I can name 10 players more CLUTCH than Dirk

[lebomb]

.........I guarantee you that.

1. wade
2. V. carter
3. Iverson
4. Manu
5. T. Parker
6. Timmy
7. Nash
8. Kobe
9. Mcgrady
10. Garnett

...........Hell, I can name another 10 if I needed to.

11. anyone on GoldenState............LOL.

[Findog]

You're a fuckin' retard if you think Carter, T-Mac and KG are more clutch than Dirk.

Dirk never tipped off the opposing team's bench as to what play was being run.

Do you know anything about basketball?

[monosylab1k]

Carter :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
Iverson :lmao :lmao
McGrady :lmao :lmao
Garnett :lmao

I'm not saying there aren't 10 players more clutch than Dirk (there probably are) but you just compiled the SHITTIEST list ever to prove your point.

[monosylab1k]

Three threads about him in 2 days? Obviously Spurs fans are concerned with the success of Dirk's offseason workouts.

[Pride]

um...Baron Davis should be #2. And I think that Vince Carter, Garnett, and Iverson are not more clutch than Dirk.

[Pride]

I can't believe that a fellow "Spurs fan" forgot ROBERT HORRY!!!Of all people!

[Obstructed_View]

Carter :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
Iverson :lmao :lmao
McGrady :lmao :lmao
Garnett :lmao

I'm not saying there aren't 10 players more clutch than Dirk (there probably are) but you just compiled the SHITTIEST list ever to prove your point.
I agree. Carmelo? Horry? Billups? Jack?

BTW, mono, Garnett needs at least two more :lmao

[Mister Sinister]

.........I guarantee you that.

1. wade
2. V. carter
3. Iverson
4. Manu
5. T. Parker
6. Timmy
7. Nash
8. Kobe
9. Mcgrady
10. Garnett

...........Hell, I can name another 10 if I needed to.

11. anyone on GoldenState............LOL.
You forgot Horry!? Go home!

[SRJ]

Horry is more clutch than Dirk, but I'd rather have Dirk. Even if Horry was 25 years old right now.

[Obstructed_View]

Actually, there aren't more than a couple of guys on any list above that I'd pick before Dirk.

[Findog]

Horry is more clutch than Dirk, but I'd rather have Dirk. Even if Horry was 25 years old right now.

Most sensible thing in this thread so far. I agree. Talent vs Clutchness (is that even a word?) has to be measured against each other.

[SRJ]

Most sensible thing in this thread so far. I agree. Talent vs Clutchness (is that even a word?) has to be measured against each other.

Well, my reasoning is that guys who are famous for a few clutch shots and nothing else need to play with great teams and great players to be in a position to do clutch things.

Steve Kerr didn't hit many clutch shots when he was in Cleveland.

[icem]

vince carter has hit more clutch shots than dirk and its not even close....

[Findog]

vince carter has hit more clutch shots than dirk and its not even close....

Oh yeah? Name them. The game-winning jumper against Philly in Game 7 of the East Semifinals? Oh wait...Last time I saw Vince, he was dribbling the ball off his foot against Cleveland. I'm surprised a Spurs fan would even be debating this, considering Dirk sent your team home.

[Findog]

Well, my reasoning is that guys who are famous for a few clutch shots and nothing else need to play with great teams and great players to be in a position to do clutch things.

Steve Kerr didn't hit many clutch shots when he was in Cleveland.

Exactly right. Nobody would be talking about Horry at all if he played for Milwaukee his entire career.

[lefty]

You're a fuckin' retard if you think Carter, T-Mac and KG are more clutch than Dirk.
Dirk never tipped off the opposing team's bench as to what play was being run.

Do you know anything about basketball?


I agree

[Leetonidas]

He is by no means clutch as has a big vagina, but he is a damn good player.

[yourcheatinheart]

dirk is about as clutch as an automatic transmission.

[Findog]

dirk is about as clutch as an automatic transmission.

Tell me what Nash and Amare have done? Not a goddamn thing.

[da_suns_fan__]

How in the world can even a Spurs fan consider Tony Parker clutch?

Duncan? Of course.

Ginobili? Absolutely.

But Parker? He still makes A LOT of mistakes.

[yourcheatinheart]

Tell me what Nash and Amare have done? Not a goddamn thing.


http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/meeks4president/captd496364c6882449a9237ad4eccd8378.mavericks_warr iors_basketball_cams122.jpg

[sprrs]

How in the world can even a Spurs fan consider Tony Parker clutch?

Duncan? Of course.

Ginobili? Absolutely.

But Parker? He still makes A LOT of mistakes.

Not yet. He was incredibly clutch this past postseason, but one good year is not enough to call him clutch, considering how many times he's disappeared on us before.

He's getting there though. He's not afraid to have the ball in big game situations, which is all we can ask for. A few more postseasons like this last one, and he'll be there.

[Findog]

This gets me so hot! http://www.beyondchurchstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/gay%20boys.jpg

So I ask again, what have Amare and Nash ever done?

Don't leave the bench. Not that it matters, since your team will never sniff a Finals or beat a championship-caliber team:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1325/862344179_4069d5a4e1_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/513461394_0ef40b4fc3_o.jpg

[icem]

Oh yeah? Name them. The game-winning jumper against Philly in Game 7 of the East Semifinals? Oh wait...Last time I saw Vince, he was dribbling the ball off his foot against Cleveland. I'm surprised a Spurs fan would even be debating this, considering Dirk sent your team home.


youve got to be kidding me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48JPST1q-qY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P441BC6Tf2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc4OCOb0TDs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Opom6wgy5I

[Findog]

youve got to be kidding me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48JPST1q-qY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P441BC6Tf2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc4OCOb0TDs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Opom6wgy5I

You've got to be kidding me. Regular season games???? Or first round games against shitty Leastern teams? Give me a fucking break. Dirk's taken a team to a Finals. Vince couldn't get out of the second round in the Leastern Conference.

Dirk never tipped off an opposing team's bench to what his team was running. Dirk's had his share of his clutch performances, but even if he didn't, he's still more clutch and more of a winner, just because of that. Vince Carter is just about the only Tar Heel besides Joe Forte to be a total fucking loser in the pros.

Whether it's talent or coming through in the clutch, Dirk >>>>> Vince Carter.

Has Vince ever dropped 50 in a pivotal conference finals game?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

Oh wait, he's never even made it that far. He sure was clutch against the Sixers when it counted.

[Switchman]

How in the world can even a Spurs fan consider Tony Parker clutch?

Duncan? Of course.

Ginobili? Absolutely.

But Parker? He still makes A LOT of mistakes.

Well Manu has fucked up plenty of clutch time inbounds and what not. I think Parker has proven himself.

[yourcheatinheart]

So I ask again, what have Amare and Nash ever done?

Don't leave the bench. Not that it matters, since your team will never sniff a Finals or beat a championship-caliber team:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1325/862344179_4069d5a4e1_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/513461394_0ef40b4fc3_o.jpg


haha, your always good for a laugh findog. that's a cute pic of you and your dude, you two look very happy together. even if the suns never make it to the finals again, i can take comfort in the fact that they never put their own hands around thier own necks and....http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/meeks4president/consciouschokingadultstep1_L.jpg.

THE END motherfucker.

[Findog]

THE END motherfucker

Indeed. Suns are noncontenders. Dallas > Phoenix. The End.

[icem]

You've got to be kidding me. Regular season games???? Or first round games against shitty Leastern teams? Give me a fucking break. Dirk's taken a team to a Finals. Vince couldn't get out of the second round in the Leastern Conference.

Dirk never tipped off an opposing team's bench to what his team was running. Dirk's had his share of his clutch performances, but even if he didn't, he's still more clutch and more of a winner, just because of that. Vince Carter is just about the only Tar Heel besides Joe Forte to be a total fucking loser in the pros.

Whether it's talent or coming through in the clutch, Dirk >>>>> Vince Carter.

Has Vince ever dropped 50 in a pivotal conference finals game?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

Oh wait, he's never even made it that far. He sure was clutch against the Sixers when it counted.


dirk has had more talent on his teams, of course hes got farther into the playoffs. vince dropped 50 in a playoff game too....so ?

you say he wasn't clutch against the sixers because he missed that one game winner, but ignore dirks bricked free throws in the clutch, and how about going 2-13 in game 6 against the warriors ? PATHETIC

VC is more clutch than that 7 foot vagina dirk......

[Findog]

dirk has had more talent on his teams, of course hes got farther into the playoffs. vince dropped 50 in a playoff game too....so ?

you say he wasn't clutch against the sixers because he missed that one game winner, but ignore dirks bricked free throws in the clutch, and how about going 2-13 in game 6 against the warriors ? PATHETIC

VC is more clutch than that 7 foot vagina dirk......

Vince Carter is a fucking loser. Dirk has gotten to the Finals out of the West, and he did it without another All-Star on his roster. I'm not ignoring anything about Dirk, he's come through for his team and he's also come up short. I didn't say he was the most clutch player in the League, that would be laughable, but he's infinitely more clutch and more of a winner than Vince Carter.

You can point to all the fancy dunks against Least teams in the regular season all you want, but this sums up Vince Carter. How you can claim he's clutch or a winner I don't know:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2004/12/19/cartertip041219.html

Vince Carter tipped off a play to the Sonics bench during the final minute of the Raptors 101-94 loss to Seattle in Toronto.

With 29 seconds remaining in the game, the Raptors called a timeout. According to the Sonics, Carter returned from the huddle and lined up along the edge of the key. Before the play began, he said directly to the Seattle bench, "It's a flare. It's a flare."

The Raptors then ran a flare play.

Three members of the Sonics confirmed Carter tried to tip them off.

In the play, Raptors Matt Bonner sets a screen for Carter, who then runs toward the opposite corner. In this instance, Carter didn't handle the ball cleanly and passed the ball to Bonner, who hit a 22-foot shot from the top of the key.

Sonics forward Ray Allen was guarding Carter in the game.

"I didn't hear it, but that's what those other guys were saying (after the game) " Allen told the News Tribune. "But all I said was, 'Why would he do that?' I don't know why he would do that."

Sonics forward Reggie Evans was on the bench during the play.

"I'm not scared of Vince or nothing like that, but that is between him and his conscience," Evans said. "I'm not saying it did happen or it didn't happen."

I'll take Dirk over Vince Carter any day, whether it's based on talent, clutch factor, being a good teammate. Name the criterion and Dirk > Vince Carter. The only advantage Vince Carter has over Dirk is when it comes to And 1 moves.

[icem]

IMO, dirk gets rattled far too easily, so hes not more clutch than a guy like VC or even Gilbert Arenas.

[monosylab1k]

IMO, dirk gets rattled far too easily, so hes not more clutch than a guy like VC
the fuck? VC doesn't get rattled easily?

They react in different ways when rattled. When Dirk is rattled, he shuts off and lays back and doesn't do shit. When Carter gets rattled, he takes the ball and never gives it up, takes wildass playground shots and shoots 4 for 25. Take your pick as to which is worse.

[MrChug]

You're a fuckin' retard if you think Carter, T-Mac and KG are more clutch than Dirk.

Dirk never tipped off the opposing team's bench as to what play was being run.

Do you know anything about basketball?

You're a fucking retard if you think that Dirk is MORE clutch than any of these people...

"Do you know anything about basketball?"

[hater]

LMAO at Carter on that list

[Findog]

You're a fucking retard if you think that Dirk is MORE clutch than any of these people...

"Do you know anything about basketball?"

I didn't say Dirk is clutch, I just said he's more clutch than Carter, T-Mac and KG.

If you're too fucking stupid to realize that, and given the source, you are, I'm sorry I can't help you with that.

Of course, I'm talking to the same guy that says Nick Van Exel = Titles, so no surprise. The Lakers, Nuggets, Mavs, Warriors, Blazers and Spurs would all beg to differ.

[Thunder Dan]

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/07/84/59/image_3159847.jpg
j/k

[MrChug]

HISTORY: "The Golden State Warriors have completed the most improbable upset in NBA history. The Mavericks and Dirk Nowitzki should be ashamed"

-Kenny Smith

[Findog]

HISTORY: "The Golden State Warriors have completed the most improbable upset in NBA history. The Mavericks and Dirk Nowitzki should be ashamed"

-Kenny Smith

Biggest upset in NBA history based on W-L records? Absolutely
Biggest upset in NBA history based on talent disparity? Not even close. Warriors were better than a typical 8 seed. You didn't prove Vince, T-Mac and KG are more clutch than Dirk, all you proved is that Dallas got upset. Dirk has a better clutch resume than those three guys. Get a clue.

But then again, what do I know? I'm arguing with a guy who says titles follow Nick Van Exel wherever he goes. I wouldn't know if Mr. Sabotage His own Team or the second-round virgin are clutch deep into the playoffs because they could never get there.

[monosylab1k]

Biggest upset in NBA history based on talent disparity? Not even close. Warriors were better than a typical 8 seed.

I'm sorry, but this is a big time myth that us Mavericks fans have created in order to feel better about getting our asses kicked. Golden State was a typical 8-seed. There have been 8-seeds before that have gone on big late season runs to make the playoffs. It doesn't matter. They were the 8 seed, and nothing more. Utah, who up until the last month were a much weaker team than Dallas, disposed of them in 5 games, which is a pretty typical result for the average 8 seed.

If anything, Dallas was not a typical 1 seed.

[Findog]

I'm sorry, but this is a big time myth that us Mavericks fans have created in order to feel better about getting our asses kicked. Golden State was a typical 8-seed. There have been 8-seeds before that have gone on big late season runs to make the playoffs. It doesn't matter. They were the 8 seed, and nothing more. Utah, who up until the last month were a much weaker team than Dallas, disposed of them in 5 games, which is a pretty typical result for the average 8 seed.

The hell it's a myth. It's still an upset, not denying that. Are you saying Golden goes 42-40 if Richardson and Davis don't miss 50 games combined? If they have Jackson and Harrington for 82 games instead of 25? Please. It was an upset, but not a historically significant one. It will be remembered as such because of the W-L disparity, but when healthy and with that 12-man roster together, the Warriors were much better than a .500 team.

Four of the five games in the GS-Uta series went to the wire, the lone blowout win belonged to GS. It's not like the Jazz beat their brains out every single game. GS was a good team and a bad matchup. Utah had two of three things you need to beat a small-ball team: a big, physical PG that can create for himself and others (Williams), a low-post scorer that can punish GS for playing small (Boozer). We had neither, and with Damp out, we had nobody to protect the rim from dribble penetration. There are a number of reasons why we lost that series, but we didn't lose to a .500 team.

[monosylab1k]

Are you saying Golden goes 42-40 if Richardson and Davis don't miss 50 games? If they have Jackson and Harrington for 82 games instead of 25? Please. It was an upset, but not a historically significant one. It will be remembered as such because of the W-L disparity, but when healthy and with that 12-man roster together, the Warriors were much better than a .500 team.

Davis always misses some time, Richardson had one of the worst seasons of his career, and regardless of how the games played out, the bottom line is that Utah beat them in 5.

Golden State was no better than the 42 win team they played out to be.

I'm sure there's plenty of Seattle fans who also talk about how Denver wasn't a typical 8 seed either, but we all know better.

[monosylab1k]

There are a number of reasons why we lost that series, but we didn't lose to a .500 team.
if that makes you feel better then go for it. I highly doubt Golden State would have made it farther than 5 games in a series against any other team in the Western Conference except the Lakers.

[Findog]

Davis always misses some time, Richardson had one of the worst seasons of his career,

Richardson was a beast after he came back from his injury. PER doesn't capture everything, but he had one of the top PERs in the League after his return from injury. And yes, Davis is injury-prone, but he was healthy during our series. You can't point to a 42-40 record as indicative of the team they put on the floor during our series. GS with a healthy Baron, J-Rich, Jax and Harrington > GS without those guys. It's that simple. They lost quite a few games during the regular season without the services of those four players. Those losses tell us nothing about the team that we faced in the playoffs.


and regardless of how the games played out, the bottom line is that Utah beat them in 5.

They were close, competitive games. That's all I'm saying.

[Findog]

if that makes you feel better then go for it. I highly doubt Golden State would have made it farther than 5 games in a series against any other team in the Western Conference except the Lakers.

I didn't say it makes me feel better, I'm still disappointed we lost, and I realize how it will go down in history. I just happen to realize that GS was better than a typical 8 seed.

[monosylab1k]

They were close, competitive games. That's all I'm saying.
And they still lost in 5

[monosylab1k]

I didn't say it makes me feel better, I'm still disappointed we lost, and I realize how it will go down in history. I just happen to realize that GS was better than a typical 8 seed.
And I happen to realize that calling GS better than a typical 8 seed is finding a way to justify the Mavericks failure.

[Findog]

And I happen to realize that calling GS better than a typical 8 seed is finding a way to justify the Mavericks failure.

I don't think it justifies anything. It was still an upset and it was still a failure. There's still room for improvement. But putting it on the level of US-Russia hockey, Den-Sea, whatever, is simply not accurate, despite what history will say. Calling the Warriors better than a typical 8 seed is just telling the truth.

[monosylab1k]

But putting it on the level of US-Russia hockey, Den-Sea, whatever, is simply not accurate, despite what history will say. Calling the Warriors better than a typical 8 seed is just telling the truth.

The only reason it wouldn't be accurate is because Dallas wasn't as good as their record indicated. Golden State was a typical 8 seed, end of story. Utah proved it.

[JamStone]

I'm going to name 10 players taller than Dirk:

1. Yao Ming
2. Zydrunas Ilgauskas
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Jerome James
6. Jake Tsakalidas
7. Joel Pryzbilla
8. Tyson Chandler
9. Darko Milicic
10. Martynus Andriuskevicius

[Findog]

The only reason it wouldn't be accurate is because Dallas wasn't as good as their record indicated. Golden State was a typical 8 seed, end of story. Utah proved it.

Going round in circles, we'll just have to agree to disagree. The Warriors lost Davis and Richardson to 50 games due to injury, they had Jackson and Harrington only after February. I think the 42-40 record and 8 seed would've been much improved if they had those four players available for full seasons. Only Davis is injury-prone of those three and he averages about 60 games played per year. If you think Golden State wouldn't improve on their record without Richardson, Jackson and Harrington available all year, then I don't know what to say.

[monosylab1k]

If you think Golden State wouldn't improve on their record without Richardson, Jackson and Harrington available all year, then I don't know what to say.

With the constant possibility of mental implosion, I don't think that squad could have won much more than the 42 games.

And I think that makes alot more sense than saying a 67 win team couldn't match up to an 8 seed because of an injury to Erick Dampier.

[Findog]

I think it makes alot more sense than saying that a 67 win team couldn't match up to an 8 seed because of an injury to Erick Dampier.

If you lose your best interior defender, your team is going to suffer. Dampier > Dirk when it comes to stopping dribble penetration. Call him a vagina or overpaid or whatever, he is a good interior defender with a lousy offensive repertoire. A lot of those easy dunks and layups are going to be contested if he's healthy and playing.


With the constant possibility of mental implosion, I don't think that squad could have won much more than the 42 games.

Call me crazy, but adding Davis, Richardson, Jackson and Harrington to your roster makes you much better.

[monosylab1k]

If you lose your best interior defender, your team is going to suffer.

I didn't realize that Diop was out for that series.

[monosylab1k]

And I'm sorry, but it's just ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS to suggest that a 67 win team can't beat an 8 seed because they don't have ERICK DAMPIER.

[Findog]

I didn't realize that Diop was out for that series.

He's only plays about 25 mpg because he doesn't have the stamina and hasn't learned how to stay out of foul trouble. Dirk played significant minutes at C in that series. Dirk can't guard 6'7 wings, how it played out was predictable.

[Findog]

And I'm sorry, but it's just ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS to suggest that a 67 win team can't beat an 8 seed because they don't have ERICK DAMPIER.

I think it's absolutely ludicrous to think our interior defense doesn't suffer without him. I'm not saying he would've decisively swung the series, what I am saying is that forays into the paint become harder for Golden State. Also, you can't on one hand point to those 67 wins as meaningful and say that because of them, losing to the Warriors is unacceptable, and then on the other hand, say Dallas isn't as good as their record and they're not a typical 1 seed.

[monosylab1k]

I think it's absolutely ludicrous to think our interior defense doesn't suffer without him. I'm not saying he would've decisively swung the series, what I am saying is that forays into the paint become harder for Golden State.
We didn't lose that series in the paint. We lost it at the unprotected three point line. We lost in the paint on the offensive end, and that's a place where Dampier wouldn't have helped out anyways.

[Findog]

We didn't lose that series in the paint. We lost it at the unprotected three point line. We lost in the paint on the offensive end, and that's a place where Dampier wouldn't have helped out anyways.

I thought we lost it with Devin Harris and Jason Terry undersized and unable to keep Richardson and Davis in front of them, and nobody back to protect the rim from dribble penetration.

[monosylab1k]

Also, you can't on one hand point to those 67 wins as meaningful and say that because of them, losing to the Warriors is unacceptable, and then on the other hand, say Dallas isn't as good as their record and they're not a typical 1 seed.

I didn't do that. This was a 67 win team against a 42 win team. bottom line.

I was just saying that calling the Warriors better than a typical 42 win team was not true, and that IF you're going to say a team was playing "above" or "below" what their win total indicated, then you'd have to go with Dallas not playing as well as their record showed.

[Findog]

I didn't do that. This was a 67 win team against a 42 win team. bottom line.

Yes, quite the disparity in W-L records. Not that it tells the whole story.

[monosylab1k]

I thought we lost it with Devin Harris and Jason Terry undersized and unable to keep Richardson and Davis in front of them, and nobody back to protect the rim from dribble penetration.

i saw the team play alot better in the rare times that they defended the perimeter and let the Warriors do what they wanted in the paint. I'll take a Matt Barnes or Jason Richardson post move over a wide open, nobody within 5 feet of him, Stephen Jackson three pointer any day.

[monosylab1k]

Not that it tells the whole story.

It doesn't tell the whole story about Dallas.

[monosylab1k]

hell, Al Harrington was missing everything in the paint. Monta Ellis was a non factor with his penetration. Biedrins had limited success. Why not force the Warriors to go there instead of letting Richardson, Davis, Jackson, & Barnes keep throwing up uncontested threes?

[Findog]

Biedrins had limited success.

I could've sworn he did whatever he wanted in the paint. My recollection differs from yours.

[Findog]

It doesn't tell the whole story about Dallas.

FWIW, I don't think Dallas is as good as their record, given that their efficiency ratings, point differential, and other statistical categories were similar to the previous two seasons when they won 58 and 60, respectively. It's important to keep in mind that they were going all out all season long when a good 1/3 of the League was tanking for Oden.

And Golden State was better than their record due to injuries and a major talent infusion with the trade. So realistically, you're looking at a 58-60 win team losing to a team that probably would've won 50-53 games if it had been healthy and together all year long. It's still an upset, it's still disappointing and playing below capabilities, but I only object to the "GREATEST UPSET IN NBA HISTORY" meme. It will go down that way because of the W-L records, but based on the talent gap, it's not even close. I don't offer this as an excuse or a justification, just an explanation.

[monosylab1k]

The more I look at how that series, and the following one against Utah played out, the more I see the Warriors looking like a VERY average team with a VERY limited amount of "moves" to make in a series.

This series was lost by a combination of Maverick arrogance & sense of entitlement (which definitely exists), lack of fight when things went wrong, and coaching blunders.

[Findog]

i saw the team play alot better in the rare times that they defended the perimeter and let the Warriors do what they wanted in the paint. I'll take a Matt Barnes or Jason Richardson post move over a wide open, nobody within 5 feet of him, Stephen Jackson three pointer any day.

There's some merit to this, but how is that Dirk's fault? Golden State hit all their jump shots against us. He sucked against Golden State, no question, he went from 25 and 12 in the regular season to 19 and 10 during the GS series. He deserves ample criticism for his performance. But it was a team failure, not just a Dirk failure. That's really the only thing I take issue with in the post-mortem of that loss, that is was ALL Dirk's fault and it was the biggest upset in playoff history. I would modulate it to he sucked and we lost to a slightly lesser team.

[monosylab1k]

It wasn't all Dirk's fault (in retrospect, Avery deserves more blame than anybody), but if he's the team leader and a superstar, he simply can't play that poorly in the first round of the playoffs. It's even worse with the comments he made to the media and the fact that he excused his poor play by pointing out that he had double-digit rebounding totals, like anybody gave a fuck.

[Findog]

The more I look at how that series, and the following one against Utah played out, the more I see the Warriors looking like a VERY average team with a VERY limited amount of "moves" to make in a series.

This series was lost by a combination of Maverick arrogance & sense of entitlement (which definitely exists), lack of fight when things went wrong, and coaching blunders.

Well, at least you're spreading the blame around instead of putting it entirely at Dirk's feet. Avery sucked against Nellie. Who on our roster had a good series? Maybe Diop? Maybe Howard?

[Findog]

It wasn't all Dirk's fault (in retrospect, Avery deserves more blame than anybody), but if he's the team leader and a superstar, he simply can't play that poorly in the first round of the playoffs.

I agree he came up too small. And I don't want to gloss over his faults. I'm inclined to go with the Murphy's Law Perfect Storm theory.

[lebomb]

LMAO at the dumbass people who thought this was a serious thread. I was just bullshitting.....since I saw the name 10 players better than Dirk thread. After this years playoffs, I could easily name 10 better players. But, that is the other thread.

Dirk has talent, but no heart as of yet.

[Findog]

After this years playoffs, I could easily name 10 better players. But, that is the other thread.



No, you can't, unless you want to be facetious. Dirk's one of the top five or six players in the League.

[monosylab1k]

LMAO at the dumbass people who thought this was a serious thread. I was just bullshitting......

ah, so that's how it works. Make a stupid thread, have everybody call you a dumbass, then try to save face by saying "i was just kidding all along!"

what's funny is that there ARE at least 10 players more clutch than Dirk. You just created a really shitty list that didn't prove your point in any way.

[Findog]

ah, so that's how it works. Make a stupid thread, have everybody call you a dumbass, then try to save face by saying "i was just kidding all along!"

Give him some credit, he didn't go so far as to claim that Nick Van Exel is a title-making machine, like MrChug.

[stretch]

It wasn't all Dirk's fault (in retrospect, Avery deserves more blame than anybody), but if he's the team leader and a superstar, he simply can't play that poorly in the first round of the playoffs. It's even worse with the comments he made to the media and the fact that he excused his poor play by pointing out that he had double-digit rebounding totals, like anybody gave a fuck.
Well, I'd say that the rebounding thing is because people constantly say that he can't contribute unless he is scoring, which is wrong. He may not be able to take over a game with defense, but if hes not scoring well, the majority of the time he will rebound a lot more, many times getting a good 12-15 boards. I think his rebounding is very overlooked. He very often gets rebounds and tip-outs at very big times. He does help this team in more ways than scoring, unlike what many people say.

[SpursWillOwn]

Findog, Suns have did 1 thing this year the Mavs did not.. Get out of the first round. So what if Vince hit only a clutch game winner in the first round playoffs? Vince gotten out of the first round.

[Findog]

Findog, Suns have did 1 thing this year the Mavs did not.. Get out of the first round. So what if Vince hit only a clutch game winner in the first round playoffs? Vince gotten out of the first round.

Got out of the first round in the Least. Color me awestruck. How many teams has Vince led to a Finals? How many times have the Nash-Amare Suns been to a Finals?

I'll tell you one thing Vince has done that Dirk hasn't: He's tipped off the opposing team. I'd rather have Nick Fazekas than a saboteur. I'm a big Tarheel guy, have been since I was a kid, but I disown Vince. He's a fucking loser.

[mavs>spurs2]

Findog, Suns have did 1 thing this year the Mavs did not.. Get out of the first round. So what if Vince hit only a clutch game winner in the first round playoffs? Vince gotten out of the first round.

:lmao So now Vince Carter is clutch because he went further than the Mavs ONE year out of the past 8??? How many finals appearances does VC have? Conference Finals???

[Findog]

:lmao So now Vince Carter is clutch because he went further than the Mavs ONE year out of the past 8??? How many finals appearances does VC have? Conference Finals???

He might've gone farther in the playoffs if he remembered that he's supposed to help HIS team, not the guys in different jerseys. I have yet to see one of these Vince Carter knobgobblers explain how he's clutch and a winner when he sabotages his own team. Chris fuckin' Webber is more clutch than Vince Carter.

[stretch]

Getting far in the playoffs and being a clutch player does not always go hand in hand. I'm not saying that Carter is very clutch, but I have seen him make some big time clutch plays in many games. But saying that just because someone doesnt go far in the playoffs, that they arent clutch is not true. T-Mac is clutch as hell, but has never gotten out of the first round. Kobe without Shaq hasnt gotten past the first round, but is considered by many to be the most clutch player in the game.

[LEONARD]

Wow...allow me to introduce some fairly recent stats to the idiocy...

Looking at the last two minutes of a game only. Not totally crucial but you still need “big” shots in the final two minutes, especially if you are down or tied. And it looks like Dirk is tied for the second most game-tying or lead changing field goals in the last two minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime for 2005 thru March '07.

Most Game Tying/Lead Changing FGs, Last 2 Minutes

Player FGM
Kobe Bryant 19
Dirk Nowitzki 13
Paul Pierce 13
Mehmet Okur 13
Ben Gordon 13
Joe Johnson 12
Jason Terry 11
4 Others Tied With 11

So Dirk has connected on a decent amount of crucial shots, but let’s now look at the final shot attempt in games. So the set criteria for this will be:

4th Quarter or OT
Under 24 seconds
Team is down by 1, 2 or the game is tied

The league average in these situations since the beginning of the 2005-06 season is 31.0%, which is much lower than the league average of 45.5% in normal situations. In these “last shot” attempts Dirk is shooting 30.8% (4-for-13). So Dirk is right around the league average.

For instance, both Pau Gasol and Carmelo Anthony are a deadly 58.3% (7-for-12), while [B}Chauncey Billups is 6.7% (1-for-15) and Kobe Bryant is 18.2% (4-for-22).[/B]

So what can we learn from this, Dirk has hit some big shots down the stretch in the last couple years and when it comes to the last shot, Dirk is right around the league average for making the last shot...

[monosylab1k]

That's great and all, but what stat covers over the fact that he scored 8 points in a must win game as his team got the shit kicked out of them and knocked out in the 1st round to an 8-seed?

[Findog]

That's great and all, but what stat covers over the fact that he scored 8 points in a must win game as his team got the shit kicked out of them and knocked out in the 1st round to an 8-seed?

I think Leonard's point is that Dirk has both come through at times and also come up short. If it's glossing over his failures to point to the Mavericks' 5-0 record in series-deciding games, Dirk playing well in four of them, as well as his performances against San Antonio and Phoenix in the playoffs, then it's equally unfair to point to Golden State without acknowledging his entire body of work. You seem to actively dislike the team you root for.

[LEONARD]

That's great and all, but what stat covers over the fact that he scored 8 points in a must win game as his team got the shit kicked out of them and knocked out in the 1st round to an 8-seed?

The point of the stats is for a GENERAL OVERVIEW of Dirk's late game contributions and trying to put some definition to "clutch" since everybody throws it around so much....

[Dalhoop]

That's great and all, but what stat covers over the fact that he scored 8 points in a must win game as his team got the shit kicked out of them and knocked out in the 1st round to an 8-seed?

It also ignores the 50 points in sending the Spurs home in a game seven. Dirk has had his share of good games and bad most players have. I don't think that he is overly clutch, but I don't cringe when he takes the last shot. If a game comes down to the Mavs final shot, I will be happy with a Dirk jumper from anyplace on the floor.

To me, that is clutch.

You all seem to think that its an all or nothing thing and it isn't. Most of the Spurs here will tell you that Manu is Clutch City, but we all know what he did at the end of the Dallas series (The foul and missed shot at the end). In that game he was as far from clutch as you could get ... He gets a pass because of what he has done in the past.

Dirk was about as Clutch as you could get in that game, knowing he was down, he drove and got the call and made the shots. But he doesn't get a pass ...

He is clutch, but like all players, it comes and goes.

[Findog]

It also ignores the 50 points in sending the Spurs home in a game seven. Dirk has had his share of good games and bad most players have. I don't think that he is overly clutch, but I don't cringe when he takes the last shot. If a game comes down to the Mavs final shot, I will be happy with a Dirk jumper from anyplace on the floor.

To me, that is clutch.

You all seem to think that its an all or nothing thing and it isn't. Most of the Spurs here will tell you that Manu is Clutch City, but we all know what he did at the end of the Dallas series (The foul and missed shot at the end). In that game he was as far from clutch as you could get ... He gets a pass because of what he has done in the past.

Dirk was about as Clutch as you could get in that game, knowing he was down, he drove and got the call and made the shots. But he doesn't get a pass ...

He is clutch, but like all players, it comes and goes.

Actually I think it was 35, 38 points against SAS in G7, he hung 50 on Phoenix in G5 of the conference finals.

[monosylab1k]

Okay fine. Dirk is clutch city. Fuckin' clutch city. Any time he didn't play well, there's a great excuse for it. D-Wade missed free throws too!!!!! Golden State wasn't really an 8 seed!!!! He hit a gamewinner three years ago against Milwaukee that was fuckin' awesome!!!!!!!!!!

Let me go in the closet and find those Mavericks pom-poms, because evidently I'm not a true fan until I start mindlessly bleating out homer views left and right.

[yourcheatinheart]

Actually I think it was 35, 38 points against SAS in G7, he hung 50 on Phoenix in G5 of the conference finals.


with out raja bell and amare may i remind you. here's one more player who's more clutch than dirk..


http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/meeks4president/teenwolf.JPG.jpg

[monosylab1k]

I love the "Manu choked too!!!" excuse as well.

Guess what? When you've got three rings already, you can afford to fuck up once in a while.

[Findog]

with out raja bell and amare may i remind you. here's one more player who's more clutch than dirk..


Neither one of those guys can guard Dirk. Are you fuckin' serious?

[Findog]

Okay fine. Dirk is clutch city. Fuckin' clutch city. Any time he didn't play well, there's a great excuse for it. D-Wade missed free throws too!!!!! Golden State wasn't really an 8 seed!!!! He hit a gamewinner three years ago against Milwaukee that was fuckin' awesome!!!!!!!!!!

Let me go in the closet and find those Mavericks pom-poms, because evidently I'm not a true fan until I start mindlessly bleating out homer views left and right.

Nobody's being a homer here. We just have longer memories than Golden State. There's only four guys I'd rather have to start a franchise than Dirk.

[Dalhoop]

So I take it that your not willing to admit that "Clutch" comes and goes?

[monosylab1k]

Nobody's being a homer here. We just have longer memories than Golden State.
Like Miami? or Houston? or Phoenix? or Sacramento?

[Findog]

Like Miami? or Houston? or Phoenix? or Sacramento?

Or Sacramento, or Minnesota, or Portland, or Phoenix, or San Antonio, or Memphis, or Utah.

See, there's two ends of the spectrum, those that completely gloss over his failures and those that refuse to acknowledge his strengths and the good things he's done. I prefer to be in the middle and assess his game objectively.

[LEONARD]

Okay fine. Dirk is clutch city. Fuckin' clutch city. Any time he didn't play well, there's a great excuse for it. D-Wade missed free throws too!!!!! Golden State wasn't really an 8 seed!!!! He hit a gamewinner three years ago against Milwaukee that was fuckin' awesome!!!!!!!!!!

Let me go in the closet and find those Mavericks pom-poms, because evidently I'm not a true fan until I start mindlessly bleating out homer views left and right.

Dude, what are you talking about? Who said he's "clutch city?" I posted stats that show he's right around the league avg in "last shots." Did you even read what I posted?

[monosylab1k]

So I take it that your not willing to admit that "Clutch" comes and goes?
look, i'm not interested in dirk's shooting percentage when he goes up against a bunch of bumblefucks on the Hornets. I'm interested in what he does against San Antonio, Phoenix, Miami in the Finals, Golden State, and so on. He came up HUGE for the Mavs against the Spurs. No denying it. But overall, Dirk HAS NOT YET been a guy that you can count on to consistently bring it against top competition all the time.

I realize that Duncan and Ginobili and Kobe and the rest have choked before too....but they've got a track record that's FAR BETTER than the one that Dirk has.

[Findog]

Dude, what are you talking about? Who said he's "clutch city?" I posted stats that show he's right around the league avg in "last shots." Did you even read what I posted?

Strawman and hyperbole alert!

[monosylab1k]

hold on guys, i'm ordering my pom-poms on Amazon right now. once i get that finished i'll be back. then we can all have a circle jerk about how great Dirk was against San Antonio and just ignore that whole Miami and Golden State thing.

[Findog]

look, i'm not interested in dirk's shooting percentage when he goes up against a bunch of bumblefucks on the Hornets. I'm interested in what he does against San Antonio, Phoenix, Miami in the Finals, Golden State, and so on. He came up HUGE for the Mavs against the Spurs. No denying it. But overall, Dirk HAS NOT YET been a guy that you can count on to consistently bring it against top competition all the time.

I realize that Duncan and Ginobili and Kobe and the rest have choked before too....but they've got a track record that's FAR BETTER than the one that Dirk has.

Given everything, I would still only take Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and Wade over Dirk if I were starting a team today and could choose anybody.

[Findog]

hold on guys, i'm ordering my pom-poms on Amazon right now. once i get that finished i'll be back. then we can all have a circle jerk about how great Dirk was against San Antonio and just ignore that whole Miami and Golden State thing.

God, you must be completely miserable rooting for this team. Nobody is glossing over the last two playoff series. Put down the strawman.

[monosylab1k]

OKAY! Got em. Should be shipped to me in 2 weeks.

Now let's find out all the times that Tim Duncan scored 8 points on 2 for 13 shooting as his team got the shit kicked out of them by an 8 seed. I'm sure it's happened to him plenty. I mean if it happened to Dirk once then it must have happened to every other NBA star like 3+ times.

[Findog]

OKAY! Got em. Should be shipped to me in 2 weeks.

Now let's find out all the times that Tim Duncan scored 8 points on 2 for 13 shooting as his team got the shit kicked out of them by an 8 seed. I'm sure it's happened to him plenty. I mean if it happened to Dirk once then it must have happened to every other NBA star like 3+ times.

Anybody here arguing Dirk is = or > Duncan?

What is with you today? You're better than these mocking strawman tirades.

[Dalhoop]

Now let's find out all the times that Tim Duncan scored 8 points on 2 for 13 shooting as his team got the shit kicked out of them by an 8 seed. I'm sure it's happened to him plenty. I mean if it happened to Dirk once then it must have happened to every other NBA star like 3+ times.

Unless your willing to admit that Duncan is more clutch then Dirk ... Which I think that everyone here is willing to do. We are just saying that Dirk has had his moments, both good and bad, and most people would think that its alright to not be great in every game.

It is a team sport after all

[Findog]

with out raja bell and amare may i remind you. here's one more player who's more clutch than dirk..




Oh, and do you even watch your own team? Raja played in Game Five. Do you even realize that Shawn Marion, Mr. All-Defense, always draws the assignment for Dirk? Dirk lit his ass up that night.

[Dalhoop]

The problem in the GS series was not Dirk, it was all about match-ups. Everyone knows this. How does Dirk do when he is forced to play center? He sucks. Thats why we have to centers on the team that can play .. To get Dirk into his comfert zone. Don Nelson knows all about this, having coached Dirk for so long.

Of any team in the League, the Warriors were the VERY LAST team that the Mavs would have wanted to run into, they have not played well against them for some time. GS simply is not a good match-up for the Mavs.

With the Heat .. Wade just took over .. It is that simple .. He saw the oppertunity and took it by the balls.

Did the Mavs loose the series to Heat or did the Heat win? The Heat won. Wade took the series over and would not let go until the Heat won. This is not Dirks fault, the blame would lay in the laps of those guarding (Or rather NOT guarding) him. Buckner, Terry and to a lesser degree Howard. Did Dirk have a subpar series? Absolutly, but this was the reason that we lost, Wade was the reason we lost.

[LEONARD]

OKAY! Got em. Should be shipped to me in 2 weeks.

Now let's find out all the times that Tim Duncan scored 8 points on 2 for 13 shooting as his team got the shit kicked out of them by an 8 seed. I'm sure it's happened to him plenty. I mean if it happened to Dirk once then it must have happened to every other NBA star like 3+ times.

Wow...

[Findog]

The problem in the GS series was not Dirk, it was all about match-ups. Everyone knows this. How does Dirk do when he is forced to play center? He sucks. Thats why we have to centers on the team that can play .. To get Dirk into his comfert zone. Don Nelson knows all about this, having coached Dirk for so long.

On another thread today mono said Avery deserved the most blame for the GS series, but we're not subjected to endless "Fire Avery!" tirades. Dirk sucked against the Warriors, even given all of the mitigating circumstances, he didn't do his job up to his standards. But he had plenty of "help." Was it Dirk's fault that Terry and Harris couldn't guard Davis and Richardson?

[Dalhoop]

I don't think that Avery deserved the blame for GS, Heat maybe, but not GS. He had very few options given what GS was doing. He had to take out his centers and match the small line-up. How the players did in that situation falls more on the players then Coach.

Thats what some people don't seem to understand, teams force other teams to play the way that they want to. You can fight it to a degree, but if one team is going to play its way no matter the cost, then there is not much that another team can do other then adjust.

Against the Spurs, the Mavs force the Spurs to take out their center and play small with us (We are the faster team, this is to our advantage. If they don't go small then the Spurs center would have no-one to guard that would not burn them badly .. Howard or Stackhouse)

When the Mavs ran into the Warriors, they played five players that were athletic and small ... Their biggest player on the floor most of the time would be a SF on the Mavs team. They not only forced the Mavs to go small and remove their center (Our centers are not "offensively gifted") but they also forced Dirk to defend a smaller quicker player as well.

In the same way we force the Spurs to change their defense, the Warriors forced us to change ours. The Warriors were willing to stay small all game long and dare the Mavs to put in our centers to try to punch the Warriors down low ... They couldn't. They forced the Mavs centers to guard SF's out away from the basket ... They couldn't. The Mavs had no choice but to play the Warriors game .... They were better at it then the Mavs were.

With the Spurs, after game one, the Mavs forced the Spurs to play small ... As it turned out, the Mavs were getter at it ... But it was very close.

Its all about the match-ups.