Research Confirmation: 10 Best Bigmen of All-Time

[timvp]

Not including Tim Duncan.

I'm writing an article and need a consensus of who are the top ten power forwards and centers ever.

Discuss.

[Solid D]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. (H)Akeem Olajuwon
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Karl Malone
7. Moses Malone
8. George Mikan
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Bob Pettit/David Robinson (Tie)

Honorable Mention

Willis Reed
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore (more ABA than NBA)
Kevin McHale
Patrick Ewing
Charles Barkley
Connie Hawkins

[Solid D]

It is difficult to define best because of the era/talent differences. The only player on the list above that I have not seen play, personally, is Mikan. His impact and number of titles when he played put him in the top 10, although he probably would be a bench player or IR player if he played today at 6'-10".

[jalbre6]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Karl Malone
6. Moses Malone
7. David Robinson
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Patrick Ewing
10. George Mikan

Hmmm...pretty similar to the other guy's list.

[timvp]

The only player on the list above that I have not seen play, personally, is Mikan.

Yeah, I should have mentioned to not include Mikan either. Although I'm sure he was a great player in his time, including him wouldn't make sense for the article that I'm writing.

Good lists so far.

[IcemanCometh]

I'd rate Methuselah above Warm Karl and Shaq any day, probably ahead of Dead man walking too.

1 Wilt
2 Russel
3 Moses
4 you dumbasses are forgetting Barkley
5 Kareem
6 Hakeem
7 Greates white pf of all time Karl Malone
8 Hayes
9 Robinson
10 Unseld

[Solid D]

I didn't forget Barkley but I do know how to spell Russell.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. (H)Akeem Olajuwon
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Karl Malone
7. Moses Malone
8. George Mikan
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Bob Pettit/David Robinson (Tie)

Honorable Mention

Willis Reed
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore (more ABA than NBA)
Kevin McHale
Patrick Ewing
Charles Barkley
Connie Hawkins

[spursfaninla]

Some pf/c are easy to include because they led their teams to titles, or were key to those runs:

wilt
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
Hakeem

Now, putting anyone without a ring in with those guys, in my opinion, is not just. David was clearly at a level below the key contributor to his rings, so he doesn't get the same kind of credit for his that the top 5 get. IMO, the next 5 are in a "great but level below the creme" catagory.

Karl
Barkley
David
Moses
x?

That last slot is hard for me, because I didn't get a chance to really see basketball much pre 90 (more out of lack of interest than out of age).

[IcemanCometh]

uhm Moses led his team to the championship, you know, fo fo fo. The 6ers traded for him and then they kinda had one of the best teams ever.

Anyways you can't quantify greatness by championships in a team sport. Dan Marino and Jim Kelley never won does that make them qb's than Trent Dilfer who did. Is John Stockton a lesser pg than Derek Fisher, Horace Grant a better pf than Karl Malone? The smaller a team in the sport the more weight a ring might bring but the only time championships are the measure of greatness is in individual sports like tennis and golf.

[WriterNum934]

Yes I am!

[Whottt]

Here's my list...with the exception of Wilt and Russell I am only going to list players I have seen play...I am going to save the BS PC inclusion of players that played 60 years ago that no one, and I mean not even people that followed in the NBA back then, has seen play. 500 people in in Minneapolis got to see him play..that's it..he was big..I would probably take Rasho Nesterovich over him if I was drafting a team right now and could use any player in history........Wilt and Russell are fairly easy to include because of various statistics and a direct link of matching up with semi modern players that I have seen play.

I also give credit to my players for being two way players...who played both O and D...This is going to bump guys like Barkley and Moses Malone down on my list.

1.Wilt Chamberlain - Greatest player of all time! **** this Jordan crap....Look, averaging
50 PPG for a season was a freak prior to Wilt playing in the NBA, it was a freak while he was playing in the NBA, it was a freak after he was done playing in the NBA...It is a freak now.

50 PPG! No one else, other than Wilt has ever even averaged 40 PPG...so this so called "his numbers were a product of his
era" horseshit argument doesn't wash...No one else came close to 50 PPG while he was playing, others approached his rebounding numbers......and others did reach the high mark for mortal players in PPG...that of 37 - 38
PPG...a mark that was reached even in the Jordan era..So how is it that 38 PPG has been reachable in mutiple eras but 50 PPG hasn't been reachable by anyone, in any era, unless it was Wilt? Add to that the fact that the guy also lead the league in assists...he is the only player to ever record a triple double double...that feat is achieved by getting at least 20 in 3 different statistical categories...Wilt totaled over 20 points boards and assists in a single game on more than one occasion...I don't doubt that if anyone ever recorded a quintuple double it was Wilt...Quite simply the greatest player of all time and to me that point isn't even arguable.

Wilt is far and away better than any other bigman to ever play the game...he is far and away better than any other player to play the game.

2.Kareem - Second greatest player of all time! The original Super Center...he has the rings, the stats, the longevity...he won at every level...Kareem is the greatest mortal player of all time...

3.Hakeem - Won every playoff matchup against every great center in the greatest era of the center. Owns post season victories over Kareem, Ewing, Shaq and Drob(usually on the way to the finals or NBA titles).

4.David Robinson...and all you LakerFans and bigmedia apologists who call themselves Spurs fans can first go fuckyourselves and then go take a huge fucking leap off of the tallest building in town...

The simple fact is that David Robinson is statistically the most versatile center in NBA history, he was statistically the best center(and many times the best player) in his era, as his IBM awards attest...in the greatest era of the Center...and he has a winning record against all of the other great Centers of his era...

The difference between David Robinson...and Hakeem and Shaq, and even Kareem and Wilt....David Robinson never failed to make the playoffs in a season in which he was healthy, he never had a losing record, he never even had a 500 record...in fact, the only other center who can say that is Bill Russell...and the difference between Robinson and Russell is that Drob wasn't surrounded by 3-7 other Hall of Famers every year of his career, in a media darling town.

Drob and Jordan are the only players to win a scoring title and a DPOY award...the ultimate sign of versatility...Drob ended a 19 year scoring drought by Centers in the NBA...the only center on this list that can say he scored more points than Drob in a game is Wilt...

Quite honestly the praise so often given to Russell of being more worried about helping his team win than individual numbers more deservedly belongs to David Robinson...he was the guy who both gave up his numbers, or increased them...as his team needed...By Drob's own admission he isn't much of a scorer and never was...One has to then ask just how in the **** he won a scoring title and scored 70 Points in a game...could you imagine if he had been a scorer or had a go to move?

I would like to say that Kareem, Drob and Hakeem...are all very similar players and all very close in my ranking...the difference between Drob and the other two is more due to longevity than anything else...

By the way...for all you ring counters...Drob is the only Center to win two NBA titles without an All Star or All NBA guard on his team. And Hakeem is the only other guy to do it once...

5.Shaq - The criticism most often leveled at Wilt is more deservedly leveled at Shaq, for it is Shaq whose numbers are product of his era...people often wonder what kind of numbers Shaq would have put up in the 50's, 60's or 70's and I say to you this....He put up his numbers in this era because in this era refs swallow their whistles and allow physical play that never would have been allowed in previous eras....Shaq would have fouled out more in other eras than he does in this one...IMO..for his method of disloding his defender is against the rules stated in the NBA rule book...it is called an offensive foul...and the defenition of O foul is much more open to interpretation in this era than it was in any other.


Now that we are through the top 5 we get to the more offensive or defensive oriented players with one exception...

6.Elvin Hayes - This guy IMO was the best defensive PF of all time not named Tim Duncan...he was also a pretty good offensive player...I only got to see him at the end of his career and I still think he was the best I ever saw on D other than Duncan.

7.Moses Malone - Honestly this guy is the most over-rated Center ever...he played absolutely no defense, in fact he didn't even try to play defense...

Everyone will mention his title with the 6'ers( won with Dr J and Maurice Cheeks) as proof of his greatness...to which I respond...he got to play with those guys more than 1 year...in fact in later years Charles Barkley and Bob Mcadoo were added to some of those teams...why didn't he win then?

8.Bob McAdoo - Probably deserved to be rated ahead of Malone but I only got to see him at the tail end of his career, in my gut I think he was a better offensive player than Moses Malone.

9.Bill Russell - Winning 11 titles but doing it with 3-7 other HOF'ers on your team every single year of your career, and being the best rebounder ever, gets you 9th on my list.

I'd take those Celtic teams over a lot of guys on my list...but I wouldn't take Russell by himself over any of the guys ranked ahead of him on my list...People always bring up Wilt's FT shooting as a weakness in his game and a way in which he hurt his teams...yet no one ever mentions that Russell was nearly as a bad a FT shooter...I wonder why....

10.Artis Gilmore - He, not Shaq, not Wilt, is the best PCT shooter in basketball history and also and excellent defensive player...The prototypical Center...high PCT shooter, great shotblocker and rebounder...IMO the most under-rated Center ever...he probably deserves to be higher on my list, and I can't really give a good reason for him not being higher...other than the fact that he is so grossly over-looked I doubt my own judgement just a little...he definitely belongs on the list of the best ever and he definitely belong in the HOF.

Honorable mentions...Elgin Baylor(who I admit I am clueless of his game..he put up astounding power numbers for a short man though)

Charles Barkley(played no D, absolutely no fucking D)

Bill Walton(versatile),

Karl Malone(statisticaly Malone deserves higher ranking...but I look at the teams and players on which he played that failed to win a title, the coaches he had...I don't place a lot of emphasis on rings in a team sport...but Malone has no excuses...no one has played with as many great players and coaches as Malone and failed to win a ring...I won't give huge credit for winning rings, but in this case I will penalize for not winning one...he's got no excuses and I saw him cost his team at least one momentum swinging game, via pure blatant choke at a key moment, in the NBA finals).

[IcemanCometh]

oh god its begun. somehome Raphael Palmeiro will get involved

[timvp]

Interesting points so far:

1) People's dramatic views on Barkley. Love or hate.
2) Ewing not being named on a top ten list yet.
3) Wilt always being number one. Russell and Jabbar have their supporters ... somewhere.

Keep up the good work.

[Whottt]

oh god its begun. somehome Raphael Palmeiro will get involved

What part of "go fuckyourself and then take a huge leap off the tallest building in town" don't you understand, you crack huffing, Drob hating bitch?

Need directions? One American Center @ 4th and Congress...let me know if you need a ride over there.

[Whottt]

TimVP, I like Barkley but as with Malone...look at the teams and players that Barkley got to play with that failed to win titles...Scottie Pippen knew how to win rings, so did Hakeem, so did Drexler, so did Dr. J and Moses Malone...I have vivid memories of a miserable Barkley on mediocre Sixers teams prior to his trade to the Suns...Great player but don't think he's among the 10 best bigmen ever...and he didn't play D. He makes my all time quote team though...

As for Ewing...Ewing wasn't even in the top 3 Centers of his ERA IMO...much less one of the top 10 ever...He's Alonzo Mourning with more longevity...Good Center....not one of the best ever...and he played on some very talented teams, backed by lots of money as well...The best thing Ewing had going for him in being one of the greatest ever is that he played in New York...that's about the only reason he even gets mentioned IMO.

[IcemanCometh]

welp this thread is dead

[timvp]

Let's keep this moving. I was hoping to link to this thread in the final article.

[adidas11]

My list.

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Kareem


5. Moses
6. Hakeem
7. Mikan
8. Karl
9. David
10. Reed

I would like to also mention, that I'm factoring a considerable gap between #4 and #5. Personally, I think the top 4 are at a level on their own, because of what they have accomplished in their careers.

[Solid D]

Elgin Baylor(who I admit I am clueless of his game..he put up astounding power numbers for a short man though)

Whottt, Elgin normally played the smaller forward position on the Lakers.

I don't really consider him a post player. With that said, he was so good though, like Magic or Larry Bird, he could play just about anywhere. He was a basketball player, not just a positional guy. He was the first guy I remember the announcers using the terms "hang time" and "double pump".

[ducks]

I think shaq will slip further down when he is not as productive without kobe:next3

[E20]

The only reason Wilt was so good was because he was a tall freak at that time and the only move he did was go on the left block and stretch out his RIGHT arm and put the ball in the hoop he didn't even have a left hand. Any of the great centers from the 85's and up would have dominated Wilt and I don't see Wilt giving his team 6 rings.

Jordan >>>>> Wilt.

[E20]

Also, Wilt was a ball hog it's like Kobe to the billionth power. Also if Jordan was alive in that era and played........he'd average more than 50.

[2pac]

Wilt was a ball hog it's like Kobe to the billionth power.

Name another center to lead the league in total assists.

If you have a guy making 70% of his shots over a whole season, no one else on that team should be shooting.

[Solid D]

Also, Wilt was a ball hog it's like Kobe to the billionth power. Also if Jordan was alive in that era and played........he'd average more than 50.

E20, nice guess but that's really not true. When Wilt got the ball in a position to score down on the block, he did. Someone had to pass it to him, whether it was Guy Rodgers or Hal Greer or Gail Goodrich entering the offense.

Besides, Wilt got a lot of his points after he rebounded his teammates shots and then he would dunk or finger-roll them in (yes, Wilt finger-rolled well before Ice did).

[IcemanCometh]

Wilt did **** 20,000 chicks tho

[spurster]

From SolidD's list, this is the number of times these players have been 1st or 2nd Team All-NBA.

Kareem 15
Karl Malone 14
Pettit 11
Barkley 10
Shaq 10
Wilt 10
Russell 10
Hakeem 9
Moses Malone 8
Ewing 7
Mikan 6
Elvin Hayes 6
David Robinson 6
Willis Reed 5
Hawkins 1
McHale 1
Gilmore 0
Thurmon 0

I thought this would be an interesting comparison. In particular, McHale only comes up once. I thought he would be more.

[SpursFanInAustin]

I would like to also mention, that I'm factoring a considerable gap between #4 and #5. Personally, I think the top 4 are at a level on their own, because of what they have accomplished in their careers.

I have to disagree that Hakeem doesn't belong on that list of the top 4 centers as a level on their own. Hakeem was on another planet during the 94 and 95 playoffs with the Rockets, and like Whottt mentioned, he won matchups with the elite centers like Ewing, DRob, and Shaq in the playoffs. Hakeem's numbers vs the Spurs were unbelievable. He had three 40 pt games in the series, and 39 pts 18 boards 6 blocks in the clinching game 6.

[Solid D]

Interesting listings, spurster. Artis Gilmore and Connie Hawkins did some of their amazing things in the ABA...Artis with the Kentucky Colonels. Hawkins dominated and won a championship with the Pittsburgh Pipers. I don't think anyone has a higher FG% (career) than the A-Train. He was very strong player also. A player (Adrian Dantley, as I remember it) once broke their hand/wrist trying to take a rebound out of A-Train's vice-grip.

That's surprising about Thurmond. Nate played in the shadow of Wilt for the Warriors, early in his career, so that's somewhat understandable. Nate was pretty dominant though. He had a couple of seasons there in the 60s where he averaged over 20 ppg and 20 rpg.

I thought of a couple of others for the Honorable Mention list:

Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Bill Walton

and for you ABA lovers,
Mel Daniels
George McGinnis
Dan Issel (ABA and NBA)

[Solid D]

One more thing about Nate Thurmond. Although he wasn't "All-NBA", check out these highlights!!!

www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Thurmond.htm (http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Thurmond.htm)

* NBA All-Rookie Team (1964)
* NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969, 1971)
* NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1972-74)
* Seven-time NBA All-Star (1965-69, 1970, 1973, 1974)
* Scored 14,437 points (15.0 ppg) in 964 games
* Grabbed 14,464 rebounds (15.0) in 964 games, seventh best in history
*Upon enshrinement, his 14,464 boards were fourth best in history

* Had eight seasons with 1,000 or more rebounds (1965-69, 1971-73), including a career-best 22.0 rpg in 1968
* Holds the NBA record for most rebounds in one quarter (18 vs. Baltimore on Feb. 28, 1965)
* Warriors leading rebounder (12,771)
* Grabbed a career-high 42 rebounds against Detroit (Nov. 9, 1965), making him one of only four players in history (Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Jerry Lucas) to achieve that feat

* First player to record a quadruple-double (1974) with 22 points, 14 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocked shots in an overtime victory against the Atlanta Hawks

* NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996)

[Spurminator]

Hakeem > Shaq.

Thus concludes my contribution to this article.

[spursfaninla]

Look, not giving shaq his due because he had Kobe is weak.

Besides Hakeem, none of the premiere bigmen did it alone; Kareem had Magic, Wilt didn't win until he took fewer shots, not more, and Russell had a flood of hof players at his side.

Shaq is just like any of those top 5 players; multiple rings, main or key reason for the rings.

end of talk.

I don't like shaq, and I don't like how he scores/ed (pwer game, err, offensive foul), but he was the most important component to the Lakers 3 titles.

[Polandprzem]

As for centers

Bill
Wilt
A-J
George (yes Mikan train his talent in nowdays, he dominated realy bad 7 championships & retirment in age of 29)
Moses
Hakeem
D-Rob
Shaq

Pf

Larry (If he's a big man)
Karl
Pettit
Sir charles
Kevin

Mention: Reed, Thurmond,Walton, Lanier,

[Whottt]

Solid D, I knew Elgin Baylor was classified more as SF...but he averaged over 13 boards for his career and once pulled down as many as 19pg for a season...Rebounding like that is strictly the domain of the bigmen...So he belongs in the discussion IMO..at least as much as Barkley who wasn't much bigger.

E20, saying the only reason Wilt scored more than anyone is because of a move he had, is like saying the only reason the Yankees have won the most WS is because they have had more talent than any other team...

...doesn't change the facts that they were the best.

To paraphrase the immortal words of the Flo...

That Jordan could have averaged 50 a game is an opinion...that Wilt did it is a FACT.
That others have beaten Jordan's best scoring average is a FACT.
That no one else has ever even averaged 40ppg or more in a season, besides Wilt, is a FACT.

Yao Ming is taller than a lot of guys playing in his era...so was Manute Bol, so was George Mhuersean, so was George Mikan...I didn't/don't see them averaging 50 a game.

And I gurantee you that Jordan took more shots than Wilt did to score his points.

Wilt's best assist season is better than Jordans', inspite of Jordan having the responsibility of being a ball distributor.

Jordan barely averaged 1 more APG for his career than Wilt..so your ball hog theory doesn't hold a lot of water.

Wilt fucking>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jordan or anyone else.

[Whottt]

You know, in doing some research on this subject I realized something that has changed...and seeing as how it has been the source my chapped ass in most center arguments, I am incredibly happy to announce that we can now retire one argument that was worn incredibly thin on me....

That Hakeem did it all by himself on the first title...now this opinion has long held little water with me due to the fact that the Rockets were the greatest 3 point shooting team in history that year...they made more 3 pointers than any team in history...and with names like Cassell, Horry and Elie...Most Spurfans had no doubts about the clutchness of those players even if they did lack all NBA credentials...

Now while Otis Thorpe was on that team...and was a former All Star PF, a former 20-10 player...the key component in the Drexler trade...a player who was traded for what turned out to be the #1 pick in the entire draft later in his career...

There was one thing no one could argue against in giving Hakeem credit...He, unlike every NBA champion in NBA history, excepting the 98-99 Spurs..

Had no players, that ever had been, before or since, an All Star Caliber Guard....

That bitch argument can now be fucking retired so eat shit RocketFan because the truth has been revealed...the 93-94 Rockets did in fact have an All Star Caliber guard...one who most Spurfans have argued was AS Caliber for many years...

His name is Sam Cassell..and for those who don't remember him...he was the guard who buttfucked us for 30 points off the bench the following year in the WCF game 6!...

So now we can say...Hakeem...like every other Champion except your 98-99, 02-03 Spurs and the current Champion Pistons...had a player that either was or would be an AS Guard...

And unless AJ pulls a huge bunny out of his ass this season...Or Antonio Daniels figures out what position he actually is...The 98-99 Spurs are likely to be the only team in history to win an NBA title without having a single guard who would ever play in the All Star game...

Notice I do not count the 02-03 Spurs... or the 03-04 Pistons...for good reason...Tony Parker and or Manu will be an AS before their careers are over...and Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups or Tashaun Prince will probably make one before their careers are over...and if not...Billups was the freaking playoff MVP...which beats out AS recognition...and Parker and Manu are already AS caliber...even if they don't get voted on...

But there wasn't an AS caliber guard on that 98-99 Spurs team(Sorry TimVP).....making them unique in NBA history...

And while Duncan and DRob had each other..and Elliot playing on one kidney...

They remain the only twin tower combo to win a NBA title...

Thurmond failed to do it with Wilt...Hakeem failed to do it with Sampson...and I'd argue that he failed to do it with Barkley as well since Barkley tends gets a lot of run in top 10 bigs of all time arguments, infact some idiots rate both Barkley and Hakeem over Drob in top 10 big arguments.....yet are left holding their asses when asked to explain how that combo failed to win an NBA title.......ditto Shaq and Malone.

Duncan N Robinson...best combo of all time, only tower team to win an NBA title..only ones to do it without a true AS caliber guard......their only crime was playing in the NBA's smallest market and having a large PCT of their own fans who didn't recognize their greatness.... But go ahead keep sticking guys like Moses Malone ahead of them....he who played with Dr J, Maurice Cheeks, Charles Barkley...Bob McAdoo all on the same team..and still failed to win a title.

[IcemanCometh]

thats nice whott, timvp was asking for a consensus top 10, not a who does what does whott think about this list top 10. so shut the **** up already, we got your opinion.

[Whottt]

That's reeeallly nice Ice...but TimVP also said this:


discuss


So stop trying to hijack this thread and make it about me or Raffy Palmeiro....it's impossible to have a discussion without opinions...even stupid ones, being shared.

[IcemanCometh]

shut the **** up donny

[E20]

If Wilt played in this era with the Ming's and the Shaq's and the Duncan's he'd get his balls handed down to him. It's impossible to compare two players from two completely different times. Basketball has evolved from that time, very differnt styles of play, it went from being fundamentally sound to you have to be athletic to survive in the league. Jordan and Wilt play competley different postions you can't compare, but I know for a fact that Jordan was better than Robertson, Cousy etc. or more athletic. And about Wilt being a ball hog I just made that up. LOL.

[sportcamper1]

1. Wilt Chamberlain (The greatest athlete ever to play center)

2. Lew Alcindor/ Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Bill Russell

4. Hakeem Olajuwon

5. George Mikan

6. Shaq

7. David Robinson

8. Patrick Ewing

9. Karl Malone

10. Magic Johnson (A 6’ 10” point guard that was one heck of a back up center)

[Brodels]

You said:


If Wilt played in this era with the Ming's and the Shaq's and the Duncan's he'd get his balls handed down to him.

but followed it by claiming:


It's impossible to compare two players from two completely different times.

If you can't compare players from different eras, how can you know that Wilt wouldn't be successful in today's game? Fact is, you can't.


Basketball has evolved from that time, very differnt styles of play, it went from being fundamentally sound to you have to be athletic to survive in the league.

Basketball smarts and skill still count for a lot. Duncan isn't very athletic for a big. Peja isn't very athletic. Vlade isn't much of an athlete. Most of the other best players in the league have some combination of basketball smarts and athleticism. If survival in the league depended on athleticism, Keon Clark would be a superstar.


Jordan and Wilt play competley different postions you can't compare, but I know for a fact that Jordan was better than Robertson, Cousy etc. or more athletic.

:lol There you go again. You claimed that it's impossible to compare players from different eras, but you "know for a fact" that Jordan was better than Cousy. That's impossible. They never played against each other or against the same competition. Did you even see Cousy play?


And about Wilt being a ball hog I just made that up.

No question about that.

[spursfaninla]

I just read an article about Wilt that discussed some interesting facts that dispute what I thought to be a fundamental truth differentiating todays athelete from the 60's and 70's; conditioning and athleticism.

It is said that diet and training today are superior than in the past,and with modern atheletes achieving greater speed and strength in general that seems fundamentally true.

Today's NBA athelet's body is certainly more muscular, that is undenyable.

However,

wilt interview (http://wiltfan.tripod.com/chat.htm)

States that Wilt could bench press 500 pounds when he was in his late 40's!!! When he was in his prime he had a 52 inch vert!! These were obverved.

Further, the height difference evidently is somewhat abated by the fact that in "the day" they were measured barefoot, whereas todays atheletes are often measured in shoes.

Back to Wilt's physical gifts; If that is not strong and athletic, I don't know what is. I doubt anyone not named Drob could jump with him, and I doubt even Shaq benches that much.

I'm wondering if perhaps the average NBA player is athletically better than the past, but the HOF level players' natural talent might bring them fairly close to the level of the modern best, making it a wash.

[E20]

I know you can't compare, but according to NBA Live 2004 computer vs computer, I put Jordan vs other guards and Jordan won. :lol
But the thing is you can't compare them, but by far Jordan is much more atheltic that's what I mean. Let's just say Duncan is more atheltic than wilt. Wilt is skin and bones. If you want to say Wilt was the best center of his era then ya your right.

[E20]

I know you can't compare them, but Jordan can beat them that's not comparing them that's Jordan just beating them.

[Brodels]

I know you can't compare them, but Jordan can beat them that's not comparing them that's Jordan just beating them.

That's simply an opinion. It may or may not be true. Just because Jordan is good in your video game doesn't mean he's the best in reality.

If you want to evaluate players, forget about athleticism. Examine how much they dominated against the other top players in their respective eras.

[Brodels]

Let's just say Duncan is more atheltic than wilt. Wilt is skin and bones. If you want to say Wilt was the best center of his era then ya your right.

I'm not ready to concede that Duncan is more athletic than Wilt. Duncan isn't among the most athletic big men in the game today. Wilt was an athletic freak. Wilt was the best center of his era, and he very likely would be able to compete today because athleticism and basketball smarts allow you to succeed against any kind of competition.

[E20]

You couldn't compare Jordan with anybody else 1 on 1. The name of the research article should be Best Bigmen in there era or something like that.

[E20]

Can sombody find a picture of Chamberlin. The only game I've seen him play is 1973 Knicks Vs Lakers Finals and he looked pretty skinny to me.

[Brodels]

You couldn't compare Jordan with anybody else 1 on 1.

You can compare him with other 1990s shooting guards though. You can certainly compare him with the players he competed against year after year.

Jordan was great, but was he better than Wilt? We really can't know that.

[E20]

The thing is you can't compare Center Vs PG/SG. The one scenario in my opnion is if on a game of 1 on 1 if the center gets takeout then he wins, if the guard gets the ball then he wins.

[E20]

Jordan was a rookie back then, I'm referring to his prime. They're still a lot of people who couldn't hang with Jordan in his rookie years anyway.

[Brodels]

The thing is you can't compare Center Vs PG/SG. The one scenario in my opnion is if on a game of 1 on 1 if the center gets takeout then he wins, if the guard gets the ball then he wins.

You can't compare their skillsets directly, but you can evaluate their relative dominance against the rest of the league. Each generally dominates by doing different things, but in th end, you can determine who is "better" within an era.

Otherwise, you can't say that Jordan was the best player of the 1990s. You could say that Jordan was the best guard of the 1990s, but he wasn't necessarily better than Hakeem.

But you can safely say that Jordan was better, because he dominated more than Hakeem did. Jordan could take over more games for a greater number of years.

[E20]

That I agree with Brodels.

[Brodels]

Jordan was a rookie back then, I'm referring to his prime. They're still a lot of people who couldn't hang with Jordan in his rookie years anyway.

Well, I think we're talking about the 1990s, and those were undeniably Jordan's best years. He was a rookie in the 1980s.

And you're right. A lot of people couldn't hang with him his rookie year. He could have been the best shooting guard in the league as early as his rookie season, but it doesn't make him better, than, say, a top shooting guard from the 1960s.

[E20]

Yeah because Jordan was like 2 year old.

[E20]

Jordans best years were from 84-90.

84-85:
PPG: 28.2
RPG: 6.5
APG: 5.9

85-86:
PPG: 22.7
RPG: 3.6
APG: 2.9

86-87:
PPG: 37.1
RPG: 5.2
APG: 4.6

87-88:
PPG: 35
RPG: 5.5
APG: 5.9

88-89:
PPG: 32.5
RPG: 8
APG: 8

89-90:
PPG: 33.6
RPG: 6.9
APG: 6.3

Jordan's Career Stat:
PPG: 30.1
RPG: 6.2
APG: 5.2

Wilt's Career Stat:
PPG: 30.1
RPG: 22.7
APG: 4.4

[Brodels]

Jordans best years we're from 84-90.

His statistics were better in the 1980s, but don't fool yourself into thinking that he was a better player then. He was a good player and he put up great stats, but he played on crappy teams without any other options.

Jordan was at his best after he learned to win. Once he got a decent supporting cast, he began to understand what a bad shot was and could provide the things the Bulls needed to win. Sometimes he scored a ton, sometimes he was more of a distributor. At other times he was quiet until he needed to come up with a big shot.

In Jordan's case, stats don't tell us much. He was at his best in the early 1990s, and he was still great in the middle part of the decade when he lost a little bit of athleticism but made up for it with incredible basketball smarts.

It's not a coincidence that Jordan's teams succeeded in the 1990s.

[sportcamper1]

E20- Wilt was very thin...(Wilt the stilt) but he was a freak of nature...A track star...A gym rat...A professional volleyball player in his 50’s...Jerry West called him the fastest guy on the team...Dr Jack called him the strongest guy in sports...

There is a clip of Bob Lanier size 20 feet crowding Wilt under the basket and Wilt gently brushing Big Bob back with the back of his wrist...Were talking; he pushed the guy out of the key with the back of one arm!

Wilt was a gentle giant on the court....If he played like Shaq or Malone Wilt would have hurt people...Keep in mind...Wilt never fouled out of a game Not Even Once!

People that saw Wilt play in his prime laugh at any Shaq or Kareem comparisons...Wilt was in shape & played every minute of every game...He was not a pampered athlete...Bill Russell & Wilt paved the way for today’s NBA ballas...

[sportcamper1]

Wilt Photos...

www.kskssports.com/ksks_sports/sports_illustrated/1960s/images/si6_6_20.jpg (http://www.kskssports.com/ksks_sports/sports_illustrated/1960s/images/si6_6_20.jpg)
Wilt in 1960...

www.americanphoto.co.jp/photosearch/Previews/PLX035857.jpg (http://www.americanphoto.co.jp/photosearch/Previews/PLX035857.jpg)
Wilt & Mohammed Ali....

www.bvbinfo.com/sands/images/16_9.jpg (http://www.bvbinfo.com/sands/images/16_9.jpg)
Wilt with shirt off & a couple of hotties....

espn-att.starwave.com/media/nba/1999/1012/photo/a_wiltinline.jpg (http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/nba/1999/1012/photo/a_wiltinline.jpg)
Check out the old guys guns....LMAO....

iwant.on.ca/FavPhotographers/leibovitz-wiltchamberlainwillieshoemaker.jpg (http://iwant.on.ca/FavPhotographers/leibovitz-wiltchamberlainwillieshoemaker.jpg)
Wilt & Willie Shoe...

[Polandprzem]

You compare statistics.
Well - game is diferent in '80, '90 etc.

Look at that in a team changing contest. What was the players influx(?) to the game - to the winning.
It's all about winning.

[Whottt]

You can compare Wilt to other eras by looking at his own era and see his dominance. The numbers are there to do it...It might not be so easy to do in rebounding but it is easily done in scoring. No need to try and do it across eras...no other player from Wilt's era averaged more than 38ppg....about the same as the best from Jordan's era. Wilt averaged 50...it was just as much of a freak in his era as it would have been in Jordan's era.


And you can kind of judge players across era by seeing players who overlapped...

I continually hear people claim that shooting PCT's have gone down, even from the 90's... due to the defense played..I've always thought it was because guys don't place as much emphasis on being high PCT shooters...I think the Olympics taught us that shooting is doing quite well in other parts of the world.

But you can also look at a guy like John Stockton and see that his shooting PCT's remained the same throughout his career...a career that spanned from the run n gun no D 80's to the defense oriented era we have today...and he remained a high PCT shooter and assistman in every one of those eras.


I think the changes in era are due to the talent moreso than the rules...

In the mid 90's it was common for Centers and Forwards to average 27-29 ppg..Malone, Drob, Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley...by the year 2000 it was unheard of...

Execpt by the one player who's prime bridged those eras...Shaq..his averaged never dropped until last season when he had to give up shots to other HOFers.....so I don't think it was the rules that caused the changes...I think what caused the difference in eras was the lack of talent at the center position...the late 80's - mid 90's were the golden age of the center when many talented 7 foot men walked the Earth...right now there aren't as many.

What it all means to me...there's only one Wilt...there was only one in the 60's there would be only one today.....There were only a few Jerry Wests Jordans and Gervins who shot @ or near 50% as 2 guard while leading the league in scoring(we are lucky to have a mini Gervin in Barry who shoots at that PCT)....And there haven't been many Shaqs, Drob's and Kareems and Hakeems either. But no matter how you slice it...Wilt stands all alone with that 50PPG AVG. In his era...in any era.

And baseball players aren't supposed to be able to do what Barry Bonds does in todays era either...I think that proves that Ruth's number had less to do with his era and more to do with him...just like with Barry.

A guy that can hit the ball 500-600 feet just can do it...there aren't many...a guy that can score 50ppg...there's only 1.

[Kevin Kaster]

Whottt is easily the biggest asshat on FSP.

[Whottt]

Not that I deny that...but would you care to state why, or do you just pop off like an idiot with no reason, as a general habit?

Oh wait...you're a LakerFan...if you understood reason you wouldn't be one...never mind. I'll leave you to go burn a car to celebrate something.

I will say that I will definitely look forward to hearing from you this season as your team s u c k s a s s. So be sure to stick around.

[baseline bum]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Karl Malone
6. David Robinson
7. Charles Barkley
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Moses Malone
10. Bill Russell

[Polandprzem]

One thing I know is- that you can score 50 and loose.
I know in "Wilt's era" it was freaking amazing. But you don't win with statistics. ]
For me Russell is better
why?
He was part of a team, a winning team.
If It was me who creates a team I would rather pick Russell than "the Stilt"
Yes I know -Boston many Allstars

BTW- Lakers-5 HOF- no Championship


But Yes of coure , I understand your point of view Whott

[spurster]

Maybe Arvydas Sabonis should be considered in your list.

[Solid D]

True, spurster. An analysis of his stats in the USA alone would not provide much ammunition for debate...but those stats are the tip of the iceberg.

[Solid D]

Sabas Stats - NBA
TEAM......G....GS..MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO...PF...PPG
Portland 470 314 24.2 .500 .328 .786 1.60 5.70 7.30 2.1 .79 1.05 1.78 2.70 12.0

Here are a some Euroleague stats, though only going back to 89-90.
SEASON TEAM......G PTS AVG 2FGM-A..% 3FGM-A..%....FT M-A %....REB ST AS BL
1989/90 Valladolid 37 856 23.1 315/525 60 28/69 40.6 142/208 68.3 485 41 66 119
1990/91 Valladolid 37 724 19.6 274/502 54.6 14/51 27.5 134/185 72.4 405 30 70 70
1991/92 Valladolid 36 770 21.4 272/496 54.8 24/59 40.7 154/208 74 483 41 89 73
1992/93 Real Mad. 44 767 17.4 274/485 56.5 28/63 44.4 135/179 75.4 537 52 57 82
1993/94 Real Mad. 39 674 17.3 236/376 62.8 22/54 40.7 136/174 78.2 453 52 84 78
1994/95 Real Mad. 42 963 22.9 339/535 63.4 33/100 33 186/245 75.9 526 66 101 97

Total Euroleague since 1989 - 6 seasons (235 Euroleague games)
Avg. 20.27 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 2.2 bpg

There's more out there somewhere on the years prior to 1989...more research needed.

[Tommy Duncan]

Why am I not surprised that I would open up this thread and see a filibusttter about David Robinson?

[Whottt]

Because you are the proud owner of 15-20 nicks, averaging between 2000-10000 posts each, whose total contributions to the board can be summed up as you whining and bitching about:

1.Jason Kidd
2.Spurfans being critical of a loss.
3.Ghost Writer
4.Ghost Writer
5.Ghost Writer
6.Ghost Writer
7.Ghost Writer
8.Ghost Writer
9.Ghost Writer

And

10.Me...

Making you the all time king and expert on fillibuster.

[Tommy Duncan]

Sure, it doesn't take me 1,000 words to convey something which could be written in a 20 word sentence.

Figure it out.

[Whottt]

So says you....by my perspective I can't see what you could have possibly had to say in the 50,000 posts you have made on this board that required 50,000 posts.

I think you should just start 4 threads...

1.Sign Jason Kidd
2.Ghost Writer is a negative bitch
3.Some of us didn't dessert the Spurs in 96-97
4.Whott thinks the Coyote is > Drob, Shane Heal > anyone and is a fillibustering bitch.

And we'd pretty much be able to read everything you have ever said on this board just by clicking on 4 different threads.

[Tommy Duncan]

Irrelevant. The point is that when any topic comes up for discussion you tend to deposit a 2,000 word turd right in the middle of it.

[Whottt]

False...at this moment, on the front page, I have posted in a total of 3 different threads. My participation in threads in this forum in the past 3 months is limited to a total of 3 total threads.

One thread...that asked for discussion(this one)...and I feel my points about Drob being under-rated were very valid to this topic and required extensive explanation, since obviously, many fucking morons still are barely putting him on the list and in many cases putting 2 teamates who played together and were unable to win a title, ahead of him.

And another...that no one really cared about or was participating in extensively, except for myself and 2 Argentinians.

And there is such a thing as a scroll button...I cannot dominate a topic or an argument unless the person has no mind of his own.

Well that..or unless I get drug into a flame war by morons who are being inconsiderate of the topic starter by contributing nothing to the thread other than antgonistic and derisive personal attacks.


And BTW....Spamming(otherwise known as MarcusBryanting) takes up more bandwidth than a long post.

[Tommy Duncan]

Exhibit A.

[Whottt]

I think you should just start 4 threads...

1.Sign Jason Kidd
2.Ghost Writer is a negative bitch
3.Some of us didn't dessert the Spurs in 96-97
4.Whott thinks the Coyote is > Drob, Shane Heal > anyone and is a fillibustering bitch.

And we'd pretty be able to read everything you have ever said on this board just by clicking on 4 different threads.

Exhibit B.

[Tommy Duncan]

Jump.

[Kevin Kaster]

You're a homer Whottt, and a dumb one at that. Drob doesn't even sniff the top 3 C's of all time. He can't hold any of those C's nuts.

[SAmikeyp]

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. David Robinson
7. Moses Malone
8. Karl Malone
9. Wes Unseld
10. Nate Thurmond


FWIW...If they keep playing like they are...when TD and KG retire right now I put them 6 and 7 respectively.

[E20]

Thanks for the pics sportcamper. Pretty cool. Wilt has nice some guns on the first image.

[Solid D]

Why not just have 1 day?

Think about how efficient it would be...

All birthdays and holidays on the same day...no wasted time and undue mental stress trying to figure out what day it is..no one gets their feelings hurt for a miss birthday or anniversary.

Never miss an appointment...

The human life span would be extended by tens of thousands of years.

Clearly efficiency is the best way.

:rollin
That's awesome! From "stream" to "flood" of consciousness.

[Whottt]

Kevin? Why? Why is Drob not even close to the top 3? It's easy to say he isn't...it's much more difficult to prove.

I think you need to take a little closer look at the career of David Robinson and see just how amazing it was, especially considering the financial restraints of the Spurs organization and the quality of his teamates during the prime of his career.

At the absolute worst he is a top 5 Center of all time.

I think if you look at his career objectively you will see that I am not being a Spurs homer...especially since I listed 4 Laker Centers on that list and I hate the fucking Lakers, and I'm not crazy about the Rockets either.

A homer would be someone who puts a player from his favorite team, a player who played exactly 1 game at center/pf in his entire career, on a list of the top 10 bigs of all time.

[Tommy Duncan]

Whottt likes David Robinson, but loves the man in the sweaty Coyote suit even more.

[SAmikeyp]

Using a guy who had a stroke to insult Whottt.

nice. :rolleyes

[Tommy Duncan]

:rolleyes :rolleyes

There is more than one individual who is the "Coyote" and Whottt's arguments were in regards to the Coyote character, not Derk.

[Whottt]

Actually you are wrong Marcus. My comments were 100% in regards to Tim Derk. The thread was 100% devoted to Tim Derk and I was in favor of retiring the Coyote because I didn't think anyone else should play the Coyote. I don't even like the Coyote mascot itself per se. I never gave two shits about it until I found out 1 man did it from the time I was a child till the time I was in my mid 30's. It was at that point that I realized that Tim Derks contributions to this organization, from a personal level, exceeded those of any player, if only in terms of years of service.

It was you and ecxstatic etc that twisted it into being about the Coyote character. Do try and keep better track of the lies you make up to justify a bad position in an argument.

[Tommy Duncan]

Nice try at weaseling out. You clearly were referring to the Coyote as mascot, not as man.

[Whottt]

Oh and just in case you didn't get it earlier:


I think you should just start 4 threads...

1.Sign Jason Kidd
2.Ghost Writer is a negative bitch
3.Some of us didn't dessert the Spurs in 96-97
4.Whott thinks the Coyote is > Drob, Shane Heal > anyone and is a fillibustering bitch.

And we'd pretty much be able to read everything you have ever said on this board just by clicking on 4 different threads.

This would be exhibit C.

Was yet another redundant post by you really necessary?

[IcemanCometh]

Ok so lets get this straight
Coyote>Shane Heal>Palmeiro>Robinson>Ted Williams>everyone else

[Whottt]

Um no I wasn't you colossal fucking idiot.

IF you ever bothered to read a single argument I have made on that subject you would see that my argument said that Tim Derk gave 21 years of his life and his health to this organization and he did it in total anonymity and was not paid nearly what any player was. That is part of the reason I consider his contributions, from a personal level, greater than that of any player, including David Robinson.

[Tommy Duncan]

Which is dumb. Only if you consider that his stroke was a direct result of his duties then you could say he 'gave more' than DRob.

DRob clearly meant more to the franchise than the Coyote ever did.

[Tommy Duncan]

*Whottt is tttyping*

[Whottt]

I never at any time said Derk meant more to the Spurs than Drob...

I do consider his stroke a direct result of his duties...in fact in the original thread I was having a debate with Shoogar about that very fact when the Coyote Drob crap was born.

And at the time I believe I was saying(because of my family having an extensive history with strokes) that Tim Derk's days as the regular fucking Coyote were over....and being told I wasn't a fucking doctor...Well how'd that turn out?

And I consider what Tim Derk gave to the Spurs to be on par with what Chick Hearn gave to the Lakers...Chick Hearn never played a role in LA winning a title...yet he was in many ways the face of the franchise through eras of players...just like Tim Derk was with us...He bridged Duncan, Gervin and Robinson and I bet none of us ever had a fucking clue it was the same guy all those years....and he wasn't being paid millions of dollars and being given world wide fame to do so.

[Tommy Duncan]

Magic, Kareem, Big Game James, Shaq, and Kolby have meant more to the Lakers individually than Hearn ever did.

[IcemanCometh]

New feelings brewing inside Duffman... What... WOULD JESUS DO?!

Duffman... says a lot of things! Oh, yeah!

Duffman thrusting in the direction of the problem!

Are you ready to get DUFFED?


http://www.thesimpsonsquotes.com/images/duffman.gif