking" our jobs. It's not like they can literally come to America, ambush us in the parking lot and take our jobs.



If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's probably because he or she was willing to work harder for less money. Don't want to pay them full wages? Then don't hire them. If they do equal work, then they deserve equal pay. It's just that simple, and I'm not going to sit back like every other racist piece of shit bitching about having to work harder because there's a little competition for my job, immigrant or otherwise. I know I can do my job better than anyone, and if an immigrant thinks he can do a better job than I can, I welcome him to try.

What kind of chicken shit pussy is afraid of competition? Can't get a job because you lost out to an immigrant? Well TOUGH SHIT. Nobody wants to pay you for your half-assed work if someone else can do it better. That's what America is all about. Our president may be a moron, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let any more jackasses sully the reputation of hard working Americans who are willing to work just as hard as anyone else with or without competition. If you can't cut it, then the people with money will pay it to someone else who can. Maybe if all you people bitching weren't such lazy, pathetic, blood sucking leeches, you'd get off of your dead ass and work HARDER to do a better job. Get some balls people. If you're too chicken shit and you can't cut it, then maybe it's you who doesn't deserve to live in America. Not the immigrants.

Interesting view point....

[Phenomanul]

Americans who work the system are more of a tax burden than those who actually contribute to the economy, illegal or not... Until that travesty is addressed (or unless a shift of emphasis is made towards these frauds - actual criminals) targeting 'illegal' immigration as our biggest social burden will always come off as a cop out.

[CosmicCowboy]

With the new era of political correctness it is obviously not cool to use the term "wetback" now.

Soooo...whats your favorite replacement term? We have started calling them foreign exchange students.

[Phenomanul]

....

[SpursWoman]

I agree with this statement.

It's more like Eastern Indians are taking Dell jobs from Americans!


Dell's Malaysia plant got a lot of jobs that used to be in New Braunfels. :spin

[Melmart1]

Speaking of outsourcing, why is nobody nearly as outraged about this?

If opponents of illegals are made about the economic burden of illegals, I wonder if they realize our economy is greatly affected by consumer spending. It's awfully hard to stimulate the economy with spending when you don't have a job, or when your wages and/or benefits are slashed because Sanjaya is willing to do it for a fraction of the cost in India.

But hey, all those ex-Dell employees in New Braunfels, someone tell them that there will soon be lots of jobs picking grapefruits and oranges in the valley, just as soon as we run out the illegals taking those jobs from them. Goodbye, unemployment line! Hello working stiff!

Where is the outrage there? Or is this OK because you don't actually have to see Sanjaya everyday in his call center cubicle, unlike Pedro and Juanito, who you have to see selling oranges everyday? Just because they don't set foot on our shores doesn't mean that they don't have the same impact. Where is the outrage?

[CosmicCowboy]

It's a world economy. Sucks, but thats the way it is. Y'all just better hope that the politicians in Washington quit rattling their mouths at China over their currency valuations. If China starts dumping dollars our economy will go to hell in a hurry. If you think it's bad now, just wait.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

With the new era of political correctness it is obviously not cool to use the term "wetback" now.

Soooo...whats your favorite replacement term? We have started calling them foreign exchange students.well i'm a "wetback". beaner. greaser whatever you wanna call it. being PC is old already. people need to grow up, and a spine, and just deal with it. I'm an equal opportunity offender.

[peewee's lovechild]

are you that dense? I don't want anybody to help me with my debt. I'm just using that as an example of my point. I'm just saying tax paying people--and i'm not talking about sales tax. come on know. even a 5 year old legal or illegal pays sales tax--pay for civil services, schools, etc. and illegals reap the benefits of 1040EZ taxpayers money. that's my "dumb ass" point

You're right, it was a "dumb ass" point.

[spursfan09]

It's only a matter of time before Hispanics are the majority in this country.

[T Park]

If you think it's bad now, just wait

Having unemployment at or under 4% sure does suck yeah.

The economy is just shit.

[SpursWoman]

It's only a matter of time before Hispanics are the majority in this country.


I've still got a few good baby-making years left...so don't count us crackers out yet. :lol

[peewee's lovechild]

I've still got a few good baby-making years left...so don't count us crackers out yet. :lol

But, if I were to get to you . . . it would be a beige revolution!!!

[SpursWoman]

:lol

[Holt's Cat]

Blaming immigrants is a copout. It's not like you see them picked up off the street to do a day's worth of reports in a nice cushy office in a city's CBD. They do shit jobs for shit pay without virtually all of the protections Americans take for granted.

Americans are some dumb motherfuckers. They blame people who couldn't ever take their jobs about their pay yet don't realize those same people are helping to keep their cost of living down. Man, I could just see some American-born 20 something having to dig a ditch on a nice cool crisp August afternoon in South Texas without bitching about it.

Anyways, all of you are the sons and daugthers of immigrants. Act like it.

[Holt's Cat]

It's only a matter of time before Hispanics are the majority in this country.

Good. Then we'll make fun of your asses.

[spursfan09]

Good. Then we'll make fun of your asses.

????

[ObiwanGinobili]

clue #4 - holtscat alter ego is hispanic.

[SRJ]

Demonizing lawbreakers for lawbreaking. Interesting.

Clearly, many people don't think it's a good idea to have secure borders. Suit yourselves. I just don't want to hear you bitch when someone sneaks across and wipes out some of your family, along with thousands of others, with a dirty bomb.

[peewee's lovechild]

Demonizing lawbreakers for lawbreaking. Interesting.

Clearly, many people don't think it's a good idea to have secure borders. Suit yourselves. I just don't want to hear you bitch when someone sneaks across and wipes out some of your family, along with thousands of others, with a dirty bomb.

Yea, cuz Mexicans can afford it and they really care about American politics.

Solid, solid point there.

[SRJ]

HOW TO DECIPHER A TOTALLY NONSENSICAL POST
by SRJ

Why waste time? Let's go to the video tape:

Here was my post:


Demonizing lawbreakers for lawbreaking. Interesting.

Clearly, many people don't think it's a good idea to have secure borders. Suit yourselves. I just don't want to hear you bitch when someone sneaks across and wipes out some of your family, along with thousands of others, with a dirty bomb.

Here was the response:


Yea, cuz Mexicans can afford it and they really care about American politics.

Solid, solid point there.

I begin by asking the question: Afford what? What in my post referred to Mexicans affording anything?

The phrase following the conjunction was at least comprehensible, if still ludicrous:


they really care about American politics.

Well, I don't give a shit that they don't give a shit about what we do. The point is, we need to do a better job securing all of our points of entry: The Mexican border. The Canadian border. Our airports. Our seaports. And we need to punish those who hire illegals, simple as that.

Everyone who wants in should be allowed in as long as they go through the process. Why is this a problem?

Please respond to this post only if you have at least a vague semblance of intelligence. Thanks.

[spursfan09]

clue #4 - holtscat alter ego is hispanic.

Ya I figured. I guess he doesn't realize I'm hispanic though?

[AlamoSpursFan]

Please respond to this post only if you have at least a vague semblance of intelligence. Thanks.

You just disqualified about 98% of the posters in here. Including me.

:lmao

[SpursWoman]

clue #4 - holtscat alter ego is hispanic.

No, it's not.

[Phil Hellmuth]

Demonizing lawbreakers for lawbreaking. Interesting.

Clearly, many people don't think it's a good idea to have secure borders. Suit yourselves. I just don't want to hear you bitch when someone sneaks across and wipes out some of your family, along with thousands of others, with a dirty bomb.

slippery slope way of thinking.

it is almost impossible to make the border clearly uncrossable. Penn and Teller did an episode on this and showed how easy it was to climb over the expected new wall being built out there.

Mexican border crossing for terrorism is a lose-lose situation for smugglers. They don' want to do business with terrrorists, because it is bad to have the Govt. after your ass when something does happen and your business goes to ZERO.

[Phenomanul]

Demonizing lawbreakers for lawbreaking. Interesting.

Clearly, many people don't think it's a good idea to have secure borders. Suit yourselves. I just don't want to hear you bitch when someone sneaks across and wipes out some of your family, along with thousands of others, with a dirty bomb.

Typical myopic paranoia...

The 9/11 terrorists did not come in through Mexico... Nor did the '93 Terrorist attackers, or the Oklahoma City Bomber, or the Washington D.C. Snipers, or the '96 Atlanta Bomber...

For that matter gangs and actual criminals, will be a threat no matter where you go... to assume or even assert that locking out the border will fix this problem is rather naive.

[SRJ]

Typical myopic paranoia...

The 9/11 terrorists did not come in through Mexico... Nor did the '93 Terrorist attackers, or the Oklahoma City Bomber, or the Washington D.C. Snipers, or the '96 Atlanta Bomber...

For that matter gangs and actual criminals, will be a threat no matter where you go... to assume or even assert that locking out the border will fix this problem is rather naive.

So millions of people sneak across every year, but because it hasn't happened yet, it could never happen. Who's naive?

Why not just keep your house unlocked when you go to bed at night?

[Phil Hellmuth]

Why not just keep your house unlocked when you go to bed at night?


you keep sliding on the slippery slope
:dramaquee

[SRJ]

Damn, that bothers me a lot.

[Phil Hellmuth]

Damn, that bothers me a lot.

it is what it is man, get your logic right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[SRJ]

Oh no! Now I've been linked! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Speaking of outsourcing, why is nobody nearly as outraged about this?

If opponents of illegals are made about the economic burden of illegals, I wonder if they realize our economy is greatly affected by consumer spending. It's awfully hard to stimulate the economy with spending when you don't have a job, or when your wages and/or benefits are slashed because Sanjaya is willing to do it for a fraction of the cost in India.

But hey, all those ex-Dell employees in New Braunfels, someone tell them that there will soon be lots of jobs picking grapefruits and oranges in the valley, just as soon as we run out the illegals taking those jobs from them. Goodbye, unemployment line! Hello working stiff!

Where is the outrage there? Or is this OK because you don't actually have to see Sanjaya everyday in his call center cubicle, unlike Pedro and Juanito, who you have to see selling oranges everyday? Just because they don't set foot on our shores doesn't mean that they don't have the same impact. Where is the outrage?

While crappy, global outsourcing of production lines is not and should never be used to compare with the topic of illegal aliens being in the country illegally.

[Phenomanul]

So millions of people sneak across every year, but because it hasn't happened yet, it could never happen. Who's naive?

Why not just keep your house unlocked when you go to bed at night?

Ummmm.... you missed the point.

Read the thread title... read my response and then assess your stance again.

All immigrants aren't criminals... one "all-encompassing" law cannot automatically label one as a criminal simply because these immigrants are seeking a better way of life. What type of screwed up thinking would arbitrarily pool immigrants with murderers, thiefs, rapists, and drug dealers?
And yes, I fully understand that some of them do have a criminal background - in their case, I would say that they've lost their chance to seek a future in the U.S.A.... in their case, we do have legitimate grounds to deny them entry.

What ever happened to to the belief that people have a right to "The Pursuit of Happiness"... or the concept that "All men are created equal"??? From a semantical point of view, it refers to men as humans and not as Citizens of the U.S.A.

In my opinion our policies on this issue have historically been driven by selfishness - exaggerated tax burden concerns, fear of other cultures, fear that others would take our entitlements, or that which we felt belonged to us. This latest pretense that immigration is chiefly a security issue falls on deaf ears in light of those sentiments and will largely be considered a cop out in my view. Not to mention that the general approach to immigration is all wrong. Treat the root cause of problems not the symptoms. Furthermore, we need to desperately restructure our welfare programs to target those in true need and to alienate those who 'work the system'. I'm apalled that the general U.S. populace would rather demonize a hardworking immigrant instead of the state produced, viced, lazy, people that are continually syphoning the tax dollars out of our social programs... The fact that they 'reap' their checks without doing anything to merit the stipend while the immigrant toils in hard labor is the crux of the comparison. But hey... they are U.S. born Citizens of this Grand Nation... They deserve it!!!

Sure, we can try and control the flux of migrants into the country due to legitimate social, financial and infrastructural concerns but the legal proecesses that exist today are cumbersome, expensive, and many times end as unsuccessful bids. AHF's example is the exception not the rule. And did he mention that the person waited 10 years... 10 years people!!! Who can live off of misery for that long? I'm pretty sure that if I were in their shoes that I wouldn't wait around that long for my circumstance to change.... I couldn't envision having to wait longer than two years for something like this...

People here just take it for granted that they can choose to visit most countries in the world by simply paying for a VISA and obtaining a passport. Coming into this country however is way more difficult. My cousins can't even visit me without having to shell out thousands of dollars for their documents (even a simple tourist VISA) and the worse part is that 95% of their attempts have ended in nothing but a loss of money.

[SRJ]

Hey, if the citizenship process needs streamlining, then let's do it.


All immigrants aren't criminals... one "all-encompassing" law cannot automatically label one as a criminal simply because these immigrants are seeking a better way of life. What type of screwed up thinking would arbitrarily pool immigrants with murderers, thiefs, rapists, and drug dealers?

Immigrants are not in that pool...but what do you have when people are sneaking across the border under cover of darkness? What kind of screwed-up thinking says, "No one sneaking across is coming to do harm?"

Our ports and borders are the doors and windows to our house. In my house, I have to assume that anyone sneaking in at night while I'm asleep is coming for my possessions or me. Maybe they're not, but if I'm wrong it's gonna cost me big.

[nsrammstein]

I hate people who say that we would do just fine without the labor if Illegal immigrants, those people that say that probably only have to worry about having an asshole for a boss or not having coffe ready in the office when they get to work. Illegals have to worry about falling off a roof, getting a nail hammered into their hand or a heat stroke from working in the field under 100 degree weather, the people that are working on the roof of the company I work for are probably illegals but do we complain? no, why? because we don't want to pay higher prices, hell none of them speak english but they do damn good job.

Last time I checked I didn't want my kids to be competing for a job in the field picking frutis or in roofs.

[SRJ]

Illegals wouldn't have to worry about that if people wouldn't hire them, if our government would penalize companies for hiring them, if our government would do a better job securing the borders.

If that would happen (I know, it's a pipe dream asking people to obey the law), the only people who would have to worry about that stuff would be Americans.

[Holt's Cat]

Americans should realize how good they have it if someone is willing to travel hundreds or thousands of miles, then find a way to make it across the border, often going through deserts on foot, then live on the fringes of society without much in the way of legal protections just for the ability to work outside in a Texas summer and make jack shit. Or work in a slaughterhouse or whatever less than pleasant occupation that most Americans wouldn't ever dream of trying out. It's interesting how throughout American history immigrants have been reviled and then how quickly yesterday's immigrants or their progeny begin to revile today's immigrants.

[nsrammstein]

Illegals wouldn't have to worry about that if people wouldn't hire them, if our government would penalize companies for hiring them, if our government would do a better job securing the borders.

If that would happen (I know, it's a pipe dream asking people to obey the law), the only people who would have to worry about that stuff would be Americans.

You think they would risk it all just to come to the US to take american jobs? You think they would risk getting severly injured or dying in the desert to just come here to take jobs away from americans and rape women, and murder children? I'm not saying 100% are not rapist or murderers but atleast 97% of them come here to work hard and support their family..

[Holt's Cat]

Illegals wouldn't have to worry about that if people wouldn't hire them, if our government would penalize companies for hiring them, if our government would do a better job securing the borders.

If that would happen (I know, it's a pipe dream asking people to obey the law), the only people who would have to worry about that stuff would be Americans.

Then our cost of living goes up to satisfy someone's fetish.

[Phenomanul]

Illegals wouldn't have to worry about that if people wouldn't hire them, if our government would penalize companies for hiring them, if our government would do a better job securing the borders.

If that would happen (I know, it's a pipe dream asking people to obey the law), the only people who would have to worry about that stuff would be Americans.


That right there illustrates the myopic selfishness of which I speak of.....

One earns what they work for... that shouldn't be hard to understand.

[SRJ]

It's interesting how throughout American history immigrants have been reviled and then how quickly yesterday's immigrants or their progeny begin to revile today's immigrants.

It's interesting how people who are here illegally are called immigrants when actual immigrants go through the process of citizenship.

[nsrammstein]

It's interesting how people who are here illegally are called immigrants when actual immigrants go through the process of citizenship.

Illegal Immigrant, there I hope that makes your day.

[SRJ]

It helps, but doesn't go far enough.

[nsrammstein]

It helps, but doesn't go far enough.


What would be ''far enough'' for you?

[Holt's Cat]

Because before immigrants went through such a bureaucratic maze.

[SRJ]

What would go far enough?

A more secure border. Obviously, you can't cover every square inch of our border with Mexico and the Canadian border, but it's obvious that it's just too porous right now.

Penalties for companies hiring illegal aliens. Without the incentive they provide, you wouldn't have as many people entering illegally.

A streamlined immigration process. It's obvious that there is too much inefficient bureacracy impeding people who are coming here. Make it easier.

If we could take those simple steps, we'd be better off. But it won't work if there's no respect for the idea that people cannot just waltz in here willy-nilly. If you're not willing to follow just a few simple rules, then you shouldn't be here.

Those of us who were born here must follow the rules; why should it be any different for people who want to join us?

[v2freak]

I want some people to look at it from a different point of view - the eyes of, say, a teenager.

First I want to make clear that it is not just menial labor that illegal immigrants are working at. Many may be doing what is considered a step up from that such as working at a fast food joint or working a telemarketing job. Those jobs along with mowing lawns and painting houses are well among the few things that teenagers can do. Ever heard of a Catch 22? That's the predicament presented when teenagers don't have a sufficient amount of opportunities. That's cutting down on human capital and investment.

As long as we're generalizing like mad, I know quite a few teenagers who are extremely hard working. They balance a busy social life, raging hormones and a bunch of school work, and they get hassled by their parents to find a job.

Or wait, do hard working American teenagers not count because they are not immigrants? Only illegal immigrants who are hard working and seek a better life should count for something?

[Phenomanul]

What would go far enough?

A more secure border. Obviously, you can't cover every square inch of our border with Mexico and the Canadian border, but it's obvious that it's just too porous right now.

Penalties for companies hiring illegal aliens. Without the incentive they provide, you wouldn't have as many people entering illegally.

A streamlined immigration process. It's obvious that there is too much inefficient bureacracy impeding people who are coming here. Make it easier.

If we could take those simple steps, we'd be better off. But it won't work if there's no respect for the idea that people cannot just waltz in here willy-nilly. If you're not willing to follow just a few simple rules, then you shouldn't be here.

Those of us who were born here must follow the rules; why should it be any different for people who want to join us?


You just don't get it do you? Border isolationism is not the answer. Yes, we need to penalize employers for hiring undocumented workers. But that could only be attained if and only if the supply can still be met. That is, if there were enough documented workers to fill the work void. Unsurprisingly that shift would likely also increase the cost of living everywhere in the U.S. since 'legal' workers would likely require higher wages.

The point is that none of this can happen until our immigration policies are streamlined to begin with... but you need to understand why this is needed... People can't sit in their countries and starve to death or watch their families suffer while beaurocrats sit here and push paper around for two to three years.... That is why many of them are left without much recourse but do what is needed for them to survive. A streamlined process would also do away with the need for honest workers to have to come in 'illegally' in the first place. At that point, those that tried to get into the U.S. outside of the confines of this facilitated pathway would clearly be up to no good (smugglers, terrorists, drug-traffickers etc...). I mean why would you expose yourself to that danger, if the 'legal' pathway were set up properly?

Clearly these migrant policies would also have to alter the qualification standards of our social programs, so that the floodgates would not drain every penny. That is the system that is in need of dire reform. I would think that new lie detection technology developed at M.I.T. would enable our social administrators to weed out the majority of false claims. But more importantly it would establish that benefits were available only to those who have contributed to the functioning of society. No more entitlements, or free-bees.

Also significant is the fact that any major social reform will need to be coupled with a value deflation of everything in the healthcare system from drugs to medical procedures... the prices are astronomical. Why should a broken arm be a $20,000 hit to our insurance, or an apendectomy $18,000, while the Phizers of the world make billions upon billons of dollars? The healthcare sector is the elephant in the room with regards to tax drainage for those who don't earn enough to cover their own expenses.

Such reforms also need to be coupled with a relaxation of the subsidies levied on 3rd world goods... let true captitalism run its course (What, we don't adhere to supply and demand principles that govern capitalism if it isn't in the best interest of the U.S.? What type of hypocrisy are we spreading?) This would allow those nations to retain their own citizens, so that their emmigration rates were reduced as the need to emigrate was lessened.

When you see the bigger picture you'll find that many things would have to change to bring about a viable system. And as you probably know, the people in power (usually those that are super wealthy) have historically resisted change. When you think about it, that is the hurdle that needs to be overcome.

[v2freak]

Is there a link to a national poll that indicates just how many Americans have a 'that work is below me' type attitude? I agree that a lot of things need to be changed like more incentives for people to find work rather than reap benefits. But there are some serious SERIOUS generalizations being thrown around that Americans are lazy / don't want to get their hands dirty etc.

And as another poster mentioned, yes globalization sucks. Very few people advocate it considering it means that their loved ones will have to leave everything they've ever known.

[SRJ]

You just don't get it do you?

How To Influence People, by a total asshole


Border isolationism is not the answer. Yes, we need to penalize employers for hiring undocumented workers. But that could only be attained if and only if the supply can still be met. That is, if there were enough documented workers to fill the work void. Unsurprisingly that shift would likely also increase the cost of living everywhere in the U.S. since 'legal' workers would likely require higher wages.

I'll keep this point in mind for later on.


The point is that none of this can happen until our immigration policies are streamlined to begin with... but you need to understand why this is needed...

Again with the goddamn condescension. How awesome is it to be as smart as you are? Never mind, don't tell me, it's over my head anyway.


People can't sit in their countries and starve to death or watch their families suffer while beaurocrats sit here and push paper around for two to three years.... That is why many of them are left without much recourse but do what is needed for them to survive. A streamlined process would also do away with the need for honest workers to have to come in 'illegally' in the first place. At that point, those that tried to get into the U.S. outside of the confines of this facilitated pathway would clearly be up to no good (smugglers, terrorists, drug-traffickers etc...). I mean why would you expose yourself to that danger, if the 'legal' pathway were set up properly?

Yeah...gosh, I wish I had argued for a streamlined process myself. Oh, wait...


Clearly these migrant policies would also have to alter the qualification standards of our social programs, so that the floodgates would not drain every penny. That is the system that is in need of dire reform. I would think that new lie detection technology developed at M.I.T. would enable our social administrators to weed out the majority of false claims. But more importantly it would establish that benefits were available only to those who have contributed to the functioning of society. No more entitlements, or free-bees.

Nothing to quibble about there. Welfare cheats have long been a significant problem.


Also significant is the fact that any major social reform will need to be coupled with a value deflation of everything in the healthcare system from drugs to medical procedures... the prices are astronomical. Why should a broken arm be a $20,000 hit to our insurance, or an apendectomy $18,000, while the Phizers of the world make billions upon billons of dollars? The healthcare sector is the elephant in the room with regards to tax drainage for those who don't earn enough to cover their own expenses.

Hey, I don't even have a bullshit internet forum answer on health care.


Such reforms also need to be coupled with a relaxation of the subsidies levied on 3rd world goods... let true captitalism run its course (What, we don't adhere to supply and demand principles that govern capitalism if it isn't in the best interest of the U.S.? What type of hypocrisy are we spreading?) This would allow those nations to retain their own citizens, so that their emmigration rates were reduced as the need to emigrate was lessened.

I agree in principle, but the American interpretation of capitalism is run through with lots of socialistic policies. It's hardly hypocritical of us to practice selective capitalism abroad when that's precisely what we do domestically.


When you see the bigger picture you'll find that many things would have to change to bring about a viable system. And as you probably know, the people in power (usually those that are super wealthy) have historically resisted change. When you think about it, that is the hurdle that needs to be overcome.

Now we come to the devilish Catch-22 in your answer. I will repost this from your first paragraph:


Unsurprisingly that shift would likely also increase the cost of living everywhere in the U.S. since 'legal' workers would likely require higher wages.

You again, this time from your last paragraph:


And as you probably know, the people in power (usually those that are super wealthy) have historically resisted change.

So if reforms would raise our standard of living (and presumably, this is one reason many of us are OK with the status quo), why all of a sudden would the wealthy powerful object to reform? After all, they won't feel it when the cost-of-living goes up, and they will likely reap the windfall of the reforms. Oh sure, the wealthy will have to lay out a little bit more for labor, but they have lawyers and accountants ready to find the loopholes in the new policies.

We like the cheap goods. It's that simple.

By the way, when we discuss the suffering felt by families sneaking into our country, at what point do we hold their governments accountable? Why is it the United States' job to provide opportunities for every downtrodden family?

I'm guessing that Americans who complain about the US being the world's policeman aren't saying word one about being the world's provider. Funny how that works.

[peewee's lovechild]

I begin by asking the question: Afford what? What in my post referred to Mexicans affording anything?



You made a point about dirty bombs.
And, I just made a sarcastic comment about them not affording one.
If you should need a definition to the word "sarcasm", please let me know.






Well, I don't give a shit that they don't give a shit about what we do. The point is, we need to do a better job securing all of our points of entry: The Mexican border. The Canadian border. Our airports. Our seaports. And we need to punish those who hire illegals, simple as that.



Let's stop pretending that this has anything to do with the Canadian border or anything like that. This has to do with Mexico and the border we share with it.

If Mexico was 95% white, we wouldn't even be talking about any of this. If the point you tried to make is that terrorists could come in through Mexico, it would actually be A LOT easier for them to come in through Canada. The border up north is hardly even patrolled.

Where's the wall being built on the Canadian border???

America has always had a phobia towards the darker colored races. That's the issue. Immigration has just given their racial hatred some kind of legitimacy.

[peewee's lovechild]

So millions of people sneak across every year, but because it hasn't happened yet, it could never happen. Who's naive?

Why not just keep your house unlocked when you go to bed at night?

Paranoia will destroy 'ya.

[SRJ]

So you're calling me a racist.

Fuck.

You.

That is a rebuke and a denial.

[peewee's lovechild]

So you're calling me a racist.

Fuck.

You.

That is a rebuke and a denial.

So, I take it that you also want a wall on the Canadian border?

[peewee's lovechild]

Say, how did that concept work in Berlin?

[SRJ]

I don't particularly want a wall on either border; I want adequate security. If that means putting up a wall here or there so be it.

Rep. Solomon Ortiz, a Democrat and ex-Border Patrolman, said in Texas Monthly that you don't need a wall across the entire southern border, but you do need a wall in a few spots. I hope Ortiz isn't a racist for saying so.

[Phenomanul]

How To Influence People, by a total asshole



I'll keep this point in mind for later on.



Again with the goddamn condescension. How awesome is it to be as smart as you are? Never mind, don't tell me, it's over my head anyway.



Yeah...gosh, I wish I had argued for a streamlined process myself. Oh, wait...



Nothing to quibble about there. Welfare cheats have long been a significant problem.



Hey, I don't even have a bullshit internet forum answer on health care.



I agree in principle, but the American interpretation of capitalism is run through with lots of socialistic policies. It's hardly hypocritical of us to practice selective capitalism abroad when that's precisely what we do domestically.



Now we come to the devilish Catch-22 in your answer. I will repost this from your first paragraph:



You again, this time from your last paragraph:



So if reforms would raise our standard of living (and presumably, this is one reason many of us are OK with the status quo), why all of a sudden would the wealthy powerful object to reform? After all, they won't feel it when the cost-of-living goes up, and they will likely reap the windfall of the reforms. Oh sure, the wealthy will have to lay out a little bit more for labor, but they have lawyers and accountants ready to find the loopholes in the new policies.

We like the cheap goods. It's that simple.

By the way, when we discuss the suffering felt by families sneaking into our country, at what point do we hold their governments accountable? Why is it the United States' job to provide opportunities for every downtrodden family?

I'm guessing that Americans who complain about the US being the world's policeman aren't saying word one about being the world's provider. Funny how that works.

I never claimed to have it all figured out; my opinion is just that.... my opinion. Besides, the 'immigration problem' and its dynamics are way bigger than you or anybody else in this forum can even comprehend, let alone solve. Why else do you think that Congress can't settle on anything and at least make one progressive move on the issue?

Back to the point of the thread however (the point you keep missing... and no, me pointing this out is not condescending; it's more of a core disagreement with the concept that someone can be labeled a criminal simply for choosing to seek a better a future for themselves; at great sacrifice no less).... Anyways, go ahead and label all hardworking undocumented immigrants as criminals... it's your perogative to do as you please... continue to 'demonize' them...


But just so you know... that condescending attitude towards them will never solve anything. It will never produce fruitful bilateral talks.

It is that very same prevailing sentiment amongst America's isolationists that has shut many doors on route to viable solutions for the problem. That attitude is disrespectful to the very existence of immigrants. These people aren't animals you know... they're humans just like you or me... So if you believe I'm the "asshole" for believing otherwise you best check yourself in the mirror.

BTW whenever you get over that little persecution complex of yours we can continue to have a normal discussion... :wakeup

Until then we will just have to agree to disagree... :spin


























































Oh.... did that get you all riled up? My bad. That's why the immigration issue is a hot topic.... :toast

[SRJ]

BTW whenever you get over that little persecution complex of yours we can continue to have a normal discussion...

Characterize my mindset in whatever terms you like; however, I'd like an answer to this question:


By the way, when we discuss the suffering felt by families sneaking into our country, at what point do we hold their governments accountable? Why is it the United States' job to provide opportunities for every downtrodden family?

See, the problem I'm having is that while I answer your questions, you keep reframing the debate. That is the root of the impasse. If you're unwilling to answer questions, what more can I do?

And yeah, I do get a little riled about certain topics, but always remember we'll be standing shoulder to shoulder from November to June.

Cheers!

[boutons_]

Bush Moves To Step Up Immigration Enforcement

By N.C. Aizenman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, August 11, 2007; A01

A month after immigration restructuring failed in Congress, the Bush administration yesterday mapped a broad campaign to tighten border security and to pressure employers to fire illegal immigrant workers.

The 26 measures -- most of which continue or expand on current policies --

include raising fines for knowingly hiring illegal workers,

streamlining current guest-worker programs,

bolstering an electronic system employers can use to verify workers' legal status, and

adding 370 miles of border fencing,

300 miles of vehicle barriers and

1,700 more Border Patrol agents.

"These reforms represent steps my administration can take within the boundaries of existing law," President Bush said in a statement released shortly after Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and Commerce Secretary Carlos M. Gutierrez presented the plan at a news conference. "Although the Congress has not addressed our broken immigration system by passing comprehensive reform legislation, my administration will continue to take every possible step to build upon the progress already made in strengthening our borders, enforcing our worksite laws, keeping our economy well-supplied with vital workers, and helping new Americans learn English."

Republicans offered a mixed reaction to the move -- just as they had to the failed legislation.

"It's a huge political issue, and a huge chunk of the population and a big part of the Republican Party base is demanding something be done," said GOP strategist Ed Rogers. "I hope the point is to establish credibility so maybe the next president has a better opportunity to really fix the problem."

By contrast, many Democrats, immigrant advocates and business representatives expressed skepticism and alarm.

"Sadly, the administration's proposal would make our immigration crisis worse," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.), one of the key negotiators of the compromise immigration bill that failed in the Senate. "[It] will only exacerbate the already serious problems of our immigration system by causing even more confusion about who can be hired, resulting in the unjust firings of legal workers who look foreign and driving more hardworking people into the shadows." The impact on immigrant-dependent industries such as construction and agriculture -- whose workforce is at least two-thirds illegal -- would be "devastating," predicted Craig Regelbrugge, government relations director for the American Nursery & Landscape Association.

"There's no replacement workforce," he said. "This will give people a set of bad choices: Either they terminate their workers, or they take a deep breath and duck and hope the law doesn't catch up with them. Or, for a lot of people, they're just going to make the decision to get out of the business."

Particularly controversial are new guidelines for employers who receive a "no-match" letter from the Social Security Administration informing them that 10 or more of their employees have Social Security numbers that do not correspond with government records.

The administration issues about 140,000 no-match letters a year, covering about 10 million workers. Many are the result of innocent mistakes -- a worker miswrote his Social Security number on a form, for example, or failed to notify the government of her new, married name.

But a no-match often is an indicator that the worker is among the estimated 7.5 million illegal immigrants working in the United States.

Federal prosecutors have occasionally used an employer's disregard of no-match letters as evidence that he or she knowingly hired illegal immigrants -- a violation of federal law. But until now, employers were given few guidelines as to how to respond to the notices and have frequently ignored them.

The new regulations -- which will take effect next month -- offer employers "safe harbor" from prosecution if they require their employee to resolve the no-match discrepancy within 90 days -- for instance, by contacting the appropriate government agency to correct mistaken records. If the worker is unable to do so, the employer must terminate the worker or face possible criminal liability.

The Social Security Administration does not alert immigration authorities when it sends out no-match letters, so the new regulations are unlikely to trigger a sudden wave of prosecutions.

But Randel Johnson of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce said most employers are unlikely to consider such nuances -- particularly in light of the increased civil penalties and recently stepped-up enforcement of immigration law.

Immigration authorities have increased criminal arrests of both employers and employees from 24 in fiscal 1999 to 716 in 2006. And they appear on track to nearly double that number this year.

"Look, employers are going to want to protect themselves, so, de facto nearly all employers are going to follow the new rules," Johnson said. "And that is going to have a serious impact in certain industries."

Kathleen Walker, president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, said she was worried that employers may open themselves to civil rights lawsuits when they fire a legal worker who is unable to resolve his case within 90 days.

"Even if you're a legal worker, good luck trying to get an appointment with the Social Security Administration in time, let alone resolving your case," she said. "And then the employer gets put between the proverbial rock and the hard place."

She and others questioned the effectiveness of an existing computer program to check employment eligibility that the administration will expand and give a new name, E-Verify.

The program -- which matches information for employees with more than 425 million Social Security records and 60 million homeland security records -- now is used voluntarily by 19,000 employers.

Under the plan announced by Chertoff, the government would initiate a rulemaking process to require federal contractors and vendors -- 200,000 companies -- to use it.

Walker said E-Verify does not include a complete array of immigration records and has a substantial error rate.

Others criticized the administration's promise to eliminate delays in obtaining approval for seasonal agricultural and low-skilled non-agricultural workers under two existing guest-worker programs.

"There is not an administrative solution, and tinkering with the regulations is not going to solve the problem," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), co-sponsor with Sen. Larry E. Craig (R-Idaho) of a bill that would overhaul the nation's agricultural jobs sector. "The administration's approach is a Band-Aid that will not stop the looming crisis American agriculture will face this fall. The crisis is that crops will not be harvested."

Staff writers Anne E. Kornblut, Karin Brulliard and Spencer S. Hsu and political researcher Zachary A. Goldfarb contributed to this report.

[nickbroken]

You are fooling yourself if you think not having illegals here doesn't help the cost of living big time, I am a brick/block/stone mason, if there were no illegals it would cost twice as much for a block wall, or stone work, three times as much for any kind of brick work, Americans are too lazy to do the work I do, (I'm Canadian). You just don't see many white workers in my field.

[TDMVPDPOY]

instead of having fences on the border, why not landmines :D:D:D

[nsrammstein]

instead of having fences on the border, why not landmines

How about a landmine in YOUR ass for spewing shit out of YOUR ass?

[xrayzebra]

Ummmm.... you missed the point.

Read the thread title... read my response and then assess your stance again.

All immigrants aren't criminals... one "all-encompassing" law cannot automatically label one as a criminal simply because these immigrants are seeking a better way of life. What type of screwed up thinking would arbitrarily pool immigrants with murderers, thiefs, rapists, and drug dealers?
And yes, I fully understand that some of them do have a criminal background - in their case, I would say that they've lost their chance to seek a future in the U.S.A.... in their case, we do have legitimate grounds to deny them entry.

What ever happened to to the belief that people have a right to "The Pursuit of Happiness"... or the concept that "All men are created equal"??? From a semantical point of view, it refers to men as humans and not as Citizens of the U.S.A.

In my opinion our policies on this issue have historically been driven by selfishness - exaggerated tax burden concerns, fear of other cultures, fear that others would take our entitlements, or that which we felt belonged to us. This latest pretense that immigration is chiefly a security issue falls on deaf ears in light of those sentiments and will largely be considered a cop out in my view. Not to mention that the general approach to immigration is all wrong. Treat the root cause of problems not the symptoms. Furthermore, we need to desperately restructure our welfare programs to target those in true need and to alienate those who 'work the system'. I'm apalled that the general U.S. populace would rather demonize a hardworking immigrant instead of the state produced, viced, lazy, people that are continually syphoning the tax dollars out of our social programs... The fact that they 'reap' their checks without doing anything to merit the stipend while the immigrant toils in hard labor is the crux of the comparison. But hey... they are U.S. born Citizens of this Grand Nation... They deserve it!!!

Sure, we can try and control the flux of migrants into the country due to legitimate social, financial and infrastructural concerns but the legal proecesses that exist today are cumbersome, expensive, and many times end as unsuccessful bids. AHF's example is the exception not the rule. And did he mention that the person waited 10 years... 10 years people!!! Who can live off of misery for that long? I'm pretty sure that if I were in their shoes that I wouldn't wait around that long for my circumstance to change.... I couldn't envision having to wait longer than two years for something like this...

People here just take it for granted that they can choose to visit most countries in the world by simply paying for a VISA and obtaining a passport. Coming into this country however is way more difficult. My cousins can't even visit me without having to shell out thousands of dollars for their documents (even a simple tourist VISA) and the worse part is that 95% of their attempts have ended in nothing but a loss of money.

Stealing someone else identity is not illegal? How would
you like it if they stole yours and screwed up your life?

Those that come into the country illegally break the law
at least twice, once from entering the country illegally
and again when they take someone else's identity.

It is also an insult to those that try to do it right and
come into the country legally. Or is it okay by you
to have someone cut in the line ahead of you?

I don't understand why you relatives have such a hard
time coming here to visit. I know many from out of
country to visit have no trouble at all.

[JoeChalupa]

Perhaps a wall should've been built around Ellis Island.

[xrayzebra]

Perhaps a wall should've been built around Ellis Island.


Why Joe? Those people entering were doing so legally.
And some weren't admitted. Learn your history before
trying to make a mockery of the term immigrants.
Illegal is illegal. There is no such thing as human rights
or rights for those that come illegally. They are law
breakers just like a robber. They also rob, rob other
people of their identity.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

There is no such thing as human rights
or rights for those that come illegally.


http://imatt.us/mt/archives/orly.JPG

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Just because this answer should be fucking hilarious - Which humans do have rights, Xray?

[JoeChalupa]

Why Joe? Those people entering were doing so legally.
And some weren't admitted. Learn your history before
trying to make a mockery of the term immigrants.
Illegal is illegal. There is no such thing as human rights
or rights for those that come illegally. They are law
breakers just like a robber. They also rob, rob other
people of their identity.

I know my history and was just being sarcastic. My point is that this country was built on immigration and yes, those coming over through Ellis Island or any place, did so legally. My grandparents did it.
I agree with the fact that we should welcome immigrants to our country. The proglem is not immigration, its that other "I" word we put in front of it.."ILLEGAL".
And I disagree...I feel everyone has HUMAN RIGHTS, even illegal immigrants. Being illegal does not make you iinhuman. Not all of them rob other people of their identity. Stop making a mockery of those who, while they are illegal, are not robbers in as you see them.

[SRJ]

By the way, when we discuss the suffering felt by families sneaking into our country, at what point do we hold their governments accountable? Why is it the United States' job to provide opportunities for every downtrodden family?

Is ANYONE going to answer this question?

[TDMVPDPOY]

there is no correlation between immagrants and timvps dream.....

[ggoose25]

Is ANYONE going to answer this question?



There is no excuse to allow America to be solely responsible for this problem. So far we have shouldered the entire burden, and it has to stop. There are both positives and negatives to immigration for the US, but tell me one significant way it hurts Mexico.

IMO, hold the Mexican govt responsible and American businesses responsible and this problem will be dramatically lessened.

[ashbeeigh]

There isn't a simple answer to immigration in the United States. For some reason many people believe that the American society cannot survive without these "illegal" people working for us. Before this summer I was always one of these people who believe that no matter what happened, if someone came into the United States without going through legal processes should be thrown out without question. I really don't have anything to say on the recent immigration news, but I would like to share a little story with all of you. You can read it, skip over it, or even call my bullshit, but it has really affected my "Get them all out of here!" opinion."

About two weeks ago a parent came up as my elementary students were coming in to their last day of camp. One of my co-workers asked for me to come up and listen to a conversation she and a parent were having, just to be clear because it was in Spanish. We talked for a little bit and the mom, who has 5th grade twin boys with the biggest attitudes in the world, says, in broken English, "I don't think the boys are going to be here tomorrow." In my rushed actions I shrugged it off because it was the last day. I said, "It's okay, it's the last day." She responded with..."My husband was taken back to Mexico by immigration." I had a shocked look on my face. I would never have thought of it. We went through the day with a heavy heart, just because I knew it was a family. They seem tight knit and loving. I hugged and held on to the boys just to let them know I was there for them. I even asked the more mature one if he was alright with what was going on with his father. He just told me "He's on vacation in mexico."


heir mom came in with their cousins and little sister close to pick them up and their mother came up to talk to me. I embraced her and told her things would get better. Through her tears we talked and she told me their story. It was a story of uncertainty. That's what I never though of before. The United States brings some sort of certainty to these families lives. Whether they're here for a few weeks or for nine years working towards their visas, there is a pay-check and food...if they find a good job. This family of five had rent to pay ($480 a month), school to get ready for, and all those other things I can't think of. The mother was just so unsure of what to come she couldn't keep it together any longer. She was so strong, so powerful, so amazing. I admire her now. Before she was just a mother.

The church secretary came over to talk with us to make sure all over things were taken came of, that the boys would have clothes, a place to live, food, etc. The boys and sister grabbed their end of the day activities and started to leave. I hugged the two of them and shed a tear for their uncertainty. After my co-workers and I gathered our composure, the less mature one of the two came in to get our phone numbers. As we gathered around him we realized that the boys knew what was going on. They knew he was gone, they knew they weren't going to talk to their father for a long time, and they knew he could be in Mexico, in jail. There was nothing they could do. We hugged the smaller boy and he started to cry, knowing that we wouldn't see him again. We cried with him, with all the same uncertainty as he had. As he left we saw the other boy and hugged and cried with both of them.


I now see the personal side of this issue. I know this issue is too large to see every single story, and it's like any other issue, a few stories will get lots of attention, but I'm just asking that anyone who has the mentality that everyone who somehow gets into the United States to do that so called "work Americans don't want to do" or even the work we do want to do, that we think about the families, the children, and their futures.

[Phenomanul]

Stealing someone else identity is not illegal? How would
you like it if they stole yours and screwed up your life?

Those that come into the country illegally break the law
at least twice, once from entering the country illegally
and again when they take someone else's identity.

It is also an insult to those that try to do it right and
come into the country legally. Or is it okay by you
to have someone cut in the line ahead of you?

I don't understand why you relatives have such a hard
time coming here to visit. I know many from out of
country to visit have no trouble at all.

That is not the case for the majority of undocumented workers xray. They make up SSN numbers or use those of dead citizens. I just love how the minority scenario (identity theft) somehow becomes the rule and not the exception.

In laymens terms....

Is identity theft bad? Of course it is I don't condone it - never have.

Are all undocumented workers using this method?

A resounding NO. Less than 1% of illegal immigrants use someone else's SSN. Most of the time it is sold to them by the people actually making a profit from this scheme (the true criminals behind this problem).

More than 75% of undocumented workers don't even use fake SSNs. They don't use one at all. The remainder use defunct numbers or fake ones that are completely made up.

Please don't pool everyone together and get your facts straight. Again, that is why it enfuriates me when American isolationists take the high road, and proclaim that all undocumented workers are 'criminals'... as if they needed to be lumped with the true scum of society.

As far as my relatives go... being in Mexico's lower economic class doesn't help. The upper class can get in with relative ease. The very small middle class can get in if they try hard and have a decent profession. The lower class has an almost zero percent chance of coming here for a 'visit'.

[Phenomanul]

Characterize my mindset in whatever terms you like; however, I'd like an answer to this question:



See, the problem I'm having is that while I answer your questions, you keep reframing the debate. That is the root of the impasse. If you're unwilling to answer questions, what more can I do?

And yeah, I do get a little riled about certain topics, but always remember we'll be standing shoulder to shoulder from November to June.

Cheers!


This is not the first thread on the topic... if you do a forum search you will see that I've already addressed this side of the issue.

Of course other nations are accountable and should be held accountable for the plight of their people. Unfortunately, those nations are also highly corrupt. Don't lose sight of the fact that this burden falls squarely on the people and not the wealthly corrupt politicians. Again, they won't sit there and starve to death without doing anything to fix their own personal situation. If the government doesn't help them they will do whatever is needed to help themselves. And that is exactly what they do.

[nsrammstein]

Visiting is different than coming here to work

[SRJ]

For everyone making the same point...



You cannot lump illegal immigrants with criminals

Here it is as clearly as I am capable of stating it:

Murder is a crime.
Stealing is a crime.
Public intoxication is a crime.
These are all criminal actions,
and those who commit crimes
are criminals. While it is true
that murder is much worse
than either public intoxication
or stealing, they are all crimes
nonetheless.

Illegal aliens are not (usually)
murderers, rapists, or even
public drunks, but they are
criminals nonetheless. No
matter how badly they
suffer, no matter how good
their intentions are, illegal
aliens are committing a crime.

Do you forgive a man for holding up a bank if he's just trying to improve his family's situation?

[nsrammstein]

Even crimnals are eligible for Parole for good behavior why not let these ''criminals'' have 2nd chance? Hell even rapist or murderers are eligible for parole after a certain number of years and good behavior.

[SRJ]

There is no excuse to allow America to be solely responsible for this problem. So far we have shouldered the entire burden, and it has to stop. There are both positives and negatives to immigration for the US, but tell me one significant way it hurts Mexico.

IMO, hold the Mexican govt responsible and American businesses responsible and this problem will be dramatically lessened.

Thank you very much.

[Phenomanul]

For everyone making the same point...




Here it is as clearly as I am capable of stating it:

Murder is a crime.
Stealing is a crime.
Public intoxication is a crime.
These are all criminal actions,
and those who commit crimes
are criminals. While it is true
that murder is much worse
than either public intoxication
or stealing, they are all crimes
nonetheless.

Illegal aliens are not (usually)
murderers, rapists, or even
public drunks, but they are
criminals nonetheless. No
matter how badly they
suffer, no matter how good
their intentions are, illegal
aliens are committing a crime.

Do you forgive a man for holding up a bank if he's just trying to improve his family's situation?

That right there is the crux of our impasse. Your perspective on the matter lacks compassion and understanding... I mean, why would you shell it out? These people mean nothing to you... they are beneath you... they don't deserve to breathe the air we breathe or even to set foot in this glorious nation.

We get it (you didn't have to enlarge the font for us to understand this underlying philosphy governed your thinking).

[Phenomanul]

I must go now.... have somewhere to be.

Besides, changing peoples' minds was never the intent of this forum... I won't however, tolerate the slander of innocent people (the majority are not identity thieves people - their one true crime). Especially when this sector of society is indirectly responsible for improving my own cost of living.

[SRJ]

That right there is the crux of our impasse. Your perspective on the matter lacks compassion and understanding... I mean, why would you shell it out? These people mean nothing to you... they are beneath you... they don't deserve to breathe the air we breathe or even to set foot in this glorious nation.

We get it (you didn't have to enlarge the font for us to understand this underlying philosphy governed your thinking).

Yep, that's exactly right. I want people to suffer. :rolleyes

Here, let me distort your viewpoint now.


We should just have open borders everywhere. In fact, we shouldn't have nations. And you know, we shouldn't ever observe the law if someone is trying to feed their family. In fact, I hope someone with a starving family mugs me tonight. I won't press charges.

[SRJ]

I won't however, tolerate the slander of innocent people.

Yeah! You tell 'em! Uh, tell me!

[peewee's lovechild]

I don't particularly want a wall on either border; I want adequate security. If that means putting up a wall here or there so be it.

Rep. Solomon Ortiz, a Democrat and ex-Border Patrolman, said in Texas Monthly that you don't need a wall across the entire southern border, but you do need a wall in a few spots. I hope Ortiz isn't a racist for saying so.

First of all, Ortiz is an idiot (I know, I've met the man) who has the benefit of representing a purely Democratic constituency where no one who ever opposes him during election.

I know, I lived in his region.

Secondly, just what good to build only a few walls??
Really, that's just the height of idiocy.

Explain, if you can, the effectiveness of having only a few walls instead of one long wall on the entire southern border.

But, you never answered my question about a border on the Canadian front.
Do you, or don't you support walling up the northern border with Canada??

Explain your answer either way.

[peewee's lovechild]

You are fooling yourself if you think not having illegals here doesn't help the cost of living big time, I am a brick/block/stone mason, if there were no illegals it would cost twice as much for a block wall, or stone work, three times as much for any kind of brick work, Americans are too lazy to do the work I do, (I'm Canadian). You just don't see many white workers in my field.

Just curious:

Do you ever face the same type of xenophobia that our darker friends from the south face?

Or, do they tell you that you should go back home to Canada because you're taking American jobs?

[peewee's lovechild]

Stealing someone else identity is not illegal? How would
you like it if they stole yours and screwed up your life?

Those that come into the country illegally break the law
at least twice, once from entering the country illegally
and again when they take someone else's identity.

It is also an insult to those that try to do it right and
come into the country legally. Or is it okay by you
to have someone cut in the line ahead of you?

I don't understand why you relatives have such a hard
time coming here to visit. I know many from out of
country to visit have no trouble at all.

When I was working at UT-Brownsville, there was a guy who stole over a thousand social security numbers from the university database. People panicked and some had to change their ssn.

The guy who did it was white.

He was arrested and charged with a couple of felonies.

It's too bad he wasn't Mexican . . . it sure would have backed up your theory.

[peewee's lovechild]

Why Joe? Those people entering were doing so legally.
And some weren't admitted. Learn your history before
trying to make a mockery of the term immigrants.
Illegal is illegal. There is no such thing as human rights
or rights for those that come illegally. They are law
breakers just like a robber. They also rob, rob other
people of their identity.

You should make a flow chart and draw out what people weren't admitted to the U.S.

It would be pretty high on white Europeans and very low on other races.

How many peoples from Africa have been turned away, aside from the ones that were forced to be here of course?
I'm curious.

[xrayzebra]

There isn't a simple answer to immigration in the United States. For some reason many people believe that the American society cannot survive without these "illegal" people working for us. Before this summer I was always one of these people who believe that no matter what happened, if someone came into the United States without going through legal processes should be thrown out without question. I really don't have anything to say on the recent immigration news, but I would like to share a little story with all of you. You can read it, skip over it, or even call my bullshit, but it has really affected my "Get them all out of here!" opinion."

About two weeks ago a parent came up as my elementary students were coming in to their last day of camp. One of my co-workers asked for me to come up and listen to a conversation she and a parent were having, just to be clear because it was in Spanish. We talked for a little bit and the mom, who has 5th grade twin boys with the biggest attitudes in the world, says, in broken English, "I don't think the boys are going to be here tomorrow." In my rushed actions I shrugged it off because it was the last day. I said, "It's okay, it's the last day." She responded with..."My husband was taken back to Mexico by immigration." I had a shocked look on my face. I would never have thought of it. We went through the day with a heavy heart, just because I knew it was a family. They seem tight knit and loving. I hugged and held on to the boys just to let them know I was there for them. I even asked the more mature one if he was alright with what was going on with his father. He just told me "He's on vacation in mexico."


heir mom came in with their cousins and little sister close to pick them up and their mother came up to talk to me. I embraced her and told her things would get better. Through her tears we talked and she told me their story. It was a story of uncertainty. That's what I never though of before. The United States brings some sort of certainty to these families lives. Whether they're here for a few weeks or for nine years working towards their visas, there is a pay-check and food...if they find a good job. This family of five had rent to pay ($480 a month), school to get ready for, and all those other things I can't think of. The mother was just so unsure of what to come she couldn't keep it together any longer. She was so strong, so powerful, so amazing. I admire her now. Before she was just a mother.

The church secretary came over to talk with us to make sure all over things were taken came of, that the boys would have clothes, a place to live, food, etc. The boys and sister grabbed their end of the day activities and started to leave. I hugged the two of them and shed a tear for their uncertainty. After my co-workers and I gathered our composure, the less mature one of the two came in to get our phone numbers. As we gathered around him we realized that the boys knew what was going on. They knew he was gone, they knew they weren't going to talk to their father for a long time, and they knew he could be in Mexico, in jail. There was nothing they could do. We hugged the smaller boy and he started to cry, knowing that we wouldn't see him again. We cried with him, with all the same uncertainty as he had. As he left we saw the other boy and hugged and cried with both of them.


I now see the personal side of this issue. I know this issue is too large to see every single story, and it's like any other issue, a few stories will get lots of attention, but I'm just asking that anyone who has the mentality that everyone who somehow gets into the United States to do that so called "work Americans don't want to do" or even the work we do want to do, that we think about the families, the children, and their futures.


Your story is touching. But, how is it the fault of the
United States that someone who comes into the U.S.
illegally and gets caught and sent back home and it
breaks up his/her family. Why cant the whole family
return with the illegal person? Even if the person who
marries the illegal is legal, aren't they aware that this
may be consequence of their marriage?

Oh, but the conditions that live in when they return will
be terrible. Sorry, but that again is not the fault of the
United States.

People keep talking about human rights. What in the
world is human rights? Someone care to explain that
to me. Is it to have a good job? Decent housing?
Two cars? A color TV? Football on Saturday/Sunday
afternoon. You as an American citizen aren't even
guaranteed that. All you are guaranteed is the
"pursuit of happiness" and even that can be defined
in any number of ways. We, as U.S. citizens have
certain rights, as defined by the constitution. The
other so called rights are what people "think" they have.
The government does not create wealth or happiness. It
takes money from the producers and redistributes it
in any number of ways. By force is necessary and will
take your home, vehicles and bank account to raise that
money. Nice rights, huh? (is that a violation of your human rights) And I might add does government ever
ask you if you can afford the pay those taxes. Nope
they take their cut up front.

Those that come to the United States illegally are
fully aware of the risk they are taking. And obviously
willing to take those risk to improve their lot in life. But
even in Mexico and any number of other countries they
have the same basic rights as we do. They don't flee
their country to find basic rights, just to improve their
plight. And unfortunately you have situations where they
attempt to raise a family as you describe knowing full
well what the consequences may be. I understand know
it isn't a good situation but it is not one of my making or
the governments making. It is a situation brought on
by the actions of the illegal.

[SRJ]

Since you addressed Ortiz, I don't know how you missed this answer, since it was in the same post. I'll repost it:


I don't particularly want a wall on either border; I want adequate security. If that means putting up a wall here or there so be it.

So the opinion of an ex-Border Patrolman, a man who has actual firsthand experience about this issue, is irrelevant? Consider this your chance to educate me about Congressman Ortiz, as I didn't live in his district as you did.

If he's an idiot, I need evidence. I'm not prepared to accept your word just yet, but I am receptive to the case against.

[peewee's lovechild]

For everyone making the same point...




Here it is as clearly as I am capable of stating it:

Murder is a crime.
Stealing is a crime.
Public intoxication is a crime.
These are all criminal actions,
and those who commit crimes
are criminals. While it is true
that murder is much worse
than either public intoxication
or stealing, they are all crimes
nonetheless.

Illegal aliens are not (usually)
murderers, rapists, or even
public drunks, but they are
criminals nonetheless. No
matter how badly they
suffer, no matter how good
their intentions are, illegal
aliens are committing a crime.

Do you forgive a man for holding up a bank if he's just trying to improve his family's situation?


How absolutely very Christian of you.

I'm sure Jesus is looking down on you with a smile.

[peewee's lovechild]

Since you addressed Ortiz, I don't know how you missed this answer, since it was in the same post. I'll repost it:



So the opinion of an ex-Border Patrolman, a man who has actual firsthand experience about this issue, is irrelevant? Consider this your chance to educate me about Congressman Ortiz, as I didn't live in his district as you did.

If he's an idiot, I need evidence. I'm not prepared to accept your word just yet, but I am receptive to the case against.

He was asked about his voting record in the House and he said that he didn't keep count of his vote (he said all this in broken english). It turned out that he only voted twice during that particular session.

Yea, he's a great man and his opinion really counts.

[peewee's lovechild]

You still haven't told me about your opinion on the Canadian border.

Both borders are porous, although the Canadian border isn't patrolled as heavily as the Mexican border. Which, in turn, means that it is easier to cross the Canadian border and do some damage in the U.S.A.

Yet, Congress and the rest of America is concerned with putting a wall only on the Mexican border.

I'd just like to see you say that the Canadian border should be treated the same as the Mexican border.

Will you agree with that?

[nsrammstein]

We are all murderers we've all stepped on a bug or squashed a mosquito before

[peewee's lovechild]

We are all murderers we've all stepped on a bug or squashed a mosquito before

When it comes to insects, I'm a mass murderer.

I'm freaking serial.

I hate insects.
I want to promote insect holocaust.
The world would be better of without insects.

In my opinion, that is.

[CuckingFunt]

When it comes to insects, I'm a mass murderer.

I'm freaking serial.

I hate insects.
I want to promote insect holocaust.
The world would be better of without insects.

In my opinion, that is.Agreed.

With the exception of bees and the whole pollenation thing, the only real purpose of insects is to kill other insects. Eliminate them all, and problem's solved.

Bees can stay for honey.

And ladybugs, dragonflies and mantises can all stay 'cause they're cool looking.

The rest are gone.

[nsrammstein]

Your story is touching. But, how is it the fault of the
United States that someone who comes into the U.S.
illegally and gets caught and sent back home and it
breaks up his/her family. Why cant the whole family
return with the illegal person? Even if the person who
marries the illegal is legal, aren't they aware that this
may be consequence of their marriage?

Oh, but the conditions that live in when they return will
be terrible. Sorry, but that again is not the fault of the
United States.

People keep talking about human rights. What in the
world is human rights? Someone care to explain that
to me. Is it to have a good job? Decent housing?
Two cars? A color TV? Football on Saturday/Sunday
afternoon. You as an American citizen aren't even
guaranteed that. All you are guaranteed is the
"pursuit of happiness" and even that can be defined
in any number of ways. We, as U.S. citizens have
certain rights, as defined by the constitution. The
other so called rights are what people "think" they have.
The government does not create wealth or happiness. It
takes money from the producers and redistributes it
in any number of ways. By force is necessary and will
take your home, vehicles and bank account to raise that
money. Nice rights, huh? (is that a violation of your human rights) And I might add does government ever
ask you if you can afford the pay those taxes. Nope
they take their cut up front.

Those that come to the United States illegally are
fully aware of the risk they are taking. And obviously
willing to take those risk to improve their lot in life. But
even in Mexico and any number of other countries they
have the same basic rights as we do. They don't flee
their country to find basic rights, just to improve their
plight. And unfortunately you have situations where they
attempt to raise a family as you describe knowing full
well what the consequences may be. I understand know
it isn't a good situation but it is not one of my making or
the governments making. It is a situation brought on
by the actions of the illegal.

Some people are just living in this fantasy world where everyone will be legal and no one will commit any crime or heaven forbid cut in the restaurant line, it ain't gona happen why? because the demand for labor is great in this country and as long as there is a demand for hard labor illegal immigrants are going to keep coming here. Unless we make the requirements for a work visa less demanding we will keep having illegals here.

[peewee's lovechild]

Agreed.

With the exception of bees and the whole pollenation thing, the only real purpose of insects is to kill other insects. Eliminate them all, and problem's solved.

Bees can stay for honey.

And ladybugs, dragonflies and mantises can all stay 'cause they're cool looking.

The rest are gone.

I hate the way mantises stare at me.
They give me that "I'll kill you in your sleep" look.

I hate them.

I don't consider bees insects.
They're cool.

Honey is so much better than sugar.

[CuckingFunt]

I hate the way mantises stare at me.
They give me that "I'll kill you in your sleep" look.

I hate them.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5808/zorakzv1.gif

[peewee's lovechild]

Some people are just living in this fantasy world where everyone will be legal and no one will commit any crime or heaven forbid cut in the restaurant line, it ain't gona happen why? because the demand for labor is great in this country and as long as there is a demand for hard labor illegal immigrants are going to keep coming here. Unless we make the requirements for a work visa less demanding we will keep having illegals here.

Dude, do you even realise how much money it costs to go the legal route???
Fuck me!!

They are asking Mexicans, and others from 3rd world countries, to pay up thousands just so their applications can be considered.

I know people who paid all of thier fees and then the government says, "thanks, but no thanks." There's no refunds if they should no be accepted.

So, if you can come in for free by any means possible and avoid paying thousands of dollars just so you can be rejected (eventhough employers are dying to get to you), of course you're going to do it.

[peewee's lovechild]

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5808/zorakzv1.gif

I almost stabbed my screen with a spoon!!!

[nsrammstein]

Dude, do you even realise how much money it costs to go the legal route???
Fuck me!!

They are asking Mexicans, and others from 3rd world countries, to pay up thousands just so their applications can be considered.

I know people who paid all of thier fees and then the government says, "thanks, but no thanks." There's no refunds if they should no be accepted.

So, if you can come in for free by any means possible and avoid paying thousands of dollars just so you can be rejected (eventhough employers are dying to get to you), of course you're going to do it.

Yeah I heard its close to $500 dollars just to get an application! lol

[peewee's lovechild]

Yeah I heard its close to $500 dollars just to get an application! lol

$500 for the app.
$500 for the background check.
$200 for pics and other items I'm forgetting at the moment.

$2,000 for residency.

And, $500 for citizen app (if you should want citizenship).

[ashbeeigh]

But, how is it the fault of the
United States that someone who comes into the U.S.
illegally and gets caught and sent back home and it
breaks up his/her family. Why cant the whole family
return with the illegal person? Even if the person who
marries the illegal is legal, aren't they aware that this
may be consequence of their marriage?

Well of course. I see your point, but as far as I can see, from this one case, the boys and little sister are American. She mentioned when they turn 21 they can.... which may be why she was left here. The boys were American...which is another problem I see. All these children are born in the united States...draining more social service funds, health, education, etc. And coming from a 4th generation Czech American who's ancestors did everything the right way... I become offended.




People keep talking about human rights. What in the
world is human rights? Someone care to explain that
to me.

Yet again, agreed. At least it's a lot more defined in the United States than it is in Latin America.

[ashbeeigh]

Some people are just living in this fantasy world where everyone will be legal and no one will commit any crime or heaven forbid cut in the restaurant line, it ain't gona happen why? because the demand for labor is great in this country and as long as there is a demand for hard labor illegal immigrants are going to keep coming here. Unless we make the requirements for a work visa less demanding we will keep having illegals here.

Exactly. And then there's that double standard where illegals want some things that citizens work for all their lives and get it right away, scholarships, insurance, mortage help. :madrun I think that kind of stuff bothers me more than the whole visa thing. I don't too much agree with the loosing of amnesty for work visas, they take the risk, I'm so sorry.

[peewee's lovechild]

Exactly. And then there's that double standard where illegals want some things that citizens work for all their lives and get it right away, scholarships, insurance, mortage help. :madrun I think that kind of stuff bothers me more than the whole visa thing. I don't too much agree with the loosing of amnesty for work visas, they take the risk, I'm so sorry.

Jesus Christ was an immigrant. His parents immigrated to Egypt for a while. And, he also moved from Bethlahem to Nazareth to Jerusalem.

I wonder what kind of resources Jesus and his crew were draining with each place he emigrated to.

Jesus would have pissed you off.

[cherylsteele]

When I was working at UT-Brownsville, there was a guy who stole over a thousand social security numbers from the university database. People panicked and some had to change their ssn.

The guy who did it was white.

He was arrested and charged with a couple of felonies.

It's too bad he wasn't Mexican . . . it sure would have backed up your theory.
Maybe he was being paid by a company to get those numbers so that company could use them for their illegal workers and not get caught by Uncle Sam?

The big problem is that the immigration problem has been going on for some time now and now we are rushing to fix it with what seems like stop-gap measures. I don't have the answers, nobody does I think but rushing to judgement without thinking things out got us in the mess we are now.

This country was built on immigration, hence the term "melting pot"....my ancestors came over legally though through Ellis Island. I am not sure what we do with the illegals already here....I am sure that as you find businesses that hire them, you fine those businesses so much that it makes examples for other companies not to hire them. You reduce or eliminate the reason they come across they will stop or diminish significantly. Another problem is not the US government, it is Mexico's corrupt government, we need to find a way to help Mexico help itself so their people will stay and work there.

[ashbeeigh]

Jesus would have pissed you off.

He may have.

[Extra Stout]

Jesus Christ was an immigrant. His parents immigrated to Egypt for a while. And, he also moved from Bethlahem to Nazareth to Jerusalem.

I wonder what kind of resources Jesus and his crew were draining with each place he emigrated to.

Jesus would have pissed you off.
Nice attempt; however, unfortunately for your point, Syria, Iudaea, and Aegyptus were all provinces of the Roman Empire back then.

[E20]

Yeah if you guys the world would be better off w/o insects, you guys are delusional.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Xray, could you please show me where in the Constitution it says only citizens have human rights?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Remember that little thing, Xray?

"All men..."

Not citizens, but all men.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

And before we continue, just remember what you originally said.


There is no such thing as human rights
or rights for those that come illegally.

So is it only citizens that have those human rights?

[Phenomanul]

Too bad we don't live in a UTOPIA....

If we did, our world would disintegrate 'ala the Matrix... humans need conflict, strife, power struggles, boundaries and a lack of equanimity to exist...

[Phenomanul]

And before we continue, just remember what you originally said.



So is it only citizens that have those human rights?


That's why I mentioned that it is our social welfare program that needs the most reform.... I'm sick of lazy people feeling entitled to benefits and money simply because they are American Cititzens... People simply can't fathom just how vast of a tax-drain this particular problem poses on our economy.

[td4mvp21]

I'll quit "demonizing" them when they quit coming into the country and fucking up social security, the welfare system, and raising crime levels. Hear about the execution style shootings in New Jersey? One of the suspects was an illegal immigrant. Interesting.

[Phenomanul]

I'll quit "demonizing" them when they quit coming into the country and fucking up social security, the welfare system, and raising crime levels. Hear about the execution style shootings in New Jersey? One of the suspects was an illegal immigrant. Interesting.

So kick THEM out.

We don't have room for extra felons.

Unfortunately for your theory, the vast majority of undocumented workers are not gang bangers, or thugs.

[nsrammstein]

Hear about the execution style shootings in New Jersey? One of the suspects was an illegal immigrant. Interesting.

Making them come forward from the shadows would get rid of this, seriously make them go through a background check and criminal history, they knew this guy had a criminal background.

[td4mvp21]

So kick THEM out.

We don't have room for extra felons.

Unfortunately for your theory, the vast majority of undocumented workers are not gang bangers, or thugs.

I don't give a shit if the vast majority of WORKERS are not thugs, there are too many illegal aliens in this country PERIOD who are thugs. I don't care if Americans pose the same threat, at least immigrants' crimes can be prevented, if they come in illegally.

Also, a shit load of those undocumented workers probably don't pay taxes and have a fake SS. Bye bye, social security.

You guys want them to have rights in this country? Tell them to start acting like American citizens and paying taxes like the majority of Americans in this country.

[td4mvp21]

Making them come forward from the shadows would get rid of this, seriously make them go through a background check and criminal history, they knew this guy had a criminal background.

That is the worst part about the whole thing.

[Extra Stout]

Also, a shit load of those undocumented workers probably don't pay taxes and have a fake SS. Bye bye, social security.
If they have a fake SS, then they are paying Social Security taxes, which are withheld from their pay, despite their (rightfully) being ineligible to collect.

We still need a comprehensive immigration policy, but your point is nonsensical.

[td4mvp21]

If they have a fake SS, then they are paying Social Security taxes, which are withheld from their pay, despite their (rightfully) being ineligible to collect.

We still need a comprehensive immigration policy, but your point is nonsensical.

Didn't think about that, but at the same time, what if it's your social security number?

[JoeChalupa]

I'll quit "demonizing" them when they quit coming into the country and fucking up social security, the welfare system, and raising crime levels. Hear about the execution style shootings in New Jersey? One of the suspects was an illegal immigrant. Interesting.

Yeah, I've never heard of an American Citizen committing a crime. Like those two aholes who had just been released from prison and went on a home invasion and killing spree. Interesting indeed.

[td4mvp21]

Yeah, I've never heard of an American Citizen committing a crime. Like those two aholes who had just been released from prison and went on a home invasion and killing spree. Interesting indeed.

Gee, I think I pointed that out in another post. Like I said, ILLEGAL immigrants' crimes shouldn't even exist, because they are here ILLEGALLY and shouldn't be here in the first place. Their crimes should be quite preventable. Our stupid "justice" system is a whole other argument.

[JoeChalupa]

Gee, I think I pointed that out in another post. Like I said, ILLEGAL immigrants' crimes shouldn't even exist, because they are here ILLEGALLY and shouldn't be here in the first place. Their crimes should be quite preventable. Our stupid "justice" system is a whole other argument.

Our stupid "justice" system if the best in the world, IMO. Is it perfect? No, but neither is our immigration system. I don't have any problem with enforcing the laws as we have them now.
Crimes shouldn't even exist at all but not everyone is going to play by the rules and they never will. Even if you were to remove every illegal immigrant you are not going to elminate crime. Will it lessen. Sure, but becuase of less population. Not because people's tendency to commit crime lessens.
That is just me though.
I understand your frustration.

[ggoose25]

Sorry Joe. Our justice system blows. Gonzalez chokes on wang 24/7.

[td4mvp21]

Our stupid "justice" system if the best in the world, IMO. Is it perfect? No, but neither is our immigration system. I don't have any problem with enforcing the laws as we have them now.
Crimes shouldn't even exist at all but not everyone is going to play by the rules and they never will. Even if you were to remove every illegal immigrant you are not going to elminate crime. Will it lessen. Sure, but becuase of less population. Not because people's tendency to commit crime lessens.
That is just me though.
I understand your frustration.

I think our justice system has critical flaws in it. For instance, the situation you mentioned. It probably is better than most others, though.

I agree with you, but to me, a lot of headache and unneccessary occurrences could be avoided if stricter borders and laws were in place. I do, however, think the government should make the process easier for immigrants to become legal citizens. I think we could actually benefit from that. Like others said, they remain an integral part of our workforce.

[JoeChalupa]

I think our justice system has critical flaws in it. For instance, the situation you mentioned. It probably is better than most others, though.

I agree with you, but to me, a lot of headache and unneccessary occurrences could be avoided if stricter borders and laws were in place. I do, however, think the government should make the process easier for immigrants to become legal citizens. I think we could actually benefit from that. Like others said, they remain an integral part of our workforce.

I concur. I do believe that if we would enforce our borders and laws as they are now things would change. A lot of the problem is that many immigranst simply don't have the documentation that we as Americans take for granted. Many are born and not documented so they have no "legal papers" stating who they are such as a birth certificate.
Now granted, I don't know all the redtape there is to get into this country but I don't get why as an American I can pay $100 for a passport and get into almost any other country in the world.
I just find it hard to be "cold blooded" or whatever and just have the "deport them all" or "that's too bad" attitude towards my fellow man. But I guess there comes a time for tought love for us all.

[JoeChalupa]

Sorry Joe. Our justice system blows. Gonzalez chokes on wang 24/7.

:lmao

[peewee's lovechild]

I'll quit "demonizing" them when they quit coming into the country and fucking up social security, the welfare system, and raising crime levels. Hear about the execution style shootings in New Jersey? One of the suspects was an illegal immigrant. Interesting.

I guess South Compton must be full of immigrants because of all the crime and what not.

[td4mvp21]

I guess South Compton must be full of immigrants because of all the crime and what not.


I don't care if Americans pose the same threat, at least immigrants' crimes can be prevented, if they come in illegally.

I already acknowledged that Americans are responsible for crime as well.

[peewee's lovechild]

I don't give a shit if the vast majority of WORKERS are not thugs, there are too many illegal aliens in this country PERIOD who are thugs. I don't care if Americans pose the same threat, at least immigrants' crimes can be prevented, if they come in illegally.

Also, a shit load of those undocumented workers probably don't pay taxes and have a fake SS. Bye bye, social security.

You guys want them to have rights in this country? Tell them to start acting like American citizens and paying taxes like the majority of Americans in this country.

If social securtiy is what's your main concern, it's not the illegal immigrants that will cause it's demise . . . it's all the baby boomers that are going to retire real soon.

Social Securtiy is a system with many flaws, and illegal immigrants is the least of it's concern. The funny thing is that you don't understand how it all works. If an illegal immigrant steals a SSN, that would mean that he's actually paying into the system. That person wouldn't be able to get any benefits because prior to getting any benefits you have to prove you are the person who owns the SSN.

Now welfare . . . mmmmm, you may have a point. But, you will find that it's the actual U.S. citizens that abuse of it much more than these illegal immigrants.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I guess South Compton must be full of immigrants because of all the crime and what not.Doesn't sound like you've been there before. I know they are all not all illegal immigrants, but there are a ton of Mexicans there. If you were trying to insinuate that South Compton is all African American, you are very wrong.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm pretty sure not all of them are Mexicans either. There many illegal immigrants who are NOT Mexican.

[peewee's lovechild]

Nice attempt; however, unfortunately for your point, Syria, Iudaea, and Aegyptus were all provinces of the Roman Empire back then.

LOL.

I see you got that.
Well, you get the spirit of the arguement.

Jesus Christ would have such an attitude towards the illegal immigrants. So, I just found it funny that one of ST most avid christians was willing to adopt such an attitude.

[peewee's lovechild]

I already acknowledged that Americans are responsible for crime as well.

You said "I don't care if Americans pose the same threat".

I just don't see what you're trying to say.

Enforcing immigration laws is going to reduce crime in America??
Do you really believe that??

Look, this is what's going to happen to the crime rates in America if you get rid of illegal immigrants:

Nothing.

The rates, percentages and types of crime will all still be there.

You are a fool to believe otherwise.

[peewee's lovechild]

Doesn't sound like you've been there before. I know they are all not all illegal immigrants, but there are a ton of Mexicans there. If you were trying to insinuate that South Compton is all African American, you are very wrong.

I never said anything about it being all African American. I was just pointing it out as a well known place of violence. However, I doubt there is a large percentage of illegal immigrants raising all sorts of hell there.

Just what is it that you're trying to point out about Mexicans being there. So, every brown person living there is just classified as "Mexican" regardless of the fact that they have been born in the U.S.?

Nice.

[td4mvp21]

You said "I don't care if Americans pose the same threat".

I just don't see what you're trying to say.

Enforcing immigration laws is going to reduce crime in America??
Do you really believe that??

Look, this is what's going to happen to the crime rates in America if you get rid of illegal immigrants:

Nothing.

The rates, percentages and types of crime will all still be there.

You are a fool to believe otherwise.

I'm trying to say that crimes committed by illegal aliens are completely preventable, given the right amount of border security. That is less crime, if you subtract the crime from illegal immigrants, no? It wouldn't make a huge dent in the crime rate, but less of any crime is a good thing.

[peewee's lovechild]

I concur. I do believe that if we would enforce our borders and laws as they are now things would change. A lot of the problem is that many immigranst simply don't have the documentation that we as Americans take for granted. Many are born and not documented so they have no "legal papers" stating who they are such as a birth certificate.
Now granted, I don't know all the redtape there is to get into this country but I don't get why as an American I can pay $100 for a passport and get into almost any other country in the world.
I just find it hard to be "cold blooded" or whatever and just have the "deport them all" or "that's too bad" attitude towards my fellow man. But I guess there comes a time for tought love for us all.

History moves in cycles, it always has. This country is still in it's infancy. We haven't been in power for long at all. Think of the consequences if this country should take a fall.

I'm not saying that Mexico will be the next in line for power, but it very soon could be us trying to get in somewhere else for help.

I just hope everybody's ready for all this "tough" love.

[peewee's lovechild]

I'm trying to say that crimes committed by illegal aliens are completely preventable, given the right amount of border security. That is less crime, if you subtract the crime from illegal immigrants, no? It wouldn't make a huge dent in the crime rate, but less of any crime is a good thing.

Understand that there will never be "less crime" by removing illegal aliens. Some other group will take their place. You're completely delusional if you think that the rates will drop.

Getting rid of illegal aliens is the panacea for crime. You really can't be this dense. Plus, you're making it seem like there's a HUGE part of the illegal population that engages in crime. Don't assume that what you see on T.V. represents an entire population.

If T.V. assumptions were true, then I would believe that all white people have sex with their sisters and cousins and all black people have great athletic talent and a knack for selling drugs.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Just what is it that you're trying to point out about Mexicans being there. So, every brown person living there is just classified as "Mexican" regardless of the fact that they have been born in the U.S.?

Nice.You ever been there? Would it have been better if I said Mexican-American?

[peewee's lovechild]

You ever been there? Would it have been better if I said Mexican-American?

That clarifies things.

[peewee's lovechild]

But, what is your point?

[TheSanityAnnex]

And I'm not against illegal aliens. I grew up in North San Diego county in the Avocado capital of the world, and we had a ton of illegal aliens make my town their home. They work their asses off for minimal amounts of money only to send it home to their families in Mexico. I've got a ton of respect for a person who does that.

[TheSanityAnnex]

But, what is your point?I thought you were saying South Compton was entirely African-American, that is all.

[ashbeeigh]

LOL.
So, I just found it funny that one of ST most avid christians was willing to adopt such an attitude.

It's neither here nor there peewee. I believe in due process as well.

[peewee's lovechild]

I thought you were saying South Compton was entirely African-American, that is all.

I never said such a thing, never even implied it.

I'm trying not to get banned, remember?

[peewee's lovechild]

It's neither here nor there peewee. I believe in due process as well.

I don't know what sect you belong to, but true christians believe in living like Jesus Christ.

When in doubt, just ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?"

I'm trying to imagine Jesus telling illegal immigrants, "Get the fuck out!! We got due process here!!! I don't care what's going on in your country!! You are a burden to us!! What am I, your caretaker??"

Hmmm, I wonder if the benevolent Jesus-man could pull this off.

[peewee's lovechild]

And I'm not against illegal aliens. I grew up in North San Diego county in the Avocado capital of the world, and we had a ton of illegal aliens make my town their home. They work their asses off for minimal amounts of money only to send it home to their families in Mexico. I've got a ton of respect for a person who does that.

By the way, the avocado capital of the world is probably in Michoacan, MX. The entire state is practically covered in avocado trees.

[td4mvp21]

Understand that there will never be "less crime" by removing illegal aliens. Some other group will take their place. You're completely delusional if you think that the rates will drop.

Getting rid of illegal aliens is the panacea for crime. You really can't be this dense. Plus, you're making it seem like there's a HUGE part of the illegal population that engages in crime. Don't assume that what you see on T.V. represents an entire population.

If T.V. assumptions were true, then I would believe that all white people have sex with their sisters and cousins and all black people have great athletic talent and a knack for selling drugs.


http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

Go there, it's a small list of victims of illegal immigration crime. My point is that these crimes SHOULD NOT EVEN BE HAPPENING, because the wrongdoers SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THIS COUNTRY. I guess some people will only understand if it involves them. I'd be outraged if a friend or family member of mine was such a victim.




Illegal Alien Crime Wave in Full Swing
American Chronicle | August 4, 2005
By Jim Kouri

Jim Kouri, CPP is fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police and served in law enforcement for over 25 years. He writes for many police magazines such as Police Times. He's appeared as on-air commentator for over 100 TV and radio news and talk shows including Oprah, McLaughlin Report, CNN Headline News, MTV, Fox News, etc. His book Assume The Position is available at Amazon.Com and can be ordered at local bookstores.

Complex problems are associated with illegal aliens who commit crimes. Criminal aliens tend to be drug-oriented and violent, often preying on members of their own cultures. If deported, they frequently use new names to reenter the United States and establish residence in different cities. Furthermore, aliens do not confine their criminal activities to border cities--communities throughout this country are experiencing increasing alien involvement in drug importation and distribution, weapons smuggling, and violence against persons and property.

The escalation in alien crime has placed added demands on state and local law enforcement personnel. Effective identification of aliens involved in crime requires familiarity with fraudulent documentation. Proper arrest procedures must be carried out, and complex notification and reporting requirements must be satisfied; otherwise, dangerous aliens can escape prosecution and deportation. Handling the myriad problems

associated with alien crimes is often beyond the capabilities of local police departments.

Some illegal aliens in the United States have been arrested and incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails, adding to already overcrowded prisons and jails. On April 7, 2005, the US Justice Department issued a report on criminal aliens that were incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails.

In the population study of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.

They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.

[peewee's lovechild]

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

Go there, it's a small list of victims of illegal immigration crime. My point is that these crimes SHOULD NOT EVEN BE HAPPENING, because the wrongdoers SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THIS COUNTRY. I guess some people will only understand if it involves them. I'd be outraged if a friend or family member of mine was such a victim.


So, what you're saying here is that all the "wrongdoers" in this country are illegal aliens??

Dude, that's it . . . I give up.

One can never win a battle vs. a closet racist.

[TheSanityAnnex]

By the way, the avocado capital of the world is probably in Michoacan, MX. The entire state is practically covered in avocado trees.Maybe we are just avocado capital of the Nation??? Fallbrook, CA.

What kind of avocados do they grow there? Personally, I only eat Haas.

[td4mvp21]

So, what you're saying here is that all the "wrongdoers" in this country are illegal aliens??

Dude, that's it . . . I give up.

One can never win a battle vs. a closet racist.

I meant the wrongdoers OF THOSE CRIMES, you know, the ones committed by illegal aliens. I never meant to say that all wrongdoers are illegal aliens. You're blowing it way out of proportion. I'm fucking sick of everyone always bringing up racism in this discussion. I am not in the least bit racist. My best friend is Hispanic. My background is Hispanic and Lebanese. My friends consist of people from all races. So STFU and don't ever call me a "closet racist" just because you misinterpretated something that should have been clearly understood.

[ggoose25]

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o74/ggoose25/ththatsracist.gif

[E20]

Here is the best answer:

Illegal aliens have broken the law when they enter the United States illegally, since doing something illegal is against the law, proper action by the authorites should be taken if the illegal is caught.

End of the Thread.

[ashbeeigh]

Here is the best answer:

Illegal aliens have broken the law when they enter the United States illegally, since doing something illegal is against the law, proper action by the authorites should be taken if the illegal is caught.

End of the Thread.

[/CLOSE]

Finally E20 contributes to the Club!


:blah

[Phenomanul]

Here is the best answer:

Illegal aliens have broken the law when they enter the United States illegally, since doing something illegal is against the law, proper action by the authorites should be taken if the illegal is caught.

End of the Thread.

It's not a 'black and white' argument E20. If it were, the problem would not create such of rift of differing and dissenting opinions.

Besides, how can you claim that the assertion of that isolationist, race-selective, 'law' defines everything? How can it be reconciled with the basic premise of the Declaration of Independence? If our judiciary system were flawless you could claim that our laws were perfect; but since that is not the case that would then imply that maybe some of the laws were imperfect. This one falls into that category.

What would happen if Congress suddenly passed a law declaring that all 'left' handed people were criminals. How stupid does that sound? Well, what would be more apalling is if people actually bought into that concept.

The very dichotomy of doning rights to some while denying them to others is hypocrisy - that people justify their reconciliation is another matter. The two concepts are just too diametrically opposed. The fact remains, however, that the if the "pursuit of happiness" in an "unalienable right" then it would follow that it belongs to all people. Pay particular attention to the root word of the adjective preceeding the word 'right'.

Did it sink in?

Here it is...'Alien' or not... the right is 'unalienable' - not for a government or any other establishment to deny...

Again... one earns what they work for. These people work, they get paid. If they screw up, messing around with legitimate felonies kick 'em out. Should be simple... but no. Our xenophobic society rejects anything that might be perceived as a threat to the 'comforts' of their livelihoods. Oh no! My tax dolars are not being used on me! Me, me, me!!!! Our fears created this problem. These immigrants wouldn't have to enter the country 'illegally' if the legal processes weren't so unattainably restrictive.

Yes... I'm proud to be an American Citizen... but I try not to lose sight of the fact that compassion and service to others are attributes that honor this Grand Nation and not the other way around.

[nsrammstein]

I love it how after 9/11 no one was even thinking about the illegals here but now they all want a 5 mile high wall along the southern border because terrorists might sneak in! afterall the 9/11 terrorists did sneak in along the unprotected southern border. *sarcasm*

[E20]

It's not a 'black and white' argument E20. If it were, the problem would not create such of rift of differing and dissenting opinions.

Besides, how can you claim that the assertion of that isolationist, race-selective, 'law' defines everything? How can it be reconciled with the basic premise of the Declaration of Independence? If our judiciary system were flawless you could claim that our laws were perfect; but since that is not the case that would then imply that maybe some of the laws were imperfect. This one falls into that category.

What would happen if Congress suddenly passed a law declaring that all 'left' handed people were criminals. How stupid does that sound? Well, what would be more apalling is if people actually bought into that concept.

The very dichotomy of doning rights to some while denying them to others is hypocrisy - that people justify their reconciliation is another matter. The two concepts are just too diametrically opposed. The fact remains, however, that the if the "pursuit of happiness" in an "unalienable right" then it would follow that it belongs to all people. Pay particular attention to the root word of the adjective preceeding the word 'right'.

Did it sink in?

Here it is...'Alien' or not... the right is 'unalienable' - not for a government or any other establishment to deny...

Again... one earns what they work for. These people work, they get paid. If they screw up, messing around with legitimate felonies kick 'em out. Should be simple... but no. Our xenophobic society rejects anything that might be perceived as a threat to the 'comforts' of their livelihoods. Oh no! My tax dolars are not being used on me! Me, me, me!!!! Our fears created this problem. These immigrants wouldn't have to enter the country 'illegally' if the legal processes weren't so unattainably restrictive.

Yes... I'm proud to be an American Citizen... but I try not to lose sight of the fact that compassion and service to others are attributes that honor this Grand Nation and not the other way around.
It has to do with the wait period that is driving people to come here illegally. I mean it takes a lengthy time from 1 year up to maybe 6, but that is totally a different agenda. IMO A good solution would be is to pass a bill or some new law that allows a hastier registration process for a Visa/Green Card so that maybe it might tempt people to be more inclined to do it the legal way, but that would be tough to do because background checks and the rest of the other processes take a while so you can never really know who to let in until all is said and done. To be honest I don't even know how a person without any family connections can get inside the US, would they have to check with their own government first? I don't know, but if Congress can pass a new law where the registration process is still as effiecent, but cuts the wait period it might help or have some effect on the number of people just walking across the border.

[peewee's lovechild]

Maybe we are just avocado capital of the Nation??? Fallbrook, CA.

What kind of avocados do they grow there? Personally, I only eat Haas.

They're Haas, although I don't remember what they call it in Mexico.
They're pretty fucking good, that's all I know.

[peewee's lovechild]

I meant the wrongdoers OF THOSE CRIMES, you know, the ones committed by illegal aliens. I never meant to say that all wrongdoers are illegal aliens. You're blowing it way out of proportion. I'm fucking sick of everyone always bringing up racism in this discussion. I am not in the least bit racist. My best friend is Hispanic. My background is Hispanic and Lebanese. My friends consist of people from all races. So STFU and don't ever call me a "closet racist" just because you misinterpretated something that should have been clearly understood.

Hitler's artist mentor was Jewish.
So, I think you're proving nothing by naming all your race relations.

Your actions and your words frame what you are.

[peewee's lovechild]

Here is the best answer:

Illegal aliens have broken the law when they enter the United States illegally, since doing something illegal is against the law, proper action by the authorites should be taken if the illegal is caught.

End of the Thread.

Have you ever smoked pot?
Snorted coke?
Drank some beer (we all know you're under age)?

Then that would make you illegal as well.

Like how the shoe fits??

[peewee's lovechild]

I love it how after 9/11 no one was even thinking about the illegals here but now they all want a 5 mile high wall along the southern border because terrorists might sneak in! afterall the 9/11 terrorists did sneak in along the unprotected southern border. *sarcasm*

EXACTLY!!!!

The detractors should make note of where they came in through!!!!!!

[peewee's lovechild]

It has to do with the wait period that is driving people to come here illegally. I mean it takes a lengthy time from 1 year up to maybe 6, but that is totally a different agenda. IMO A good solution would be is to pass a bill or some new law that allows a hastier registration process for a Visa/Green Card so that maybe it might tempt people to be more inclined to do it the legal way, but that would be tough to do because background checks and the rest of the other processes take a while so you can never really know who to let in until all is said and done. To be honest I don't even know how a person without any family connections can get inside the US, would they have to check with their own government first? I don't know, but if Congress can pass a new law where the registration process is still as effiecent, but cuts the wait period it might help or have some effect on the number of people just walking across the border.

You still don't understand, and that could be because of your age.

If they streamline that process, this government would still deny Mexicans or any other peoples from third world countries because of thier point of origin.

I have not heard a single person in this thread tackle the problem with the Canadian border. Everyone assumes the worst from our Mexican border. All these closet racists believe that the worst comes from our Mexican border, but they refuse to see the real danger that comes from our Canadian border.

People coming from the Mexican border at worst want to work in the U.S.A., but Canada (that has a huge Middle Eastern poplulation) poses the real threat in terms of terrorism.

Yet, not one person here has advocated for a wall on the northern front.

That is blatant racism no matter how you put it.

[Phil Hellmuth]

Here is the best answer:

Illegal aliens have broken the law when they enter the United States illegally, since doing something illegal is against the law, proper action by the authorites should be taken if the illegal is caught.

End of the Thread.


laughable.
:blah

worst answer, sorry kiddo.

[xrayzebra]

Remember that little thing, Xray?

"All men..."

Not citizens, but all men.

And where have we violated any of these rights of an
illegal? Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

If I remember correctly we deprive people all the time
of their liberty (freedom of movement) by putting
them in jail for breaking the law. And I do believe
these people break our laws when they enter illegally.
Where in that statement do we guarantee it to anyone
showing up on our shores, uninvited. Using your sense
of reasoning if an illegal shows up they could run for
the office of President. But it happens that the
constitution says you must be NATIVE born to seek
that office. Gee the constitution gives with one hand
and takes away with other under your terms.

[xrayzebra]

And before we continue, just remember what you originally said.



So is it only citizens that have those human rights?

Would you please explain to me what is human rights?

[td4mvp21]

Hitler's artist mentor was Jewish.
So, I think you're proving nothing by naming all your race relations.

Your actions and your words frame what you are.

I said nothing of racist nature. I already explained to you what I meant by that phrase and you don't seem to want to listen. So I give up arguing with you.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

And where have we violated any of these rights of an
illegal? Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

I didn't say anybody did.

You said illegals don't have any rights. You said citizens were granted those rights in the Constitution.

I set out to prove your statements incorrect.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Would you please explain to me what is human rights?

It's generally accepted that humans are born with the rights to pursue life and liberty, not to be slaves, equal treatment in the eyes of the law, freedom of movement, family, owning property, free flow of information, freedom to worship as they so choose and more.

Now, before you twist what I said around and say give immigrants land and give them a TV (I think you said something about watching football on Sundays), I believe people must also abide by the social contract.

I don't believe either extreme is totally correct, and even then, I don't know the answers. I do know that A) there needs to be massive immigration reform, B) immediately detaining and deporting all undocumented persons without "A" only temporarily solves the problem, C) a form of asylum would allow those who pose no threat and only wish to find their own American dream an opportunity to do so while undergoing substantial checks and becoming tax-paying residents.

There's an efficient and happy medium to be found here. I just wish I had a clue as to exactly what it was.

[SRJ]

How absolutely very Christian of you.

I'm sure Jesus is looking down on you with a smile.

I'm actually an atheist, so I don't care about Jesus' opinion of me.

[E20]

You still don't understand, and that could be because of your age.

If they streamline that process, this government would still deny Mexicans or any other peoples from third world countries because of thier point of origin.

I have not heard a single person in this thread tackle the problem with the Canadian border. Everyone assumes the worst from our Mexican border. All these closet racists believe that the worst comes from our Mexican border, but they refuse to see the real danger that comes from our Canadian border.

People coming from the Mexican border at worst want to work in the U.S.A., but Canada (that has a huge Middle Eastern poplulation) poses the real threat in terms of terrorism.

Yet, not one person here has advocated for a wall on the northern front.

That is blatant racism no matter how you put it.
You're being racist right there, by saying all ME's are terrorists. :lol
When I said if they hasten the process, I never said everybody would get in faster, I said it would be hard if not harder for people that are poor to get in, because they have no way to contact the US or local government to apply for Visas. But, breaking a law is breaking a law and if an illegal gets caught he should be punished. I could care less if illegals are coming in, as long as they are not affected ME in a negative way. I could also care less if that illegal is doing criminal activites (drugs, theft etc.) because our own citzens do that same shit. So I just lump those criminals with the rest of them.

Bringing the threat of terrorism is a whole different arguement here, but the fact that Canada hasn't been payed any attention to is because that more people cross the border from down south than up north, so maybe that's why attention is being focused down south. I mean if a terrorist snuck in from Canada and did something, then all attention will be focused on Canada's border and nothing else, but so far that hasn't happend. I'm sure there are some stats around that more people have entered illegally from Mexico than Canada, so that's where the problem lies and that's where the attention is being focused.

[E20]

laughable.
:blah

worst answer, sorry kiddo.
I was being semi-sarcastic and posting the straight forward response. I know it gets deeper than that.

[peewee's lovechild]

You're being racist right there, by saying all ME's are terrorists. :lol


:lol

Funny.

Smart ass.

You get what I was saying.

[nsrammstein]

then all attention will be focused on Canada's border and nothing else, but so far that hasn't happend. I'm sure there are some stats around that more people have entered illegally from Mexico than Canada, so that's where the problem lies and that's where the attention is being focused.

Put yourself in the shoes of a terrorist would you risk coming in through the southern border where its 110+ degrees, plus not enough water, plus border patrol agents and helicopters or would you rather sneak in through the un-protected, cool, and green canadian border?

[E20]

Put yourself in the shoes of a terrorist would you risk coming in through the southern border where its 110+ degrees, plus not enough water, plus border patrol agents and helicopters or would you rather sneak in through the un-protected, cool, and green canadian border?
Has that happend? I'm not saying that that has no chance of happening, but until it does the US government will not care about Canada's border.

[nsrammstein]

Has that happend? I'm not saying that has happend, but until it does the US government will not care about Canada's border.

So then why is the government only worrying about the southern border? I haven't heard of terrorists sneaking in through there. Because obviously it takes a terrorist attack to focus on the canadian border but it takes hard working people coming here to work to focus on the southern border, nice double standard.

[peewee's lovechild]

Has that happend? I'm not saying that that has no chance of happening, but until it does the US government will not care about Canada's border.

Yes it has!!

After 9/11 they caught a Middle Eastern native in Seattle. He was planning to blow up the Space Needle. He was caught in the U.S. In Seattle, Washington.

Where did he come in from??

Canada.

[E20]

Yes it has!!

After 9/11 they caught a Middle Eastern native in Seattle. He was planning to blow up the Space Needle. He was caught in the U.S. In Seattle, Washington.

Where did he come in from??

Canada.
It must have gone unmentioned, because I didn't hear a thing about it. If it was RIGHT after 9-11, then maybe it wasn't given as much coverage, because they covered 9-11 for like a month straight, non-stop. Also, I don't think border/immigration issues were rampant back then as it is today.

[E20]

So then why is the government only worrying about the southern border? I haven't heard of terrorists sneaking in through there. Because obviously it takes a terrorist attack to focus on the canadian border but it takes hard working people coming here to work to focus on the southern border, nice double standard.
The problem is illegal immigrants moreso than terrorists and most illegals are coming from down south.

[peewee's lovechild]

It must have gone unmentioned, because I didn't hear a thing about it. If it was RIGHT after 9-11, then maybe it wasn't given as much coverage, because they covered 9-11 for like a month straight, non-stop. Also, I don't think border/immigration issues were rampant back then as it is today.

First of all, it was all over the news. Once again, it may be because you were too young at the time.

Secondly, this border/immigration issue is only important because we have a big election comming up. This issue will die when the election is over.

[peewee's lovechild]

The problem is illegal immigrants moreso than terrorists and most illegals are coming from down south.

:lol

And, illegal imigrants pose a greater danger/threat than terrorists.

That's just too funny.

You should go on a comedy tour.

[E20]

First of all, it was all over the news. Once again, it may be because you were too young at the time.

Secondly, this border/immigration issue is only important because we have a big election comming up. This issue will die when the election is over.
I was 12-13 and I didn't even know WTH happend during 9-11. :lol

[E20]

:lol

And, illegal imigrants pose a greater danger/threat than terrorists.

That's just too funny.

You should go on a comedy tour.
When you're talking about immigration, I don't include terrorists in the discussion, because that's a whole another discussion -- Terrorsim. You wanna stop and halt the traffick of people coming in here illegally which is what is happening down south, not up north.


I never said Immigrants > Terrorists in terms of danger.

[nsrammstein]

So Hard working illegals pose a greater threat than a member of al-qaeda? :lol

If we are going to put up a wall it should be put up on both borders

[j-6]

First of all, it was all over the news. Once again, it may be because you were too young at the time.

Secondly, this border/immigration issue is only important because we have a big election comming up. This issue will die when the election is over.

The Space Needle plot was before 9/11. It was a Y2K thing - Seattle cancelled their public millennium celebration over it.

I'm pretty sure they busted the guys on a ferryboat border crossing from Canada, too.

[peewee's lovechild]

The Space Needle plot was before 9/11. It was a Y2K thing - Seattle cancelled their public millennium celebration over it.

I'm pretty sure they busted the guys on a ferryboat border crossing from Canada, too.

You are right my friend.
I'm still working on a hang over.

But, I remeber them arresting one of the principal agents somewhere near Seattle.

[Phenomanul]

Let's not forget that the Radical Islam Cell that was on the verge of staging a fertilizer bomb threat also called Canada their home...

This was last year or early this year can't remember when.... The fact remains that when in comes to terrorist concerns the northern border is primed to be the bigger risk. The Narcs run their business on the southern border.