#24

[Medvedenko]

GOAT:



"Well the NBA is in great hands, but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant, without hesitation." - Michael Jordan

"Kobe, in my opinion, is the best player in the NBA" - Stephon Marbury
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass.

"Kobe the best in the game right now man. Who better then Kobe?" - Amare Stoudemire

"Kobe is still the best player in the game." - Phil Jackson

"He's the best player alive".- Marc Stein

Lamar Odom said, "It's like God put Kobe here for us to watch him play basketball."

Kobe is the top player in the league." - Jason Richardson

"The MVP should be, when I look at it, I think it should be the best player in the league. Kobe is the best player in the league." - Chauncey Billups

TNT's Charles Barkley on who he believes are the best athletes in the world: "Kobe is the best basketball player in the world."

"If you want to find a player to build around, he's probably it. He's got great size for a guard, he's pretty impossible to defend, and he is hard to score against when he hunkers down on defense." - Nate McMillan

"I'm not saying that he's the most valuable player, but he's certainly the best player. And it's not even close. He is utterly dominant." - Mike D'Antoni

"Kobe is the best basketball player in the world." - Charles Barkley

"It was bitter that Kobe Bryant got injured. His presence alone would have been enough to win the tournament. That's the level I see him on. To me he is the best player in the world right now. That guy doesn't know fear at all. He doesn't care. He would have won it for the Americans single-handedly." - Dirk Nowitzki

"Kobe Bryant is the most talented player in the game today; he could do anything." - Alonzo Mourning

He's the best offensive player in the league, hands down," Bulls guard Ben Gordon


"Nobody can guard Kobe one-on-one. Nobody." - Del Harris

"I see a lot of myself in him. No doubt about it.' - Michael Jordan

Clyde Drexler was asked who the game's top player is today: "I love Yao (Ming), and I love Tracy (McGrady), but Kobe Bryant is by far the best."

"He looked wonderful," said James, who added nine assists and eight rebounds. "You didn't see him go down the middle and dunk? He looked great. I loved having him back. You always want to compete against the very best. That's my favorite player in the game."

"Of course not," James said. "They can never get back to that without Shaq and Phil (Jackson). They still have a quality team. They have the best player in basketball."

Horace Grant kept referring to Bryant as "No. 23," the number Jordan wore. It wasn't a mistake. "I knew what I was saying," Grant said.

"He's the best player in our game today, in my opinion" - Lebron James

"It's hard to guard somebody when he's feeling it. For 10 straight, he was feeling it." It?s always a big challenge battling against the best. - Vince Carter

"At the end of the day Kobe will go down as the greatest player to have ever played the game.""His mentality, his approach -- he tries to seek and destroy. There is really nothing he can't do on the basketball court. The main thing is his will. He is not satisfied with just beating you. He wants to put the dagger in you. I think that is a lost art to a certain degree in this league." - Mark Jackson

"He has no weaknesses." - Al Harrington

“He has already done legendary things on the court,” Tomjanovich said of Bryant at his first news conference as Lakers coach Saturday. “I truly believe he has a chance to become the greatest player ever to play the game."

"He's my hero." - Shaq

Kobe has a fire in his eyes like he wants to be the best," said Jamal
Crawford. "You can really see it."

"I give him all the respect in the world. He is the No. 1 player in the league, by far." Gilbert Arenas

"He ranks right there with Jordan." - Pat Riley

"He reminds me of Michael Jordan. "You look and they have similar games where they want to lead their team to victory, no matter if they have to shoot the ball every time or if they have to rebound or pass, they're going to find a way to win." I've always said that Kobe Bryant is the best scorer in our game today and he's definitely proving himself. " - Lebron James

Well, he's the best player, by far. Dirk or Nash don't really play defense. And you talk about LeBron (James), well, LeBron doesn't check Kobe, but Kobe checks LeBron. Kobe does pattern himself after Michael (Jordan) in that fact that he's going to check the best. I think that's why he's the best player, because he's one of the best scorers and one of the best defenders." - Chris Webber

That's the reason I'm here coaching, basically, because Kobe is here. I made that evident when I came back that if I was going to coach this team, Kobe is going to be here. He's in a league all to himself... He just smells blood in the water and he's going to go after it. ...That's what you see that you admire in Kobe is that he's going to attack. He's going to be in that mode. He's going to continue to go at a team until either you take him out of the ballgame or else they stop him." - Phil Jackson

"Kobe Bryant is the most complete offensive player that the game has ever seen." - Greg Anthony

Toronto's Jalen Rose:
"I'll be watching because I'm an NBA lifer -- I watch every game I can. We don't want to be the team that gave up 81 -- nobody wants to be looked at like that -- but we have to give Kobe his due. This is the best all-around player and competitor in the game. And the scary part is, he will only get better, especially with Phil Jackson on his side. He will go down as one of the all-time greats."

Cavs Guard, Eric Snow:
"Hats off, he's the best. It's hard to get 50 in a game. He did it in a half. It takes a tough player who works really hard. I think he's one of the best ever."

George Gervin:
"To compare it to anybody would be useless. He set himself apart from everyone else. Everyone looks for another Michael Jordan, and there probably won't be one. What Kobe did was establish himself as one of the greatest scorers of all time at an early age. He's a phenom. I'm a believer, man. Now we've got to sit back and wait and see if anyone scores 82."

Chicago Bulls G, Ben Gordon:" That should put all the questions to rest who's the most talented and who's the, you know, best offensive player in the league. You know if he would've had a decent first half, he might've got 100 points last night. I mean if anybody can go out there and score 25 points a quarter I would definetly say it's Kobe."

Chicago Bulls F/C, Tyson Chandler: "We're witnessing greatness right now. We need to understand that. (asked: "Is he the best of the best?") Yeah, definitely."

Mavs GM, Mark Cuban:
"It's amazing. Beyond amazing. He's on another level from any other player at this point. It's like he is toying with teams. If you push up on him, he just takes two steps back and shoots from further out. I hope the NBA adjusts its TV schedule so we all can see him play more. It would be fun to watch and fun to debate how far a one-man show can drag four other players in a team sport."

Orlando Magic Guard, Keyon Dooling:
"It's not just a buzz about Kobe, it's a holler. That guy is incredible. That's why he's the best player in the league

Orlando Magic Assistant GM, Otis Smith:
"Whether you like him or dislike him, Kobe is a special player. He has the killer instinct in him that a lot of the talented players don't have. When he smells blood, he goes for the jugular. That's a (Michael) Jordan-like quality."

Hornets Guard Kirk Snyder:
"I heard about it after I had finished hanging out with David West, and he called me and said that Kobe had scored 81. My first thought was is that I'm in the NBA with probably one of the best players ever to play in the NBA."

Jerry West:
"I don't know if anyone could have stopped him last night. It's so senseless to me to say he shouldn't take over like that. You give the same amount of shots to everybody else and they're not making that many, I know it. Players are jealous of greatness. Kobe is a unique talent and a unique person. His belief that he can jump to the moon is never going to change. But I admire him, what he's been able to overcome. You would think he would be a fair-haired man of the NBA with what's he's already done. But he's taken a fairly good battering.

Ex-Bull and now-Analyst Steve Kerr:
"I'm always one to credit the guys who win. I don't know if I would have given Kobe the M.V.P. last week. But what he did in the game last night, he's so clearly the best player out there."

[Mister Sinister]

:sleep

[Chris Childs]

Kobe is a Bitch and a Pussy at the same time - Chris Childs

[Switchman]

Lamar Odom said, "It's like God put Kobe here for us to watch him play basketball."

God has a funny sense of humor combining dominate skill with a team killing attitude.

[mavs>spurs2]

This isn't for the weak hearted ignorant spur fan who thinks Tim fucking Duncan is the best player in the league. This ought to ruffle a few feathers...by the way :tu

[Warlord23]

Most talented: yes
Greatest: Not by a long shot

[Cry Havoc]

This isn't for the weak hearted ignorant spur fan who thinks Tim fucking Duncan is the best player in the league. This ought to ruffle a few feathers...by the way :tu

See, it's strange. Duncan's teammates like him. Kobe is the greatest... yet no one can stand to be within 5 feet of the guy.

[mavs>spurs2]

See, it's strange. Duncan's teammates like him. Kobe is the greatest... yet no one can stand to be within 5 feet of the guy.

I told you to cover your ears and hide....*sighs*

[SpursDynasty]

Kobe attempts the most field goals in the NBA, therefore making the most field goals in the game, therefore APPEARING to be the best player. If Matt Bonner attempted as many shots as Kobe, he'd make them too.

[mavs>spurs2]

Kobe attempts the most field goals in the NBA, therefore making the most field goals in the game, therefore APPEARING to be the best player. If Matt Bonner attempted as many shots as Kobe, he'd make them too.

:lmao says the village idiot

[mavs>spurs2]

How's that drumming comin along Jeff?

[Chris Childs]

This topic fails just like Kobe's personality

[yourcheatinheart]

GOAT:



http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/meeks4president/raped7.jpg


http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/meeks4president/crowlaugh.gif

[z0sa]

kobe is the best scorer in the league, and among the best defenders.

but post-shaq, kobe hasnt done shit. LeBron at this point > Kobe in terms of leading and winning.

[trueD]

When Kobe's all you got, you gotta puff him up just a little.

Kobe: "Why can't I be Kevin or Paul or Ray?"

[yourcheatinheart]

kobe may be the best one on one player ever, but their is a long list ahead of him as far as basketball players go. here's your award anyway mayne.:toast

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/meeks4president/kobe3.jpg

[mavs>spurs2]

kobe may be the best one on one player ever, but their is a long list ahead of him as far as basketball players go.

I think Jordan's got him beat in that category, but he's still tops in the league today.

[Dex]

12 > 1

[LakeShow]

12 > 1


Kobe 62, Dallas 61. ...

1 > 12

[Kevin Blackistone]

And the Pistol Pete Offense with No Defense Player award for 2007 goes to...

[Leetonidas]

Kobe is by far better than anyone in this league. LeBron is not even close. After Kobe it goes Duncan, Nowitzki, Wade, Nash, and Kidd in that order.
Kidd > Garnett? Yao Ming? I don't think so man.

[BronxCowboy]

Most talented: yes
Greatest: Not by a long shot
:tu I would also add although he is the most talented player in the NBA today, it certainly does not follow that he is the most talented of all time.

[dg7md]

He is, but people have known this for a while.

[Obstructed_View]

Kobe Bryant: 4-8 in the playoffs without Shaq. He's a goat, all right.

[Findog]

Kobe's the best wing, Duncan's the best big. You can't really compare their games, each is the best at what they do in their own way. I'm sure most guys would rather play with Duncan though.

[Reggie Miller]

Broken Record Time: Having the best skill set doesn't make you the most valuable. There just aren't too many people 6'11" and taller, which is why you have such a disparity of talent at the 4/5 spots. In contrast, there are many more people who are tall enough to play the 1/2/3 spots. Having a dominant PF or C is more valuable to your team, both due to the importance of the positions and the potential for mismatches.

Historically, wing players are not as important as post players. (Look at all of the rule changes/emphases that were essentially reactions to Wilt.) That may be slowly changing due to MJ and the dearth of quality bigs, but I doubt it.

[monosylab1k]

I got no problem admitting that Kobe is the best player in the world right now, and possibly the most talented basketball player to ever live.

It's just when dumbass Lakers fans try to say he's equal to or better than Jordan that I get pissed.

Kobe will never be as great as Jordan, end of story.

[MajorMike]

Kobe might very well be the greatest talent to lace 'em up.

The are 2 key differences between Kobe and the small handful of players you could place in that same air (MJ, Larry Legend, Magic, Kareem, Cousy, etc). Not only were those players consumate teammates, but they were also revolutionary - completely re-writing some area of the game by their play.

Unfortunately, Kobe is neither.

[ambchang]

The quotes kept saying can do anything on the court, but that is not true. He can neither make his teammates better, lead his team to a decent record, or play his own style of ball (he reminds me very much of Jordan earlier on in his career, right down to the poisonous attitude).
BTW, there were two players to ever score 3000 points in one season, Kobe is neither of them.

[Medvedenko]

I'm not comparing MJ to KOBE as of right now....just throwing some quotes from other NBA all-stars, HOF's and teammates.....still better opinions than anyone, including me on this board.
I don't care if he's the best teammate or friend....it doesn't matter, does it help, yeah, it keeps scrubs in the league a lot longer being a consumate teammate and team guy...but HOF's are never, including the mighty Jordan who sold out his teammates more than anyone else I've known...the best team guys. They lead by example.

Would I give Kobe teammate of the year award...hell no, best player in the L.....yes, by far, well that's subjective. You put some talented players around him, the team prosper....wait until the Olympics and you'll all see, again, then put the blinders on.....

I remember the 81 point game....the adulation and praise...then a week later it was rapist this and rapist that....

I remember the 4 50+ games in a row, all victories no less, on a banged up Laker team to get them a playoff footing...the praise and adulation was staggering, then a week later, it was the same hate.

We are present to greatness.....

[Obstructed_View]

How many rings does #24 have again?
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/LALaker.jpg
Once a Laker, always a Laker.

[monosylab1k]

I'm not comparing MJ to KOBE as of right now....
how bout never

and nobody compares MJ to Kobe.....Kobe gets compared to MJ for whatever idiotic reason.

[Findog]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/LALaker.jpg
Once a Laker, always a Laker.


Wow, that's from a long time ago. Kobe's got a receding hairline, just like me.

[Medvedenko]

There have been questions about how Bryant, the Lakers' first scoring option, would mesh with a lineup of star players.

Krzyzewski isn't concerned.

"Kobe's as good a player as there is on the planet, and he's a very team-oriented player," Krzyzewski said. "I think he's as good defensively as he is offensively, so that's a nice thing to have."

Actually his Jordan comparison have been with him from the beginning....and they stick because he's the closest to him that there ever has been.

[monosylab1k]

Actually his Jordan comparison have been with him from the beginning

Yeah same with Harold Miner and Billy Owens and Grant Hill and on and on and on....EVERYBODY gets compared to Jordan and NOBODY has come even remotely close.

Lebron is closer to MJ than Kobe ever will be.

[Obstructed_View]

Kobe is closer to MJ than Harold Miner will ever be.

[Findog]

Yeah same with Harold Miner and Billy Owens and Grant Hill and on and on and on....EVERYBODY gets compared to Jordan and NOBODY has come even remotely close.

Lebron is closer to MJ than Kobe ever will be.

I have to disagree here...LeBron doesn't have near the work ethic that Jordan does. On talent alone, yeah, he's the closest, and he's father ahead in terms of what he's accomplished at this stage of his career than Jordan...but that's only because Jordan played two years of college ball and had to get through the Bad Boys to reach the Finals, while LeBron was an 18-yr-old rookie and only had to get past the Mildly Misbehaving Boys. When it comes to that fuck you chip on the shoulder drive that Jordan had, Kobe comes the closest. Same with playing styles, LeBron is like a Magic/MJ hybrid, Kobe's game is closer to Jordan's.

[Obstructed_View]

When it comes to that fuck you chip on the shoulder drive that Jordan had, Tiger Woods comes the closest. Nobody else with any talent is in the same universe as those two.
I like the above sentence better. Kobe scored one point in game seven against the Suns last year. On a technical free throw. It's not the first time he's pouted and done something mystifying in a playoff game that fucked his team. Jordan would never have done that.

[monosylab1k]

LeBron doesn't have near the work ethic that Jordan does.
how do u figure that?

[monosylab1k]

and LeBron's Game 5 is better than any individual game Kobe has ever played.

[Findog]

how do u figure that?

The way he coasted through a huge swath of the past regular season. I don't think Jordan would've done that. Paced himself, sure, but mailed it in, I don't think so.

[Medvedenko]

Mono....I know we've battled before...but to say Lebron is closer to Jordan is a missnomer if I've ever heard one. You ask any NBA player past and present and I bet that 90% + would say Kobe is by far the closest and also the better of the two in comparison to Lebron or Kobe. You ask journalists, well they tell a different story...trying to sell webspace and newspapers is a far cry from atually seeing the game and talent for what it is....rather than an "obstructed" view point.

[monosylab1k]

The way he coasted through a huge swath of the past regular season.
i'd rather him do that than coast in a Game 7 against Phoenix.

[monosylab1k]

Mono....I know we've battled before...but to say Lebron is closer to Jordan is a missnomer if I've ever heard one. You ask any NBA player past and present and I bet that 90% + would say Kobe is by far the closest and also the better of the two in comparison to Lebron or Kobe. You ask journalists, well they tell a different story...trying to sell webspace and newspapers is a far cry from atually seeing the game and talent for what it is....rather than an "obstructed" view point.

one-on-one, Kobe would beat LeBron 10 times out of 10. he'd probably beat jordan 5 times out of 10.

too bad the NBA isn't a one-on-one league.

[Findog]

I like the above sentence better. Kobe scored one point in game seven against the Suns last year. On a technical free throw. It's not the first time he's pouted and done something mystifying in a playoff game that fucked his team. Jordan would never have done that.

Yeah, that's a good point, although earlier in his career before he got help, Jordan had attitude problems, but he never took it that far. It also helps that Jordan went through Dean Smith's program at UNC where he learned how to be a good teammate and not make himself out to be bigger than the game. Kobe's experience was directly opposite, in many ways. I guess what I should say is that when he wants to, Kobe's competitive streak resembles MJ's in many ways. LeBron still seems to be happy go lucky in many respects, he's had so much handed to him at so early an age, he just doesn't seem to have that same hunger that Jordan and occassionally Kobe has. Although I will say that Jordan's hunger came from wanting to win at all costs and be considered the best at all costs simultaneously, while Kobe puts individual dominance first over winning.

[Obstructed_View]

one-on-one, Pistol Pete would beat LeBron 10 times out of 10. he'd probably beat jordan 5 times out of 10.

too bad the NBA isn't a one-on-one league.

[monosylab1k]

swap out Lebron with Kobe and Cleveland is fighting for the 8 seed.

[Findog]

i'd rather him do that than coast in a Game 7 against Phoenix.

Certainly can't defend that, that was weird.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, that's a good point, although earlier in his career before he got help, Jordan had attitude problems, but he never took it that far. It also helps that Jordan went through Dean Smith's program at UNC where he learned how to be a good teammate and not make himself out to be bigger than the game. Kobe's experience was directly opposite, in many ways. I guess what I should say is that when he wants to, Kobe's competitive streak resembles MJ's in many ways. LeBron still seems to be happy go lucky in many respects, he's had so much handed to him at so early an age, he just doesn't seem to have that same hunger that Jordan and occassionally Kobe has. Although I will say that Jordan's hunger came from simultaneously wanting to win at all costs and be considered the best at all costs simultaneously, while Kobe puts individual dominance first over winning.
Kobe is, hands down, the greatest scorer I've ever seen. Jordan never did the things Kobe can do when he's on a roll. Jordan was better in every other aspect of the game.

[monosylab1k]

and for the record, Kobe is not driven in any way like Jordan.

Jordan played to win, bottom line. His "selfishness" was a result of him wanting to win so badly.

Kobe doesn't play to win. Kobe plays for his own personal glory. It's tough for people to adore you and love you and call you great when your team sucks as bad as the Lakers. Don't mistake his "trade me" talk as some desire to be a winner. It's a desire for people to give a shit about Kobe again.

Why do you think he wanted Jermaine O'Neal but not Garnett? With J.O'Neal it's still THE KOBE SHOW. With Garnett he's back to sharing the spotlight.

[Medvedenko]

I just don't buy the whole Jordan is a better teammate....he bashed his teammates and coaching staff weekly in the press and to their faces. Now, he had great teammates that deffered to his talent...

Does Kobe have antisocial behaviour yes, somewhat a detriment to his team, but still he played with the most dominant big of his era and still managed to "fit in" and contribute....the most assists and steals on his team while shutting down and taking the last shots in the game. Like I said, his legacy is still being written.

[Medvedenko]

Sharing the spotlight...then why even play for the Team USA.....personal glory. Granted, he's an ego maniac, true, won't argue that, but he knows better than most that 1 man can't win the game.

[Findog]

and for the record, Kobe is not driven in any way like Jordan.

Jordan played to win, bottom line. His "selfishness" was a result of him wanting to win so badly.

Kobe doesn't play to win. Kobe plays for his own personal glory. It's tough for people to adore you and love you and call you great when your team sucks as bad as the Lakers. Don't mistake his "trade me" talk as some desire to be a winner. It's a desire for people to give a shit about Kobe again.

Why do you think he wanted Jermaine O'Neal but not Garnett? With JO it's still THE KOBE SHOW. With Garnett he's back to sharing the spotlight.

I'm not going to defend Kobe's selfishness, his preference is to be top dog AND win, but you don't think he's frustrated by the detritus Mitch Kupchak surrounded him with? We've all seen the tape, he'd rather have J-Kidd than Bynum. And who says he didn't want Garnett? I'm sure he gnashed his teeth when the trade went down.

[Medvedenko]

KG and KB are friends and have talked about playing on the same team. It didn't work out...big deal....move on. Kobe still needs to learn what it is to be humble, we'll see this year.

[monosylab1k]

And who says he didn't want Garnett?

I'd say by his reaction. Garnett-to-Lakers is the big talk and Kobe throws cold water on it by saying "Nah I still want to be traded"

Jermaine-to-Lakers talks start up and suddenly it's "You know, I still want to keep playing here!"

[Findog]

I'd say by his reaction. Garnett-to-Lakers is the big talk and Kobe throws cold water on it by saying "Nah I still want to be traded"

Jermaine-to-Lakers talks start up and suddenly it's "You know, I still want to keep playing here!"

I can't keep track of the back and forth trade demands. I'm pretty sure on the hierarchy of that team Garnett would've been Pippen to his Jordan, both in who deferred to whom in crunchtime (always been KG's weakness) as well as who was marketed as the #1 guy.

[Medvedenko]

Kobe will be a Laker this year.....true.

[Obstructed_View]

Don't mistake his "trade me" talk as some desire to be a winner. It's a desire for people to give a shit about Kobe again.
And straight out of the Phil Jackson playbook, it came on the day the Spurs won the West.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm not going to defend Kobe's selfishness, his preference is to be top dog AND win, but you don't think he's frustrated by the detritus Mitch Kupchak surrounded him with? We've all seen the tape, he'd rather have J-Kidd than Bynum. And who says he didn't want Garnett? I'm sure he gnashed his teeth when the trade went down.
Kobe had Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins and Lamar Odom and couldn't make the playoffs.

[Findog]

Kobe had Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins and Lamar Odom and couldn't make the playoffs.

Yet he made the playoffs the next year with Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Lamar Odom. So make of it what you will.

[Obstructed_View]

Yet he made the playoffs the next year with Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Lamar Odom. So make of it what you will.
He did it scoring 35 points per game on 27 shots per game. There's a diminishing return from increasing eight points on seven shots every season.

[Medvedenko]

Give me a guy who can score 35+ points per game and not shoot a lot, being the only threat and constantly trippled teamed any day. You did see the team he has had, right....

[Obstructed_View]

Give me a guy who can score 35+ points per game and not shoot a lot, being the only threat and constantly trippled teamed any day. You did see the team he has had, right....
You do know that 27.2 shots per game is a lot, right?

[Medvedenko]

Of course that's a lot....but that's 1 year.

[monosylab1k]

Of course that's a lot....but that's 1 year.
yeah, that's only 1 entire year of ballhogging. it's not like he impeded the development of younger guys like Luke Walton or Vujacic or Bynum with a ballhogging display that puts Iverson to shame.

[Findog]

yeah, that's only 1 entire year of ballhogging. it's not like he impeded the development of younger guys like Luke Walton or Vujacic or Bynum with a ballhogging display that puts Iverson to shame.

You think Vujacic has potential? He's a pussy.

[monosylab1k]

You think Vujacic has potential? He's a pussy.
it's hard to tell with anyone on that team when all they do is play defense and then run to the other end and watch kobe jack up a shot.

[Findog]

it's hard to tell with anyone on that team when all they do is play defense and then run to the other end and watch kobe jack up a shot.

My favorite Vujacic story is from the 06 playoffs when his idea of "defending" Nash was to try and body him up aggressively, only to get taken off the dribble repeatedly. Finally Nash had to pull him aside and ask "Dude, just some friendly advice, but what the fuck are you doing?"

[monosylab1k]

My favorite Vujacic story is from the 06 playoffs when his idea of "defending" Nash was to try and body him up aggressively, only to get taken off the dribble repeatedly. Finally Nash had to pull him aside and ask "Dude, just some friendly advice, but what the fuck are you doing?"
LMAO that really happened?

then again, that beats giving him a 5 foot cushion right at the 3pt line at then end of a game 6 :vomit:

[Findog]

LMAO that really happened?

Yeah, I'm not sure where I read it, maybe the McCallum book.

[Obstructed_View]

Of course that's a lot....but that's 1 year.
That's the one year he averaged over 35 points per game. You said he did it without shooting a lot. He leads the league in field goal attempts. What part of "not shooting a lot" is that?

[Findog]

LMAO that really happened?

then again, that beats giving him a 5 foot cushion right at the 3pt line at then end of a game 6 :vomit:

If it weren't for Manu and Dirk, would JET have ever been able to show his face in Dallas again? Two straight playoff exits because he failed to close out on his man.

[LakeShow]

No matter what you think of Kobe as a person, as a basketball player he is second to none! MJ went thru several teammates for 7 years before the Bulls Sniffed a title. It's ridiculous to think that to be the best you have to make ALL players better. Even the great MJ didn't do that. Until he was given a team with a top 50 NBA player (Pippen) , A top PF(Grant) /Perhaps the best rebounding PF to ever play the game(Rodman), A top center in the league (Cartwright) along with various spot up shooters (paxson, Kerr, Harper, BJ) and veteran role players (Levingston, McCray, Harper, King, Walker, etc). The Bulls won nothing. He had players such as Oakley, Green, Gervin, Banks, Woolridge, Paxson, Dailey, etc.. and couldnt get out the first round.

When Kobe had all of the above, (top 50 player, spot up shooters and veteran role players) he was a major star for 3 titles in a row for the lakers.

When it is all said and done, Kobe will be known as the best player to ever play the game. Surpassing Magic and Jordan. Deservingly so!

[monosylab1k]

No matter what you think of Kobe as a person, as a basketball player he is second to none! MJ went thru several teammates for 7 years before the Bulls Sniffed a title. It's ridiculous to think that to be the best you have to make ALL players better. Even the great MJ didn't do that. Until he was given a team with a top 50 NBA player (Pippen) , A top PF(Grant) /Perhaps the best rebounding PF to ever play the game(Rodman), A top center in the league (Cartwright) along with various spot up shooters (paxson, Kerr, Harper, BJ) and veteran role players (Levingston, McCray, Harper, King, Walker, etc). The Bulls won nothing. He had players such as Oakley, Green, Gervin, Banks, Woolridge, Paxson, Dailey, etc.. and couldnt get out the first round.

When Kobe had all of the above, (top 50 player, spot up shooters and veteran role players) he was a major star for 3 titles in a row for the lakers.

When it is all said and done, Kobe will be known as the best player to ever play the game. Surpassing Magic and Jordan. Deservingly so!

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7821/00000343362006102019151ey6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Obstructed_View]

When Derek Fisher had all of the above, (top 50 player, spot up shooters and veteran role players) he was a major star for 3 titles in a row for the lakers.

[Medvedenko]

Are you a retard OV....seriously...unless you are trying to stir the pot, it's getting pointless to continue the arguement with you. Comparing Kobe to Will Perdue, Derek Fisher is laughable at best. The guy averaged 25-28 pg while being a first team all D and averaging 5-6 assists and 6-7 rebounds per game during their 3peat. Yeah, I know we was just a scrub.

If Kobe had his career reversed and had his struggling team seasons early in his career and then winning rings later like Jordan, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

[oligarchy]

No matter what you think of Kobe as a person, as a basketball player he is second to none! MJ went thru several teammates for 7 years before the Bulls Sniffed a title. It's ridiculous to think that to be the best you have to make ALL players better. Even the great MJ didn't do that. Until he was given a team with a top 50 NBA player (Pippen) , A top PF(Grant) /Perhaps the best rebounding PF to ever play the game(Rodman), A top center in the league (Cartwright) along with various spot up shooters (paxson, Kerr, Harper, BJ) and veteran role players (Levingston, McCray, Harper, King, Walker, etc). The Bulls won nothing. He had players such as Oakley, Green, Gervin, Banks, Woolridge, Paxson, Dailey, etc.. and couldnt get out the first round.

When Kobe had all of the above, (top 50 player, spot up shooters and veteran role players) he was a major star for 3 titles in a row for the lakers.

When it is all said and done, Kobe will be known as the best player to ever play the game. Surpassing Magic and Jordan. Deservingly so!

So, A top 10 dominant center in Shaq doesn't count for anything? Shaq was number 1 in FGs and FG% during 1999-2000. In 2000-2001 they were 1 & 2 in FGs. That's hardly a comparison for any of MJs teamates. 1 and 2 in scoring!!!

I'd hardly call Cartwright a top center. And the 7 years before they sniffed a title? His first three years were first round knock outs.. followed by a 2nd round knock out. After the roster changes they came back and lost twice in row in the ECF's to the eventual champion Pistons. His 7th year, 8th, and 9th year he won titles.

[LakeShow]

So, A top 10 dominant center in Shaq doesn't count for anything? Shaq was number 1 in FGs and FG% during 1999-2000. In 2000-2001 they were 1 & 2 in FGs. That's hardly a comparison for any of MJs teamates. 1 and 2 in scoring!!!

I'd hardly call Cartwright a top center. And the 7 years before they sniffed a title? His first three years were first round knock outs.. followed by a 2nd round knock out. After the roster changes they came back and lost twice in row in the ECF's to the eventual champion Pistons. His 7th year, 8th, and 9th year he won titles.

So we penalize Kobe for having a dominant center? Kobe made the game just as easy for Shaq, as Shaq did for Kobe. Shaq too, didn't sniff a title with some very good players. Not Until the Lakers traded Eddie Jones and inserted Kobe in the starting lineup, did Shaq win his first title. A title that would not have came about if not for Kobe's heroics vs. Portland in the WCF.

[Obstructed_View]

Comparing Kobe to Will Perdue, Derek Fisher is laughable at best.
...which is EXACTLY what you idiots are doing when you mention the rings that he got by riding Shaq to three titles in a row. At best it puts him below Dwayne Wade on the greatest players list. I won't tell you Manu's a better player than Kobe, and you don't tell me Kobe deserves to be mentioned in the same paragraph as Michael Jordan, okay?


If Kobe had his career reversed and had his struggling team seasons early in his career and then winning rings later like Jordan, this wouldn't even be a conversation.
Yeah, wake me when that happens. In fact, wake me when he doesn't disappear in a game seven and we'll revisit the Mamba's greatness. :rolleyes

[oligarchy]

So we penalize Kobe for having a dominant center? Kobe made the game just as easy for Shaq, as Shaq did for Kobe. Shaq too, didn't sniff a title with some very good players. Not Until the Lakers traded Eddie Jones and inserted Kobe in the starting lineup, did Shaq win his first title. A title that would not have came about if not for Kobe's heroics vs. Portland in the WCF.

What did you say before? You said Jordan needed this player, that player, etc. Make up your mind. So he didn't need Shaq? If Shaq was Odom, he would win? I'm not saying that Kobe didn't have anything to do with the Championships, but the courses are just reversed and they had the same problems. Jordan didn't have the group around him until later in his career. Kobe had them earlier. Don't fault Jordan for his group of players earlier on the same way you don't fault Kobe for what's around him now.

[monosylab1k]

Shaq too, didn't sniff a title with some very good players.
I guess beating the Jordan Bulls and making it to the NBA Finals can be considered not sniffing a title.

[LakeShow]

You give Kobe what Jordan had in players in their prime (Pippen, Rodman etc.)and he wins titles too!

[monosylab1k]

You give Kobe what Jordan had in players in their prime (Pippen, Rodman etc.)and he wins titles too!
not six

[oligarchy]

So, Jordan wouldn't win with Shaq, Fox, Fisher, Rice, Horry, Grant, etc? I don't get your point. Are you saying that Kobe would've put them in the Finals anytime between the 84-85 season and the 89-90 season? What point are you making?

[Obstructed_View]

You give Kobe what Jordan had in players in their prime (Pippen, Rodman etc.)and he wins titles too!
Wow. Give Kobe a team that won more than 70 games and he could win a title? Gee, what an incredible talent!

[LakeShow]

I guess beating the Jordan Bulls and making it to the NBA Finals can be considered not sniffing a title.

Well if you call defeating a bulls team when MJ comes out of retirement for the final 17 games as actually beating the bulls. So be it.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't know how the topic changed to Kobe vs Jordan, Kobe might be the best in the league today but don't mention him in the same breath as Jordan.

Jordan could be a better scorer than Kobe when he wanted to (see his 37ppg one season)

He was a better defender

Better team leader

More clutch

End of discussion.

[monosylab1k]

Well if you call defeating a bulls team when MJ comes out of retirement for the final 17 games as actually beating the bulls.
i do

[Obstructed_View]

Well if you call defeating a bulls team when MJ comes out of retirement for the final 17 games as actually beating the bulls. So be it.
If you call losing in the finals in your second year in the league "not sniffing a title", so be it.

[Medvedenko]

Basically what I'm hearing.....if Kobe wins a couple of more rings it will because he has better teammates and excues will be made. Do you even watch b-ball. Did you see what my boy did during their 4 final appearances in 5 years. You can't handle the fact that not only me buy countless NBA PLAYERS and NBA COACHES have made the comparisons...but only you're the authority on comparing players....a guy argueing on a message board. Please, keep it coming, because my day needs more comedy.

[Obstructed_View]

not only me buy countless NBA PLAYERS and NBA COACHES have made the comparisons...
You've mentioned that a half dozen times, yet you care so much what we think that you keep bringing your weak-ass shit to a Spurs board. Nice job.

[LakeShow]

So, Jordan wouldn't win with Shaq, Fox, Fisher, Rice, Horry, Grant, etc? I don't get your point. Are you saying that Kobe would've put them in the Finals anytime between the 84-85 season and the 89-90 season? What point are you making?

Of course not, Jordan would win with that group. Just like Kobe did and Kobe would win with Jordans group. They are both great players, the best to ever play the game.

Not saying at all that Kobe would lead the teams that Jordan had before his title run to the championship. My point, you just can't throw 12 players on a team and expect him to make everyone better, just like Jordan didn't in his early years. Until the Lakers get better players to play with Kobe, you can't expect him to win titles every year and you can not judge his greatness by him making his teammates better.

[Obstructed_View]

Until the Lakers get better players to play with Kobe, you can't expect him to score more than one point in the second half of a game seven and you can not call him a loser just beacause he makes his teammates worse.
F

[Medvedenko]

Similarity Scores
Explanation of Similarity Scores

Most Similar Season at Age
Mouse over numbers to view names.

18. Tracy McGrady (857)
19. Carmelo Anthony (909) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
20. Ron Artest (892) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
21. Michael Jordan (939) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
22. Tracy McGrady (928) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
23. Mark Aguirre (951) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
24. Michael Jordan (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
25. Chris Mullin (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
26. Paul Pierce (946) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
27. Michael Jordan (905) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
28. Michael Jordan (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Most Similar Season
Mouse over numbers to view names.

1996-97. Winford Boynes, 1979-80 (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1997-98. Jerry Stackhouse, 1997-98 (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1998-99. Mitch Richmond, 1990-91 (950) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1999-00. Ron Harper, 1989-90 (967) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2000-01. Michael Jordan, 1984-85 (950) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2001-02. Paul Pierce, 2006-07 (957) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2002-03. Michael Jordan, 1991-92 (952) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2003-04. Michael Jordan, 1984-85 (953) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2004-05. Paul Pierce, 2003-04 (946) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2005-06. Michael Jordan, 1986-87 (944) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2006-07. Michael Jordan, 1997-98 (944) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Kobe's career in comparison to the League based on Basketball Ref.com
The similarity scores were calculated using a method that is basically a hybrid of John Hollinger's similarity scores method in Pro Basketball Forecast, Kevin Pelton's work on Hoopsworld.com, and my own ideas. Let me state up front that this is a work in progress, and any helpful comments you may have would be appreciated.


Below is a list of the thirteen categories I used for the similarity scores:

Height (Ht)
Minutes per game (Min/G)
Percentage of team field goals attempted while on the court (%Shots)
Percentage of team offensive possessions used while on the court (%Poss)
Effective field goal percentage (eFG%)
Free throw percentage (FT%)
Free throw attempts per field goal attempt (FTA/FGA)
Percentage of teammate field goals assisted (%Ast)
Turnovers per 100 possessions (%TO)
Steals per 100 opponent possessions (%Stl)
Blocked shots per 100 opponent two-point field goal attempts (%Blk)
Percentage of possible offensive rebounds (OR%)
Percentage of possible defensive rebounds (DR%)
I used a player pool that included all NBA seasons from 1977-78 to the present. Within each season, I found the standardized score (or z score) for each player in each category. League means and standard deviations were calculated in each season for each category using player minutes played as the weights. Although all players were used to determine the league means and standard deviations, similarity scores were only computed using players who played at least 25 percent of possible minutes played in the given season (in most seasons this will be roughly 1000 minutes played).


Similarity Scores
Explanation of Similarity Scores

Most Similar Season at Age
Mouse over numbers to view names.

21. Kobe Bryant (939) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
23. Tracy McGrady (883) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
24. Kobe Bryant (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
25. Paul Pierce (916) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
26. Jerry Stackhouse (895) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
27. Kobe Bryant (905) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
28. Kobe Bryant (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
29. George Gervin (894) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
32. Dominique Wilkins (908) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
33. Dominique Wilkins (928) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
34. Dominique Wilkins (927) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
38. Karl Malone (816) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
39. Karl Malone (888) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Most Similar Season
Mouse over numbers to view names.

1984-85. Kobe Bryant, 2003-04 (953) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1986-87. Kobe Bryant, 2005-06 (944) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1987-88. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1988-89. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (938) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1989-90. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (935) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1990-91. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (933) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1991-92. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (952) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1992-93. Kobe Bryant, 2005-06 (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1995-96. Mark Aguirre, 1983-84 (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1996-97. Vince Carter, 2004-05 (950) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1997-98. Dominique Wilkins, 1987-88 (947) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2001-02. Tracy McGrady, 2005-06 (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2002-03. Paul Pierce, 2003-04 (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10


Jordan Stats....

You make the call...I only post quotes... :smokin

[LakeShow]

If you call losing in the finals in your second year in the league "not sniffing a title", so be it.

Shaq did not reach the finals until his 4th year in the league.

[oligarchy]

Basically what I'm hearing.....if Kobe wins a couple of more rings it will because he has better teammates and excues will be made. Do you even watch b-ball. Did you see what my boy did during their 4 final appearances in 5 years. You can't handle the fact that not only me buy countless NBA PLAYERS and NBA COACHES have made the comparisons...but only you're the authority on comparing players....a guy argueing on a message board. Please, keep it coming, because my day needs more comedy.

The comparisons are there, as they should be, but he isn't better than Jordan. Sorry.

[monosylab1k]

Kobe's career in comparison to the League based on Basketball Ref.com
The similarity scores were calculated using a method that is basically a hybrid of John Hollinger's similarity scores method in Pro Basketball Forecast, Kevin Pelton's work on Hoopsworld.com, and my own ideas. Let me state up front that this is a work in progress, and any helpful comments you may have would be appreciated.



Jordan Stats....

You make the call...I only post quotes... :smokin
funny, not one mention of wins

[mavs>spurs2]

People forget that Jordan played in a different era, before they took out the handcheck rule, back when you were allowed to play tough hard nosed defense. If Jordan played in today's NBA, and had Kobe's me-first mentality, he would average 50ppg.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

how do u figure that?We are still waiting on that midrange game. Every year they say he has it.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Jordans team won 55 games without him.

[Medvedenko]

Different era....still no handcheck rule is obliterated by the Zone rule. PPG per team are way down than during the 80's. Defensive schemes are more advanced with scouting, real time information due to the internet etc, plus a truly global game. Defense in all sports has increased while scoring as a % is down. So just talking scoring, what Kobe has done the last few years is crazy. Especially when he's breaking records...yes in this defensive, information, scouting obsessed world.

[monosylab1k]

We are still waiting on that midrange game. Every year they say he has it.
you could say the same thing about Tony Parker. I guess this proves that Parker has a shitty work ethic also?

[monosylab1k]

Different era....still no handcheck rule is obliterated by the Zone rule. PPG per team are way down than during the 80's. Defensive schemes are more advanced with scouting, real time information due to the internet etc, plus a truly global game. Defense in all sports has increased while scoring as a % is down. So just talking scoring, what Kobe has done the last few years is crazy. Especially when he's breaking records...yes in this defensive, information, scouting obsessed world.
http://www.bu.edu/english/levine/homer.gif

[Medvedenko]

Nice pic....but "homer" while yes I realize that fighting a dead fight against Mavs and Spurs fans is fun...

[mavs>spurs2]

So now we're homers because anyone with half a brain realizes that MJ>Kobe? Don't get me wrong, Kobe's a great player, easily the best in the league today, but he's no Jordan and there will never be another. Jordan will forever symbolize the greatness that every professional athlete from here on will aspire to be, including Kobe.

[LakeShow]

People forget that Jordan played in a different era, before they took out the handcheck rule, back when you were allowed to play tough hard nosed defense. If Jordan played in today's NBA, and had Kobe's me-first mentality, he would average 50ppg.

Jordan did have a me-first mentality! Which can be argued that he had that mentality because he didn't have the players around him to do otherwise. Same as Kobe, If kobe doesnt take that attitude the lakers don't make the playoffs this season. When the Bulls put the players around Jordan it was then that he had confidence in his teammates and begun distributing the ball.

You are mistaken if you think jordan was not selfish. Remember Jordan berating Pippen for not passing him the ball on national TV after a made basket? I don't think you can be more selfish than that.

[mavs>spurs2]

Jordan did have a me-first mentality! Which can be argued that he had that mentality because he didn't have the players around him to do otherwise. Same as Kobe, If kobe doesnt take that attitude the lakers don't make the playoffs this season. When the Bulls put the players around Jordan it was then that he had confidence in his teammates and begun distributing the ball.

You are mistaken if you think jordan was not selfish. Remember Jordan berating Pippen for not passing him the ball on national TV after a made basket? I don't think you can be more selfish than that.

Well if that's the case, Jordan was a damn good me-first player who could win multiple championships without a low post presence. Kobe has yet to win one without Shaq, or any low post scorer for that matter. If Jordan was ever selfish, it was for the better of the team(see 6 straight championships). When Kobe is selfish, his team loses in the first round, IF they even make the playoffs. Can you not see the difference?

[oligarchy]

Shaq did not reach the finals until his 4th year in the league.

Actually, it was his third.

[LakeShow]

Well if that's the case, Jordan was a damn good me-first player who could win multiple championships without a low post presence. Kobe has yet to win one without Shaq, or any low post scorer for that matter. If Jordan was ever selfish, it was for the better of the team(see 6 straight championships). When Kobe is selfish, his team loses in the first round, IF they even make the playoffs. Can you not see the difference?

It wasn't 6 straight Championships.

Ok, Kobe couldn't win without a Low post Center and Jordan couldn't win without Top 50 greatest player on his team? This would prove to be true with Jordan but Kobe still has years ahead of him to prove that false in his legacy. Which is why, we state that when it's all said and done, Kobe will eclipse Jordan as the best to ever play the game.

[LakeShow]

Actually, it was his third.

My bad, you're correct.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

you could say the same thing about Tony Parker. I guess this proves that Parker has a shitty work ethic also?
I'm content with TPs shot. He can't shoot threes but he doesn't need too. Him and Wade have a better midrange game (but not a three point shot) then Bron and that's one of the reasons they get to the basket so easily. Lebron proved he can't make a shot to save his life in the finals this year.

[mavs>spurs2]

It wasn't 6 straight Championships.

Ok, Kobe couldn't win without a Low post Center and Jordan couldn't win without Top 50 greatest player on his team? This would prove to be true with Jordan but Kobe still has years ahead of him to prove that false in his legacy. Which is why, we state that when it's all said and done, Kobe will eclipse Jordan as the best to ever play the game.

It wasn't six straight because he left for baseball, but otherwise it would have been 8 straight. In his prime he was absolutely unstoppable and there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it. Unlike Kobe who seems to have a knack for stopping himself. Kobe will NEVER surpass Jordan in rings or basketball talent/skill. Book it.

[Medvedenko]

"Kobe stopping himself".....that's the only truth I heard on this board....

[LakeShow]

It wasn't six straight because he left for baseball, but otherwise it would have been 8 straight. In his prime he was absolutely unstoppable and there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it. Unlike Kobe who seems to have a knack for stopping himself.

Sounds just like Kobe to me!

Title Appearances and championships in first 7 seasons

Kobe - 3, 3 Titles
Shaq - 1, 0 Titles
Jordan - 0, 0 Titles

[mavs>spurs2]

Sounds just like Kobe to me!

Title Appearances and championships in first 7 seasons

Kobe - 3, 3 Titles
Shaq - 1, 0 Titles
Jordan - 0, 0 Titles

Since when do first 7 seasons > career accomplishments? Like I said, if you want to count titles, Kobe will NEVER surpass Jordan in that category for their careers. And even if he somehow did, there's always the arguement that Jordan would have had 2 more if he hadn't left for baseball. You're fighting a losing arguement, and no one but other delusional Laker fans will back you up. (For the most part the Lakers have a great fanbase, though) How anyone could think Kobe>Jordan is beyond me.

[LakeShow]

Since when do first 7 seasons > career accomplishments? Like I said, if you want to count titles, Kobe will NEVER surpass Jordan in that category for their careers. And even if he somehow did, there's always the arguement that Jordan would have had 2 more if he hadn't left for baseball. You're fighting a losing arguement, and no one but other delusional Laker fans will back you up. (For the most part the Lakers have a great fanbase, though) How anyone could think Kobe>Jordan is beyond me.

I don't know if you're comprehending this or not.




When it is all said and done, Kobe will be known as the best player to ever play the game. Surpassing Magic and Jordan. Deservingly so!

That's not saying KOBE is the best to play the game, NOW!


Sounds just like Kobe to me!

Title Appearances and championships in first 7 seasons

Kobe - 3, 3 Titles
Shaq - 1, 0 Titles
Jordan - 0, 0 Titles


I think instead of those saying Kobe could not win a title without Shaq, it should be Shaq could not have won those titles without Kobe!

[oligarchy]

Sounds just like Kobe to me!

Title Appearances and championships in first 7 seasons

Kobe - 3, 3 Titles
Shaq - 1, 0 Titles
Jordan - 0, 0 Titles

Well, in order to get more rings in the same amount of time, he would have to get the next four. He would need three of four rings to tie the number of championships. Is it happening? I doubt it.

Kobe -- 11 seasons -- 3 rings
Jordan -- 15 seasons -- 6 rings

[oligarchy]

I don't know if you're comprehending this or not.



That's not saying KOBE is the best to play the game, NOW!




I think instead of those saying Kobe could not win a title without Shaq, it should be Shaq could not have won those titles without Kobe!

He's been to two Finals without him and won a ring. So could it have been any other decent SG and he would have still won the rings in LA? Possibly.

[LakeShow]

Well, in order to get more rings in the same amount of time, he would have to get the next four. He would need three of four rings to tie the number of championships. Is it happening? I doubt it.

Kobe -- 11 seasons -- 3 rings
Jordan -- 15 seasons -- 6 rings

He may never win as many titles as jordan but if he can win a couple more, he will be considered the best player to play the game, imo. Bill Russell won 11 titles and nobody's calling him the best of all time.

[LakeShow]

He's been to two Finals without him and won a ring. So could it have been any other decent SG and he would have still won the rings in LA? Possibly.

That's speculation. Different teams, different times. If Kobe had Timmie instead of Shaq would they have won those titles? Who knows, but the fact is that Shaq had Penny and Jones but did not win a title. When paired with Kobe, 3 straight titles and 4 Championship appearances.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't know if you're comprehending this or not.



That's not saying KOBE is the best to play the game, NOW!




I think instead of those saying Kobe could not win a title without Shaq, it should be Shaq could not have won those titles without Kobe!

First of all, you shouldn't be talking down to anyone especially when you're the one making ridiculous claims. Of course I know what you're saying, but it's not true. When it's all said and done, Kobe will be another top 50 all time player but not the best in anyones book. There will never be another Jordan, at least not in this generation.

And I don't know what point you're trying to make with the Shaq comment, but SHAQ has won a championship since the breakup but KOBE has not. Not to mention Shaq is older and no longer even in his prime.

[oligarchy]

He may never win as many titles as jordan but if he can win a couple more, he will be considered the best player to play the game, imo. Bill Russell won 11 titles and nobody's calling him the best of all time.

During Bill Russell's era there were 8 teams in the league for the majority of his titles. While impressive, it's not exactly a statistical anomaly. I'll take 6 rings in a decade with 27 or more teams and much more talent.

[oligarchy]

That's speculation. Different teams, different times. If Kobe had Timmie instead of Shaq would they have won those titles? Who knows, but the fact is that Shaq had Penny and Jones but did not win a title. When paired with Kobe, 3 straight titles and 4 Championship appearances.

The point of the post:

I think instead of those saying Kobe could not win a title without Shaq, it should be Shaq could not have won those titles without Kobe!

The point was Shaq can and has won without him. Kobe hasn't -- it's why people would say Kobe can't win without Shaq.

[LakeShow]

During Bill Russell's era there were 8 teams in the league for the majority of his titles. While impressive, it's not exactly a statistical anomaly. I'll take 6 rings in a decade with 27 or more teams and much more talent.

So that means Robert Horry should be considered the best player to ever play the game, right? 7 rings with exceptional talent in the league and 27 teams? :)

forget that. I'm tired. :toast

[LakeShow]

First of all, you shouldn't be talking down to anyone especially when you're the one making ridiculous claims. Of course I know what you're saying, but it's not true. When it's all said and done, Kobe will be another top 50 all time player but not the best in anyones book. There will never be another Jordan, at least not in this generation.

And I don't know what point you're trying to make with the Shaq comment, but SHAQ has won a championship since the breakup but KOBE has not. Not to mention Shaq is older and no longer even in his prime.

I'm not trying to talk down on you but you keep insinutating that I said something that I did not. For you to tell the future and know it is the truth is remarkable in itself.

Last time: Shaq had very good SG's in his early years and did not win so you can not say that he would have won with any good SG because he did not. Wade is not just any good SG, he is a superstar!

[oligarchy]

So that means Robert Horry should be considered the best player to ever play the game, right? 7 rings with exceptional talent in the league and 27 teams? :)

forget that. I'm tired. :toast


:lol Horry as GOAT

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Kobe is a great player and is the best in the game today most likely but if you won't help him by comparing him to Jordan. In fact, it only makes people hate him more then they already do.

[td4mvp21]

Who's won a title without another superstar on the team?

[ambchang]

Who's won a title without another superstar on the team?
Duncan in 03.
The whole Pistons team in 04.
The Sonics team in 79.

[LakeShow]

Who's won a title without another superstar on the team?

:lol Not Timmie, He moved into Mr.Robinson's neighborhood for 2 and had the GOAT: Robert Horry on his team for the other two.

:fro

[LakeShow]

Kobe is a great player and is the best in the game today most likely but if you won't help him by comparing him to Jordan. In fact, it only makes people hate him more then they already do.

"I see a lot of myself in him. No doubt about it.' - Michael Jordan

[Obstructed_View]

My bad, you're correct.
Yeah, sorry. It was his second playoff appearance. He didn't make the playoffs his rookie year.

[SpursDynasty]

Kobe can't win a championship without Shaq. End of story. He doesn't make his team better either.

Duncan can win a championship without Shaq AND makes his team better.

[mavs>spurs2]

Kobe can't win a championship without Shaq. End of story. He doesn't make his team better either.

Duncan can win a championship without Shaq AND makes his team better.

I also heard that Jeff is a better drummer than Kobe

[E20]

Kobe is the best SG and probably player with the talent and skill set in the world, but he isn't the type of player that will siginificantly improve the team and win a 'ship. Basically what I'm saying if you were to rate an individual player alone on skill set and talent Kobe would be up there near or at number 1. I can't compare TD and KB24, because they play different positions and PF/C's have it easier than guards. Everybody knows that dynasty's and championship caliber teams (excludes Jordan's Bulls) are built around a strong front court. Now, if Kobe was a 6-11 - 7 foot PF/C, then that would be BALLIN' :hat

[Medvedenko]

We'll see if the USA team wins the Olympics and World's.....guarantee when they win, it will because of Kobe. They haven't done shit lately....their saviour is here.

[Obstructed_View]

It'll be nice for Kobe to finally win something. Of course, Kobe was built for all-star teams.

[Testing]

You put Lebron or Wade on the Lakers team this past 3 seasons in the WESTERN CONFERENCE...and guarantee they are a lottery team.

The East is unbelievably weak. People say Lebron took his team to the finals? He beat a Wiz team without Arenas or Butler. He beat a 3 man team with the Nets with 2 of the biggest chokers in the game: Jefferson and Carter. Then he hit his stride at the right time against a defensively weak Pistons team. Kobe goes on a tear like Lebron did in Game 5 on a regular basis. People forget that.

Western conference is very, very hard compared to the East. Kobe isn't without his faults, he still doesn't have a good grasp on when to pass the ball and when to shoot, and sometimes he gets too competitive if there is such a thing, and maybe he doesn't neccesarily make his teammates better the way a Duncan or Nash do........but then again he has Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Sasha Vuijic to pass to. I'm not sure even Nash could make those players better! :lol

He's the best player in the game right now...and he's not retiring anytime soon. He still has time to win championships, score 82 points, etc. so he has time to become the greatest ever perhaps.

[monosylab1k]

We'll see if the USA team wins the Olympics and World's.....guarantee when they win, it will because of Kobe. They haven't done shit lately....their saviour is here.
after hearing this I just might root for USA to not even medal at the Olympics now.

It sickens me to think that Kobe is the savior of anything other than Eagle County police officer boredom.

[Medvedenko]

It sickens me to think that Kobe is the savior of anything other than Eagle County police officer boredom

....and there Mono...you lose all b-ball credibility and respect. Too sad...but then again it's forum for everyone to spout their opinions...to bad it's regarding on court behaviour not off court.

[monosylab1k]

....and there Mono...you lose all b-ball credibility and respect. Too sad...but then again it's forum for everyone to spout their opinions...to bad it's regarding on court behaviour not off court.
how is this? i said nothing regarding Kobe's off court behavior....i just said he kept Eagle police officers busy for a few months....is that not true?

the only credibility being killed is with any idiot who thinks Kobe comes anywhere close to Jordan's greatness.

[LakeShow]

We'll see if the USA team wins the Olympics and World's.....guarantee when they win, it will because of Kobe. They haven't done shit lately....their saviour is here.

If Kobe pulls that off, he won't need a couple of more Championships to be considered the GOAT!

[Medvedenko]

I still don't think Kobe is better than Jordan overall.....the stats and rings prove otherwise.

But the whole point of this thread was to draw comparisons and that it's ok to compare MJ to KB....nothing more nothing less.

[monosylab1k]

it's ok to compare MJ to KB
it's okay to compare anybody to MJ....it's been going on for 15 years now. it's just stupid to do it because ZERO players have come REMOTELY CLOSE to the greatness of Jordan.

[stretch]

If Kobe pulls that off, he won't need a couple of more Championships to be considered the GOAT!
Pulls what off? Doing what the US team is SUPPOSED to do (winning gold), but can't because they are too fucking lazy to play the right way?

[stretch]

it's okay to compare anybody to MJ....it's been going on for 15 years now. it's just stupid to do it because ZERO players have come REMOTELY CLOSE to the greatness of Jordan.
Although he will never be as good or better than Jordan, IMO, Kobe will go down as the greatest SCORER to ever play the game. Personally I think he is a little more gifted than Jordan was offensively. But hes not as good of a defender, and nowhere nearly as good of a leader and winner.

[monosylab1k]

Pulls what off? Doing what the US team is SUPPOSED to do (winning gold), but can't because they are too fucking lazy to play the right way?
they have no shot in hell at playing sound team ball if Kobe is there

[monosylab1k]

Although he will never be as good or better than Jordan, IMO, Kobe will go down as the greatest SCORER to ever play the game. Personally I think he is a little more gifted than Jordan was offensively. But hes not as good of a defender, and nowhere nearly as good of a leader and winner.
yeah maybe so. i've also said before that Kobe is more physically gifted than Jordan.....but he'll never come close to the master Jordan was.

You either have to be a Lakers homer or have to be so young that you never saw Jordan in his prime to think that Kobe can even compare to Jordan.

[LakeShow]

I still don't think Kobe is better than Jordan overall.....the stats and rings prove otherwise.

But the whole point of this thread was to draw comparisons and that it's ok to compare MJ to KB....nothing more nothing less.

True dat MJ is MJ, and Kobe is Kobe, Mike has more rings and Finals MVP, but 3 titles, an 81 point game ( 2nd highest total in the history of the NBA ), 62 in 3 quarters, four 50 point games in a row, all wins (never accomplished before) is nothing to sneeze at. Kobe deserves his due and it is not out of reach that one day he will be considered the GOAT. Most definitely will be a legend!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FRQNre51P8I

[monosylab1k]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FRQNre51P8I

LOL that whole time all I could think during every highlight was "travel.....travel.....another travel......MASSIVE TRAVEL he took like 6 steps......travel.....travel"

eventually i just shut it off, couldn't take it anymore.

[monosylab1k]

he does have some sick dunks tho.....he could beat Jordan in a dunk contest, no doubt. he might be the best dunker of all time, definitely the best in-game dunker.

[SpursDynasty]

You put Lebron or Wade on the Lakers team this past 3 seasons in the WESTERN CONFERENCE...and guarantee they are a lottery team.

The East is unbelievably weak. People say Lebron took his team to the finals? He beat a Wiz team without Arenas or Butler. He beat a 3 man team with the Nets with 2 of the biggest chokers in the game: Jefferson and Carter. Then he hit his stride at the right time against a defensively weak Pistons team. Kobe goes on a tear like Lebron did in Game 5 on a regular basis. People forget that.

Western conference is very, very hard compared to the East. Kobe isn't without his faults, he still doesn't have a good grasp on when to pass the ball and when to shoot, and sometimes he gets too competitive if there is such a thing, and maybe he doesn't neccesarily make his teammates better the way a Duncan or Nash do........but then again he has Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Sasha Vuijic to pass to. I'm not sure even Nash could make those players better! :lol

He's the best player in the game right now...and he's not retiring anytime soon. He still has time to win championships, score 82 points, etc. so he has time to become the greatest ever perhaps.

Exactly. Which is why the "star" LeBron got swept in the West. The West is an entirely different story than the East. The East is like playing high school ball. The West are the pros.

[LakeShow]

LOL that whole time all I could think during every highlight was "travel.....travel.....another travel......MASSIVE TRAVEL he took like 6 steps......travel.....travel"

eventually i just shut it off, couldn't take it anymore.

:lol Stop Hatin! The boy is awesome!

[monosylab1k]

Exactly. Which is why the "star" LeBron got swept in the West. The West is an entirely different story than the East. The East is like playing high school ball. The West are the pros.
this was a decent thread with some good debating, but it's just been killed. I have no more interest posting in this thread anymore. nice debating with all you Laker Homers.

[LakeShow]

he does have some sick dunks tho.....he could beat Jordan in a dunk contest, no doubt. he might be the best dunker of all time, definitely the best in-game dunker.

:clap

[ambchang]

he does have some sick dunks tho.....he could beat Jordan in a dunk contest, no doubt. he might be the best dunker of all time, definitely the best in-game dunker.

Carter, Nique and Shawn Kemp says "Hi!"

[Obstructed_View]

he does have some sick dunks tho.....he could beat Jordan in a dunk contest, no doubt. he might be the best dunker of all time, definitely the best in-game dunker.
That's a bold fuckin' statement, Lance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txela2VuI7A

[Reggie Miller]

Dear World:

Remember me?

Love,

Julius Erving

[stretch]

they have no shot in hell at playing sound team ball if Kobe is there
I'm not saying hes going to improve the team. But for that dude to say that he will be the GOAT if he leads a team to victory that is SUPPOSED to dominate other teams, thats not saying much. However, I think his scoring will help the team in some ways. He is the most unstoppable offensive force in the world, and has a lot more experience than some guys, like Lebron and Wade, and knows how to score in strange defenses more than them. But if the US wins gold, I don't think it will be solely because of Kobe Bryant.

[stretch]

yeah maybe so. i've also said before that Kobe is more physically gifted than Jordan.....but he'll never come close to the master Jordan was.

You either have to be a Lakers homer or have to be so young that you never saw Jordan in his prime to think that Kobe can even compare to Jordan.
Agreed.

[TheNextGen]

Mono's chin is starting to smell like Jordan's nuts.

[LakeShow]

That's a bold fuckin' statement, Lance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txela2VuI7A


http://youtube.com/watch?v=zKf7UV15t-E&mode=related&search=

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

"I see a lot of myself in him. No doubt about it.' - Michael Jordan
That doesn't mean he is better then him. Only that he plays alot like him which is obvious. If you say kobe is the best in the game right now alot of people will agree with you but comparing a 46% shooting first round exiting Kobe to the Goat will only result in ridicule. And I'm not even a Kobe hater.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Although he will never be as good or better than Jordan, IMO, Kobe will go down as the greatest SCORER to ever play the game. Personally I think he is a little more gifted than Jordan was offensively. But hes not as good of a defender, and nowhere nearly as good of a leader and winner.
He shoots under 50% and has only averaged over 30 points twice. Doesn't MJ have like 10 scoring titles in a tougher era?

[Obstructed_View]

I'm not saying hes going to improve the team. But for that dude to say that he will be the GOAT if he leads a team to victory that is SUPPOSED to dominate other teams, thats not saying much. However, I think his scoring will help the team in some ways. He is the most unstoppable offensive force in the world, and has a lot more experience than some guys, like Lebron and Wade, and knows how to score in strange defenses more than them. But if the US wins gold, I don't think it will be solely because of Kobe Bryant.
It won't be solely because Manu's watching it on TV, either, but they both carry about the same weight.

[Medvedenko]

Like I said before....read the first post in this thread...the quotes.....actuall players and coaches....not me...but then again, believe what you will, it will always make you feel better.

[Obstructed_View]

Like I said before....read the first post in this thread...the quotes.....actuall players and coaches....not me...but then again, believe what you will, it will always make you feel better.
Like I said before, look at his record without Shaq to carry him. Actual wins and losses. But then again, believe what you will; it will always make you feel better.

[TheNextGen]

Kobe's definately a better scorer...maybe even better skilled than Jordan...but Jordans 6 rings will always leave Kobe 2nd behind him unless proven otherwise.

[MONTENEGRINO]

kobe is the best scorer in the league, and among the best defenders.
We all know that... :king


but post-shaq, kobe hasnt done shit. LeBron at this point > Kobe in terms of leading and winning.
Bullshit. If Kobe was there instead of LBJ, Spurs might have no won the finals... At least, not even 4-2....
Kobe is the best of today, no doubt. LAL is so weak team that without KOBE they wouldn't make EUROLEAGUE phase 2, no talking about final 4...

[MONTENEGRINO]

Dear World:

Remember me?

Love,

Julius Erving
Pfffff....... Not even close to Kobe, Nique and VC in game dunks...

[Obstructed_View]

Pfffff....... Not even close to Kobe, Nique and VC in game dunks...
Tell Michael Cooper that.

[LakeShow]

That doesn't mean he is better then him. Only that he plays alot like him which is obvious. If you say kobe is the best in the game right now alot of people will agree with you but comparing a 46% shooting first round exiting Kobe to the Goat will only result in ridicule. And I'm not even a Kobe hater.

I posted that in response to the post that we shouldn't compare the two, but if Michael Jordan is making comparisons, why shouldn't the fans?

[td4mvp21]

:lol Not Timmie, He moved into Mr.Robinson's neighborhood for 2 and had the GOAT: Robert Horry on his team for the other two.

:fro

You might want to look back at the 2003 season and then correct yourself. There was no superstar, nor consistent player for that matter, other than Duncan.

Oh, and I didn't know Horry was a superstar!

[LakeShow]

You might want to look back at the 2003 season and then correct yourself. There was no superstar, nor consistent player for that matter, other than Duncan.

Oh, and I didn't know Horry was a superstar!

I was just kidding

[LakeShow]

The Spurs don't need two superstars anyway, they have the guys in the stripes w/whistles and the man in charge (stern)on their side. :fro :drunk

[td4mvp21]

The Spurs don't need two superstars anyway, they have the guys in the stripes w/whistles and the man in charge (stern)on their side. :fro :drunk

:dramaquee

[jbspurs]

Kobe attempts the most field goals in the NBA, therefore making the most field goals in the game, therefore APPEARING to be the best player. If Matt Bonner attempted as many shots as Kobe, he'd make them too.

:smokin :smokin :smokin :smokin

By the way I hate Kobe and Im a Spurs fan!

[Reggie Miller]

Pfffff....... Not even close to Kobe, Nique and VC in game dunks...

If you had seen Dr. J play in person, you wouldn't say that. He wasn't as flashy as later players, but he more or less invented the idea of the dunk as an offensive weapon, as opposed to a Harlem Globetrotters' routine. When he was younger, Dr. J could take off from near the top of the key and dunk over/thorugh an entire opposing team. I've never seen the three players you list even attempt something like that.

[Medvedenko]

I guess you never seen Kobe, Nique, or VC play as well....each of them have dunked on numerous players taking off from great distances. Still, I love Dr. J.....

[Fillmoe]

greatest in the game right now, and im a kings fan. so theres no bias

[Reggie Miller]

I guess you never seen Kobe, Nique, or VC play as well....each of them have dunked on numerous players taking off from great distances. Still, I love Dr. J.....

I've never seen anyone do it regularly from as far as Dr. J could. I've never seen any of those guys take off from past the free-throw line in a game situation. (I'm not arguing they never did; I'm saying they didn't do it regularly enough that I recall.)

In general, I have a knee-jerk reaction to anyone saying Vince Carter could do anything better than Dr. J. Julius Erving was the Michael Jordan of my youth, and he is largely forgotten today. It makes me sad. :depressed

[Medvedenko]

I'm not hatin' RM....I love Dr. J...my favourite player next to Magic for quite some time.

[ambchang]

I've never seen anyone do it regularly from as far as Dr. J could. I've never seen any of those guys take off from past the free-throw line in a game situation. (I'm not arguing they never did; I'm saying they didn't do it regularly enough that I recall.)

In general, I have a knee-jerk reaction to anyone saying Vince Carter could do anything better than Dr. J. Julius Erving was the Michael Jordan of my youth, and he is largely forgotten today. It makes me sad. :depressed

With videos like this, it would be extrememly hard to forget the Dr.!

But with dunks like these, it's really hard to argue anybody being better than Carter.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3zIULG3IbiE&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SzXXWVqpwWo&mode=related&search=
I mean, how many people can jump over a person 7'2"? How many people can do an alleyoop windmill? And the guy does it all the time.

Screw this, let's decide for yourself.

Rainman:http://youtube.com/watch?v=gtwbI0_bU6o
Nique: http://youtube.com/watch?v=EgIpQQ2eLaI (His #1 is my favourite dunk of all time. Spin through two defenders, double-pumped, turned side-ways and dunked on 7'1" Tree Rollins right in the face.)
The Glide: http://youtube.com/watch?v=SvjJA93Xy9Y

[MONTENEGRINO]

No, I didn't see Nique, VC or Kobe playing live, but I have something so called TV...:D
And, I love Dr.J not as much as MJ, but I'll always pick Kobe or VC over both of them when we are talking 'bout dunking in game.
And 'cradle' on Cooper is better than Kobe over Dwight? On Yao? On Knicks (Spree)? On Nuggets? C'mon man...
And yes, The Glide had jump range better than Dr.J. ... like MJ...

[midnightpulp]

Interesting thread and discussion about Kobe's perceived greatness before the advanced stats era really took hold.

And who would've thought back then, when Kobe was scoring 81 points and 62 in 3 quarters, that his actual empirical impact was on the level of Baron Davis :lol

[Medvedenko]

Interesting thread and discussion about Kobe's perceived greatness before the advanced stats era really took hold.

And would've thought back then, when Kobe was scoring 81 points and 62 in 3 quarters, that his actual empirical impact was on the level of Baron Davis :lol

No one cares about your #'s.

[midnightpulp]

No one cares about your #'s.

GMs do.

[RsxPiimp]

My favorite Vujacic story is from the 06 playoffs when his idea of "defending" Nash was to try and body him up aggressively, only to get taken off the dribble repeatedly. Finally Nash had to pull him aside and ask "Dude, just some friendly advice, but what the fuck are you doing?"

:lol

[100%duncan]

:lmao

[scanry]

Surely Shaq didn't say that.