top PG of all time

[romain.star]

Since my knowledge of the History of this game is not as exhaustive as some of you, i'd like to know what are your top 10 PG ever.

Sorry if this thread appears to be quite boooring and / or useless for some of you... just ignore it then

[Mitch Cumsteen]

1. Magic
2. Isiah
3. Stockton
4. Beno
5. Kidd
6. Payton
7. Nash
8. Cousy
9. Cheeks
10. Hardaway

[Doctor J]

Well, my top PGs of all time are:

(10) Gus Williams
(9) Maurice Cheeks
(8) Gary Payton
(7) Nate Archibald
(6) Jason Kidd
(5) Bob Cousy
(4) Isiah Thomas
(3) Steve Nash
(2) John Stockton
(1) Magic Johnson

I hope this helps!

[MavericksDynasty]

1) Jason Kidd
2) Steve Nash
3) Derek Harper
4) Sam Cassell
5) Jason Terry
6) Devin Harris
7) Brad Davis
8) Jose Juan-Barea
9) Mike Iuzzolino
10) Howard Eisley

[resistanze]

1) Magic
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Isiah Thomas
4) Jason Kidd
5) John Stockton
6) Bob Cousy
7) Tiny Archibald
8) Gary Payton
9) Walt Frazier
10) Lenny Wilkens/Steve Nash

[BobcatsDynasty]

1. Raymond Felton
2. Adam Morrison running point
3. the rest are flukes

[romain.star]

1. Magic
2. Isiah
3. Stockton
4. Beno
5. Kidd
6. Payton
7. Nash
8. Cousy
9. Cheeks
10. Hardaway


are you talking about Tim Hardaway at 10th???

[Findog]

are you talking about Tim Hardaway at 10th???

If we cast aside longevity, Penny in his prime?

[romain.star]

IMO Penny could be up there with the greatest....

[Reggie Miller]

1) Magic
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Isiah Thomas
4) Jason Kidd
5) John Stockton
6) Bob Cousy
7) Tiny Archibald
8) Gary Payton
9) Walt Frazier
10) Lenny Wilkens/Steve Nash


Statistically, Robertson should be first or second on any list. There's really no comparison. I understand that few, if any, of us ever saw the Big O play, but any list without him would have to be entirely subjective.

I have also seen Robertson listed as a shooting guard, which may be part of the problem. My understanding is that he was always the point guard with Cincinnatti. I'm not sure about his time with the Bucks.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

are you talking about Tim Hardaway at 10th???
I'm definitely talking about Tim Hardaway. #12 all-time in assists, and averaged over 17 and 8 for his career -- and those numbers are brought down by his last 3-4 years when he was a shell of his former self. And he was the owner of the sickest crossover in NBA history. And a homophobe!!!

[Mitch Cumsteen]

I have also seen Robertson listed as a shooting guard, which may be part of the problem. My understanding is that he was always the point guard with Cincinnatti. I'm not sure about his time with the Bucks. I always considered him a shooting guard. Same with Walt Frazier. Same with Lenny Wilkens.

[jacobdrj]

I just had this discussion with someone...
The fact is, while the other positions are not up for that much debate, aside from a little bit of personal taste and bias, the PG position remained something we couldn't even start discussing.

I have never seen most of the great PG's play. Another issue is that of all the positions, the PG's could arguably have played in any era, as size and athleticism is usually not an issue.

I pointed out, first, that Magic has 5 titles, but played with the most prolific scorer in NBA history (so far). I also pointed out that that prolific scorer never won without one of the arguably, top 2 pg's in history (Magic and Oscar). Then I pointed out the top 2 assist-men of all time, Stockton and Mark Jackson. Jackson was no super-guard, he just lasted forever. But Stockton was savvy, had a little clutch in him, was a true leader, and made good decisions. He also had the 2nd most prolific scorer of all time on his team in Karl.

People also shouldn't forget that Avery Johnson is the only PG to average 7 APG to win a title after the Magic Johnson era. Only the PF Scottie Pippen matched that.

Isiah Thomas was a prototype for modern NBA PG's.

Kidd is a truly amazing specimen.

Cousy was probably pretty good, I mean he won a bunch of titles, but had a bunch of talent on that team...

However, I don't see either Hardaway on that list. Nor do I see Mark Jackson, or Gary Payton. I would put Nash ahead of Payton in a heartbeat. What has Gary done? I didn't even know who he was until I saw a Best Damn commercial calling him a human trash can, and I WATCHED the 1996 NBA Finals.

[romain.star]

I'm definitely talking about Tim Hardaway. #12 all-time in assists, and averaged over 17 and 8 for his career -- and those numbers are brought down by his last 3-4 years when he was a shell of his former self. And he was the owner of the sickest crossover in NBA history. And a homophobe!!!


i used to love the player but still i'd rank Parker over him now.... and being a homophobe is not helping IMO

[Findog]

I would put Nash ahead of Payton in a heartbeat. What has Gary done? I didn't even know who he was until I saw a Best Damn commercial calling him a human trash can, and I WATCHED the 1996 NBA Finals.

He's done quite a bit. All-Star caliber at BOTH ends of the floor in his prime. I'd definitely take prime Payton over Nash.

[phxspurfan]

1. Magic
2. Isiah
3. Stockton
4. Robertson
5. Kidd
6. Payton
7. Nash
8. Cousy
9. Cheeks
10. Hardaway


i used to love the player (Hardaway) but still i'd rank Parker over him now


Neither Tim Hardaway nor Tony Parker are anywhere near the top 10 PGs of all time. Saying TP is near this list is like saying Ron Harper is up at #10 because he won like 4 titles and was a good piece on two championship dynasties. Ron won because of MJ and Shaq, and Tony won because of TD.

Doesn't anybody remember the series with the Suns when Marbury went off on him? Or when J.Kidd did the same in the '03 Finals? Or even when Chauncey Billups did it in '05 and regular season '06. The guy is a no-talent ass clown.



(Just kidding about the no-talent part)


But he deserves to be, at best, #15 on a list like this. Guys like Magic, Kidd and Nash are in the stratosphere compared to Parker. IMO, so is Gary Payton, because he not only had a comparable inside game, but also had all-league defense and clutch shooting his whole career (not just after the team got him his own shooting coach, a la TP).

[monosylab1k]

I WATCHED the 1996 NBA Finals.
apparently you didn't watch any other basketball that season.

Gary Payton in his prime was a no brainer top 10 PG of all time.

[MrChug]

1. Magic
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Isaiah Thomas
5. Jason Kidd
6. Steve Nash
7. Clyde Frazier
8. Bob Cousy
9. Mark Jackson
10. Kevin Johnson (g@y)/Tim Hardaway (h0m0phobe)...ironic that they were basically the same player :oops

[Mitch Cumsteen]

i used to love the player but still i'd rank Parker over him now.... and being a homophobe is not helping IMO

Clearly, the ridiculous homophobe comments are not helping his rep, but he was better than Parker.

Look at Hardaway's numbers:
1990 14.7 & 8.7
1991 22.9 & 9.7
1992 23.4 & 10.0
1993 21.5 & 10.6
1994 missed season with injury
1995 20.1 & 9.3
1996 15.2 & 8.0
1997 20.3 & 8.6
1998 18.9 & 8.3
1999 17.4 & 7.3

Parker has never averaged more than 6.1 assists in a season and his highest scoring average was 18.9. Plus, Parker is about 1/10th as clutch as Hardaway was. Tim Hardaway was a beast, and one of the most underrated players of the last 20 years.

[MrChug]

IMO Penny could be up there with the greatest....

There was a time when Penny was considered the best player in the league...and that's WITH Michael playing! I hated to agree, but that guy was just SICK in his prime.

[romain.star]

Neither Tim Hardaway nor Tony Parker are anywhere near the top 10 PGs of all time. Saying TP is near this list is like saying Ron Harper is up at #10 because he won like 4 titles and was a good piece on two championship dynasties. Ron won because of MJ and Shaq, and Tony won because of TD.

Doesn't anybody remember the series with the Suns when Marbury went off on him? Or when J.Kidd did the same in the '03 Finals? Or even when Chauncey Billups did it in '05 and regular season '06. The guy is a no-talent ass clown.



(Just kidding about the no-talent part)


But he deserves to be, at best, #15 on a list like this. Guys like Magic, Kidd and Nash are in the stratosphere compared to Parker. IMO, so is Gary Payton, because he not only had a comparable inside game, but also had all-league defense and clutch shooting his whole career (not just after the team got him his own shooting coach, a la TP).



never said Tony was part of a top 10 PG list... but if Tim Hardaway is part of it... than... Beno is an allstar

[jacobdrj]

apparently you didn't watch any other basketball that season.

Gary Payton in his prime was a no brainer top 10 PG of all time.
Very astute... you are correct, the 1996 NBA Finals was my first exposure to NBA basketball.

However, the 1996 WCF must have been Mr. Payton's peak, because I don't remember ever hearing from him again until he became a Laker, and I didn't quite understand the big deal about it... I was more enamored with Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, and Sam Perkins than I was with Payton. Oh, and he resurfaced in 2006 when he hit a wide open 3 in the ECF...

[Solid D]

You can't really tell much from lists, in my opinion.

Magic Johnson was the best so far with his all-around game, competitiveness and flair for entertainment at the same time. No one like him. Actually, Michael Jordan is the only player in his class but Michael was definitely a score-first guard.

It's very difficult to rank them because of different eras and styles in those eras.
Bob Cousy, Slater Martin and Guy Rodgers were the best of the early NBA. Martin won 5 championships. 4 rings were with Minneapolis with Mikan but he was a great little playmaker, regardless of where he played.

Oscar Robertson of the 60s and early 70s was Mr. Triple Double. Walt Frazier was a step below O. If Earl Monroe was on TV, I was there. He was a magician with the ball and clearly the most exciting player in the league until Maravich and Tiny Archibald hit the scene. (Maravich wasn't a PG but he was exciting to watch and you didn't notice the other players much when he was on the court).

Stockton is probably the best example of a pure PG. He rates right up there near the top and he was the best assists man all-time...period.

Isaiah Thomas, Gary Payton and Kevin Johnson are all to be mentioned in the next tier. They could play at both ends with a leaning toward scoring first. Payton was the best defender of those three, of course.

J-Kidd is generally considered the best PG over the past decade although his shooting percentage has been a bit of an issue for him. He is the closest thing there is to the Big O in the "balance" department. He's today's Mr. Triple Double. Steve Nash has been right there with Jason offensively, if not ahead of him over the past 4 seasons. Steve's weakness, as we all know, is when he doesn't have the ball and is playing D.

Tony Parker may be the next to break into the top 10 or 12 scoring PGs of all time. He's positioned himself after the past 2 seasons. Playing in the Spurs' system and considering his style, he will never get high assist totals.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

never said Tony was part of a top 10 PG list... but if Tim Hardaway is part of it... than... Beno is an allstar
For the record, I do have Beno at #4 on my list.

[ArgSpursFan]

two questions:
Wasn´t Jerry west a PG?I think he was.(If so he should be on that list)
another question
What about Mark Price?I know His Injuries didnt make him play all He could´ve have too,but still a heck of a PG.

[monosylab1k]

Very astute... you are correct, the 1996 NBA Finals was my first exposure to NBA basketball.

However, the 1996 WCF must have been Mr. Payton's peak, because I don't remember ever hearing from him again until he became a Laker, and I didn't quite understand the big deal about it... I was more enamored with Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, and Sam Perkins than I was with Payton. Oh, and he resurfaced in 2006 when he hit a wide open 3 in the ECF...

I guess it's tough for a Seattle Sonic to get some media exposure. Unless of course he's got Bruce Bowen's foot planted in his back.

[romain.star]

Clearly, the ridiculous homophobe comments are not helping his rep, but he was better than Parker.

Look at Hardaway's numbers:
1990 14.7 & 8.7
1991 22.9 & 9.7
1992 23.4 & 10.0
1993 21.5 & 10.6
1994 missed season with injury
1995 20.1 & 9.3
1996 15.2 & 8.0
1997 20.3 & 8.6
1998 18.9 & 8.3
1999 17.4 & 7.3

Parker has never averaged more than 6.1 assists in a season and his highest scoring average was 18.9. Plus, Parker is about 1/10th as clutch as Hardaway was. Tim Hardaway was a beast, and one of the most underrated players of the last 20 years.

but being ranked 10th best PG ever makes him overrated

[monosylab1k]

What about Mark Price?I know His Injuries didnt make him play all He could´ve have too,but still a heck of a PG.

In his prime, Mark Price was Nash before Nash. His prime didn't last very long though.

[phxspurfan]

two questions:
Wasn´t Jerry west a PG?I think he was.(If so he should be on that list)
another question
What about Mark Price?I know His Injuries didnt make him play all He could´ve have too,but still a heck of a PG.


Mark Price (along with Steve Kerr) should be considered on the all-time great shooter's list, but as a floor general with these other PGs, he comes up short. This may have been due to MJ and their inability to get past the Bulls when it counted.

[romain.star]

For the record, I do have Beno at #4 on my list.


then... it makes sense....

[monosylab1k]

floor general with these other PGs, he comes up short.

in his 3-4 year prime, Price was a great floor general. he just got hurt too much.

[jacobdrj]

Bob Hurley anyone?

[mardigan]

Scott Skiles=g.o.a.t.

[monosylab1k]

John Paxson FTW

[monosylab1k]

Terrell Brandon was no top 10-er, but he popped into my mind for whatever reason. he was solid for a few years.

[MrChug]

I agree with all of you about the greatness of Jerry West and Pete Maravich...but neither of them were PG's.

[MrChug]

My hatred for GP keeps him out of my top 10. Scru it...it's MY list.

[JMarkJohns]

1. Magic Johnson
2. Isiah Thomas
3. John Stockton
4. Bob Cousy
5. Nate Archibald
6. Jason Kidd
7. Gary Payton
8. Steve Nash
9. Kevin Johnson
10. Lenny Wilkens

Before anyone gets pissy with me about the inclusion of Kevin Johnson, know that he has higher career averages at 18 ppg, 9 apg, 49% FG than does Wilkens, Nash, Payton and is better in PPG and FG% than Kidd, and is 0.1 assists behind Kidd for a career average.

Remember that KJ played just five seasons before needing knee surgery, something that wasn't as easy to come back from then as it is today. Note that before the surgery, KJ averaged 21 ppg, 11 apg, 51% FG for four seasons, being named, despite playing in an era of great PGs like Magic, Stockton, Payton and even Mark Price and Tim Hardaway for a time, to All-NBA third team twice, and All-NBA second team once.

Even after his first knee surgery (and he had two more, BTW), KJ averaged 17 ppg, 8 apg, 49% FG.

Beyond his rookie season, a Kevin Johnson led team never failed to make the playoffs, advancing to the Western Conference Finals, defeating the Los Angeles Lakers along the way, in 1989-90 and to the NBA Finals in 92-93.

His assist/turnover ratio of 2.97/1 is higher than Wilkens (2.19/1), Payton (2.95/1), Kidd (2.84/1), *Archibald (2.60/1), Thomas (2.46/1) and Magic (2.89/1).

Note, one cannot figure a A/TO ratio for Cousy, nor a completely accurate one for Archibald, as before 1977-78, turnovers were not tracked statistically. For Archibald, I took his post 77-78 turnovers, added them, then divided by said number of years to come up with an averaged figure of 187 TOs per season, then in his seven prior seasons with no statistical figures for turnovers, I used said average, which, when added with the known turnover figures and divided by his total years played, gave me the ratio above.

There are plenty of PGs who deserve to be on the list. Cheeks is a great choice as well.

But few PGs were as dangerous, even after injury, as KJ was, and fewer still when he was healthy.

Chick Hearn, legendary Lakers broadcaster once said, "Magic and KJ, two of the greatest PGs to ever play this game."

That's high praise, and something completely backed up by the stats.

21-11-50% pre-injury, 17-8-49% post-injury.

As I said, that 17-8-49% is better than half the guards career averages on this list.

[Findog]

I agree with all of you about the greatness of Jerry West and Pete Maravich...but neither of them were PG's.

I believe he was officially listed at PG. He was the primary ballhandler for his teams. He just happened to have a shoot first, second and last mentality.

[jacobdrj]

That is some impressive number crunching JMark...

[monosylab1k]

Before anyone gets pissy with me about the inclusion of Kevin Johnson
they ought not. Kevin Johnson was absolute greatness. His top 10 status might be debatable but they guy deserves mention. In his prime he was awesome and played with incredible heart.

[JMarkJohns]

they ought not. Kevin Johnson was absolute greatness. His top 10 status might be debatable but they guy deserves mention. In his prime he was awesome and played with incredible heart.

Yeah. It's so damn hard to say just how good he, the Hardaways and very good, nearly great players like Mark Price would have been if injuries hadn't stripped them of seasons in their prime, or lengthy careers.

I've always maintained, even in the face of Nash's two MVPs, but KJ was the best PG to ever play for the Suns. And yes, I'm including Kidd as well.

He could score whenever he wanted. Something Kidd couldn't do and something Nash hates to do. He could dominate a game with just his passing, because opponants were always in limbo because of his ability to shoot and score. He had one of the quickest first steps, and, as shown by the A/TO ratio, was efficient year after year with running an offense.

Kidd could never shoot, never score, and never lead because of it the way KJ could/did. The Kidd-led Suns never won a playoff series. The only playoff series won by Phoenix during Kidd's tenure was when Kidd was out with a broken ankle in 2000, and KJ came out of retirement to lead the Suns in a 3-1 defeat of the Duncan-less Spurs. Kidd returned for the Lakers series, and Phoenix was promtly offed 4-1.

KJ's pre-injury prime was as good as anyone's playing at the time, save for maybe Magic. He had a few seasons were he was scoring 23 ppg, and dishing out 11/12 apg while shooting over 50% from the field. Those are crazy numbers to wrap you mind around for a 6-1, 175 pound PG.

[romain.star]

Kevin Johnson + Jason Kidd + Steve Nash = 0 ring
TP + Avery Johnson = 4 rings



(THANX TD!!)

[Obstructed_View]

1. Stockton
2. Magic
3. Isiah
4. Robertson
5. Cousy
6. Kidd
7. Frazier
8. Archibald
9. Mark Jackson
10. Gary Payton

Guys like Hardaway (tim) and KJ just missed the top ten for me.

[Findog]

The thing about these lists is where do you put a guy like Cousy, who was absolutely the fuckin' balls when he played, but probably would be a scrub at best in today's NBA?

So, in no particular order, my top 8:

Magic
Isiah
Oscar
Payton
Stockton
Kidd
Cousy
Tiny

After that, I don't think you can reach a consensus.

[ShoogarBear]

Those of you who think Oscar Robertson wasn't a point guard: do you understand he was the NBA's all-time assist leader until Magic broke his record?

[JMarkJohns]

Kevin Johnson + Jason Kidd + Steve Nash = 0 ring
TP + Avery Johnson = 4 rings



(THANX TD!!)

Very true. If only Phoenix had two #1 overall and future Hall of Fame pivots down low for them, maybe they'd have four rings as well.

Don't underestimate the amount of luck you Spurs have had in helping to construct these two teams. A ton of great scouting and building has gone on around those two, but netting two #1 overall picks in two years where two legit All-timer type 7-footers were entered is an unbelievable twist of fate.

Congrats for winning. You still have to win them, and San Antonio has, but looking back, the luck to land them goes farther than the genius to surround them.

[JMarkJohns]

Those of you who think Oscar Robertson wasn't a point guard: do you understand he was the NBA's all-time assist leader until Magic broke his record?

Yes, and there were a few years where Wilt was top-3 in apg for a season as well. Didn't make him anymore of a PG.

I understand your point, but most every one agrees that he was a wing, not a PG.

[Obstructed_View]

Those of you who think Oscar Robertson wasn't a point guard: do you understand he was the NBA's all-time assist leader until Magic broke his record?
Just playing devil's advocate here, since I've included him on my list.

By your definition then Lebron James is the Cavs point guard, too.

Robertson was a great passer on a team of guys that could score and was the guy the defense focused on. That means a lot of assists. It doesn't automatically make him a point guard, though. The Lakers actually put Magic out there in the point guard position. If they'd put him in as a power forward, he'd still have the same number of assists.

There's nothing wrong with having him on the list, but the stat doesn't define the position.

[ShoogarBear]

Yes, and there were a few years where Wilt was top-3 in apg for a season as well. Didn't make him anymore of a PG.

I understand your point, but most every one agrees that he was a wing, not a PG.Most everyone? Sure would like to know who that is.

So he wasn't a point guard, and yet when he got traded to the Bucks with Alcindor, they suddenly made him one? Or are you going to say he wasn't the Bucks' point guard, either?

[JMarkJohns]

But if Robsertson is a PG, and I did forget about Frazier, so good call OV, then KJ and Wilkens would be off my list.

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Thomas
4. Stockton
5. Cousy
6. Frazier
7. Archibald
8. Kidd
9. Payton
10. Nash.

with KJ, Wilkens, T.Hardaway, Price and Cheeks rounding out my top-15.

[Solid D]

When West and Gail Goodrich were playing alongside each other in the back court, people didn't really classify a guard as Point Guard, per se. Some coaches may have started using it but it wasn't a common expression in the '60s. There were guards and there were forwards. West actually had great assist numbers later in his career. Most basketball mavens tend to classify Jerry West as a scoring guard (2).

[Obstructed_View]

Most everyone? Sure would like to know who that is.

So he wasn't a point guard, and yet when he got traded to the Bucks with Alcindor, they suddenly made him one? Or are you going to say he wasn't the Bucks' point guard, either?
Since Johnny Mac was the shooting guard for the Bucks, that's exactly what happened, isn't it?

[Findog]

When West and Gail Goodrich were playing alongside each other in the back court, people didn't really classify a guard as Point Guard, per se. Some coaches may have started using it but it wasn't a common expression in the '60s. There were guards and there were forwards. West actually had great assist numbers later in his career. Most basketball mavens tend to classify Jerry West as a scoring guard (2).

My definition of point guard is along the lines of "who brings the ball up the court and who is the primary ballhandler." By that definition, the Pistol is a PG.

[JMarkJohns]

Most everyone? Sure would like to know who that is.

So he wasn't a point guard, and yet when he got traded to the Bucks with Alcindor, they suddenly made him one? Or are you going to say he wasn't the Bucks' point guard, either?

I've just never heard many give him credit as a PG. I've heard the debate that he and Jordan should be battling for all-time SG more than I've heard the debate that he and Magic should be for all-time PG.

As OV said, and much better than my point, assists doesn't make the PG. Look at Frazier. He didn't average but 6.1 apg for his career, but was a HOFer and Finals MVP. But he was a PG.

Jordan once averaged 8.0 for a season. Grant Hill averaged 7/8 for a few seasons as well. Lots of wings have become the defacto generator of offense, but it doesn't make them PGs unless they are inserted at the PG spot.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Rafer Alston
AKA - Skip 2 My Lou

end.of.thread

[Solid D]

Rafer Alston
AKA - Skip 2 My Lou

end.of.thread

Credibility must be regained slowly, over time after that post. :oops

[Oh, Gee!!]

Credibility must be regained slowly, over time after that post. :oops


you're right, Hot Sauce is better

[ShoogarBear]

When West and Gail Goodrich were playing alongside each other in the back court, people didn't really classify a guard as Point Guard, per se. Some coaches may have started using it but it wasn't a common expression in the '60s. There were guards and there were forwards. West actually had great assist numbers later in his career. Most basketball mavens tend to classify Jerry West as a scoring guard (2).That was the other point I meant to make, but forgot. The concept of a point guard as people think of it today is really a 70s creation.

Robertson brought the ball up and made the plays. Was Tiny Archibald not a point guard the year he lead the league in scoring?

[MrChug]

By that logic Michael Jordan AND Scottie Pippen could be on this list. Armstrong, Paxon, Kerr, etc never brought the ball up the court.

[barbacoataco]

Of the Point guards I have seen play (started watching NBA around 1983-1984)

1. Magic Johnson
2. Isiah Thomas
3. John Stockton
3. Gary Payton
4. Penny Hardaway (at his best)
5. Jason Kidd

I can't compare players of the past. Since we didn't see them play, were not even sure which ones were true point guards. Cousy had a lot of success, and my dad always said that the "big O" was the best ever.

Isiah Thomas was a winner, and I would take him over anyone but Magic. Gary Payton had the awesome defense, and I value defense. That is why Steve Nash isn't on this list. IMO he is the most overrated player EVER in the NBA. Gaudy shooting percentages don't make up for his complete lack of defensive ability.

[Findog]

By that logic Michael Jordan AND Scottie Pippen could be on this list. Armstrong, Paxon, Kerr, etc never brought the ball up the court.

Exception to the rule. Most point guards bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense in the halfcourt set.

[Oh, Gee!!]

The Professor owns both their asses


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f312/Tonito44/ThatsRacist.gif

[SRJ]

01 Oscar Robertson
02 Magic Johnson
03 John Stockton
04 Isiah Thomas
05 Gary Payton
06 Jason Kidd
07 Steve Nash
08 Walt Frazier
09 Kevin Johnson
10 Maurice Cheeks

[phxspurfan]

is it just me or is everyone here forgetting James White!

[Reggie Miller]

After scanning the usual internet suspects (wikipedia, basketball reference, etc.), it looks like Robertson has been listed at every position except center at one point or another in his career. The Big O was 6'5" back when that meant something, dad gummit!

Here's a question for you... If Jordan was the greatest player ever, then where does Robertson, who has comparable overall stats, rate?

Quick and crude comparison:

Robertson = 25.7 PPG, 9.5 APG, 7.5 RPG*
Jordan = 30.1 PPG, 5.3 APG, 6.2 RPG, 2.35 SPG, 0.83 BPG

* Steals and blocks were not kept officially until Robertson's last season. Anecdotal evidence suggests that Robertson would also have had slightly better numbers than Jordan in these two categories during their respective primes.

I guess this is sort of off-topic, but it generally aggravates me the way most people uncritically accept that Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time. Very good, perhaps even better, arguments can be made for Robertson or Chamberlain.

[SRJ]

I go back and forth on Jordan and Chamberlain as #1 and #2; I think Jordan was a bit better than Oscar, largely because I don't think Oscar would have dominated to the same extent had he played from 1984-2003 (with some intermittent retirements thrown in).

But I begin from the premise that athletic ability has been on a steady increase in professional athletes over the decades (for whatever reason cough*Bonds*cough). If one isn't inclined to believe that, then Oscar should be more or less the same player as MJ.

I feel the same way about Wilt. Had he come up in the mid-eighties, his career averages would probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 26 PPG, 12 RPG, 3 BPG. Wilt wouldn't have scored 100 points in a game in a league with Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and Ewing, etc.

[Findog]

After scanning the usual internet suspects (wikipedia, basketball reference, etc.), it looks like Robertson has been listed at every position except center at one point or another in his career. The Big O was 6'5" back when that meant something, dad gummit!

Here's a question for you... If Jordan was the greatest player ever, then where does Robertson, who has comparable overall stats, rate?

Quick and crude comparison:

Robertson = 25.7 PPG, 9.5 APG, 7.5 RPG*
Jordan = 30.1 PPG, 5.3 APG, 6.2 RPG, 2.35 SPG, 0.83 BPG

* Steals and blocks were not kept officially until Robertson's last season. Anecdotal evidence suggests that Robertson would also have had slightly better numbers than Jordan in these two categories during their respective primes.

I guess this is sort of off-topic, but it generally aggravates me the way most people uncritically accept that Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time. Very good, perhaps even better, arguments can be made for Robertson or Chamberlain.

Jordan played in the NBA's golden era of popularity, which he helped bring about. He also won titles in his last six full seasons, so there was definitely a Beatlemania phenomenon going on with the Bulls. A lot of non-basketball fans were drawn to the game because of Jordan. I'm not saying Jordan isn't the best player of all-time, but his unquestioned status as the GOAT has a lot to do with the fact that far more people alive now saw him play as opposed to the Big O and Wilt.

[ShoogarBear]

I think Jordan gets the edge because Robertson had such a huge physical advantage over his opposition. Jordan had an advantage, too, but there were plenty of guys in the league who approached him athletically.

Having siad that, Robertson is one of only a few of the great players from the 60s who I think would have been great in any era. (Chamberlain, Baylor, West.)

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Most people will argue that Robertson's stats were blown out of proportion because of the way the games were played back then -- they were usually in the 120s.

Also, you can't argue about the rings. The Big O won one title... and it was when he played with Kareem in Milwaukee. He wasn't even the best player on the only championship team he played on. You can't say that about Jordan.

[Reggie Miller]

Jordan played in the NBA's golden era of popularity, which he helped bring about. He also won titles in his last six full seasons, so there was definitely a Beatlemania phenomenon going on with the Bulls. A lot of non-basketball fans were drawn to the game because of Jordan. I'm not saying Jordan isn't the best player of all-time, but his unquestioned status as the GOAT has a lot to do with the fact that far more people alive now saw him play as opposed to the Big O and Wilt.

I can't argue with that, and I can't really argue that anyone who thinks that Jordan is the GOAT is dead wrong. However, I think that too many people accept Jordan as the GOAT completely uncritically (as if it were self-evident).

Some of this is regionalism also. I have noticed that Robertson is more regarded in Indiana (high school) and Ohio (college) than elsewhere.

[ShoogarBear]

Most people will argue that Robertson's stats were blown out of proportion because of the way the games were played back then -- they were usually in the 120s.

Also, you can't argue about the rings. The Big O won one title... and it was when he played with Kareem in Milwaukee. He wasn't even the best player on the only championship team he played on. You can't say that about Jordan.A reasonable criticism.

Now, name one person Robertson played with in Cincinnati.

If you're good, you might be able to name 2 or 3.

[Findog]

A reasonable criticism.

Now, name one person Robertson played with in Cincinnati.

If you're good, you might be able to name 2 or 3.

Jerry Lucas? Sam Lacey?

[YODA]

01 Oscar Robertson
02 Magic Johnson
03 John Stockton
04 Isiah Thomas
05 Gary Payton
06 Jason Kidd
07 Steve Nash
08 Walt Frazier
09 Kevin Johnson
10 Maurice Cheeks

This list sums it up right for me in the correct order. Magic and Oscar are definitly 1-2, while 3,4,5,6,7 could all be interchangible. Im not to sure about cheeks making in the top `10, but its workible.
Nice to see two all time players in the game at thew present time(nash, kidd).
Best overall general has to go to magic, if you ever saw him run point, you could see him get players in the right positions. This guy was huge and avgerage a ton of assists as a PG.

I used to love to watch the assist board as Magic and Stockton would lead each year anywhere from 12-15 assists a game. Just amazing. I didnt know how amazing it was till I see how seldom we see any point gaurd avg more then 7 assists a game these days.

I was also surprised top see how few people had Kevin Johnson on their lists. I guess they never saw him play. Guy was amazing.


Yoda
PS. Im a chess players too
also a Poker player.

Do or do not. there is no try

[Mitch Cumsteen]

A reasonable criticism.

Now, name one person Robertson played with in Cincinnati.

If you're good, you might be able to name 2 or 3.
I cheated and looked on basketball reference.com.

Norm Van Lier, one of the Van Arsdale brothers, and player-coach Bob Cousy at the very end, Jerry Lucas, and Wayne Embry on their best team. That team with Embry and Lucas had to be pretty damn good. Lucas is a hall of famer and Embry was an all star several times.

[Real Tomato Ketchup]

Can't believe (unless I missed it) that no one has mentioned Dennis Johnson. His prime was a little before my time, but from what I heard right after he passed away he was tough as nails.

[bdictjames]

John Stockton. All-time leader in assists, which is basically what a PG is supposed to do.

[Reggie Miller]

I cheated and looked on basketball reference.com.

Norm Van Lier, one of the Van Arsdale brothers, and player-coach Bob Cousy at the very end, Jerry Lucas, and Wayne Embry on their best team. That team with Embry and Lucas had to be pretty damn good. Lucas is a hall of famer and Embry was an all star several times.

Oscar Robertson was the first known diagnosed case of Barkely/Malone Syndrome. Cincinatti never could get past those great Celtics teams of the era. Cincinatti lost to them several years in a row in the playoffs.

[Obstructed_View]

I used to love to watch the assist board as Magic and Stockton would lead each year anywhere from 12-15 assists a game. Just amazing. I didnt know how amazing it was till I see how seldom we see any point gaurd avg more then 7 assists a game these days.
Mark Jackson was routinely on that list as well.

[resistanze]

John Stockton. All-time leader in assists, which is basically what a PG is supposed to do.
Why not go by APG in that case?

[wildbill2u]

Everyone talks about the athleticism and miraculous skills of the modern era player--and they're right--but there were some standout players who had those skills in previous eras. You could say they helped invent the game--and some of the plays-- we see today.

A case in point. I'm old enough that I started watching the NBA in the 50s and saw Cousy play. He was a unbelievable dribbler a la Marques Haynes (if you don't know that reference deduct 10 points) and the first player to drive to the basket while passing the ball around his body and laying up with the opposite hand. And his deadeye behind the back passes--in an era where the two-handed pass was demanded by many coaches--made all us kids want to try them too.

How many of you realize the lane was widened to its current width because of the physical dominance and athletic ability of Wilt Chamberlain?

That's why they are remembered and usually wind up on those top 50 lists. I suppose their fame will fade as fewer people are around to explain their deserving status as 'top' players.

[SRJ]

About Mark Jackson, since his name finally came up.

Jax was one of my favorite players. I didn't put him on my list because he was slow as could be, a defensive no-show. But if this was a list of accurate passers, Jax was as good as it got. I don't know that Magic, Stockton, or Kidd were any better at getting the ball to the right guys than Jax was. IMO he was as good at delivering the ball as anyone else.

[cherylsteele]

two questions:
Wasn´t Jerry west a PG?I think he was.(If so he should be on that list)
another question
What about Mark Price?I know His Injuries didnt make him play all He could´ve have too,but still a heck of a PG.
You could almost include Johnny Moore. His career was cut short by illness, but he was a top PG in his prime as well. He has a career assist avg of 7.4. He may have not been top ten but could have wound up being honorable mention.

[RC's Boss]

PONY FUCKIN' TARKER BITCHES :toast :smokin