Seattle is done fucking around Clay

[Findog]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/08/23/blabbermouth-sonics-owner-hit-with-250-000-fine/

The iron fist of David Stern says you should shut up, Aubrey McClendon. The Sonics minority owner, who two weeks ago told a newspaper his buddies never intended to keep the team in Seattle, got smacked up for a $250,000 fine by the league, reports Percy Allen of the Seattle Times.

McClendon's a fat cat energy baron, though -- even a gross sum like a quarter-million is a 'September budget for imported cheese' or something for guys like Aubrey. A potentially bigger penalty, though? The city of Seattle is pissed, and it looks like they're going to take it out on McClendon and buddy Clay Bennett. From the Seattle Post-Intelligencer's Greg Johns:

Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis, who said in June that any lease could be renegotiated, now is drawing a much firmer line in the sand. [...]

"Their desire to leave town is really not the city's problem," Ceis said Wednesday. "That is their problem. They bought a team that they knew had a lease through the 2010 season. We think staying is their best option. [...] We think Mr. Bennett should work with us to that end. Or perhaps they bought the wrong franchise. Maybe they need to consider that. They may have ownership on paper, but the Sonics are still Seattle's team."

Well it's good to know a year into this mess, civic leaders in Seattle finally seem passionate about getting a solution. Even letting the fans soak up an extra two years of Kevin Durant goodness would be a victory at this point.

[duncan228]

...Or perhaps they bought the wrong franchise. Maybe they need to consider that. They may have ownership on paper, but the Sonics are still Seattle's team."

Well it's good to know a year into this mess, civic leaders in Seattle finally seem passionate about getting a solution. Even letting the fans soak up an extra two years of Kevin Durant goodness would be a victory at this point.

Nice.

I'm hopeful the Sonics fans get to keep the team they've supported with passion.

[mardigan]

Fuck that, owners should be able to move their teams wherever the fuck they want

[duncan228]

Fuck that, owners should be able to move their teams wherever the fuck they want

Maybe, but they said they were staying when they bought them and then said they had no intention of staying.

Shouldn't they be held accountable?

[Findog]

Fuck that, owners should be able to move their teams wherever the fuck they want

Does that apply to a future owner of the Spurs not satisfied with the AT&T Center?

[mardigan]

I just find it funny that the City Council now is trying to pass a law to force them to stay.

[Findog]

I just find it funny that the City Council now is trying to pass a law to force them to stay.

I think they're angry over the realization that the ownership group hasn't been straight with them from the get-go.

[duncan228]

I think they're angry over the realization that the ownership group hasn't been straight with them from the get-go.

I would be too.

I know it's a business, but staying true to your word should be expected.

The Sonics fans are really into their team, I'm glad that the team may stay.

[mardigan]

I would be too.

I know it's a business, but staying true to your word should be expected.

The Sonics fans are really into their team, I'm glad that the team may stay.
They have been in the bottom 10 of attendance the last 5 years (and I couldnt find attendance before that, so who knows), I dont know if that really screams into their team

[duncan228]

They have been in the bottom 10 of attendance the last 5 years, I dont know if that really screams into their team

I lived there from '97-'04.

Key Arena might not fill up but the fans that are there are passionate.

I have only been in a few NBA arenas, but that place rocked no matter who they were playing. (We were at 15-20 home games in any given year while we lived there.)

And again, what matters to me is the blatent lying this new ownership group did. The fans deserve better even if the arena doesn't sell out every game.

[mardigan]

I lived there from '97-'04.

Key Arena might not fill up but the fans that are there are passionate.

I have only been in a few NBA arenas, but that place rocked no matter who they were playing. (We were at 15-20 home games in any given year while we lived there.)

And again, what matters to me is the blatent lying this new ownership group did. The fans deserve better even if the arena doesn't sell out every game.
Havent the new owners been saying all along that they wanted a new arena?
Key Arena is like 13 years old, and the owners want a new arena, I can completely understand where they are coming from. The OK city fans sold out pretty much every game with a team that wasnt even theirs. I can understand ownership wanting to move the team

[Findog]

They have been in the bottom 10 of attendance the last 5 years (and I couldnt find attendance before that, so who knows), I dont know if that really screams into their team

They've sold something like 90% of their tickets even while the team has sucked post-Kemp and Payton. Most fans, no matter the sport, no matter the city, are fair-weather fans. They show up to watch winners and shun losers. It's very rare for losing teams to be a big draw.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know the specific terms of the lease, only that it runs through 2010. If there is no escape clause for the Sonics, the Seattle has about a year to bend over and build another arena for them.

[mardigan]

They've sold something like 90% of their tickets even while the team has sucked post-Kemp and Payton. Most fans, no matter the sport, no matter the city, are fair-weather fans. They show up to watch winners and shun losers. It's very rare for losing teams to be a big draw.
Well thats part of the problem man, the stadium only holds like 17,000, so even if they sold out every game, they would still be down the list on the attendance records. Thats just not enough max people to be able to fit into a stadium.

[duncan228]

Havent the new owners been saying all along that they wanted a new arena?
Key Arena is like 13 years old, and the owners want a new arena, I can completely understand where they are coming from. The OK city fans sold out pretty much every game with a team that wasnt even theirs. I can understand ownership wanting to move the team

Everyone wants a new arena, it's been an issue for years.

I also understand where the new owners are coming from, my problem with them is they weren't up front about it. (Like Findog said.)

Don't give the fans hope that you'll be the ones to work with the city and solve a long standing issue and then say you never intended to. That's just a shitty thing to do.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't give the fans hope that you'll be the ones to work with the city and solve a long standing issue and then say you never intended to. That's just a shitty thing to do.That's why it cost the guy $250,000.

Not much else to be done though.

Except build an arena for them of the next NBA team that wants to move.

[duncan228]

That's why it cost the guy $250,000.

Not much else to be done though.

Except build an arena for them of the next NBA team that wants to move.

I'm glad it did cost him.

And like the article said,

"Well it's good to know a year into this mess, civic leaders in Seattle finally seem passionate about getting a solution. Even letting the fans soak up an extra two years of Kevin Durant goodness would be a victory at this point."

If I were still there I'd consider it a victory too.

[sandman]

Havent the new owners been saying all along that they wanted a new arena?
Key Arena is like 13 years old, and the owners want a new arena, I can completely understand where they are coming from. The OK city fans sold out pretty much every game with a team that wasnt even theirs. I can understand ownership wanting to move the team

By that logic, shouldn't SA get an NFL team based on how well they supported the Cowboys pre-season games over the years?

The man owns the team and he can do whatever he likes, just quit displaying these owners as the victims because they are not being allowed to move to another city where they can make even more money than their current location.

[Findog]

Well thats part of the problem man, the stadium only holds like 17,000, so even if they sold out every game, they would still be down the list on the attendance records. Thats just not enough max people to be able to fit into a stadium.

Clay Bennett says the Ford Center in OKC fits his needs but KA does not. FC was built in 2002 for $90 million and it has 48 luxury suites. It seats about 20,000. KA had a $110 renovation in 1995. KA has 58 luxury suites. And in the interview that McClendon gave, he states that the team would not be as financially viable in OKC as Seattle, but it was their goal all along to bring professional sports to OKC, breaking even would just be the cherry on top.

Against the backdrop of that, Bennett is requesting the Seattle taxpayers foot a new arena for him to the tune of $500 million. I don't know what $90 million in 2002 dollars is today, but it's not $500 million. If I go into a Subway franchisee and note that they're selling a turkey sandwich for $45, does that mean I'm not hungry enough to eat if I refuse to pay that price? Bennett is asking Seattle to consent to a rape, and when they say no, he can throw up his hands and say he tried to get a new arena done, which was a legally-binding condition of the sale, that he make a good-faith effort to keep the team in Seattle. He hasn't done that.

Here you have musical chairs involving two teams (Sonics and Hornets) and three markets (OKC, Seattle and NOLA). For the life of me, I don't know why Stern wants the teams in the two worst markets. I understand OKC fans did their part by supporting the Hornets very well during their stay. Stern should either move the Hornets to Seattle and keep the team name and colors there and the "Hornets" cease to exist, while allowing Bennett and Durant to head to OKC, or he should let Bennett buy out George Shinn and keep the Hornets in OKC.

The Oklahoma City Tornadoes are going to resemble the Kings pre-Maloof brothers. They simply won't be able to retain and acquire top talent given the financial base and given that OKC can't compete with Miami, New York, LA and Chicago when it comes to intangibles. Only an owner willing to go into lux tax territory can make it work in a smaller city.

[ChumpDumper]

Against the backdrop of that, Bennett is requesting the Seattle taxpayers foot a new arena for him to the tune of $500 million. I don't know $90 million in 2002 dollars is today, but it's not $500 million.It is way cheaper to build in OKC than Seattle.
Only an owner willing to go into lux tax territory can make it work in a smaller city.Looks for "Orly" picture with Peter Holt in it.

[Findog]

Looks for "Orly" picture with Peter Holt in it.

Point taken. I'll amend that to owners willing to spend money or win the lottery when a once in a lifetime player is draft eligible.

Do you think there's a $400 million difference in property values between OKC and Seattle?

[oligarchy]

By that logic, shouldn't SA get an NFL team based on how well they supported the Cowboys pre-season games over the years?

The man owns the team and he can do whatever he likes, just quit displaying these owners as the victims because they are not being allowed to move to another city where they can make even more money than their current location.

It's not the same as showing up to EVERY home game played there, not some pre-season crap. They sold out multiple times at the arena they were playing at, and had VERY GOOD numbers during the times they didn't sell out. I think they sold out HALF of the games that were played, and those weren't even playoff games.

[ChumpDumper]

Point taken. I'll amend that to owners willing to spend money or win the lottery when a once in a lifetime player is draft eligible.Kevin Durant looks pretty good.
Do you think there's a $400 million difference in property values between OKC and Seattle?There's no way it could be the same arena design, but the land and construction cost differences between the two could be quite significant.

[duncan228]

I know Seattle is expensive, I'm not sure about OKC.

I agree with ChumpDumper, I think the difference would be significant.

[DarkReign]

Yeah, no offense, but the Spurs would only be competitive without Duncan, not dominant.

Lets see what happens when his era ends...like 8 years from now. Lucky bastards....

[sandman]

It's not the same as showing up to EVERY home game played there, not some pre-season crap. They sold out multiple times at the arena they were playing at, and had VERY GOOD numbers during the times they didn't sell out. I think they sold out HALF of the games that were played, and those weren't even playoff games.

I don't mean to put a jaded spin on it, but the people of OKC knew that they were auditioning for an NBA team, and actually thought that they would get the Hornets to relocate permanently. Give them 5 years of a mediocre team and lets see if they still have the large crowds. At least the people of Seattle have already proved they will continue to support a mediocre team. And the NBA tickets costs are a whole lot higher than the $20 max ticket price for the OKC minor league hockey team, so I don't buy the "they support the Blazers so they will support the Sonics" argument.

[oligarchy]

I don't mean to put a jaded spin on it, but the people of OKC knew that they were auditioning for an NBA team, and actually thought that they would get the Hornets to relocate permanently. Give them 5 years of a mediocre team and lets see if they still have the large crowds. At least the people of Seattle have already proved they will continue to support a mediocre team. And the NBA tickets costs are a whole lot higher than the $20 max ticket price for the OKC minor league hockey team, so I don't buy the "they support the Blazers so they will support the Sonics" argument.
Regardless, my point was more towards the Cowboys reference than aything else. San Antonio supporting the Cowboys, which you could also view as an NFL audition, isn't the same as a whole season of supporting the team. Only time will tell, and I think you could be right about them not supporting them during their lows, but who's to say they don't do as Seattle does or better?

[MajorMike]

Yawn. Deal with it. Bennett will pay the x amouint of money penalty already pre-written into the contract and move, or will possibly counter sue citing the putrid conditions and the unwillingness of the city to do... well damn near anything but complain.

[Findog]

Yawn. Deal with it. Bennett will pay the x amouint of money penalty already pre-written into the contract and move, or will possibly counter sue citing the putrid conditions and the unwillingness of the city to do... well damn near anything but complain.

I'd love to see him countersue, especially considering he didn't honor the legally binding condition of the sale, which was make a good-faith effort to keep the team in Seattle. One can hardly fault the local municipality for refusing to bend over and take it up the ass. He will probably get what he wants, but he's wrong in this case. For such a "shrewd" guy, he's alienated the community to the point where they're not interested in buying out the lease.

[ChumpDumper]

One can hardly fault the local municipality for refusing to bend over and take it up the ass.If they want an NBA team, they'll take it up the ass from somebody.
For such a "shrewd" guy, he's alienated the community to the point where they're not interested in buying out the lease.But maybe he guaranteed a new arena wouldn't be built in Seattle in time to keep the team there.

[Findog]

If they want an NBA team, they'll take it up the ass from somebody.

Well, that's the realpolitik of the situation. Considering they gave taxpayer-financed new digs to the Hawks and Mariners, I'm sure something could've been worked out in regards to the Sonics. But starting with Schultz and now Bennett, there's the old maxim that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It's a shame that Sonics fans are going to be the ultimate losers.

[z0sa]

In reply to topic:

something makes me think Durant is going to draw some attention and everyone is going to be happy again.

[MajorMike]

It's a shame that Sonics fans are going to be the ultimate losers.


Ultimately, this is true, however you can't say the fanbase hasn't had their chance. They have turned a new arena down at every opportunity.

[Findog]

Ultimately, this is true, however you can't say the fanbase hasn't had their chance. They have turned a new arena down at every opportunity.

I don't think they were wrong to do so while Schultz owned the team and was flipping the city and the fans off at every opportunity. The guy was a douchebag and was going out of his way to piss everybody off. Nobody's going to work something out with you when you won't compromise and when you're a dick at every stage of the process. He could've gone to the suburbs like Jerry Jones did, but in a fit of pique sold the team to out-of-towners looking to take the team with them. So Bennett is ultimately not the biggest villian here. It's Schultz.

[ChumpDumper]

It's just business. Schultz was going to make money either way. If he's more honest about it, big deal. Holt and company actually did the same thing in San Antonio and probably would've left had the county not given them an acceptable deal.

The Seattle metro area is going to get two CBA teams in the next couple of years. Buy your tickets now.

[ShoogarBear]

I don't know the details, but apparently the lease terms the Sonics have on the Key Arena are the worst in the league. Like I don't think they get much from sales of concessions or parking.

[MajorMike]

Argument:

Key Arena was recently renovated to industry standards and is a perfectly adequate NBA facility.

Team owners are making empty threats to line their pocketbook. Nothing has changed since the last remodel and no remodel is necessary.


Rebuttal:

In terms of amenities Key Arena ranks last in the league in terms of seating capacity, ability to generate revenue, and lease terms. Basketball is not the only problem. Limits in internal infrastructure and loading facilities make it a difficult place for concerts and other events. At this time it is not a premier building suitable for a world class city.

Key Arena was remodeled 12 years ago at a cost of approximately $75 million dollars. At the time many teams were getting new arenas at costs of well over $200 million and committing to 20- or 25-year tenancies in those buildings. It is a simple matter of getting what you pay for. In lieu of building a new arena, the team and city agreed on a short-term fix at a significantly lower cost. Both parties agreed a 15-year commitment was appropriate given the work done. Negotiations have always been conducted with that 15-year commitment in mind. If 15 years was the appropriate and agreed-upon useful life of the building then why are city leaders no longer agreeable to those terms?

At this time the City of Seattle is faced with a problem not unlike that faced by building owners everywhere. Their three largest tenants, the Sonics, Storm, and Thunderbirds all have expiring leases and are negotiating tenant improvements. If the City of Seattle is in the rental business, then city leaders should be seriously concerned that all three of their largest Key Arena customers are in unanimous agreement that the facility is inadequate. Should they lose the Sonics and Storm any new tenant will certainly require improvements in addition to rental incentives, commissions, etc. Most real estate professionals would advise that it is always better to work reasonably with an existing tenant than to search for a new one.

Quotes:

“The Key Arena is a great facility for watching professional basketball … it’s a great venue." - Seattle City Council Chair Nick Licata, Interview, KJR-AM

“The current lease with the team expires in 2010, long before we will have paid off the debt incurred when we spent $75 million refurbishing Key Arena about ten years ago, at the request of the team's previous owners. At that time, the City Council was assured the lease arrangement would be sufficient to repay the debt. Now we see otherwise especially with an expected debt of $25 million left when the current lease expires. At the very least, we don't want a repeat of such a faulty lease.” - Seattle City Councilman Richard McIver

“By funding the other two stadiums, we were in fact digging the grave for the Sonics.” - Seattle City Council Chair Nick Licata, Seattle Times, April 18, 2005

“There was a huge risk. The deal was based on a best-case scenario rather than an average scenario. It was a steamroller, and nobody wanted to think about a bad case, much less the worse case." - Former Seattle City Councilwoman Jane Noland, Seattle Times, April 18, 2005

“Successful arenas hosting NBA basketball are significantly larger than Key Arena – roughly double the square footage. For the last six new NBA-only arenas 80% of the funding was public.” - Key Arena Subcommittee Report, February 16, 2006

“It’s not a very good lease, to say the least it’s the worst in the league.” - NBA Commissioner David Stern

[ChumpDumper]

At this time the City of Seattle is faced with a problem not unlike that faced by building owners everywhere. Their three largest tenants, the Sonics, Storm, and Thunderbirds all have expiring leases and are negotiating tenant improvements.The Thunderbirds have already agreed to move to a new 6,000 seat arena in Kent, Washington -- were one of the CBA teams will play.

Seattle should just try to get some money from the Sonics in an early escape agreement. There is no way they are going to keep the team without building a new arena.

[K-State Spur]

Havent the new owners been saying all along that they wanted a new arena?
Key Arena is like 13 years old, and the owners want a new arena, I can completely understand where they are coming from. The OK city fans sold out pretty much every game with a team that wasnt even theirs. I can understand ownership wanting to move the team

Key Arena is 45 years old.

But in fairness to the Seattle fans, they just ponied up for both Safeco & Qwest Field - and are STILL paying off the Kingdome (which is half a decade past the wrecking ball).

It's unfair to fault them for holding onto their wallets this time.

[Findog]

http://www.nola.com/sports/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-32/1188108407271940.xml&coll=1&thispage=1

The solution is so obvious, it seems pretty easy to solve. Clay Bennett and George Shinn swap franchises. Either that, or Bennett and Durant go to Oklahoma City, the Hornets name and colors go there, Chris Paul and George Shinn go to Seattle, where the Sonics name and colors are waiting for them.

[ChumpDumper]

No one is going to Seattle without a new arena.

[SilverPlayer]

Give it time. Seattle would build a new arena in the next 5-8 years but, not next year. This city is going through some serious sports arena fatigue. They want to keep the team, and something might still work out, but I don't see it as even remotely possible with this owner. The guy has just proven to be a huge dick, and may have lost his only leverage to actually move the team... Two separate contracts stipulates he make a good faith effort to stay. The Key arena lease and the terms of the teams sale both demand that.

He just provided all the evidence to show he hasn't made a good faith effort. (The NBA choosing to fine him just adds to a case against him.) And frankly I don't think he will be able to move now.

[ChumpDumper]

Until the lease is up.

He can't be forced into another lease because he's a dick.

[SilverPlayer]

2010 is a lot longer than Clay is willing to wait. Seattle would build an arena by 2010, I'm very sure of it.

Here's how I see it working out. They now have all of the leverage to force the team to stay under the current lease.

Clay sells

The city restructures the lease for the new owner with a lot of concessions to tide the team over while the city builds a new arena. And an agreement is put in place to finance the new arena.

A new Arena is ready around 2010 -2012.

[ChumpDumper]

They would build an arena for him?

And meet his revenue demands?

So it's win-win for him.

[SilverPlayer]

No I think they will wait him out.

On Edit- Oh and I think this has proven one thing. Clay has no interest in owning a Seattle franchise. So if and when it becomes clear he can't move when he wants to he'll sell.

[SilverPlayer]

The word Fraud also comes to mind...I could easily see a series of injunctions against moving the team, while lengthy civil and criminal proceedings are filed against him. He's just admitted to as much by his own statements.

* A false statement of fact, known to be false at the time it was made;
* A promise of future performance made with an intent, at the time the promise was made, not to perform as promised;