Name 10 players better than Dirk

[Pride]

Aside from the 2007 playoffs this year, Is Dirk Nowitzski a top ten player in the NBA?

[Mister Sinister]

Timmy, Shaq, Nash, Kobe, LBJ, T-Mac, VC, KG, Arenas, J-Kidd.

[resistanze]

Duncan
Kobe
Kidd
Wade
LeBron
Garnett
Yao
Amare

Only a few of those above players I'd say are certainly better than Dirk IMO (Duncan, Wade, LeBron, Kobe). The rest are arguable.

[Spurs16212]

Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
LeBron
McGrady
Arenas
Shaq
Wade
Nash
Parker
Pierce
Ray Allen
Michael Redd

Past Players:

Gervin
Magic
Bird
Russell
Chamberlain
Big "O"
Kareem
Hakeem
Reggie Miller
Allen Houston
Larry Johnson


The list can go on........ Dirk is soft and not a great defender

[Leetonidas]

You people are seriously reaching. The only players playing right now who can be considered better than Dirk would be the following:

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash

And even then, I put Dirk ahead of Wade and Nash.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You people are seriously reaching. The only players playing right now who can be considered better than Dirk would be the following:

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash

And even then, I put Dirk ahead of Wade and Nash.

[SpursDynasty]

The Spurs.

[Hemotivo]

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Luis Scola (http://rapidshare.com/files/48414655/scola.wmv)
LeBron James
Dikembe Mutombo
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Denzel Washington
Caramelo Anthony

[td4mvp21]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Garnett

[E20]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Garnett
The Whole GS Warriors team

[MONTENEGRINO]

10 players? HHard, but let me see...

1. Timmy
2. Kobe
3. KG
4. LeBron
For those Im sure they are better than Dirk. Maybe TMac, DWade, Nash and Amare

[da_suns_fan__]

LMAO @ anyone who thinks T-Mac or VC is better than Dirk.

[resistanze]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Garnett
The Whole GS Warriors team
:lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

There aren't. I'm sorry but all those claiming TMac and Vince Carter are better than Dirk are so full of shit its not even funny. Dirk is not only top 10, he's top 5 period. Only players I'd put above him right now are Tim, Kobe, Garnett, and LeBron.

[Findog]

Duncan, Kobe, Wade, maybe LeBron. Well, probably LeBron. That's it.

Amare, Carter, T-Mac, that's laughable.

[dirk4mvp]

Garnett ? :lol :lol

[Dex]

http://members.cox.net/quadraphonic/8-track-Home-Decks/Bradford%20model%2079608%20Quad%208-Track%20player%201.jpg

[E20]

http://members.cox.net/quadraphonic/8-track-Home-Decks/Bradford%20model%2079608%20Quad%208-Track%20player%201.jpg
http://69.36.242.249/250x400/Stationary_Bike_Exercise_Mat.jpg

[lefty]

http://69.36.242.249/250x400/Stationary_Bike_Exercise_Mat.jpg


:lol :lol

Timmy
Manu
Parker
Findog
Horry
Bowen
Vaughn
Barry
Cisco
Berto
Beno
Cheerleader 1
Cheerleader 2
Maurice Ager

[Dex]

http://base.linux-xp.com/confluence/download/attachments/320/RealPlayer.png

[Roxsfan]

http://www.nba.com/media/rockets/bowerninside.jpg

The Dirk-stopper

Ryan Bowen


seriously Tmac, Yao, KG, TD, Shaq, Pau Gasol, Scola :p:

[ambchang]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Dirk

These are the top 5, you can order them anyway you want.

[Findog]

http://www.nba.com/media/rockets/bowerninside.jpg

The Dirk-stopper

Ryan Bowen


seriously Tmac, Yao, KG, TD, Shaq, Pau Gasol, Scola :p:

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but of those guys, only TD is better than Dirk.

[Medvedenko]

Kobe
TD
Garnett
Lebron
Nash

[sa_kid20]

no way vince carter is better than dirk :nope

[TDMVPDPOY]

no way vince carter is better than dirk :nope

a player i think should be recognize or listed.....carmelo anthony is pretty good when he has no offcourt/on court issues....his game is like kobes, less agility and more power....

[Dalhoop]

Some of these are very funny (The exercise bike wins IMO)

But then we have the homer answers, like those listing the Spurs players (Other then Duncan, who is better by the way)

I hate to remind the Spurs fans of this, but were it not for Dirk they would be enjoying a threepeat right now and be seriously talking about making the case for the third best team OF ALL TIME (Boston way back when, and the Bulls of the nineties)

Dirk is the only one to send the Spurs home early over the last three years, surely the guy can get some man love for that (Carter and T-mac ... were's the love?) :)

[ShoogarBear]

I think it's easy to argue that Wade > Dirk.

But no, there aren't 10.

[Pride]

^^so only four or five players better than Dirk. Thanks everyone for posting.

[monosylab1k]

http://www.nba.com/media/rockets/bowerninside.jpg

The Dirk-stopper

Ryan Bowen
I believe he likes to be referred to as "The Germanator"

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

Dirk singlehandedly ousted the Spurs from the playoffs.

Duncan (certain)
Wade (certain when healthy)
Kobe (certain)
Nash(certain)
Lebron (certain)
Garnett i think is equal because his defense is better

[Roxsfan]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but of those guys, only TD is better than Dirk.


keep dreaming

[Roxsfan]

Some of these are very funny (The exercise bike wins IMO)

But then we have the homer answers, like those listing the Spurs players (Other then Duncan, who is better by the way)

I hate to remind the Spurs fans of this, but were it not for Dirk they would be enjoying a threepeat right now and be seriously talking about making the case for the third best team OF ALL TIME (Boston way back when, and the Bulls of the nineties)

Dirk is the only one to send the Spurs home early over the last three years, surely the guy can get some man love for that (Carter and T-mac ... were's the love?) :)

you make a very good point here with this. Along with Kobe and shaq, Dirk has combined to rob SA from several more rings.

[mardigan]

Tim
Yao
LeBron
Wade
Nash
Kobe
KG
Mello/Dirk (tied)

[Findog]

keep dreaming

You could make an argument for McGrady, but considering Dirk has been to a Finals and Tracy is a second-round virgin, I'll take Dirk. Yao is an even bigger defensive liability than Dirk and has injury and stamina issues. Shaq is in the Fat Elvis stage of his career and is good for 18 and 9 in about 50 games a year.

But, seriously, Gasol? WTF? Perhaps you missed Dirk kicking his teeth in last year in the first round?

[Findog]

Tim
Yao
LeBron
Wade
Nash
Kobe
KG
Mello/Dirk (tied)

everyone is entitled to their opinion, here's mine: Dirk > Yao, Nash, KG and Melo

[mardigan]

everyone is entitled to their opinion, here's mine: Dirk > Yao, Nash, KG and Melo
I would say Nash and Dirk are probably comparable, and even KG and melo are for sure debatable, but come on Yao? Really? Hes the best center in basketball, you really wouldnt take a younger Yao over Dirk?

[z0sa]

There aren't. I'm sorry but all those claiming TMac and Vince Carter are better than Dirk are so full of shit its not even funny. Dirk is not only top 10, he's top 5 period. Only players I'd put above him right now are Tim, Kobe, Garnett, and LeBron.

top5 maybe in the regular season. post season you might wanna put vc and tmac ahead ...

[TheNextGen]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Garnett

[Findog]

I would say Nash and Dirk are probably comparable, and even KG and melo are for sure debatable, but come on Yao? Really? Hes the best center in basketball, you really wouldnt take a younger Yao over Dirk?

As a GM, of course I would take Yao. He's 4 years younger. For the 06-07 season, if I'm a coach, I take Dirk.

Yao is absolutely dominant on one end of the floor and a total matador on the other. At the 4, Dirk is a fair good help defender and mediocre on the ball defender, as long as we're not talking Duncan or Garnett. His atrocious defense against GSW was due to being slid over to C because of Damp's injury. He's not good enough defensively to anchor a frontline, but then again, as of right now, neither is Yao.

[Findog]

top5 maybe in the regular season. post season you might wanna put vc and tmac ahead ...

LMFAO. T-Mac who's never gotten out of the first round and Vince who's never made it past the second round? The same VC that tips off opposing benches as to what play is coming, and not in a "This is what I'm gonna do and you can't stop me" way, but "this is what we're running because I want us to lose" way?

[stretch]

top5 maybe in the regular season. post season you might wanna put vc and tmac ahead ...
Are you retarded?

[icem]

i think carmelo anthony is better than dirk

[Findog]

i think carmelo anthony is better than dirk

Right, and Melo has gotten his team out of the first round how many times?

[dallaskd]

Aside from the 2007 playoffs this year, Is Dirk Nowitski a top ten player in the NBA?

Nowitzki

dumbfuck :bang

[dallaskd]

i think carmelo anthony is better than dirk

no fucking way

[Findog]

no fucking way

As a GM with an eye to the long-term future, I'd rather have Carmelo. But 30 out of 30 coaches and GMs would rather have Dirk today.

[dallaskd]

Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
LeBron
McGrady
Arenas
Shaq
Wade
Nash
Parker
Pierce
Ray Allen
Michael Redd

Dirk is by far the greatest Euro Player of all time and a top 5 player right now in the NBA. You said shaq, tmac, vince, garnett, pierce, ray allen, arenas, MICHAEL REDD...?
kill yourself.

[Pride]

Nowitzki

dumbfuck
^^lol. How about No-win-skum? Is that better?

[confined]

^ never start a topic again, especially when it's something as stupid as this...there are 4 players better than dirk in the nba....TD, lebron, kobe, and wade ( nash is a big maybe ) ...you obviously only started this topic to start more senseless arguements on this board

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

^

[stretch]

1. Wade
2. Lebron
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Dirk

[bdictjames]

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Nash
4. Lebron

That's about it.

[Pride]

[Quote by confined] never start a topic again, especially when it's something as stupid as this...there are 4 players better than dirk in the nba....TD, lebron, kobe, and wade ( nash is a big maybe ) ...you obviously only started this topic to start more senseless arguements on this board.

...yeah, whatever.

[icem]

yes, carmelo is much better talent-wise than dirk. name a player who can shut down carmelo anthony ? i can name several who can make dirk their bitch. while melo is not a great defensive player, hes still a better defender than dirk, and much more clutch.

dirk is a great player, but some of you really overrate the guy.

[JamStone]

I'm going to name 10 players taller than Dirk:

1. Yao Ming
2. Zydrunas Ilgauskas
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Jerome James
6. Jake Tsakalidas
7. Joel Pryzbilla
8. Tyson Chandler
9. Darko Milicic
10. Martynus Andriuskevicius

[TheNextGen]

1. Wade
2. Lebron
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Dirk


Is that the actual order you got them as?

[stretch]

Is that the actual order you got them as?
Well, IMO, Wade is the best player in the NBA.

The other 4 are all debatable as to their postion to me, but if I had to pick a spot, thats where I have them. So yes, that is the actual order I have them as, for now.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
LeBron
McGrady
Arenas
Shaq
Wade
Nash
Parker
Pierce
Ray Allen
Michael Redd

Past Players:

Gervin
Magic
Bird
Russell
Chamberlain
Big "O"
Kareem
Hakeem
Reggie Miller
Allen Houston
Larry Johnson


The list can go on........ Dirk is soft and not a great defenderSo is Michael Redd.

[wildchild]

Top ten: Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Dirk (top five), LeBron, Melo, Arenas, Shaq, Garnett .

[mardigan]

I cant believe how many people dont mention Yao at all.
People are naming Shaq (which is ridiculous btw), but no one lists the best center in the league?
Yao>>>>>>Dirk

[Findog]

I cant believe how many people dont mention Yao at all.
People are naming Shaq (which is ridiculous btw), but no one lists the best center in the league?
Yao>>>>>>Dirk

As a GM, I'd only rather have Yao on account of him being 4 years younger. Today I'd rather have Dirk.

[mardigan]

As a GM, I'd only rather have Yao on account of him being 4 years younger. Today I'd rather have Dirk.
Not even so much that, but people here naming guys like Redd, Arenas, Carter and Shaq as better players, but no one mentions a 7-6 center that averaged 25, 9 and 2 blocks? Yao is top 5 imo

[Findog]

Not even so much that, but people here naming guys like Redd, Arenas, Carter and Shaq as better players, but no one mentions a 7-6 center that averaged 25, 9 and 2 blocks? Yao is top 5 imo

Yeah, Yao is better than those guys listed, and he will probably overtake Dirk within the next 2-3 years. Lots of diarrhea in this thread.

[CavsSuperFan]

LeBron James (See Shoe Contract...)
Tim Duncan/Tony Parker (See NBA Titles...)
Steve Nash
Kobe Bryant (Selfish, can't attract any MAJOR star to play with him...)
Dirk Nowitzski
Shaq/Wade
Kevin Garnett (Getting old & over paid)..

[ehz33satx]

Until Dirk proves he has some heart, I would not rank him above 8. Golden State proved Dirk does not have the heart in him to be a great player. You have to be hard as steel. Dirk is soft as tortillas. You can rip through him like kleenex.

[Findog]

Until Dirk proves he has some heart, I would not rank him above 8. Golden State proved Dirk does not have the heart in him to be a great player. You have to be hard as steel. Dirk is soft as tortillas. You can rip through him like kleenex.

funny to hear that from a Spurs fan.

[ehz33satx]

funny to hear that from a Spurs fan.

What? Am I lying? Making shit up? Dirk IS soft, whether I am a Spurs fan or not.

[ehz33satx]

If I was on the playground, I would pick the fat kid that always gets picked last before I ever picked Dirk to be on my team.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk is soft as tortillas. You can rip through him like kleenex.
Too bad Manu couldn't rip through Dirk's kleenex exterior and force him to miss that lay in, eh?

[Findog]

If I was on the playground, I would pick the fat kid that always gets picked last before I ever picked Dirk to be on my team.

Then you'd lose repeatedly, blind homer.

[monosylab1k]

for all my criticism of Dirk, people are fucking stupid to say he's soft. The guy plays on two sprained ankles basically all year long, he's gotten his teeth knocked out (and in that game he STILL dropped 30...on the Spurs of all teams), and despite his "flopping" he's taken alot of hard shots over the years and gotten up from all of them.

Choker, yes. Soft, not by a fucking longshot.

[Findog]

What? Am I lying? Making shit up? Dirk IS soft, whether I am a Spurs fan or not.

What mono said, tough guy.

[ehz33satx]

Then you'd lose repeatedly, blind homer.

You lose anyways with Dirk on your team.

[Findog]

You lose anyways with Dirk on your team.

To Golden State and Miami, yes. San Antonio, not so much.

[ehz33satx]

When your team has 4 championships, then step up to the plate. Until then, simmer in your jealousy.

[Findog]

When your team has 4 championships, then step up to the plate. Until then, simmer in your jealousy.

Who said I'm jealous? You have your opinion, retarded as it is, of Dirk, I have mine. I say Dirk's a top-five player with a checkered playoff history. You say he's a scrub. I'll let your opinion speak for itself. Mine is closer to reality than yours.

Why a fan of a team with 4 titles would go out of his way to shit on a team and a player that has 0, I don't know, but I'll leave that up to your therapist to figure that one out.

[ehz33satx]

To Golden State and Miami, yes. San Antonio, not so much.
A loser is a loser. Choker equates to soft.

[Findog]

A loser is a loser. Choker equates to soft.

It's hard to call a top-five player that perenially leads his teams to 60+ wins and has a Finals appearance under his belt a "loser," but keep on making yourself look ridiculous. By your criteria, every NBA player not named Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal and Dwyane Wade is a loser.

[mardigan]

You lose anyways with Dirk on your team.
Bro, I dont know why you feel the need to try and make Dirk seem soft.
Before this last year pretty much every Spurs fan was terrified of him, and ever since last year, when we didnt even have to play him, he's soft, bullshit.
No one was saying that shit when they knocked us out of the playoffs, and have ever since been looking for our "Dirk stopper".
Dont make a freak matchup problem the reason why Dirk would be down the list of top players.
Guy is still top 5, even if you would pick the fat kid first.
We're just lucky we didnt have to play the Mavs this year, dont lie to yourself

[ehz33satx]

Who said I'm jealous? You have your opinion, retarded as it is, of Dirk, I have mine. I say Dirk's a top-five player with a checkered playoff history. You say he's a scrub. I'll let your opinion speak for itself. Mine is closer to reality than yours.

Why a fan of a team with 4 titles would go out of his way to shit on a team and a player that has 0, I don't know, but I'll leave that up to your therapist to figure that one out.

Because you Mavs fans come in here and shit on the Spurs. There is nothing great about the Mavericks or Dirk Nowinski. If you dont like it go back to your Mavs fan boards and duke it out with the 4 or 5 members that post there.

[mardigan]

Because you Mavs fans come in here and shit on the Spurs. There is nothing great about the Mavericks or Dirk Nowinski. If you dont like it go back to your Mavs fan boards and duke it out with the 4 or 5 members that post there.
Findog and Mono give the SPurs props all the time, two of the better Mav posters we have here

[Findog]

Bro, I dont know why you feel the need to try and make Dirk seem soft.
Before this last year pretty much every Spurs fan was terrified of him, and ever since last year, when we didnt even have to play him, he soft, bullshit.
No one was saying that shit when they knocked us out of the playoffs, and have ever since been looking for our "Dirk stopper".
Dont make a freak matchup problem the reason why Dirk would be down the list of top players.
Guy is still top 5, even if you would pick the fat kid first.
We're just lucky we didnt have to play the Mavs this year, dont lie to yourself

:toast

[Findog]

Because you Mavs fans come in here and shit on the Spurs

Way to generalize. Most of the Mavs trolls are gone. I'll put you in the SpursDynasty/spursreport retarded segment of the Spurs fanbase.

[ehz33satx]

Bro, I dont know why you feel the need to try and make Dirk seem soft.
Before this last year pretty much every Spurs fan was terrified of him, and ever since last year, when we didnt even have to play him, he's soft, bullshit.
No one was saying that shit when they knocked us out of the playoffs, and have ever since been looking for our "Dirk stopper".
Dont make a freak matchup problem the reason why Dirk would be down the list of top players.
Guy is still top 5, even if you would pick the fat kid first.
We're just lucky we didnt have to play the Mavs this year, dont lie to yourself

We did not have to play the Mavs because an 8th seed came and took them out. Maybe soft was a poor choice of words. Choker is more suitable.

[Findog]

We did not have to play the Mavs because an 8th seed came and took them out. Maybe soft was a poor choice of words. Choker is more suitable.

Golden State > a typical 8 seed.

Dallas < a typical 1 seed.

Golden State's final record: 42-40
Golden State's record with Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson and Al Harrington together and healthy: 16-3

I don't know about you, but put those four guys on your roster and you're much better.

[mardigan]

We did not have to play the Mavs because an 8th seed came and took them out. Maybe soft was a poor choice of words. Choker is more suitable.
I blame Avery, not their players

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Here comes another blind homer Spurs troll...

[Findog]

I blame Avery, not their players

Dirk deserves some blame, the way this team is constructed, we need 25 and 12 a night from him to win, and he gave us 19, 10 and 3 in the GS series...although it's not his fault that with Baron Davis and four wings on the floor, there was nobody for him to guard.

As much as I hated it as a Mavs fan, that series was Nellie's most brilliant work. As a basketball fan, you can't help but admire what he pulled off. There was definitely one team in mind when he made the trade for Jax and Al.

[ehz33satx]

Sorry, I can't sit here and play around with you boys anymore today. My lady is coming over on her lunch break for a sweet nooner. So take care and don't miss me to much.

[SpursDynasty]

Can we please stop this Dirk debate?

Dirk was above average in the 2006 series vs. the Spurs, he surprised everyone and no one expected it.

But since then, he's been average just like expected. A lot of players can have a "breakout" series where they surprise everyone and then go back into obscurity (Mike Bibby in 2002 for example). In the 2006 NBA Finals vs. the Heat, no one thought Dallas would win, and they didn't win. Same with the 2007 series vs. the Warriors. The Warriors had won all three regular season meetings and three out of four the previous regular season meetings, thus making them the favorites in the series....the result? They won....

My point is, players will have a good breakout series and we tend to think that will carry over, but in reality, as with Dirk, it didn't. We haven't seen the 2002 Bibby from the Lakers series, and the 2006 Dirk from the Spurs series is gone too. The Kings were never the favorites to win it all after that series, as Dallas has not been the favorite to win since the Spurs series.

So let's not penalize Dirk for not being a Top 10 NBA player, he's not supposed to be a Top 10 NBA player. That's like saying "Slava Medvedenko sucks! Duncan is better!" Dirk is not in the same class as the top NBA players such as Duncan, Wade, Nash (the only Sun I give credit to), Garnett, and so forth.

Playoff results don't lie. And I know you all absolutely hate this, but the teams that are supposed to win the series usually win the series. Playoff series' are now 7 games, there is no excuse for a team who is supposedly the better team, to lose.

[Findog]

Sorry, I can't sit here and play around with you boys anymore today. My lady is coming over on her lunch break for a sweet nooner. So take care and don't miss me to much.

Please, by all means, let us know how it went:

http://www.allaescort.com/San-Antonio.php

[monosylab1k]

Sorry, I can't sit here and play around with you boys anymore today. My lady is coming over on her lunch break for a sweet nooner. So take care and don't miss me to much.
Translation: Break's over, back to World Of Warcraft!

[Findog]

Translation: Break's over, back to World Of Warcraft!

Translation: I got schooled and it's time to head on over to www.titsmaster.com (extremely NSFW) for a "nooner" with my "lady."

[monosylab1k]

Can we please stop this Dirk debate?

Dirk was above average in the 2006 series vs. the Spurs, he surprised everyone and no one expected it.

But since then, he's been average just like expected. A lot of players can have a "breakout" series where they surprise everyone and then go back into obscurity (Mike Bibby in 2002 for example). In the 2006 NBA Finals vs. the Heat, no one thought Dallas would win, and they didn't win. Same with the 2007 series vs. the Warriors. The Warriors had won all three regular season meetings and three out of four the previous regular season meetings, thus making them the favorites in the series....the result? They won....

My point is, players will have a good breakout series and we tend to think that will carry over, but in reality, as with Dirk, it didn't. We haven't seen the 2002 Bibby from the Lakers series, and the 2006 Dirk from the Spurs series is gone too. The Kings were never the favorites to win it all after that series, as Dallas has not been the favorite to win since the Spurs series.

So let's not penalize Dirk for not being a Top 10 NBA player, he's not supposed to be a Top 10 NBA player. That's like saying "Slava Medvedenko sucks! Duncan is better!" Dirk is not in the same class as the top NBA players such as Duncan, Wade, Nash (the only Sun I give credit to), Garnett, and so forth.

Playoff results don't lie. And I know you all absolutely hate this, but the teams that are supposed to win the series usually win the series. Playoff series' are now 7 games, there is no excuse for a team who is supposedly the better team, to lose.

shouldn't you be practicing for Friday night's gig in Addison?

[SpursDynasty]

shouldn't you be practicing for Friday night's gig in Addison?

You guys are so obsessed to the point that you actually want to believe that individual is me. The fact that his username is "jeffdrums" and lives in Texas, is entirely coincidental. Don't you think I would be a Mavs fan if I fucking lived in Dallas?

[Findog]

You guys are so obsessed to the point that you actually want to believe that individual is me. The fact that his username is "jeffdrums" and lives in Texas, is entirely coincidental. Don't you think I would be a Mavs fan if I fucking lived in Dallas?

Uh, not necessarily. See ObstructedView and AggieHoopsfan. I lived in Austin for seven years, which is definitely Spurs territory. I didn't switch my allegiances.

[mardigan]

You guys are so obsessed to the point that you actually want to believe that individual is me. The fact that his username is "jeffdrums" and lives in Texas, is entirely coincidental. Don't you think I would be a Mavs fan if I fucking lived in Dallas?
Transplant

And that guy looks like a douche bag the same way I would imagine you do
Why do you still post? Everyone hates everything you have to say, and your constant stupidity makes non-Spurs fans think that were all as stupid as you

[SpursDynasty]

Transplant

And that guy looks like a douche bag the same way I would imagine you do
Why do you still post? Everyone hates everything you have to say, and your constant stupidity makes non-Spurs fans think that were all as stupid as you

If you think he looks like a douchebag, fine. That individual still isn't me.....That comment is just a random opinion of a random stranger.

[monosylab1k]

If you think he looks like a douchebag, fine. That individual still isn't me.....That comment is just a random opinion of a random stranger.
is "random" the new "fluke"?

[J.T.]

Uh, not necessarily. See ObstructedView and AggieHoopsfan. I lived in Austin for seven years, which is definitely Spurs territory. I didn't switch my allegiances.

San Marcos is strangely a neutral ground for Texas basketball teams. Pretty decent mix of SA, Houston and Dallas fans here despite it being like only 30 minutes outside of SA. I've always found it odd that San Marcos is having a threeway with the Texas NBA teams but Austin is predominantly Spurs fans.

[Findog]

If you think he looks like a douchebag, fine. That individual still isn't me.....That comment is just a random opinion of a random stranger.

Methinks SpursDynasty doth protest too much.

[Findog]

San Marcos is strangely a neutral ground for Texas basketball teams. Pretty decent mix of SA, Houston and Dallas fans here despite it being like only 30 minutes outside of SA. I've always found it odd that San Marcos is having a threeway with the Texas NBA teams but Austin is predominantly Spurs fans.

If there are any Rockets or Mav fans in the central Texas area, they're most likely students at UT, Trinity, UTSA, SWT and/or stayed on after graduation. That was at least my experience. Watched a lot of Spurs games broadcast locally in Austin.

[SpursDynasty]

Methinks SpursDynasty doth protest too much.

Just letting him know it's not me so he doesn't get the satisfaction of actually thinking he told me I look like a douchebag after supposedly seeing a picture of me.

[monosylab1k]

Just letting him know it's not me so he doesn't get the satisfaction of actually thinking he told me I look like a douchebag after supposedly seeing a picture of me.
:lmao

[Findog]

is "random" the new "fluke"?

That guy is just a random stranger randomly looking like a douche, just like he's supposed to randomly do. No surprises there.

[Findog]

Just letting him know it's not me so he doesn't get the satisfaction of actually thinking he told me I look like a douchebag after supposedly seeing a picture of me.

Friendly advice: Quit while you're ahead.

[Obstructed_View]

To Golden State and Miami, yes. San Antonio, not so much.
Yeah, Dirk owns plantar fasciitis and smallball. When's the parade?

[Obstructed_View]

Just letting him know it's not me so he doesn't get the satisfaction of actually thinking he told me I look like a douchebag after supposedly seeing a picture of me.
Actually, I know you're a douchebag and I've never even seen you.

[Findog]

Yeah, Dirk owns plantar fasciitis and smallball. When's the parade?

C'mon, Timmy threw down 32 and 13 in that series, in the lockerroom after G7, he said "That's the best series I've ever played," and you're still going with the 'Timmy was hobbled' meme?

[Obstructed_View]

C'mon, Timmy threw down 32 and 13 in that series, in the lockerroom after G7, he said "That's the best series I've ever played," and you're still going with the 'Timmy was hobbled' meme?
Dirk never got past the Spurs before. Actually, Timmy having PF wasn't enough by itself. It also took a Parker injury and Pop fucking the rotation in order for it to happen.

[Findog]

Dirk never got past the Spurs before. Actually, Timmy having PF wasn't enough by itself. It also took a Parker injury and Pop fucking the rotation in order for it to happen.

We've taken 8 out of the past 12 from you guys. What was the excuse over that span of time? Spurs have 4 titles, Mavs have 0, but surely you can admit that these two teams are pretty much neck-and-neck when they play each other?

Avery "messed up" our rotation against Golden State, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse. Also, the Spurs fought back and won two straight to tie the series after going small. I think Pop realized Duncan and spreading the floor with 4 shooters was the best way to win. And if JET keeps his hands off Finley's junk, that series probably ends in six games.

The Spurs just don't have a reliable answer for Dirk and Josh together. There's only one Bowen to go around, and Duncan/Oberto/Elson can't really guard either.

[SpursDynasty]

Friendly advice: Quit while you're ahead.

There is nothing TO quit. It's not me...what is there to quit?

[SpursDynasty]

We've taken 8 out of the past 12 from you guys. What was the excuse over that span of time? Spurs have 4 titles, Mavs have 0, but surely you can admit that these two teams are pretty much neck-and-neck when they play?

Make that 7 out of 12. Tim getting tossed doesn't count.

[Findog]

Make that 7 out of 12. Tim getting tossed doesn't count.

Of course it doesn't. Actually, the Spurs have taken 12 out of the last 12, right, considering when we win it's a fluke?

[Findog]

There is nothing TO quit. It's not me...what is there to quit?

I wish I could quit YOU SpursDynasty.

[dickface]

Make that 7 out of 12. Tim getting tossed doesn't count.
7 out of 11, that whole game doesn't count for either.

[Obstructed_View]

We've taken 8 out of the past 12 from you guys. What was the excuse over that span of time? Spurs have 4 titles, Mavs have 0, but surely you can admit that these two teams are pretty much neck-and-neck when they play?
Wow, so the Bucks must be title contenders, too.

[SpursDynasty]

We've taken 8 out of the past 12 from you guys. What was the excuse over that span of time? Spurs have 4 titles, Mavs have 0, but surely you can admit that these two teams are pretty much neck-and-neck when they play each other?

Avery "messed up" our rotation against Golden State, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse. Also, the Spurs fought back and won two straight to tie the series after going small. I think Pop realized Duncan and spreading the floor with 4 shooters was the best way to win. And if JET keeps his hands off Finley's junk, that series probably ends in six games.

The Spurs just don't have a reliable answer for Dirk and Josh together. There's only one Bowen to go around, and Duncan/Oberto/Elson can't really guard either.

I wouldn't necessarily call a 7 game series, with 5 of those games being decided by 5 points or less, including 2 overtimes (including a no-call foul on a Duncan attempt in the closing of regulation in Game 7) as "The Spurs don't have an answer". Same with this season. No games were more than 5 point games. The Spurs won opening night in Dallas (like they were supposed to), got a no-call on a play that would have tied the game in the closing of the 2nd game (surprise surprise, a call in Dallas' favor), and Duncan got tossed in the last game for nothing.

Inflated Records and Inflated Generalizations = Dallas Fans

[Obstructed_View]

Of course it doesn't. Actually, the Spurs have taken 12 out of the last 12, right, considering when we win it's a fluke?
What does it say about Dirk, that his greatest achievement in his playoff career is winning a conference semifinal series?

[Obstructed_View]

Avery "messed up" our rotation against Golden State, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse. Also, the Spurs fought back and won two straight to tie the series after going small. I think Pop realized Duncan and spreading the floor with 4 shooters was the best way to win. And if JET keeps his hands off Finley's junk, that series probably ends in six games.
If we're going to play the "if only" game, the Spurs win the series in six if Pop doesn't bench the centers after game 2. It took the Spurs two and a half games to figure out how to play small. Even learning on the fly, they almost pulled the series out, which is still amazing to me. I'm still surprised the Mavs didn't close it out in five, because they shouldn't have had a chance. This year, AJ didn't fundamentally change the way his team plays (and wins), and he didn't bench 20 percent of his team. The Mavs just ran into a team that owns them playing better ball. It happens from time to time.


The Spurs just don't have a reliable answer for Dirk and Josh together. There's only one Bowen to go around, and Duncan/Oberto/Elson can't really guard either.
Fortunately, team defense doesn't require being able to shut down individuals. Smallball's lack of same allowed the Mavs to shoot 80 percent in the first quarter of almost every game during that series. Dirk and Josh are great players. They haven't proven that they can do anything when it matters.

[Findog]

What does it say about Dirk, that his greatest achievement in his playoff career is winning a conference semifinal series?

I thought his greatest career achievement came one round later.

[Findog]

If we're going to play the "if only" game, the Spurs win the series in six if Pop doesn't bench the centers after game 2. It took the Spurs two and a half games to figure out how to play small. Even learning on the fly, they almost pulled the series out, which is still amazing to me. I'm still surprised the Mavs didn't close it out in five, because they shouldn't have had a chance. This year, AJ didn't fundamentally change the way his team plays (and wins), and he didn't bench 20 percent of his team. The Mavs just ran into a team that owns them playing better ball. It happens from time to time.


Fortunately, team defense doesn't require being able to shut down individuals. Smallball's lack of same allowed the Mavs to shoot 80 percent in the first quarter of almost every game during that series. Dirk and Josh are great players. They haven't proven that they can do anything when it matters.

If Pop hadn't gone small, it would've been more of the same after G2. I'm not sure exactly what you think Rasho and Nazr would've done that warranted them playing heavy minutes in that series.

[dickface]

I thought his greatest career achievement came one round later.
Beat SA was far more impressive. Against Phoenix, Dallas was just beating a team they were supposed to beat (with thanks to SpursDynasty)

[Findog]

Beat SA was far more impressive. Against Phoenix, Dallas was just beating a team they were supposed to beat (with thanks to SpursDynasty)

Well, point being, whether it was achieved by beating San Antonio and thus the win over Phoenix was a mere formality, or if Phoenix was a worthy opponent, Dirk's greatest career achievement is leading a team to a Finals berth, nothing more, nothing less. It ain't a title, but it's more than merely winning a series. OV was arguing that the win over SAS was a mere series win and nothing more. Leading a team out of the West is an achievement.

[Findog]

Wow, so the Bucks must be title contenders, too.

The Mavs are title contenders independent of the success they've had against the Spurs. Why can't you just admit Dallas can hold its own against San Antonio? I mean, if winning 8 of 12 and a playoff series means you can't hang, then what does?

[Findog]

I wouldn't necessarily call a 7 game series, with 5 of those games being decided by 5 points or less, including 2 overtimes (including a no-call foul on a Duncan attempt in the closing of regulation in Game 7) as "The Spurs don't have an answer". Same with this season. No games were more than 5 point games. The Spurs won opening night in Dallas (like they were supposed to), got a no-call on a play that would have tied the game in the closing of the 2nd game (surprise surprise, a call in Dallas' favor), and Duncan got tossed in the last game for nothing.

Inflated Records and Inflated Generalizations = Dallas Fans

Dallas should contract and let the Spurs have their pick of whatever players they like to add to their team. When San Antonio wins, they're just winning like they're supposed to do. When Dallas "wins", the sinister hand of Stern and Donaghy is in play.

[Obstructed_View]

If Pop hadn't gone small, it would've been more of the same after G2. I'm not sure exactly what you think Rasho and Nazr would've done that warranted them playing heavy minutes in that series.
Well, the Spurs won more games with them playing center than they ever won with David Robinson. They went 2-3 without them. They had no interior defense whatsoever and Duncan spent a lot of time in foul trouble. You watched the series, and with Parker hobbled and finley playing Howard there was a layup line with no shot blockers behind them.

Also, there's a difference between playing heavy minutes, and playing NO minutes. Pop was putting Oberto in for defensive situations when Horry and Duncan were in foul trouble. That's just stupid. Nobody from the Spurs except Duncan showed up for game 2. Good thing Pop didn't bench all of them for the rest of the series, but he might as well have. It would have gotten it over with earlier.

[Obstructed_View]

The Mavs are title contenders independent of the success they've had against the Spurs. Why can't you just admit Dallas can hold its own against San Antonio? I mean, if winning 8 of 12 and a playoff series means you can't hang, then what does?
Dallas won that series fair and square. I have no problem with that. It's more because of what the Spurs did wrong than what the Mavericks did right. Dallas is a very good team. I'm not disputing that. The Mavericks team at the end of 2006 was better (IMO) than the 2007 team. The Spurs are better now because they actually KNOW how to play with a small lineup and they have a center rotation that actually logs some minutes. The Mavs had their shot, and I think they missed out on it. They might beat the Spurs someday, but it won't be in the next few years. And the Bucks have probably won 8 of the last 12 against San Antonio. It means about as much to me.

[Obstructed_View]

OV was arguing that the win over SAS was a mere series win and nothing more. Leading a team out of the West is an achievement.
Except that the discussion is never the trip to the finals, it's always about how they got over the hump by beating San Antonio, even though they couldn't seal the deal. So they beat the Suns, who also have yet to prove they can do anything in the playoffs, and the Suns trolls will be quick to tell you Amare wasn't there so it somehow doesn't count.

To top it off, despite all the Mavericks' accomplishments over the past two years, you still go back to the record against the Spurs to try to make me worry about your team. Sorry, but I'm not. My advice is that you pray for injuries or coaching mistakes before the next time the two teams meet up in the postseason.

[Dalhoop]

I will pray for the same things that I prayed for at the end of last season, a first round win, a second round win, a WCF meeting with the Spurs ... and a win, and then meeting the Pistons in the NBA finals.

I fear the Suns more then a do the Spurs because the match-ups with the Spurs favor us, and the match-ups with the Suns favor them.

The Suns (And of course the Warriors) are the two teams that I want the Mavs to avoid in a future series. The warriors are an easier dodge, the Suns ... Not so much.

[SpursDynasty]

It's a seven game series, with two overtimes, and 5 games decided by 5 or less points, including a no-call foul when Duncan made an attempt at the end of regulation in Game 7.

This year, Spurs won one, a no-call on the 2nd game, and Duncan tossed out of the last game.

Once again, inflated generalizations of the Mavs "dominating" the Spurs.

[monosylab1k]

including a no-call foul when Duncan made an attempt at the end of regulation in Game 7.
surely you'll show some objectivity and agree that there was also a no-call foul on Dirk at the end of Game 5, right?

[Findog]

surely you'll show some objectivity and agree that there was also a no-call foul on Dirk at the end of Game 5, right?

no, it was all ball by bowen. dirk is a fluke.

[monosylab1k]

no, it was all ball by bowen. dirk is a fluke.
haha i'm sure we'll see picture evidence as well.

hell, in that game there was that no-call, the "jump ball" when terry clearly signaled for a timeout beforehand, and then parker pulling on dirk's jersey as he attempted the last-second put back.

i'm sure as a reasonable person, Jeff will admit that the Spurs may have gotten away with a no-call or two in their time as well.

[SpursDynasty]

Spurs have never gotten away with no-calls. Dallas has gotten away with the most no-calls this year. That is why their 67 wins are inflated by 10 wins or so.
I mean, shit, a foul at the end of a Game 7 should be called. Doesn't matter, Dallas can get their 67 shit wins and then get kicked out of the playoffs by superior teams like Golden State.

[monosylab1k]

Spurs have never gotten away with no-calls. Dallas has gotten away with the most no-calls this year. That is why their 67 wins are inflated by 10 wins or so.
I mean, shit, a foul at the end of a Game 7 should be called. Doesn't matter, Dallas can get their 67 shit wins and then get kicked out of the playoffs by superior teams like Golden State.

LOL okay Jeff. Get off the internets and practice those drums. You're the foundation of the Josh Daniels Band...maybe one day you can rename it the Jeff Band.

[SpursDynasty]

LOL okay Jeff. Get off the internets and practice those drums. You're the foundation of the Josh Daniels Band...maybe one day you can rename it the Jeff Band.

It's not me. Sorry to spoil your dream, but it's not me.

[monosylab1k]

Jeff Freeman is originally from Tyler, Texas but at 22 is a very accomplished musician. He received his 1st drum set when he was only 5 years old. He studied under the Great Ken “Nardo” Murray and spent 17 years training to become one of the best drummers in Texas. The past 4 years he has played professionally from Austin to Dallas. Professional Studio Musician at Arlyn Studios (Austin, Texas) and Pedernales Studio in Austin, Texas.

Venues played: Voodoo Lounge @ Jackson Mississippi, Hard Rock @ Austin, Tx., Dukes Roadhouse @ Addison, Tx (4th of July Kaboom Town) Saxon Pub @ Austin, Tx., SXSW @ Austin, Tx.

[monosylab1k]

if you played South By Southwest then major props to you, Jeff.

P.S. I'll be at the show on Friday holding the "SpursDynasty Rocks My World!" poster. See you there!

[Findog]

Spurs have never gotten away with no-calls. Dallas has gotten away with the most no-calls this year. That is why their 67 wins are inflated by 10 wins or so.
I mean, shit, a foul at the end of a Game 7 should be called. Doesn't matter, Dallas can get their 67 shit wins and then get kicked out of the playoffs by superior teams like Golden State.

Of course. I'm sure you had the NBA Pass and watched all 82 Dallas games.

[Findog]

Well, the Spurs won more games with them playing center than they ever won with David Robinson. They went 2-3 without them. They had no interior defense whatsoever and Duncan spent a lot of time in foul trouble. You watched the series, and with Parker hobbled and finley playing Howard there was a layup line with no shot blockers behind them.

Also, there's a difference between playing heavy minutes, and playing NO minutes. Pop was putting Oberto in for defensive situations when Horry and Duncan were in foul trouble. That's just stupid. Nobody from the Spurs except Duncan showed up for game 2. Good thing Pop didn't bench all of them for the rest of the series, but he might as well have. It would have gotten it over with earlier.

I'm sorry, but I keep hearing these excuses about Timmy's foot and TP being banged up. Dirk had a severely sprained ankle at the end of G4, if we had lost the series, I wouldn't use that an excuse. Parker was about as effective as he always is against us, ranging from average to very good. He's had some big games against us but he doesn't consistently light us up like Nash, Baron or T-Mac.

[Findog]

Dallas won that series fair and square. I have no problem with that. It's more because of what the Spurs did wrong than what the Mavericks did right. Dallas is a very good team. I'm not disputing that. The Mavericks team at the end of 2006 was better (IMO) than the 2007 team. The Spurs are better now because they actually KNOW how to play with a small lineup and they have a center rotation that actually logs some minutes. The Mavs had their shot, and I think they missed out on it. They might beat the Spurs someday, but it won't be in the next few years. And the Bucks have probably won 8 of the last 12 against San Antonio. It means about as much to me.

I don't know how you can sound so sure about that. Nothing has fundamentally changed between the two teams. In my opinion, it's a 50/50 proposition when these two teams get together. I think the Spurs would've won in a hypothetical playoff matchup this year because Dallas unfortunately chose late April to start playing some shitty ball. If the two teams had met earlier in the spring for a 7-game series, I think the Mavs would've won. San Antonio has four titles partly because they know how to pace themselves better for an 82-game season, something Dallas hasn't learned how to do. They peaked too early.

[Roxsfan]

I'm sorry, but I keep hearing these excuses about Timmy's foot and TP being banged up. Dirk had a severely sprained ankle at the end of G4, if we had lost the series, I wouldn't use that an excuse. Parker was about as effective as he always is against us, ranging from average to very good. He's had some big games against us but he doesn't consistently light us up like Nash, Baron or T-Mac.

damn str8 :madrun :smokin

[Findog]

Except that the discussion is never the trip to the finals, it's always about how they got over the hump by beating San Antonio, even though they couldn't seal the deal. So they beat the Suns, who also have yet to prove they can do anything in the playoffs, and the Suns trolls will be quick to tell you Amare wasn't there so it somehow doesn't count.

To top it off, despite all the Mavericks' accomplishments over the past two years, you still go back to the record against the Spurs to try to make me worry about your team. Sorry, but I'm not. My advice is that you pray for injuries or coaching mistakes before the next time the two teams meet up in the postseason.

And my advice is to take into consideration that Dirk and Howard together give us an even chance to beat you guys. I don't think Pop made any huge blunders in the 06 series and I don't buy that the mighty Spurs were playing with one hand tied behind their back due to injuries. Like our guys weren't banged up and at 100 percent. Like 29 other teams, we don't have much of an answer for Duncan, but you guys don't have much of one for Howard and Dirk either. The Mavs were built to beat the Spurs...only problem being is that Donnie and Avery figured that pretty much equaled a title, and of course it didn't. I agree Dallas blew a golden opportunity against Miami, because we don't "own" the Spurs just because we beat you guys by the thinnest of margins.

Strange as it may sound, I'd rather face San Antonio in the playoffs than Phoenix. Up-tempo teams just give us trouble, we were built more for traditional halfcourt teams like the Spurs. I would say a seven-game series between Dallas and San Antonio is a tossup, whereas I would take Phoenix over Dallas today in a playoff matchup.

[Findog]

damn str8 :madrun :smokin

Rox look very good on paper. We'll see how it plays out this year.

[kobe_bryant]

dirk top 5


that from the best player in the game

[gtownspur]

Duncan
yao
kobe
Kidd
Nash
Bron
Mello
07 parker
Garnett
Wade
Nowitzki

[Obstructed_View]

I'm sorry, but I keep hearing these excuses about Timmy's foot and TP being banged up. Dirk had a severely sprained ankle at the end of G4, if we had lost the series, I wouldn't use that an excuse. Parker was about as effective as he always is against us, ranging from average to very good. He's had some big games against us but he doesn't consistently light us up like Nash, Baron or T-Mac.
Look at the defensive end. Devin Harris shredded Parker, because he was quicker. He never was any other time but that series, but whatever. It doesn't really matter, because injuries were just peripheral to the fact that Pop went small and abandoned the team's defensive philosophy; something very much within the team's control, so it's on the Spurs for the loss. The coach of the better team should never make an adjustment to the opposition's personnel. You do what you do and you force the opponent to make the adjustment. Too bad AJ didn't learn that lesson before the 2007 playoffs.

Go back and look at the WCSF series. In fact, just look at the scores. High scoring games, the Spurs lost. Look at the games they won, and probably every single game they've played against the Mavericks since then, win or lose. All under 95 points. Whether the Spurs are playing smallball or not, they are playing their tempo and they are playing defense ever since that failure in the playoffs. If Parker scores 35 points and the Spurs give up 120 then they are playing Steve Nash ball and that doesn't win in the playoffs. Fortunately the Spurs learned their lesson. The only thing playing smallball did is make Dallas forget to play defense for the rest of the playoffs, which is why Miami beat them. It probably vaulted them past Phoenix because they don't play defense anyway.

The Spurs came out flat in a number of those games and gave up huge early leads while playing nearly zero defense. Dallas hit so many shots it looked like a Globetrotters game at times. You can never give up a big early lead to a great team and expect to win. The Mavs are a great team, and the Spurs did it one too many times.

The Spurs completely abandoned their philosophy with their two best players banged up, and it still took overtime of game seven, forced by a rare defensive mistake, to make it happen. That's a whole lot of shit in Dallas' favor, and they pulled it out by the absolute thinnest of margins. Sorry if I don't drink the Mavericks Kool-Aid based upon that information.

I'm glad you are of the opinion that your team has a chance. That's great. I know my team. I saw what they did wrong, and what they are doing right since that mistake. It's the difference between watching the 2006 Finals on TV and having the trophy handed to them in 2007. I fully expect them to repeat. They are capable of controlling the tempo of the game, and nothing the Mavericks can do will stop it. So maybe I'm wrong. We'll have to see. Hopefully it'll be fun to watch.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't know how you can sound so sure about that. Nothing has fundamentally changed between the two teams. In my opinion, it's a 50/50 proposition when these two teams get together. I think the Spurs would've won in a hypothetical playoff matchup this year because Dallas unfortunately chose late April to start playing some shitty ball. If the two teams had met earlier in the spring for a 7-game series, I think the Mavs would've won. San Antonio has four titles partly because they know how to pace themselves better for an 82-game season, something Dallas hasn't learned how to do. They peaked too early.
You're half right: Nothing has fundamentally changed about Dallas. The Spurs benched their centers for five games, of which they lost three. The small lineup trotted out by the coach had NO time together in the past, no idea how to play together or to fit into their new positions, and the coach refused to put the centers in even for defensive situations or to spell players that were tired or in foul trouble. The Spurs played the small lineup with first year Spur Michael Finley in the four spot floundering around looking for someone to cover and trying to block shots. They had Tim Duncan as the lone shot blocker, attempting to guard both sides of the lane to stop layups and dunks while doing so on two bad wheels. They had Nick Van Exel as the only backup for Tony Parker, who had a deep thigh bruise. They tried to run and shoot with a GREAT offensive team, and they tried to outscore a team loaded with scorers.

There's a shitload of difference from the Spurs side.

I agree that the Mavs could have won a series when the Spurs weren't playing well. If both teams are playing their best, they can't.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think Pop made any huge blunders in the 06 series
There's your first mistake.


The Mavs were built to beat the Spurs
That's nice to repeat. I hear it a lot on the radio. Every move Mark Cuban has made over the last seven years has been to try to beat the Spurs.


Strange as it may sound, I'd rather face San Antonio in the playoffs than Phoenix. Up-tempo teams just give us trouble, we were built more for traditional halfcourt teams like the Spurs.
That just makes no sense. Not even taking into consideration the game where Dallas decided not to show up, they had a relatively easy series against Phoenix. Considering that lead they choked away in game 1, they should have won the series in five games.

And allow me to say it again: the 2006 Spurs team that the Mavericks beat was not the traditional Spurs team. They turned the games into a shootout and tried to outscore them. The Mavericks almost ran out of time because an undermanned and injured Spurs team actually started to figure out how to play defense toward the end of the series. Too bad they didn't play defense in the first half of game seven, which is ultimately what killed them. I don't see how you can feel good about the Mavs' chances against a team they squeaked by while they were under such turmoil. I think the only way the Spurs can lose to the Mavericks in a playoff series is if they do something stupider than they did in 2006, and frankly it looks to me like you're whistling through the graveyard.

[Findog]

That just makes no sense. Not even taking into consideration the game where Dallas decided not to show up, they had a relatively easy series against Phoenix. Considering that lead they choked away in game 1, they should have won the series in five games.

Dallas just has no answer for Amare, he makes a big difference. It's all about matchups. We get consistently lit up by Nash, who plays with a chip on his shoulder against Dallas. You talk about how "superior" teams should never adjust on the fly and should just continue to play their game and that doesn't always make sense. Take Erick Dampier for example. It's not like he shuts anybody down, at the end of the day, Amare and Duncan are going to get their numbers against him, but we can afford to put him out there without doubleteaming all the time. It became very obvious halfway through the first quarter of G1 against Phoenix in the 06 Conference Finals that Dampier was useless, because he couldn't follow Tim Thomas out to the perimeter, where he camped out to shoot threes. So Avery sat him. Pop did what he had to do against Dallas.


I don't see how you can feel good about the chances against a team when you barely beat them under such turmoil. I think the only way the Spurs can lose to the Mavericks in a playoff series is if they do something stupider than they did in 2006, and frankly it looks to me like you're whistling through the graveyard

Again, I think you exaggerate how "banged up" and "undermanned" the Spurs were, and I don't question why Pop went small, there was nobody for Rasho and Nazr to guard. We're talking in circles here and both refusing to concede certain points, so I think we'll largely have to agree to disagree. I'll take my chances in a series against the Spurs, nothing guaranteed, but the lack of a playmaking PG who can create for others (maybe Devin can grow into the role), the lack of a defensive perimeter stopper against the likes of Nash, Davis, TMAC and Wade (again, maybe Devin can mature into that role), along with a lack of reliable postscoring, means I don't think this team has what it takes to win four straight rounds.

It's small consolation that the Mavs have the unique matchups to hang with the Spurs, but don't have the roster flexibility to be able to matchup against gimmick teams like Golden State. And we don't need a beast like Amare or Duncan, hell, just somebody like Juwan Howard to keep defenses honest. You need guys like Dampier and Diop to deal with Duncan, Yao, Boozer and Amare in order to get out of the West, but we get no offense from those guys, and that's an achilles heel against smallball teams like Golden State and Phoenix.

[Obstructed_View]

I agree. We'll have to just wait and see how it shakes out. I'll be interested to see how long Damp or Diop can cover Duncan on two good feet without a double team or without fouling out.

Back to the topic, there aren't ten players in the world better than Dirk.

[Findog]

I agree. We'll have to just wait and see how it shakes out. I'll be interested to see how long Damp or Diop can cover Duncan on two good feet without a double team or without fouling out.

Back to the topic, there aren't ten players in the world better than Dirk.

In my book, there's only about four: Duncan, Kobe, Wade and LeBron.

[Reggie Miller]

I think that I could probably devise some metric that makes Dirk look as bad as possible (like rebounding adjusted by position), but I wouldn't honestly believe that he wasn't in the top ten. I don't consider him top five, though. Defense matters.

(Yes, I realize that is a bit ironic coming from someone with the Reggie Miller screen name.)

[Findog]

I think that I could probably devise some metric that makes Dirk look as bad as possible (like rebounding adjusted by position), but I wouldn't honestly believe that he wasn't in the top ten. I don't consider him top five, though. Defense matters.

(Yes, I realize that is a bit ironic coming from someone with the Reggie Miller screen name.)

Who do you have ahead of him?

[Reggie Miller]

Who do you have ahead of him?

Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Yao
Kobe

Not necessarily in that order. By the end of next season, Dirk could crack the top five. I think Shaq is in steady decline by this point. Dirk's game doesn't allow him to get some of the rebounds and defensive counting stats that you expect from a player his size. That's my only knock on him. The issue isn't his relative mental toughness, it's his lack of a post game.

I will say that Dirk is one of my favorite players not on the Pacers or Spurs. Hard drinking Germans are fun when they aren't invading other nations.

[Obstructed_View]

Hard drinking Germans are fun when they aren't invading other nations.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/Dork/dirk.jpg
Word.

[Findog]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/Dork/dirk.jpg
Word.

you got that from freedarko, right?

[Findog]

Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Yao
Kobe

Not necessarily in that order. By the end of next season, Dirk could crack the top five. I think Shaq is in steady decline by this point. Dirk's game doesn't allow him to get some of the rebounds and defensive counting stats that you expect from a player his size. That's my only knock on him. The issue isn't his relative mental toughness, it's his lack of a post game.

I will say that Dirk is one of my favorite players not on the Pacers or Spurs. Hard drinking Germans are fun when they aren't invading other nations.

Hmm, I respect your opinion Reggie, so I'll just say that I'm mildly intrigued that you still consider Shaq a top-five player, but as you noted, he's in a steady decline.

[Reggie Miller]

Hmm, I respect your opinion Reggie, so I'll just say that I'm mildly intrigued that you still consider Shaq a top-five player, but as you noted, he's in a steady decline.

True Confession: In my mind, I had Dirk pegged at #6 or #7. When I sat down to come up with 5 or 6 names, it got pretty difficult. Shaq still has flashes of dominance, but that was a reach. Dirk probably is the fifth best player in the world. Somehow, I feel like I'm forgetting someone, though.

I have Dirk above LeBron, becuase I don't give a rat's ass about potential. The kid can dunk. Wake me when he can hit a jumper or post up Bruce Bowen. LeBron could easily prove to be a better player, but he's not today.

[ShoogarBear]

Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Yao
KobeLike I said, I still have to put Wade in there just because of the documented difference in stepping up.

And I agree Shaq is not a top five anymore.

[Findog]

True Confession: In my mind, I had Dirk pegged at #6 or #7. When I sat down to come up with 5 or 6 names, it got pretty difficult. Shaq still has flashes of dominance, but that was a reach. Dirk probably is the fifth best player in the world. Somehow, I feel like I'm forgetting someone, though.

I have Dirk above LeBron, becuase I don't give a rat's ass about potential. The kid can dunk. Wake me when he can hit a jumper or post up Bruce Bowen. LeBron could easily prove to be a better player, but he's not today.

Yeah, I might be reaching by putting LeBron above Dirk, but what about Wade? He showed a killer instinct in the Finals that Dirk lacked. Or do you attribute that to the floor opening up because of the doubleteams on Shaq?

[hater]

Like I said, I still have to put Wade in there just because of the documented difference in stepping up to the foul line.


fixed

[hater]

Like I said, I still have to put Wade in there just because of the documented difference in stepping up to the foul line.


fixed

[Obstructed_View]

you got that from freedarko, right?
Yeah, I just happened to remember it when I read the "hard drinking German" thing. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Shaq is still the nightmare that everyone has to try to figure out a way to defend. He makes everyone better just by the amount of game-planning he costs the opposing coaching staff. Over the hill or no, he's capable of pulling down 20 and 20 any given night on a very high field goal percentage, which is something very few players can do.

[Findog]

Yeah, I just happened to remember it when I read the "hard drinking German" thing. :lol

Is it just me or has Shoals degenerated into a parody of himself at this point? Half the time I can't tell what the hell he's talking about. Still, great comments section. Most of the time I skip the article and head straight there.

[Obstructed_View]

Is it just me or has Shoals degenerated into a parody of himself at this point? Half the time I can't tell what the hell he's talking about. Still, great comments section. Most of the time I skip the article and head straight there.
I don't know that I'd ever read him until the playoffs. He provided so much insight to me why people hate the Spurs; it's allowed me to really enjoy the suffering of opposing fans, especially those of the Suns.

Wait, I remember his "fuck" picture when Finley signed with the Spurs. Other than that, I don't know.

[Findog]

I don't know that I'd ever read him until the playoffs. He provided so much insight to me why people hate the Spurs; it's allowed me to really enjoy the suffering of opposing fans, especially those of the Suns.

Wait, I remember his "fuck" picture when Finley signed with the Spurs. Other than that, I don't know.

Yeah, he's definitely a Spurs hater. I think it's okay to hate the Spurs, it's just got to be for the right reasons (envy, as opposed to "they're boring").

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, he's definitely a Spurs hater. I think it's okay to hate the Spurs, it's just got to be for the right reasons (envy, as opposed to "they're boring").
Yeah, I should point some of the "we don't get no respect" Spurs fans that direction. It's very enlightening. I hated Jordan's Bulls for the same reason.

[Findog]

Yeah, I should point some of the "we don't get no respect" Spurs fans that direction. It's very enlightening. I hated Jordan's Bulls for the same reason.

I was so happy when Shaq got shipped to Miami, because the Lakers definitely had one, maybe two titles left in them with that duo. Whether the Spurs win 3 more titles or zero, their fans can be assured that the Duncan Era will live up to its potential. There's no chance that egos or lockerroom jealousies could ever derail this team. Just as D-Rob stepped aside and took a supporting role, Timmy will do the same when it's time. Kobe and Shaq were two huge drama queens.

[Obstructed_View]

I was so happy when Shaq got shipped to Miami, because the Lakers definitely had one, maybe two titles left in them with that duo.
You might say Shaq took Kobe's fourth ring with him to Miami.

[Findog]

You might say Shaq took Kobe's fourth ring with him to Miami.

I bet it annoyed Kobe to no end to watch Shaq willingly accept the sidekick role in the 06 playoffs.

[Reggie Miller]

Yeah, I might be reaching by putting LeBron above Dirk, but what about Wade? He showed a killer instinct in the Finals that Dirk lacked. Or do you attribute that to the floor opening up because of the doubleteams on Shaq?

From what I saw of those Finals (I more or less quit watching the playoffs after both of my teams were eliminated), Shaq still commands enough respect in the postseason to make it pretty easy for Wade. Also, the Finals left such a bad impression that it may subconsciously affect my appreciation of Wade's game. Talk about winning ugly.

Wade's size may make for a short career. How many injuries has he had already? (Real question. I can't remember.) I guess I dismiss him as another slashing guard. These guys usually aren't productive long term, unless they develop a reliable jumper and stay healthy. Wade is a decent shooter who may get better, but I really question his longevity.

Bottom line: I think I may be too biased to say that a short, often-injured guard is one of the five best players in the world, even if he was in fact one of the five best players in the world.

[Findog]

From what I saw of those Finals (I more or less quit watching the playoffs after both of my teams were eliminated), Shaq still commands enough respect in the postseason to make it pretty easy for Wade. Also, the Finals left such a bad impression that it may subconsciously affect my appreciation of Wade's game. Talk about winning ugly.

Wade's size may make for a short career. How many injuries has he had already? (Real question. I can't remember.) I guess I dismiss him as another slashing guard. These guys usually aren't productive long term, unless they develop a reliable jumper and stay healthy. Wade is a decent shooter who may get better, but I really question his longevity.

Bottom line: I think I may be too biased to say that a short, often-injured guard is one of the five best players in the world, even if he was in fact one of the five best players in the world.

Do you feel he earned the calls he got in the Finals? I'm not questioning that Dallas didn't do enough to win the series, but you have 3 games won by Miami by a grand total of 6 points. For all the talk of choking, a lucky bounce here or there might've made for a much different outcome. Anybody who's ever played basketball knows that.

What will always stick out for me is that he averaged 8 FTAs per game in their opening series against the Bulls and it went up in each successive series, culminating with 17 FTAs per game against Dallas. Yes, he was driving to the basket repeatedly but a lot of the calls fell under the ticky-tack variety.

He's a guy who has had the next Jordan label thrown his way a lot, and in terms of his competitive fire, playing with a chip on his shoulder and inventing slights, I agree the comparison works. But I don't think he'll ever be beloved as much as Jordan because of the way he blatantly sells calls by overflopping. Opposing fans never really got tired of the Bulls like they typically do other dynasties because of Jordan's popularity. I think Wade will always be a lightning rod for opposing fans.

[Reggie Miller]

Is it just me or has Shoals degenerated into a parody of himself at this point? Half the time I can't tell what the hell he's talking about. Still, great comments section. Most of the time I skip the article and head straight there.

I think he has. The notion that basketball has some great socio-political significance is ridiculous in the first place. "Analysis" of basketball through imaginary, subjective, and ever-changing criteria makes for some unbearable reading.

I guess I must be some sort of racist Neanderthal, becuase in my world view:

1. You play the game to win. Looking good and style are things that pimps should be worried about, not basketball players.

2. Writing is intended to be a form of communication, not some sort of self-congratulatory exercise. When you break down some of his pieces, they are nearly devoid of actual content. Using many polysyllabic words may make you seem clever, but they don't make you wise.

[Obstructed_View]

Wade is Manu with more athletic ability, and more opportunities to handle the ball. He earned as many, if not more, calls in the Finals than Dirk did against the Spurs. If you complain about one, you have to complain about both. The answer to both is the same: Should have played smarter defense.

[Reggie Miller]

Do you feel he earned the calls he got in the Finals?

Going by memory, no. However, I bet if we got all of the games on tape and watched them, we could find a few legitimate calls. (If nothing else, I seem to recall some deliberate frustration fouls in one game.)

Like anything else in life, you have to make your own luck. In other words, you have to be willing to penetrate the lane and take some hard hits in order to get the ticky-tack and flop-induced fouls. In a way, I have to give Wade credit for stepping up and doing what he needed to do.

On the other hand, it got pretty ridiculous. I don't like to see a guy being rewarded for plowing into a group of people and throwing up his arms at the end. One useful guideline for the refs could be, "if I swallowed this whistle, would he even have considered taking that so-called shot?" I appreciate a little gamesmanship every now and then, but I didn't like seeing a Finals decided on that margin.

[Obstructed_View]

Since the Heat won in six games, I'd say they had to do something other than get 20 free throws from a guard to win.

[Findog]

I think he has. The notion that basketball has some great socio-political significance is ridiculous in the first place. "Analysis" of basketball through imaginary, subjective, and ever-changing criteria makes for some unbearable reading.

I guess I must be some sort of racist Neanderthal, becuase in my world view:

1. You play the game to win. Looking good and style are things that pimps should be worried about, not basketball players.

2. Writing is intended to be a form of communication, not some sort of self-congratulatory exercise. When you break down some of his pieces, they are nearly devoid of actual content. Using many polysyllabic words may make you seem clever, but they don't make you wise.

No, I think being turned off by some of Shoals' more mastubatory exercises doesn't make you a racist. If anything, I get turned off by white hipsters aping hip-hop culture in some sort of ill-considered attempt to cultivate "cool." Kind of like having a Miles Davis record on your shelf that you never listen to.

Don't get me wrong, style and personality is an important, albeit secondary part of basketball. Pistol Pete is one of my all-time favorite players, and Gilbert Arenas' personality is a big part of why I like him, in addition to what he does on the court. And it's true that while the Riley/Van Gundy Knicks and Mourning/Hardaway Heat won consistently, it's no surprise that their abortions rarely show up on ESPN Classic. It was just a beating to watch those teams. People call the Spurs boring...

But ultimately he's looking at the game through the wrong lens most of the time. I hate the Spurs, but that's mainly division rivalry, envy, sort of thing. It's just facile and stupid to dismiss them on aesthetic grounds. For somebody who fancies himself as "edgy" and "ahead of the curve," it's interesting that he clings to the "Spurs are boring" meme.

[Findog]

Since the Heat won in six games, I'd say they had to do something other than get 20 free throws from a guard to win.

Riley giving more minutes to Zo after G2 went a long way.

[Reggie Miller]

Since the Heat won in six games, I'd say they had to do something other than get 20 free throws from a guard to win.

And you would be right to say that.

I firmly belive there is no such thing as being "clutch," etc. The basket you missed in the first quarter was worth the same two or three points as the last shot of the game. A game that appears to be decided by a few FTAs was almost always really decided by turnovers, rebounding, or the types of defensive plays that aren't scored (altering shots, etc.).

However, it sure looks bad when you have a guard taking 20 FTs in close games. My real point is that getting 20 FTs in a game doesn't necessarily make you a good (or a bad) player. Therefore, Wade's performance in the 2006 Finals is not that impressive to me.

[Obstructed_View]

And you would be right to say that.

I firmly belive there is no such thing as being "clutch," etc. The basket you missed in the first quarter was worth the same two or three points as the last shot of the game. A game that appears to be decided by a few FTAs was almost always really decided by turnovers, rebounding, or the types of defensive plays that aren't scored (altering shots, etc.).

However, it sure looks bad when you have a guard taking 20 FTs in close games. My real point is that getting 20 FTs in a game doesn't necessarily make you a good (or a bad) player. Therefore, Wade's performance in the 2006 Finals is not that impressive to me.
I completely disagree. One's ability to step up and execute when the pressure is highest is the most valuable commodity in sports. The very same Maverick fans that cite Dirk's newly found aggression against the Spurs to produce trip after trip to the line can't seem to see the same situation with a player in Dwayne Wade who has been known for his entire career as someone who goes into the paint without regard for his health. Manu's free throws in the fourth quarter against Utah might "look" bad to someone not smart enough to know the difference, or to someone with a rooting interest in Utah, but it doesn't change what it was, and Wade's ability to do it against Dallas was only the difference in the series because the vastly superior team didn't step up when the pressure was highest.

[Reggie Miller]

No, I think being turned off by some of Shoals' more mastubatory exercises doesn't make you a racist. If anything, I get turned off by white hipsters aping hip-hop culture in some sort of ill-considered attempt to cultivate "cool." Kind of like having a Miles Davis record on your shelf that you never listen to.

Don't get me wrong, style and personality is an important, albeit secondary part of basketball. Pistol Pete is one of my all-time favorite players, and Gilbert Arenas' personality is a big part of why I like him, in addition to what he does on the court. And it's true that while the Riley/Van Gundy Knicks and Mourning/Hardaway Heat won consistently, it's no surprise that their abortions rarely show up on ESPN Classic. It was just a beating to watch those teams. People call the Spurs boring...

But ultimately he's looking at the game through the wrong lens most of the time. I hate the Spurs, but that's mainly division rivalry, envy, sort of thing. It's just facile and stupid to dismiss them on aesthetic grounds. For somebody who fancies himself as "edgy" and "ahead of the curve," it's interesting that he clings to the "Spurs are boring" meme.

Truthfully, I am not a "real" APBRmetrician. I enjoy statistical analysis, because I believe it to be useful. Baseball was my first love, and that probably has something to do with it.

However, I would be the first to admit that my reasons for liking or admiring a particular player are almost entirely subjective and personal. For example, Reggie is probably my favorite player of all time, but never in my life did I really believe that he was even the best 2 guard in the league. Miller certainly is not the humble role model that Duncan or Bowen are.

I'm not as objective as I try to be, but I know I do much better than most sports fans. For example, I hate Kobe. (This is not an exaggeration; I really hate the guy and never get tired of pointing that out to people.) Objectively, I don't think he is the best player in the league, and there are statistics that do show that. However, I am honest enough with myself to realize that my real motivation is my hatred of all things Bryant.

[Reggie Miller]

I completely disagree. One's ability to step up and execute when the pressure is highest is the most valuable commodity in sports.

I think I must have been unclear. The ability to handle pressure is the most critical ability in professional sports. The idea that missing the last shot of the game meant more than all of the other missed shots is empirically wrong.

Here's an example of what I mean. Whether or not Bowen fouled LeBron James at the end of Game 3 did not determine the outcome of that game, nor did the fact that James missed the subsequent three-point shot mean that James is not "clutch." What is much more important is all of the other threes the Cavs missed in that game. Theoretically, the game wouldn't have even been close if the Cavs had shot 33% from behind the arc. (I understand that if you change a possession in a game that it can radically alter what "would have happened next.")

[Obstructed_View]

I think I must have been unclear. The ability to handle pressure is the most critical ability in professional sports. The idea that missing the last shot of the game meant more than all of the other missed shots is empirically wrong.

Here's an example of what I mean. Whether or not Bowen fouled LeBron James at the end of Game 3 did not determine the outcome of that game, nor did the fact that James missed the subsequent three-point shot mean that James is not "clutch." What is much more important is all of the other threes the Cavs missed in that game. Theoretically, the game wouldn't have even been close if the Cavs had shot 33% from behind the arc. (I understand that if you change a possession in a game that it can radically alter what "would have happened next.")
When you know that you have to make a play or your team loses you have a choice. Some guys consistently do one thing and others do something else in those specific instances. That's the discussion of clutch. What they did in the first half, while equally important statistically, doesn't enter into the conversation because of the lack of the associated pressure that comes with a do-or-die situation. Cluchness is, as Shaq said, making them "when it matters".

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

What will always stick out for me is that he averaged 8 FTAs per game in their opening series against the Bulls and it went up in each successive series, culminating with 17 FTAs per game against Dallas. Yes, he was driving to the basket repeatedly but a lot of the calls fell under the ticky-tack variety.

Kirk owns him for some unexplainable reason.

[Reggie Miller]

Cluchness is, as Shaq said, making them "when it matters".


I can't figure out if I am miscommunicating, or if we just disagree. All of the points matter. A 14' jumper at the 1:58 minute mark in the fourth quarter is still worth just two points. The difference is entirely subjective. Some players handle pressure better, but people assume that they are able to correctly identify the "critical moment" in a game. That's largely a process of mythology, not emprical analysis. (I admit that the last shot of a one-possession game is pretty easy to identify.)

[CharlieMac]

Did someone say Scola? Come on now...

I can't put Lebron ahead of Dirk.

[Findog]

Kirk owns him for some unexplainable reason.


A female friend of mine that doesn't like or follow basketball at all caught a glimpse of him once and said he looks like Harry Potter on steroids. I don't know what that has to do with the topic at hand, but I felt like sharing.

[dallaskd]

I would give my opinion but im a sixers bandwagoner

[monosylab1k]

I would give my opinion but im a sixers bandwagoner
good, nobody wants to hear your bullshit anyways

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:wtf :lol

[dallaskd]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/Dork/dirk.jpg
Word.

:lol

[Obstructed_View]

I can't figure out if I am miscommunicating, or if we just disagree. All of the points matter. A 14' jumper at the 1:58 minute mark in the fourth quarter is still worth just two points. The difference is entirely subjective. Some players handle pressure better, but people assume that they are able to correctly identify the "critical moment" in a game. That's largely a process of mythology, not emprical analysis. (I admit that the last shot of a one-possession game is pretty easy to identify.)
All the points are worth the same, but when you score in the first half, you have the luxury of not knowing the future, so you have no pressure other than the immediate score. When time is running out, and the need to make a play becomes critical to the outcome of the game, and your number of opportunities are limited, that changes the way players react. It's the most natural thing in the world, and I'm having trouble believing you don't understand it perfectly. What Manu did in the fourth quarter of game 4 against Cleveland is clutch. It's the ability to step up by sheer force of will and competetive drive. A guy who shoots 90 percent from the free throw line might drop to 60 percent with less than a minute on the clock, and another guy might do exactly the opposite. The fact that you can sink two free throws in your driveway doesn't mean you can go into MSG when it's packed full of people and do the same thing.

[mavs>spurs2]

All the points are worth the same, but when you score in the first half, you have the luxury of not knowing the future, so you have no pressure other than the immediate score. When time is running out, and the need to make a play becomes critical to the outcome of the game, and your number of opportunities are limited, that changes the way players react. It's the most natural thing in the world, and I'm having trouble believing you don't understand it perfectly. What Manu did in the fourth quarter of game 4 against Cleveland is clutch. It's the ability to step up by sheer force of will and competetive drive. A guy who shoots 90 percent from the free throw line might drop to 60 percent with less than a minute on the clock, and another guy might do exactly the opposite. The fact that you can sink two free throws in your driveway doesn't mean you can go into MSG when it's packed full of people and do the same thing.

Well said :tu

It's that thing that players either have, or they don't. There's no in between.

[Magic_Johnson]

Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
that's all

[Reggie Miller]

All the points are worth the same, but when you score in the first half, you have the luxury of not knowing the future, so you have no pressure other than the immediate score. When time is running out, and the need to make a play becomes critical to the outcome of the game, and your number of opportunities are limited, that changes the way players react. It's the most natural thing in the world, and I'm having trouble believing you don't understand it perfectly. What Manu did in the fourth quarter of game 4 against Cleveland is clutch. It's the ability to step up by sheer force of will and competetive drive. A guy who shoots 90 percent from the free throw line might drop to 60 percent with less than a minute on the clock, and another guy might do exactly the opposite. The fact that you can sink two free throws in your driveway doesn't mean you can go into MSG when it's packed full of people and do the same thing.

I see we are miscommunicating then. I don't disagree with you.

From a mathematical standpoint, all points are equal. Subjectively, they are not, especially when teams usually play differently in the fourth quarter (particularly the last two minutes). However, adapting to pressure is also a subjective matter. In other words, we assume that we can know the heart of a player, but we only empirically "see" the actual outcome, or the points on the scoreboard.

HYPOTHETICAL: The Spurs are scheduled to play in Charlotte, but the Spurs do not show up ready to play. At the end of the first quarter, Spurs trail by 10. In the second quarter, Ginobili takes over the game, including going 4/4 from 3 point range in the final minutes of the half. At halftime, the score is tied 45-45; Manu has 20 points in 16 minutes. In the second half, the Spurs come out re-energized, but they still do not match the Bobcats, who continue to play over their heads. In the final seconds, Manu misses a three-pointer for the win. Final Score = Charlotte 90, San Antonio 88. Manu's final line is 40/5/2 in 35 minutes with 72% shooting, incl. 88% from 3 pt. range.

In this example, was Manu "clutch" or not? Obviously, if he does not have a near career game that night, the Spurs are never in a position to win in the final seconds. On the other hand, he missed a wide-open three-pointer that would have won the game. In my opinion, the critical period in that game was not the final seconds of the fourth quarter, but the opening minute or two of the third quarter. Manu puts the team in a position to win, they pretend to listen to Pop at halftime, then the rest of the team proceeds to lay an egg in the second half.

My point is that when something like this happens, there is always a certain percentage of people who attack the player who misses that last shot. Sometimes this may be justified, but I think most people would agree that the above hypothetical tends to show just how reliable Ginobili can be under extreme pressure. In the example, the rest of the team's play put Ginobili in a situation where he had to be perfect for the team to win. Missing that last shot says nothing about how "clutch" Ginobili may or may not be.

Okay, an extreme example, I know. However, it was just this sort of thing that got me started down this path. Fans assume that we can appreciate and interpret just how "clutch" a particular player is based on their play. I am saying that you still have to look at the big picture. Since the scoreboard doesn't care when the points were scored, the "true" critical moment of a particular game may not be in the final seconds.

[Findog]

Final Score = Charlotte 90, San Antonio 88.

That would just be the Bobcats beating a team they're supposed to beat. No surprises there.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

^ :tu

[Obstructed_View]

HYPOTHETICAL: The Spurs are scheduled to play in Charlotte, but the Spurs do not show up ready to play. At the end of the first quarter, Spurs trail by 10. In the second quarter, Ginobili takes over the game, including going 4/4 from 3 point range in the final minutes of the half. At halftime, the score is tied 45-45; Manu has 20 points in 16 minutes. In the second half, the Spurs come out re-energized, but they still do not match the Bobcats, who continue to play over their heads. In the final seconds, Manu misses a three-pointer for the win. Final Score = Charlotte 90, San Antonio 88. Manu's final line is 40/5/2 in 35 minutes with 72% shooting, incl. 88% from 3 pt. range.

In this example, was Manu "clutch" or not? Obviously, if he does not have a near career game that night, the Spurs are never in a position to win in the final seconds. On the other hand, he missed a wide-open three-pointer that would have won the game. In my opinion, the critical period in that game was not the final seconds of the fourth quarter, but the opening minute or two of the third quarter. Manu puts the team in a position to win, they pretend to listen to Pop at halftime, then the rest of the team proceeds to lay an egg in the second half.

My point is that when something like this happens, there is always a certain percentage of people who attack the player who misses that last shot. Sometimes this may be justified, but I think most people would agree that the above hypothetical tends to show just how reliable Ginobili can be under extreme pressure. In the example, the rest of the team's play put Ginobili in a situation where he had to be perfect for the team to win. Missing that last shot says nothing about how "clutch" Ginobili may or may not be.

Okay, an extreme example, I know. However, it was just this sort of thing that got me started down this path. Fans assume that we can appreciate and interpret just how "clutch" a particular player is based on their play. I am saying that you still have to look at the big picture. Since the scoreboard doesn't care when the points were scored, the "true" critical moment of a particular game may not be in the final seconds.

Excellent example. I think you and I will agree that properly defining "clutch" would require looking at someone's body of work over a period of time, and if a player is able to take over games, the time that it happens isn't the critical factor. Steve Nash can score like crazy at the end of games. In fact, he's better at it when his team has an insurmountable lead. It doesn't make him clutch.

[Reggie Miller]

That would just be the Bobcats beating a team they're supposed to beat. No surprises there.

I wondered who would end up spiking that set-up. :toast

[Reggie Miller]

Excellent example. I think you and I will agree that properly defining "clutch" would require looking at someone's body of work over a period of time, and if a player is able to take over games, the time that it happens isn't the critical factor. Steve Nash can score like crazy at the end of games. In fact, he's better at it when his team has an insurmountable lead. It doesn't make him clutch.

Yep. I probably should have busted out my hypothetical earlier, but it required using a calculator. (Being at work limits my internet productivity.)

What got me started on this train of thought was the treatment of Alex Rodriguez by NY fans and media. In baseball, this sort of thing drives me crazy, because the critical period is usually the 6th-8th innings, or when you are hitting against middle relievers (you know, the guys who aren't good enough to start or close). Realistically, very few games are ever won in the 9th inning. Of course, baseball has no clock, so it's not directly comparable to the other sports.

[TheAuthority]

1)Duncan
2)LeBron
3)Nash
4)Garnett
5)Kobe
6)Wade
7)Boozer
8)Yao
9)VC (he'd be higher on the list if he actually tried)
10) Dwight Howard

[sabar]

Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Nash, non-old Shaq, anything else is a serious reach and even Nash is debatable.

[Mr.ChugDynasty]

1)Duncan
2)LeBron
3)Nash
4)Garnett
5)Kobe
6)Wade
7)Boozer
8)Yao
9)VC (he'd be higher on the list if he actually tried)
10) Dwight Howard

Don't be an idiot

and fuck off and die

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

A female friend of mine that doesn't like or follow basketball at all caught a glimpse of him once and said he looks like Harry Potter on steroids. I don't know what that has to do with the topic at hand, but I felt like sharing.
Ricky Rubio looks like him but w/o the steroids. He could of tried out for the part lol.

[mavs>spurs2]

1)Duncan
2)LeBron
3)Nash
4)Garnett
5)Kobe
6)Wade
7)Boozer
8)Yao
9)VC (he'd be higher on the list if he actually tried)
10) Dwight Howard

VC, Dwight Howard, and Boozer are better than Dirk?!?!? :lmao

[TheAuthority]

VC, Dwight Howard, and Boozer are better than Dirk?!?!? :lmao

Did Boozer not take out a team, and dominate a team that Nowitzki had no answers for? Not only that, he has better numbers than Dirk has as well. He actually plays defense and rebounds. Boozer is undebatably better to me. The others are debatable, but I still feel like they're better players. Could Dirk hold Howard? No. Could Howard hold Dirk? Yes. And Carter probably has the most raw talent out of anyone currently in the NBA not named LeBron.

[Findog]

Did Boozer not take out a team, and dominate a team that Nowitzki had no answers for?

The Utah Jazz took out the Golden State Warriors. I watched that series, I don't remember Superman (aka Carlos Boozer) playing one-on-five. Deron Williams >>>> Jason Terry.

How many series wins does Carlos Boozer have? 2. How many Finals has he led the Jazz to? 0. How many series wins does Dirk have? 8. How many Finals appearances has he led his team to? 1. Very convenient to just examine the 2007 playoffs and ignore everything else.


Not only that, he has better numbers than Dirk has as well.

He gets 3 more rebounds per game than Dirk. Dirk outscores him by four.


He actually plays defense hahahahahahahahahahahaha


and rebounds.

So does Dirk.


Boozer is undebatably better to me.

And you are undebatedly out of your depth on this topic.

Dirk > Boozer. Period. End of Discussion. Utah had a big, strong playmaking PG, something Dallas doesn't have. Trade Jason Terry straight up for Deron Williams and the Jazz don't beat Golden State either. Four of the five games in the Uta-GS went to the wire, the lone blowout win was by GS. It's not like the Jazz were leagues above the Warriors.


And Carter probably has the most raw talent out of anyone currently in the NBA not named LeBron

Maybe so, but he sucks. He's a loser. I don't want somebody on my team that is going to tip off the opposing bench to what play we're running. Fuck Vince Carter.

[TheAuthority]

The Utah Jazz took out the Golden State Warriors. I watched that series, I don't remember Superman (aka Carlos Boozer) playing one-on-five. Deron Williams >>>> Jason Terry.


What does Deron Williams being better than Terry mean? Not much. Who has the better supporting cast? Nowitzki, by far. A huge margin.



He gets 3 more rebounds per game than Dirk. Dirk outscores him by four.

Anyone would take 3 rebounds per game over 4 points per game.



He actually plays defense

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

So you think that he doesn't play defense? What's it say about a man 7 feet tall that doesn't even average a block a game? Now THAT'S hilarious. Dirk is the softest dude in the NBA.



and rebounds.

So does Dirk.

No, he doesn't. Dirk is 7 feet tall and doesn't even grab 10 rebounds a game. That's pathetic. Jason Kidd rebounds as much as he does. He doesn't rebound. He *attempts* to rebound.




And you are undebatedly out of your depth on this topic.

Really? It seems I've got you pegged at every turn.



Dirk > Boozer. Period. End of Discussion. Utah had a big, strong playmaking PG, something Dallas doesn't have. Trade Jason Terry straight up for Deron Williams and the Jazz don't beat Golden State either. Four of the five games in the Uta-GS went to the wire, the lone blowout win was by GS. It's not like the Jazz were leagues above the Warriors.

Really? I don't think it's the end of the story. Swap Nowitzki and Boozer, do the Mavs lose to the Warriors? Of course not. Dirk, as I said, is the softest player in the league. The guy's got no post game to speak of. He can't post up guards. He can't play defense. He can't rebound. He can't block shots. He does nothing well except shoot and score. Boozer can play the post or shoot jump shots. He can rebound. He can defend. Maybe you didn't consider that in your theorem. Sorry, hate to burst your bubble -- Boozer is better.

[Findog]

What does Deron Williams being better than Terry mean? Not much. Who has the better supporting cast? Nowitzki, by far. A huge margin.

Baron Davis: 6'3, 215 lbs
Jason Richarson: 6'6, 225 lbs

Jason Terry: 6'2, 180 lbs
Devin Harris: 6'3, 185 lbs

Deron Williams: 6'3, 205 lbs

See the difference? If there's one thing I remember from the Dal-GS series, it's Davis and Richardson taking their man off the dribble repeatedly. And with Dampier out with a torn rotator cuff, there was nobody back to protect the rim from dribble penetration. Dirk went from 25 and 9 in the regular season to 19 and 10 against GS. Suckass by his standards, but he was playing out of position. That series was lost in the backcourt.





Anyone would take 3 rebounds per game over 4 points per game.

:lol :lol :lol :lol

Yeah, 3 rebounds don't automatically translate into points. Boozer's a fine player, and in two years, he'll probably surpass Nowitzki, but he's not there yet. Hey, it's a good thing Dirk upped his rebounding total against the Warriors from 9 in the regular season to 11 in the playoffs. Those two rebounds sure were more important than the 6 points we lost from him. Are you serious?






So you think that he doesn't play defense? What's it say about a man 7 feet tall that doesn't even average a block a game? Now THAT'S hilarious. Dirk is the softest dude in the NBA.

No, Boozer doesn't play defense. You're a Spurs fan, didn't you watch him get clowned repeatedly in the conference Finals? Dirk is a decent help defender and lousy on the ball defender. That's why we signed Dampier, to have somebody to guard opposing bigs like Amare, Duncan and Yao so Dirk wouldn't get into foul trouble doing so. With Dampier out with a torn rotator cuff in the GS series, Dirk slid over to C.






No, he doesn't. Dirk is 7 feet tall and doesn't even grab 10 rebounds a game. That's pathetic. Jason Kidd rebounds as much as he does. He doesn't rebound. He *attempts* to rebound.

He's averaged 10 a game three times in his career, he averaged 11 against Golden State, he averaged 9 per game in the regular season last year. Why don't you get your facts straight before you pop off?





Really? It seems I've got you pegged at every turn.

Considering you can't marshall facts to support your opinions and are speaking nonsense, no, not so much.



Of course not. Dirk, as I said, is the softest player in the league.

That's funny. He's not softer than Vince Carter. If he were, he wouldn't be a top-six player. Softer than say Duncan, Nash, Wade, or Kobe? Sure. But "softest player in the league." Indefensible hyperbole and you know it.


He can't play defense. He plays better defense than Boozer.


He can't rebound.

If you call 9 rebounds per game "unable to rebound," so be it.



He can't block shots.

Dirk - 0.8 blocks per game
Boozer - 0.3 blocks per game.

Neither one of them can, so why is that a blemish for Dirk but something to be glossed over for Boozer?


He does nothing well except shoot and score.

And rebound, and help-side defense, and slashing to the rim by taking smaller players off the dribble. A 7-foot shooting guard is what he is. Yeah, Avery could instruct Dirk to go park his ass on the low blocks with his back to the basket for 40 minutes but it would take away from his strengths and force him to do something that he's mediocre at. He gets plenty of points in the paint by taking smaller guys off the dribble and slashing to the hoop. Your sample size of 6 games against the Warriors doesn't tell the full story. Tim Duncan can hit an 18-foot jumper consistently, but is that what he should do all game long? To have a 7-footer that can shoot like a guard and handle like a guard is a dangerous weapon. He's got his flaws, I'm not making him out to be something he's not, but as of the 06-07 season, the last sample we have, he's better than Boozer. Sorry. Boozer and the Jazz beat the Warriors, and Dallas didn't, but they got taken to the cleaners by San Antonio, a team Dallas beat and has beaten 8 out of the last 12 meetings. Playoff series are all about matchups, and the Warriors as a team were constructed to beat Dallas.


Boozer can play the post or shoot jump shots. He can rebound. He can defend. Maybe you didn't consider that in your theorem. Sorry, hate to burst your bubble -- Boozer is better

No, I took all that into account, and Dirk is better. Better Scorer, equal or better at defense, more shooting range, better passer, more blocks, better ft-shooter. It's not that close. Boozer gives you two more rebounds per game and Dirk gets you five more points. Boozer has a much better post game than Dirk but he's not as efficient or as prolific a scorer. Sorry, Dirk > Boozer. Maybe in 2010 that will change, but not now.

[Avitus1]

Duncan
Parker
Nash
Garnett
Kobe
Shaq
Wade
LeBron
Arenas
Kidd

[Findog]

Duncan
Parker
Nash
Garnett
Kobe
Shaq
Wade
LeBron
Arenas
Kidd

Dirk > Parker, Nash, Garnett, Arenas and Kidd. Sorry, but Parker is just homer talk.

[SpursWillOwn]

Dirk in crunch time? Cassell, Horry, Manu>Dirk

[Findog]

Dirk in crunch time? Cassell, Horry, Manu>Dirk

Wake me when a GM decides he'd rather have those three guys than Dirk.

Nobody would give a fuck about Horry if he played his entire career for Milwaukee.

[SpursWillOwn]

The lone MVP trophy would highlight Dirk's career.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Which is already more then vince has ever done.

[Findog]

The lone MVP trophy would highlight Dirk's career.

Up to this point I would say a Finals appearance is more meaningful than a regular season award. It's one thing to hear Warrior and Heat fan dog the guy, but you'd think Spurs fan could muster a little more respect.