Best SF ever? May as well join in.

[RC's Boss]

I think Larry Legend has this hands down. Feedback, rebuttal?

[thispego]

those are some big backyards

[mardigan]

Bird
Dr J
Nique
Bernard King
Pippen

[jdaveah]

Dr. J should be in the conversation

[RC's Boss]

those are some big backyards
I like acreage!

[RC's Boss]

Dr. J should be in the conversation
I would rank him 2nd w/ Pippen 3rd b/c his defense was ridiculous. Can't go into the era b4 Dr. J too much b/c I was born in '72. Weren't West and Barry SF's also?

[RC's Boss]

No one do a SG or PF thread, we all know who the greatest are at those positions.

[SRJ]

01 Larry Bird
02 Julius Erving
03 Scottie Pippen
04 Rick Barry
05 Shawn Marion
06 Dominique Wilkins
07 Alex English
08 Adrian Dantley
09 Bernard King
10 Mark Aguirre

[Findog]

01 Larry Bird
02 Julius Erving
03 Scottie Pippen
04 Rick Barry
05 Shawn Marion
06 Dominique Wilkins
07 Alex English
08 Adrian Dantley
09 Bernard King
10 Mark Aguirre

lmao at marion!

[SRJ]

Marion's fucking awesome. He's a very good defender and a great rebounder, better than a lot of PFs and Cs.

He's not a guy you're gonna run an offense through, and that shows up in playoff series pretty often, but you're gonna have a hard time finding a better all-around SF than him.

His body of work>>>>>a couple of playoff series

[jdaveah]

Marion is not top 10, I'd be shocked if even Phoenix fans felt that way. Good call on Bernard King, he could fill it up like very few else ever have.

[mardigan]

Marion's fucking awesome. He's a very good defender and a great rebounder, better than a lot of PFs and Cs.

He's not a guy you're gonna run an offense through, and that shows up in playoff series pretty often, but you're gonna have a hard time finding a better all-around SF than him.

His body of work>>>>>a couple of playoff series
Yea man, but to put him in front of guys like Nique and King is a little ridiculous.
I dont even think hes better than Grant Hill in his prime

[JMarkJohns]

If Marion is top-10, it's towards the bottom half. I think SRJ is correct on many things, but I want my SF to both have a consistant jumper out to range and be able to create his own shot, whether via the post, or off the dribble. Marion really has/can do neither.

I think he's probably the best rebounding SF of all time, especially when you factor in his 6-7, 220 pound frame, but I am not sure if it and his stat-stuffing defense is enough to make up for his dependant offense.

I'd probably say he has a range of 8 as the highest, to a more realistic 10-to-12 range.

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Bernard King
5. Rick Barry
6. Dominique Wilkins
7. James Worthy
8. Grant Hill
9. Alex English
10. Adrian Dantley

Can't believe Worthy hasn't been mentioned yet. Not a top-fiver, but easily should be in the top-10. Wilkins gets a bump down because of his lack rebounding and defense, while Hill could have been higher had he not been injured. The latter two could very well be higher.

In my book, there's a top-3, then everyone else is throw 'em at a wall and see who sticks. Lots of very, very good ones, but SF isn't a position with too much history of greatness.

[SRJ]

In my book, there's a top-3, then everyone else is throw 'em at a wall and see who sticks. Lots of very, very good ones, but SF isn't a position with too much history of greatness.

This is exactly why I forgot Worthy. There were so many very good SF in the 1980's, I forgot him when I was thinking of guys from his era. Of course, Worthy had it a little easier than most of his contemporaries since he played with Magic and Kareem.

Here's my revamped list. Aguirre is cut:

01 Larry Bird
02 Julius Erving
03 Scottie Pippen
04 Rick Barry
05 Shawn Marion
06 Dominique Wilkins
07 James Worthy
08 Alex English
09 Adrian Dantley
10 Bernard King

And I guess I favor Marion because I like my SF to be versatile. The top half of my list are guys who do many things, while the bottom half are basically scorers.

[Findog]

Lots of very, very good ones, but SF isn't a position with too much history of greatness.

Yeah, I'm not even going to bother with this list, 3's are like 2's, there's so many good ones and no matter who you come up with, you're omitting guys just as good. One thing I do know is that Marion isn't in the top-10 of all-time.

[mardigan]

King averaged 7 boards, 4 assists, and a steal to go with his 26 point a game average for his career, a little more than just scoring

[The Truth #6]

I think Aguirre was better than Marion.

[RC's Boss]

Marion isn't top 20

[Findog]

I think Aguirre was better than Marion.

Ain't that the truth. He once averaged 29 points a game. He was a slasher that also had a decent outside shot.




http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1386/1030485888_e9c19840d7_o.jpg

[BobcatsDynasty]

1. Adam Morrison
2. Larry Bird
3. the rest are flukes

[MavericksDynasty]

1) Mark Aguirre, Wrath of God (The GOAT)
2) Josh Howard
3) Jamal Mashburn
4) Dale Ellis
5) Jay Vincent at the 3
6) Detlef Schrempf
7) Adrian Griffin
8) Alex English (played one year with the Mavs)
9) Al Wood
10) Christian Laettner

[TDMVPDPOY]

rofmao marion

[Nahtanoj]

Larry Bird.

End of discussion.

[timvp]

Shawn Marion the fifth best SF of all-time? Dude isn't even a top five small forward right now in the NBA (LeBron, Carmelo, McGrady, JHoward and Pierce are all better ... and Carter, Deng, JSmith and Iguodala are right there with him, as well).

He's the third best player on his team. He disappears every year like clockwork in the playoffs. He's a pretty damn good regular season player and puts up good all-around numbers, but to put him in the top five small forwards of all-time is ludicrous. The Spurs have shown that if you guard him, he basically does nothing when it counts.

Marion better than Nique or King? Wow.

[MoSpur]

I would rank Josh Smith up there in the top 10 and maybe even top five because he is only going to get better.

[MavericksDynasty]

I would rank Josh Smith up there in the top 10 and maybe even top five because he is only going to get better.

He and Marvin Williams are both top-10 on the all-time list of Non-Maverick SF's, since guys that have worn the blue and green occupy the first 10 spots.

[SenorSpur]

1) Mark Aguirre, Wrath of God (The GOAT)
2) Josh Howard
3) Jamal Mashburn
4) Dale Ellis
5) Jay Vincent at the 3
6) Detlef Schrempf
7) Adrian Griffin
8) Alex English (played one year with the Mavs)
9) Al Wood
10) Christian Laettner

Loved Mark Acguirre. Scoring, rebounding, FT shooting. Consistent 20+ scorer for many years. Could do it all. Very underrated SF. Would like to see him get more recognition from both the Mavs and the NBA.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Shawn Marion the fifth best SF of all-time? Dude isn't even a top five small forward right now in the NBA (LeBron, Carmelo, McGrady, JHoward and Pierce are all better ... and Carter, Deng, JSmith and Iguodala are right there with him, as well).

He's the third best player on his team. He disappears every year like clockwork in the playoffs. He's a pretty damn good regular season player and puts up good all-around numbers, but to put him in the top five small forwards of all-time is ludicrous. The Spurs have shown that if you guard him, he basically does nothing when it counts.

Marion better than Nique or King? Wow.
What TimVP said. I don't think Shawn Marion makes my top 30. Maybe my top 50. I'm not sure he's even the best to ever play for Phoenix. Walter Davis and Tom Chambers were probably as good or better than Marion. What about Connie Hawkins?

[MrChug]

The dude in the avatar FTW!!! Nah, not the best but of course in MY top 10.

1. Bird :greedy
2. Pippen
3. Dr. J :fro
4. Rick Barry
5. Bernard King :king
6. Nique
7. Havlicek
8. Lebron :bling
9. Alex English
10. Chris Mullin (personal preference so suck it) :pctoss

But honestly top TEN? Mark Aguirre is there, and Rodman played SF early with the Pistons...

[lotr1trekkie]

Based on stats alone Rick Barry was the best small forward of all time. Also the player to lead the NCAA in scoring and rebounding the same year. The only reason Bird was considered a SF was because of Mchale. At 6'9" Bird was really a PF like Malone.

[monosylab1k]

Loved Mark Acguirre. Scoring, rebounding, FT shooting. Consistent 20+ scorer for many years. Could do it all. Very underrated SF. Would like to see him get more recognition from both the Mavs and the NBA.

He needs his number retired, along with Harper and Finley once he retires. And Brad Davis' number needs to be unretired. I'm campaigning for Nick Fazekas to wear 15 next season.

[SenorSpur]

He needs his number retired, along with Harper and Finley once he retires. And Brad Davis' number needs to be unretired. I'm campaigning for Nick Fazekas to wear 15 next season.

Cuban is about as bad as Jerry Jones in virtually ignoring the history and great franchise players that came before his tenure of ownership.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

The only reason Bird was considered a SF was because of Mchale. At 6'9" Bird was really a PF like Malone.Disagree. Bird was not your typical back-to-the basket low post PF. He was more of a wing player and an outside threat. His game was nothing like Karl Malone's game. Malone was a brute who would overpower you, but still had enough speed to get by you or get out on the break. He did have a great medium range jumpshot. Bird was much more of a finesse player who could beat you with the pass or just shoot it in your face from anywhere on the court. Their games were nothing alike.

[monosylab1k]

Cuban is about as bad as Jerry Jones in virtually ignoring the history and great franchise players that came before his tenure of ownership.
Lafrentz will probably get his number retired before Aguirre :lol . it's a shame.

[TDMVPDPOY]

what do you guys think of chris mullin??

[MrChug]

what do you guys think of chris mullin??

Don't you dare ask me that :lol

GOAT

[The Truth #6]

I would possibly put Dr. J and Rick Barry above Pippen. Without Jordan, Pippen just seemed like another All Star and was nowhere near as good. Yet while he was with Jordan he was incredible. In the end, I do think he is slightly overrated.

[MrChug]

At 6'9" Bird was really a PF like Malone.

I always had a theory that Bird was really 6'10". Theres 1000's of clips and pix of him and Magic standing side-by-side and he towered Magic (kinda).

...either that or Magic was 6'7" to 6'8"....

[JamStone]

In a few years, LeBron James should be very much in the discussion. And, when it's all said and done, he could very well be the one. While championships are always part of the discussion, it's obvious that he'll need to win multiple titles to really make an argument against the likes of Larry Bird.

I heard that James Worthy guy was kinda good. I think I only saw his name once in this thread.

The nature of the position of small forward is very much a secondary role and dependent on having a good point guard on offense and talented defensive big man at the other end. It's rare for a small forward to be the best player on a team like Larry Bird and Dr. J and LeBron. But, when it comes to production and fitting the role of what should be expected from a small forward, James Worthy is right up there near the top of the list, even though he was not always the best player on his teams or the main focal point on offense.

[mardigan]

I would possibly put Dr. J and Rick Barry above Pippen. Without Jordan, Pippen just seemed like another All Star and was nowhere near as good. Yet while he was with Jordan he was incredible. In the end, I do think he is slightly overrated.
Your completely undervaluing Pippen.
Jordan never won anything without him and vica versa, and without Jordan he had his greatest season ever, leading the Bulls to a 55-27 record and the 7th game of the second round.
Pippen was one of the best all around players I have ever seen

[ambchang]

Elgin Baylor? Or was he more of a PF?

[SRJ]

Baylor was 6'5". Back then they really didn't make the positional distinctions, but Baylor certainly rebounded like a PF.

And hell, Charles Barkley played PF at 6'5", so why not Baylor?

[Xylus]

Shawn Marion the fifth best SF of all-time? Dude isn't even a top five small forward right now in the NBA (LeBron, Carmelo, McGrady, JHoward and Pierce are all better ... and Carter, Deng, JSmith and Iguodala are right there with him, as well).

He's the third best player on his team. He disappears every year like clockwork in the playoffs. He's a pretty damn good regular season player and puts up good all-around numbers, but to put him in the top five small forwards of all-time is ludicrous. The Spurs have shown that if you guard him, he basically does nothing when it counts.

Marion better than Nique or King? Wow.
I would take Marion over McGrady, JHoward, and Pierce.

Marion is an excellent defender, excellent rebounder, and somehow manages to score 20 points a night even though no plays are run for him. He's not our best scorer, but he doesn't have to be.

[mavs>spurs2]

I would take Marion over McGrady, JHoward, and Pierce.

Marion is an excellent defender, excellent rebounder, and somehow manages to score 20 points a night even though no plays are run for him. He's not our best scorer, but he doesn't have to be.

No, no, and no.

Marion is as overrated as his huge contract.

[ambchang]

I would take Marion over McGrady, JHoward, and Pierce.

Marion is an excellent defender, excellent rebounder, and somehow manages to score 20 points a night even though no plays are run for him. He's not our best scorer, but he doesn't have to be.
Marion is not an excellent defender.
Parker shred him in pieces during this year's series (though admittingly, that was a mismatch), he doesn't even guard Bryant in the Lakers series because Bell was the better perimeter defender. JHo is a way better defender, and Pierce and McGrady can both create on offense.
Marion is the ultimate role player, but there is no way a role player ever cracks any top 10 lists, other than top 10 role players of all time.

[Xylus]

Marion is the ultimate role player, but there is no way a role player ever cracks any top 10 lists, other than top 10 role players of all time.
He is the ultimate role player, which is exactly why I want him on my team. Pierce and McGrady are great offensive players (they're also ballhogs), but they haven't really proven anything. Howard is becoming a better player than Marion, but I don't think he's quite there yet.

By the way, I never said he was in my Top 10 SF, because he isn't. Top 25, maybe.

[daspurs]

Larry BirD

[JMarkJohns]

I'd consider Marion over Carmelo and Pierce, and, depending on the team, maybe over McGrady, but I like Howard much more than Marion as of right now.

For this current Suns team, definately over Carmelo and Pierce, but not over McGrady or Howard, and certainly not LeBron. I'd probably take Manu over him for the Suns as well.

I don't like the lack of defense and rebounding from Anthony, and, despite his scoring, he's not much better a 3-point shooter, and not near the force in the paint. Pierce is tougher, but still more of a perimeter foward, settling for jumpers and threes, but not shooting either at a very good clip. He defends, but not very well anymore, and he tends to dominate the ball.

I do believe a lot of Spurs fans have a flawed notion of Marion because of his play against them. While it's very true that he struggles against the Spurs, and while, unfortunately, it's also true most of those games have come in the playoffs, the notion that Marion struggles terribly during the playoffs is not entirely correct. He's had some fantastic series against the Mavs and Lakers, and played very well against the Grizzlies and Clippers as well.

His career averages are 18.6 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 1.9 spg, 1.3 bpg on 51% FG, 31% 3FG
His playoff averages are 17.1 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 1.5 spg, 1.5 bpg on 46% FG, 34% 3FG

This isn't to say he isn't flawed. He is. This isn't to say he hasn't cost the Suns vs. the Spurs. He has. But I don't believe you can discount all he's achieved, which is significant, just from two or three series.

I'm telling you, don't be surprised if he winds up in the HOF. He's one of the best defenders of his era, though not great on the ball, his help defense is a thing of beauty, and he is one of, if not the best rebounding SF ever. Few have his averages, and when you factor in his stature, 6-7, 225, it's that much more impressive. He's likely to be a career 17/18 ppg player, so when coupled with all his other stats, his All-Star appearances, and his All-NBA appearances, if he keeps it up for another 5/6 years, he'll have some of the most impressive stats at his position. He's got a lot of work to do before such is realistic, but I do think he's got a decent chance if he keeps thigns up.

[SRJ]

Also, in reference to Marion, he's been in the league 9 years. Howard, LeBron, and Melo have only been in for 4. LeBron will definitely finish high on this list; how high remains to be seen.

[RC's Boss]

I would take Marion over McGrady, JHoward, and Pierce.

Marion is an excellent defender, excellent rebounder, and somehow manages to score 20 points a night even though no plays are run for him. He's not our best scorer, but he doesn't have to be.
ALL THE GUYS YOU MENTIONED CAN PLAY IN THE HALF COURT. SOMETHING MARION ISN'T AS GOOD AT. IF THEY WERE THE SAME AGE, I'D TAKE JHO OVER MARION IN A HEARTBEAT. MARION REBOUNDS B/C WHO ELSE IS GOING TO IF HE DOESN'T?????

[RC's Boss]

Marion over Melo?????? while Melo hasn't gotten out of the 1st round, he's clearly better.

[The Truth #6]

Your completely undervaluing Pippen.
Jordan never won anything without him and vica versa, and without Jordan he had his greatest season ever, leading the Bulls to a 55-27 record and the 7th game of the second round.
Pippen was one of the best all around players I have ever seen


I'll give you his greatest season, but wasn't that also the same season he sat out the last play because it went to Toni instead of him? That alone makes me question his legacy to so me degree. What great player gives up like that? I would disagree with the opinion that Jordan couldn't do anything without Pippen. Jordan was clearly the more dominant of the two. Jordan dominated before Pippen arrived. He just didn't have crap to work with during the Doug Collins years. People use that same argument to defend KG, but in Jordan's situation it's actually true.

As for Pippen, except for the 55/27 season without Jordan, I remember him being much less spectacular with Portland and Houston. I don't think I'm undervaluing him. I'm recognizing his accomplishment as Jordan's sidekick, but he was never a clear leader on his own. I would consider him a legendary role player. Rodman, by contrast, dominated no matter where he played. I think Rodman was a better defender. He made every team better. Though he played PF later in his career, I still consider him a SF and I think he should be considered in the top ten. I think his legacy is much closer to Pippen's and perhaps even better.

[RC's Boss]

I'll give you his greatest season, but wasn't that also the same season he sat out the last play because it went to Toni instead of him? That alone makes me question his legacy to so me degree. What great player gives up like that? I would disagree with the opinion that Jordan couldn't do anything without Pippen. Jordan was clearly the more dominant of the two. Jordan dominated before Pippen arrived. He just didn't have crap to work with during the Doug Collins years. People use that same argument to defend KG, but in Jordan's situation it's actually true.

As for Pippen, except for the 55/27 season without Jordan, I remember him being much less spectacular with Portland and Houston. I don't think I'm undervaluing him. I'm recognizing his accomplishment as Jordan's sidekick, but he was never a clear leader on his own. I would consider him a legendary role player. Rodman, by contrast, dominated no matter where he played. I think Rodman was a better defender. He made every team better. Though he played PF later in his career, I still consider him a SF and I think he should be considered in the top ten. I think his legacy is much closer to Pippen's and perhaps even better.
Rodman was not a better defender than Pippen. Rebounder yes (he played PF). Pippen is on many polls as a top 5 SF and on the 50 greatest players list before even Wilkins for one main reason, he is arguably the best perimeter defender the league has ever seen. I can't think of another that can also score and pass not to mention run point in the history of the NBA. Jordan yelled at teamates and if I'm not mistaken, punched Steve Kerr, but he's still the GOAT.

[peskypesky]

No way Marion is in top 10. Forget about it. Top 10 of the past decade? OK. But anyone who thinks he's top 10 all-time clearly needs to go back and learn some history.

[ambchang]

He is the ultimate role player, which is exactly why I want him on my team. Pierce and McGrady are great offensive players (they're also ballhogs), but they haven't really proven anything. Howard is becoming a better player than Marion, but I don't think he's quite there yet.

By the way, I never said he was in my Top 10 SF, because he isn't. Top 25, maybe.

Pierce and McGrady you can build a team around, although the team may only win 35 games, you can still build a team around them because they can carry a team offensively.
Marion, you just can't. He is a good player, most teams would like him on their team (not the Spurs though), but if I had to pick a player to start my team between McGrady, Pierce, JHo and Marion, Marion would come up dead last.

[ambchang]

I'll give you his greatest season, but wasn't that also the same season he sat out the last play because it went to Toni instead of him? That alone makes me question his legacy to so me degree. What great player gives up like that? I would disagree with the opinion that Jordan couldn't do anything without Pippen. Jordan was clearly the more dominant of the two. Jordan dominated before Pippen arrived. He just didn't have crap to work with during the Doug Collins years. People use that same argument to defend KG, but in Jordan's situation it's actually true.

As for Pippen, except for the 55/27 season without Jordan, I remember him being much less spectacular with Portland and Houston. I don't think I'm undervaluing him. I'm recognizing his accomplishment as Jordan's sidekick, but he was never a clear leader on his own. I would consider him a legendary role player. Rodman, by contrast, dominated no matter where he played. I think Rodman was a better defender. He made every team better. Though he played PF later in his career, I still consider him a SF and I think he should be considered in the top ten. I think his legacy is much closer to Pippen's and perhaps even better.
Jordan actually had some quality teammates. He had Orlando "I don't ever play defense" Woolridge, Charles Oakley, a very very old Gervin, Quintin Dailey, John Paxson, and even Pippen and Grant before the Bulls were successful. The thing about Jordan is that he needs a team built very specifically to fit him to succeed. Due to his dominance of the ball, his PGs are all shooters that can't really create (Paxson, Armstrong, Kerr), his Cs plays the mid-range game or are decent interior defenders (Wellington, Longley + Cartright, Perdue), he needs a strong offensive rebounding SF (Rodman, Grant), and a SF who can direct traffic for him and is an incredible passer (Pippen), then there are the role players like Levingston and such. I bet if you put Jordan on the current Lakers team, he can't take them out of the first round. I am not taking anything away from Jordan, and there is no question that he is the best SG of all time, but for all the hate he had for Krause, Krause built an incredible team for him.
As for Rodman, I am surprised you forgot he destroyed the Spurs when he came, and was largely a distraction the last few years he was with Detroit. He is probably the best defender the league has ever seen due to his versatility, but he gave up playing defense since 93 and concentrated on hanging around the basket for rebounds. Pippen is just as effective defending the perimeter, plays all out most of the time (other than that 1.8 seconds), and is a million times the offensive player, there is no comparison.

[The Truth #6]

I've tried to look at Rodman's career in its entirety. Yes, things didn't work out well for him in SA, but at the same time, due to his presence, Dave had two of his best seasons playing alongside Dennis (MVP and scoring title), and they were close to going to the Finals (at least that's what the regular season suggested.)

Almost every team Rodman played for was in contention for a title - at Detroit, in SA, and at Chicago. Given that, I think its fair to give him credit where credit is due. A freak and a distraction at times yes, but his 16 rebounds a game made it work, at least for some teams. I agree Pippen was a much better scorer, but I think Rodman's effect on team success was arguably greater. He was a role player as well, but didn't need anyone to feed off to do his thing. In my opinion his career is more consistent than Pippen's. Playing with Jordan didn't make him somehow better, whereas with Pippen, I think Jordan's presence was crucial. This seems to have haunted Pippen, causing him to come up with outlandish statements last year saying how most coaches would rather have had him over Jordan.

[BradLohaus]

Bird's the best, but c'mon people, where's Jerry West? I think he's #2.

[Agloco]

The list is quite simple:

1) Larry Bird (by a hair mind you......) :lol

2) Sean Elliott (no way in hell am I omitting the Memorial Day Mircale from this list) :toast

3) Scottie Pippen (the best second banana there ever was) :fro


I don't care about the rest.
There's only a small amount of hometown bias in my list........... :smokin

[SRJ]

Jerry West was a guard.

[ambchang]

Bird's the best, but c'mon people, where's Jerry West? I think he's #2.
If West was #2, Jordan is definitely #1.

[wildbill2u]

01 Larry Bird
02 Julius Erving
03 Scottie Pippen
04 Rick Barry
05 Shawn Marion
06 Dominique Wilkins
07 Alex English
08 Adrian Dantley
09 Bernard King
10 Mark Aguirre
Once you get down to Dantley, King and Aguirre you're down to a group of players which could easily be edged out by some others who had longer careers at a high or higher level or won more honors. King only played four years for example. And high scoring, while eye-catching is not the only part of the game that counts.

One guy who is already in the HOF but often gets overlooked is Bobby Jones. He was on the ALL Defensive team every year for 10+ years and still averaged about 15 pts for his career. He was an all-star five times--more than either King, Dantley or Aguirre.